Author Topic: Star Citizen General BS  (Read 1547172 times)

dsmart

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Re: Star Citizen - The Game
« Reply #660 on: August 02, 2017, 09:35:11 AM »
Maybe you have a very selective memory or maybe you can't read very well, either way Derek predicted 60 to 90 days, I posted a picture earlier in the thread, and he said they weren't a going concern nearly 2 years ago. That's a date range and him being incredibly wrong.

A company that is no longer a going concern doesn't stay in business for 2 years and counting!

Please at least try to read what I write if you're going to argue with me.

Derek is either making stuff up to hurt a competitor, parroting BS from ill informed sources or making idiotic assumptions based off incorrect analysis or analytics.

I remember when he explained how he got involved and mentioned reading a comm link where they mentioned starting the 64 conversion and that being a red flag that got him digging because it was so much work and they were in year 3 or 4 or whatever and it would take too long to complete, when in fact, the comm link said they'd nearly finished the 64 bit conversion. Willful twisting of facts or reading comprehension failure? I'll leave it up to you to decide for yourself. It's certainly not what he said it was though.

Derek explained that 60 to 90 days was an exaggeration. He showed the whole timeline. But okay, let's take that litterally. So, yes he was wrong there. At the moment, CIG is still alive. How they managed to do so, nobody knows. It's not by delivering what they promised, that's for sure.

Now the question is, for how long can they stay alive? I think it won't be for long now. They have lied too long to their backers now. They can't produce a decent game. Alpha 3.0 will be a very disappointing gameplay, if they dare to release it at all.

It is safe to say that Derek has been right though.

- It's now August 2017. The game - as pitched - isn't here. Not even close. So, there's that.
- If the funding chart is correct, CIG has now raised 155m. The game - as pitched - isn't here. Not even close. So, there's that.

Now, will CIG be able to make the game - as pitched - even if they had unlimited funding? No, it's just not doable at the moment. Maybe in 10 or 20 years.
Does CIG have enough funding to continue for at least delivering at the bare minimum, a decent working basic game? No, probably not.
Can CIG keep on generating money to keep afloat in the same way they have done for the last couple of years? No, probably not.

Is Star Citizen as game totally FUBAR? Well, yes. It's a miracle that they lasted until now. They need to pull another couple of miracles now with the 3.0 build, Games Com and Shitizencon. Let's see if they manage that...

 :five: :five: :five:
Star Citizen isn't a game. It's a TV show about a bunch of characters making a game. It's basically "This is Spinal Tap" - except people think the band is real.

dsmart

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Re: Star Citizen - The Game
« Reply #661 on: August 02, 2017, 09:37:16 AM »
Read more: Going Concern http://www.investopedia.com/terms/g/goingconcern.asp#ixzz4oc7Twmsl
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In fact I clicked the link you provided in the blog in question, which said the same thing.

So you dug up a link, read it, but still chose to distort the meaning?

Quote
What does 'Going Concern' mean
Going concern is an accounting term for a company that has the resources needed to continue to operate indefinitely until a company provides evidence to the contrary, and this term also refers to a company's ability to make enough money to stay afloat or avoid bankruptcy. If a business is not a going concern, it means the company has gone bankrupt and its assets were liquidated. As an example, many dot-coms are no longer going concern companies after the tech bust in the late 1990s.

Now compare the above to my statement about CIG, and explain to me WHERE it implied that they were bankrupt (which would be a public filing)

"The four year, $90m+ Star Citizen video game project, is no longer a going concern. The project is FUBAR and there is no going back.""
« Last Edit: August 02, 2017, 09:39:06 AM by dsmart »
Star Citizen isn't a game. It's a TV show about a bunch of characters making a game. It's basically "This is Spinal Tap" - except people think the band is real.

BigM

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Re: Star Citizen - The Game
« Reply #662 on: August 02, 2017, 11:52:34 AM »

The only argument against this line of reasoning is that they're still in business so the funding tracker must be on the right lines otherwise how could they stay afloat all this time with an ever increasing number of employees?

