Author Topic: 3.0 Progress Watch  (Read 125965 times)

Backer42

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Re: 3.0 Released To PTU
« Reply #240 on: December 25, 2017, 08:51:23 PM »
BTW: I think it's time for Chris to retire the word "polish" as applied to the development process.  It just isn't meaningful the way he uses it.

He is a con artist posing in front of CryEngine code pretending to be a developer, while in truth he needs help to operating his Personal Computer. In December 2015 during the famous holiday livestream this became blatantly clear.

So while you and I might have a pretty good idea how paging and virtual memory works, this guy surely doesn't have a single clue about technology. CryTek provided him all the materials he used to pretend being a video game developer. He is just mingling words to make him sound experienced. Any proper HR agent would see through that at the first interview and never hire this guy.

Some of the blame has go to at the dishonestly of CryTek helping essentially a n00b to raise money at the peak of the crowdfunding hype. If CryTek had openly stated their kind of involvement when the "industry veteran" was already spreading lies at interviews during 2012, many early backers would have never funded this. But CryTek were just as greedy about cashing in on the hype as was CIG. In the end it wasn't Chris alone creating the delusion resulting in over 6 million dollars of funds. It was the Germans, who put him into AAA video game development, where he never belonged.

N0mad

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Re: 3.0 Released To PTU
« Reply #241 on: December 25, 2017, 11:06:11 PM »
I thought that clip of him coding was a spoof before I realised it was an official SC video. I don't for one minute believe he coded the physics engine as he claims, but since that's one of the most broken parts of the game then perhaps he did. Maybe nobody is allowed to change the Chris Roberts legacy code without his permission, and it's all so broken nobody wants to tell the guy. Could explain some of the problems.

I can't wait for all the stories about what's really going on inside CIG to come out.


AncoGaming

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Re: 3.0 Released To PTU
« Reply #242 on: December 25, 2017, 11:54:08 PM »
It's a mess, really. I still can't believe it.

When it came to PTU, some Evocati were saying that it's not ready yet. I then saw for myself that it was nowhere near a PTU build as we knew it. But hey, Anniversary Sale, so fuck it and roll it out to people who've mostly paid their way into testing, many of them butthurt because they weren't in 1st wave as advertized and promised. (the according thread on Spectrum is long deleted by moderators)

I've already written that it would be disastrous to make this failure of cut-down and unplayable features available to everyone too soon a while ago in here and on Spectrum. I've even gotten upvotes over there for my opinion and haven't been attacked from white knights because well... we pretty much all understood that 3.0 needs more time.

What came next was a big mistake: Let everyone have it, because Christmas Sale.

Of course, you can still say it's PTU, so naturally it isn't fun to play with. I know about all that. But it still came too soon as an Alpha for an Alpha of broken gameplay, worst space combat physics ever, messed up keyboard mappings, missing but long promised features and overall instability, not to mention the terrible performance.

The actual build right now is something which should go out to Evocati in the near future after internal QA as a better iteration. I'd be OK with that. But no, they wipe 2.6.2 from the servers and let the world see that they've achieved almost nothing, working on 3.0 after being a year late just to make some cash during Christmas Sale.

This is wrong on so many levels.  :cripes:

Bubba

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Re: 3.0 Released To PTU
« Reply #243 on: December 26, 2017, 01:11:19 AM »
Well, that's the spirit in which Chris's letter is written: why the hell release this thing? His answer is clear and shocking in its candor:

1. We have to release something.
2. It worked internally, since our testing didn't involve generating lots of objects or playing on real world machines.
3. We will be lucky if we fix some of these problems by March.

ED got some headlines this holiday season when an overambitious commander miscalculated and ran out of fuel way out in the black. The headlines and the twitch streams focused on the rescue operation to bring her the fuel needed to make it back to known space.
SC is going to run out of funding at some point, and by some stunt - selling stock in the game, planets, dreadnoughts - will try to get people to rescue them.  But these "Fuel whales" will only be helping Roberts drive the project deeper into oblivion.

