Author Topic: Backers v CIG/RSI  (Read 14938 times)

dsmart

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Backers v CIG/RSI
« on: July 15, 2018, 06:15:49 AM »
Since more and more backers are taking steps to sue (they will all fail) CIG/RSI over their refunds, I think we need a new forum dedicated to those discussions.

Most of the refund fiasco plays out over on https://old.reddit.com/r/starcitizen_refunds sub-Reddit.

Back in 2016, the first backer, Streetroller, who took his complaint to the CA authorities, got his $3K refund based on a fluke because he managed to get the attention of the CA authorities, who got in touch with CIG.

It also made the news cycle.

I wrote a blog (The Refund Debacle) about that.

This past April, he later tried to sue croberts in NJ. He failed and the case got thrown out.
Star Citizen isn't a game. It's a TV show about a bunch of characters making a game. It's basically "This is Spinal Tap" - except people think the band is real.

dsmart

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Re: Backers v CIG/RSI
« Reply #1 on: July 15, 2018, 06:21:28 AM »
This past June, another backer (a sick backer with MS) who was refused a refund, tried to sue CIG in CA.

CASE # 18SMSC01860
 
https://www.lacourt.org/casesummary/ui/

Though he was warned that he simply couldn't get past the arbitration clause, he tried anyway. As was to be expected, he lost - and the judge kicked him to arbitration.

I wrote about his case in my latest Twitter thread

Star Citizen isn't a game. It's a TV show about a bunch of characters making a game. It's basically "This is Spinal Tap" - except people think the band is real.

dsmart

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Re: Backers v CIG/RSI
« Reply #2 on: July 15, 2018, 06:24:49 AM »
OSC, who continues to irk both sides of the equation, weighs in on the latest loss

https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen_refunds/comments/8ynrel/i_lost_in_court/e2egm9a/

Quote
That may be, but this was a frivolous waste of time and money.

- You didn't do the research
- You basically ignored what you signed and AGREED to
- You spent money filing a losing lawsuit
- You spent money paying for air fare, spent a whole day on an uncomfortable road trip

The time and money spent in above pursuits could have been spent on -:

- A free phone consultation with ANY lawyer. There are MANY websites where you could have got this - for FREE. Especially since the EULA and TOS are in the public domain for anyone to read and provide a legal interpretation. Hell, there is even a sub Reddit where attorneys hang out and do this sort of thing ALL THE TIME
- Spent about $150 getting an internet attorney (e.g. at www.upcounsel.com, www.findlaw.com or similar) to review the TOS and explain what you were faced with

Had you done the above, you would either have abandoned the attempt or gone directly to arbitration and took your chances there.

But just like the money you flushed down the toilet, you chose to flush even more money down the toilet by pursuing what many believe, and which you had to have suspected, was a waste of time and money.

You don't get any points. You didn't achieve anything. You failed.

In fact, you have caused more harm than good. How?

Because your attempt is now another notch that others can look at and think that CIG is basically within their rights to scam backers out of money. The reality is that going to arbitration - with a good attorney - stands a very good chance of people getting their money back. Reason being, even though arbitrations tend to rule in the favor of companies, an issue like crowd-funding is not the norm. As a result, an arbitrator, once presented with compelling evidence (which backers have in abundance) would better *see* how a company is ripping off customers under the guise of crowd-funding.

You win at arbitration. You make it public. And you set a precedent that opens the flood gates. And just like in the *Epic Systems Corp v Lewis* case DS cited this morning, backers can go to the same attorney and have them file their cases via multiple arbitrations (since they can't get class action lawsuits) using the same boilerplate complaint.

But who wants to spend $1,000 - $1,500 to arbitrate a refund that's less than that?
Star Citizen isn't a game. It's a TV show about a bunch of characters making a game. It's basically "This is Spinal Tap" - except people think the band is real.

dsmart

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Re: Backers v CIG/RSI
« Reply #3 on: July 15, 2018, 09:12:36 AM »
I wrote a short thread on the latest refund debacle

https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1018514650231705602.html
Star Citizen isn't a game. It's a TV show about a bunch of characters making a game. It's basically "This is Spinal Tap" - except people think the band is real.

Meowz

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Re: Backers v CIG/RSI
« Reply #4 on: July 15, 2018, 01:19:47 PM »
the refunds Reddit in general is getting toxic, but that's probability because the ones still stuck are in the perpetual holding pattern. If this sparks them to go to arbitration then all the better.

dsmart

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Re: Backers v CIG/RSI
« Reply #5 on: July 16, 2018, 04:06:26 AM »
the refunds Reddit in general is getting toxic, but that's probability because the ones still stuck are in the perpetual holding pattern. If this sparks them to go to arbitration then all the better.

Yeah, we've been discussing that on Discord. The reason is that some of them are the same toxic ass-clowns who were previously on the flip-side of the farce.
Star Citizen isn't a game. It's a TV show about a bunch of characters making a game. It's basically "This is Spinal Tap" - except people think the band is real.

rwc117

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Re: Backers v CIG/RSI
« Reply #6 on: July 18, 2018, 01:14:24 PM »
The question is, if you're a backer that read your articles and NEVER accepted a new TOS since v1.2 because playing a broken Beta was not worth the risk of losing the important verbage in that TOS...

