Post by: dsmart on November 23, 2017, 04:25:23 AM
3.0 released to PTU (https://robertsspaceindustries.com/spectrum/community/SC/forum/1/thread/expanding-star-citizen-alpha-3-0-ptu-testing)
I just cannot believe they did this. And they went with "breaking news" too :laugh: https://twitter.com/RobertsSpaceInd/status/933573200964878336
They must be really desperate for money. NOBODY in ETF is happy that they did this. It was just not ready.
For the record, this is my Road To 3.0 (http://dereksmart.com/forums/reply/6005/) timeline. Remember back when sources told me 3.0 was horribly broken, a performance nightmare etc? Here we are.
My "Road To 3.0" timeline post has been 100% spot-on. Note the date/time I proclaimed that it was a performance nightmare, flat-out broken etc. Oh, and that it didn't actually exist back when croberts was promoting it as coming on or before Dec 19 2016.
I had also said that they simply couldn't afford to delay this into 2018. But what surprises me is that they released it now, instead of around the time of the Dec livestream. They must really be desperate.
You have to watch some of the streamers. It's incredibly bad.
https://www.twitch.tv/videos/203571771?t=04h24m48s
https://www.twitch.tv/videos/203571771?t=03h25m47s
https://www.twitch.tv/videos/203563336?t=04h04m00s
https://clips.twitch.tv/LongCredulousAirGuitarKappaWealth
https://clips.twitch.tv/FlaccidGloriousToothDancingBanana
https://clips.twitch.tv/ElatedPlainTurnipNinjaGrumpy
https://clips.twitch.tv/AcceptableArborealBottleKappa
https://clips.twitch.tv/JollyVibrantSparrowTBCheesePull
https://clips.twitch.tv/AcceptableArborealBottleKappa
https://www.twitch.tv/theastropub
https://www.twitch.tv/wtfosaurus
https://www.twitch.tv/deejayknight
Post by: dsmart on November 23, 2017, 05:19:53 AM
(https://i.imgur.com/QXbIjNH.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/G2fi8xm.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/tgp5noK.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/JkGUnIR.jpg)
Post by: dsmart on November 23, 2017, 05:35:08 AM
Something Jones 3.0 Live Blog
https://www.twitch.tv/theastropub (https://www.twitch.tv/theastropub)
The buildings to the left and right of the flight path as he lands at Levski are 2d sprites - you can see them sliding around, they aren't attached to the ground. Shadows are baked on. It's quite obvious. e: if someone can grab this that'd be amazing, it's a live stream and I don't know what I'm doing.
So the seamless planetary landing is:
1: You fly to a waypoint in orbit
2: You fly down to the waypoint on the ground
It's a pre-determined flight path.
The travel between planetary bodies is pre-determined as well.
Performance-wise it is running like utter piss, it's really bad.
Mocap NPC at Levski, his hands clip through his body as he emotes, that's allegedly the problem with all of the SQ42 mocap
Single digit frames inside Levski base everywhere
BPM monitor on HUD and Mobiglass don't match
"This game is early access, if you aren't interested in early access it ain't for you"
11-14 fps in Levski pretty much consistently
Background music stuttering badly, .5s gaps of silence in the bg music
"50 players per server now, this has also decreased the fps"
Miles Eckhart NPC not working, wasn't able to interact, "there's really no point in going to Levski right now, you can't do missions right now"
PLAYER TWO HAS ENTERED!
Another player has arrived at Levski, let's see how this works. They arrange to meet at the 14fps statue...
Music is stuttering and skipping with a vengeance now
PLAYER 1 is waiting at the bar, PLAYER 2 is coming down the stairs now...
"Can I live with 15fps? No of course I can't live with 15fps"
PLAYER 3 on chat "It's just crashed on me, I'm gonna leave it there"
PLAYER 2 "It's so laggy it's hard to tell what the fuck I'm looking at"
PLAYER 2 arrives at bar, PLAYER 1 can't see him
PLAYER 2 on voice chat "Scam! Get a refund!"
PLAYER 2 is trying to interact with Miles Eckhart, PLAYER 1 can see Eckhart interacting but can't see PLAYER 2
Aaaaaand PLAYER 1 exits the game
- end of live blog thanks for listening get a refund -
I don't think there's anything stopping a player from moving off the pre-determined path, but it sort of railroads you by the quantum jump taking you to point A which is a point above the surface. Now when you select Levski as your target you are pointed toward a waypoint at point B which is Levski base itself.
So if you fly down toward POINT B represented by a reticule in your HUD and this takes you down a 30 degree slope toward the base. As you descend you will see mountain ranges to the left and right and Levski base in the distance in the middle. Dotted along those mountain ranges are towers and buildings which are 2d sprites. Only when you arrive at Levski do you see actual 3d buildings.
Towers and buildings are placed along the route laid out by the waypoints. The game is expecting you to follow the waypoints.
If the player is able to quantum jump to any point they choose then they could fly their own path but I didn't realise you could do that. I thought you selected a point and jumped to it, and the way they've laid out all these little wobbly sprites along the route makes it look that they're expecting you to do just that.
Post by: dsmart on November 23, 2017, 05:52:39 AM
Post by: N0mad on November 23, 2017, 07:34:58 AM
Perhaps they really need to get the "MVP" out now so people can't sue them when they run out of money after the Anniversary sale?
Post by: -fatcat- on November 23, 2017, 07:48:00 AM
Post by: -fatcat- on November 23, 2017, 07:57:43 AM
Post by: dsmart on November 23, 2017, 10:57:41 AM
(https://i.imgur.com/XeOlJ8T.png)
Post by: dsmart on November 23, 2017, 11:12:11 AM
Post by: randomness on November 23, 2017, 11:17:00 AM
Wasn't the whole point of the avocados to help them bugfix the game to a "playable" state to enhance popular perception?
With the ever escalating wave of salt and FUD, they decided to cut their losses and release the 3.0 as is when they realized the scope of the bugfixing. That and the big ship sale being tomorrow.
I'm guessing they hope they can stall it out until after the sale.
From what I see on twitch streams, it runs worse than their last version.
I'm guessing once people settle down , you'll see the inevitable thread on reddit:
Quote
"So what the :nws: was the purpose of the Evocati and the NDA if this is still a barely playable piece of :nws: ???!!!!"
I dunno man. I was considering getting an Aurora when this comes out , but this is pretty wretched . Guess it's back to Subnautica.
Post by: N0mad on November 23, 2017, 11:24:29 AM
At the end of the day it's all about how much backer money ends up in Chris's wallet.
Post by: Motto on November 23, 2017, 12:47:47 PM
The fact that they are willing to take this risc probably means they don't have a choice. This will be the final act in the ELE
Post by: jcrg99 on November 23, 2017, 02:26:46 PM
But what surprises me is that they released it now, instead of around the time of the Dec livestream. They must really be desperate.
Obvious reason. It's their entire week of ship sales which starts tomorrow, with Black Friday. A lot of people waits this moment to spend money. They have limited number of actual supporters and they don't want to miss their money to others.
It's a good play to release for "some" people, to motivate people to subscribe and to give people that won't have access the feeling of "around the corner", hopefully convincing some of them to spend money in these ship sales this week.
As the people with access are usuallly big supporters, the trend too is they get a lot of them doing edited propaganda to help them this week too.
It was clearly a marketing decision above of a development decision. And clearly that was made THIS week. Just look how they were saying that had hundreds of bugs last week and now are saying that have cleared "enough" bugs to release to PTU but not saying how many (see latest AtV when the guy mention this at the end of that show).
Additionally, I am sure they preferred to release this now to boost these sales, since they probably are considering to release a Squadron 42 trailer or related material in the end of the year, and possibly, releasing 3.0 to everyone (regardless stability) to motivate people who already bought into this and are delusional to spend more.
Of course, all this won't prevent their eventual colapse, but they know that for a while already and are just trying to maximize their personal profit before that happens, and of course, trying their best to keep the show for longer even been just for a very tiny audience.
Post by: Motto on November 23, 2017, 03:31:18 PM
Post by: N0mad on November 23, 2017, 04:21:38 PM
Just been watching Sgt Gamble (https://www.twitch.tv/sgt_gamble) try to land at a mission site in a Prospector. He's been at it for about 5 minutes, every time he lands and tries to power down the ship janks around, flies backwards and he can't do anything.
He's given up now and flown off :laugh:
Post by: dsmart on November 23, 2017, 04:32:46 PM
https://clips.twitch.tv/IgnorantTastyRaccoonKAPOW
https://clips.twitch.tv/ImportantHonestChinchillaTriHard
Exit? Right. Ship falls through into space and outside the level
https://www.twitch.tv/videos/203592426?t=02h41m00s
https://www.twitch.tv/videos/203592426?t=02h43m20s
(https://i.imgur.com/Y3tszOq.jpg)
Post by: dsmart on November 23, 2017, 04:36:29 PM
My best guess is that they are so strapped for cash at the moment that they didn't have a choice anymore. Release 3.0 to the backers to show that progress is being made in the hopes that the shit it is doesn't weigh up to the hype so people will buy more jpegs in the sale.
The fact that they are willing to take this risc probably means they don't have a choice. This will be the final act in the ELE
I was expecting them to do this, but in Dec. So the fact that they have a week long sale now, just screams desperation.
Meanwhile, I like how Shitizens are all like "Derek Smart said 3.0 didn't exist! Here it is!" when in fact I said that over a year ago, documented the entire 3.0 shit-show (see link in my OP) etc. And almost a year later, just like 2.0 and Star Marine before it, they release it prematurely with zero gameplay loop, nothing to do etc because they need the money. They're so starved for content, croberts should shit in a bag and send it to them, and they would be OK with it.
If any proof was needed to show that the project is FUBAR, they just released it.
Another example of how they are fleecing their backers (https://robertsspaceindustries.com/spectrum/community/SC/forum/1/thread/expanding-star-citizen-alpha-3-0-ptu-testing). See how subscribers are ahead of concierge in the release schedule? They already have the concierge money. So they want those and others to pay monthly subscription in order to gain access to a game THEY ALREADY PAID FOR!
Post by: Motto on November 23, 2017, 04:46:42 PM
Some features.... :lol:
Post by: dsmart on November 23, 2017, 07:19:52 PM
Post by: dsmart on November 23, 2017, 07:22:09 PM
Post by: dsmart on November 23, 2017, 07:34:46 PM
(https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/362664170254106624/383436009397944330/unknown.png)
UPDATE: The audio files (https://clyp.it/uzok35cm)
Dialog transcript
Quote
SOMEONE, PRESUMABLY THE CROBBLER: Action!
QUINT: Hello and welcome to another edition of Showdown. I am your host, Eria Quint. Senator Kyle Polo stunned the Empire by withdrawing his bill for increased military cutbacks for senate consideration and will reintroduce the bill for public referendum. The move has sent shockwaves through the Empire. My guests come at the issue from two very different perspectives. My first guest is the host of the controversial opinion show Plain Truth. Please welcome Parker Tyrell.
TYRELL: Great to be here, [hell-ha-lah?]
QUINT: My second guest is decorated naval combat pilot, and current flight leader of the legendary Squadron 42: Commander Ryan Enright.
ENRIGHT: [bored, disinterested, sleepy?] Hi. Thanks for having me. Mister Tyrell.
QUINT: Commander, how has the... navy responded to this... development?
ENRIGHT: [as above] High Command has taken this very seriously. They understand the public, and Senator Polo's frustration. So, to defuse the situation and eliminate the need for the initiative, they have introduced a top-down mandate for all departments to quantify and justify their spending habits. Now, I know that people like Mister Tyrell have become critical of the UEE and and are hesitant to accept that there' is any--
TYRELL: [interrupting] First, I just want to clear up a big misconception here. I don't hate the UEE, I don't. What I am, eh, ah, critical of, as you say is this sea of lies in which we seem to be drowning. Sorry, is something funny here?
ENRIGHT: Sorry, you're just doing your, eh... [sounds like he's choking on his own saliva]
TYRELL: ...what?
ENRIGHT: I enjoy your show, sorry, carry on.
TYRELL: You enjoy my show? Thank you very much. That's a delight to know that Squadron 42 is tuning in. Ehm, the Polo Initiative is in the right direction. To me, the idea that we can finally force the military to end the rampant corruption and unchecked spending that, unfortunately, has become its defining characteristic is very, very welcome.
ENRIGHT: I don't think that's entirely fair. There's a very real danger here exposing potentially sensitive ops...
TYRELL: Right, okay, yeah. Sensitive... or illegal?
ENRIGHT: ...what?
TYRELL: Thank you. That look right there, there it is. That's the issue -- you gave it away. If High Command is so terrified to let elected officials look behind the curtain then there's clearly something going on that they'd rather keep quiet. So! To me, the Polo Initiative is not just about money, it's about accountability. It's about ascribing consequence to your actions. It's about letting the people know what you're really up to.
ENRIGHT: I understand, Mr Tyrell, but looking at line items in a budget and the reality of the situation? Are two very different things.
TYRELL: Oh, right, because a simple civilian couldn't understand the MASSIVE EPIC COMPLEXITY [Enright snorts] of what the military does!
ENRIGHT: That's not what I said.
TYRELL: I might be a simple commoner to you but fifty million credits? For a new type of rivet? That sounds to me ridiculous.
QUINT: You are referring to the leaked comm exchange alledging that naval RnD attempted to develop a new proprietal rivet--
TYRELL: It's not alleged.
QUINT: --for, for their ships.
TYRELL: Yes, it's true. It's not just a a-ah-ah-uh an accusation. It's absolutely fact.
QUINT: Commander?
ENRIGHT: I'm a pilot. I don't deal in rivets.
TYRELL: Right, okay, fair enough. But will you then concede that High Command must be held to the same fiscal accountability as the other branches?
ENRIGHT: Well, no.
TYRELL: Right, okay then, it's holding the Empire hostage. These are the same kinds of tactics that Iver Messer pulled before he seized--
ENRIGHT: Woah, woah, woah. How did we get to Messer?
TYRELL: Yeah, because I see a military content to spend billions of credits on RIVETS! And new lasers! When there are people on Ferrun who haven't got enough to eat, who can't get food on their plate! I don't think that's a crazy comparison.
ENRIGHT: I get it.
TYRELL: It's easy to run away with it--
ENRIGHT: [thumping the table? shouting] NO! Stop. You need to understand that a ten percent budget cut is not as simple as you think. It means less patrols, and that means less security. As soon as the Vanduul and the criminals realise this... they will... exploit it.
TYRELL: Here we go, Eria. I was wondering how long he would take to get to this argument. This is the classic military smokescreen they have been using for centuries! It won't work! Vanduul attacks are down! Some scholars even believe that the pattern of attacks might indicate a cessation of hostilities altogether.
ENRIGHT: You're talking about Harbinger's study?
TYRELL: Yep.
ENRIGHT: He's wrong. Vanduul inactivity is not a sign of victory. They hit us on their terms, not ours. They have dictated the pace of this conflict. [pause] They won't stop because we haven't forced them to. [pause] They don't see us... as a threat.
TYRELL: So what do you suggest? Keep the status quo, starve our populace, so we can wipe out an alien species?
ENRIGHT: No to the first two. Yes to the third.
[long pause]
TYRELL: You want to exterminate them?
ENRIGHT: Absolutely.
[another long pause]
TYRELL: Is it too late to start the Messer comparisons now?
ENRIGHT: Says the man who makes a living manipulating the public.
TYRELL: Hey, I do not manipulate anyone--
QUINT: We- we-
TYRELL: --All I do is tell the plain truth and if you don't--
QUINT --need to take a quick break--
TYRELL: --like hearing it then that might be a problem with--
QUINT: --when we come back, we'll be getting, uh, we'll be getting our guests through the rapid fire round and getting their opinions on all the hot topics of the week. All that, and more, on Showdown.
SOMEONE, PRESUMABLY CROBBLER: And cut!
Post by: premiumnugz on November 23, 2017, 08:37:05 PM
So someone broke the encryption on Star Citizen data files and leaked them.
What do they tell us? Any juicy revelations? :cop:
Post by: Motto on November 24, 2017, 03:46:24 AM
Post by: dsmart on November 24, 2017, 05:31:55 AM
https://www.twitch.tv/videos/203688567
Also, I added a link to the leaked audio files in my SQ42 post above.
Post by: dsmart on November 24, 2017, 06:01:28 AM
https://clips.twitch.tv/OnerousPlainDelicataStrawBeary
https://clips.twitch.tv/ProductivePiliableMetalUncleNox
....and
https://clips.twitch.tv/CharmingCovertHyenaStoneLightning
https://clips.twitch.tv/AdorableFurtiveLobsterSeemsGood
Post by: dsmart on November 24, 2017, 06:11:03 AM
He is claiming to have been running this at 4K on a 16GB i7 5820K, with a 980-ti on an SSD drive. Yeah. OK.
Offline
Zero gameplay
Basically an E3 type presentation of glitz
#notagame
Code: [Select]
- 04:30 Player starts walking around the station and heads to the landing pad
- 11:30 Player onboard their ship about to take off
- 13:00 Low flight over space station
- 15:00 First quantum drive jump
- 19:00 First planetary approach for some rocky and sandy landscapes sightseeing
- 27:00 Low level canyon flying leading to the first landing
Post by: N0mad on November 24, 2017, 08:59:21 AM
FF to 3:36:00 and watch. Also, the comments are hilarious. :laugh:
https://www.twitch.tv/videos/203688567
Also, I added a link to the leaked audio files in my SQ42 post above.
It's hilarious. That's the second time I've seen someone trying to land their ship, have their ship glitch and get stuck. So this is both game breaking and common. Which begs the question, how come it's not fixed after a year in development? It might be that their custom physics system and the ship interactions with it are so insanely complex that short of wiping the code and starting again, they can't fix it. That probably goes for all the physics bugs. They may be able to do some quick and dirty fixes for certain situations but the physics engine, to my eyes, looks irretrievably broken.
Post by: randomness on November 24, 2017, 10:48:22 AM
At this point, the only people that will end up supporting this game will be the hardcore fans with tons of cash sunk into the game, or people with 40 dollar packages who resigned themselves with the money as a failed gamble.
I'm pretty sure all the rational folks will have made up their mind till January, and there's not really anyone left to convince to one side or the other. You're either already hardcore dedicated to the game, and no amount of broken promises or broken patches will sway you to abandon it, or this game is a dud and CIG will never make it work.
Unless that sq 42 presentation in December is mindblowing :lol: , this patch will pretty much make sure there are no more people left on the fence.
Post by: dsmart on November 24, 2017, 10:53:40 AM
Post by: dsmart on November 24, 2017, 02:24:21 PM
Post by: dsmart on November 24, 2017, 05:01:33 PM
https://clips.twitch.tv/HeartlessEntertainingTarsierPhilosoraptor
https://clips.twitch.tv/AggressiveRelentlessDragonflyTBTacoRight
https://clips.twitch.tv/FairBlushingYogurtYee
Post by: Spunky Munkee on November 24, 2017, 07:07:55 PM
CIG a Confederacy of Dunces.
Post by: Kyrt on November 25, 2017, 12:27:49 AM
ROTFLMAO!!
It's funny, no question
But what do you expect from what is essentially a pre-Alpha state and a year away - at least - from a proper Alpha build?
The real issues at heart are not that a pre-Alpha is buggy...
They are
1: Why has it taken so long to get here? If this was a year into the project - even two or three - we'd be amazed. But it isn't one or two or even three; it is six going on seven.
2: Why are they bothering to polish a preAlpha? Given the expected changes that are likely to take place as the game moves through the Alpha and Beta stages, a lot of this work is going to have to be either thrown away or reworked to some degree. I realise that they are doing it for marketing and PR purposes, but from a game development pov, this is a misallocation of resources that could be better spent on other areas of the game that need work - such as the engine or netcode.
3: Speaking of which, why are they bothering to do any of this given they don't have netcode for an MMO (no, CEs multiplayer netcode isn't viable), apparently haven't even started development of server meshing (another critical technology which would be better implemented from the ground up rather than tacked on), and other aspects of the engine aren't stable or working correctly, as certain recent videos have shown, including the games physics engine.
4: All of which, and more, points (IMO anyway) to either managerial incompetence at the higher levels, or a set of priorities in which actual game development is far down the list or both
I still think CIG will still release a game in about three years. I don't think it'll be the game a lot of people are expecting.
Or rather, I think it'll go into Beta and stay there for quite a while. (The old "We promised 100 systems on launch (second release) so having 5 during Beta (first release) is acceptable" ploy
Post by: N0mad on November 25, 2017, 02:39:59 AM
Post by: nightfire on November 25, 2017, 03:33:08 AM
Then, when the backers keep failing to do the simplest task, they'll become frustrated - the guide (https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/comments/7fdjoo/the_definitive_star_citizen_30_bug_survival_guide/)about how to get around the bugs has now been upvoted in Reddit.
The only sensible recommendation in there has been downvoted into oblivion :laugh:
Post by: dsmart on November 25, 2017, 04:50:21 AM
Post by: Spunky Munkee on November 25, 2017, 05:12:20 AM
Because this IS the game. There will be no revisions. They will try and work out the bugs and fail for the most part but this is the game hiding behind the alpha badge. If the backers knew this was it they wouldn't be happy but they would still defend their baby.
Post by: N0mad on November 25, 2017, 06:38:58 AM
Quote
PSA: This is NOT 3.0
Submitted 2 hours ago by Calingh
Some of you folks are missing the entire point of PTU. It is to test. If you are not actively using the issue council to report any and all bugs, then you shouldn't be in the game until 3.0 goes live. Please for the love of Dread Pirate Roberts, be an alpha tester. The more work we put into the issue council, the quicker we can all get this thing pushed to live for everyone else. <3
Do they really think that CIG (and their professional QA testers) don't know about all these bugs already !?
Do they really think even half the issues will be fixed before it goes "live" ?
The replies are pretty good - clearly the fanatics are not impressed.
Post by: Motto on November 25, 2017, 07:02:25 AM
And all those WKCFs are going bezirk 'cos 3.0 is here but they neglect to mention that this 3.0 has been stripped of almost everything it was supposed to have in the first place. It's like "look, I'll deliver a car" and then one year later "here, there's a wheel". And everybody starts cheering and patting eachother on the back and shouting "See, we knew he could do it! There's the frikkin' car he promised us!'
Idiots! I wonder how long CIG will actually make it. What else is there left to sell in the upcoming next months? If there isn't enough to show for about SQ42 next month, CIG will be running on fumes I expect.
Post by: randomness on November 25, 2017, 09:25:18 AM
-It's no longer an alpha, it's now a PRE-alpha. Is that a thing? We're now going backwards?
-The built was released so you could test it, get it cause PTU ? Ok, but why did they release a build intended for larger-scope testing with so many show-stopper issues?
Yeah, remember those? That "must-fix" list till it exits evocati? Some of those are show-stoppers. As in : "I can't test the MobiGlass's functionality since opening the MobiGlass crashes my game".
That's a showstopper. You can't TEST because a bug is preventing you from even running the rest of your testing procedure.
When you release a product for testing, you have to get rid of the bugs that prevent testing to begin with.
If I give you a toaster to test, to see how much it burns the bread, and my toaster explodes the second you plug it in, burning the bread is the least of my concern.
Post by: N0mad on November 25, 2017, 10:30:13 AM
Quote
Alpha is the stage when key gameplay functionality is implemented, and assets are partially finished. A game in alpha is feature complete, that is, game is playable and contains all the major features.So SC is definitely NOT alpha.
Secondly, you raise an interesting point. SC must be the only game in history which requires a large number of people to do testing. No other game I can think of requires buyers to "test" an "early access" incomplete version of the game riddled with frequent, game breaking bugs. But then again, this is the new "open development" method of making games. Odd that nobody else does it this way.
Post by: randomness on November 25, 2017, 11:01:30 AM
-You hold back release of your "pre-alpha" to polish it (ok, you're polishing an alpha build...... ). You're doing this to prevent the goons from tarnishing your product 's precious reputation . But this builds salt in your community , who finds it pointless. (but of course they don't matter, it's the larger gaming press calling your game a broken mess that's hurting you).
-You add YET ANOTHER LAYER of early access to your early access , AND you make those people sign an NDA (again to protect your product's reputation).This results in more salt, as the community is further segregated.
-After all of that, you go against said early-early-early access tester's feedback and release the buggy mess to the larger public anyway , under the term "stress testing", thus making the first two points completely useless.
-Now your product's reputation is destroyed anyway. AND it's tarnished even further since you were supposedly polishing it. AND the mountain of salt from the evocati-segregation phase remains. AAAAAND you didn't even succeed at your original goal of polishing the product.
