Smart Community

Games => Star Citizen => Topic started by: darkpen on September 30, 2017, 12:22:44 AM

Title: Man, am I confused
Post by: darkpen on September 30, 2017, 12:22:44 AM
I backed this waaaaay back at the beginning of the original Kickstarter thinking I was buying into a new Wing Commander game with maybe some online components (I was picturing Starlancer or something I guess).

Real life got ahold of me and I was out of the loop for a long time and didn't pay attention to anything (I filter a lot of stuff out of my inbox so I didn't even keep up with the KS updates, especially since they were incredibly marketing like during the campaign, which I understood at the time but figured I'd already contributed).

Now I have some free time again and figured "oh hey self, that new Wing Commander game must at least be in beta by now, would be fun to check out."

...

WTF is this shit show?! I never signed up for a MMO or some Crytek in space?! (No offense to those that did but I don't remember that from the original KS, unless it was some possible stretch goal)

Now it's I don't even remember how long later, I downloaded... something? I can't tell if it's a game or some shareware shit demo you used to find on crappy "1,000 games" CDs. Some kind of FPS with a hangar and... what? I don't get it.

So I instead of playing Wing Commander 201X, I spent some time reading up on this clusterfuck and yeah, ok, I got some entertainment out of it, so if I got took (which seems highly likely), I can live with it.

But just for my sanity, can someone tell me:

1) Was there ever a WC like game pitched or did I just wishful think that?

2) Is a single player WC like game still in the alleged works? I don't have time to fully catch up and I can't figure out WTF is going on with 2.6/3.0 builds of something that doesn't even have a ship to fly (or more than a few rooms to walk around in), some Space Marine crap, Star Citizen and Squadron 42 (I thought Squadron 42 was the unit you would be playing in in Star Citizen?), some face crap videos that I don't know why I'd want in any game I'm playing, etc.

2b/3) I guess I need some kind of short summary of WTF happened? I'm gathering that there was so much pledged that these morons decided to run with the money and pitch some impossible thing instead of making the game they promised first and then doing whatever the hell they want.

4) From what little I've actually managed to catch up on, when are we expecting to see this on American Greed?

Sorry for the partial rant, but I needed to vent some.

Title: Re: Man, am I confused
Post by: Spunky Munkee on September 30, 2017, 01:41:17 AM
Yes there was a WC game originally pitched. What happened Chris ROberts and his swelled head. He kept getting contributions and kept increasing the scope, promising more and more. Just yesterday the Lead on Squadron 42, the game you want announced that he was quitting. All indications are that they had massive cost overruns, the netcode was crap causing massive issues, they missed delivery dates by years now ands in a last ditch effort to get the baby jesus (hail Mary full of grace, don't let all my backers quit and ask for refunds, the living has been good and I want my gravy train to keep going for years).

So there is a whole us vs them war between the cultist backers and those who have left the project. They really are warped.

I doubt that the Squadron 42 is a priority for Chris Roberts since they are bleeding backers after missing the 3.0 delivery this summer(over a year late, at least), cutting a huge amount of promised content and having a total shit show at the gamescom. Look up the  twitch feed from "haters" somewhere linked on this site. You will piss your pants it was so bad. Embarrassing really.



I would love to see Roberts go to prison for his waste and abuse of backers money but I am not entirely sure it fits the legal definition of fraud. He certainly knew he could not deliver early on but kept the smiles and sunshine routine to keep backers sending him money. It will be up to  some aggressive AG to decide.

Read up on this site.

If you are doubting the project then go to the SC reddit refunds subreddit and learn how to get a refund. Chris Roberts wants you to think that you cannot get one.

Dont believe the full press media that says Star Citizen is great and just around the corner. Its all paid for bullshit.

http://dereksmart.com/forums/reply/5685/

Watch this to see the state of the game, the fidelity that Chris Roberts has brought us for 160 Million dollars...
Title: Re: Man, am I confused
Post by: Backer42 on September 30, 2017, 04:41:09 AM
I backed this waaaaay back at the beginning of the original Kickstarter thinking I was buying into a new Wing Commander game with maybe some online components (I was picturing Starlancer or something I guess).

Real life got ahold of me and I was out of the loop for a long time and didn't pay attention to anything (I filter a lot of stuff out of my inbox so I didn't even keep up with the KS updates, especially since they were incredibly marketing like during the campaign, which I understood at the time but figured I'd already contributed).

Now I have some free time again and figured "oh hey self, that new Wing Commander game must at least be in beta by now, would be fun to check out."

...

WTF is this shit show?! I never signed up for a MMO or some Crytek in space?! (No offense to those that did but I don't remember that from the original KS, unless it was some possible stretch goal)

Now it's I don't even remember how long later, I downloaded... something? I can't tell if it's a game or some shareware shit demo you used to find on crappy "1,000 games" CDs. Some kind of FPS with a hangar and... what? I don't get it.
In short and simple words: That Kickstarter you backed failed delivery (due date was 2014). Don't bother with whatever the cult tries to sell you.

Visit https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen_refunds/ and get your money back. As Kickstarter backer you are in a very good position.
Title: Re: Man, am I confused
Post by: Spunky Munkee on September 30, 2017, 05:44:26 AM
The most common line is "the game has greatly changed and expanded so the schedule cannot be expected to be held to". Yeah in short get a refund. I did 5 months ago. You can too. Do it now though because they supposedly (I have heard this dozens of times over the years) they will release the 3.0 patch. It is suspected that two things will happen with this patch.
1. Backers will see it for what it is, a crappy patch, the game won't  make it, they will rush to get refunds.
2. Chris Roberts will claim that this patch fulfills the requirement of delivering a "minimally viable product" and curtail refunds on the basis that he has met the minimal requirement of a game delivery under his modified TOS.

