Author Topic: Star Citizen General BS  (Read 652701 times)

N0mad

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Re: Star Citizen - The Game
« Reply #1620 on: December 23, 2017, 04:48:29 AM »
When is Sunk Cost Galaxy being released guys?   :supaburn:

N0mad

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Re: Star Citizen - The Game
« Reply #1621 on: December 25, 2017, 04:07:57 AM »
It has begun:


I hadn't realised it was going to be a series. I didn't see the release dates though.

 :supaburn:

UPDATE: Next part is up already !!!
« Last Edit: December 25, 2017, 11:19:12 PM by N0mad »

helimoth

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Re: Star Citizen - The Game
« Reply #1622 on: December 25, 2017, 05:19:58 AM »
feels like this is good of a thread as any to wish all of you magnificent goons/shitlords a merry xmas  :toot:

McDrake

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Re: Star Citizen - The Game
« Reply #1623 on: December 25, 2017, 07:20:30 AM »
feels like this is good of a thread as any to wish all of you magnificent goons/shitlords a merry xmas  :toot:
Thanks. Same to you....all of you ;)

dsmart

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Re: Star Citizen - The Game
« Reply #1624 on: December 25, 2017, 02:09:34 PM »
feels like this is good of a thread as any to wish all of you magnificent goons/shitlords a merry xmas  :toot:

Yup, it sure is!! Merry Christmas & Happy Holidays fellow shitlords!  :laugh: :supaburn:

Star Citizen isn't a game. It's a TV show about a bunch of characters making a game. It's basically "This is Spinal Tap" - except people think the band is real.

jwh1701

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Re: Star Citizen - The Game
« Reply #1625 on: January 01, 2018, 06:35:51 PM »
Happy new years everyone.
I'm not sure if this is the correct thread for this or not. This popup up in suggestions:

Live stream talking about have massive server meshes to accommodate 1000 people. So I grabbed that and put into to google and got this thread.

I have grasped a few things about game development reading and researching. The only thing in this thread I have put my hands on is VM and used extensively. I have built cluster systems using MS and ONtap but not sure if these are similar to game servers.

https://robertsspaceindustries.com/spectrum/community/SC/forum/50259/thread/how-many-people-can-be-in-an-instance/198078

If anyone can answer or provide details on what Clive is proposing is possible? Can server meshes and handle 1000 players? A person name Valaska seems to have some knowledge and greatly disagrees.

Thank you

Matriarch

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Re: Star Citizen - The Game
« Reply #1626 on: January 01, 2018, 11:07:00 PM »
If anyone can answer or provide details on what Clive is proposing is possible? Can server meshes and handle 1000 players? A person name Valaska seems to have some knowledge and greatly disagrees.

Long-time lurker, first time poster.

Derek wrote a good post about just this issue in October last year:

http://dereksmart.com/forums/reply/5949/

Short answer, it's never going to happen. Long answer, it's technically possible but it's a very complex system that will take a long time to develop and debug, and they're starting on it very late in the piece.

From a technical point of view, it's not a hardware issue, it's a software issue. Sure, there are many amazing cloud computing technologies at the moment that allow you to scale server resources instantly to your computing demands, but the magic is in the software that you write to run on those resources. We're talking about a distributed software computing system, presumably with the intelligence to dynamically partition bits of the game world, to handle balancing and passing of users between servers, and to (intelligently) send relevant game world data between servers, while filtering out or minimising the passing of irrelevant data. It's not an easy job. You need to write code to do all that, in a way that integrates with the way the engine's networking functions work, and then spend time debugging the myriad of weird and wonderful emergent behaviours that arise in distributed systems (things not getting passed around, too many things being passed, scalability and performance, duplicated data, split brain, race conditions etc. etc.)

Source: I'm a software engineer who builds distributed systems (not games, but ones that do cool science with big, dangerous moving parts that can kill people if you write crap code).

This links into broader issues about the game and its development that Derek has been talking about for the last two and a half years, but which many people seem unable to grasp. Yes, progress is being made. New features are being implemented. Bugs are being fixed. Promises are being delivered on. But progress is so slow that the game, as promised, can never be made in a reasonable period of time. Yes, maybe given another ten years and another hundred million dollars, but it looks doubtful they're going to get either the time or the money, as they're pissing off more and more backers with constant glacial progress, lack of delivery on promises and endless appeals for more time and money.

So, going back to the server meshing, it's technically possible but they're never going to finish it because they'll have run out of time and money before they do.

You find parallels in a lot of the other questionable tech products that are heavily promoted and crowdfunded, but fail before or after coming to market - the product is based on sound technical principles which are within the realm of physical possibility, but it's simply not possible to create the product due to engineering challenges, the product doesn't make economic sense or it's implemented so badly that nobody wants it. Arguably Star Citizen is all three. Possible to build but implausible to engineer (at least with the currently expanded scope), not economically viable (as the niche market isn't big enough to provide the funds required to realise the scope), and badly implemented (full of annoying bugs and unnecessarily autistic gameplay mechanics, and what they have managed to build has been done inefficiently due to Chris Roberts' leadership style).

