Author Topic: Star Citizen General BS  (Read 566425 times)

Newbest

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Re: Star Citizen - The Game
« Reply #15 on: November 23, 2016, 09:01:36 PM »
I'd like to welcome Newbest - and differentiate this forum from an echo chamber like Reddit in doing so.  Respectful discourse is best.

Thanks for the welcome. I have been watching from the outside looking for quite some time now and thought to add some perspective as someone who is in neither camp but a student of game design.

Newbest - nobody thinks the production companies are fake.

There is an active narrative that would disagree with this statement. Or if that isn't the case it makes no sense that comments were made to "hint" that the company was somehow not really a games studio.

The disconnect is only in one place - Chris.  Aside from Wing Commander (a game made so long ago it shipped on 5.25" floppy disks) his history is mixed at best.  Once he milked the good will out of his original franchise, he ran everything else into the ground.  Even Freelancer, his last reasonable foray into gaming, had to be taken from him and released by a real production company.  That was in 2000 - 16 years ago.

This is an understandable stance to take if you have never developed video games before. While agreed he produced games 16 years ago those games were very successful when released and seem to be still enjoyed to this day. The Wing Commander Series was an excellent set of games when released. Having been around for when they were released they were some of the best games available to play on the systems at the time. Origin as a whole was producing fantastic games in that era. Game design is like riding a bike, you do not forget how to do it. What Chris may lack in technical understanding he makes up for by hiring people that can fill those voids and get the job done.

Since that time Chris has not been in the gaming industry, and has not learned anything during his absence.  Now that he's back, he's literally reinventing and rediscovering almost two decades of gaming lessons first hand, not because gaming best practices have failed to evolve, but because he doesn't think any game developers over a near 20 year period have anything to teach him.
That arrogance led him to commit an extraordinary amount of his backer money into lavish offices in 4 countries across the world, filling them with the accumulated bric-a-brac that actual development companies, such as Blizzard, had to earn over decades of hard work and actual produced, shipped, and commercially successful products and IPs.  He skipped all that and went straight for the appearance of success.  CIG, as an entity, has no games to its name, shipped or otherwise.

CIG needs offices to work, having non-dumpy offices help get work done as employees enjoy working in a nice space. As well, when moving forward and looking to the future all capital expenses around offices only help with optics when it comes to attracting other investors. Would you want to work in a dump? Bric-a-brac will come in from everyone that works there. Game developers are notorious for bringing in man dolls and the like.

There is no documentation or plan for what the actual game systems are, but instead, what we have are nothing more than potential game assets, that Chris, being out of the industry for too long and refusing to listen to people who know more than him, thinks will plug together like Lego bricks and a game will pop out.  The engine is a Frankenstein's monster of garbled code that's barely holding at the seams.  Rather than being the typical state of a pre-alpha, CIG's engine, in contrast, gets weaker and more prone to catastrophic failure with every patch.

Never, ever, ever, ;) has a game developer ever released design docs while working on a project. Those are 100% internal documents ment for employees eyes only. Seeing as none of us work at CIG we are unfit to comment on the state of the current game design. Chris has also employed people from the current industry who know how to make games. And yes he is listening to them. Work is getting done. The fact that they have taken Cryengine and refactored the bejezus out of it shows you they have talent on their team. They are using an engine that has a great foundation. This is to be applauded because they have chosen not to re-invent the wheel but have instead adopted and re-engineered a wicked engine. As well the have engineers from Crytek itself who know this tech inside and out, which explains the things they have been able to do in the game.

Chris, in short, has no idea how to turn the ideas in his head into the game he's promised.  He knows where he wants to be, but has no idea how to get there.  That makes him an inappropriate steward of backer cash.  Regardless of whether or not he came up with the idea, whether or not he's the visionary, all that is secondary - if he can't turn that vision into reality, and hand the reins of development and leadership to a competent individual and retain a position as lead designer, rather than CIG godhead, it's extraordinarily unlikely that Star Citizen can fulfill its potential.