You see Chris Roberts has unilaterally changed the Terms Of Service twice now removing his requirement to show backers the finances if he fails to deliver on time (he gave himself delivery plus 12 months, then he changed it to give himself another 18 months before being required to show the books, then he simply removed the requirement to show anything)  and he claims that he does not have to give any refunds but out of the goodness of his heart he will grant them on a case by case basis.

There has been a lot of water under the bridge but if you don't want to spend a weekend reading everything just look at the link I gave you for the pertinent points.

I strongly suggest you request a refund if you are not happy with what you see.

Roberts promised a whole lot but is now  backpedaling fast and much of the game will be a minimally viable product meaning that it will be a game only meant to demonstrate the backbone of the gameplay requiring further investments and long term development.
So for 159 million dollars we get a bloated demo project.
If anything will be delivered from Squadron 42 it might be a mission or two to prove there is a game and backers would have to pay to develop the rest.

Read up and request a refund while you are at it.

If you don't mind answering, how much are you in for? A basic package or more? I was in for $515 and got a refund.
Title: Re: Man, am I confused
Post by: dsmart on September 30, 2017, 07:05:24 AM
I backed this waaaaay back at the beginning of the original Kickstarter thinking I was buying into a new Wing Commander game with maybe some online components (I was picturing Starlancer or something I guess).

Real life got ahold of me and I was out of the loop for a long time and didn't pay attention to anything (I filter a lot of stuff out of my inbox so I didn't even keep up with the KS updates, especially since they were incredibly marketing like during the campaign, which I understood at the time but figured I'd already contributed).

Now I have some free time again and figured "oh hey self, that new Wing Commander game must at least be in beta by now, would be fun to check out."

...

WTF is this shit show?! I never signed up for a MMO or some Crytek in space?! (No offense to those that did but I don't remember that from the original KS, unless it was some possible stretch goal)

Now it's I don't even remember how long later, I downloaded... something? I can't tell if it's a game or some shareware shit demo you used to find on crappy "1,000 games" CDs. Some kind of FPS with a hangar and... what? I don't get it.

So I instead of playing Wing Commander 201X, I spent some time reading up on this clusterfuck and yeah, ok, I got some entertainment out of it, so if I got took (which seems highly likely), I can live with it.

But just for my sanity, can someone tell me:

1) Was there ever a WC like game pitched or did I just wishful think that?

2) Is a single player WC like game still in the alleged works? I don't have time to fully catch up and I can't figure out WTF is going on with 2.6/3.0 builds of something that doesn't even have a ship to fly (or more than a few rooms to walk around in), some Space Marine crap, Star Citizen and Squadron 42 (I thought Squadron 42 was the unit you would be playing in in Star Citizen?), some face crap videos that I don't know why I'd want in any game I'm playing, etc.

2b/3) I guess I need some kind of short summary of WTF happened? I'm gathering that there was so much pledged that these morons decided to run with the money and pitch some impossible thing instead of making the game they promised first and then doing whatever the hell they want.

4) From what little I've actually managed to catch up on, when are we expecting to see this on American Greed?

Sorry for the partial rant, but I needed to vent some.

Yeah, welcome to the farce. Enjoy your stay.  :smuggo:
Title: Re: Man, am I confused
Post by: dsmart on September 30, 2017, 07:14:55 AM
Just yesterday the Lead on Squadron 42, the game you want announced that he was quitting.

As you talking about Joe (http://www.dereksmart.com/forum/index.php?topic=15.msg4584#msg4584)? He was a level designer, not a lead.

Title: Re: Man, am I confused
Post by: Spunky Munkee on September 30, 2017, 12:56:49 PM
My bad. Still may indicate that progress has ended.
Title: Re: Man, am I confused
Post by: darkpen on September 30, 2017, 10:55:31 PM
Yes there was a WC game originally pitched. What happened Chris ROberts and his swelled head. He kept getting contributions and kept increasing the scope, promising more and more. Just yesterday the Lead on Squadron 42, the game you want announced that he was quitting. All indications are that they had massive cost overruns, the netcode was crap causing massive issues, they missed delivery dates by years now ands in a last ditch effort to get the baby jesus (hail Mary full of grace, don't let all my backers quit and ask for refunds, the living has been good and I want my gravy train to keep going for years).

Well, at least I didn't imagine something that was never there. That's a slight relief. :)

So there is a whole us vs them war between the cultist backers and those who have left the project. They really are warped.

Yeah, I noticed that. I initially tried to catch up on things through Reddit, but it was over the top.

I doubt that the Squadron 42 is a priority for Chris Roberts since they are bleeding backers after missing the 3.0 delivery this summer(over a year late, at least), cutting a huge amount of promised content and having a total shit show at the gamescom. Look up the  twitch feed from "haters" somewhere linked on this site. You will piss your pants it was so bad. Embarrassing really.

Was that the one with "actors" playing the game? The little I watched was extremely cringe-inducing (reminded me of old Microsoft demos of "real-life usage" situations).

I would love to see Roberts go to prison for his waste and abuse of backers money but I am not entirely sure it fits the legal definition of fraud. He certainly knew he could not deliver early on but kept the smiles and sunshine routine to keep backers sending him money. It will be up to  some aggressive AG to decide.