At this point, you could ignore THE ENTIRE history of Star Citizen, and just on this one thing alone, you could have enough of a basis to abandon this project because it's one of three cases, and all look pretty bad:
-the high ups are hopelessly incompetent and the project is being managed into the ground by flip-flopping, undecided buffoons.
-they're trying to make a last ditch effort for your money , and their entire testing procedure can by bypassed by one greedy flick of a switch. (like those evil publishers)
-they're contemptuous of you, and the entire shtick was a marketing strategy to build hype around their product based on the old "limited availability " scheme. Like those ships that are "on sale" now, or those 850 pioneers, etc.
Even if these guys were genius developers, and were managed by , I dunno, Peter Molyneux with a non-promising, non-lying chip implanted in his brain, you could still handily justify calling this entire thing a dud based on the extreme level of incompetence demonstrated by their marketing. Forget the gamescom fiasco, this is the new shit.
Post by: dsmart on November 25, 2017, 02:25:19 PM
https://gfycat.com/DaringBoldFlounder
https://www.twitch.tv/videos/204140230?t=03h00m00s
Post by: Star Chip on November 25, 2017, 03:29:21 PM
Post by: dsmart on November 26, 2017, 02:27:09 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=698&v=IILcpHKIQe4
Post by: dsmart on November 27, 2017, 06:35:15 AM
https://clips.twitch.tv/PunchyObeseSamosaUWot
https://clips.twitch.tv/SuspiciousTriumphantAubergineGivePLZ
Post by: Motto on November 27, 2017, 06:42:05 AM
Post by: Greggy_D on November 27, 2017, 07:36:55 AM
Post by: David-2 on November 27, 2017, 10:38:00 AM
Anyway, they could rename it to Star Hilarity and release it as is. People enjoy "construction" games and would have loads of fun making video clips like this. You might say it's not what the backers backed - but that spaceship has sailed. You might say that $167M/6yrs was too expensive for this - but that's money under the bridge.
When life give you lemons - or, CRoberts, if you are a lemon - make lemonade!
Post by: FredBloggs on November 27, 2017, 11:43:47 AM
Dat epic burn :supaburn: :supaburn: :supaburn:
Post by: David-2 on November 27, 2017, 11:57:32 AM
Post by: dsmart on November 27, 2017, 11:59:55 AM
Dat epic burn :supaburn: :supaburn: :supaburn:
Whatever it is he's going on about now, I don't care. He was a Shitizen through and through. Just because he got a refund (partial) and is now critical of the project, doesn't change that. In fact, he's a perfect example of what we're going to be dealing with before long when this whole thing finally crashes (it's coming sooner than they think).
Post by: FredBloggs on November 27, 2017, 12:00:33 PM
Post by: David-2 on November 27, 2017, 12:01:31 PM
Post by: Motto on November 27, 2017, 12:24:35 PM
Post by: randomness on November 27, 2017, 02:27:04 PM
Which involved using CheatEngine, AAAND breaking the terms of service, AAAAND bypasses the point of you "stress testing" the servers. People don't even care :3:
People are willing to give up the ONLINE aspect of this MM fcking O just to play it.
That's hilarious for me. Apparently this was happening since the last major patch?
This proves my own point about making a "test build" that lacks basic fucking functionality:
So from what I'm seeing the narrative has changed some what :
-It's no longer an alpha, it's now a PRE-alpha. Is that a thing? We're now going backwards?
-The built was released so you could test it, get it cause PTU ? Ok, but why did they release a build intended for larger-scope testing with so many show-stopper issues?
Yeah, remember those? That "must-fix" list till it exits evocati? Some of those are show-stoppers. As in : "I can't test the MobiGlass's functionality since opening the MobiGlass crashes my game".
That's a showstopper. You can't TEST because a bug is preventing you from even running the rest of your testing procedure.
When you release a product for testing, you have to get rid of the bugs that prevent testing to begin with.
If I give you a toaster to test, to see how much it burns the bread, and my toaster explodes the second you plug it in, burning the bread is the least of my concern.
People will just ignore the testing and do their own thing, or worse, submit thousand of "it doesn't fucking work" bug reports..... :) :) :)
Another thing I just recently noticed now that I can see the game in "cinematic" thirty frames, is that the planets look like shit. They did NOT exceed No Man's Sky in any way ,shape or form. There's still extremely visible pop-in as you descend, there 's a ton of glitchiness when the rendering switches from low-poly to high-poly. Fuck, at least No Man's Sky tried to "stream" objects in from blurry outlines. So what's the point of planet landing? It's an obvious break from their "fidelity" style.
Honestly, this patch looks dead on arrival. Twitch is averaging about 200 viewers. On youtube it's either the major shills or the 4k 30 FPS cinematic guy (the x guy, I can't be assed to look up his name). Considering this is the JESUS patch , it's not looking good. Guess we'll see when they release to PU.
EDIT: Also , NOBODY gives a fuck about FailureToReport. The cultists rejected him long time ago . I watched his twitch stream of PTU, and the guy was like "lol wtf this is broken!" Yeah no shit asshole, what did you expect?
What I learned from all of this is apparently people cream their pants over high polycount ships with functional interiors . I mean, I'll admit, that new mining ship (in a game with no mining) looks and sounds legitimately good. An actual game company not run by a clown should really do "gta 5 in space" with HD ships like those, I know I'd buy it retail.
Post by: dsmart on November 27, 2017, 03:08:36 PM
EDIT: Also , NOBODY gives a fuck about FailureToReport. The cultists rejected him long time ago . I watched his twitch stream of PTU, and the guy was like "lol wtf this is broken!" Yeah no shit asshole, what did you expect?
:lol::lol::lol:
Yeah, that's wot I said. :laugh:
Post by: dsmart on November 27, 2017, 04:17:37 PM
Post by: krylite on November 27, 2017, 05:02:05 PM
Dat epic burn :supaburn: :supaburn: :supaburn:
Whatever it is he's going on about now, I don't care. He was a Shitizen through and through. Just because he got a refund (partial) and is now critical of the project, doesn't change that. In fact, he's a perfect example of what we're going to be dealing with before long when this whole thing finally crashes (it's coming sooner than they think).
Yep, I skipped ahead once from the start and knew it was ED straight away from the lamplights. FailureTaRd thinks he's so clever with a 20 min shitty diatribe video dissing ED, wow, what a sore doubletalking crybaby loser. Lol, he couldn't even get the ship right, the 600i was SC's rip of the cutter, ED's premiere luxury craft, not the clipper. The idiot seemingly never could get, nor had a friend or contact with a cutter. So much for being a bigshot streamer :shittypop: And no show of the fighters launching from the bay, nor a CZ with anacondas and corvettes and dozens of ships in combat plus capital class ships, nor thargoids or their abandoned bases, magnificent real procedural canyons and mountains, ringed planets and other great vistas, but no, he just purposefully shows select generic views when you could be anywhere in the ED galaxy. There is so much more to see such as in Obsidian Ant's and others' ED stream videos. You need to fly out the ship and go see them as it's a real space sim with locational persistence , duh, unlike the SC techdemo level ponzi mess. He's done his lousy ED streamed videos before while saying he was betting on SC over ED :laugh: When the ELE finally comes, he'll be so far backed into his hypocritical hole into obscurity. :wave:
Post by: Resin on November 28, 2017, 03:51:44 AM
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
Post by: dsmart on November 28, 2017, 04:41:17 AM
Dat epic burn :supaburn: :supaburn: :supaburn:Whatever it is he's going on about now, I don't care. He was a Shitizen through and through. Just because he got a refund (partial) and is now critical of the project, doesn't change that. In fact, he's a perfect example of what we're going to be dealing with before long when this whole thing finally crashes (it's coming sooner than they think).
Yep, I skipped ahead once from the start and knew it was ED straight away from the lamplights. FailureTaRd thinks he's so clever with a 20 min shitty diatribe video dissing ED, wow, what a sore doubletalking crybaby loser. Lol, he couldn't even get the ship right, the 600i was SC's rip of the cutter, ED's premiere luxury craft, not the clipper. The idiot seemingly never could get, nor had a friend or contact with a cutter. So much for being a bigshot streamer :shittypop: And no show of the fighters launching from the bay, nor a CZ with anacondas and corvettes and dozens of ships in combat plus capital class ships, nor thargoids or their abandoned bases, magnificent real procedural canyons and mountains, ringed planets and other great vistas, but no, he just purposefully shows select generic views when you could be anywhere in the ED galaxy. There is so much more to see such as in Obsidian Ant's and others' ED stream videos. You need to fly out the ship and go see them as it's a real space sim with locational persistence , duh, unlike the SC techdemo level ponzi mess. He's done his lousy ED streamed videos before while saying he was betting on SC over ED :laugh: When the ELE finally comes, he'll be so far backed into his hypocritical hole into obscurity. :wave:
He's a Shitizen through and through. So this doesn't surprise me at all.
Post by: nightfire on November 28, 2017, 06:20:14 AM
Quote
You need to realise how big and ambitious this game is. Of course it isn’t going to b perfect yet!
Quote
you do realize this ain't your regular game with a skybox and a map. The team of CIG have to literally build a universe, that something that's never been done before. And still implement game mechanics, that also have never been implemented before. And also the fedility and scale is something out of the ordinary. This game can be seen as a new generation of games, cause they're busy implementing real world mechanics scaled down for the verse. The planets will have cycles, environments weather all those things that have never been implemented at the same time in a game.
Quote
1. CIG only had about a dozen people in 2012. They didn't begin development in earnest until 2014, when they hired more manpower.
2. Even if Star Citizen has been 5 years into development... that's not a lot of time for a game of this scope. Hell, Elder Scrolls Online was in development for 7 years, and it didn't have nearly this much ambition.
3. How is this an "embarassing result?" Seamless space to ground transitions, with infinite draw distance and zero loading screens? Interior physics grids that let you walk aroubd the ship in flight? Diagetic UI that's actually projected onto your character's helmet? All with a graphical fidelity that puts nearly any other AAA game to shame.
Sure, there are some animation bugs and frame issues, but no one claimed this game was finished. Personally, I'm pretty damned satisfied with the progress here.
To all those who think that backers have learned something over the past year(s): no, they still stick to their old rusty narratives like superglue.
I especially like how the new counter-argument for the „5 years in development“ is that they only had few people in the early years, therefore that period doesn’t count :vince:
Post by: the_wolfmann on November 28, 2017, 08:05:27 AM
How was he dissing ED?
I was wondering that as well. I skimmed through the video (audio only at first) and having not played ED I thought he was being serious about the whole 180 degree turnaround. Then I read comments here saying it was actually ED being played and then the whole video seemed to reek with sarcasm towards CIG's progress. Unless the dissing of ED is that it's being sarcastically compared to Crap Shitizen?
I for one find it good if he's finally seen the truth behind the lies. More people need to get awoken so that this shitshow finally rests in peace.
Post by: Meowz on November 28, 2017, 08:38:28 AM
How was he dissing ED?
I was wondering that as well. I skimmed through the video (audio only at first) and having not played ED I thought he was being serious about the whole 180 degree turnaround. Then I read comments here saying it was actually ED being played and then the whole video seemed to reek with sarcasm towards CIG's progress. Unless the dissing of ED is that it's being sarcastically compared to Crap Shitizen?
I for one find it good if he's finally seen the truth behind the lies. More people need to get awoken so that this shitshow finally rests in peace.
He wasn't dissing ED. The entire video is satire and mockery of CIG. DS, I know you don't like him, but hey the enemy of my enemy is my friend right? lol I still find his videos entertaining.
Post by: Resin on November 28, 2017, 09:08:26 AM
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
Post by: Flashwit on November 28, 2017, 10:13:12 AM
Over there on YT, in the comment section of some guy’s 3.0 PTU bugfest celebration video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h8Q0gkHblFo):QuoteYou need to realise how big and ambitious this game is. Of course it isn’t going to b perfect yet!Quoteyou do realize this ain't your regular game with a skybox and a map. The team of CIG have to literally build a universe, that something that's never been done before. And still implement game mechanics, that also have never been implemented before. And also the fedility and scale is something out of the ordinary. This game can be seen as a new generation of games, cause they're busy implementing real world mechanics scaled down for the verse. The planets will have cycles, environments weather all those things that have never been implemented at the same time in a game.Quote1. CIG only had about a dozen people in 2012. They didn't begin development in earnest until 2014, when they hired more manpower.
2. Even if Star Citizen has been 5 years into development... that's not a lot of time for a game of this scope. Hell, Elder Scrolls Online was in development for 7 years, and it didn't have nearly this much ambition.
3. How is this an "embarassing result?" Seamless space to ground transitions, with infinite draw distance and zero loading screens? Interior physics grids that let you walk aroubd the ship in flight? Diagetic UI that's actually projected onto your character's helmet? All with a graphical fidelity that puts nearly any other AAA game to shame.
Sure, there are some animation bugs and frame issues, but no one claimed this game was finished. Personally, I'm pretty damned satisfied with the progress here.
To all those who think that backers have learned something over the past year(s): no, they still stick to their old rusty narratives like superglue.
I especially like how the new counter-argument for the „5 years in development“ is that they only had few people in the early years, therefore that period doesn’t count :vince:
Man, I'll be happy if I never have to see the words 'fidelity' or 'diegetic' again. Star Citizen introduced this shit to the fanboy lexicon and now it gets vomited up every time a defense needs to be presented. A word scramble is not a compelling argument for anything.
Post by: krylite on November 28, 2017, 11:12:59 AM
Quote
you do realize this ain't your regular game with a skybox and a map. The team of CIG have to literally build a universe, that something that's never been done before. And still implement game mechanics, that also have never been implemented before. And also the fedility and scale is something out of the ordinary. This game can be seen as a new generation of games, cause they're busy implementing real world mechanics scaled down for the verse. The planets will have cycles, environments weather all those things that have never been implemented at the same time in a game.
Most of this deluded quote either ignores or pretends ED hasn't already done it first already. ED built a galaxy of hundreds of billions of unqiue star systems each of them visitable. The skybox is dynamic depending on where your location is in the galaxy and based on theories of individual stars' astronomical luminosities. You can travel to the Sol system to see the constellations of the dynamic skybox. ED has set the bar for real world astro-mechanics in a playable game world sim of the entire galaxy. (and so did Elite 2&3 in the 90's to a smaller extent) No weather or atmospheres yet, but orbits and planetary rotations are all worked out already and move in real time. Well the thargoid bases have a degree of moisture on the grounds around the structures. The scale of ED is nothing but extra-ordinary and there is no other game like it while it's been posted here before that SC composes of about 2.5 systems out of a clusterfugt of 4.
Post by: dsmart on November 28, 2017, 03:15:40 PM
DS, I know you don't like him, but hey the enemy of my enemy is my friend right? lol I still find his videos entertaining.
After his meltdown, and the fact that he has me on mod block on his channel, I have no reason to go there - or to watch any of it.
Post by: dsmart on November 28, 2017, 03:34:43 PM
Post by: dsmart on November 28, 2017, 03:41:40 PM
Post by: Star Chip on November 29, 2017, 12:07:54 AM
Post by: lurker_404 on November 29, 2017, 12:11:18 PM
https://robertsspaceindustries.com/pledge/Add-Ons/Game-Universe-Map (https://robertsspaceindustries.com/pledge/Add-Ons/Game-Universe-Map)
Post by: Aya Reiko on November 29, 2017, 12:18:36 PM
LOL ! Want to buy the Starmap? Only 6$Wow... just... wow.
https://robertsspaceindustries.com/pledge/Add-Ons/Game-Universe-Map (https://robertsspaceindustries.com/pledge/Add-Ons/Game-Universe-Map)
A Star map for a game that probably never come out, and if it did, would likely only have 5 to 10 star systems total.
What's next? Real money for fuel and/or oxygen?
Post by: David-2 on November 29, 2017, 12:52:56 PM
(https://www.thebeaverton.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/11/rug-store-closing.jpg)
Post by: Motto on November 29, 2017, 03:07:36 PM
Adding non-existent JPEGs to the store for 6 bucks a piece. No, we are not in financial trouble. I repeat, we are not :lol:
Post by: lurker_404 on November 29, 2017, 03:27:33 PM
Post by: N0mad on November 29, 2017, 03:29:44 PM
https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/comments/7ge134/cig_developer_caught_in_action_fixing_in_game_npc/
Post by: dsmart on November 29, 2017, 05:00:32 PM
Someone was trying to be funny on Reddit (top post!) except look at the FPS in the screenshot :laugh:
https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/comments/7ge134/cig_developer_caught_in_action_fixing_in_game_npc/
:laugh:
Post by: StanTheMan on November 30, 2017, 08:57:05 AM
Post by: AncoGaming on November 30, 2017, 03:45:16 PM
I've been following Derek's Twitter and links to his rundowns of recent events ever since that guy first spoke up, and frankly I have nothing bad to say about all that if he continues to leave the Germans out of it. A singular, slowly dying game magazine that's mostly written by and for idiots does not represent us, and I think this point gets lost easily if you live way across the pond.
I've gotten the invitation to this PTU second hand after Evocati because somehow I am still a reliable person for CIG to give me access to 1st wave without spending a dime. Huge shitstorm, by the way, because some Concierge and recent Subscribers were promised that they could just buy their way into Testing and guess what? It didn't happen for a few days because fuck you, that's why.
So let me tell you some things about this PTU from my perspective, after being actively involved since 2.0:
People on Spectrum have found excuses and talk about priorities all the time, that doesn't change some facts.
Fact1: PTU 3.0 is one year late, and CIG have in house QA testers plus Evocati, who I think may have adressed the unplayable state these builds are in.
Fact2: If PU 3.0 goes live with this kind of performace... the community, the press, Reddit and certain individuals (yeah, you too) will have a field day and controversy will spark to never before known levels, no matter what is and what isn't planned for 3.1, that won't matter any more then.
Oh, and about the Netcode issue... here's another fact: Around 400 people working on this game, but (https://robertsspaceindustries.com/imager/qiyXAw5s2r3Db-ATtlT_EbJLtLE=/fit-in/400x400/https://dto9r5vaiz7bu.cloudfront.net/a4ew4ymvz024v/tavern_upload_large.png)
that mostly explains it. This game is too artistically heavy. Almost no one is working on codebase. Network code optimisation requires alot of manpower.
But of course, I've read there are plenty! There is at least one "Bug Smasher" I've seen on AtV, parked away somewhere in a cellar, with a screen full of code in front of him.
For a game of that scope, I fear even 20 won't be enough. Unfortunately, these 20 don't paint ships you can sell or draw up some procedural stuff to go along with marketing. From a financial point of view, these are nerds who only cost money and always interfere with the "vision" by saying things like:"Guys... this won't work."
But seriously, while Designers and Marketing dream up new worlds and features and sell virtual property on a virtual "vision", the very foundation of anything remotely playable is screwed. I know because I've tested every build for years on end.
If I was a publisher, I'd close the studios and kill off the project before more damage is done. After 5 years, it's too late to start from scratch with an adjusted "vision". This time, Microsoft won't step in to immediately park Roberts on the viewer ranks and then save what's left of the franchise. It will be Daikatana all the way, I fear, just much much bigger.
So I hope at least we're in for a PTU phase long enough to adress at least the issues which already, after a few days, got 1K plus votes over at the IC before shit hits the fan. Finding long winding explanations why these builds are so broken and being totally understanding if not ass-kissing may be very nice, but it won't help anyone. It looks more like Stockholm Syndrome at this point.
And by the way, I won't get banned for writing with mostly sane people outside of Spectrum for a change, don't worry. Nothing will happen to me or my account after posting this, since the overall reception of PTU 3.0 resulted in an uproar by people who just bought a subscription and/or some ships to cross the border to Concierge only to find, well, this. Apparently no one told them about QA work for free in a game they've already payed for years ago.
Post by: Motto on November 30, 2017, 03:49:45 PM
Post by: AncoGaming on November 30, 2017, 03:57:01 PM
Post by: Star Chip on November 30, 2017, 04:36:17 PM
Post by: Scruffpuff on November 30, 2017, 04:42:01 PM
As I said, I am new here. So you'll read this intro as happily excited as everyone else, including Derek Smart, and you'll like it.
I know I'm not excited about it - I'm depressed about it. This goes farther than just not getting a space game. This can harm crowdfunding, whatever European incentives CIG dipped into, etc. It might make publishers even worse than they are now once they see what can be gotten away with.
I don't speak for Derek but I doubt he's happy about it either, aside from feeling some degree of vindication. He backed the project early on after all - you generally don't do that just to shit on it. I backed too, because I believed it looked to be fun.
This whole thing was nothing but a colossal letdown.
Post by: ecg on November 30, 2017, 05:15:31 PM
As I said, I am new here. So you'll read this intro as happily excited as everyone else, including Derek Smart, and you'll like it.This whole thing was nothing but a colossal letdown.
Ditto - I think most here are massively disappointed in what SC could have been. I was in early on (Oct 2012) and stuck it out until earlier this year. We all wanted this to succeed.
This just might turn out to be one of the largest industry train wrecks and could have lasting repercussions on crowdfunding projects.
Post by: Aya Reiko on November 30, 2017, 11:58:37 PM
Post by: StanTheMan on December 01, 2017, 07:37:47 AM
As I said, I am new here. So you'll read this intro as happily excited as everyone else, including Derek Smart, and you'll like it.
I know I'm not excited about it - I'm depressed about it. This goes farther than just not getting a space game. This can harm crowdfunding, whatever European incentives CIG dipped into, etc. It might make publishers even worse than they are now once they see what can be gotten away with.
I don't speak for Derek but I doubt he's happy about it either, aside from feeling some degree of vindication. He backed the project early on after all - you generally don't do that just to shit on it. I backed too, because I believed it looked to be fun.
This whole thing was nothing but a colossal letdown.
I suppose the catastrophe could result in improvements to how games are funded in the future.
As Derek and others regularly say, at this point people largely have themselves to blame.
So lets enjoy the fallout.
IME people are so easily sucked into things through a lack of due diligence, arrogance, stupidity etc and insufficiently self aware to get themselves out.
They only learn by being ripped off - so let them learn.
If I was CRoberts facing a court room perhaps I would saying .. "all the signs were there and we did keep saying to them ....and they kept giving us money and telling us we were dong a good enough job ..."
Post by: hurrdurr on December 01, 2017, 12:15:29 PM
The problem with net code is not the lack of engineer, any real engineer would tell Crobert this game is impossible and immediately fired.
That is part of the problem, but it actually goes deeper. Now I have only have maybe 5 years of professional game development experience (but over 25 years programming experience and on many large projects), but there were issues that have been bothering me about Star Citizen from the 2nd year of development.
There are basically no veteran [game] developers working on this massive, gargantuan project. Let's ignore their semi-recent capture of engine people with the fall of Crytek, nepotism, and use of some useless people from prior projects connected to Chris Roberts for a moment...
What was it that I noticed with increasing trepidation early on in SC dev? A shocking, blaring missing list of real (experienced) veteran game dev, namely: UI engineers, Gameplay engineers, I/O engineers, game directors (Finance, HR, etc.), level designers, rendering engineers, core engineers, online engineers, build engineers, etc. I mean :wtchris: .
Now, another almost criminal action, all the missing experienced concept artists, texture artists, art directors, lighters (lighting), VFX artists, UI designers, game designers, concept artists, audio designers, sound designers, music engineers, video editors, graphics editors, animators, riggers, character designers/artists, project managers, MOCAP director, and so on.
Almost no-one working on this project has any :nws: experience in game development.
I remember watching some videos from the early "Around the 'Verse" and guys mentioning that they were basically teenagers that had been pulled out of school, not even finishing their degrees to work on StarCitizen :vince: :wtf:
Then my gut sank even more when we got "behind the scenes" looks at some of the 3rd party studios that had been contracted out to for work on things like the FPS part of the engine (e.g. Star Marines) and we'd see some clip of two guys in their mom's basement (which was their development "HQ"). :wtf:
Yes there have been exceptions, however, they have not been the rule, which is unacceptable considering the vast amount of resources this project had to bear.
Let's not forget that many of those exceptions ended up quickly leaving or getting fired from the project and under strict NDAs.
What kind of project is it that actively hires droves of inexperienced people while at the same time causes actual professionals to be driven away?
Nothing good.
Post by: dsmart on December 01, 2017, 02:43:00 PM
I've been following Derek's Twitter and links to his rundowns of recent events ever since that guy first spoke up, and frankly I have nothing bad to say about all that if he continues to leave the Germans out of it. A singular, slowly dying game magazine that's mostly written by and for idiots does not represent us, and I think this point gets lost easily if you live way across the pond.