DemonInvestor

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Re: 3.0 Released To PTU
« Reply #244 on: December 26, 2017, 02:50:09 AM »
The best part with what he writes is that he basically PR like kills what they've more or less always called as their golden bullet for performance problems. Months and months it was always that their culling would change the performance problems. But he basically tells everyone, that it's not player numbers exactly, that's causing the problems, but that there are overall problems with what the engine has to handle.
And i'm really puzzled how a long time developer never thought before about what happens when a Cargo transport goes boom and physically calculated loot gets spilled into the world. I guess they're not even thinking about what happens when their culling container explode and players should get spilled into space - or they simply open up an ramp...

Motto

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Re: 3.0 Released To PTU
« Reply #245 on: December 26, 2017, 04:21:15 AM »
In a nutshell (from Reddit):

PTU: The reason why SC is bad is because its on PTU its the TESTING universe get it?!
Live release: OK the reason why SC is bad is because its PRE ALPHA, maybe ALPHA games aren't for you , try taking a mental break from the game? otherwise its probably your computer specs and if its not that, the reason why its bad currently is because they released it EARLY because the backers didnt have enough faith and were IMPATIENT so CIG couldnt focus on polishing it

dsmart

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Re: 3.0 Released To PTU
« Reply #246 on: December 26, 2017, 04:43:05 AM »
It's a mess, really. I still can't believe it.

When it came to PTU, some Evocati were saying that it's not ready yet. I then saw for myself that it was nowhere near a PTU build as we knew it. But hey, Anniversary Sale, so fuck it and roll it out to people who've mostly paid their way into testing, many of them butthurt because they weren't in 1st wave as advertized and promised. (the according thread on Spectrum is long deleted by moderators)

I've already written that it would be disastrous to make this failure of cut-down and unplayable features available to everyone too soon a while ago in here and on Spectrum. I've even gotten upvotes over there for my opinion and haven't been attacked from white knights because well... we pretty much all understood that 3.0 needs more time.

What came next was a big mistake: Let everyone have it, because Christmas Sale.

Of course, you can still say it's PTU, so naturally it isn't fun to play with. I know about all that. But it still came too soon as an Alpha for an Alpha of broken gameplay, worst space combat physics ever, messed up keyboard mappings, missing but long promised features and overall instability, not to mention the terrible performance.

The actual build right now is something which should go out to Evocati in the near future after internal QA as a better iteration. I'd be OK with that. But no, they wipe 2.6.2 from the servers and let the world see that they've achieved almost nothing, working on 3.0 after being a year late just to make some cash during Christmas Sale.

This is wrong on so many levels.  :cripes:

Yup, pretty much. Remember back in the Summer when I wrote that sources said it needed at least 6 months of polish for it to be out of QA and even to Evocati? Then they released it to build hype for the Q4 sales.

He doesn't care anymore. He already got the money, and pretty much everyone knows the project is FUBAR. What's left now is to see how long it takes before the next level of the disaster falls into place.
Star Citizen isn't a game. It's a TV show about a bunch of characters making a game. It's basically "This is Spinal Tap" - except people think the band is real.

Kyrt

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Re: 3.0 Released To PTU
« Reply #247 on: December 26, 2017, 06:38:54 AM »
In a nutshell (from Reddit):

PTU: The reason why SC is bad is because its on PTU its the TESTING universe get it?!
Live release: OK the reason why SC is bad is because its PRE ALPHA, maybe ALPHA games aren't for you , try taking a mental break from the game? otherwise its probably your computer specs and if its not that, the reason why its bad currently is because they released it EARLY because the backers didnt have enough faith and were IMPATIENT so CIG couldnt focus on polishing it

To an extent....this is true.

I'd be more concerned with the incompetence, mismanagement and poor game design decisions that have created numerous technical difficulties that will be expensive and time consuming to correct as well as delayed the games development, but also have created gameplay that promises to be far from fun in many aspects.

I don't think...as one example...that the corridor walking simulator we saw before Xmas offers much in the way of rivetting gameplay. Technical issues can be solved given enough time and money but poor design lingers forever

AncoGaming

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Re: 3.0 Released To PTU
« Reply #248 on: December 26, 2017, 06:52:05 AM »
I don't know, man.

It's still kinda cool if you for example fly from Port Olisar to Delamar, seamlessly quantum traveling and landing at Levski. If you know the way by heart, that is, because planetary waypoints are still disappearing randomly. Or you take your Freelancer, pick up and deliver a package after a brief fight with AI ships.

This really is fun and it looks great if you happen to get on a fresh server, not to mention the great job some dudes in England did with the music and sounds.

I mean, this all has potential. Potential to become something worth spending 30-60$ for. Or more if you absolutely want to, I have no problem with whales. Who am I to forbid them spending money?

It could have all been fine if CIG/RSI would have honestly said: "Listen, folks, thanks a lot for your overwhelming support, we really appreciate it, but please be aware that the scope of this game we're making for you will stay within certain boundaries because it simply has to. We will not try to reinvent the wheel when it comes to game development, however, we'll do our best to deliver something you and your friends will enjoy and are hiring great talents to help us along the way. We don't know when it will be done but we will let you test builds from time to time and evaluate your feedback."

End of story, no impact marketing, no lofty promises, no giant money laundering scheme across the globe, and together with professional community management even Dr. Smart would still have his 250$ invested and probably would write a blog to help solve some engine issues.

Well, we all know how it turned out instead.

And personally, I am disappointed how a cult of brainless manchilds is allowed to mostly represent the backers and wasn't ever stopped from dreaming up a never before seen level of scope/feature creep while a marketing team that makes EA look like girl scouts, selling cookies, aggressively destroys development cycles and pipelines to milk the last fucking cent out of regular people who don't know any better.

Even more, I am sad that no violently pissed-of mob of backers who've had enough did ever show up at Gamescom and let some chairs fly to get management back on track like we Europeans are known to do if something goes sideways. Instead, they're all qeueing up to kiss Chris&Sandies ass like teenage girls at a Justin Bieber concert. DISGUSTING!

jwh1701

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Re: 3.0 Released To PTU
« Reply #249 on: December 26, 2017, 08:32:54 AM »
My frustration and sadness with SC as continued to grow greatly since 2016. I love scifi and have been playing elite dangerous/horizon since release. When SC was first announced I was ecstatic just looking over what would be available in game that was promised at 6 mill. I used to not like Derek Smart's posts concerning SC but after seeing the horrific progress and now the 3.0 release its apparent that something is greatly amiss. As much as I wanted to play SC I do not like to be deceived and decided to research more and look over all the information provided by Derek. At this point I and have come to agree with him on all aspects concerning development of SC. Looking over the UK fillings and seeing all the land, tank sales I truly believe the money is long gone and was not put into the development of the game. Looking over the reddit and SC forums is truly mind boggling over the 3.0 release. I do not understand how they can continue to think this is progress taking into account the time and money spent. Considering Frontier did elite dangerous for around 8mill and a few staff from what I could find and comparing 3.0 with 150 mill plus spent is a total disaster.
« Last Edit: December 26, 2017, 08:49:02 AM by jwh1701 »

Kyrt

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Re: 3.0 Released To PTU
« Reply #250 on: December 26, 2017, 10:27:48 AM »
My frustration and sadness with SC as continued to grow greatly since 2016. I love scifi and have been playing elite dangerous/horizon since release. When SC was first announced I was ecstatic just looking over what would be available in game that was promised at 6 mill. I used to not like Derek Smart's posts concerning SC but after seeing the horrific progress and now the 3.0 release its apparent that something is greatly amiss. As much as I wanted to play SC I do not like to be deceived and decided to research more and look over all the information provided by Derek. At this point I and have come to agree with him on all aspects concerning development of SC. Looking over the UK fillings and seeing all the land, tank sales I truly believe the money is long gone and was not put into the development of the game. Looking over the reddit and SC forums is truly mind boggling over the 3.0 release. I do not understand how they can continue to think this is progress taking into account the time and money spent. Considering Frontier did elite dangerous for around 8mill and a few staff from what I could find and comparing 3.0 with 150 mill plus spent is a total disaster.