I fell out of the loop because I joined a law firm, how appropriate. :P

I guess it all depends on what he did with the money. The fact that he started a studio and has something to show for it could be the start of a decent "reasonable commercial effort" defense. And you could counter that with expert testimony with how someone would actually start a successful studio with all the money he got. But then he could just claim he's actually incompetent to run a studio (which could actually be his best defense from what I've seen so far).

What kind of tickles me, however, is that you mentioned that there may be a mass request of refunds coming up. I think the last email from them that I got was something about selling something else like a ship or something. If someone could show that they're amassing funds because they expect that as well and are using the new money to pay out, that could be a good seed for a Ponzi investigation (you'd need forensic accounting to go through the books).

Dont believe the full press media that says Star Citizen is great and just around the corner. Its all paid for bullshit.

With backer money? :)
Title: Re: Man, am I confused
Post by: darkpen on September 30, 2017, 11:05:55 PM
You see Chris Roberts has unilaterally changed the Terms Of Service twice now removing his requirement to show backers the finances if he fails to deliver on time (he gave himself delivery plus 12 months, then he changed it to give himself another 18 months before being required to show the books, then he simply removed the requirement to show anything)  and he claims that he does not have to give any refunds but out of the goodness of his heart he will grant them on a case by case basis.

Has anyone filed a class action anywhere? There are a lot of jurisdictions where you can't change the TOS on the fly like that, especially in this case where the product you initially signed up for has not been delivered yet (would be different if they had delivered and then changed the TOS).

My current jurisdiction is too small to have any effect or have enough people join, but someone over on the US side could make an impact I'm sure.

There has been a lot of water under the bridge but if you don't want to spend a weekend reading everything just look at the link I gave you for the pertinent points.

I strongly suggest you request a refund if you are not happy with what you see.

Yeah, thanks for that, definitely will look into it. Truth it, I'm not even remotely interested in the MMO, I really just backed a new WC game.

If you don't mind answering, how much are you in for? A basic package or more? I was in for $515 and got a refund.

I'm in for $37. This is the package on Kickstarter:

DIGITAL SCOUT: A digital copy of the finished game for your PC with your RSI Aurora spaceship ready to fly + 1,000 Galatic Credits + Exclusive access to the Alpha + Beta (digital tier, no physical rewards)

I don't remember if the description of it changed after the fact, but it makes sense (most of the stuff I backed back then I stuck with digital delivery).
Title: Re: Man, am I confused
Post by: darkpen on September 30, 2017, 11:10:49 PM
Yeah, welcome to the farce. Enjoy your stay.  :smuggo:

Ha, thanks. It's actually becoming interesting in a watching a car wreck kind of way.
Title: Re: Man, am I confused
Post by: Serviceman on October 01, 2017, 01:30:12 AM
Yeah, welcome to the farce. Enjoy your stay.  :smuggo:

Ha, thanks. It's actually becoming interesting in a watching a car wreck kind of way.

Partially the reason why I have not asked for a refund, plus I have only spent like $50 or $60 on this some years ago so I really do not care about the money anymore.  Been so long since I have looked at my account, I can't remember if I spent $50 or $60  :aaa:
Title: Re: Man, am I confused
Post by: Spunky Munkee on October 01, 2017, 03:03:42 AM
For $37 it's almost worth it just to be able to post passive aggressive messages on Spectrum and trigger the cultists.

Chris Roberts, totally incompetent as a project manager. I can't say that they are amassing funds any longer since their expenses probably outweigh their income by a considerable margin and they have more than likely spent the majority of the money they have raised. The constant ship sales indicate to me that they need the income badly. Over 5 years in and they are nowhere close to completing Squadron 42 or the Persistant universe.

(Smokey and the bandit music, chorus) We got a long way to go and a low bank ac-count, I gotta sque-eze the bac-kers till they cry.

Their shooter Star Marine is terrible. I have played many better free to play games. Actually a game from 8 years ago called Shattered Horizon did space combat much better but sadly it was not the success it deserved to be and is gone from the marketplace (but not my steam inventory as it lives on in AI heaven).

Title: Re: Man, am I confused
Post by: darkpen on October 01, 2017, 03:39:28 AM
For $37 it's almost worth it just to be able to post passive aggressive messages on Spectrum and trigger the cultists.

Chris Roberts, totally incompetent as a project manager. I can't say that they are amassing funds any longer since their expenses probably outweigh their income by a considerable margin and they have more than likely spent the majority of the money they have raised. The constant ship sales indicate to me that they need the income badly. Over 5 years in and they are nowhere close to completing Squadron 42 or the Persistant universe.

(Smokey and the bandit music, chorus) We got a long way to go and a low bank ac-count, I gotta sque-eze the bac-kers till they cry.

Their shooter Star Marine is terrible. I have played many better free to play games. Actually a game from 8 years ago called Shattered Horizon did space combat much better but sadly it was not the success it deserved to be and is gone from the marketplace (but not my steam inventory as it lives on in AI heaven).

...they have a forum? That's mighty tempting now. :)
Title: Re: Man, am I confused
Post by: Aya Reiko on October 01, 2017, 03:42:37 AM
For $37 it's almost worth it just to be able to post passive aggressive messages on Spectrum and trigger the cultists.

Chris Roberts, totally incompetent as a project manager. I can't say that they are amassing funds any longer since their expenses probably outweigh their income by a considerable margin and they have more than likely spent the majority of the money they have raised. The constant ship sales indicate to me that they need the income badly. Over 5 years in and they are nowhere close to completing Squadron 42 or the Persistant universe.

(Smokey and the bandit music, chorus) We got a long way to go and a low bank ac-count, I gotta sque-eze the bac-kers till they cry.