Wait! Wot? You are aware that the guys over at Gamestar.de started (just like CIG did) it first, right? Instead of focusing on Star Citizen, they spent time attacking me and Line Of Defense (a game also in development). Of course as these things, they hitched their horse to the wrong cart, seeing as CIG has proven me to be right over and over again.
Anyway, when I refer to those "Germans", I am speaking specifically about those guys, as well as the rabid German Shitizens. Obviously I am not irresponsible enough to paint all Germans with the same brush. Especially since I have lots of German friends, and have had Germans (one of my oldest friends worked with me on early Battlecruiser games, is German) working for me over the years. I don't know how my very public spat with those guys, somehow being misinterpreted as me be being against all Germans.
Post by: Star Chip on December 01, 2017, 02:50:22 PM
Post by: dsmart on December 01, 2017, 02:52:06 PM
As I said, I am new here. So you'll read this intro as happily excited as everyone else, including Derek Smart, and you'll like it.
I don't speak for Derek but I doubt he's happy about it either, aside from feeling some degree of vindication. He backed the project early on after all - you generally don't do that just to shit on it. I backed too, because I believed it looked to be fun.
This whole thing was nothing but a colossal letdown.
^this. All of it.
There are people who are conveniently ignoring the fact that I was one of the early backers. And that I fought them when they refunded me without my asking for it. Even spending money on legal bills to get them to honor their agreement with backers. Meanwhile, those guys were spending money on JPEGs, while attacking me for expressing my opinions about something that I consider myself to be one of the most qualified people alive to render an opinion on something I've spent over three decades on.
As I've said before, I am more disappointed than pissed. My fight with them is just a byproduct of the angst that they caused when they decided to attack me, thus sparking their anti-social backers - Shitizens - to spend the better part of over 2.5 years attacking me - for writing about a fucking video game.
The game is never - ever - getting made. The vindication only comes in the form that I was right since I called them out in July 2015 and said that by over-scoping the game, they killed the project.
Right now, there are bunch of lunatics parked on Reddit saying that because 3.0 has barren moons - aka planetary tech - that I've been proven wrong. Completely ignoring the fact that my statements have been precise, to the point, and not open to any misinterpretation. That being, the game as pitched, cannot be made. It's got nothing to do with any one thing (engine, networking, physics, AI, rendering, terrain etc); it's to do with ALL the things that we as developers put together to call a GAME. And this shit here (https://starcitizentracker.github.io/), is what they simply can't make.
Post by: dsmart on December 01, 2017, 02:58:22 PM
If CIG don;t have experienced dev work on this project of historical magnitude, then what did Crobert does with the 180m? Did he spend those on actors and motion cap? Now I have 0 years game dev experience, but I know something is wrong when they decided to go wild with Crobert vision, and the engine problem will be doomed from start.
That's going to be the biggest issue when the whole thing collapses eventually. Nobody knows what happened to the money. And even though the funding chart is currently showing $170M, we DO know with 100% certainty, that it's not accurate. However, real or false, that's that funding chart (which I hear is probably going away with the new website) number that people are going to remember. And they can't come back and say, "well it was only $50M - honest!". It's going to be like breaking into a house an admitting to burglary in order to avoid a murder charge because there was a dead body in one of the rooms.
Post by: StanTheMan on December 01, 2017, 05:38:02 PM
If CIG don;t have experienced dev work on this project of historical magnitude, then what did Crobert does with the 180m? Did he spend those on actors and motion cap? Now I have 0 years game dev experience, but I know something is wrong when they decided to go wild with Crobert vision, and the engine problem will be doomed from start.
That's going to be the biggest issue when the whole thing collapses eventually. Nobody knows what happened to the money. And even though the funding chart is currently showing $170M, we DO know with 100% certainty, that it's not accurate. However, real or false, that's that funding chart (which I hear is probably going away with the new website) number that people are going to remember. And they can't come back and say, "well it was only $50M - honest!". It's going to be like breaking into a house an admitting to burglary in order to avoid a murder charge because there was a dead body in one of the rooms.
How much did CRoberts stash into Bitcoin etc ...?
Post by: premiumnugz on December 01, 2017, 08:40:18 PM
How much did CRoberts stash into Bitcoin etc ...?
When you're running a commercial fraud on this scale getting involved in Bitcoin just attracts more attention from three-letter government agencies. There's absolutely no need, all the dirty work is done by big shiny accountancy firms who shuffle the money away as expenses and play three-ring-circus with various shell companies and bank accounts around the world. If they ever did get caught it would all look technically legal, even if it's morally questionable.
They're never going to go down, or even be smeared, for the volume of money they spent or who received it... Citizens will explain all that away as "they deserved it for giving up so much of their life" and "most company directors get paid a lot, look at that EA guy" etc etc...
Chris, Sandi and Ortwin et al will be hung on specific promises they made and failed to deliver despite having all that funding, and choices they made in terms of leadership of various aspects of the project, which may have not been legally responsible in the eyes of the Federal government and it's new laws on Kickstarters.
There's a reason Derek, Sandi and the Queen of England all bank with Coutts, and it's not because Derek or Sandi are royalty.
Post by: dsmart on December 02, 2017, 12:31:40 PM
Post by: Motto on December 02, 2017, 04:17:25 PM
Post by: DemonInvestor on December 03, 2017, 06:39:58 AM
The game is never - ever - getting made. The vindication only comes in the form that I was right since I called them out in July 2015 and said that by over-scoping the game, they killed the project.
Right now, there are bunch of lunatics parked on Reddit saying that because 3.0 has barren moons - aka planetary tech - that I've been proven wrong. Completely ignoring the fact that my statements have been precise, to the point, and not open to any misinterpretation. That being, the game as pitched, cannot be made. It's got nothing to do with any one thing (engine, networking, physics, AI, rendering, terrain etc); it's to do with ALL the things that we as developers put together to call a GAME. And this shit here (https://starcitizentracker.github.io/), is what they simply can't make.
First post, so first let me thank you on sharing your insights so far.
As non developer might i ask you, while you mention those interconnectivity, to share your thoughts on the whole cutting back on network traffic by reducing the connectivity between people within and outside of objects?
They've so often shown off characters waving at each other while being in different objects, and have so many hatches instead of actual airlocks in their ship design, that it just screams to me that they've got to revisit those designs and decisions, which would be another letdown for their shrinking fanbase. Also questioning how you think they'll actually tackle boarding actions during space battles when they're now speaking about heavily instancing stuff.
Personally i think Roberts is so far doing the most expansive brainstorming session in history. As i've seldomly heard/read them discussing any implications for the gameplay systems of their decisions so far, but tons of nebulous general ideas of what systems are going to be in the game.
Post by: dsmart on December 03, 2017, 07:11:02 AM
The game is never - ever - getting made. The vindication only comes in the form that I was right since I called them out in July 2015 and said that by over-scoping the game, they killed the project.
Right now, there are bunch of lunatics parked on Reddit saying that because 3.0 has barren moons - aka planetary tech - that I've been proven wrong. Completely ignoring the fact that my statements have been precise, to the point, and not open to any misinterpretation. That being, the game as pitched, cannot be made. It's got nothing to do with any one thing (engine, networking, physics, AI, rendering, terrain etc); it's to do with ALL the things that we as developers put together to call a GAME. And this shit here (https://starcitizentracker.github.io/), is what they simply can't make.
First post, so first let me thank you on sharing your insights so far.
As non developer might i ask you, while you mention those interconnectivity, to share your thoughts on the whole cutting back on network traffic by reducing the connectivity between people within and outside of objects?
They've so often shown off characters waving at each other while being in different objects, and have so many hatches instead of actual airlocks in their ship design, that it just screams to me that they've got to revisit those designs and decisions, which would be another letdown for their shrinking fanbase. Also questioning how you think they'll actually tackle boarding actions during space battles when they're now speaking about heavily instancing stuff.
Personally i think Roberts is so far doing the most expansive brainstorming session in history. As i've seldomly heard/read them discussing any implications for the gameplay systems of their decisions so far, but tons of nebulous general ideas of what systems are going to be in the game.
As someone who has built networking tech over the years, it's a very difficult subject to explain to non-programmers. The long and short of it is that it all goes way beyond how features work, but rather how much data gets sent to the server, to the client, how frequently etc.
A lot of the work in networked games is handled client side - meaning stuff that that the server doesn't care about or needs to know about. Some of that includes things like a player in a doorway, in a ship, shooting, jumping, waving etc. All the play cares about is what a client is doing and where they are in the game world (2D or 3D).
e.g. in Star Citizen, when you have 8 players in ArcCorp, each one needs to know where they are, and what they are doing. So if playerA is waving, PlayerB needs to see that. In a peer-to-peer game, where all clients talk to each other, that data is communicated between clients. In a client-server game, where the server is referee who doesn't trust the client - since they can cheat - it's the server that is responsible for receiving, analyzing, and sending that data to other clients. So if the networking isn't optimized and a lot of data gets sent to the server, which then has to process and send it back, it can cause some significant performance issues.
If you know about Big Benny, then you know the problem. A player can move it, but the other player won't know about it because the server doesn't handle anything that isn't related to actual player clients. And if they do "grabby hands" cargo, it's the same problem because while they would have to process that data specifically, there can still be issues whereby the cargo is lost, dropped, not in the right location etc. All the problems currently seen in 3.0.
All the buzz words you see CIG and backers uttering, like network bind culling, serialized variables etc, aren't even close to what they need to solve their networking problems. Yes, they will help, but their impact is minimal - at best - in the general scheme of things because there are LOT of other INSURMOUNTABLE things that they have to overcome - and which they can't.
Things like players being in one ship, trying to board another etc, is trivial to do because it's just positional data. It's no different from how you have a player flying around in space, and another driving on the moon below. As long as they are all in the same instanced world, those kinds of things aren't hard to do. But they can be plagued with problems as we have seen in the game since 2.0 was released. And in 3.0, due to the addition of new things and features, it just got worse. And there is just no recovery because there isn't enough time to rip it all out and do it right. They waited too long to do that - and they're hamstrung with their use of the WRONG engine for the game they are trying to build. Using on variant (Lumberyard) of CE3, isn't going to solve it for them. Even AMZ has stated that the engine isn't for MMO games. Sure, you can use it to build one, but you would have to write a LOT of support code for it.
All that aside, trying to do inter-instance connectivity (like how ED does it), is going to be worse because of how the game works. ED gets away with it because they built a robust networking engine from the ground up, then plugged it into their game engine. They planned for it from the start. And they only have ships to deal with. Star Citizen on the other hand has a LOT of features to deal with in a networked world, including the fact networking an FPS game is fraught with issues all by itself.
I was on an Open House stream yesterday in which I mentioned that backers have not realized or reconciled the fact that, in the 400 people they claim to have working on this game, NONE of them has EVER worked on a game of this scope, let alone an MMO. So they've basically been doing R&D, as learn-as-you-go. That's just not going to work, and that's why the project has suffered, and is on the verge of a catastrophic collapse.
More here: http://dereksmart.com/forums/reply/5949/
Post by: DemonInvestor on December 03, 2017, 10:57:17 AM
Thanks for the long answer and the link. Though i had read that before i've gone to a few more links and beside the overall gems of CIGs iconsistency, it was again an intersting read.
Just realized what you simply know from experience and might see as a micro level was more of a macro level for me. As i was more thinking about how effective their "culling"/"instancing" could be given their current designs ideas of mostly open ships and hard player limits per instance when one has got "unconnected" containers with people who just might want to connect within seconds and any logical (inherent game world logic as opposed to network) barrier for them to not be able to.
Than again i'm wasting time thinking about a company who's selling digital moon land plots.
Post by: StanTheMan on December 03, 2017, 11:25:00 AM
backers have not realized or reconciled the fact that, in the 400 people they claim to have working on this game, NONE of them has EVER worked on a game of this scope, let alone an MMO.
And most of the people working on the game have very little experience playing MMOs to know what is important in gameplay terms even if they could convey that to Croberts or Erin.
So they cant develop an MMO from lack of technical expertise and they cant even nominally design one either.....
You can excuse a lot of Backers for their lack of technical understanding. but
You cant excuse backers having a lack of MMO gameplay awareness.
And you cant excuse Backers failing to spot when CRoberts and Erin has lost their integrity as people and their credibility as experts.
Post by: dsmart on December 03, 2017, 11:58:07 AM
@Derek
Thanks for the long answer and the link. Though i had read that before i've gone to a few more links and beside the overall gems of CIGs iconsistency, it was again an intersting read.
Just realized what you simply know from experience and might see as a micro level was more of a macro level for me. As i was more thinking about how effective their "culling"/"instancing" could be given their current designs ideas of mostly open ships and hard player limits per instance when one has got "unconnected" containers with people who just might want to connect within seconds and any logical (inherent game world logic as opposed to network) barrier for them to not be able to.
Than again i'm wasting time thinking about a company who's selling digital moon land plots.
Yeah, it's very difficult to explain at a macro level without getting too technical. :science:
The whole thing about "server meshes", "interconnecting instances" etc is all rubbish. Anyone who looks at this game - after 6 yrs and $170M and thinks "Yeah, they're totally capable of doing that", is a fool.
For one thing, given instance1 where there is a ship with 6 gamers, then have instance2 with a ship with 6 gamers, you have to hand-off players going from I1 to I2 and vice-versa by disconnecting them from one, while connecting them to the other. Well, think about how many things could possibly go wrong with that, then in the case of Star Citizen which has to handle ships AND fps gamers - and multiply it by x10.
Post by: DemonInvestor on December 03, 2017, 02:44:49 PM
Yeah, it's very difficult to explain at a macro level without getting too technical. :science:
The whole thing about "server meshes", "interconnecting instances" etc is all rubbish. Anyone who looks at this game - after 6 yrs and $170M and thinks "Yeah, they're totally capable of doing that", is a fool.
For one thing, given instance1 where there is a ship with 6 gamers, then have instance2 with a ship with 6 gamers, you have to hand-off players going from I1 to I2 and vice-versa by disconnecting them from one, while connecting them to the other. Well, think about how many things could possibly go wrong with that, then in the case of Star Citizen which has to handle ships AND fps gamers - and multiply it by x10.
6yrs and only now working on most likely the biggest resource constraint they have for the sort of game they advertised. Funnily i just took a look at the Javelin with it's max 80 person crew idea. Though than again how one can conceptionalize a 80 person crew without directly answering what they're all going to do (besides playing online hearts on a second computer or something) on said ship.
Well small container to small container sounds like the most easy scenario to me. Think about container in container (as in Javelin + MPUV).
Don't forget it's not just a FPS but seemingly one, where you can shoot from one instance into the next - i mean i read that at least once. :laugh:
And all of that isn't even touching on the whole P2W and what happens if one of the advertised pirates actually robs a big buck spender of his big toy.
Post by: N0mad on December 03, 2017, 02:49:48 PM
Post by: StanTheMan on December 03, 2017, 04:28:37 PM
Yeah, it's very difficult to explain at a macro level without getting too technical. :science:
The whole thing about "server meshes", "interconnecting instances" etc is all rubbish. Anyone who looks at this game - after 6 yrs and $170M and thinks "Yeah, they're totally capable of doing that", is a fool.
For one thing, given instance1 where there is a ship with 6 gamers, then have instance2 with a ship with 6 gamers, you have to hand-off players going from I1 to I2 and vice-versa by disconnecting them from one, while connecting them to the other. Well, think about how many things could possibly go wrong with that, then in the case of Star Citizen which has to handle ships AND fps gamers - and multiply it by x10.
6yrs and only now working on most likely the biggest resource constraint they have for the sort of game they advertised. Funnily i just took a look at the Javelin with it's max 80 person crew idea. Though than again how one can conceptionalize a 80 person crew without directly answering what they're all going to do (besides playing online hearts on a second computer or something) on said ship.
Well small container to small container sounds like the most easy scenario to me. Think about container in container (as in Javelin + MPUV).
Don't forget it's not just a FPS but seemingly one, where you can shoot from one instance into the next - i mean i read that at least once. :laugh:
And all of that isn't even touching on the whole P2W and what happens if one of the advertised pirates actually robs a big buck spender of his big toy.
Yes and this is why most of the people supporting CRoberts clearly havent a clue, or haven't thought about, what they claim they are going to do.
That's why Derek original blog was so powerful because it jolted many Backers out of the fantasy mindset and forced them to consider the facts. Croberts was bullshitting about Star Marine around that time and we had been in development for long enough for people to start having reasonable doubts about CRoberts capabilities.
Erin has continued in a similar vane, claiming 1000's in an instance and exciting things for crew to do like pressing a button or two to help someone actually having fun....
He is just as much of a lying scammer as his brother and clearly has no idea what is fun to do in an MMORPG and how people would be griefed to buggery and back with the gameplay elements they claim they are developing and those they brainstorm on their fluffed up shows.
When you think how much there is to do and how little progress has been made you only need a tiny bit of technical nouse to ask a simple question like the one you have you have and the scales are removed from ones eyes...
Post by: Aya Reiko on December 04, 2017, 12:19:01 AM
What they'll actually be doing:Yeah, it's very difficult to explain at a macro level without getting too technical. :science:
The whole thing about "server meshes", "interconnecting instances" etc is all rubbish. Anyone who looks at this game - after 6 yrs and $170M and thinks "Yeah, they're totally capable of doing that", is a fool.
For one thing, given instance1 where there is a ship with 6 gamers, then have instance2 with a ship with 6 gamers, you have to hand-off players going from I1 to I2 and vice-versa by disconnecting them from one, while connecting them to the other. Well, think about how many things could possibly go wrong with that, then in the case of Star Citizen which has to handle ships AND fps gamers - and multiply it by x10.
6yrs and only now working on most likely the biggest resource constraint they have for the sort of game they advertised. Funnily i just took a look at the Javelin with it's max 80 person crew idea. Though than again how one can conceptionalize a 80 person crew without directly answering what they're all going to do (besides playing online hearts on a second computer or something) on said ship.
Well small container to small container sounds like the most easy scenario to me. Think about container in container (as in Javelin + MPUV).
Don't forget it's not just a FPS but seemingly one, where you can shoot from one instance into the next - i mean i read that at least once. :laugh:
And all of that isn't even touching on the whole P2W and what happens if one of the advertised pirates actually robs a big buck spender of his big toy.
SC is the bastard child of the worst of AAA's devs PTW mentality and the numerous failed KS's that aimed too high and crashed and burned with all of that cranked up to 11. All further amplified by the remaining fanbase's NMS-like fantasies of what the thing is going to be.
It's all going to be hilarious with the whole thing slams into the ground.
Post by: Flashwit on December 04, 2017, 09:45:17 AM
I'd love to know the final breakdown of how many people are doing what job at CIG. How many are programmers vs artists / animators / designers. And how does this compare to a normal AA studio? Considering the technical challenges they face, they need a lot of programmers, bus since this is CIG and they just make tech demos and JPEGS to sell the ships they aren't making, then I'm assuming they have a huge art department instead.
Totally. While it's expected that a game such as this would have a large art department I'm willing to bet that their ratio is way out of scale. Especially when you take into account the relevant skill levels. They absolutely need someone who has decades of experience to be running the network part. That's THE critical portion of an MMO and I don't believe they have anyone like that. I think I saw that they have less than 10 network engineers in the whole company?
I work with plenty of smart people, some who have a lot of experience in creating highly scalable robust backends and they still wouldn't be competent in doing this sort of thing for a game, it's a completely different situation. I don't believe they have the knowledge in-house to make any significant improvements.
Post by: Star Chip on December 04, 2017, 11:30:32 AM
Post by: dsmart on December 05, 2017, 07:47:13 AM
Quote
Adventure report from the PTU tonight. My self-imposed mission: complete one in-game "Quest."
Attempt #1:
Spawned in the wank pod and despite running a whole bunch of config changes and various performance tweaks, the game was as much of a 3 fps slideshow as ever. I jittered my way out of bed and then painstakingly made my way to the ship spawn chamber. Seriously this took about 3 minutes. Every time an npc would t-pose onto the screen or stutter-dance around a corner, my whole computer would freeze up for 5-10 seconds. It was like a horror movie except instead of murdered by the uncontrollably vibrating monsters I just got kind of mildly irritated. The consolation is that at least once you get out of port Ollisar the whole experience smooths out somewhat. Why they decided to make every player spawn in a tiny area when their main server performance issue occurs due to player density, I'll never know.
Eventually managed to make it to the ship spawner and decided to spawn an "Aegis Saber Tomcat Punches Above Its Weight Edition Mk 7." No idea what it was, just one of the PTU ships they allow players to spawn, but I was guessing that it was a single seat fighter because that is everything now. It spawned on pad C07. Painstakingly janked my way to the airlock and... it wouldn't open. That's no problem, dealt with that before, the solution is to jank your way to one of the other airlocks and then laboriously work your way back to your landing pad from the outside. Went to the next closest airlock- also broken. I should point out here that this bug has been in the game since 2.0 launched in fucking 2015 and they still haven't fixed it. Eventually after checking every airlock on the level, I found one that would let me out- on the far side of the pads from my ship. Great! Ran out into space. I decided it'd be faster to jump off the pads and then nipplejet my way over to my ship. Jumped off the pads, and my character went into a tumble animation and just kind of stayed there, 2 feet away from my launch point, flailing wildly and never returning control. Eventually I found the buttons to kill myself.
Attempt #2:
Back in the wank pod. Same shaky journey to the outside, where I discovered that my ASTPAIWE Mk7 was still spawned... on a whole separate set of pads from the one I respawned on. Undeterred, I threw myself off the landing platforms again and this time the nipplejets kicked into life. With a mighty fssssshhhhhh I kicked the jets in and spent the next 5+ minutes staring boredly at chat while my spaceman inched over to my ship. I guess some other people were planning to all hop in a caterpillar and fly to one of the planets but they couldn't get the doors to work? I made a mental note to grief them if I finished my mission.
Finally arriving at the ship, I noted that it was indeed a single-seat fighter, I guess... some kind of stealth ship? I didn't really take long to think about the ramifications of a stealth ship in a world where all combat happens at WW2 dogfight ranges and everything fires bright red lasers. Got in the ship, and miracle of miracles was able to take off without any jank. Now, when I say "Without any jank" I should clarify- everything in the game sucks shit. At no point in this experience did my fps jump above 5, and my spaceman is barely controllable at the best of times. But I didn't clip through anything, and didn't die, and that is a win in a Citizen's book. That's living the fucking dream. So anyway I pop into the ship and get a notification that I now have missions waiting for me to accept them if I will only bring up my retarded wrist-mounted HUD. So I hit f1 and the spaceman begins repeatedly punching himself in the dick really hard which I guess is what happens when the "Open menu" animation bugs out and starts looping. I'd heard that the bugfix for this is to just mash f1 a thousand more times, so I do that and eventually get to a menu.
Accepting the contract and navigating to it isn't easy. I'm going on some sort of rescue mission which the text says is on Delamar, the nav beacon that pops up (but I can't warp to) says is in intergalactic space, and the star map says is on Yela. Since the only one I can actually warp to is the one on the star map, I set it as my destination and proceed to hammer the "B" button a thousand times, which is the preferred method of engaging one's quantum drive. I like to imagine that all of the spaceships in the game are basically eastern european autos and all spacemen are in a permanent drunken rage as they hammer the shit out of every control just to get any kind of response. It makes the whole thing slightly less frustrating.
Anyway I get to Yela and it turns out the "Help" beacon spawned inside an asteroid so the person I'm supposed to protect dies instantly. Mission failed.
Attempt #3:
But that's okay because I'm being offered a new mission! Fly over to a wrecked starfarer and collect "The Goods." Deliver them to such and such for who cares and get like 300 credits. I know these are MMO quests and therefor basically just ways to waste your time, but it feels like if a crate is worth recovering from a wrecked spaceship you should probably pay more than the space equivalent of bus fare to whichever mercenary picks it up for you. But what do I know. Luckily the beacon for this is like 30 km away from the asteroid with the failed protection mission, so I don't have to quantum jump anywhere. I point the nose of my ship at the beacon and settle in for another 2 minute flight.
As I arrive, what to my wondering eyes should appear but another actual human being! Or at least, I assume it was. There's the wrecked starfarer, and there nestled up against its belly is a Cutlass that registers as friendly when I target it. Despite the ridiculous close-packed nature of the spawn, this is the first player I've encountered while just flying around in several hours of playing this stupid build. Naturally I set engines to full burn and just hammer those motherfucking triggers as the game devolves into a 1fps slideshow- I mean clearly he was after my loot, it's completely justified. I guess the pilot was actually in the cockpit because the cutlass begins trying to make evasive maneuvers, but either he flies in a straight line or he isn't pounding his controls hard enough because it is incredibly easy to track him and just lay on the fire until he explodes. That was... really odd, actually. Ships in 3.0 are normally completely unkillable due to lag and jank and weird balance issues. I played Arena Commander once (once) and none of the three guys on my team could kill even a single ship of the first wave, they just tanked everything.