Game development...especially so-called AAA game development....can be tremendously expensive.

And often, you can look at a game and wonder..."Where did the money go?"

You can get games like ED and NMS and DU and more which produce great games for $10 -$30 million.

But then you have games like GTA V and SC which can reach two or three times that figure, or more, but not offer appreciably more.

Where does the money go?

To borrow a word...oftentimes, it is fidelity. Better graphics...better animations...better music and sound....more trigger points on the game...more interactions....more entities.

All of this costs money. Is it worthwhile? Arguably yes...arguably no.

CIG has raised $174 million and counting. It has a staff of around 458.

That's an awkward figure...too many staff to develop the game cheaply and efficiently, but too few to develop the game with the fidelity and detail Chris Roberts is aiming for while having enough money to tempt him into doing that and too much money to allow them to plead poverty.

jwh1701

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Re: 3.0 Released To PTU
« Reply #251 on: December 26, 2017, 01:30:52 PM »
Hello Kyrt,

I appreciate the response but its hard to share the thought the money has been used properly and only for SC. After pouring through Derek's information and the paper trails that have been uncovered in Chris's questionable film industry investments I have trouble sharing the idea that the backer money has been used wisely. What makes makes suspect even more is they stated while back even if money dried up they had plenty to finish the game. But they are continually are adding things to sell in game and outside of the game. I have been on the development side for years at IBM and other companies and understand costs and delays. It's just disheartening as I fully bought into Chris's pitch from the get go. For myself to see what has transpired over the past two years with SC its hard to trust or believe anything they state.

Kyrt

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Re: 3.0 Released To PTU
« Reply #252 on: December 26, 2017, 01:59:29 PM »
Hello Kyrt,

I appreciate the response but its hard to share the thought the money has been used properly and only for SC. After pouring through Derek's information and the paper trails that have been uncovered in Chris's questionable film industry investments I have trouble sharing the idea that the backer money has been used wisely. What makes makes suspect even more is they stated while back even if money dried up they had plenty to finish the game. But they are continually are adding things to sell in game and outside of the game. I have been on the development side for years at IBM and other companies and understand costs and delays. It's just disheartening as I fully bought into Chris's pitch from the get go. For myself to see what has transpired over the past two years with SC its hard to trust or believe anything they state.

I'm not suggesting money has been wisely spent.

Far from it. Chris Roberts has...IMO....wasted millions. His decision to change genres to an MMO, for example, should have (IMO) necessitated a complete restart of the project and a total revaluation of the decisions made up until that point.

Changing to an MMO ensured that the engine he had selected was no longer viable and required extensive rewriting...at huge cost in time and effort...AND because he failed to communicate changes, rendered much of the work outsourced to other firms useless whilst eventually opening CIG up to be sued by CryTek.

That one decision likely cost CIG tens of millions of dollars that were effectively wasted.

One could argue that there were reasons...Chris might not have wanted to throw out all the work already done and his agreement with CryTek locked him into CryEngine and having been out of the industry for ten years and having noone with any experience or knowledge of MMO development he possibly underestimated the amount of work required to fulfil his vision and so on and so forth.

The sad fact is that I am aware that much of the money raised by CIG has been effectively squandered. The financial reports are also interesting....I'm not an accountant but it looks to me that CIG paid someone millions of dollars for the IP rights to the SC property. That "someone" has to be Chris Roberts since the Star Citizen universe is *his* creation. Now...assuming my understanding is right, that would mean Chris Roberts set up a company which received millions of dollars to develop a game and then had that company pay him millions to obtain the IP rights for the game CR created the company to develop in the first place.

That sounds to me like something perfectly legal and yet somehow extremely shady and morally dubious but it's also just as likely that I'm misreading the information.

The point being that despite what I wrote...which was simply to point out that CIG could indeed spend have amounts of money and legitimately have little to show... I have no doubt large chunks of the money have been wasted.

CR could have chosen to develop the game relatively cheaply, but he'd have to accept a loss of fidelity. Not so many polygons for the ships and bases and characters....not so many points of interaction such as switches...and so on. But the game would be relatively cheap to develop.

He didn't. He chose the uber expensive option...but he doesn't have the full resources of an established studio to do that, AND it appears its staff is skewed towards artists rather than coders. 6 network engineers of which only three are working on the so-called netcode for example...when they are developing an MMO.

Only 450 odd people means development is going to take much longer than at other firms....and be that much more costly as a result.
But 450 people is too many for the other development model....a smallish team that develops games relatively cheaply.



« Last Edit: December 26, 2017, 02:25:04 PM by Kyrt »

Spunky Munkee

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Re: 3.0 Released To PTU
« Reply #253 on: December 26, 2017, 02:11:00 PM »
That one decision likely cost CIG tens of millions of dollars that were effectively wasted.

One could argue that there were reasons...Chris might not have wanted to throw out all the work already done and his agreement with CryTek locked him into CryEngine and having been out of the industry for ten years and having noone with any experience or knowledge of MMO development he possibly underestimated the amount of work required to fulfil his vision and so on and so forth.

I don't know how to type as my own field separate from the highlighted quotes so here it goes...

This would fit in exactly with what Chris Roberts and Ortwin did at Ascendant Pictures. They reportedly skimmed 20% off the top of the investors money and then replaced it with loans. (coutts?) Then when some of the movies showed a profit and investors were looking for a return Roberts said NO we must pay back the loans. The investors got screwed. Looks like the backers are getting screwed too. Same dog, old tricks. He was going to make his money regardless of success or failure. Insanity. Too bad they will keep tossing money into this dumpster fire.
« Last Edit: December 26, 2017, 02:13:10 PM by Spunky Munkee »

dsmart

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Re: 3.0 Released To PTU
« Reply #254 on: December 26, 2017, 04:32:44 PM »
I don't know, man.

It's still kinda cool if you for example fly from Port Olisar to Delamar, seamlessly quantum traveling and landing at Levski. If you know the way by heart, that is, because planetary waypoints are still disappearing randomly. Or you take your Freelancer, pick up and deliver a package after a brief fight with AI ships.

This really is fun and it looks great if you happen to get on a fresh server, not to mention the great job some dudes in England did with the music and sounds.

I mean, this all has potential. Potential to become something worth spending 30-60$ for. Or more if you absolutely want to, I have no problem with whales. Who am I to forbid them spending money?

It could have all been fine if CIG/RSI would have honestly said: "Listen, folks, thanks a lot for your overwhelming support, we really appreciate it, but please be aware that the scope of this game we're making for you will stay within certain boundaries because it simply has to. We will not try to reinvent the wheel when it comes to game development, however, we'll do our best to deliver something you and your friends will enjoy and are hiring great talents to help us along the way. We don't know when it will be done but we will let you test builds from time to time and evaluate your feedback."

End of story, no impact marketing, no lofty promises, no giant money laundering scheme across the globe, and together with professional community management even Dr. Smart would still have his 250$ invested and probably would write a blog to help solve some engine issues.

Well, we all know how it turned out instead.

And personally, I am disappointed how a cult of brainless manchilds is allowed to mostly represent the backers and wasn't ever stopped from dreaming up a never before seen level of scope/feature creep while a marketing team that makes EA look like girl scouts, selling cookies, aggressively destroys development cycles and pipelines to milk the last fucking cent out of regular people who don't know any better.

Even more, I am sad that no violently pissed-of mob of backers who've had enough did ever show up at Gamescom and let some chairs fly to get management back on track like we Europeans are known to do if something goes sideways. Instead, they're all qeueing up to kiss Chris&Sandies ass like teenage girls at a Justin Bieber concert. DISGUSTING!

This is  a great post. So I'm quoting the whole thing.
 :five: :five: :five:
Star Citizen isn't a game. It's a TV show about a bunch of characters making a game. It's basically "This is Spinal Tap" - except people think the band is real.

 

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