Fact is, first 2 years overheads were tiny compared to today but funding was almost the same. Well over 50 million in two years, one of which they had less than 20 employees and a single office. They had tonnes of cash in reserve. Tiny Z used to be a hedge fund manager which means, I guess, he knows how to invest large chunks of cash.

Repeatedly saying they're about to run out of cash...for the last 2 years, becomes sillier and sillier as they continue to stay in business for longer and longer. They can have sales. They will deliver more game play. Money keeps coming in.

Don't you believe Derek's sources and the 220+ million in total received? Have they blown through all of that? Seriously?

Edit: From Derek's 'End game' blog from Oct 2015

"THE BEGINNING OF THE END

The four year, $90m+ Star Citizen video game project, is no longer a going concern. The project is FUBAR and there is no going back."


No longer a going concern. He thought they were bankrupt more or less two years ago. Is it time to call BS yet?

Chris might have pulled some money elsewhere. Investors, bankloans, who knows? The thing is, if you have enough money, you don't need more, but you'll probably want more. Now, if you have enough money (the 65m for the original promises), why would you keep on asking for more money for a product you can't deliver? That behaviour will only get you more and more upset, angry, complaning customers. I now have 10 angry people because I didn't deliver their car. Let's sell more cars. Yeah, brilliant strategy  :doh:

Tiny Z might have been a terrible hedge fund manager. The fact that someone claims to be/has been XYZ, doesn't mean they are/were good at it (Hi Chris, Hi Sandi  :wave: )

I don't remember Derek claiming a exact time and date that CIG would collapse. He has been going on about this project being FUBAR for quite some time now, that is true. That doesn't mean he is wrong. With everything I see, I support his views. CIG has lasted longer than he anticipated yes, because they managed to get their hands on more money than expected. But not because they are a top-notch organisation with the best management layer ever and with financial skills that are on par with the best from the best at Wall Street.

But the desparate need for money - that has no bearing whatsoever on the survival of the game (as by own admission from Chris) - is at the least very strange. I see no signs of a healthy company in their current behaviour. I see a company in distress. And with no clear way out, because admitting they have money problems will automatically be the end of them too.

If we had a way to upvote you I would. You said it better than I could ever say it. Great post!

Motto

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Re: Star Citizen - The Game
« Reply #663 on: August 02, 2017, 12:08:46 PM »
Well. I've had :five: :five: :five: three times now from Zebikbozz. So note that I do intend to go for the posting crown :c00lbert:

As Chris, I aim for the stars but always seem to end up in empty space. Probably because I'm not native in English. It's the little things in spelling and grammar that give me away. I don't understand why some think I'm Derek. He's so more eloquent :allears: (and he probably doesn't need as much editing to get all his annoying typo's and errors out of the way; I keep on finding them  :saddowns: )
« Last Edit: August 02, 2017, 12:25:21 PM by Motto »

Serendipity

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Re: Star Citizen - The Game
« Reply #664 on: August 02, 2017, 03:35:22 PM »
Read more: Going Concern http://www.investopedia.com/terms/g/goingconcern.asp#ixzz4oc7Twmsl
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In fact I clicked the link you provided in the blog in question, which said the same thing.

So you dug up a link, read it, but still chose to distort the meaning?

Quote
What does 'Going Concern' mean
Going concern is an accounting term for a company that has the resources needed to continue to operate indefinitely until a company provides evidence to the contrary, and this term also refers to a company's ability to make enough money to stay afloat or avoid bankruptcy. If a business is not a going concern, it means the company has gone bankrupt and its assets were liquidated. As an example, many dot-coms are no longer going concern companies after the tech bust in the late 1990s.

Now compare the above to my statement about CIG, and explain to me WHERE it implied that they were bankrupt (which would be a public filing)

"The four year, $90m+ Star Citizen video game project, is no longer a going concern. The project is FUBAR and there is no going back.

I'm not sure I've distorted anything. Let's do some analysis shall we.

You said: "The four year, $90m+ Star Citizen video game project, is no longer a going concern.

The link says: "If a business is not a going concern, it means the company has gone bankrupt"

Can you explain to me which part I distorted, because it looks like it's exactly the same to me. Probably because it is exactly the same.