So anyway the cutlass is dead and with one nefarious act of piracy under my belt I try to figure out how to get out of my fucking ship to get this loot. Unfortunately entering combat has A) destroyed the server, and B) destroyed my hud, including the "Push F to actually use anything in the cockpit" system that everyone is so keen on. So I'm still stuck at 1FPS and now nothing in the cockpit will respond except flight controls. Eventually I remember there's a hardcoded "Exit" key, Alt-F, and hammer that two thousand times until my guy gets up. Now all I have to do is fly into the crashed starfarer and retrieve a simple box.
Let me digress here for a moment. Do games ever make you feel motion sick? Can you remember the last time a game was so completely disorienting that you had no idea what way was up? For me it was the Descent games back in the 90's. Something about those suckers would just fuck with my inner ear something fierce. Flight sims and VR can't hold a candle to that feeling.
Well, Star Citizen can. See the thing is, the Starfarer is wrecked, so it has no power. That means the inside is zero-G, pitch black, and covered in floating debris. And every time you touch any piece of that debris, your spaceman starts doing sick 360 noscopes. Within seconds I'm completely disoriented, before half a minute has passed I am actually physically nauseous. The box, literally labelled "The Goods" is only 20m away but it might as well be 200. I seriously cannot make any progress towards it down a straight line fucking corridor, my spaceman janks and spins wildly every time I touch a control. But I am undeterred. I stand up and do a shot of maalox and then inch, ever so carefully, around every fucking piece of debris and down that hallway. The final door is in sight but it is covered in other boxes. I have no choice but to nipplejet straight at it and hope that I can bust through like some kind of retarded kool-aid man. Somehow, this actually works! I find myself in front of "The Goods" and somehow, manage to engage my grabby hands! This mission is so close to being over I can taste it. Now I just have to maneuver my way back out.
I hear laser fire from outside. Well, I assume it's laser fire. I hear noises, space noises, chopped up into incomprehensibility by the 1-2 fps that I'm getting. Did Cutlass man come back? Did the game spawn pirates on me when I got the box? I can't lose now! Slowly, caaarefully I - fuck, touched some debris, time for the zero-g tilt-a-whirl from hell again. I get back out the door and to the ship- I'm guessing it is NPC pirates shooting at it, but I really can't tell. Either way they appear to be doing zero damage to my entirely stationary, powered-off ship. Sure, okay.
I jet to the ship, pilfered goods in hand, and at last the moment is upon us. "Enter pilot seat" I tell my character, and he does just that- immediately chucking the box into the void of fucking space as he enters his pre-canned animation god DAMN IT. So apparently if you have single seat fighters, you should basically not do any mission that involves moving any kind of good because you literally have to physically stuff that shit in your ship, I guess? CIG I feel that you perhaps did not think any of this through very well.
In order to complete the mission I'd have to fight off the two basically invincible npc's, fly back to jankbase prime, spawn a ship with a cargo area, come back and redo the starfarer carnival ride bullshit a second time. I want to emphasize, this is a starter mission, paying 300 credits, and to complete it you're going to need 1+ hour and a ship that costs more than 100 bucks- one that can fight and carry cargo.
Mission abandoned.
Quote
Thank you for the kind words everyone. Not sure how often I'm going to do any kind of PTU writeup because it really is a pile of unfun garbage, but if I find something amusing I will write about it for you.
It really can't be emphasized enough how bad the combat is right now. There's a reason all of the posts on the subreddit, and all of the streamer videos, feature people just flying from planet to planet and loading/unloding cargo- you literally cannot fight in the current build of the PTU. Between super low framerates, input lag in the 2-3second range, and targets jittering all over the screen like coked up hummingbirds, it's next to impossible to land a shot. Even if you do, some asshole at CIG decided to make combat more like Elite, I guess, which means your average engagement if you can hit the target will take 3-4 minutes just to do enough damage that they die. And there is literally nothing stopping them from ignoring you for the 10 seconds it takes to set a jump destination and fly away if they feel like they're losing. Not that you could tell you were losing because, as far as I can see, the shield indicators don't work and the damage states are broken as fuck. Missiles almost never hit, and if they do hit seem to do next to no damage.
I'm actually really excited for them to fix the FPS. The game is stable enough that it doesn't crash very often already, and the only reason it is so riveting is because just fighting through the lag and low FPS to land on a planet feels like a real achievement. Smooth those framerates out and people are going to get tired of wanking over landing and go try to actually do things in the PTU, only to realize that literally every system is either a stubbed-in placeholder, or broken, or both.
Post by: dsmart on December 05, 2017, 07:50:02 AM
YOUTUBE: Walking In Hyperspace Ships
As a Public Service and “3.0 experience” documentation exercise for those not playing, I’m including below this summary of a randomly selected new Dan Gheesling video. (I apologize for any link errors and the absence of graphics. I wrote it on my phone in stages as my schedule allowed. I may edit in gifs later.)
A prior installment of this sort for those interested can be found here (https://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3748466&pagenumber=4217&perpage=40#post461095969).
That summary, written nearly two years ago, saw Batgirl engaging in a riveting “let’s go flip a switch on or off in a satellite array for AlphaUEC” Mission in 2.4. Heads were bonked, complications ensued, and a person actually capable of landing a plane in real life discovered that she could not, for all her experience, land a ship in the game she loves so painfully much...
But that was nearly two years ago, and it’s often said much has changed since then. That there is more and better content in 3.0 than in a AAA game like GTA5.
So with 3.0 around the corner and Cargo Missions finally adding wild variety to the “menial crap to do in the ‘Verse to earn meager game currency”, let’s check it out and get a measure of progress on the gameplay experience 21 months later.
—
SESSION 1 - QUANTUM JUMP BLUES
0:01 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S9CO8i5XXsQ) - Dan’s adventure begins, as all Star Citizen adventures must, with the “awake and escape from the bedroom” challenge. And lest you think getting out of a bed and opening a space door sounds hardly a risky affair, think again. (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=fDnzLVupvJQ&t=35m11s)
Yet while the challenge recently proved fatal for Batgirl, Dan proves equal to the task. He survives opening the door and is off in search of mega-thrills in Chris Roberts’s living, breathing universe of 3 moons, 1 planet, and a planetoid on loan from another star system as yet not in the game.
“Excited to get started here, we’ve hit a few of non-buttery patches of servers. But we’re going to give it the true experience here. We’re gonna battle through it.”
He then explains that he’s received so many requests to perform a Cargo mission that this will indeed be today’s goal.
0:19 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S9CO8i5XXsQ&t=0m19s) - He races to the terminal to spawn his ship of choice — the Avenger — and then, like a shot, he races out to board it.
But it didn’t spawn, a fact he eventually realizes. IT’S ALPHA.
No matter, he’ll just spawn an Aurora and engage in the first of many fictive conversations with his viewers.
1:12 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S9CO8i5XXsQ&t=1m11s) - ”Alright, lets take an Aurora DL.”
(imitating)
“Dan, you’re gonna take a bucket of bolts over the Avenger?”
(replying)
”Well we pulled out a little early and Albert gave us cream cheese when we asked for... some anchovy-filled olives. Alright nonetheless another of you guys said was ‘Hey Dan, you’re able to go buy the actual easy helmet.’”
With that he’s off to the store and seconds later standing before the helmet he’d like to buy.
1:49 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S9CO8i5XXsQ&t=1m49s) - “I would like to purchase the helmet.”
Apparently the Voice Command feature is having a little trouble because despite repeated attempts to purchase the helmet, he can’t. So he instead heads off in search of adventure resigned to wearing his “Eddie Bauer helmet”. For now.
2:50 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S9CO8i5XXsQ&t=2m50s) - He approaches his Aurora. Gets in. Spends a small eternity trying to get it started but eventually succeeds. 3 minutes since his bedroom escape, his adventure begins.
3:45 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S9CO8i5XXsQ&t=3m45s) - Mobiglass Fu ensues, eventually leading him to accept his Cargo mission four minutes in to his session.
The objective: Retrieve mineral samples from Daymar.
Say goodbye to those boring “flip the switch on/off at the Comm Array” missions of old and hello to the thrilling “get in a spaceship, expend fuel and time, navigate the mobiglass interface, contend with quantum drive challenges and the vast in-game distances to pick up one box of minerals from a pile of junk on the dark side of a moon for a pittance in credits” missions. Now you’re playing with power — SuperPower. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x33VAAd3-NI&t=0m27s)
6:10 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S9CO8i5XXsQ&t=6m10s) - After several failed attempts to Quantum jump to Daymar, he decides to apply one of the most ancient of PC rituals to his Aurora. The full-power reboot.
He shuts it off. Then powers it back up. And IT WORKS!
6:52 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S9CO8i5XXsQ&t=6m52s) - “Quantum drive is now OFF. Quantum drive is now ON. Quantum drive is now OFF. Quantum drive is now ON.” (Just tap the button, Dan. Stop holding it.)
7:08 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S9CO8i5XXsQ&t=7m08s) - A dazzling Quantum Jump slideshow begins.
(imitating)
“Dan the frames don’t look very good.”
(replying)
“Don’t worry ‘bout the frames we’re going for the order delivery.”
7:40 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S9CO8i5XXsQ&t=7m40s) - He discovers he’s still too far from the target for a quick approach and thus will have to micro-jump closer.
“Alright so let’s lock on to Orbital Marker 6 — get your dongers out, we’re going for it!”
9:08 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S9CO8i5XXsQ&t=9m08s)- “We’re fighting through the curds and whey to try to get to the butter server.”
A protracted interlude of interface difficulty and user error ensues. Eventually his boredom gives way to reflection and a revelatory utterance worthy of the truest of Star Citizens.
11:15 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S9CO8i5XXsQ&t=11m15s) - “Alright so now we are de-coupled we should just literally... use our acquiescence, our momentum to move forward.”
(Acquiescence and momentum have gotten us this far, Dan, may they forever move us forward.)
Meanwhile, back in the Verse, Dan feels an urgent longing and decides it’s time to play with danger.
“While that’s going on... there’s a strong desire to get up and walk around, maybe lay down in the back.”
(imitating)
“Dan are you kidding me?”
He explains that no, he’s not really kidding,“We’ve got a long way to go and what else are you gonna do?”
(imitating)
“But Dan if you get up, there’s a strong chance you may never sit down again.”
(replying)
”I guess that’s a chance we have to take.”
12:03 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S9CO8i5XXsQ&t=12m03s) - Dan leaves the pilot’s seat, eager to embark on a walkabout around his Aurora, a ship which has approximately two meters of walkable floor.
After a brief session of ultra-fidelity crotch shots (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S9CO8i5XXsQ&t=12m20s), his meditative Aurora stroll finds him harkening back to his tender years, as memories of his love of Legos resurface:
”As a kid, I would build Lego vehicles and ships. Not because I liked ships — I kinda did but moreso, I liked the ability to walk around inside of a moving vehicle — store things in there, hide things in there, pull up the panels underneath maybe hide some inadequate... No, do not... Maybe have a little hidden area there where you can hide contraband. But this is the dream. This is part of why I like Star Citizen.”
13:30 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S9CO8i5XXsQ&t=12m03s) - Reinvigorated by his brisk toddle around the Aurora, he returns to the Pilot’s Seat.
“I know there’s problems, I know there’s bugs, I know it’s Alpha, I know it’s going to take awhile. But... with that being said... we can walk around a moving ship. Respect it.”
15:15 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S9CO8i5XXsQ&t=15m14s)[/url] - “This is the very definition of ghost riding the whip...”
(imitating)
“But Dan, you’re not very stable here...”
ERROR: DISCONNECTION (CODE 30000)
”Noooo.”
Yes, he crashed. The past 15 minutes spent attempting to consummate an in-game UPS Driver Mission are lost and the Groundhog Day rebirth cycle begins anew. He awakens in his space bed for what surely is his 10000th time at this point and embarks upon the “Awake and escape from the bedroom” mission again.
—
SESSION #2 - BUTTER SHUFFLE
15:28 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S9CO8i5XXsQ&t=15m28s) - ”Chris Roberts taketh away... but also giveth. And this, look at this, this is a brand new fresh 60 fps server.”
(imitating)
“But Dan, why did you leave the other footage on this episode out?”
(replying)
”This is why. So you can get a taste of the PTU. This is what it’s all about. You get some curds and whey and then you get the smooth butter.”
The do-over begins. Frame rates are up as are butter nonsequitors.
16:11 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S9CO8i5XXsQ&t=16m11s) - “The more butter, LOOK at all these people! They’re gravitating towards the butter. Open this. We gotta go! LOOK at how good — this is... I’m not gassing you guys up this is 100% 60 fps... or pretty darn close to it.”
(imitating)
”Dan you said 100% - which is it?”
(replying)
”You tell me — you see the smoke? I got no words for it. This is why when you get the Butter Server you take full advantage of it... I’d like... Butter!”
He races through the hallways to get to his Avenger, but alas, are frames already slowing a bit on the Butter Server?
“See it’s startin’... People are startin’ to drop some curds and whey.”
17:06 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S9CO8i5XXsQ&t=17m06s) - He’s reached the Avenger and boards it post haste as the threat of impending curds and whey looms large over the Butter Server.
(imitating)
“Dan, you said you were gonna do a Cargo mission.
(replying)
“I think the title of this episode just became ‘Butter and Curds and Whey.”
He quickly cycles through missions like a man on a mission to get missions while the getting is Butter and not Curds and Whey.
17:50 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S9CO8i5XXsQ&t=17m50s)
(imitating)
“Dan you should probably read that quicker a little bit slower.”
(replying)
“I would... but at the same time, we’re trying to get some Butter into Daymar. But when we get some stableness we’re going to soak all this in like a fine vintage.”
18:21 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S9CO8i5XXsQ&t=18m21s) - The race to get some Butter to Daymar goes Quantum. But upon arrival in orbit, complications ensue. He’s lost his mission.
He navigates the Mobiglass in search of a Daymar-based Cargo mission because Butter, and fortunately, he finds one. A pickup mission at a stash house. He takes it. But sees no stash house added as quest marker.
19:22 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S9CO8i5XXsQ&t=19m22s) - Panic threatens to set in, and Dan makes clear just how urgent the stakes are.
In a brute force gambit to overcome any disappearing objective risks, he accepts every mission and looks to see if that added a quest marker. No joy. Perhaps a jump to a nearby marker might solve the problem?
20:20 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S9CO8i5XXsQ&t=20m20s) - “One can only hope. Let’s enjoy the Butter. Thank you guys so much for tuning in by the way! — So did they not give us the butter?”
Negatory, he sees no quest markers added after accepting all missions and jumping to a nearby orbital marker. Like you said before, Dan — Chris Roberts giveth and Chris Roberts taketh away.
Daymar is out and Yela is in, at least as a waypoint en route to Cellin.
21:42 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S9CO8i5XXsQ&t=21m42s) - After nearly 22 minutes of not being able to engage in his Cargo quest mission, maybe this time is different. He begins the routine futz-with-interfaces ritual to attempt to set his new destination.
23:00 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S9CO8i5XXsQ&t=23m00s) - A minute and a half later, he jumps to Yela — and upon completion, he muses aloud that it would be interesting to poll his viewers for a confidence check in his ability to complete the mission, or at least pick up the stash.
I believe in you, Dan — I gotta believe!
Now in orbit around Yela, he can begin the next leg of the world’s most circuitous “get in get stuff get out” plan. It’s time to visit his third planetary body, Cellin.
23:43 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S9CO8i5XXsQ&t=23m43s) - The Jump to Cellin about to begin, Dan contrasts the incredible experience he’s currently been enjoying with Elite Dangerous, and it’s pretty clear which side of the bread his Butter is coming from.
”Zing!”
(Yeah I hate having to measure the barometric pressure in Elite before traveling, too, Dan.)
24:00 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S9CO8i5XXsQ&t=24m00s) - He’s here — at Cellin! And better still, the quest marker is right before him.
Finally, FINALLY, the quest is within arm’s reach, he’ll be there in no time! So what does Dan decide to do?
(imitating)
“Dan, are you going to walk around in the ship?”
(replying)
”That’s debatable.”
But after a few moments pass, he makes his choice. He will PLAY WITH DANGER again because Legos, Butter, etc.
24:40 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S9CO8i5XXsQ&t=24m40s) - He gets out of his Pilot Seat...
And it seems for a moment there might’ve been a problem, but no, everything’s fine. The terrifying mortal danger he was playing with by exiting a chair has past.
Dan breaths a sigh of relief, “Ah, okay, nice. I was a LITTLE BIT concerned there...”
THEN HE DIES. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S9CO8i5XXsQ&t=24m42s)
“Ahhh. Noooo.”
—
25:10 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S9CO8i5XXsQ&t=25m20s) - SESSION #3 - DAYMAR ELEGY[/b]
25:10 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S9CO8i5XXsQ&t=25m10s) - “I cant believe that happened. No.”
“Desperate times call for desperate measures. We’re back in the exact same locale, exact same server, exact same mission.”
25:30 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S9CO8i5XXsQ&t=25m30s) - Now in the Drake Herald, he sees his abandoned Avenger and wonders if it will beat him to the planet.
25:40 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S9CO8i5XXsQ&t=25m40s) - “We should be able to beat it. We’re coming in hot, we should blow past it, it may crater. I don’t know if we’re going to be able to save our ship but nonetheless, I’m going to get up and walk around.”
He moves to do it.
”I’m just joking. I learned my lesson.”
:lol::lol::lol:
He continues his descent with blistering speed.
(imitating)
“Dan, do you think you should pull up yet?”
(replying)
”I think we’ve still got some time. There’s our Avenger let’s give it a nice little cruise by, shall we?”
Then it hits him, ”Oh we’re still going down Dan because you’re decoupled. Uh-oh! Pull-up!”
BOINK!
27:07 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S9CO8i5XXsQ&t=27m40s) - “Oooaaahhhh!”
Dan’s ship spins wildly and you’d be forgiven for thinking all hope was lost, but no, he manages to stabilize it. He sets his sights on the quest objective and muses to self that he can’t believe he survived what should’ve been a fatal mistake. Given his past experience, maybe not leaving his pilot’s seat had something to do with that.
The pick-up point is now in sight. Consummation of the objective twice denied him is finally near.
27:55 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S9CO8i5XXsQ&t=27m54s) - ”There’s our product! It’s just out there!”
28:07 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S9CO8i5XXsQ&t=28m07s) - ”IT’S JUST OUT THERE!”
(imitating)
”Dan this is what you should be doing instead of dinkin’ around!”
28:17 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S9CO8i5XXsQ&t=28m17s) - Dan pulls off an ”I can’t believe it’s not butter!” smooth landing that even he seems impressed with.
”Let’s go ahead and set her down- I didn’t know it was gonna be like this! Just dropped, like an airdrop!”
Dan decides to keep the engines on. And why not? He’s got line-of-sight on the package from here. Considering that he’s still got to deliver the thing that’s cost him two ships, two lives, and probably two hours of true gameplay time, he might as well grab-and-go.
30:25 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S9CO8i5XXsQ&t=30m25s) - Having loaded his grabby hands with his “Walter White Stash”, he’s ready for the next leg of this rip-roaring, page turner of an adventure to begin.
Briefly, a dark thought cross his mind and lips. The butter-smooth landing of his Herald was actually more awkward than he realized before exiting the vehicle. He considers the possibility that he might not be able to get back in his vehicle. But hope springs eternal and he’s not afraid to show it.
“We got a shot at it. You think we don’t but YOU HAVE TO BELIEVE!”
(Hell ya Dan, you’re right about that — you gotta believe! (https://youtu.be/HXszDVhTA2I))
30:42 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S9CO8i5XXsQ&t=30m42s) - Paranoid about possible unseen threats in on the dark side of the moon near Box Retrieval HQ, he draws his weapon, inadvertently dropping the mission objective in the darkness.
30:59 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S9CO8i5XXsQ&t=30m59s) - Confirming the box is no longer in his grabby hands, a horrified utterance escapes:“We dropped the box - no!”
31:38 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S9CO8i5XXsQ&t=31m38s) - All hope seems lost, but wait... What’s that? Could it be? Saints be praised HE FINDS THE BOX and the adventure of a lifetime begins anew! You GOTTA BELIEVE, indeed!
32:05 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S9CO8i5XXsQ&t=32m5s) - Oh wait, he can’t get the cargo in his ship. He really did park it wrong and the inordinate and only partially documented efforts at attempting to complete his first Cargo game loop, that of a riveting interstellar FED EX mission, ends in a heartbreaking realization:
32:10 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S9CO8i5XXsQ&t=32m10s) - “I think this is probably... we’re stuck in a, in a spot. I hope that someone can come to Cellan and piece together what happened here. Thank you guys so much for watching!”
—
Postscript:
His YouTube description of this exercise in funkilling grinding through fatal bugs, poor choices and adventure-free missions?
“Star Citizen 3.0 Gameplay at it's finest!”
Post by: Motto on December 05, 2017, 08:10:12 AM
Post by: Greggy_D on December 05, 2017, 08:17:00 AM
(http://c8.alamy.com/comp/CT7EK4/woman-artist-on-ladder-sculpting-a-wall-made-entirely-of-butter-it-CT7EK4.jpg)
Post by: dsmart on December 05, 2017, 10:54:37 AM
Post by: dsmart on December 05, 2017, 10:59:41 AM
Post by: dsmart on December 05, 2017, 12:08:09 PM
Quote
Just a bit more "gameplay" from 3.0 in case anyone is in any doubt - this YouTuber is a fan of SC, but his exasperation is very real, and the comments make for some interesting reading. You've got to ask - how did all these bugs evade internal QA and then the vaunted Evocati when they crop up in what you would call normal, everyday game situations? I mean, they're hardly edge case, are they?
Quote
Yep in many cases it´s even worst than this...here I just watching live stream where guy with 2x R9 Fury in Crossfire most of the time heaving between 10-20 FPS...thats just confirms that it´s not an hardware issue it´s a poor CIG netcode...
Post by: dsmart on December 05, 2017, 12:36:50 PM
Post by: krylite on December 06, 2017, 02:00:58 AM
QuoteYep in many cases it´s even worst than this...here I just watching live stream where guy with 2x R9 Fury in Crossfire most of the time heaving between 10-20 FPS...thats just confirms that it´s not an hardware issue it´s a poor CIG netcode...
So much for open-house-"Florian"(shill) and his imaginary 'high' frame rates. :what: :laugh:
Post by: AncoGaming on December 06, 2017, 05:14:55 AM
However, all I wanted to say is that I well received his message. You're a good man, Derek, sometimes a bit full of yourself, obviously, but I can deal with that. Germany sends their regards.
EDIT: Almost forgot, greetings from my (Italian) wife, she's a big fan of your mentality to stay adamant even if it seems like half the world thinks you're wrong, not to speak of other audacities. If it weren't for her, I'd never have followed your twitter. I'd say see you in the 'verse but you're banned, lol.
Post by: AncoGaming on December 06, 2017, 05:27:13 AM
Everyone is mad as fuck about this. And still I saw posts in Spectrum where people were THANKING CIG to let us know about the state these builds are in. They went on and called this Open Game Development... LOL
3.0 wasn't released to PTU to show open game development, it was released for the anniversary sale and many people bought into it.
It was a year late and is still in an unplayable state but concept ships need to be sold because obviously cash flow is a problem at the current burn rate this company manoevered itself into. I hope that 3.0 doesn't get pushed into live in time for Christmas Sale for it's nowhere near ready. I simply don't have an ass-kissing enough mindset to really appreciate this 3.0 trainwreck which simply got handed over to whales to make more $$.
It's absolutely mind-blowing how much this community is able to suffer and to just let slide the worst business ideas ever while EA is still the bad guy. This is beyond reasoning, I simply don't get it. This is NOT NORMAL.
As I said before, I was always in for 1st wave testing since PTU 2.0 and did my part, but this time I'm almost begging CIG to never invite me in for that shit again. I've had it with this kind of free QA work in my spare time when I could ride my bike or play Squad to shoot people in the face. I haven't enjoyed a minute in 3.0 by now and it's not getting better. While people switch off cores and threads of their CPU (there's even a script for that, made by some die hard fan) just to make the builds freeze less, I am looking at my custom watercooled PC with a 1080Ti in it and say it's not my fucking job to work around issues which exist since many years. There's just no reason at all that it's my fault if the PU or PTU runs like shit after 5 years in development if I'm one of the folks who paid for it. I've invested to have fun, which is an OK reason to spend money. Dudes at CIG are nearing a point where they get trouble from me personally, and I don't want to be in their shoes then.