I would disagree. They are making progress and building a foundation. As I stated before, in game development you find as you go along goals move. What you once thought was awesome and sweet can now become even awesomer and sweeter. They have a plan, they are executing it, it just isnt happening as publicly or as transparently as you would like. Got it. Well unfortunately that is how game development goes. They are not required to disclose everything to you. And yes I understand that people may be backers, but you backed the game to be released and not how it gets developed. And fortunately if this is something someone does not like, they can back out and get a refund. What is strange is the level of hate being generated by those who no longer agree with the game. You are 100% allowed to not want the game or even like how it is unfolding, but ad hominem attacks on Chris's character or his ability is strange. Have you ever even spoken to him, have you developed games at his level before? I believe not judging someone before walking a mile in their shoes might be a better way to approach this.

Consider other large companies and how close they can come to the edge of oblivion based on leadership decisions.  Netflix was doing great, and with one bad decision, nearly ceased to exist overnight.  Fortunately in their case they course-corrected in time.  And Netflix had a product.  How many bad decisions can CIG make, back to back, and stay in business, when they have yet to design a business model built on residual income?

The company is not on the edge of collapse. CIG understands how to run a business. They are not seat of the pantsing this ride. They do actually have a business model already in the works through the selling of ships and or credits. Much like almost every other game now being created micro transactions are going to be supported. CIG does not want to collapse and Chris is not leading them to this.

Remember, it's not his money.  We might know that, but I don't think Chris Roberts knows that.  Or cares.

Lets bring this all back around to, you disagree with Chris's abilities so you have dropped your supported and pulled out. Excellent. But to suggest Chris doesnt see the fortunate position he is in is misguided.

Chris is as passionate about games as Derek is and you can be sure Derek leads in the same way as Chris. His vision is the vision. Perhaps this is why there is so much discord, because Chris has managed to harness the ability to create the game he loves and knows that others love as well. Derek unfortunately has not had this opportunity.

This game is taking some time to build. Other games have taken some time to build. This game has the luxury of not being beholden to a publisher which in turns lets schedules become more fluid, which in turns means things take longer, which in turn means thing can get polished, which in turn means the game will be better still. Can we please drop the narrative that Chris somehow has no idea what he is doing and somehow hasnt managed to hire people who know how to make game? Because truly that seems to be what this comes back to every time.

Some people dont like how long it take to get games made, got it. But everyone one else is okay with it and is willing to see this through. Super. Now lets get back to playing other games and ignore this one if its not you cup of tea, or dont ignore it if it is. But this game aint coming out soon and thats okay and not some nefarious plot.

Word to all your moms.
Peace.
« Last Edit: November 23, 2016, 09:04:30 PM by Newbest »

Scruffpuff

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Re: Star Citizen - The Game
« Reply #16 on: November 23, 2016, 09:10:13 PM »
Lots of stuff.

Thanks for the thought-out replies.  We're obviously entrenched in our positions so I'll just make 2 clarifications:

1)  I haven't pulled out or received a refund.  I'm sticking with it to see what happens.
2)  Chris has shown repeatedly that he does not listen to or trust his crew.  I'm afraid I don't have specific examples but I suspect many here have several.  Has that changed recently?  I don't know.

Just don't be one of those guys who loses his shit if this goes tits up - it's not worth it over a video game.  I don't get that vibe from your writing, so it's probably not necessary for me to say it, but it doesn't hurt to do so anyway.  I don't think some of the current backers are seeing this as optimistically yet still balanced as you - some of these people are going to go mental.

Newbest

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Re: Star Citizen - The Game
« Reply #17 on: November 23, 2016, 09:18:13 PM »
2)  Chris has shown repeatedly that he does not listen to or trust his crew.  I'm afraid I don't have specific examples but I suspect many here have several.  Has that changed recently?  I don't know.