Their shooter Star Marine is terrible. I have played many better free to play games. Actually a game from 8 years ago called Shattered Horizon did space combat much better but sadly it was not the success it deserved to be and is gone from the marketplace (but not my steam inventory as it lives on in AI heaven).

...they have a forum? That's mighty tempting now. :)
You will never find a more wretched hive of scum and villainy. You must be cautious.
Title: Re: Man, am I confused
Post by: Motto on October 01, 2017, 03:56:47 AM
And any negative comment will get you instantly banned. It's not worth the effort there. The best statement you can make it ask for a refund. Even if it's just for 40 bucks. Give it to charity when you get it back, just don't let Chris get away with his millions in salary. Or his croonies for that matter.
Title: Re: Man, am I confused
Post by: dsmart on October 01, 2017, 06:55:34 AM
Has anyone filed a class action anywhere? There are a lot of jurisdictions where you can't change the TOS on the fly like that, especially in this case where the product you initially signed up for has not been delivered yet (would be different if they had delivered and then changed the TOS).

You can't because the ToS has a specific arbitration clause. So any such legal action would need to go through arbitration, with no way to get into an open lawsuit (thus class action) without getting around that. Usually only things like malfeasance and fraud are enough to bypass arbitration. Of course legal action by State or Fed authorities are different.
Title: Re: Man, am I confused
Post by: dsmart on October 01, 2017, 06:58:11 AM
...they have a forum? That's mighty tempting now. :)

Oh gawd, yes, they do. A few months back, they transitioned from the standard forum, to their Discord wannabe clone called Spectrum (yeah, the irony isn't lost there at all). Only the hardcore cultists actually use it, due to the abject toxicity and the fact that any dissenting opinions are immediately shouted down, you'll get summarily banned etc.

Title: Re: Man, am I confused
Post by: darkpen on October 02, 2017, 02:30:24 AM
Has anyone filed a class action anywhere? There are a lot of jurisdictions where you can't change the TOS on the fly like that, especially in this case where the product you initially signed up for has not been delivered yet (would be different if they had delivered and then changed the TOS).

You can't because the ToS has a specific arbitration clause. So any such legal action would need to go through arbitration, with no way to get into an open lawsuit (thus class action) without getting around that. Usually only things like malfeasance and fraud are enough to bypass arbitration. Of course legal action by State or Fed authorities are different.

Do you have a link/copy of the *original* TOS? I'm wondering if that arbitration clause is even valid.
Title: Re: Man, am I confused
Post by: Serviceman on October 02, 2017, 03:21:40 AM
You see Chris Roberts has unilaterally changed the Terms Of Service twice now removing his requirement to show backers the finances if he fails to deliver on time (he gave himself delivery plus 12 months, then he changed it to give himself another 18 months before being required to show the books, then he simply removed the requirement to show anything)  and he claims that he does not have to give any refunds but out of the goodness of his heart he will grant them on a case by case basis.

Has anyone filed a class action anywhere? There are a lot of jurisdictions where you can't change the TOS on the fly like that, especially in this case where the product you initially signed up for has not been delivered yet (would be different if they had delivered and then changed the TOS).

My current jurisdiction is too small to have any effect or have enough people join, but someone over on the US side could make an impact I'm sure.

There has been a lot of water under the bridge but if you don't want to spend a weekend reading everything just look at the link I gave you for the pertinent points.

I strongly suggest you request a refund if you are not happy with what you see.

Yeah, thanks for that, definitely will look into it. Truth it, I'm not even remotely interested in the MMO, I really just backed a new WC game.

If you don't mind answering, how much are you in for? A basic package or more? I was in for $515 and got a refund.

I'm in for $37. This is the package on Kickstarter:

DIGITAL SCOUT: A digital copy of the finished game for your PC with your RSI Aurora spaceship ready to fly + 1,000 Galatic Credits + Exclusive access to the Alpha + Beta (digital tier, no physical rewards)

I don't remember if the description of it changed after the fact, but it makes sense (most of the stuff I backed back then I stuck with digital delivery).

I live in the USA, and living in different States, I have never seen any law that says they couldn't change the TOS on the fly.
Also there isn't any reason for there to be a class action lawsuit when CIG have been giving refunds.  If they were refusing refunds en masse, then I could see a class action lawsuit being taken.

I don' think there will ever be any class action lawsuit, because people will know there would be no money to get from it anyways, since it will be gone.  My guess the worse that is going to happen is they will run out of money, have to sell the company, and then some other company is going to finish up the 2 games minus all the feature creep that happened beyond the stretch goals, release them and find ways to monetize the games further from the customers who have bought the game.  The company that bought CIG would be able to buy it on cents on the dollar and be able to complete the games for much less money using what is already done.

I doubt Chris Roberts is going to be in charge of the company when these games release, but I don't doubt the games will release at some point.  I just don't see any company not willing to pay cents on the dollar for CIG for what is obviously a cash cow given the number of backers and how much they were willing to spend already.
Title: Re: Man, am I confused
Post by: Motto on October 02, 2017, 03:26:45 AM
Nope. This game will never be finished. It cannot be made and nobody will come to the rescue of Chris this time. There is nothing of worth to get with the buying of CIG, but the financial risks are enormous. Nobody is going to burn their hands on it. And the true fanatics will go after Chris. After he has been their saviour and messias for so long, he'll be hunted beyond his grave for his betrayals. Make no mistake, they'll want him dead for this failure.
Title: Re: Man, am I confused
Post by: Serviceman on October 02, 2017, 03:31:56 AM
Nope. This game will never be finished. It cannot be made and nobody will come to the rescue of Chris this time. There is nothing of worth to get with the buying of CIG, but the financial risks are enormous. Nobody is going to burn their hands on it. And the true fanatics will go after Chris. After he has been their saviour and messias for so long, he'll be hunted beyond his grave for his betrayals. Make no mistake, they'll want him dead for this failure.