Post by: Motto on December 06, 2017, 06:07:00 AM
Post by: AncoGaming on December 06, 2017, 06:13:16 AM
Get a refund, while you still can...That's not what I want, it's not about the money. I've spent weekends more expensive than everything I've put in this game. They can take my money and choke on it, doesn't hurt me. I want them to get shit done and I don't want them to push me over the edge.
Post by: Motto on December 06, 2017, 06:15:40 AM
Post by: AncoGaming on December 06, 2017, 06:29:26 AM
Good news is that I still like to fly around in my ships, so as long as I find some joy and can shoot people in the face I am, while knowing of all the drawbacks, staying until the bitter end because I've paid for that shitshow, too.
If I get pushed over the edge, a refund won't do. I'll sue CIG for fraud, which my attorney tells me will result in making CIG a criminal organization in Germany which in turn makes all ship sales in this country illegal and therefore nonexistant. That'll be some news.
Post by: Motto on December 06, 2017, 06:34:37 AM
Post by: N0mad on December 06, 2017, 06:44:00 AM
We'd all love to see an amazing space MMO. Star Citizen sounded great when it was first conceived but it cannot be delivered, not by CIG, despite continued lies from CR to the contrary.
I'm just in this for the LOLs. This is going to be massive when it finally blows up.
Post by: dsmart on December 06, 2017, 07:10:48 AM
LOL!!
I knew that once I Tweeted that, the comments were going to explode, and the Usual Suspects would show up.
Post by: dsmart on December 06, 2017, 07:12:38 AM
I couldn't post my answer to Derek for some Javascript Reason, probably I'm just too stupid for this Forum.
However, all I wanted to say is that I well received his message. You're a good man, Derek, sometimes a bit full of yourself, obviously, but I can deal with that. Germany sends their regards.
LOL! Thanks man. :smuggo:
Quote
EDIT: Almost forgot, greetings from my (Italian) wife, she's a big fan of your mentality to stay adamant even if it seems like half the world thinks you're wrong, not to speak of other audacities. If it weren't for her, I'd never have followed your twitter. I'd say see you in the 'verse but you're banned, lol.
hehe, tell her I said Hi. Italians tend not to put up with shit; so that makes perfect sense.
ps: The site doesn't use Java - at all. So it must be something on your end I think.
Post by: dsmart on December 06, 2017, 07:21:49 AM
About the FPS issue...
Everyone is mad as fuck about this. And still I saw posts in Spectrum where people were THANKING CIG to let us know about the state these builds are in. They went on and called this Open Game Development... LOL
3.0 wasn't released to PTU to show open game development, it was released for the anniversary sale and many people bought into it.
It was a year late and is still in an unplayable state but concept ships need to be sold because obviously cash flow is a problem at the current burn rate this company manoevered itself into. I hope that 3.0 doesn't get pushed into live in time for Christmas Sale for it's nowhere near ready. I simply don't have an ass-kissing enough mindset to really appreciate this 3.0 trainwreck which simply got handed over to whales to make more $$.
It's absolutely mind-blowing how much this community is able to suffer and to just let slide the worst business ideas ever while EA is still the bad guy. This is beyond reasoning, I simply don't get it. This is NOT NORMAL.
As I said before, I was always in for 1st wave testing since PTU 2.0 and did my part, but this time I'm almost begging CIG to never invite me in for that shit again. I've had it with this kind of free QA work in my spare time when I could ride my bike or play Squad to shoot people in the face. I haven't enjoyed a minute in 3.0 by now and it's not getting better. While people switch off cores and threads of their CPU (there's even a script for that, made by some die hard fan) just to make the builds freeze less, I am looking at my custom watercooled PC with a 1080Ti in it and say it's not my fucking job to work around issues which exist since many years. There's just no reason at all that it's my fault if the PU or PTU runs like shit after 5 years in development if I'm one of the folks who paid for it. I've invested to have fun, which is an OK reason to spend money. Dudes at CIG are nearing a point where they get trouble from me personally, and I don't want to be in their shoes then.
Did you see my Tweets from last night?
https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/938196023767453697
They are basically trying to get horrid legacy code to work. Performance and networking issues aside, it never - ever - will. This is part of the reason why they dare not mess with the CryNetwork right now because 1) it's a significant amount of work 2) it can - and will - break everything
And they never did switch to LY fully. As I've heard, they owe CryTek royalties for using their engine if/when the game ever releases. The Grey area is that by never releasing, they claim they never have to pay royalties. So part of the LY switch was not only to avoid paying CryTek royalties (which would be in the millions, given how much money they have raised), but also to dump the engine support on AMZ through their work with LY.
I already wrote a blog (http://dereksmart.com/2016/12/star-citizen-irreconcilable-differences/) explaining why they didn't actually "switch" to LY fully, and that they're just pretending that they did. Switching from Google Compute to AWS was trivial, and they only did it because it's a requirement of using LY.
I have no doubt that CryTek is going to sue them at some point. But I can't say more about that atm.
Post by: Spunky Munkee on December 06, 2017, 07:22:05 AM
I applaud you for sticking with it to be honest. It's one thing investing large sums in a project having been sold on the lie that CIG will deliver the ships / game promised. Quite another to stay with it and being prepared not to see the game finished and lose your money.
We'd all love to see an amazing space MMO. Star Citizen sounded great when it was first conceived but it cannot be delivered, not by CIG, despite continued lies from CR to the contrary.
I'm just in this for the LOLs. This is going to be massive when it finally blows up.
I was writing a reply just like this and then read yours and thought"Yep , He nailed it".
I just erased my post and had to say Mega Dittos to you.
Post by: dsmart on December 06, 2017, 07:23:44 AM
Yeah I know, I'm not here for moral comfort on that matter, lol.
He's just messing with you to see how you would react. We welcome EVERYONE here, even those who don't share our views or who aren't on-board with our plan to completely destroy Star Citizen. :D
Quote
Good news is that I still like to fly around in my ships, so as long as I find some joy and can shoot people in the face I am, while knowing of all the drawbacks, staying until the bitter end because I've paid for that shitshow, too.
Yeah, it's a fun solo experience in some regard. Plus it looks great.
Quote
If I get pushed over the edge, a refund won't do. I'll sue CIG for fraud, which my attorney tells me will result in making CIG a criminal organization in Germany which in turn makes all ship sales in this country illegal and therefore nonexistant. That'll be some news.
Nah, they will just refund you. Once they do that, there is no case. At least that's how it works here in the US. Unless the govt. decides to investigate them directly.
Post by: dsmart on December 06, 2017, 07:28:41 AM
I applaud you for sticking with it to be honest. It's one thing investing large sums in a project having been sold on the lie that CIG will deliver the ships / game promised. Quite another to stay with it and being prepared not to see the game finished and lose your money.
We'd all love to see an amazing space MMO. Star Citizen sounded great when it was first conceived but it cannot be delivered, not by CIG, despite continued lies from CR to the contrary.
I'm just in this for the LOLs. This is going to be massive when it finally blows up.
Yeah, that basically sums it up for most of us here in the real world. Except that, in my case, as I've said before (http://www.dereksmart.com/forum/index.php?topic=100.msg6011#msg6011), it goes beyond the lols - because they made it that way.
Post by: Motto on December 06, 2017, 07:41:30 AM
He's just messing with you to see how you would react. :D
No, I don't do that. I wouldn't dare :smuggo:
We welcome EVERYONE here, even those who don't share our views or who aren't on-board with our plan to completely destroy Star Citizen. :D
That's true, we welcome everyone. After the welcoming, we kick those out we don't want here :D
Post by: StanTheMan on December 06, 2017, 08:17:54 AM
I couldn't post my answer to Derek for some Javascript Reason, probably I'm just too stupid for this Forum.
However, all I wanted to say is that I well received his message. You're a good man, Derek, sometimes a bit full of yourself, obviously, but I can deal with that. Germany sends their regards.
LOL! Thanks man. :smuggo:QuoteEDIT: Almost forgot, greetings from my (Italian) wife, she's a big fan of your mentality to stay adamant even if it seems like half the world thinks you're wrong, not to speak of other audacities. If it weren't for her, I'd never have followed your twitter. I'd say see you in the 'verse but you're banned, lol.
hehe, tell her I said Hi. Italians tend not to put up with shit; so that makes perfect sense.
ps: The site doesn't use Java - at all. So it must be something on your end I think.
Yep and all your efforts are appreciated....
Post by: StanTheMan on December 06, 2017, 08:24:05 AM
Get a refund, while you still can...That's not what I want, it's not about the money. I've spent weekends more expensive than everything I've put in this game. They can take my money and choke on it, doesn't hurt me. I want them to get shit done and I don't want them to push me over the edge.
Hmm - thats flawed logic. If you get a faulty product do you refuse to take it back to the shop becasue you had some fun getting it out of the packet ?
If we reward bad behaviour we condone it.
Not asking for a refund condones CRoberts actions.
Get a refund and give it to charity - do some good.
Post by: dsmart on December 06, 2017, 08:33:28 AM
We welcome EVERYONE here, even those who don't share our views or who aren't on-board with our plan to completely destroy Star Citizen. :D
That's true, we welcome everyone. After the welcoming, we kick those out we don't want here :D
:lol: :lol:
:five: :five: :five:
Post by: dsmart on December 06, 2017, 09:13:15 AM
Yes, all games have bugs. But this is a 6 year + $170M project with blatantly obvious bugs. And you have to wonder wtf was Evocati for? Let alone the fact that they claim to have an internal QA team. And this was a build that's a YEAR late already.
Flying NPC (ignore the frame rate though)
Hangar death
LOL!!
Yeah, about those books
(https://i.imgur.com/sU8GySZ.jpg)
Headless Spaceman
I don't even...
ROTFLMAO!
That's look OK to me.
Death at Sunrise
Yeah, that ain't right
Post by: Motto on December 06, 2017, 09:36:55 AM
Post by: dsmart on December 06, 2017, 10:56:01 AM
https://twitter.com/dsmart/status/938466461445754880
Quote
BREAKING: Bad news Star Citizen backers. Apparently CIG have now decided that releasing the 3.0 build as-is (it's broken beyond belief) is the best way forward. And because backers should know it's alpha and treat it like early access. Yeah.
Post by: AncoGaming on December 06, 2017, 11:15:46 AM
If we reward bad behaviour we condone it.
Not asking for a refund condones CRoberts actions.
Get a refund and give it to charity - do some good."
Yeah, you've never dealt with me as I see. Don't fucking tell me what to do, never, sit back and watch, that's your rank unless I tell you otherwise or ask for council, else you're wasting your time.
Post by: AncoGaming on December 06, 2017, 11:22:40 AM
Well, it works a bit differently in Germany. Chances are you'll see exactly how it works, lol.
Post by: nightfire on December 06, 2017, 12:08:07 PM
"Nah, they will just refund you. Once they do that, there is no case. At least that's how it works here in the US. Unless the govt. decides to investigate them directly."
Well, it works a bit differently in Germany. Chances are you'll see exactly how it works, lol.
Wow. I do hope for your sake that your attorney understands game development :D
German criminal law code, § 129:
Wer eine Vereinigung gründet, deren Zweck oder deren Tätigkeit darauf gerichtet sind, Straftaten zu begehen, oder wer sich an einer solchen Vereinigung als Mitglied beteiligt, für sie um Mitglieder oder Unterstützer wirbt oder sie unterstützt, wird gemäß § 129 Abs. 1 StGB mit Freiheitsstrafe bis zu fünf Jahren oder mit Geldstrafe bestraft. § 129 StGB stellt damit sowohl die Bildung krimineller Vereinigungen als auch die Beteiligung an ihnen unter Strafe.
In short: if you intend to have CIG recognized as a criminal organization, then hopefully you can also provide a good explanation for your financial support to them in court. Because that's how it works in Germany ;)
Post by: Motto on December 06, 2017, 01:20:17 PM
Post by: dsmart on December 06, 2017, 01:48:40 PM
https://www.twitch.tv/videos/207260429?t=15m26s
Post by: StanTheMan on December 06, 2017, 06:59:45 PM
"Hmm - thats flawed logic. If you get a faulty product do you refuse to take it back to the shop becasue you had some fun getting it out of the packet ?
If we reward bad behaviour we condone it.
Not asking for a refund condones CRoberts actions.
Get a refund and give it to charity - do some good."
Yeah, you've never dealt with me as I see. Don't fucking tell me what to do, never, sit back and watch, that's your rank unless I tell you otherwise or ask for council, else you're wasting your time.
You are not the special snowflake you imagine you are.
Post by: Spunky Munkee on December 06, 2017, 08:28:58 PM
Is everyone going to tippy toe around here now?
Post by: dsmart on December 07, 2017, 03:22:34 AM
Do we have a candidate for the Mr McNasty award?
Is everyone going to tippy toe around here now?
Don't worry, we're watching closely. The only rule around here is that there are no rules because we're all gentlemen who respect each other, regardless of differing opinions.
Post by: dsmart on December 07, 2017, 04:10:19 AM
Post by: dsmart on December 07, 2017, 05:32:34 AM
Post by: dsmart on December 07, 2017, 10:22:42 AM
Post by: dsmart on December 07, 2017, 10:32:35 AM
(https://i.imgur.com/kMwCPex.png)
Post by: dsmart on December 07, 2017, 10:38:33 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=87&v=bv-ocNay17s
Post by: David-2 on December 07, 2017, 12:44:10 PM
Yeah, that totally looks like fun. FF to 3:05 for some hilarity
AFAIK the player can't see inside those boxes - so what the heck do you suppose was in there? Schrödinger's cat wanting out?
Post by: David-2 on December 07, 2017, 12:47:24 PM
Yeah, this was totally ready
Yeah, but a lot of them are totally dups!
There're probably only 8500 unique bugs there. Maybe even only 8000.
Post by: dsmart on December 07, 2017, 01:45:57 PM
(https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/362664170254106624/388426992099262475/unknown.png)
Post by: AncoGaming on December 07, 2017, 02:49:46 PM
Not saying that these builds are anywhere near working, hell no, but some of the SC community like to duplicate entries for some reason or they don't read or report stupid shit which has no place being there etc. etc.
The whole concept of the IC has never worked and I don't even know if anyone besides some poor dude from community management did ever glance over it. Back in the days I've contributed over there because of some strange mechanic which got you selected for 1st wave testing whenever a PTU came out but nowadays no one gives a crap anymore because you can simply buy your way into Testing.
Come to think of it, this isn't even Pay2Win... this is Pay2Crash, holy crap this whole concept must be a wet dream for every publisher out there.
Post by: N0mad on December 07, 2017, 02:53:13 PM
On the other hand, they're idiots. Why on god's earth did they make a cargo crate persist when storing the character data? The guy who explained that his fix was to remove the crate only on death is an idiot - when clearly the solution was to NOT PERSIST AT ALL!? I know they've made everything overly complex, but this should be basic stuff.
It must have dawned on them by now that they lack the collective talent to make this game.
One other thing I realised - we've become very accustomed to the ATV format, and it is nice to see the people doing the work, however, it must be the only game dev diary where no game is seen being played. Normally these things have a showcase of all the latest cool gameplay with a someone talking over it. This must be the only company which gives more screen time to the employees than the actual game. I can't imagine why.
Post by: AncoGaming on December 07, 2017, 03:07:16 PM
In old Jump Point magazines I've seen design concepts of ships and game mechanics. Some dudes were really creative, drawing stuff, thinking about solutions, then these concepts were sent to Roberts and meanwhile everything grinded to a halt because he and he alone were to decide where the concpets were going. So he drew all over the stuff and it got sent back and forth until finally some details like a fuckin' space toilet or whatever got greenlit. This was the process of almost everything and this kind of stupid micromanagement (next to other stuff) has been delaying this project ever since. I've been criticising it for years.
So I simply assume the persistence of a cargo crate is part of Robert's "Vision" and if you don't like it you can pack your bags and get lost. There may be a lot of collective talent but no one's allowed to make use of it, I fear.
Post by: StanTheMan on December 07, 2017, 06:17:42 PM
I wouldn't call those devs idiots. I mean, who knows how much they are really allowed to decide?
In old Jump Point magazines I've seen design concepts of ships and game mechanics. Some dudes were really creative, drawing stuff, thinking about solutions, then these concepts were sent to Roberts and meanwhile everything grinded to a halt because he and he alone were to decide where the concpets were going. So he drew all over the stuff and it got sent back and forth until finally some details like a fuckin' space toilet or whatever got greenlit. This was the process of almost everything and this kind of stupid micromanagement (next to other stuff) has been delaying this project ever since. I've been criticising it for years.
So I simply assume the persistence of a cargo crate is part of Robert's "Vision" and if you don't like it you can pack your bags and get lost. There may be a lot of collective talent but no one's allowed to make use of it, I fear.
An experienced professional delivers a solution and then tells the boss it was the bosses input and expertise that led them to it.
Post by: Spunky Munkee on December 07, 2017, 07:27:42 PM
It wasn't the goons, the Devs, EA, or Kim Jong Il who ruined this project, It was one individual. He had plenty of money, his choice of engines, his choice not to build a custom engine to handle the load which really ruined this project and wasted tens of millions of dollars trying to overcome with workarounds and rewrites.
His lying about delivery dates, scope of the project, who the Marketing manager really was, his changing the TOS to suit his whims and needs destroyed any confidence in him. His concealing the games true progress and financial state let to further erosion of consumer confidence.
Be it due to poor decision making while leading the project or his lying and cheating the public this game is in the toilet. Chris Roberts need only look in the mirror to see the problem.
Perhaps, one day, if CIG could get rid of Roberts and if they has some cash and some continued backers support who were willing to accept a game of a much smaller scale and decreased fidelity they might get some sort of game. They would need to clear house on upper managment and get a very focused Project manager, not an incompetent wasteful boob like Roberts who couldn't run the drive through window at McDonalds.
Do I think he would step aside, NO, not unless the project was out of cash and he was about to shutter the doors. Do I think enough backers would continue supporting a reboot for years to come, some might. There are a lot of if's here. One huge conditional statement that all begins and ends with Robbers. I think he would kill it rather than see it taken away and continue and flourish without him. This would be Robbers third strike. Freelancer, Ascendant Films, and CIG.
Post by: Motto on December 08, 2017, 12:04:28 AM
Post by: N0mad on December 08, 2017, 01:15:12 AM
Secondly, when designing a system, there's the quick and easy way, or the more complex way. Chris has chosen the complex way every single time. The problem being that whilst the quick and easy way can be programmed quickly and debugged easily (new features can still be added later), doing things in a complex way can get exponentially harder. For instance, suppose I want to sell land on my empty moons. The simple solution is to divide up the land into grids (simple, since the heightmap data will be in a grid anyway), assign owners to each grid, give the grid a flat area on which to build (just assign the same height values to an area of the heightmap), allow users to "purchase" a base which spawns into a predefined location on the flat area. This is easy and CIG could have this up and running in a week. But that's too easy for Chris Roberts: he has to have a beacon which players can place themselves (given the trouble with carrying small cargo boxes this will be a problem), which they can use to claim an arbitrary area of land (more scope for errors with overlapping territories), the beacon will monitor the weather and for intruders (a whole new set of problems, firstly detecting these things, then telling the player). They can also survey the land, using as yet undefined game mechanics. They then hire a team with Pioneer (again, a whole new set of problems - how do you go about this?) which flies to the planet and builds the base (Chris will clearly demand lots of animations and building mini games etc, not to mention how to deal with variable terrain, how the player explains to the team where to spawn the module, and which module etc). Again, these are all management decisions. None of these necessarily add any gameplay which you could define as "fun" either, and it presents a much greater challenge to the coding team who have to create many more systems in the code with much more scope for things going wrong. The land mechanic isn't the only example of course, it's the just the latest example of Chris making the game far more complex than it needs to be without a second thought to how this might be implemented in the code.
Post by: Spunky Munkee on December 08, 2017, 03:08:01 AM
Just one more layer of the scam. If you make it appear to be true, making the lie so much more elaborate it becomes so much more real in the greedy minds of the cultists. I have no doubt that Robbers has studied the art of the con, how to get the mark to fulfil his dreams in his own mind. Scary.
As I said in the rest of this reply (that got wiped in a 502 error) I think things will catch up to him. Perhaps it will be like the story "Misery" and a cultist will abduct him forcing him to write code and complete the game...
Post by: N0mad on December 08, 2017, 03:23:59 AM
Post by: justme on December 08, 2017, 04:27:54 AM
i don't think we should connect the issue council with the burndown. the burndown is related to the internal Q&A, not related to the issue council. also the total number of reported bugs you could see, is from all builds, not just the actual one.
and it also needed to be said, that the majority of the bug reports are just not worth the space they need on the server. the most reports are just copies of an existing report, or simply invalid.
this is not really the fault of the citizens, but of the stupid issue council design. if you work with non q&a-people, you need to redesign that in a more intuitive way.
and when you check the description of the issue council, it seems a bit more, that this is just for giving the citizens the feeling to help, but at the end, they don't really care about.
the major problem i have with this burndown is, that they are talking about the live release. with every patch, nearly every day a new build comes up, we get new problems, but a better performance. and i think it is a bit too enthusiastic even to talk about a live release. even the 3.0 is not yet finished in the ptu. there are tons of problems to run that real stable. at the moment the most citizens can start testing around, not to think about playing a game, like in 2.6.3. as long as the 3.0 build is not fully released to the ptu, it is just nonsense to talk about a live release. and i don't know, who they wanna calm down with that misinformation?
in my opinion, they need to get rid of all the peaks in the gameplay. also the core elements, for example the traversal, should work right. and of course the complete build needs to be released. if all this is not done, it is just senseless to talk about a live release candidate.
at the moment i didn't mentioned even one single aspect, that is really working as intended. not even one. and if you watched every episode of bugsmashers and burndown, you are just asking yourself, why exactly these bugs they told us to be fixed, weeks and month ago, are still in the actual build.
Post by: Motto on December 08, 2017, 04:39:42 AM
Post by: N0mad on December 08, 2017, 04:46:24 AM
Can't wait for this **thing** that's happening in 2 weeks, coincidentally, it seems, around the time of the Holiday livestream :supaburn: :supaburn:
Post by: dsmart on December 08, 2017, 04:49:01 AM
Yeah. That picture of 11.4K issues from the Issue Council is, well, a bit misleading.
Not saying that these builds are anywhere near working, hell no, but some of the SC community like to duplicate entries for some reason or they don't read or report stupid shit which has no place being there etc. etc.
Yeah, the uniques are a little over 6K :colbert:
Post by: dsmart on December 08, 2017, 04:53:07 AM
I'm a little torn, on one hand I feel really sorry for all the devs who joined CIG thinking that this was going to the a career defining move, only to end up in development hell with Chris Roberts.
On the other hand, they're idiots. Why on god's earth did they make a cargo crate persist when storing the character data? The guy who explained that his fix was to remove the crate only on death is an idiot - when clearly the solution was to NOT PERSIST AT ALL!? I know they've made everything overly complex, but this should be basic stuff.
It must have dawned on them by now that they lack the collective talent to make this game.
We're talking about a game in which, way into the future, space men are going to be picking up and dragging boxes across landscapes. Think about that for a minute. Then ask yourself why this game play mechanic was even necessary, let alone how it makes any sense. I would think that a UI interface is all that's needed, and teleporting tech would be all that's needed to get things from A to B. But what do I know? I'm not the one pissing away millions of other people's money.
Quote
One other thing I realised - we've become very accustomed to the ATV format, and it is nice to see the people doing the work, however, it must be the only game dev diary where no game is seen being played. Normally these things have a showcase of all the latest cool gameplay with a someone talking over it. This must be the only company which gives more screen time to the employees than the actual game. I can't imagine why.
Yeah, I've talked about this many times. The closest you're ever going to see them "playing" on these shows, is on Bugsmashers.
Post by: dsmart on December 08, 2017, 04:57:34 AM
Does it really matter how good the devs are or how creative they may or may not be? In the end whether it be because of Roberts tight restrictions or Roberts dictatorial management style in the end this project was driven off the cliff and Chris Roberts was at the wheel.
Yep. That's why even companies and projects with the best minds and talent, can fail spectacularly.
Quote
It wasn't the goons, the Devs, EA, or Kim Jong Il who ruined this project, It was one individual.
Yeah, that would be that guy, Derek Smart. :laugh: :lol:
Quote
Perhaps, one day, if CIG could get rid of Roberts and if they has some cash and some continued backers support who were willing to accept a game of a much smaller scale and decreased fidelity they might get some sort of game. They would need to clear house on upper managment and get a very focused Project manager, not an incompetent wasteful boob like Roberts who couldn't run the drive through window at McDonalds.