We may all know somewhat else who may be like that if its true. ;)

Just don't be one of those guys who loses his shit if this goes tits up - it's not worth it over a video game.  I don't get that vibe from your writing, so it's probably not necessary for me to say it, but it doesn't hurt to do so anyway.  I don't think some of the current backers are seeing this as optimistically yet still balanced as you - some of these people are going to go mental.

I promise if this were to implode it will not affect my day to day at all.

I would be sad if anything because they have the world at their feet with this momentum. We are witnessing something that has never occurred in the history of game development. To have a studio able to fund their game out of the gate and be able to do it on their terms should be nothing but exciting.

Game development sucks because it can take a long time to actualize what you want but the end result is almost always fantastic.

The level of mental needs to be scaled back on all sides. =)

Mehlan

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Re: Star Citizen - The Game
« Reply #18 on: November 23, 2016, 09:55:25 PM »
"Never, ever, ever, ;) has a game developer ever released design docs while working on a project. Those are 100% internal documents ment for employees eyes only. Seeing as none of us work at CIG we are unfit to comment on the state of the current game design. Chris has also employed people from the current industry who know how to make games. And yes he is listening to them. Work is getting done. The fact that they have taken Cryengine and refactored the bejezus out of it shows you they have talent on their team. They are using an engine that has a great foundation. This is to be applauded because they have chosen not to re-invent the wheel but have instead adopted and re-engineered a wicked engine. As well the have engineers from Crytek itself who know this tech inside and out, which explains the things they have been able to do in the game."

  Work is getting done and they were only able to 'refactor the bejezus' out of it because they got some of the engineers from Crytek.


  Chris is an Idea guy living on the border of lala land..  take a serious look at what the man has said about where the game stands in each of his 'letters' and then the reality of where things stand.


Dec 17, 2013
 ". We’re further along than originally planned in building the tech for the persistent and instancing server backend which will ultimately drive Star Citizen. Both Squadron 42 and First Person Personal combat / boarding have full teams working in parallel, in addition to the teams in Los Angeles, Austin and Montreal working on the Dogfighting and Planetside components. We have smaller groups of people supporting these efforts from CGBot in Austin & Monterrey, Mexico and Void Alpha in San Francisco."

 Yep, back in good old 2013 They were 'further along than originally planned'....and here we are almost 3 years later, SQ42 now has a supposed 2017 release date, FPS is a joke and star marine is still vaporware.


 The Hype and all the BS are repeated attempts to buy time.  The 'internal schedule', live streams etc are nothing but elaborate Smoke & mirrors, carrots & sticks while they struggle to actually 'produce' something functional out of the behemoth of bs.

Newbest

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Re: Star Citizen - The Game
« Reply #19 on: November 23, 2016, 10:24:42 PM »
The Hype and all the BS are repeated attempts to buy time.  The 'internal schedule', live streams etc are nothing but elaborate Smoke & mirrors, carrots & sticks while they struggle to actually 'produce' something functional out of the behemoth of bs.

They dont need to buy time, they can take all the time they like. And lets remember they dont want to take up all the time. They want to release the game, they really do.

The smoke and mirror narrative is itself smoke and mirrors. The game is being made, the progress is happening, yes it is taking a long time and making games is hard. Welcome to game dev 101.

Those live streams are not fake, there is a game under there, yes it is bug ridden but that is because it is in development. Everyone can agree this one is taking a long time to make. Excellent.

I am positive those that can wait will be happy they did. Those that dont want to wait will be happy they didnt. Everybody wins!

Mehlan

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Re: Star Citizen - The Game
« Reply #20 on: November 23, 2016, 10:50:29 PM »
" They dont need to buy time, they can take all the time they like. "

 No they can't, time & funding is not infinite.  Take sufficient 'time', they will run out of $ and thus out of time.

 Yes we know they are trying to make the 'game', reality is, it is taking them a longer than CR himself had 'hoped'.
  IF CR & CIG were so sure, they wouldn't keep changing the ToS to cover their arse.