I don't know why on Earth people want to make Derek out as the bad guy in all this. Quite the opposite - he's clearly a talented developer with a deep sense of commitment to the space genre, and indie game development in general, and he's despairing at what he sees - a development process that more than likely will disappoint everyone who backed it, if it's not a downright failure, doing serious harm to the genre, indie development and crowdfunding of games for years to come. I'm reading posts even now where people are looking at the state of "Alpha 3.0", as little as it is after several years of development, and saying "Whelp, that was a total rubbish fire. I'm definitely not crowdfunding another indie game again".

It's a total disaster and my hat is off to Derek that he sounded the alarm bells so long ago now. He was right, and I think has already been proven so even prior to the eventual failure of the development (the ELE).

helimoth

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Re: Star Citizen - The Game
« Reply #1627 on: January 02, 2018, 03:44:06 AM »
from https://www.robertsspaceindustries.com/comm-link/transmission/12790-4-Million-New-System-New-Ship-New-Goals




Above screenshot is part of the sc 'lore' explaining the collapse of the SynthWorld project but I think it sounds eerily similar to how another project might be described at its demise.

Kyrt

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Re: Star Citizen - The Game
« Reply #1628 on: January 02, 2018, 04:17:53 AM »
Live stream talking about have massive server meshes to accommodate 1000 people. So I grabbed that and put into to google and got this thread.

I have grasped a few things about game development reading and researching. The only thing in this thread I have put my hands on is VM and used extensively. I have built cluster systems using MS and ONtap but not sure if these are similar to game servers.

https://robertsspaceindustries.com/spectrum/community/SC/forum/50259/thread/how-many-people-can-be-in-an-instance/198078

If anyone can answer or provide details on what Clive is proposing is possible? Can server meshes and handle 1000 players? A person name Valaska seems to have some knowledge and greatly disagrees.

Thank you

It depends on a number of factors.

There is work the server does, there is work the client does and there is the network which passes information between them.

The server meshing Clive Johnson is talking about is simply saying that the server workload for an instance will be shared by a number of servers, which in turn will be created as server requirements dictate. Each server will be responsible for a certain region within the instance...a zone...and interaction between the zones will be possible because servers talk to each other.

Think Warcraft. An instance would be a continent...say Kalimdor. A zone would be a zone. If you are in Ashenvale, you can still see and interact with people in the Barrens even though you are managed by different servers.

The network part is where servers talk to clients. The aim here is to streamline and manage the data so that items of interest are updated with more detail and more often. Again, with Warcraft, if you are in Silithus you can't see the two characters in Ashenvale or the Barrens so the servers should cull that data and not send it to you. There is no point wasting bandwidth or CPU cycles with data that is of no use.

And the client uses that data to render and display and update the position and status of every entity your avatar can see, plus other tasks.

For 1000 players in an instance.....

Those thousand players have to connect to the Star Citizen data cloud and be assigned to the sane instance. Each will be assigned to a zone controlled by a server. As they get closer together, more servers will be created to handle the increased workload due to the increase in potential interactions between these entities. There is an overhead associated with this as the servers will also need to talk with and interact with each other and there is a limit based on physical servers numbers and location.

Can the servers handle 1000 players in an instance? Given enough hardware capacity and a system designed to handle such a load? Yes.

The network? There are limits here that are physical. If the data centre has a 1 gig link, you can't create a virtual datastream when it fills up. The servers need to cull the data to an extent the the data link into your PC can handle it.

1000 players in an instance sounds like a lot...and it is. But those 1000 players may be in 50 ships, each of which is its own zone so those 1000 players may translate down to the data for a mere handful of entities that your PC needs to know about.

And if the data is culled properly, then the client doesn't have to do a lot of work to portray them.

So......you'll note that 1000 players in an instance doesn't translate into 1000 player mega combat fests.

More...while this is highly simplified...it should be clear that what CIG are aiming for is TECHNICALLY possible and certainly feasible...partly because they are a little vague on what they mean by "instance"...but requires a great deal of planning and design that can't really be tacked on.

And that's something I don't see much sign of from CIG.
 






StanTheMan

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Re: Star Citizen - The Game
« Reply #1629 on: January 02, 2018, 04:56:11 AM »
You dont have to be a games developer to know that CRoberts and CIG are a joke and that this is NEVER going to happen.

You wouldnt back someone that cant get a bike to work to get you to Mars.

So far after 170 mil and all these years CIG hasnt got the bike to work and he is a monumental shameless liar..

Moreover whilst it might be technically possible no one else has done it and plenty have been in the business of developing MMOs with far more success than Croberts..d
« Last Edit: January 02, 2018, 06:11:57 AM by StanTheMan »

dsmart

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Re: Star Citizen - The Game
« Reply #1630 on: January 02, 2018, 06:48:55 AM »
Happy new years everyone.
I'm not sure if this is the correct thread for this or not. This popup up in suggestions:

Live stream talking about have massive server meshes to accommodate 1000 people. So I grabbed that and put into to google and got this thread.

I have grasped a few things about game development reading and researching. The only thing in this thread I have put my hands on is VM and used extensively. I have built cluster systems using MS and ONtap but not sure if these are similar to game servers.

https://robertsspaceindustries.com/spectrum/community/SC/forum/50259/thread/how-many-people-can-be-in-an-instance/198078

If anyone can answer or provide details on what Clive is proposing is possible? Can server meshes and handle 1000 players? A person name Valaska seems to have some knowledge and greatly disagrees.

Thank you

It's bullshit. Move on.
Star Citizen isn't a game. It's a TV show about a bunch of characters making a game. It's basically "This is Spinal Tap" - except people think the band is real.

dsmart

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Re: Star Citizen - The Game
« Reply #1631 on: January 02, 2018, 07:01:26 AM »
I don't know why on Earth people want to make Derek out as the bad guy in all this. Quite the opposite - he's clearly a talented developer with a deep sense of commitment to the space genre, and indie game development in general, and he's despairing at what he sees - a development process that more than likely will disappoint everyone who backed it, if it's not a downright failure, doing serious harm to the genre, indie development and crowdfunding of games for years to come. I'm reading posts even now where people are looking at the state of "Alpha 3.0", as little as it is after several years of development, and saying "Whelp, that was a total rubbish fire. I'm definitely not crowdfunding another indie game again".

It's a total disaster and my hat is off to Derek that he sounded the alarm bells so long ago now. He was right, and I think has already been proven so even prior to the eventual failure of the development (the ELE).

Welcome to the forum, n00b! That post is one helluva first impression; especially since around here we just tend to shitpost for lols  :lol:

In all seriousness though, you hit all the key points of this farce - and you didn't even have to write a dozen multi-page blogs to get those points across.

It's so hilarious to me when I look back at July 2015 where I said they couldn't build it without a capable team, capable engine, and not less than $150M. Sure, anything is possible given time and money. Then they blew past $175M (what they claim publicly) + loans, investor money etc - and entering year 7, they don't even have 18% of the game finished. The 3.0 release alone is proof that without the tech, they're going to be throwing money at a problem they can't solve. As they say, you can't squeeze water from stone, but that's basically where they are now. Currently, 3.0 has over 5K bugs, including the 3K that was there since the 2.6.3 release in April 2017. And they have those to contend with, make even more complex by the addition of other key systems that aren't even IN the game engine tech yet.

It's hilarious to me that backers are still talking about server meshes with 1000+ clients, when even RSI/CIG have stopped talking about it for over a year. Which means it's just not happening. And I don't expect it to even appear in the new dev schedules, since that item has never even appeared in ANY of the dev schedules.

My feeling is that they know they've hit a wall, and they also know that the best they're gonna get is to improve on the 50 client instance experience, and also quite possibly go to a player hosted instance model as I suggested here.

Star Citizen isn't a game. It's a TV show about a bunch of characters making a game. It's basically "This is Spinal Tap" - except people think the band is real.

jwh1701

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Re: Star Citizen - The Game
« Reply #1632 on: January 02, 2018, 07:47:09 AM »
Hello Everyone

Matriarch, Kyrt, StanTheMan, dsmart wanted to thank everyone on the comments. Another reason I asked a well is concerning I game I have been playing for years. Its called defiance, since its original inception it has been plagued with disconnects, rubber banding, inability to see other players when you go over 25 in one area. People have been asking them for years to fix these issues. The devs call the instances shards on the forums, the majority of the time when you get more than 25 in an event all the players disappear. This is just fps game and it has many problems. I keep wondering how from a dev stand point can cig truly take crytek engine to the unprecedented level of promises that have been made. Not to give to much away but poor engineering in Ireland led to a real headache for myself and and very large company. We way behind on metrics and after the 23 iteration of the server's motherboard not including that looked like a cob web with the all the additional hand soldier connects the project was deemed a failure. The true cost was in lost time and replacing thousands of boards in each server 23 times. The company had plenty of money so that was not an issue, but 8 months behind the release date they shuttered the entire Ireland engineering offices. I wonder looking over the releases of SC and lack of progress to the 6 million stretch goals have they boxed themselves into a corner. Based on Derek's and everyone that contributed to my question it seems very likely. If this is a reality concerning the crytek engine I canot image what they could do to comeback.
« Last Edit: January 02, 2018, 08:12:36 AM by jwh1701 »

dsmart

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Re: Star Citizen - The Game
« Reply #1633 on: January 02, 2018, 07:53:23 AM »
There is no coming back. That's what we mean when we say the project is FUBAR
Star Citizen isn't a game. It's a TV show about a bunch of characters making a game. It's basically "This is Spinal Tap" - except people think the band is real.

jwh1701

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Re: Star Citizen - The Game
« Reply #1634 on: January 02, 2018, 07:54:25 AM »
from https://www.robertsspaceindustries.com/comm-link/transmission/12790-4-Million-New-System-New-Ship-New-Goals




Above screenshot is part of the sc 'lore' explaining the collapse of the SynthWorld project but I think it sounds eerily similar to how another project might be described at its demise.

I love mods and a lot of my games I purchase are based on can it support mods from Nexus.  I have always wondered how can SC with the online play and enormous physics the claim to be doing support and function with player introduced mods do matter how small they maybe?

 

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