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In June, Frankfurt Engineering deployed to the main codebase some major items that were planned for this month. As mentioned in the last monthly report, the Large World (moving the codebase to 64 bit coordinates)

So if something, (64 bit coordinates), has been 'deployed to the main codebase', I'm taking that to mean it's basically completed. They'd been working on it for years. I'm referring to an interview where I heard you saying they'd just started on the conversion. I don't have a link. Perhaps it was the open house or somewhere else. I have a good memory and I know you said it somewhere. I remember listening to you, going to check the comm link and laughing at your, (deliberate?), misunderstanding.

Either way it's still a fact they have 64 bit positioning and maps millions of km in width that can be traversed without breaks or loading screen, evidenced by the plentiful videos or just playing the game. It matters not if it's 'smoke and mirrors', (whatever that means in game dev terms, I mean, it's all illusion right?), the effect is seamlessly travelling from thousands of km away from a moon with it appearing as a couple of pixels, all the way to full blown asset and soon, to landing and exploring with no breaks, screens, menus...nothing.

They've done what the blog you linked talks about you could never do. That must hurt. I'm sorry that someone else is managing to accomplish your dream but there you go. There it is and there we are. Of course, we need 3.0 in our hands to confirm but the PC gamer journalist you questioned on twitter confirmed it, that's good enough for me.

I haven't attacked anyone, personally or otherwise, just offered opinion and analysis. Nothing personal at all.

Motto

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Re: Star Citizen - The Game
« Reply #665 on: August 02, 2017, 03:50:09 PM »
The definition for going concern from Wikipedia is:

A going concern is a business that functions without the threat of liquidation for the foreseeable future, usually regarded as at least within 12 months. It implies for the business the basic declaration of intention to keep running its activities at least for the next year, which is a basic assumption to prepare financial statements considering the conceptual framework of the IFRS. Hence, the declaration of going concern means that the entity has neither the intention nor the need to liquidate or curtail materially the scale of its operations.

So, to say a company is no longer a going concern, doesn't mean it's bankrupt, but it generally means it won't last more than the upcoming 12 months. So, if Derek said this 2 years ago, he was wrong, since CIG is still here. If, and only if, you take the statement literally. However, if you look at the statement in a somewhat broader view, you'll see the meaning as intended by Derek. As in, CIG will not be able to live up to what they pre-sold. They can't cut it and they won't make it. That narrative is quite in line with his other statements about CIG and SC. Now, I'll give you that it has taken longer than expected. However, I hereby will say that in my humble opinion, CIG no longer is a going concern. They won't last another 12 months. I don't foresee a future for CIG as a running company. Only running from the law.
« Last Edit: August 02, 2017, 04:00:14 PM by Motto »

dsmart

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Re: Star Citizen - The Game
« Reply #666 on: August 02, 2017, 03:56:54 PM »
The defination for going concern from Wikipedia is:

A going concern is a business that functions without the threat of liquidation for the foreseeable future, usually regarded as at least within 12 months. It implies for the business the basic declaration of intention to keep running its activities at least for the next year, which is a basic assumption to prepare financial statements considering the conceptual framework of the IFRS. Hence, the declaration of going concern means that the entity has neither the intention nor the need to liquidate or curtail materially the scale of its operations.

So, to say a company is no longer an going concern, doesn't mean it's bankrupt, but it generally means it won't last more than the upcoming 12 months. So, if Derek said this 2 years ago, he was wrong, since CIG is still here. If, and only if, you take the statement literally. However, if you look at the statement in a somewhat broader view, you'll see the meaning as intended by Derek. As in, CIG will not be able to live up to what they pre-sold. They can't cut it and they won't make it. That narrative is quite in line with his other statements about CIG and SC. Now, I'll give you that it has taking longer than expected. However, I hereby will say that in my humble opinion, CIG no longer is a going concern. They won't last another 12 months. I don't foresee a future for CIG as a running company. Only running from the law.

Exactly. In fact, each time I have used the "going concern" term, it has been consistent with the notion and context that "they won't make it" and NOT that "they are bankrupt". You can go to www.dereksmart.com right now and do a search for "concern" and find that my usage very consistent.
Star Citizen isn't a game. It's a TV show about a bunch of characters making a game. It's basically "This is Spinal Tap" - except people think the band is real.