"Those live streams are not fake"
   
   Go back and review some of those 2015 'livestreams' of Star Marine... 

   Which brings us back to the smoke & mirrors....
    Note the now '2017' date on the SQ42 Trailer.
    Go back and review all the footage and commentary from CIG in regards to Star Marine...
      Then compare that to the information from the Kotaku UK article(s)
      The Khartu-al flap
      DFM/Arena Commander, the delay notice and what was released.
      Gamescon & the handling of CitizenCon-SQ42

   CIG has yet to introduce any real 'new', relatively stable 'playable' functionality since Arena Commander.

  'Seamless translations', 'Planetary Landing' etc..all vaporware until such time as it actually is 'patched' to their 'live' server.
« Last Edit: November 23, 2016, 10:59:38 PM by Mehlan »

StarBallz

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Re: Star Citizen - The Game
« Reply #21 on: November 24, 2016, 01:23:42 AM »
I don't think this game was made to be a scam but it certainly lloks many times like it when you're selling so many ships for these incredible high prices.
They'll have a very hard time to get everything together as CR thinks it'll look like.
They haven't shown anything yet that would indicate a system they have in place that could work.

I'm not a fan of Derek but he's just right, it's all smoke & mirrors, will never ever get done the way CR dreamed it up.

And please stop comparing this game to other games that took a very long time to develop, like GTA, Diablo and so on. Those are professional companies that developed and more important delivered feasible features and games. And I'm still surprised that many companies want to make the next big MMO, focus on producing quality first before going mental.

AP

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Re: Star Citizen - The Game
« Reply #22 on: November 24, 2016, 02:22:48 AM »
I promise if this were to implode it will not affect my day to day at all.

It would ruin my whole week, I wouldn't get any work done watching people who've spent thousands on a game that will never come out running around and screaming on the internet.

dsmart

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Re: Star Citizen - The Game
« Reply #23 on: November 24, 2016, 07:59:55 AM »
Chris is as passionate about games as Derek is and you can be sure Derek leads in the same way as Chris. His vision is the vision. Perhaps this is why there is so much discord, because Chris has managed to harness the ability to create the game he loves and knows that others love as well. Derek unfortunately has not had this opportunity.

I'm not sure what precisely you were thinking when you posted that.

First of all, I "lead" nothing like him. I have a small crew of indies, including third-party contractors. You don't see anyone running around screaming about how I "lead". I'm a "hands off" type of leader. And that's because when I embark on a project, I have clear goals, a schedule - and a vision. Each member in the team knows  precisely what we're aiming for, and nothing - ever - changes mid-stream, and which would put the project at risk. I never deviate from that. Which is why, decades later, I have different types of games all in the same IP that I created decades ago including space sim combat (Battlecruiser/Universal Combat), FPS (All Aspect Warfare), Aerial combat (Angle Of Attack), RTS (Line Of Defense Tactics), combined arms (All Aspect Warfare, Line Of Defense) etc - it's all cohesive, never strays from the norm. And I don't reach for the unreachable.

Chris hasn't "managed to harness the ability to create the game he loves" because he hasn't CREATED IT!. And by all accounts, NEVER WILL.

You, like most, are confusing money with abilities. I have built my games - with my own money - for decades now. The games are out there being bought and played by those who like those kinds of games and who share my vision. I don't have a Leprechaun chained in my basement shitting Gold coins. My business makes its money from my games. So even if 10 people buy my game, that's 10 people who did so for a reason. On the other hand, Star Citizen - as pitched - can never be built. This has already been PROVEN without a doubt, as per the fact that 4yrs + $134 million later, not only is it not even 15% completed, but many promised features have either been cut, walked back or never going to be done. These are all FACTS.

Comparing me to Chris, is just as bad as comparing Star Citizen to Line Of Defense. It's a bullshit non-starter. Get a grip.

They dont need to buy time, they can take all the time they like. And lets remember they dont want to take up all the time. They want to release the game, they really do.

This is the same nonsense that you guys keep spouting. It's rubbish. No, they "can't take all the time they like". I mean seriously; where do you get this from? Why do you think they keep resorting to desperate measures to keep raising money? Now, we are at the end of 2016, and as I said in the OP, they have not shown ANYTHING tangible for a project which, by end of Dec, would have been funded to the tune of over $30 million dollars.
« Last Edit: November 24, 2016, 08:08:07 AM by dsmart »
Star Citizen isn't a game. It's a TV show about a bunch of characters making a game. It's basically "This is Spinal Tap" - except people think the band is real.

TylerDurd0n

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Re: Star Citizen - The Game
« Reply #24 on: November 24, 2016, 01:33:53 PM »
The disconnect is only in one place - Chris.  Aside from Wing Commander (a game made so long ago it shipped on 5.25" floppy disks) his history is mixed at best.  Once he milked the good will out of his original franchise, he ran everything else into the ground.  Even Freelancer, his last reasonable foray into gaming, had to be taken from him and released by a real production company.  That was in 2000 - 16 years ago.

This is an understandable stance to take if you have never developed video games before. While agreed he produced games 16 years ago those games were very successful when released and seem to be still enjoyed to this day. The Wing Commander Series was an excellent set of games when released. Having been around for when they were released they were some of the best games available to play on the systems at the time. Origin as a whole was producing fantastic games in that era. Game design is like riding a bike, you do not forget how to do it. What Chris may lack in technical understanding he makes up for by hiring people that can fill those voids and get the job done.

Honest question: Have you developed and/or released games? I've seen remarks like that on the forums as well as on the subreddit and most of them don't align with my experience in the industry or that of my peers. I've seen backers telling actual (anonymous) game developers that they have no clue about game development.

Game design is evolving constantly and the pace has only increased in recent years. While developing a game at least a few competitors will come up with amazing ideas and solutions to design problems you are currently facing and you know that you can't do anything about it and have to ship a game with a less-then-great part of your design. That's "normal", because you need to release a game and can't play "catch-up" all the time (also because you normally don't have unlimited time and/or money - and that's a good thing™).

It takes 1-2 games to change the landscape and player expectations with it. Look at the rise of MOBAs. Starcraft's not the biggest eSports game around anymore, as MOBAs' razor-sharp focus on team play and your single (!) unit has overtaken it massively. Blizzard was fortunate enough to identify the toxicity and elitism of LoL's player base as something they can exploit with their more "noob"-friendly HOTS (and MOBAs itself are a poster child for the more modern "release early/iterate often" school of game development).

And that's just one example of many. Look at how ridiculous weapon customisation has become in modern military shooters. How action-oriented western RPGs have become. The rise of companion apps or websites.

CR himself noted that he "needs" to release a game by 2014 to avoid it becoming stale. He was right. But then the money came rolling in and for some reason he thought abandoning that plan was a good choice. Now they're playing catch-up.

And let's put down those rose-tinted glasses when it comes to Wing Commander - gameplay-wise that game was ok. It delivered a cinematic experience and combined spaceflight gameplay with a pulp SciFi story. But it (as much as it's successors) was never a joy to play - how they didn't even think about improving that janky, twitchy spaceflight at all boggles my mind.

Since that time Chris has not been in the gaming industry, and has not learned anything during his absence.  Now that he's back, he's literally reinventing and rediscovering almost two decades of gaming lessons first hand, not because gaming best practices have failed to evolve, but because he doesn't think any game developers over a near 20 year period have anything to teach him.
That arrogance led him to commit an extraordinary amount of his backer money into lavish offices in 4 countries across the world, filling them with the accumulated bric-a-brac that actual development companies, such as Blizzard, had to earn over decades of hard work and actual produced, shipped, and commercially successful products and IPs.  He skipped all that and went straight for the appearance of success.  CIG, as an entity, has no games to its name, shipped or otherwise.

CIG needs offices to work, having non-dumpy offices help get work done as employees enjoy working in a nice space. As well, when moving forward and looking to the future all capital expenses around offices only help with optics when it comes to attracting other investors. Would you want to work in a dump? Bric-a-brac will come in from everyone that works there. Game developers are notorious for bringing in man dolls and the like.

Nobody cares about the bric-a-brac that devs bring to the office, but what he's alluding to is the massive amount of stuff that's on display in the offices for a game that isn't even out yet. Calling them out for spending money on that is often construed as expecting them to sit in unheated huts, but that's a logical fallacy. Of course they need decent offices, but what CIG does ($20k coffee machines or not) veers into "lavish office" territory. And if all you got is backer money, I don't think that a certain amount of decency with regards to how you spend that money would hurt.

They could of course release financial statements that prove that no backer money had been spent on the ship models, posters, expensive desks, sofas, spaceship doors, etc.. Yet they rather chose to refund people's pledges than show some numbers, so there you go.. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

There is no documentation or plan for what the actual game systems are, but instead, what we have are nothing more than potential game assets, that Chris, being out of the industry for too long and refusing to listen to people who know more than him, thinks will plug together like Lego bricks and a game will pop out.  The engine is a Frankenstein's monster of garbled code that's barely holding at the seams.  Rather than being the typical state of a pre-alpha, CIG's engine, in contrast, gets weaker and more prone to catastrophic failure with every patch.

Never, ever, ever, ;) has a game developer ever released design docs while working on a project. Those are 100% internal documents ment for employees eyes only. Seeing as none of us work at CIG we are unfit to comment on the state of the current game design. Chris has also employed people from the current industry who know how to make games. And yes he is listening to them. Work is getting done. The fact that they have taken Cryengine and refactored the bejezus out of it shows you they have talent on their team. They are using an engine that has a great foundation. This is to be applauded because they have chosen not to re-invent the wheel but have instead adopted and re-engineered a wicked engine. As well the have engineers from Crytek itself who know this tech inside and out, which explains the things they have been able to do in the game.

Never, ever, ever, has a developer raised $130 million in crowdfunding, used that money to open 4 studios world wide, booked The Imaginarium for performance capture sessions with a Hollywood cast and 4 years later (if you're generous) hasn't delivered anything that resembles a product with working game systems. People tout that CIG is doing what nobody has tried/done before and that's why people should believe in it. How about fulfilling that "open development" promise for once, communicating setbacks, stupid mistakes, rollbacks, roadblocks, design issues, redesigns - you know all the things that happen during development that sometimes set you back to square one. How about being open about this right when it happens and not when it can't be avoided anymore (remember that Star Marine was "just weeks away" before being scrapped after months of silence)?

Being truly open about these things would also be something that nobody has tried/done before and it sure would be appreciated. That's why so many consider "The Pledge" to be unfulfilled/broken by CIG. I've experienced first hand what can and will go wrong during game development, yet none of these things ever came up in CIG's coverage.

Now - the engine. Choosing CryEngine was a questionable choice (why would you chose the engine with the comparably smallest dev community and thus lowest amount of available experience in the industry) right from the start. It wasn't exactly perfect for the original pitch, but it had the benefit of saving costs which - for a crowdfunded game - was appreciated.

But the moment that CIG chose to balloon the scope of the game, they should've thought long and hard about keeping that engine. At times it seems that the engine itself is actively fighting against CIG, exposing bugs and glitches the more they're changing it. The cruft that it has amassed over the years must be horrible (and whenever I see parts of the source code on Bugsmashers I get cold shivers).

Hindsight is 20/20 but I (and many others) thought that this engine was not a great choice in 2012. So far it hasn't proven us wrong.

Chris, in short, has no idea how to turn the ideas in his head into the game he's promised.  He knows where he wants to be, but has no idea how to get there.  That makes him an inappropriate steward of backer cash.  Regardless of whether or not he came up with the idea, whether or not he's the visionary, all that is secondary - if he can't turn that vision into reality, and hand the reins of development and leadership to a competent individual and retain a position as lead designer, rather than CIG godhead, it's extraordinarily unlikely that Star Citizen can fulfill its potential.

I would disagree. They are making progress and building a foundation. As I stated before, in game development you find as you go along goals move. What you once thought was awesome and sweet can now become even awesomer and sweeter. They have a plan, they are executing it, it just isnt happening as publicly or as transparently as you would like. Got it. Well unfortunately that is how game development goes. They are not required to disclose everything to you. And yes I understand that people may be backers, but you backed the game to be released and not how it gets developed. And fortunately if this is something someone does not like, they can back out and get a refund. What is strange is the level of hate being generated by those who no longer agree with the game. You are 100% allowed to not want the game or even like how it is unfolding, but ad hominem attacks on Chris's character or his ability is strange. Have you ever even spoken to him, have you developed games at his level before? I believe not judging someone before walking a mile in their shoes might be a better way to approach this.

Well The Pledge that CR posted right after the first round of funding was achieved likes to have a word with you:

Quote from: ChrisRoberts
We, the Star Citizen team at Cloud Imperium, hereby promise to deliver the game you expect.

(cont'd)

We, the Developer, intend to treat you with the same respect we would give a publisher. You will receive regular updates about the progress of the game.

I've worked with investors/publishers and did pitches or regular dev updates for them. If I had been as "open" as CIG is, they would have demanded a change of leadership of the company and installed one of theirs to do oversight and keep us in check.

Analogies are a dime a dozen, but if Tesla behaved like CIG, they would still work on building the factory that produces the robots that one day will manufacture the Model S you pledged for and in the meantime have chosen that they also need to reinvent the actual construction robots.

---

Again I don't know if those that tell others that they don't understand game development have ever worked in the industry before. And I can just speak from my experience in software and game development. So naturally my experience and knowledge is limited. But the image that is purported in the SC community is at times a gross misrepresentation of

  • how Game development works
  • the role of publishers/investors
  • the influence(!) of publishers/investors
  • the impact of CIG's efforts

among other things.

"Better is the enemy of good" and "perfection is achieved not when there's nothing to add, but when there's nothing left to remove" are as true as ever. Both are hard lessons to learn. Both help you in delivering actual products. Both assist you in "letting go". Those are good things! Constraints and deadlines fuel creativity. And they force you to come up with "good enough" solutions to focus on the bigger picture (which is a final product).

The reason us other developers don't chase those "impossible" (lol) solutions for the most part is not because they're "impossible" but rather that they're not worth it. If needed you can fake it and the player will never now (mostly because she usually just doesn't care). The time saved there can then be spent on other things.

CIG is therefore just another example of why crowdfunding the game development heroes of yesteryear is a bad idea for the most part. They go on and on about how publishers and investors have stifled their creativity and how their "disappointing" games could've been so much better. And big enough parts of the audience drank that kool-aid (the superiority complex of PC gamers probably helped as well).

JohnGorno

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Re: Star Citizen - The Game
« Reply #25 on: November 24, 2016, 02:39:52 PM »
I think people see a game in development. Beyond that, I can't think of a game that has the features SC combined into one seamless game.

There is no MMO space sim with first person where you can walk around on every ship while it flies with thousands of miles per hours through a system, have a fire fight on board whilst other ships try to blast holes in it from the outside. I mean, maybe there is one, but I guess I have missed that. :psyduck:

I fail to see the MMO side in star citizen. Crashes when 5 people connect.... how is this an MMO!

I think that would be LoD though. And regardless of what it is now, because development, it is aiming to have a persistent universe where everyone plays in. And that is in fact per definition a MMO.

dsmart

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Re: Star Citizen - The Game
« Reply #26 on: November 25, 2016, 05:20:42 AM »

*snip*

I've worked with investors/publishers and did pitches or regular dev updates for them. If I had been as "open" as CIG is, they would have demanded a change of leadership of the company and installed one of theirs to do oversight and keep us in check.