...Do those backers have standing to get a refund from CIG?  Or are they in the same 'screwed' boat as the people who have been clicking and agreeing for the past 3 years?

dsmart

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Re: Backers v CIG/RSI
« Reply #7 on: July 18, 2018, 02:41:54 PM »
The question is, if you're a backer that read your articles and NEVER accepted a new TOS since v1.2 because playing a broken Beta was not worth the risk of losing the important verbage in that TOS...

...Do those backers have standing to get a refund from CIG?  Or are they in the same 'screwed' boat as the people who have been clicking and agreeing for the past 3 years?

Unless they can prove that they didn't access the game after the Aug 2013 TOS, they're in the same boat.
Star Citizen isn't a game. It's a TV show about a bunch of characters making a game. It's basically "This is Spinal Tap" - except people think the band is real.

rwc117

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Re: Backers v CIG/RSI
« Reply #8 on: July 18, 2018, 03:02:31 PM »
This might sound terribly ironic; is it possible to crowdfund an arbitrator?

That is: Find someone who has a TOS from a favorable perspective (pre 2.0)

Screen them to make sure they're not an idiot or a scammer.

Crowdfund a legal defense in order to go through arbitration.

THEN, everyone walks through the door opened up by the attorney, so that all other cases then use the original plaintiff as their boilerplate complaint.

In other words, the wording of the TOS is specifically designed to discourage class actions, but the principle remains - pooling of resources to file one "precedent" case in arbitration.  It's just ironic that you would be using crowdfunding, to help a crowd of people get their money back from some of the worst crowdfunders ever.

helimoth

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Re: Backers v CIG/RSI
« Reply #9 on: July 18, 2018, 03:04:54 PM »
Derek has been right for several years now so anybody who previously did not request a refund in the full knowledge that Derek Smart was right; I have no sympathy for them should they not get their refund now (they won't)

Meowz

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Re: Backers v CIG/RSI
« Reply #10 on: July 18, 2018, 05:17:15 PM »
Derek has been right for several years now so anybody who previously did not request a refund in the full knowledge that Derek Smart was right; I have no sympathy for them should they not get their refund now (they won't)

Assuming they knew with full range of opinions. I do have sympathy for anyone just now getting disgruntled and seeking out dissenting opinions. I got my refund shortly before 3.0 dropped because I believed Derek when he said they would stop refunds based off of CR's own words. However, before I got pissed at CIG I rarely ventured beyond the RSI website and was not a part of reddit. So you got a guy that his cult friend talks him into the game, skews the facts and history and he gets pumped like everyone else who got a refund only to find out a NO REFUNDS.

Now you could argue that there is enough negative press out there that something should have at least tipped him off to the fact that not all is well in CIG land, but no, I am not going to withdraw sympathy from people because they were "late to the refund party". The cultizens ya, fuck them, but the backer that got excited bought a cool, but expensive ship then finds out just what a shit show it really is after the refund door closed I do very much feel sorry for.

vintologi.com

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Re: Backers v CIG/RSI
« Reply #11 on: July 19, 2018, 07:33:07 AM »
Obviously the grey market is the only viable option at this point, a lot of people wil have to take a loss at more than  70%. I feel bad for people than spended 1000$+ at this 'dream' (nightmare).

StanTheMan

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Re: Backers v CIG/RSI
« Reply #12 on: July 20, 2018, 07:19:46 PM »
Assuming they knew with full range of opinions. I do have sympathy for anyone just now getting disgruntled and seeking out dissenting opinions. I got my refund shortly before 3.0 dropped because I believed Derek when he said they would stop refunds based off of CR's own words. However, before I got pissed at CIG I rarely ventured beyond the RSI website and was not a part of reddit. So you got a guy that his cult friend talks him into the game, skews the facts and history and he gets pumped like everyone else who got a refund only to find out a NO REFUNDS.

Now you could argue that there is enough negative press out there that something should have at least tipped him off to the fact that not all is well in CIG land, but no, I am not going to withdraw sympathy from people because they were "late to the refund party". The cultizens ya, fuck them, but the backer that got excited bought a cool, but expensive ship then finds out just what a shit show it really is after the refund door closed I do very much feel sorry for.

come on...a kid sure but many Backers are well past their early adulthood and experience should inform them to put the brakes on sooner.   

Then there is doing due diligence.   Young people are in school/college etc and specifically doing (or should be doing) research on various topics on a regular basis.   We should expect them to apply these skills on their gaming hobby.

The guy also got a bit too butt hurt defensive too soon when OSK was telling him the truth - albeit without much empathy.   You have to be thicker skinned and more honest with yourself than that.

Aya Reiko

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Re: Backers v CIG/RSI
« Reply #13 on: July 20, 2018, 11:01:30 PM »
Even in defeat, I wonder if this situation will end up chipping away at CiG's reputation.

Then again, that would be like tossing a snowball into an avalanche at this point.

dsmart

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Re: Backers v CIG/RSI
« Reply #14 on: July 21, 2018, 07:56:24 AM »
Star Citizen isn't a game. It's a TV show about a bunch of characters making a game. It's basically "This is Spinal Tap" - except people think the band is real.

 

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