Too late. It's crashing in spectacular ways already, and it's playing out like a complete and catastrophic loss.
Quote
Do I think he would step aside, NO, not unless the project was out of cash and he was about to shutter the doors. Do I think enough backers would continue supporting a reboot for years to come, some might. There are a lot of if's here. One huge conditional statement that all begins and ends with Robbers. I think he would kill it rather than see it taken away and continue and flourish without him. This would be Robbers third strike. Freelancer, Ascendant Films, and CIG.
After claiming to have raised over $170M, do you really think this project has a leg to stand on in order to ask for more money to do anything?
Post by: Motto on December 08, 2017, 05:32:03 AM
Post by: N0mad on December 08, 2017, 06:14:49 AM
Post by: dsmart on December 08, 2017, 06:44:23 AM
Wouldn't Early Access imply that you could simply buy the game for a normal amount of money and that they don't need pledges any longer?
No. Early access has nothing to do with money; it's a development term. Like alpha, beta etc. As the name implies, you're just buying in "early" as the project progresses. By definition, the game is currently in early access because backers have been buying in while still in development. Except that Chris hinted that it would be made an official descriptor. I have no reason to believe that they will do that because it would not only cause confusion and panic, but would also send the wrong message. It's not like describing it as something else is going to give them any leeway.
The only thing about early access - at least by Steam's own definition - is that there is the chance that the game can never be completed; as that's the nature of game development.
Post by: dsmart on December 08, 2017, 07:48:42 AM
Post by: Bubba on December 08, 2017, 08:43:09 AM
Since I know that you goons abhor conflict of any sort, especially on Internet fora, I might harmonize your views and say that they are compatible.
The problem with just carving up a moon and selling it is that then they would have to implement the ownership system and deal with the backlash of selling an apparent in-game advantage. Plus, they'd be limited to selling virtual land they've already created.
By selling a stick, they can sell an unlimited number of promises, starting with the first, namely that they will make a 3rd model of a stick. But like the pretty pictures they are selling, the code to sell that stick is already there.
Then, once they decide on the stick, they write up a description of its function that implies the implementation of dozens of features more.
So their need to grab the cash has led them to plan things in the worst way.
Charles Dickens' writing was largely determined by his funding model (serialized publication), so is the content of most successful visual art. But a funding model without a viable development plan is neither art nor business.
I like the debates of how this will end. I'm having a hard time imagining some other outcome than waking up one morning
to locked doors and lawsuits.
Post by: nightfire on December 08, 2017, 11:06:35 AM
wow, just look at that frame rate @ 1:07
Seems that he turned on Google's new AntiDerek™ protection for that video.
(https://i.imgur.com/fasfT4s.jpg)
Also, I propose that we start using the performance metrics "fpm" or "fph" when talking about SC, instead of "fps". After all, talking about the speed of a snail in mph doesn't really make much sense :cripes:
Post by: dsmart on December 08, 2017, 03:48:01 PM
Also, I propose that we start using the performance metrics "fpm" or "fph" when talking about SC, instead of "fps". After all, talking about the speed of a snail in mph doesn't really make much sense :cripes:
I like this proposal. :laugh:
Post by: dsmart on December 08, 2017, 03:48:21 PM
http://mailchi.mp/cloudimperiumgames/procedural-cities-and-the-anniversary-special-schedule-140673
Post by: dsmart on December 08, 2017, 03:56:54 PM
Quote
Episode 2
My self-imposed mission is the same as the one I completely failed to do last time: complete any one quest successfully.
Attempt #1:
I wake up in the wank pod, but something is... different. The screen is black- but not the black of a disconnect. The only things I can see in the room are internally-lit objects like the door controls. Everything else is a foggy, nearly-pitch-black void. My flashlight kind of makes a blob in the middle of the screen but refuses to illuminate anything- like the surfaces refuse to be lit. I begin to recall The Terrible Secret of Animal Crossing and wonder if perhaps, at last, I've stumbled on the true face of Star Citizen. Then I scare the shit out of myself when I exit the wankpod and come face to face with murky, shambling NPC's just standing there staring aimlessly. Well that's just good and horrifying.
Thankfully I have spawned-in-wankpod so many times I know the routes by heart at this point, so I make my way in the darkness downstairs to the ship spawner. Passing a window, the sunlight coming through illuminates the station and the areas where it touches look perfectly normal. So I guess there's some kind of ambient lighting and it's failing to render? It's really eerie. Other commandos are racing past and having no issues with sight so I assume this is something that only affects me locally. Ironically, my performance is great today- I am easily hitting 20+ fps even though I can't see anything. I did add more RAM between episodes, which may be making the difference. I make it to the spawner and suddenly the illumination snaps on throughout the station, just like that. Great? Not wanting to take this sudden visibility for granted, I decide to go shopping. They changed the PTU recently such that everyone starts with a million credits and no items, so if you want armor or guns you have to go buy them. I hadn't done it before so I figure why the hell not, how bad can it be. Clearly I'd forgotten that this is Star Citizen.
I walk into the first shop, some herp-derp armor pun I wasn't really paying attention. It's full of mannequins wearing what basically looks like recolors of the same suit over and over, and also 3 actual sets of armor. As I walk in, a commando walks up to one of the mannequins and teleports the suit onto his body. I know he didn't just equip a copy of the suit because it literally teleports, leaving the mannequin's head floating silently in the void. I kind of reflect for a minute that even with the lights on, Star Citizen isn't that much less of a horror show. Whatever, I want armor. I go over to the armor stand which is where I have my first encounter with CIG's un-fucking-believably awful shop interface.
See, in Citizenland, you don't get to click a shopkeeper and see a list of merchandise. No. You have to go mouse over the physical piece of merchandise, somewhere in the store, and "Interact" with it. All this does is tell you the name and the price. Oh good I can get a Fuckstick 5000 for just 800 credits- but what is it and what does it do? No idea. They won't tell you. If you click "Purchase" your commando will enter the unskippable 2 second animation of bringing up his Moby-Glass, and then a little purchase screen will pop up with some bullshit flavor text that also doesn't tell you what the item is or what it does. Well. Sometimes it'll pop up the purchase screen. About half the time, the act of starting the animation pulls your cursor off of the item, and then the game forgets what you were looking at, and you end up looking at the regular Moby-Glass main menu instead. Then you have to close it, another 2 second animation, recenter on the item, and reopen. You have to do this for every item you want. You want to buy clips? Yeah have fucking fun with that, you are going to have to FIND the proper weapon clip in a big pile of tiny box-shaped polygons, then hover on it to interact, then get your menu to fucking open to the right thing. For every individual clip.
But it gets better. See you can't just hit "I" for inventory and drag this shit over to your character, oh no. You have to use the already-loathsome Moby-Glass some more! There's a loadout screen with expandable rows for stuff like "Armor" and "Utility" and "Undersuit" and "Weapons." Expand one and you will see approximately seven million fucking slots, none of which are labelled. There are literally a dozen slots just for ammo clips and you bet your fucking ass Chris Roberts expects you to painstakingly fill each one with one of those clips you purchased individually. Are you thrilling at the gameplay yet? Every time you equip one, all of the menus collapse back to the start, and you get to hunt back through the tree to find where you were. And every time you "Save" your character vanishes into the ether and then reappears, now actually wearing all of the garbage you're hanging on him. That's right, everything in your inventory is rendered on your fucking character. You might be saying "Now hold on, that sounds cool- you could see what other people are carrying!" But I remind you again that this is Star Citizen, so literally all of the clips are featureless grey boxes and all of the guns are indistinguishable grey lumps- some bigger than others. And they all have a million polygons so guess what happens when a bunch of commandos run on the screen, items jingling and jangling all over the fucking place? Chris Roberts cums, I'm guessing, and your frames drop to zero. So anyway I buy armor. One piece at a time, head-chest-arms-legs-boots or whatever, then equip it laboriously. I go for the heaviest possible armor because why the hell not, if I'm going to all this trouble I might as well get something out of it.
That's when I discover that armor fucking sucks. You think Star Citizen is garbage to play normally? Try playing the game with about 50% of your monitor occluded by the inside of your own goddamn helmet. HELMETS DON'T FUCKING WORK LIKE THIS, CHRIS. Why in fuck's sake would anyone wear a helmet that prevented them from seeing? On top of that, the weight of the armor actually slows your character down. So have fun moving at a crawl while completely fucking blind, I guess! But don't worry because you won't be moving for long, since wearing armor causes your heart rate to shoot up. Did I mention that if your heart rate goes high enough, your screen starts to black out? So there's some more screen occlusion for you! I get about 20 feet down a hallway before my spaceman is wheezing like a geriatric, the tiny portion of the screen I can actually see fading in and out of blackness due to his exhaustion. Then I take the god damn armor off.
Dropping the idiotic sideshow that is inventory, I go and spawn the complimentary constellation that all PTU users get and fly it to Levski. I figure if the frames are good I will jitter my way down to the base, load up some cargo, and maybe meet Miles "Technicolor Dream Jacket" Eckhart while I'm there. Moving cargo isn't technically a mission but I will take what I can fucking get in this piece of crap. I point the nose of the ship at Levski and immediately plow face-first into the fucking planet. What?
No, really. Usually flying to planets takes 5+ minutes but I forgot that Levski is on this tiny little asteroid, that just so happens to have an atmosphere (what) and also just so happens to be covered in moon craters (WHAT) that just so happen to look exactly like actual normal-sized moon craters would when viewed from space, even though they're like 10 feet wide (WHAT). So I'd pointed my nose at the planet, boosted, and then turned away to pick up a book- reading material during trips being a common thing among commandos now. It couldn't even have been 30 seconds before my ship bounced off the planet at full speed. For a Constellation this is about 900 m/s which is about 2000 miles per hour so naturally this does literally no damage (WHAT) and my ship just spins a little bit before righting itself. Okay, I was mistaken- one of the little front-fan side finny things popped off. This does not noticeably impact the ship's performance in any way.
So I go skimming along the surface of Delamar at about 5 feet, with all of the details making it look like I'm 10 miles up, and eventually make it to the mining base Levski. This place is really hopping- there's like 5 commando ships here which for Star Citizen is the equivalent of the Stormwind auction house steps. Naturally my FPS takes a shit due to all of this activity and I end up in a kind of uncontrolled drift-crash into the main tower. Luckily my ship and the largely-glass tower come away completely unscathed from another 2000mph impact. Somehow I manage to hang onto my bandolier of clips and medpens as well. Fidelity! I request landing, one system which miraculously has not actually failed yet, and am directed to one of the big hangar pits with the door that slides open for me to lower my ship through.
I sail down in the shaft of sunlight from the overhead door, and safely touch down. Powering the ship off, I step down to the landing pad. That's odd, I can only see the areas that the sunlight is touch- oh no. The darkness. The narrow area of visibility shrinks, the door overhead sliding shut as I desperately scramble back to the ship, trying to lift off before it's too late. But I'm too slow. The light fades and I'm left in that black murk again. This time in an unfamiliar station with absolutely no illumination to guide me.
<to be continued>
PTII
Quote
So there I was, in the Levski, the asteroid mining base. With an atmosphere. Atmosphsteroid mining base? The light glitch was back, meaning that literally all I could see was the running lights of my ship, a couple of illuminated deck lights, and the sign over the elevator into the base proper. I couldn't climb or fly back out- the overhead hangar doors had closed, and- as far as I know- they don't open again until you take the elevator back. Also, for some reason, there was a strong wind whipping through the completely sealed hangar and I could see that. I guess CIG decided that "Has atmosphere" means "has strong wind currents" and they didn't want to just play sounds, so they added some particle effects? But being CIG they fucked it up, so I'm sitting in a sealed underground room and seeing blue dust race past like I'm in the middle of a hurricane. Sure whatever.
My hands were inching towards the "Kill yourself" buttons which I really didn't want to do since it'd put me back in the wankpod on Olisar and force me to start the whole stupid trip over. Just before I hit it, I noticed something- light, precious light! But only in the top-left corner of my screen. I whipped my mouse around for a minute and yes, sure enough, the game was rendering correctly but only in a 2 inch by 3 inch rectangle on the top left of my monitor. In that little window, the hangar was well lit and welcoming- everywhere else it was a bleak unlit hellscape. Well, good enough- not that much worse than it would have been running around with that helmet on. I began making my way through the base, stopping every 3 or four feet to look down and to the right so I could use my little upper-left window as a sort of scope to map the path ahead. All I wanted to do was get to a terminal and load some cargo on my damn ship. Then I'd take it somewhere well lit and try to sell it, completing my first self-imposed mission at long last. I gave up on the prospect of meeting Miles "Male Fashion Advice" Eckhart as there was just no way I was going to wander the corridors of Levski like this. Or so I thought.
Using my unfucked-vision-o-scope I carefully navigated into the first elevator which televated me into the base proper. Once inside the gloom, while still stifling, was a little easier to manage as I could at least see the running lights in the halls. Unfortunately, I couldn't see any screens or signs except through my monitor corner, so I had zero clue where I needed to go to purchase cargo. I began to wander. First through some kind of baffling customs segment- I mean, this is a game where literal news vans are equipped with guns, it would be kind of unusual if someone wasn't packing- and then into what looked like the glass tower that I had so recently plowed my ship into at 2000mph. It seemed like nobody inside was really shaken by that incident- or, if they were, I couldn't see the looks on their faces through the murk. Basically everything looked like a black hallway with a fog machine running and people standing stock-still in various positions scattered throughout it. Just a normal Star Citizen Thursday at this point really.
I wandered through a series of doors- I assume they were doors because I could see the open/close mechanisms clearly, but nothing else- and eventually found myself in an odd place. Door after door, all the mechanisms locked, but stacked so closely together that it couldn't lead to any space bigger than a closet. What the hell was this? Then it hit me- wankpods! I guess CIG intended to allow players to spawn somewhere other than Port Olisar, at some point. This was clearly a wankpod chamber, and the locked rooms were player spawn points. Too bad it was completely useless as any death would result in a quick trip back to old PO. I shrugged and moved on.
A long and pointless interlude later, I found myself in front of a cargo screen. I guess even Chris realized that manually purchasing and placing every box of cargo would be a nightmare, because this interface was actually marginally sane. Just a standard panel, you walk up and select your ship, then select the cargo. For some reason the cargo was listed in credits per hundredth of a standard cargo unit, which I found out as I almost disastrously bought a hold full of cargo for 650,000 credits or more than two thirds of what CIG gives you overall. Not there's anything else to do with that money, but I'd hate to lose it if the ship blew up or something - I had no idea if the game would remember that I'd bought the cargo when a replacement spawned, or what. So I bought a full cargo hold of hydrogen, the cheapest item in there. Not... entirely sure why a technology base that produces ships capable of flying faster than light and strong enough to fly into the ground at 2000mph would really ever need people to haul the most abundant gas in the universe. Just scoop a star, right? Maybe that would make it too much like that other space game. But hey, cargo is cargo. I loaded up and navigated the dark maze back to my ship.
After verifying that, yep, I now had a hold full of highly flammable and explosive gas containers completely unsecured, I sat down and prepared to lift off. The ship didn't move. Why wouldn't it move? I checked my keyboard- still plugged in. Mouse, still working. Ship power worked- other buttons worked, I could retract and lower the landing gear, which lead to an amusing moment as I made the constellation do push-ups off of the hangar deck. But try as I might, it wouldn't take off. Maybe with the loss of that fin and the addition of all this weight, the dreaded fidelity had finally caught up to me? Nope, chat said that it was just a bug with the Cutlass and the Constellation now- sometimes they just won't fly at all! Great. I tried exiting/entering four or five times, no dice. Finally I decided to go back into the black maze of Levski and see if I could force the ship to respawn at a control panel.
Sadly for me, all of the up-down of the landing gear action must have moved me about two inches higher off the landing pad than normal. As I stepped off of the Constellation elevator, my commando's weak ankles shattered- instantly red on my HUD. I bled to death in seconds. My dying thought, as I scrambled desperately to equip a med pack, was "If only I hadn't taken that armor off..."
I woke up back at Port Olisar.
Post by: dsmart on December 08, 2017, 04:08:07 PM
https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/comments/7iieke/300_progress_watch_update_20171208/
Quote
In render mesh management, code lock contention has been optimized. Generally, frequent CPU spikes on server and client side due to spin locks have been removed. The relevant changes mention in last week’s report as in-progress have been submitted. People on the PTU have observed the effect of a degenerated "spin lock". A spin lock used to control access to a shared resource when multiple threads are trying to work on it, such as a file or a memory space. It allows for very fast resource transfer between thread, but threads waiting for the resource are consuming a huge amount of CPU while waiting. It's useful as long as each thread doesn't wait long for the resource, otherwise it becomes a huge performance drain on all CPU cores
Post by: Motto on December 08, 2017, 04:26:20 PM
Post by: dsmart on December 08, 2017, 04:57:51 PM
Post by: dsmart on December 09, 2017, 08:35:33 AM
Well, it looks like after I posted about how spin locks were killing Star Citizen (https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/938196023767453697) performance, they apparently fixed it. I am going to send them a bill.
https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/comments/7iieke/300_progress_watch_update_20171208/QuoteIn render mesh management, code lock contention has been optimized. Generally, frequent CPU spikes on server and client side due to spin locks have been removed. The relevant changes mention in last week’s report as in-progress have been submitted. People on the PTU have observed the effect of a degenerated "spin lock". A spin lock used to control access to a shared resource when multiple threads are trying to work on it, such as a file or a memory space. It allows for very fast resource transfer between thread, but threads waiting for the resource are consuming a huge amount of CPU while waiting. It's useful as long as each thread doesn't wait long for the resource, otherwise it becomes a huge performance drain on all CPU cores
Well, bad news. CIG didn't remove any spinlocks or sleep(1) calls in the latest patch. hence the continued hangs, crashes and performance issues. there are still 600+ spinlocks and 400+ sleep(1) calls still in this patch.
They lied. Shocking, I know.
Using IDA disassembler and Hex-Rays Decompiler, you can see this a clear as day in the current and previous versions.
There is NO fixing bad architecture and design; so I don't expect ANYTHING they do to yield ANY positive results in the short term. There will be crashes, hangs, and even worse performance issues if they ever survive (they won't) long enough to progress beyond 3 barren moons.
Post by: dsmart on December 09, 2017, 08:48:15 AM
Post by: nightfire on December 09, 2017, 10:05:53 AM
Well, bad news. CIG didn't remove any spinlocks or sleep(1) calls in the latest patch.
Thanks for the heads-up… I'm going to send my resume to CIG on Monday. I don't understand much about game development and therefore can't help with the spinlocks, but I'll be darned if I can't fix those sleep(1) calls for them.
My plan is to replace them by usleep(1) calls – because who knows what else could go wrong if the number of lines in the source code changes.
Post by: StanTheMan on December 09, 2017, 10:29:44 AM
wow, just look at that frame rate @ 1:07
He has an inane grin on his chops and then you look at his eyes and see the way his subconscious mind is screaming at him ... "Eeesa compleeetta crappa -- getta a fanculo refundo !
Post by: nightfire on December 09, 2017, 10:44:05 AM
Sarsapilla is back with one of his 3.0 write-upsQuoteI wake up in the wank pod, but something is... different. The screen is black- but not the black of a disconnect. The only things I can see in the room are internally-lit objects like the door controls. Everything else is a foggy, nearly-pitch-black void. My flashlight kind of makes a blob in the middle of the screen but refuses to illuminate anything- like the surfaces refuse to be lit. I begin to recall The Terrible Secret of Animal Crossing and wonder if perhaps, at last, I've stumbled on the true face of Star Citizen. Then I scare the shit out of myself when I exit the wankpod and come face to face with murky, shambling NPC's just standing there staring aimlessly. Well that's just good and horrifying.
This is indeed horrifying and reminds me of some nightmares I had as a kid.
I once read in an article about neurology that there are 3 interesting effects many people experience in their dreams. The scientific reasons for these are still unknown:
1. Trying to illuminate a dark area. Light switches don't work when turning on the light in a dark room. Sometimes flashlights, candles or existing lighting might work, but will only produce a dim and useless glow which doesn't help to illuminate anything.
2. Written text is illegible. Text on signs, billboards etc. is unrecognizable or appears mirrored, upside down or otherwise obfuscated. Text may change each time one looks at it. It may also be difficult to write anything: a pen writes something else than what was intended, constant typos on computer keyboards etc.
3. Looking at oneself in the mirror. Ones own likeness appears blurred, strange or horrifying, and may look different when looking away and back into the mirror.
So I think that if CIG fails to make a smooth running MMO with Star Citizen, at least they have all the tech in place to create an epic, high-fidelity AAA space horror game. In this scenario, the old adage would even be appropriate: "it's not 1000+ bugs, it's 1000+ features" :laugh:
Post by: StanTheMan on December 09, 2017, 11:06:58 AM
Sarsapilla is back with one of his 3.0 write-upsQuoteI wake up in the wank pod, but something is... different. The screen is black- but not the black of a disconnect. The only things I can see in the room are internally-lit objects like the door controls. Everything else is a foggy, nearly-pitch-black void. My flashlight kind of makes a blob in the middle of the screen but refuses to illuminate anything- like the surfaces refuse to be lit. I begin to recall The Terrible Secret of Animal Crossing and wonder if perhaps, at last, I've stumbled on the true face of Star Citizen. Then I scare the shit out of myself when I exit the wankpod and come face to face with murky, shambling NPC's just standing there staring aimlessly. Well that's just good and horrifying.
This is indeed horrifying and reminds me of some nightmares I had as a kid.
I once read in an article about neurology that there are 3 interesting effects many people experience in their dreams. The scientific reasons for these are still unknown:
1. Trying to illuminate a dark area. Light switches don't work when turning on the light in a dark room. Sometimes flashlights, candles or existing lighting might work, but will only produce a dim and useless glow which doesn't help to illuminate anything.
2. Written text is illegible. Text on signs, billboards etc. is unrecognizable or appears mirrored, upside down or otherwise obfuscated. Text may change each time one looks at it. It may also be difficult to write anything: a pen writes something else than what was intended, constant typos on computer keyboards etc.
3. Looking at oneself in the mirror. Ones own likeness appears blurred, strange or horrifying, and may look different when looking away and back into the mirror.
So I think that if CIG fails to make a smooth running MMO with Star Citizen, at least they have all the tech in place to create an epic, high-fidelity AAA space horror game. In this scenario, the old adage would even be appropriate: "it's not 1000+ bugs, it's 1000+ features" :laugh:
and they made one of those NPCs look like Croberts ..only slimmer
Post by: David-2 on December 09, 2017, 11:26:11 AM
Post by: N0mad on December 09, 2017, 11:28:46 AM
@dsmart - Not sure what problem you're highlighting with that flipped Cutlass - it's got the same polygon count, the same fidelity. What more is needed?
Looks like the guy was on the Australian servers :laugh:
Post by: dsmart on December 09, 2017, 11:52:11 AM
ps: These clowns think that carrying cargo containers around - manually - is the game of the future :vince:
Post by: Spunky Munkee on December 09, 2017, 12:38:28 PM
See, now they don't need to fix anything. What one was a bunch of random bugs is now a core game feature ;-)
Post by: N0mad on December 09, 2017, 01:54:03 PM
I got it. Market it as everything they already did but add that the Vanduul have infected everything, even our sense of reality to the point where reality breaks. Things stutter, ships crash or time changes. Some reality shifts are deadly, others leave you with a very real sense of Deja vu.
See, now they don't need to fix anything. What one was a bunch of random bugs is now a core game feature ;-)
Nah, just replace the player models with a Goat and rename it Goat Citizen. Job done.
Post by: N0mad on December 09, 2017, 01:56:28 PM
ps: These clowns think that carrying cargo containers around - manually - is the game of the future :vince:
This is Star Citizen where they are breaking new ground with never before seen features which no other game has. Nevermind the fact that there's a reason no other game has these features. I don't think Cargo Carrying Simulator was ever going to be a starter.
Post by: N0mad on December 09, 2017, 01:59:36 PM
Post by: Spunky Munkee on December 09, 2017, 03:15:40 PM
People usually don't want to hump boxes in real life, why would they want a game that makes you waste time traveling around to grab a box to bring it somewhere? Forget the game and do your wife a favor and do the shopping for her.
Post by: StanTheMan on December 09, 2017, 06:55:05 PM
While we're on the subject of cargo boxes:
(http://www.minkhollowfarm.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/03/rrare48-4.jpg)
Post by: JoeBloggs on December 10, 2017, 12:32:42 AM
Funny part starts at 2:00m where Curly tries to transport the icebox...