Analogies are a dime a dozen, but if Tesla behaved like CIG, they would still work on building the factory that produces the robots that one day will manufacture the Model S you pledged for and in the meantime have chosen that they also need to reinvent the actual construction robots.

*snip*

The reason us other developers don't chase those "impossible" (lol) solutions for the most part is not because they're "impossible" but rather that they're not worth it. If needed you can fake it and the player will never now (mostly because she usually just doesn't care). The time saved there can then be spent on other things.

CIG is therefore just another example of why crowdfunding the game development heroes of yesteryear is a bad idea for the most part. They go on and on about how publishers and investors have stifled their creativity and how their "disappointing" games could've been so much better. And big enough parts of the audience drank that kool-aid (the superiority complex of PC gamers probably helped as well).

Just want to say that this was an excellent post that touched every single piece of argument these guys bring up and which for some reason they can't quite reconcile.

The part that is really annoying is that they go on about why all this money is a "good" thing, because it means he can make the game he wants, how they are "open" about development, how it's great the don't have the "burden" of a publisher, they are "building" offices and a time, that they are building the tech that would make all these dreams magically possible. Never in my almost 30+ year industry history, have I come across something like this. They are in complete and utter denial; even as 4-5 years and $134 million later, with promise after promise being broken, no game in sight, they still won't accept the fact that the failure of this project is a clear and present danger. They simply refuse to accept it; and they will argue tooth and and nail about why WE are wrong. And they still have NO game.

I think people see a game in development. Beyond that, I can't think of a game that has the features SC combined into one seamless game.

There is no MMO space sim with first person where you can walk around on every ship while it flies with thousands of miles per hours through a system, have a fire fight on board whilst other ships try to blast holes in it from the outside. I mean, maybe there is one, but I guess I have missed that. :psyduck:

I fail to see the MMO side in star citizen. Crashes when 5 people connect.... how is this an MMO!

I think that would be LoD though. And regardless of what it is now, because development, it is aiming to have a persistent universe where everyone plays in. And that is in fact per definition a MMO.

They won't even think or mention LoD though. Because you know, it doesn't have the benefit of $134 million budget and 500+ devs all of which amount only to fancy graphics. Aside from the fact that the game already has a 100% persistent world with no instancing or sharding. But just wait and see what happens in the coming months. That's why I don't even bother arguing with them about LoD.
Star Citizen isn't a game. It's a TV show about a bunch of characters making a game. It's basically "This is Spinal Tap" - except people think the band is real.

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Re: Star Citizen - The Game
« Reply #27 on: November 25, 2016, 09:18:25 AM »
After $134 meelion, CIG has discovered rocks. Watch @ 5:40, then go buy an Idris (while supplies last!)



« Last Edit: November 25, 2016, 09:32:53 AM by dsmart »
Star Citizen isn't a game. It's a TV show about a bunch of characters making a game. It's basically "This is Spinal Tap" - except people think the band is real.

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Re: Star Citizen - The Game
« Reply #28 on: November 25, 2016, 09:56:08 AM »
I'm guessing that 2.6 wont' be hitting Evocati then. And 3.0 is still MIA; aside from the fact that CIG doesn't even talk about it anymore. Remember what I wrote back on Nov 2nd about the status of both these patches?

The minute I saw this bullshit schedule, I knew it was just that: bullshit.

Meanwhile, still no word on the status of the much touted 3.0 (aka Jesus Patch) which was due end of the year.




« Last Edit: November 25, 2016, 10:38:54 AM by dsmart »
Star Citizen isn't a game. It's a TV show about a bunch of characters making a game. It's basically "This is Spinal Tap" - except people think the band is real.

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Re: Star Citizen - The Game
« Reply #29 on: November 25, 2016, 11:55:03 AM »
Full damage control mode activated.

Star Citizen isn't a game. It's a TV show about a bunch of characters making a game. It's basically "This is Spinal Tap" - except people think the band is real.

 

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