I will disagree with this.  I am fully expecting basically another Digital Anvil situation.  And I do believe the game can be made (minus all the feature creep beyond the stretch goals) under the right leadership. I also don't think what is obviously a cash cow can be ignored.
Title: Re: Man, am I confused
Post by: Motto on October 02, 2017, 04:09:41 AM
The only way to get Star Citizen made, is by starting all over. There is almost nothing from SC that can be re-used. The total costs for the game as pitched are estimated around 200 to 300 million dollar and the whole fanbase of SC is about 750K. No publisher will try to take on that project with those numbers. And by taking over CIG, there is always a risk that the new owner will be held accountable for everything that has happened under the previous owner. No company is going to take that risk. Even though we suspect know the 160 million is a lie, just by looking at offices and staff size over a couple of years, it can be deducted that a lot of millions have been spent. No, Star Citizen will only survive as the biggest failure in crowdfunding history. Nothing more.
Title: Re: Man, am I confused
Post by: Backer42 on October 02, 2017, 04:19:13 AM
Star Citizen will only survive as the biggest failure in crowdfunding history.
And it's already in the Guinness book of records.
Title: Re: Man, am I confused
Post by: dsmart on October 02, 2017, 08:33:25 AM
I will disagree with this.  I am fully expecting basically another Digital Anvil situation. 

Under what circumstance do you see ANY company taking on a $160+ million (that we know of, and assuming it's true - and not including the loans and other financial liabilities the public doesn't know about) liability tied to a highly toxic community involved in a project that's an industry joke? Are you serious?

I have been around for over 30 years and seen all kinds of industry deals come and go; so believe me when I tell you this: it's never - ever - going to happen. For one thing, any such deal would mean Chris admitting that he has failed. Then he has to deal with the professional and personal legal liabilities tied to that failure, and any such deal.

No, I don't see that happening. They will continue to limp along, people will continue to leave as they have been doing, until the whole thing is no more.

Quote
And I do believe the game can be made (minus all the feature creep beyond the stretch goals) under the right leadership.

Then it won't be the "game" promised, will it? :colbert:

Plus, they simply DO NOT have the tech required to build the game they promised. And even if they did have the tech, they DO NOT have the experience team capable of pulling it off. They've had 6 years + $160 million + 500 (at some point or another) so far, and they aren't even 15% of the way there.

Did you happen to catch my live stream of UCCE (http://twitch.tv/thedereksmart/) from this past week? If not, you should watch it. It's rather long (6+ hours), and didn't even cover 50% of the game's features and tech; which is why I said that (http://steamcommunity.com/app/345580/discussions/0/1519260397784635759/) I am going to be covering other parts this weekend. So, if you did watch it, at which point did it occur to you that pretty much everything CIG promised with Star Citizen, aside from the fps inside station & ship (which Line Of Defense already has), is already implemented in a custom game engine that's almost 20 years old?

That's why I said they can't do it. It goes beyond having the tech. That's why all kinds of games from leading devs and publishers, fail. Look at the recent Lawbreakers fps action game as an example. Or the likes of COD:IW, MA:E. A lot goes into a game other than just the engine.

Quote
I also don't think what is obviously a cash cow can be ignored.

OK, so how do you turn a $160+ million liability into a "cash cow"? You don't own a business do you? If you did, you would know that the math will never work.
Title: Re: Man, am I confused
Post by: dsmart on October 02, 2017, 08:34:20 AM
Has anyone filed a class action anywhere? There are a lot of jurisdictions where you can't change the TOS on the fly like that, especially in this case where the product you initially signed up for has not been delivered yet (would be different if they had delivered and then changed the TOS).

You can't because the ToS has a specific arbitration clause. So any such legal action would need to go through arbitration, with no way to get into an open lawsuit (thus class action) without getting around that. Usually only things like malfeasance and fraud are enough to bypass arbitration. Of course legal action by State or Fed authorities are different.

Do you have a link/copy of the *original* TOS? I'm wondering if that arbitration clause is even valid.

I have an entire section (http://dereksmart.com/forums/topic/star-citizen-tos/) devoted to all the various TOS versions.
Title: Re: Man, am I confused
Post by: Serviceman on October 02, 2017, 01:24:16 PM
I will disagree with this.  I am fully expecting basically another Digital Anvil situation. 

Under what circumstance do you see ANY company taking on a $160+ million (that we know of, and assuming it's true - and not including the loans and other financial liabilities the public doesn't know about) liability tied to a highly toxic community involved in a project that's an industry joke? Are you serious?

I have been around for over 30 years and seen all kinds of industry deals come and go; so believe me when I tell you this: it's never - ever - going to happen. For one thing, any such deal would mean Chris admitting that he has failed. Then he has to deal with the professional and personal legal liabilities tied to that failure, and any such deal.

No, I don't see that happening. They will continue to limp along, people will continue to leave as they have been doing, until the whole thing is no more.

Quote
And I do believe the game can be made (minus all the feature creep beyond the stretch goals) under the right leadership.

Then it won't be the "game" promised, will it? :colbert:

Plus, they simply DO NOT have the tech required to build the game they promised. And even if they did have the tech, they DO NOT have the experience team capable of pulling it off. They've had 6 years + $160 million + 500 (at some point or another) so far, and they aren't even 15% of the way there.