Post by: dsmart on December 10, 2017, 07:15:12 AM
Post by: dsmart on December 10, 2017, 08:03:07 AM
https://clips.twitch.tv/StylishTangentialPandaCeilingCat
Post by: dsmart on December 10, 2017, 02:18:30 PM
Post by: dsmart on December 12, 2017, 07:22:44 AM
https://robertsspaceindustries.com/spectrum/community/SC/forum/4/thread/ptu-build-status
(https://i.imgur.com/o0kUk3u.png)
Take a look at this rig
Quote
Win 10 Pro
Intel Core i7 6700k @ 4.00ghz
Noctua NH-D14 Cpu cooler
Asus Maximus VIII HERO
MSI GeForce GTX 1070 Gaming X 8GB GDDR5
Kingston 16GB (2x8gb) HyperX Fury DDR4 2666 MHz
EVGA 750W SuperNOVA 750 G2, modular 80 PLUS Gold
Samsung 960 EVO 500GB M.2 NVMe SSD
Samsung 256GB 850 PRO Series SSD 2.5"
That goes with this report on that patch:
https://robertsspaceindustries.com/spectrum/community/SC/forum/4/thread/star-citizen-alpha-3-0-0ai-ptu-681830-patch-notes/766102
Post by: Motto on December 12, 2017, 12:52:12 PM
Clearly he doesn't know about CIG specs.
Post by: lurker_404 on December 12, 2017, 01:09:59 PM
Post by: Motto on December 12, 2017, 02:11:07 PM
Post by: dsmart on December 12, 2017, 07:15:31 PM
Post by: dsmart on December 12, 2017, 07:18:39 PM
https://robertsspaceindustries.com/spectrum/community/SC/forum/4/thread/star-citizen-alpha-3-0-0ak-ptu-685145-patch-notes
Post by: dsmart on December 12, 2017, 07:51:21 PM
https://clips.twitch.tv/UnsightlyGoldenSnoodSuperVinlin
Post by: AncoGaming on December 13, 2017, 07:33:18 AM
Everyone who was ever testing PTU knows that sometimes, you're getting a build which you think can go live any day, and after the next update it's such a mess that you think everything's broken, back to the drawing board. That's why in the past, only a few idiots like me, who really have a high pain tolerance, could be arsed to go through all this in their spare time.
The fact that you now can just pay to get abused like that, and that people are qeueing up willing to actually pay for it... that truly amazes me.
EDIT:
Having said that, I am really upset about the persistent issue with 100% CPU spikes which lead to terrible frame drops to zero. I wasn't helping to get CIG to prioritize network only to encounter that they're struggling with basic engine issues after five fucking years.
Derek, do me a favour and please help to fix that sh... OH! You already did!... Hahaha... what a time to be alive.
Post by: dsmart on December 13, 2017, 08:06:04 AM
LOL, it's not getting worse with each patch.
Everyone who was ever testing PTU knows that sometimes, you're getting a build which you think can go live any day, and after the next update it's such a mess that you think everything's broken, back to the drawing board. That's why in the past, only a few idiots like me, who really have a high pain tolerance, could be arsed to go through all this in their spare time.
The fact that you now can just pay to get abused like that, and that people are qeueing up willing to actually pay for it... that truly amazes me.
EDIT:
Having said that, I am really upset about the persistent issue with 100% CPU spikes which lead to terrible frame drops to zero. I wasn't helping to get CIG to prioritize network only to encounter that they're struggling with basic engine issues after five fucking years.
Derek, do me a favour and please help to fix that sh... OH! You already did!... Hahaha... what a time to be alive.
:lol: :lol:
Post by: premiumnugz on December 13, 2017, 08:34:45 AM
(http://i65.tinypic.com/2aijay9.jpg)
"Quad Core CPU"
Looks like it'll run on my iPhone then :laugh:
Post by: dsmart on December 14, 2017, 06:30:45 PM
(https://i.imgur.com/NSGO92q.png)
Post by: nightfire on December 14, 2017, 08:21:15 PM
Any day now :c00lbert:According to the 80/20 rule, they might have only spent 20% of the total time for 3.0 so far. Watch out, the 2 last blockers might take the other 80% to fix
Post by: dsmart on December 15, 2017, 06:35:12 AM
Any day now :c00lbert:According to the 80/20 rule, they might have only spent 20% of the total time for 3.0 so far. Watch out, the 2 last blockers might take the other 80% to fix
Oh, you think they're going to fix them, huh? :allears:
Post by: Flashwit on December 15, 2017, 02:11:00 PM
Multiple of those criticals could be related to "game runs like shit" but that's not technically a blocker if you don't want it to be.
Post by: dsmart on December 15, 2017, 06:36:45 PM
https://robertsspaceindustries.com/schedule-report
Quote
The team worked on the range-based update culling on the server, but this is proving rather difficult and will likely need more coordinated work on the game side to get working properly.
Post by: Kyrt on December 15, 2017, 11:21:23 PM
LOL!!!
https://robertsspaceindustries.com/schedule-reportQuoteThe team worked on the range-based update culling on the server, but this is proving rather difficult and will likely need more coordinated work on the game side to get working properly.
It's late...I'm tired...and it's a long day....
But isn't "range based data culling" a server side calculation that relies just on accurate location data being passed from the client to the server and the server running a simple rangefinding script? It's a little unclear how more work on the game side would improve matters
Post by: dsmart on December 16, 2017, 03:50:45 AM
LOL!!!
https://robertsspaceindustries.com/schedule-reportQuoteThe team worked on the range-based update culling on the server, but this is proving rather difficult and will likely need more coordinated work on the game side to get working properly.
It's late...I'm tired...and it's a long day....
But isn't "range based data culling" a server side calculation that relies just on accurate location data being passed from the client to the server and the server running a simple rangefinding script? It's a little unclear how more work on the game side would improve matters
No. It's not a script. It's just a calculation that prevents the server from sending data to all clients that it doesn't need to.
e.g. 5 clients within 1km of each other, don't need to know about, nor get packet information about the other 3 clients that are > 1km of each other
That's just a simplified version of the explanation It is very complex, and can break everything - as they are now finding out.
I remember when that was coming in 2.6.1 (https://www.redacted.tv/star-citizen-news-patch-2-6-1-info/)
Quote
2.6.1 FEATURES
So let’s talk about this incremental patch 2.6.1 the, it’s not a major one but should be there to fix some larger problems with bugs & some balance. Weapon’s not firing, Pausing gameplay on Echo 11, improved stability and some Networking improvements:
NETWORK – BIND CULLING
I believe currently in a given area the client requests information about everyone on the server, this will on request info that is relevant to your client I think. Hopefully improving Client & server performance.
NETWORK – SERIALIZED VARIABLE
This is an improvement really to optimize network bandwidth and help with general efficency.
Variables sent to the server/clients will be detected if they have changed since the last time they were sent. This should also reduce chance for disconnections too.
Both of these are a step towards more clients into an instance & important for the netcode coming in the next major updates.
(https://imgur.com/OVeS6RB.jpg)
Post by: Bubba on December 16, 2017, 06:52:52 AM
"Seamless" surface-to-orbit transitions, eh? Well if it's a continuous broken mess, I guess so.
Post by: dsmart on December 16, 2017, 07:06:05 AM
When your design has people and npcs running around a space station, while ships battle each other outside, it is very complex, and something you design the game around, not what you add as an afterthought.
"Seamless" surface-to-orbit transitions, eh? Well if it's a continuous broken mess, I guess so.
They basically started by putting the cart before the horse. In fact, the cart was down hill.
Post by: DemonInvestor on December 16, 2017, 08:38:53 AM
When your design has people and npcs running around a space station, while ships battle each other outside, it is very complex, and something you design the game around, not what you add as an afterthought.
"Seamless" surface-to-orbit transitions, eh? Well if it's a continuous broken mess, I guess so.
They basically started by putting the cart before the horse. In fact, the cart was down hill.
A mere cart? Good man you must be blind! It has to be at least the most beautiful horse powered transport you could lay your eyes upon!
Here's a pic on how it would actually look if it was a "cart": http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-PP3HuYlWkCE/Uw95YAuzLAI/AAAAAAAAFHk/3XDksBX9IkA/s1600/Leichenwagen.JPG :smuggo:
I'd really like to hear what the X-Universe guys have to say about the whole project.
Post by: dsmart on December 16, 2017, 02:33:43 PM
https://www.twitch.tv/videos/209753648?t=02h12m31s
Post by: Backer42 on December 16, 2017, 06:45:08 PM
Star Citizen stream clip of the latest patch. It's good. Watch for like 2 mins.Yeah, Windows 10 isn't very stable.
https://www.twitch.tv/videos/209753648?t=02h12m31s
Post by: dsmart on December 17, 2017, 03:45:53 AM
Yeah, Windows 10 isn't very stable.
:vince: :laugh:
:five: :five: :five:
Post by: dsmart on December 22, 2017, 07:48:40 AM
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DRp8sGoXUAIdent.jpg)
Christmas came early!! :laugh: :supaburn: :five: :thurman: :sandance: :toot:
Post by: Flashwit on December 22, 2017, 09:13:15 AM
Post by: dsmart on December 22, 2017, 10:11:43 AM
Also..
https://twitter.com/dsmart/status/944248556977905670
Post by: justme on December 22, 2017, 11:37:13 AM
fx 8-core @4.2ghz, 32gb ddr3 2400 ram, gtx 960 2gb, sc on intel optane ssd (pci-e 2.0)
on a empty server i have exact 60fps (i set the limit to that),
on full server i have 30-35 fps, exept levski. there i have 25 fps.
someone in spectrum said, but i don't know if that could be true,
that AWS set the status of sc from 5 to 2. so they get a better performance.
there is a weird bug, while using the gladius models. if u enter them, the fps is
reduced minus 15-20fps. if you get out, they come back. so there is an issue with
that.
they will change server population to test stability from 30-80. my tested servers were
40 ppl, nearly everybody in a different ship, also the bigger ones.
so yes. this was a real good patch.
some others have issues. the most i know with problems are running an intel i5. they
fall down 15fps sometimes.
i think if you would tweet, that the former crytek guys in frankfurt did a good job,
they are just working on that topic they said, the community would be shocked so
damn hard :D
(checked it with r_displayport 3 and fps counter from geforce.)
Post by: Motto on December 23, 2017, 04:07:48 AM
Post by: Backer42 on December 23, 2017, 04:11:28 AM
Even Reddit is having doubts: 3.0 going Live tomorrow is probably a big mistake (https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/comments/7lnyaz/30_going_live_tomorrow_is_probably_a_big_mistake/)Is there going to be free flight?
Post by: dsmart on December 23, 2017, 05:04:50 AM
Post by: dsmart on December 23, 2017, 06:57:08 AM
I might hold out for the upcoming netcode optimisations before diving in. (https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/comments/7lmpgu/30_live_tomorrow/drnhrzt/?st=jbjek6gt&sh=7874ca85)
Post by: StanTheMan on December 23, 2017, 09:32:15 AM
my system:
fx 8-core @4.2ghz, 32gb ddr3 2400 ram, gtx 960 2gb, sc on intel optane ssd (pci-e 2.0)
on a empty server i have exact 60fps (i set the limit to that),
on full server i have 30-35 fps, exept levski. there i have 25 fps.
someone in spectrum said, but i don't know if that could be true,
that AWS set the status of sc from 5 to 2. so they get a better performance.
there is a weird bug, while using the gladius models. if u enter them, the fps is
reduced minus 15-20fps. if you get out, they come back. so there is an issue with
that.
they will change server population to test stability from 30-80. my tested servers were
40 ppl, nearly everybody in a different ship, also the bigger ones.
so yes. this was a real good patch.
some others have issues. the most i know with problems are running an intel i5. they
fall down 15fps sometimes.
i think if you would tweet, that the former crytek guys in frankfurt did a good job,
they are just working on that topic they said, the community would be shocked so
damn hard :D
(checked it with r_displayport 3 and fps counter from geforce.)
You have very low standards.
Post by: dsmart on December 23, 2017, 01:13:16 PM
https://robertsspaceindustries.com/comm-link//16348-Star-Citizen-Alpha-300
Post by: nightfire on December 23, 2017, 02:29:23 PM
Well, 3.0 has been released to live, folks. Go get it. Or not :supaburn:
You forgot to mention your referral code :laugh:
Post by: Greggy_D on December 23, 2017, 06:09:12 PM
Post by: randomness on December 23, 2017, 06:29:51 PM
Well, 3.0 has been released to live, folks. Go get it. Or not :supaburn:
https://robertsspaceindustries.com/comm-link//16348-Star-Citizen-Alpha-300
Stop shilling the game Derek, you're encroaching on the territory of people who have given up their day jobs to do that.
Your post is literally taking food off their table. :argh:
Post by: dsmart on December 25, 2017, 06:35:53 AM
That shit is never getting fixed. I wrote already (http://dereksmart.com/forums/reply/6078/) that they had reached zero barrier on what they could with the game and engine.
The End
From VirtualCaptain over on SA
Just a reminder on what 3.0 promised vs delivered:
Added
Walk anywhere on
Seamless landings [super]1 (https://youtu.be/Z-3YBuFI3iI?t=43m45s)[/super]
Immersive landing pad and traffic control from NPCs [super]1 (https://youtu.be/Z-3YBuFI3iI?t=49m27s)[/super]
Day and night cycles [super]1 (https://youtu.be/Z-3YBuFI3iI?t=1800)[/super]
Barely qualifies
Expand the Stanton System (two moons isn't much) [super]1 (http://imgur.com/a/1yjPK#BO07hBV)[/super]
Cargo Transport (Couple missions, no actual profession) [super]1 (http://imgur.com/a/1yjPK#BO07hBV)[/super]
Totally missing
Basic mining [super]1 (https://youtu.be/Uhra2SETLNs?t=2408)[/super]
Trading [super]1 (http://imgur.com/a/1yjPK#BO07hBV) 2 (https://clips.twitch.tv/AcceptableArborealBottleKappa)[/super]
Piracy [super]1 (http://imgur.com/a/1yjPK#BO07hBV)[/super]
Mercenary [super]1 (http://imgur.com/a/1yjPK#BO07hBV)[/super]
Bounty hunting [super]1 (http://imgur.com/a/1yjPK#BO07hBV) 2 (https://youtu.be/0pxlhEUFUPw?t=1067)[/super]
Diverse NPC actions [super]1 (https://youtu.be/Z-3YBuFI3iI?t=1800)[/super]
Economy driven missions [super]1 (https://youtu.be/Z-3YBuFI3iI?t=1800)[/super]
Increased mission complexity [super]1 (https://youtu.be/Z-3YBuFI3iI?t=1800)[/super]
Search "patch", "3.1", "3.2", "3.3", or "4.0" on https://starcitizentracker.github.io/ (https://starcitizentracker.github.io/) for dreams not yet shattered.
Post by: nightfire on December 25, 2017, 10:28:28 AM
Next, we'll see citizen self-policing and harassment of anyone on Reddit who dared to start up the game and make a politically incorrect move, such as spawning the wrong (server CPU intensive) ship or flying off in the wrong direction, thus ruining performance for everyone else. Because, remember, none of this is CIG's fault.
Oh, and don't forget: this game is supposed to be "fun"!
Post by: dsmart on December 25, 2017, 02:11:15 PM
He's basically telling all backers: if you want to be a good Shitizen, then don't bother the servers with the meaningless stuff you've bought this game for, like flying around and blowing things up. Heck, save the environment and stay at home in your wankpod, you piece of Cit.
Next, we'll see citizen self-policing and harassment of anyone on Reddit who dared to start up the game and make a politically incorrect move, such as spawning the wrong (server CPU intensive) ship or flying off in the wrong direction, thus ruining performance for everyone else. Because, remember, none of this is CIG's fault.
Oh, and don't forget: this game is supposed to be "fun"!
Yes, that's precisely it. It's amazing to me, honestly. No Chris Roberts disaster would be complete without his legendary blame shifting
Post by: Bubba on December 25, 2017, 02:23:00 PM
Oh wait, I guess that amounts to the same thing.
"Of course they'll love me taking control from them when they're flying NOE to show some pointless turret shooting meteors."
The game mechanics can only work if the players belong to the same cult.
Post by: David-2 on December 25, 2017, 03:41:56 PM
Consider the next to last paragraph describing the difficulty of figuring out performance issues on PCs with special reference to that it is "likely" due to the "game paging out to disk because of low memory" ...
WTF? People have been writing desktop Windows applications to be delivered to thousands and thousands of differently configured computers for a couple of decades now - I know I have! - and we know how to do this.
(Pro Tip: It isn't "other apps in memory" unless one of those apps is Photoshop with a gigapixel image loaded.)
Furthermore, seeing if your appllication "is paging out to disk because of low memory" is, unlike graphics, something easily simulated in the lab with a handful of machines.
(It occurs to me that I wonder if in fact he's just trying to sell some of those Optane bundles to clueless Citizens? You're paging to disk on your 8Gb system, dude - you need that fast logoed Optane!)
Finally, in a performance-sensitive application you build in the telemetry in advance because you need it from the beginning - and Windows has fantastic resources for this (e.g., performance metrics and ETW, to name two things).
BTW: I think it's time for Chris to retire the word "polish" as applied to the development process. It just isn't meaningful the way he uses it.
Post by: Backer42 on December 25, 2017, 08:51:23 PM
BTW: I think it's time for Chris to retire the word "polish" as applied to the development process. It just isn't meaningful the way he uses it.
He is a con artist posing in front of CryEngine code (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=165H_5jgE5g) pretending to be a developer, while in truth he needs help to operating his Personal Computer (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZWq8ynUq7wM). In December 2015 during the famous holiday livestream this became blatantly clear.
So while you and I might have a pretty good idea how paging and virtual memory works, this guy surely doesn't have a single clue about technology. CryTek provided him all the materials he used to pretend being a video game developer. He is just mingling words to make him sound experienced. Any proper HR agent would see through that at the first interview and never hire this guy.
Some of the blame has go to at the dishonestly of CryTek helping essentially a n00b to raise money at the peak of the crowdfunding hype. If CryTek had openly stated their kind of involvement when the "industry veteran" was already spreading lies at interviews during 2012, many early backers would have never funded this. But CryTek were just as greedy about cashing in on the hype as was CIG. In the end it wasn't Chris alone creating the delusion resulting in over 6 million dollars of funds. It was the Germans, who put him into AAA video game development, where he never belonged.
Post by: N0mad on December 25, 2017, 11:06:11 PM
I can't wait for all the stories about what's really going on inside CIG to come out.
Post by: AncoGaming on December 25, 2017, 11:54:08 PM
When it came to PTU, some Evocati were saying that it's not ready yet. I then saw for myself that it was nowhere near a PTU build as we knew it. But hey, Anniversary Sale, so fuck it and roll it out to people who've mostly paid their way into testing, many of them butthurt because they weren't in 1st wave as advertized and promised. (the according thread on Spectrum is long deleted by moderators)
I've already written that it would be disastrous to make this failure of cut-down and unplayable features available to everyone too soon a while ago in here and on Spectrum. I've even gotten upvotes over there for my opinion and haven't been attacked from white knights because well... we pretty much all understood that 3.0 needs more time.
What came next was a big mistake: Let everyone have it, because Christmas Sale.
Of course, you can still say it's PTU, so naturally it isn't fun to play with. I know about all that. But it still came too soon as an Alpha for an Alpha of broken gameplay, worst space combat physics ever, messed up keyboard mappings, missing but long promised features and overall instability, not to mention the terrible performance.
The actual build right now is something which should go out to Evocati in the near future after internal QA as a better iteration. I'd be OK with that. But no, they wipe 2.6.2 from the servers and let the world see that they've achieved almost nothing, working on 3.0 after being a year late just to make some cash during Christmas Sale.
This is wrong on so many levels. :cripes:
Post by: Bubba on December 26, 2017, 01:11:19 AM
1. We have to release something.
2. It worked internally, since our testing didn't involve generating lots of objects or playing on real world machines.
3. We will be lucky if we fix some of these problems by March.
ED got some headlines this holiday season when an overambitious commander miscalculated and ran out of fuel way out in the black. The headlines and the twitch streams focused on the rescue operation to bring her the fuel needed to make it back to known space.
SC is going to run out of funding at some point, and by some stunt - selling stock in the game, planets, dreadnoughts - will try to get people to rescue them. But these "Fuel whales" will only be helping Roberts drive the project deeper into oblivion.
Post by: DemonInvestor on December 26, 2017, 02:50:09 AM
And i'm really puzzled how a long time developer never thought before about what happens when a Cargo transport goes boom and physically calculated loot gets spilled into the world. I guess they're not even thinking about what happens when their culling container explode and players should get spilled into space - or they simply open up an ramp...
Post by: Motto on December 26, 2017, 04:21:15 AM
PTU: The reason why SC is bad is because its on PTU its the TESTING universe get it?!
Live release: OK the reason why SC is bad is because its PRE ALPHA, maybe ALPHA games aren't for you , try taking a mental break from the game? otherwise its probably your computer specs and if its not that, the reason why its bad currently is because they released it EARLY because the backers didnt have enough faith and were IMPATIENT so CIG couldnt focus on polishing it
Post by: dsmart on December 26, 2017, 04:43:05 AM
It's a mess, really. I still can't believe it.
When it came to PTU, some Evocati were saying that it's not ready yet. I then saw for myself that it was nowhere near a PTU build as we knew it. But hey, Anniversary Sale, so fuck it and roll it out to people who've mostly paid their way into testing, many of them butthurt because they weren't in 1st wave as advertized and promised. (the according thread on Spectrum is long deleted by moderators)
I've already written that it would be disastrous to make this failure of cut-down and unplayable features available to everyone too soon a while ago in here and on Spectrum. I've even gotten upvotes over there for my opinion and haven't been attacked from white knights because well... we pretty much all understood that 3.0 needs more time.
What came next was a big mistake: Let everyone have it, because Christmas Sale.
Of course, you can still say it's PTU, so naturally it isn't fun to play with. I know about all that. But it still came too soon as an Alpha for an Alpha of broken gameplay, worst space combat physics ever, messed up keyboard mappings, missing but long promised features and overall instability, not to mention the terrible performance.
The actual build right now is something which should go out to Evocati in the near future after internal QA as a better iteration. I'd be OK with that. But no, they wipe 2.6.2 from the servers and let the world see that they've achieved almost nothing, working on 3.0 after being a year late just to make some cash during Christmas Sale.
This is wrong on so many levels. :cripes:
Yup, pretty much. Remember back in the Summer when I wrote that sources said it needed at least 6 months of polish for it to be out of QA and even to Evocati? Then they released it to build hype for the Q4 sales.
He doesn't care anymore. He already got the money, and pretty much everyone knows the project is FUBAR. What's left now is to see how long it takes before the next level of the disaster falls into place.
Post by: Kyrt on December 26, 2017, 06:38:54 AM
In a nutshell (from Reddit):
PTU: The reason why SC is bad is because its on PTU its the TESTING universe get it?!
Live release: OK the reason why SC is bad is because its PRE ALPHA, maybe ALPHA games aren't for you , try taking a mental break from the game? otherwise its probably your computer specs and if its not that, the reason why its bad currently is because they released it EARLY because the backers didnt have enough faith and were IMPATIENT so CIG couldnt focus on polishing it
To an extent....this is true.
I'd be more concerned with the incompetence, mismanagement and poor game design decisions that have created numerous technical difficulties that will be expensive and time consuming to correct as well as delayed the games development, but also have created gameplay that promises to be far from fun in many aspects.
I don't think...as one example...that the corridor walking simulator we saw before Xmas offers much in the way of rivetting gameplay. Technical issues can be solved given enough time and money but poor design lingers forever
Post by: AncoGaming on December 26, 2017, 06:52:05 AM
It's still kinda cool if you for example fly from Port Olisar to Delamar, seamlessly quantum traveling and landing at Levski. If you know the way by heart, that is, because planetary waypoints are still disappearing randomly. Or you take your Freelancer, pick up and deliver a package after a brief fight with AI ships.
This really is fun and it looks great if you happen to get on a fresh server, not to mention the great job some dudes in England did with the music and sounds.
I mean, this all has potential. Potential to become something worth spending 30-60$ for. Or more if you absolutely want to, I have no problem with whales. Who am I to forbid them spending money?
It could have all been fine if CIG/RSI would have honestly said: "Listen, folks, thanks a lot for your overwhelming support, we really appreciate it, but please be aware that the scope of this game we're making for you will stay within certain boundaries because it simply has to. We will not try to reinvent the wheel when it comes to game development, however, we'll do our best to deliver something you and your friends will enjoy and are hiring great talents to help us along the way. We don't know when it will be done but we will let you test builds from time to time and evaluate your feedback."