Serendipity

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Re: Star Citizen - The Game
« Reply #667 on: August 02, 2017, 04:05:18 PM »
The link in the blog contained in the phrase 'going concern' took me to a link which stated not being a going concern means bankrupt. This was confirmed by another link I found on investopedia, so that's what I assumed was meant by the use of the term. If you meant they had too much technical debt to complete the project, there are phrases to use that aren't as evocative of doom.

But fair enough. You meant they won't complete the project. You stated it quite confidently when you didn't know if they can or not. You thought they couldn't. That's different. There's no way you know the future and 3.0, as confirmed by a PC gamer journalist, seems to be about to prove you wrong.

Theres no evidence of financial trouble despite your attempts at claiming so. Hiring staff. Paying wages. Having sales that make millions in a week. It's all supposition and guesswork, no doubt from your analysis that we've already discussed is horribly flawed.

No imminent collapse. Obvious and tangible progress with a reliable source reporting the truth. All we can do is wait and see. I'm looking forward to it.

Motto

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Re: Star Citizen - The Game
« Reply #668 on: August 02, 2017, 04:07:40 PM »
So, how are your tonsils looking today? That's the only reponse I can think of right now.
« Last Edit: August 02, 2017, 04:42:28 PM by Motto »

dsmart

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Re: Star Citizen - The Game
« Reply #669 on: August 02, 2017, 04:32:37 PM »
Can you explain to me which part I distorted, because it looks like it's exactly the same to me. Probably because it is exactly the same.

I'm not playing your stupid game. I HIGHLIGHTED the specific section. But go ahead and ignore it you want.

Quote
So if something, (64 bit coordinates), has been 'deployed to the main codebase', I'm taking that to mean it's basically completed. They'd been working on it for years.

No, that's not what that means.

Quote
I'm referring to an interview where I heard you saying they'd just started on the conversion. I don't have a link. Perhaps it was the open house or somewhere else. I have a good memory and I know you said it somewhere. I remember listening to you, going to check the comm link and laughing at your, (deliberate?), misunderstanding.

I have always been consistent in my alarm that they started doing that at all; and that FOUR years later, in Summer 2015, barely had it implemented. As I stated in my first blog, that was the impetus for the blog and which led to my assessment that the project was FUBAR. Had they NOT increased the game's scope, and made all these promises, THAT complex and time consuming amount of work would NOT have been necessary because the level extents supported by CryEngine, would have built the original game just fine. They could have created the entire world by connecting together all the smaller max size levels allowed by CryEngine, using the same very jump points they currently have in the Star Map. And it could still have appeared as one contiguous world, without any loading screens. Which is what most games, include Elite Dangerous, do.

Of course I was right because the PU didn't release until Dec 2015, and it was a horribly, broken, mess. Even for a pre-Alpha. And it still is, almost two years later in 2.6.3 (last patch was in April btw).

Quote
They've done what the blog you linked talks about you could never do. That must hurt. I'm sorry that someone else is managing to accomplish your dream but there you go. There it is and there we are. Of course, we need 3.0 in our hands to confirm but the PC gamer journalist you questioned on twitter confirmed it, that's good enough for me.

What in the hell are you talking about? My Interstellar Citizens blog had NOTHING to do with anything other than having a seamless experience whereby a player exists in the ENTIRE game in first person. None of the BC/UC games have FPS inside capital ships or stations. And LoD has some (FPS inside stations and a carrier) that, but as a "Combined Arms" game, not a dedicated "Space/Planetary Combat Game/Sim" like BC/UC games, it doesn't count.

And it's right there in the HOLY GRAIL section of the blog.

Quote
THE HOLY GRAIL

As I’ve said in many interviews, articles and so on, when I first set out to make these games, I had an all-encompassing vision. Being a sci-fi buff, I wanted a game in which one could travel through the stars, meet strange new people, explore, trade, fight, command your crew, and all that. All in space, and on planets, in first person infantry mode, with air, space, and vehicular combat thrown into the mix. I envisioned a mix of Elite with Star Flight, a dash of Sentinel Worlds and Hard Nova, and all the ludicrously complex machinations of the Star Fleet series.

The fact that I actually pulled off the first iteration in 1996, while most were either laughing at me, or saying how it couldn’t be done, is something that has been lost in time.

Through it all, my vision was still not complete because, even though GPU and CPU technologies were progressing at a fast pace, the game engine technologies still weren’t there. As a result, I continued to make sacrifices in order to keep moving things forward. For example, you can’t have high visual fidelity when you’re trying to build a massive game world. So I tended to sacrifice visuals for gameplay, something that was seemingly unheard of back in the day because you just get laughed at. Which is hilarious now that I think about it, when there are so many best-selling but shallow games with sub-par graphics.

The Holy Grail of immersion for me has always been for the player to be able to exist in first person (aka infantry) mode throughout the entire game world. You’d be able to walk around inside your ship. You’d be able to dock that ship with a station, exit, walk around inside that station. You’d be able to fly your ship directly into a planet, land, exit that ship, enter a building, do stuff etc.

Much like back in 1996 whereby nobody had even come close to my vision, as of this writing, nobody has come close to making that game, let alone a capital ship combat game that gives you so much control and freedom.

Except me.

And it still continues to be a technical challenge of seemingly insurmountable proportions, over twenty-five years later since I first had an idea for the game that was to become Battlecruiser 3000AD.

And the only way that anyone is ever going to be able to make that game is if they built technologies specifically designed for it, and they have the deep financial pockets to do it with. And after that, it has to be compelling enough for gamers to want to upgrade their rig in order to play it. Unless you’re releasing the next Elder Scrolls, Call Of Duty, Battlefield, GTA or similar, good luck with getting modern-day gamers to bother upgrading to play your game without sufficient evidence of what makes your game so special.

Fact is, these all-encompassing games are exceptionally difficult to make. You can safely take that from someone who has spent over two decades making them. And even if you do manage to get the money to do it, and even manage to pull it off, the genre itself pretty much guarantees that the race to profit is fraught with agony, strife, frustration, and pain.

And so far Star Citizen hasn't even done it because, unlike LoD, they're still struggling to get a moon or planetoid working, let alone the massive scale planets and moons in BC/UC, or the detailed planetary bases in LoD.

Are you aware that the ENTIRE Star Citizen "world" is but a postage stamp, compared to the contiguous world featured in Battlecruiser/Universal Combat games? Yes, yes, of course you are, but go ahead and ignore it if you want.
« Last Edit: August 02, 2017, 05:31:42 PM by dsmart »
Star Citizen isn't a game. It's a TV show about a bunch of characters making a game. It's basically "This is Spinal Tap" - except people think the band is real.

ecg

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Re: Star Citizen - The Game
« Reply #670 on: August 02, 2017, 06:26:58 PM »
Been lurking here for a while, but finally had to register  just to let both DS and Serendipity how extremely entertaining this joust has been. It's pretty clear neither side is ever going to convince the other.
I am an old time gamer (54) so I have played quite a few games over the years. Wing Commander, Freelancer even BattleCruiser 3000. I am a systems admin with a little dev (just enough to get into trouble). I joined the SC KS in Oct 2012. Was in for about 230$. The biggest red flag for myself was when they announced they were using CRYengine.
Why? Its been pretty obvious since, that was their first mistake. Trying to re-code this engine to fit CR's dream has obviously been problematic and seems to be the cause of many of the delays. There have been many other red flags but you guys have covered them pretty well.  The games has also changed too much for my tastes - I am a sim guy and pretty much hate FPS/PVP. That's why earlier this year I got out. RSI refunded my full amount without hassle and even left my account intact. If a game is ever delivered I will revisit.

My gut feeling and that all it is, is they are in trouble due to CRYengine. It is just requiring too much time and effort to modify it to fit the demands. They would have been better off scrapping it  and developing an in house engine.
But it is too late for that.

Thanks for listening. Carry on.

dsmart

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Re: Star Citizen - The Game
« Reply #671 on: August 02, 2017, 07:00:00 PM »
Been lurking here for a while, but finally had to register  just to let both DS and Serendipity how extremely entertaining this joust has been. It's pretty clear neither side is ever going to convince the other.
I am an old time gamer (54) so I have played quite a few games over the years. Wing Commander, Freelancer even BattleCruiser 3000. I am a systems admin with a little dev (just enough to get into trouble). I joined the SC KS in Oct 2012. Was in for about 230$. The biggest red flag for myself was when they announced they were using CRYengine.
Why? Its been pretty obvious since, that was their first mistake. Trying to re-code this engine to fit CR's dream has obviously been problematic and seems to be the cause of many of the delays. There have been many other red flags but you guys have covered them pretty well.  The games has also changed too much for my tastes - I am a sim guy and pretty much hate FPS/PVP. That's why earlier this year I got out. RSI refunded my full amount without hassle and even left my account intact. If a game is ever delivered I will revisit.

My gut feeling and that all it is, is they are in trouble due to CRYengine. It is just requiring too much time and effort to modify it to fit the demands. They would have been better off scrapping it  and developing an in house engine.
But it is too late for that.

Thanks for listening. Carry on.

Welcome. You're not alone in your thoughts.

The thing that most backers fail to realize is that they are never - ever - going to be able to build the game Chris envisioned and promised, with that engine. And unfortunately, back when they should have switched to a custom engine built from scratch, or even switched to UE4 which would give them the same or better visuals, and none of the aggro of CryEngine, they were busy making bullshot videos and images. In all that time, and even at $50M raised, they could have made the switch. But no, that was too easy - and sensible. So, a little over FIVE years + $125M later, they switched to a different branch (LumberYard) or the same restrictive engine they keep cobbling together.

The worst of it is that when this whole thing collapses, the game will be useless since it has no offline mode or peer-to-peer connectivity mode.
Star Citizen isn't a game. It's a TV show about a bunch of characters making a game. It's basically "This is Spinal Tap" - except people think the band is real.

Motto

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Re: Star Citizen - The Game
« Reply #672 on: August 02, 2017, 07:10:35 PM »
But it'll give so much back. The biggest crowdfunded failure ever for one. And the ultimate of course, you know, the Derek Smart was right thing  :smuggo:

Serendipity

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Re: Star Citizen - The Game
« Reply #673 on: August 02, 2017, 11:08:03 PM »
What the hell am I talking about? This:

Through it all, my vision was still not complete because, even though GPU and CPU technologies were progressing at a fast pace, the game engine technologies still weren’t there. As a result, I continued to make sacrifices in order to keep moving things forward. For example, you can’t have high visual fidelity when you’re trying to build a massive game world. So I tended to sacrifice visuals for gameplay, something that was seemingly unheard of back in the day because you just get laughed at. Which is hilarious now that I think about it, when there are so many best-selling but shallow games with sub-par graphics. 

Should 3.0 deliver what they say it will, and the PC gamer journalist you spoke to on twitter says they have, then it seems to me CIG have achieved exactly what you suggest can't be done, your 'holy grail', what you have not managed to do. A seamless, huge world with incredible visuals.

GaryII

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Re: Star Citizen - The Game
« Reply #674 on: August 03, 2017, 04:28:00 AM »
Should 3.0 deliver what they say it will, and the PC gamer journalist you spoke to on twitter says they have, then it seems to me CIG have achieved exactly what you suggest can't be done, your 'holy grail', what you have not managed to do. A seamless, huge world with incredible visuals.

 Unfortunately in year 2017 you can not believe game journalists almost all of them are sellouts :(
 What he played probably was very controlled experience, if I understand correctly fps was no more then 30...I believe one of SC youtube Yes-man reported that...   

 v3.0 is still not out and probably delayed till September...so we can not see how huge is their "huge world" in v3.0...and what is "seamless" by SC definition...

 Do not believe everything that they say in ATVs, I am listening that crap from year 2013 - too much marketing (lies, dreamcrafing) there..

 If you are new to SC, then I can understand your enthusiasm about game, but old backers are not that excited anymore...too many broken promises...
 


     
 

 

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