Did you happen to catch my live stream of UCCE (http://twitch.tv/thedereksmart/) from this past week? If not, you should watch it. It's rather long (6+ hours), and didn't even cover 50% of the game's features and tech; which is why I said that (http://steamcommunity.com/app/345580/discussions/0/1519260397784635759/) I am going to be covering other parts this weekend. So, if you did watch it, at which point did it occur to you that pretty much everything CIG promised with Star Citizen, aside from the fps inside station & ship (which Line Of Defense already has), is already implemented in a custom game engine that's almost 20 years old?

That's why I said they can't do it. It goes beyond having the tech. That's why all kinds of games from leading devs and publishers, fail. Look at the recent Lawbreakers fps action game as an example. Or the likes of COD:IW, MA:E. A lot goes into a game other than just the engine.

Quote
I also don't think what is obviously a cash cow can be ignored.

OK, so how do you turn a $160+ million liability into a "cash cow"? You don't own a business do you? If you did, you would know that the math will never work.

Sorry, late night posting, I missed some details in my post.

What I am saying is the dissolution of the company, where the assets would be sold off, like auctioned by court order, where a company would buy that stuff and not have any of the liabilities of CIG at all.  Then the company would finish off the games to a reasonable state, finds ways to keep on monetizing the people who bought the games.  Now in my opinion what ever company that buys the assets to finish the games in a reasonable state, they would want to avoid further PR drama and would most likely still give the games to the backers though they would not be obligated to since the company did not buy the liabilities but only the assets.
Title: Re: Man, am I confused
Post by: Motto on October 02, 2017, 01:54:29 PM
The thing is, there are no assets. Everything revolves on a butchered version of CryEngine from years ago. And the concept of SC basically is "I'll take all kind of space games and put them together in one big ass mother of all space games". Now, that's the other reason this game will never work. You can't throw all kinds of a game into one and expect it to work.
Title: Re: Man, am I confused
Post by: Aya Reiko on October 02, 2017, 01:57:39 PM
I will disagree with this.  I am fully expecting basically another Digital Anvil situation. 

Under what circumstance do you see ANY company taking on a $160+ million (that we know of, and assuming it's true - and not including the loans and other financial liabilities the public doesn't know about) liability tied to a highly toxic community involved in a project that's an industry joke? Are you serious?

I have been around for over 30 years and seen all kinds of industry deals come and go; so believe me when I tell you this: it's never - ever - going to happen. For one thing, any such deal would mean Chris admitting that he has failed. Then he has to deal with the professional and personal legal liabilities tied to that failure, and any such deal.

No, I don't see that happening. They will continue to limp along, people will continue to leave as they have been doing, until the whole thing is no more.

Quote
And I do believe the game can be made (minus all the feature creep beyond the stretch goals) under the right leadership.

Then it won't be the "game" promised, will it? :colbert:

Plus, they simply DO NOT have the tech required to build the game they promised. And even if they did have the tech, they DO NOT have the experience team capable of pulling it off. They've had 6 years + $160 million + 500 (at some point or another) so far, and they aren't even 15% of the way there.

Did you happen to catch my live stream of UCCE (http://twitch.tv/thedereksmart/) from this past week? If not, you should watch it. It's rather long (6+ hours), and didn't even cover 50% of the game's features and tech; which is why I said that (http://steamcommunity.com/app/345580/discussions/0/1519260397784635759/) I am going to be covering other parts this weekend. So, if you did watch it, at which point did it occur to you that pretty much everything CIG promised with Star Citizen, aside from the fps inside station & ship (which Line Of Defense already has), is already implemented in a custom game engine that's almost 20 years old?

That's why I said they can't do it. It goes beyond having the tech. That's why all kinds of games from leading devs and publishers, fail. Look at the recent Lawbreakers fps action game as an example. Or the likes of COD:IW, MA:E. A lot goes into a game other than just the engine.

Quote
I also don't think what is obviously a cash cow can be ignored.

OK, so how do you turn a $160+ million liability into a "cash cow"? You don't own a business do you? If you did, you would know that the math will never work.

Sorry, late night posting, I missed some details in my post.

What I am saying is the dissolution of the company, where the assets would be sold off, like auctioned by court order, where a company would buy that stuff and not have any of the liabilities of CIG at all.  Then the company would finish off the games to a reasonable state, finds ways to keep on monetizing the people who bought the games.  Now in my opinion what ever company that buys the assets to finish the games in a reasonable state, they would want to avoid further PR drama and would most likely still give the games to the backers though they would not be obligated to since the company did not buy the liabilities but only the assets.
That's if they find a buyer at auction.  It's not unheard of for assets to go unsold.
I just don't see any value to any of CiG's assets.  If anything, some unknown Chinese company may pick it up for pennies.  What they would do with it would be anyone's guess.
Title: Re: Man, am I confused
Post by: dsmart on October 02, 2017, 02:38:23 PM

Sorry, late night posting, I missed some details in my post.

What I am saying is the dissolution of the company, where the assets would be sold off, like auctioned by court order, where a company would buy that stuff and not have any of the liabilities of CIG at all.  Then the company would finish off the games to a reasonable state, finds ways to keep on monetizing the people who bought the games.  Now in my opinion what ever company that buys the assets to finish the games in a reasonable state, they would want to avoid further PR drama and would most likely still give the games to the backers though they would not be obligated to since the company did not buy the liabilities but only the assets.