End of story, no impact marketing, no lofty promises, no giant money laundering scheme across the globe, and together with professional community management even Dr. Smart would still have his 250$ invested and probably would write a blog to help solve some engine issues.
Well, we all know how it turned out instead.
And personally, I am disappointed how a cult of brainless manchilds is allowed to mostly represent the backers and wasn't ever stopped from dreaming up a never before seen level of scope/feature creep while a marketing team that makes EA look like girl scouts, selling cookies, aggressively destroys development cycles and pipelines to milk the last fucking cent out of regular people who don't know any better.
Even more, I am sad that no violently pissed-of mob of backers who've had enough did ever show up at Gamescom and let some chairs fly to get management back on track like we Europeans are known to do if something goes sideways. Instead, they're all qeueing up to kiss Chris&Sandies ass like teenage girls at a Justin Bieber concert. DISGUSTING!
Post by: jwh1701 on December 26, 2017, 08:32:54 AM
Post by: Kyrt on December 26, 2017, 10:27:48 AM
My frustration and sadness with SC as continued to grow greatly since 2016. I love scifi and have been playing elite dangerous/horizon since release. When SC was first announced I was ecstatic just looking over what would be available in game that was promised at 6 mill. I used to not like Derek Smart's posts concerning SC but after seeing the horrific progress and now the 3.0 release its apparent that something is greatly amiss. As much as I wanted to play SC I do not like to be deceived and decided to research more and look over all the information provided by Derek. At this point I and have come to agree with him on all aspects concerning development of SC. Looking over the UK fillings and seeing all the land, tank sales I truly believe the money is long gone and was not put into the development of the game. Looking over the reddit and SC forums is truly mind boggling over the 3.0 release. I do not understand how they can continue to think this is progress taking into account the time and money spent. Considering Frontier did elite dangerous for around 8mill and a few staff from what I could find and comparing 3.0 with 150 mill plus spent is a total disaster.
Game development...especially so-called AAA game development....can be tremendously expensive.
And often, you can look at a game and wonder..."Where did the money go?"
You can get games like ED and NMS and DU and more which produce great games for $10 -$30 million.
But then you have games like GTA V and SC which can reach two or three times that figure, or more, but not offer appreciably more.
Where does the money go?
To borrow a word...oftentimes, it is fidelity. Better graphics...better animations...better music and sound....more trigger points on the game...more interactions....more entities.
All of this costs money. Is it worthwhile? Arguably yes...arguably no.
CIG has raised $174 million and counting. It has a staff of around 458.
That's an awkward figure...too many staff to develop the game cheaply and efficiently, but too few to develop the game with the fidelity and detail Chris Roberts is aiming for while having enough money to tempt him into doing that and too much money to allow them to plead poverty.
Post by: jwh1701 on December 26, 2017, 01:30:52 PM
I appreciate the response but its hard to share the thought the money has been used properly and only for SC. After pouring through Derek's information and the paper trails that have been uncovered in Chris's questionable film industry investments I have trouble sharing the idea that the backer money has been used wisely. What makes makes suspect even more is they stated while back even if money dried up they had plenty to finish the game. But they are continually are adding things to sell in game and outside of the game. I have been on the development side for years at IBM and other companies and understand costs and delays. It's just disheartening as I fully bought into Chris's pitch from the get go. For myself to see what has transpired over the past two years with SC its hard to trust or believe anything they state.
Post by: Kyrt on December 26, 2017, 01:59:29 PM
Hello Kyrt,
I appreciate the response but its hard to share the thought the money has been used properly and only for SC. After pouring through Derek's information and the paper trails that have been uncovered in Chris's questionable film industry investments I have trouble sharing the idea that the backer money has been used wisely. What makes makes suspect even more is they stated while back even if money dried up they had plenty to finish the game. But they are continually are adding things to sell in game and outside of the game. I have been on the development side for years at IBM and other companies and understand costs and delays. It's just disheartening as I fully bought into Chris's pitch from the get go. For myself to see what has transpired over the past two years with SC its hard to trust or believe anything they state.
I'm not suggesting money has been wisely spent.
Far from it. Chris Roberts has...IMO....wasted millions. His decision to change genres to an MMO, for example, should have (IMO) necessitated a complete restart of the project and a total revaluation of the decisions made up until that point.
Changing to an MMO ensured that the engine he had selected was no longer viable and required extensive rewriting...at huge cost in time and effort...AND because he failed to communicate changes, rendered much of the work outsourced to other firms useless whilst eventually opening CIG up to be sued by CryTek.
That one decision likely cost CIG tens of millions of dollars that were effectively wasted.
One could argue that there were reasons...Chris might not have wanted to throw out all the work already done and his agreement with CryTek locked him into CryEngine and having been out of the industry for ten years and having noone with any experience or knowledge of MMO development he possibly underestimated the amount of work required to fulfil his vision and so on and so forth.
The sad fact is that I am aware that much of the money raised by CIG has been effectively squandered. The financial reports are also interesting....I'm not an accountant but it looks to me that CIG paid someone millions of dollars for the IP rights to the SC property. That "someone" has to be Chris Roberts since the Star Citizen universe is *his* creation. Now...assuming my understanding is right, that would mean Chris Roberts set up a company which received millions of dollars to develop a game and then had that company pay him millions to obtain the IP rights for the game CR created the company to develop in the first place.
That sounds to me like something perfectly legal and yet somehow extremely shady and morally dubious but it's also just as likely that I'm misreading the information.
The point being that despite what I wrote...which was simply to point out that CIG could indeed spend have amounts of money and legitimately have little to show... I have no doubt large chunks of the money have been wasted.
CR could have chosen to develop the game relatively cheaply, but he'd have to accept a loss of fidelity. Not so many polygons for the ships and bases and characters....not so many points of interaction such as switches...and so on. But the game would be relatively cheap to develop.
He didn't. He chose the uber expensive option...but he doesn't have the full resources of an established studio to do that, AND it appears its staff is skewed towards artists rather than coders. 6 network engineers of which only three are working on the so-called netcode for example...when they are developing an MMO.
Only 450 odd people means development is going to take much longer than at other firms....and be that much more costly as a result.
But 450 people is too many for the other development model....a smallish team that develops games relatively cheaply.
Post by: Spunky Munkee on December 26, 2017, 02:11:00 PM
That one decision likely cost CIG tens of millions of dollars that were effectively wasted.
One could argue that there were reasons...Chris might not have wanted to throw out all the work already done and his agreement with CryTek locked him into CryEngine and having been out of the industry for ten years and having noone with any experience or knowledge of MMO development he possibly underestimated the amount of work required to fulfil his vision and so on and so forth.
I don't know how to type as my own field separate from the highlighted quotes so here it goes...
This would fit in exactly with what Chris Roberts and Ortwin did at Ascendant Pictures. They reportedly skimmed 20% off the top of the investors money and then replaced it with loans. (coutts?) Then when some of the movies showed a profit and investors were looking for a return Roberts said NO we must pay back the loans. The investors got screwed. Looks like the backers are getting screwed too. Same dog, old tricks. He was going to make his money regardless of success or failure. Insanity. Too bad they will keep tossing money into this dumpster fire.
Post by: dsmart on December 26, 2017, 04:32:44 PM
I don't know, man.
It's still kinda cool if you for example fly from Port Olisar to Delamar, seamlessly quantum traveling and landing at Levski. If you know the way by heart, that is, because planetary waypoints are still disappearing randomly. Or you take your Freelancer, pick up and deliver a package after a brief fight with AI ships.
This really is fun and it looks great if you happen to get on a fresh server, not to mention the great job some dudes in England did with the music and sounds.
I mean, this all has potential. Potential to become something worth spending 30-60$ for. Or more if you absolutely want to, I have no problem with whales. Who am I to forbid them spending money?
It could have all been fine if CIG/RSI would have honestly said: "Listen, folks, thanks a lot for your overwhelming support, we really appreciate it, but please be aware that the scope of this game we're making for you will stay within certain boundaries because it simply has to. We will not try to reinvent the wheel when it comes to game development, however, we'll do our best to deliver something you and your friends will enjoy and are hiring great talents to help us along the way. We don't know when it will be done but we will let you test builds from time to time and evaluate your feedback."
End of story, no impact marketing, no lofty promises, no giant money laundering scheme across the globe, and together with professional community management even Dr. Smart would still have his 250$ invested and probably would write a blog to help solve some engine issues.
Well, we all know how it turned out instead.
And personally, I am disappointed how a cult of brainless manchilds is allowed to mostly represent the backers and wasn't ever stopped from dreaming up a never before seen level of scope/feature creep while a marketing team that makes EA look like girl scouts, selling cookies, aggressively destroys development cycles and pipelines to milk the last fucking cent out of regular people who don't know any better.
Even more, I am sad that no violently pissed-of mob of backers who've had enough did ever show up at Gamescom and let some chairs fly to get management back on track like we Europeans are known to do if something goes sideways. Instead, they're all qeueing up to kiss Chris&Sandies ass like teenage girls at a Justin Bieber concert. DISGUSTING!
This is a great post. So I'm quoting the whole thing.
:five: :five: :five:
Post by: dsmart on December 26, 2017, 04:38:36 PM
Hello Kyrt,
I appreciate the response but its hard to share the thought the money has been used properly and only for SC. After pouring through Derek's information and the paper trails that have been uncovered in Chris's questionable film industry investments I have trouble sharing the idea that the backer money has been used wisely. What makes makes suspect even more is they stated while back even if money dried up they had plenty to finish the game. But they are continually are adding things to sell in game and outside of the game. I have been on the development side for years at IBM and other companies and understand costs and delays. It's just disheartening as I fully bought into Chris's pitch from the get go. For myself to see what has transpired over the past two years with SC its hard to trust or believe anything they state.
The money is long gone. That's why they had to take out the Coutts loan this past Summer; and we don't know what other loans they took here in the US, though sources say they have both loans and investors. Of course recently we discovered (as I wrote last week) that they have now sub-divided the shares of the UK companies. Which means they are out looking for money via investors in order to sell shares.
Of course, all the sales they have been doing, are just monthly funding.
I don't care what anyone says, the project is FUBAR. And they simply don't have the money to continue with for the +6 years it will take for them to implement everything they promised. This is why they have now started pushing SQ42 in the hopes that it would sell to non-backers who don't already have it. Considering what we saw, coupled with the ME:A and COD:IW, it's a safe bet that SQ42 is already DOA.
Post by: dsmart on December 27, 2017, 02:45:05 PM
(https://i.imgur.com/cu0vBk7.png)
(https://i.imgur.com/tISniOg.png) (https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/comments/7mafgs/no_one_is_more_critical_of_this_game_than_chris/drsvfk3/)
Post by: dsmart on December 27, 2017, 02:59:42 PM
Post by: Meowz on December 27, 2017, 08:40:34 PM
Post by: StanTheMan on December 28, 2017, 06:16:50 AM
The first guy who had issues getting his friends into SC is screwed. The doubt is there, he can only lie to himself for so long. Some where deep inside reason has sunk in and the final straw has been broken, its only a matter of time before the brain registers the pain. Could be a month, could be 6 months or a bit more, but if there is funds left to refund he will be asking for one. Wouldn't be surprised if he starts reading DS blogs to start getting a clearer picture on why his doubt is growing.
and he is in for $4k plus .......
Post by: dsmart on December 28, 2017, 06:57:46 AM
The first guy who had issues getting his friends into SC is screwed. The doubt is there, he can only lie to himself for so long. Some where deep inside reason has sunk in and the final straw has been broken, its only a matter of time before the brain registers the pain. Could be a month, could be 6 months or a bit more, but if there is funds left to refund he will be asking for one. Wouldn't be surprised if he starts reading DS blogs to start getting a clearer picture on why his doubt is growing.
That's nothing.
First, there's this. https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/comments/7mg01m/so_far_my_experience_in_30_has_been_horrible/
Quote
I'm not talking about the performance issues, I'm talking about gameplay issues. So far I've accepted 5 missions and tried to do some trading on my own.
Mission 1: Had to go to work, this happens, no biggie.
Mission 2: Collect stuff from planet, take to Port Olisar. Game freezes when leaving planet.
Mission 3: Grab cargo from space, take to Port Olisar. After EVA to collect cargo, controls freeze and I cant do anything, not even escape opens the menu.
My own trading: Load up ship with food, planning to trade with some settlement on a planet. Some asshole with a Constellation is smashing into ships on the launchpad at Olisar, recover ship, cargo lost.
Mission 4: Move cargo from Olisar to Settlement, need to talk to NPC at Olisar to get cargo, can't talk to NPC.
Mission 5: Grab cargo from planet, take to GrimHEX. Game crashes when I finish flying the 500KM from the warp point to GrimHEX.
Funnily I am still having fun, I think I just like how you have to do every step. Load ship, land ship, unload ship, deliver. It adds to it all.
But those issues are really getting to me.
Followed by this https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/comments/7mg01m/so_far_my_experience_in_30_has_been_horrible/drtpbu7/?st=jbqjzfa5&sh=d1ffa6d0
Quote
Before people shit on this guy,
you got to think that you all tolerate and upvote every thread people make about what an awesome time they're having - but are quick to smear anyone who has had a less than stellar experience.
If you read those threads, it's clear that they're fighting an uphill battle to convince anyone but themselves, that everything is OK with 3.0.
Post by: jwh1701 on December 28, 2017, 10:55:26 AM
Reading over that thread I do see a lot more than the past stating the obvious and not loosing it over the graphics. Would be nice to see the bulk of die hard SC supporters stop the self deception and really start putting pressure on Roberts.
Post by: StanTheMan on December 28, 2017, 06:10:48 PM
Quote
SC is super popular among american military people, mindless loyalty is kind of one of the qualities you gotta have for that job
There are a few other "things" that come with those careers too...a willingness to help certain people :rip:
Post by: Spunky Munkee on December 28, 2017, 07:57:17 PM
Service members come from every walk of life and join for a multitude of reasons. Mindless loyalty may be the very last reason to join. Perhaps the servicemember thinks there is something wrong with the service and wants to put a better face on the mission, or do rescue or humanitarian work. Some join the Coast Guard to get involved with environmental compliance (as my kid wanted to, but probably won't, meaning to say the USCG is probably not the branch).
Mindless, that's a very disrespectful term to describe people who set aside years of their lives to serve their country. My kid's doing it for additional college money, for art school. Hardly a mindless killer.
Post by: jwh1701 on December 28, 2017, 09:56:12 PM
Post by: dsmart on January 02, 2018, 05:07:47 PM
ps: Read this (http://www.dereksmart.com/forum/index.php?topic=29.msg1573#msg1573) to get an understanding of how it works
Post by: jwh1701 on January 02, 2018, 06:07:07 PM
seamless transit from space to planet
Great read, its seems in the link provide that even if they switch to LY that they may not be able to delivered what was promised. Do you think that at any point crytek devs have given Chris false info from the earliest demo on what they could do? I have always wondered at one point and I believe it had to happen that Chris was aware he could not deliver on the stretch goals? I personally believe he would of know much earlier looking looking at the 3.0 release issues.
Post by: David-2 on January 02, 2018, 08:44:26 PM
ps: Read this (http://www.dereksmart.com/forum/index.php?topic=29.msg1573#msg1573) to get an understanding of how it works
Say, Derek, I followed that link and looked around and higher on that page I saw that "portrait" of their new female character model from back in May. But I don't remember anybody posting here or on reddit about how she looks in the actual 3.0 game. How did she turn out, huh? (heh)
Post by: dsmart on January 03, 2018, 04:14:29 AM
seamless transit from space to planet
Great read, its seems in the link provide that even if they switch to LY that they may not be able to delivered what was promised. Do you think that at any point crytek devs have given Chris false info from the earliest demo on what they could do? I have always wondered at one point and I believe it had to happen that Chris was aware he could not deliver on the stretch goals? I personally believe he would of know much earlier looking looking at the 3.0 release issues.
I have no reason to believe that. In all my years of experience in licensing engines and dealing with licensors, just like ANY software you buy, there is NEVER a guarantee of performance. So obviously Crytek wouldn't have made any such assurances; especially since they were not the ones developing the game. They only built the trailer which Chris then used and passed off as his own in order to start raising funding. What you are implying would mean the same thing, that Amazon would give similar assurances about using LY. You should read the TOS for both CryEngine and LY.
This has been discussed to death, and I'm going to keep going on about it: It doesn't matter which engine they use, LY or not, they can NEVER build the game Chris pitched and promised. It's already evident from the numerous things they already cut, even though going into year 7 and over $175M, they are not even in Beta or 18% completed.
Post by: jwh1701 on January 03, 2018, 07:42:41 AM
I have no reason to believe that. In all my years of experience in licensing engines and dealing with licensors, just like ANY software you buy, there is NEVER a guarantee of performance. So obviously Crytek wouldn't have made any such assurances; especially since they were not the ones developing the game. They only built the trailer which Chris then used and passed off as his own in order to start raising funding. What you are implying would mean the same thing, that Amazon would give similar assurances about using LY. You should read the TOS for both CryEngine and LY.
This has been discussed to death, and I'm going to keep going on about it: It doesn't matter which engine they use, LY or not, they can NEVER build the game Chris pitched and promised. It's already evident from the numerous things they already cut, even though going into year 7 and over $175M, they are not even in Beta or 18% completed.
Post by: Kyrt on January 03, 2018, 12:40:38 PM
Great read, its seems in the link provide that even if they switch to LY that they may not be able to delivered what was promised. Do you think that at any point crytek devs have given Chris false info from the earliest demo on what they could do? I have always wondered at one point and I believe it had to happen that Chris was aware he could not deliver on the stretch goals? I personally believe he would of know much earlier looking looking at the 3.0 release issues.
Did CryTek give CIG false info?
IMO.....no.
Chris Roberts had a vision. A spiritual commander to Wing Commander with multiplayer and a few open world elements.
CryEngine would not have been perfect for such a game, but few non custom engines are. That's why licenses often include the right to tweak the engine. CryEngine...for that game...would have worked. Its basically CODIW.
But Chris Roberts got ambitious. The game went from limited multiplayer to a full fledged MMO. It went from a few locations you could visit at will to a full fledged open world set up. It went from a few basic game mechanics designed to add a little depth to the universe to a full fledged life simulator.
And with that upgrade in scope came a requirement for better AIs. A 64 bit engine. Better physics modelling. Server and network coding that could handle instances and meshing. And more.
Chris Roberts went from a game that CryEngine could easily handle to one which required a near total engine rewrite.
Unfortunately....it looks that by the time he'd made that decision, contracts had been signed and third parties already engaged.
But Chris Roberts change in scope doesn't reflect on CryTek at al. He chose an engine that was suitable for the game he was creating. It isn't CryTeks fault he later changed the scope.
Chris Roberts should have dropped CryEngine at this stage. He should have created a new engine. He should have continued development of Star Citizen using CryTek and then built his MMO as a side project. He should have tried to terminate the contracts he had.
Instead....I honestly don't know why he did what he did. If CryTeks charges are true, CIG dug themselves a deep hole...
And the simplest explanation is either that they honestly believed they had more rights or freedoms than they did, or they decided CryTek was going down and they could do what they wanted because CryTek could never object.
So they stopped promoting CryEngine and they merged LumberYard with CryEngine. They used code in Bugsmashers and they didn't buy a second license.
This might be excused as an oversight or misunderstanding...bit if CryTek really has been talking to them for two years then that becomes unlikely. Wilful and Intentional as they believed CryTek was going down becomes believable.
Add in the mess over the lawyers, and the way they hired exCIG devs to change CryEngine and then promoted it as StarEngine, the way they talked down CryEngine instead of promoting it and that the main benefit of switching from CE to LY was the possibility of sidestepping royalties and fees and CryTek can make a fair case that CIG knew exactly what it was doing
Its quite a mess.
I can't wait to hear CIGs defence.
Post by: jwh1701 on January 03, 2018, 02:37:44 PM
Did CryTek give CIG false info?
IMO.....no.
Chris Roberts had a vision. A spiritual commander to Wing Commander with multiplayer and a few open world elements.
Good post Kyrt, I'm curious about what you think of the viability of the original goals.
Even thought he greatly kept making promises as the money flowed I still wonder. I go back every so often to look at the stretch goals especially the 6 million one. Looking at what has been accomplished do you think he could even achieved the 6 mill stretch goal with the engine?
Post by: Kyrt on January 03, 2018, 03:07:23 PM
Good post Kyrt, I'm curious about what you think of the viability of the original goals.
Even thought he greatly kept making promises as the money flowed I still wonder. I go back every so often to look at the stretch goals especially the 6 million one. Looking at what has been accomplished do you think he could even achieved the 6 mill stretch goal with the engine?
The $6million goal provided a full orchestral score...doable....the Bengal Carrier...doable...a mission disk for S42...doable and 100 systems, which I presume is what you are interested in.
I see no major reason why the game couldn't have 100 systems at launch.
A procedural generation system could create the basic structure for these systems fairly quickly. All you would need then is to determine the level of handcrafting each system would receive.
Some would no doubt get a lot. I would presume most would get little or none.
To be honest...given how relatively simple procgen is, it is surprising that CIG hasn't generated a few dozen systems simply to show off. If it even just populated Stanton with empty worlds, that would have taken some of the sting away from 3.0.
The only reasonable explanation is that CIGs procgen system doesn't work as well as might be expected. It seems that if they could go for the easy win of a fully populated system they would have
Post by: jwh1701 on January 03, 2018, 03:35:24 PM
The $6million goal provided a full orchestral score...doable....the Bengal Carrier...doable...a mission disk for S42...doable and 100 systems, which I presume is what you are interested in.
I see no major reason why the game couldn't have 100 systems at launch.
Thank you for the response, I'm not sure if it was from here but I got linked to a procgen demo using unreal to create a cave system. The person easily created a vast cave system only using 4 basic images and I could not tell without serious looking that 4 images were use. So it seems the procgen at that level was pretty simple.
Post by: dsmart on January 05, 2018, 07:36:03 AM
All previous bugs gone. The oldest (500+) is now 2 weeks old.
Say hello to the MVP suckas!
https://robertsspaceindustries.com/community/issue-council/star-citizen-alpha-3
Post by: David-2 on January 05, 2018, 08:39:22 AM
Ho Lee Cow! They retconned the issue council!
All previous bugs gone. The oldest (500+) is now 2 weeks old.
Oh really, Derek. If you were a real software developer you'd know that that's what we in the software development business call "triage". Here is Mozilla's page (https://wiki.mozilla.org/Bug_Triage/Process/Triage) describing it, which of course if you were a real software developer you'd already know.
Obviously what's going on here is a standard process described in point 2 under "Why Triage": "Your bug queue is not overwhelming: New members of your team do not see the bug queue and get the wiggins." (I'm not sure what "wiggins" is - must be some kind of technical term I'm unaware of.)
As you should know, getting rid of 3000+ bugs that you don't know how to fix and that you're never going to fix will not only keep your newest members of your team from "wigginsing", obviously an important goal in itself, but has other benefits as well. For example, deleting bugs via triage also helps your bug tracking software run faster. (God knows JIRA isn't fast even at the best of times.) And makes backing up your bug database easier. Oh yes, it's a common thing.
Yes, we've all done it. The devs and PMs take a pass through the bug list and realistically assess how important the bug is to fix vs other priorities such as shipping the product.
Triage. That's what it is. Normal software development process. For game development especially, I'm reliably told.
Post by: jwh1701 on January 05, 2018, 08:48:59 AM
Post by: Flashwit on January 05, 2018, 09:37:09 AM
Post by: dsmart on January 05, 2018, 02:09:19 PM
Oh really, Derek. If you were a real software developer you'd know that that's what we in the software development business call "triage". Here is Mozilla's page (https://wiki.mozilla.org/Bug_Triage/Process/Triage) describing it, which of course if you were a real software developer you'd already know.
LOL!! Yeah, wiping the bug dB clean, isn't what a triage means. :lol:
Post by: dsmart on January 05, 2018, 02:10:32 PM
My question that I wonder about concerning the council is do they record and keep the bugs after they expired. In dev at IBM they were named from p1 to p4, we routinely shipped the golden master build with p4s and p3. We always kept a list of all previous issues and if time allowed would work and correct p3/4. Its just weird for me to see an expiration on a bug list.
That's standard. But in this case, that's not what they did. They just wiped the db clean. Like the bugs never existed. Ever. :shrug:
Post by: Motto on January 05, 2018, 02:49:57 PM
Post by: David-2 on January 05, 2018, 04:35:21 PM
LOL!! Yeah, wiping the bug dB clean, isn't what a triage means. :lol:
After a few posts have been similarly misunderstood I'm beginning to think my dry sense of humor isn't agreeable here. Tant pis.