That doesn't change anything. How does buying a toxic IP, then re-releasing it, a good thing? And how do you think the target audience - who would have been $160M in the hole - are going to react? Let's not even BEGIN to talk about the media. The bad PR alone will kill it right off the bat. In fact, as soon as this collapses - as I am 100% certain that it will - the bad PR will flood the channels making it worthless.

Aside from the fact that the both Star Citizen and Squadron 42 IP are WORTHLESS because 1) there is no value, due to being negative equity due to debt, because of all the pre-orders (ala crowd-funding) and 2) there was never a released product from which to judge its value

As skittish as the industry is, anyone who thinks a publisher or investor is going to go buy the IP so they can make a game, is an ignorant fool.
Title: Re: Man, am I confused
Post by: darkpen on October 04, 2017, 07:34:40 AM
I live in the USA, and living in different States, I have never seen any law that says they couldn't change the TOS on the fly.
Also there isn't any reason for there to be a class action lawsuit when CIG have been giving refunds.  If they were refusing refunds en masse, then I could see a class action lawsuit being taken.

Those aren't usually codified statutes, they're usually set by precedent.

I know companies reserve the right to modify their TOS (I've written a few myself), but applicability is a different game.

It's true about the refunds, though. That may be a barrier. But on a personal level, I don't like that they promised full transparency to get money, and then modified the terms to not having to disclose anything.

I don' think there will ever be any class action lawsuit, because people will know there would be no money to get from it anyways, since it will be gone.  My guess the worse that is going to happen is they will run out of money, have to sell the company, and then some other company is going to finish up the 2 games minus all the feature creep that happened beyond the stretch goals, release them and find ways to monetize the games further from the customers who have bought the game.  The company that bought CIG would be able to buy it on cents on the dollar and be able to complete the games for much less money using what is already done.

You're right. Having a legal background, I don't see a class action as a way to cash in, but as a way for people to get together and obtain a resolution. My idea for the class action had nothing to do with getting money, but really to force the company to open up its books as promised and show what they've been doing. What happens from there is too speculative.
Title: Re: Man, am I confused
Post by: darkpen on October 04, 2017, 07:39:25 AM
The only way to get Star Citizen made, is by starting all over. There is almost nothing from SC that can be re-used. The total costs for the game as pitched are estimated around 200 to 300 million dollar and the whole fanbase of SC is about 750K. No publisher will try to take on that project with those numbers. And by taking over CIG, there is always a risk that the new owner will be held accountable for everything that has happened under the previous owner. No company is going to take that risk. Even though we suspect know the 160 million is a lie, just by looking at offices and staff size over a couple of years, it can be deducted that a lot of millions have been spent. No, Star Citizen will only survive as the biggest failure in crowdfunding history. Nothing more.

Not to mention that, in essence, the entire fanbase has already purchased the game, so there's nothing left to sell.

Let's say the game is actually finished in some form or other (let's be somewhat realistic, meaning it can't ever be released as pitched now)--who would sign up for this game that hasn't already paid? And of those, how many were funding a pay-once game, not a monthly subscription?

Buying CIG would just be buying a huge liability.
Title: Re: Man, am I confused
Post by: darkpen on October 04, 2017, 07:40:54 AM
Has anyone filed a class action anywhere? There are a lot of jurisdictions where you can't change the TOS on the fly like that, especially in this case where the product you initially signed up for has not been delivered yet (would be different if they had delivered and then changed the TOS).

You can't because the ToS has a specific arbitration clause. So any such legal action would need to go through arbitration, with no way to get into an open lawsuit (thus class action) without getting around that. Usually only things like malfeasance and fraud are enough to bypass arbitration. Of course legal action by State or Fed authorities are different.

Do you have a link/copy of the *original* TOS? I'm wondering if that arbitration clause is even valid.

I have an entire section (http://dereksmart.com/forums/topic/star-citizen-tos/) devoted to all the various TOS versions.

Sweet, got my bedtime reading for a while. :)
Title: Re: Man, am I confused
Post by: darkpen on October 04, 2017, 07:54:01 AM
I will disagree with this.  I am fully expecting basically another Digital Anvil situation. 

Under what circumstance do you see ANY company taking on a $160+ million (that we know of, and assuming it's true - and not including the loans and other financial liabilities the public doesn't know about) liability tied to a highly toxic community involved in a project that's an industry joke? Are you serious?

I have been around for over 30 years and seen all kinds of industry deals come and go; so believe me when I tell you this: it's never - ever - going to happen. For one thing, any such deal would mean Chris admitting that he has failed. Then he has to deal with the professional and personal legal liabilities tied to that failure, and any such deal.

No, I don't see that happening. They will continue to limp along, people will continue to leave as they have been doing, until the whole thing is no more.

Quote
And I do believe the game can be made (minus all the feature creep beyond the stretch goals) under the right leadership.

Then it won't be the "game" promised, will it? :colbert:

Plus, they simply DO NOT have the tech required to build the game they promised. And even if they did have the tech, they DO NOT have the experience team capable of pulling it off. They've had 6 years + $160 million + 500 (at some point or another) so far, and they aren't even 15% of the way there.

Did you happen to catch my live stream of UCCE (http://twitch.tv/thedereksmart/) from this past week? If not, you should watch it. It's rather long (6+ hours), and didn't even cover 50% of the game's features and tech; which is why I said that (http://steamcommunity.com/app/345580/discussions/0/1519260397784635759/) I am going to be covering other parts this weekend. So, if you did watch it, at which point did it occur to you that pretty much everything CIG promised with Star Citizen, aside from the fps inside station & ship (which Line Of Defense already has), is already implemented in a custom game engine that's almost 20 years old?

That's why I said they can't do it. It goes beyond having the tech. That's why all kinds of games from leading devs and publishers, fail. Look at the recent Lawbreakers fps action game as an example. Or the likes of COD:IW, MA:E. A lot goes into a game other than just the engine.

Quote
I also don't think what is obviously a cash cow can be ignored.

OK, so how do you turn a $160+ million liability into a "cash cow"? You don't own a business do you? If you did, you would know that the math will never work.

Sorry, late night posting, I missed some details in my post.

What I am saying is the dissolution of the company, where the assets would be sold off, like auctioned by court order, where a company would buy that stuff and not have any of the liabilities of CIG at all.  Then the company would finish off the games to a reasonable state, finds ways to keep on monetizing the people who bought the games.  Now in my opinion what ever company that buys the assets to finish the games in a reasonable state, they would want to avoid further PR drama and would most likely still give the games to the backers though they would not be obligated to since the company did not buy the liabilities but only the assets.

My knowledge of making games at this level is limited, so bear with me on this.

What are their assets right now? I'm going to assume:

- Trademarks and names
- Art assets (models, textures)
- Game levels
- Game engine
- Code

The trademarks and names are only worth something if the buyer has a desire to continue the project as is.

The art assets are worth something if the buyer is either continuing the project or is making something that could use them, which would cut down on the work. Same goes for game levels.

Game engine: they've modified an existing engine, I think? I don't even know if that's marketable, it would depend on the original engine's TOS.

Code: only worth something if they've gotten a software patent, or if they've figured out something special. Which only applies to the US.

The truth is, unless you're making Star Citizen, I think their assets are worthless. Except for the workstations, furniture, software licenses, etc., which would be auctioned off separately.
Title: Re: Man, am I confused
Post by: Motto on October 04, 2017, 08:50:34 AM
There is no engine or code to sell as they don't have a license to sell CryEngine or Lumberyard. And why would anyone buy that heavily modded engine in the first place as Cryengine and Lumberyard have newer versions themselves you can license directly. It would make no sense. There is only one conclusion and that is this game will never be made.
Title: Re: Man, am I confused
Post by: Spunky Munkee on October 04, 2017, 08:50:09 PM
The only asset they have is a willing mob of cultists who continue to send them cash for" continued development". Now that very asset is their liability as well so they have been carefully attempting to not scare them away by refusing refunds and alerting them to their dire financial situation.

I wonder, have they repaid any of those two loans yet? No? They must be close to hand to mouth mode.

I don't see them having anything marketable here. They have a huge liability in that the game is supposed to be made and a dwindling source of income that is leaking out the back end in refunds. This won't be the last game in development that fails for one reason or another. This failure is due entirely to Chris Roberts being in charge. If it was due to the poor engine choice, his pissing off his key staff and not having the people who wrote the modified engine on hand any longer, his insistence that every single choice be his alone, his foolish overpromising and overhyping the game, his pushing to show his ass in public (a NY saying) where his staff knew the game was not ready for prime time and he was actually surprised that it sucked as bad as it did.  Does this man live in a bubble of his own creation? Does he believe that because he declares it to be so that it will be done?

In any case I decided to quickly look at Spektrum and found this gem where a student asks if 2.5 million a month is enough to keep the doors open, Amazing answers. https://robertsspaceindustries.com/spectrum/community/SC/forum/3/thread/average-2-59-million-in-pledges-a-month-is-it-enou

Some think there will be 10 million new buyers, other think there is some secret tech they can sell, or SWTOR mad 150 million soio this can too, or Chris has a contingency plan, the next guy, yeah I wonder what it could be...

All kinds of gems in there but there is a link in there that suposedly shows the UK financials https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/company/08703814/filing-history

Then again I'm sure it does not account for the international shell game they play with the money.
Title: Re: Man, am I confused
Post by: dsmart on October 05, 2017, 12:54:20 PM
You're right. Having a legal background, I don't see a class action as a way to cash in, but as a way for people to get together and obtain a resolution. My idea for the class action had nothing to do with getting money, but really to force the company to open up its books as promised and show what they've been doing. What happens from there is too speculative.

Yeah, I've written about that several times, pointing out that backers who keep giving them money, really don't fully understand that a ToS is legally binding, and that they would never be able to get past the bind arbitration in the ToS, to engage in a class action. Each backer will have to take action against CIG independently. The only way that anything major (in terms of legal action) comes from this, is if State and/or Fed authorities get involved, seeing as it is a crowd-funded project, and there is already precedent for their involvement in those.
Title: Re: Man, am I confused
Post by: darkpen on October 05, 2017, 11:01:47 PM
Yeah, I've written about that several times, pointing out that backers who keep giving them money, really don't fully understand that a ToS is legally binding, and that they would never be able to get past the bind arbitration in the ToS, to engage in a class action. Each backer will have to take action against CIG independently. The only way that anything major (in terms of legal action) comes from this, is if State and/or Fed authorities get involved, seeing as it is a crowd-funded project, and there is already precedent for their involvement in those.

Let's set up a crowdfund to challenge the arbitration clause itself, then. :)
Title: Re: Man, am I confused
Post by: Motto on October 06, 2017, 03:08:12 AM
Good idea, but I really don't trust Derek to handle the money. Let's ask Chris if he wants to do that.
Title: Re: Man, am I confused
Post by: dsmart on October 06, 2017, 07:12:25 AM
Good idea, but I really don't trust Derek to handle the money. Let's ask Chris if he wants to do that.

:lol: