Author Topic: Star Citizen General BS  (Read 506022 times)

Serendipity

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Re: Star Citizen - The Game
« Reply #435 on: July 21, 2017, 02:35:10 AM »
They need sales, this is nothing new and neither are ground vehicles. Ursa, hangar buggy, dragonfly etc. When they release 3.0, whenever that may be, backers will have a few things to move around these uniquely huge cryengine assets with. Of course it's going to excite some. The funding tracker tells us to the tune of a quarter million dollars in a day. That's a decent level of interest still.

As long as they can get money for concepts then there is hope the technology will catch up with the plans. More time to do the 'impossible'. I mean, just because it hasn't been done yet, doesn't mean it can't be done. If the funding doesn't dry up and they keep plugging away at it they're bound to get something worthwhile in the end.

Moving from a moon to a planet when you've gone from maximum map size of 10km X 10km to millions X millions doesn't sound like a tough ask. Once they have moons I doubt planets will be far behind.

The gamescom presentation will be vital to the funding. Create more buzz and the company keeps on keeping on. Get moons out to backers and there will be much rejoicing and wallet opening.

This project isn't finished yet, no where near.

Motto

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Re: Star Citizen - The Game
« Reply #436 on: July 21, 2017, 02:54:49 AM »
This project isn't finished yet, no where near.
Even better, this project will never be finished  :smuggo:

helimoth

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Re: Star Citizen - The Game
« Reply #437 on: July 21, 2017, 03:05:31 AM »
How sure can you be about them having zero percent probability of achieving something they say they can, and have, achieved, when you don't have access to their cryengine base code?

That's an easy one to answer; you can just judge by their current progress. Obviously if they had an unlimited pot of money and unlimited time they could probably make any game they wanted - in that sense it's not an impossibility. When you look that so far they have a tiny % of the game they want to make and already have burned their way through many millions (depending on how you estimate their spending to date) you can begin to see that there's no way they finish the game in the way they have described. The only thing holding this whole house of cards from crumbling down is a thin veneer of glue known as the jesus patch - the promise that they are just 1 patch away from fixing all the huge problems with the game and allowing a very quick, streamlined addition of content all the way to full alpha and beyond.

Serendipity

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Re: Star Citizen - The Game
« Reply #438 on: July 21, 2017, 05:17:49 AM »
How sure can you be about them having zero percent probability of achieving something they say they can, and have, achieved, when you don't have access to their cryengine base code?

That's an easy one to answer; you can just judge by their current progress. Obviously if they had an unlimited pot of money and unlimited time they could probably make any game they wanted - in that sense it's not an impossibility. When you look that so far they have a tiny % of the game they want to make and already have burned their way through many millions (depending on how you estimate their spending to date) you can begin to see that there's no way they finish the game in the way they have described. The only thing holding this whole house of cards from crumbling down is a thin veneer of glue known as the jesus patch - the promise that they are just 1 patch away from fixing all the huge problems with the game and allowing a very quick, streamlined addition of content all the way to full alpha and beyond.

That's silly. Just because it hasn't been done yet doesn't mean it won't be done. They talk about their new systems coming online which, if true, might well allow a lot of the touted features to be possible.

Some said 2.0 was impossible yet it got done. A single cryengine map, millions of square kilometres in size. If you'd just looked at arena commander you may have made the same conclusion. 2.0 can't be done, AC is only 10 X 10km or so, no way they can make a map millions of kilometres a side...

Recent sales have proved they can raise money as and when they want so it's not dieing anytime soon. With time and more money who knows what will be become possible.

dsmart

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Re: Star Citizen - The Game
« Reply #439 on: July 21, 2017, 05:19:17 AM »
They need sales, this is nothing new and neither are ground vehicles. Ursa, hangar buggy, dragonfly etc. When they release 3.0, whenever that may be, backers will have a few things to move around these uniquely huge cryengine assets with. Of course it's going to excite some. The funding tracker tells us to the tune of a quarter million dollars in a day. That's a decent level of interest still.

As long as they can get money for concepts then there is hope the technology will catch up with the plans. More time to do the 'impossible'. I mean, just because it hasn't been done yet, doesn't mean it can't be done. If the funding doesn't dry up and they keep plugging away at it they're bound to get something worthwhile in the end.

Moving from a moon to a planet when you've gone from maximum map size of 10km X 10km to millions X millions doesn't sound like a tough ask. Once they have moons I doubt planets will be far behind.

The gamescom presentation will be vital to the funding. Create more buzz and the company keeps on keeping on. Get moons out to backers and there will be much rejoicing and wallet opening.

This project isn't finished yet, no where near.

If only that were true. They are not making enough monthly income to sustain all the studios. This is not hyperbole, it's an actual fact now, going from what we have seen of the financials. As long as they are making less than $3M per month, they just can't continue forever without scaling down the team. And never in the history of the industry, has throwing money at a bad project, resulted in a good project. And the issue with these two projects is more about the promises made, than about what kind of games will come out at the end.

The surface area of the planet/moon is irrelevant. It's all about performance, practicality, and what to do and put on the surface. ED has a far more superior engine and game, yet they don't have planets. They have moons and planetoids with specific POIs. In SC, the reason they are doing moons and planetoids is specifically because of the scale and performance issues. Big for the sake of big, doesn't make it a game if it's pointless. In these games, the reason you would want a large surface area, is about aircraft. An aircraft flying at 350 m/s in space, isn't going to travel that fast on the planet without running out of space.

As to the moon vs planet vs planetoid issue, this is an excerpt from what I wrote yesterday:

"I remember when planets were coming. Then we found out they were moons (Yela and Cellin) – of course because they are smaller, and easier to handle and build, than full blown planets.

Then, after promising the Stanton system back in 2016, they are now saying that they’re going to be moving (LOL!!) Delamar from Nyx to Stanton. You know why? Because they can’t do planets, or they would be building the Crusader planet, which is in Stanton already. Instead, since Delamar (within the Glaciem ring/belt in Nyx) is just a large asteroid the size of a small planet (hence planetoid), they are moving it to Stanton.

If they can move Delamar, they could very well have changed Crusader from a gas giant to a regular planet, built that, and left Delamar where it is. But that would mean having to build an actual planet which would require a larger surface area, more terrain assets, POIs etc. The problem with creating surface area in these games is that when you have air/space craft which can travel up to 350 m/s in space, due to the expanse, on a planet they will quickly run out of space to fly.

And Delamar, which has the Levksi landing zone, may not even be in 3.0 when it first launches.

===

It's worse than that.

Nyx is an entirely different star system which they haven't built. So leaving Delamar where it is, would have meant building the Nyx star system, when in fact they only have Stanton (15% built, if you counted all the elements in the Star map, compared to what's in the current game client), and having to deal with player transitions from one system to another. So they just said, fuck it, we'll just move it.
"

It doesn't matter how much money they have, or how long they keep at this, it's never going to amount to the game they pitched. Back in July 2015 when they had $85M, I said they needed at least $150M, the right tech, and experienced people to build Star Citizen. They crossed that financial milestone back in May 2017 - and they are still not even 15% of the way there. Now, assuming the GameStar article is accurate, they are talking about 5 - 10 systems at "launch". So do the math.

That's an easy one to answer; you can just judge by their current progress. Obviously if they had an unlimited pot of money and unlimited time they could probably make any game they wanted - in that sense it's not an impossibility. When you look that so far they have a tiny % of the game they want to make and already have burned their way through many millions (depending on how you estimate their spending to date) you can begin to see that there's no way they finish the game in the way they have described. The only thing holding this whole house of cards from crumbling down is a thin veneer of glue known as the jesus patch - the promise that they are just 1 patch away from fixing all the huge problems with the game and allowing a very quick, streamlined addition of content all the way to full alpha and beyond.

It's not even the Jesus Patch that's holding it together. It's the real backers, and those engaged in money laundering, who are propping it up financially. Without some money coming in, investment and loans aside, the whole thing falls apart. And that's the thing with Ponzi schemes, no matter how long you run them for, it's only going to take one event to topple it.

That's silly. Just because it hasn't been done yet doesn't mean it won't be done. They talk about their new systems coming online which, if true, might well allow a lot of the touted features to be possible.

Some said 2.0 was impossible yet it got done. A single cryengine map, millions of square kilometres in size. If you'd just looked at arena commander you may have made the same conclusion. 2.0 can't be done, AC is only 10 X 10km or so, no way they can make a map millions of kilometres a side...

Recent sales have proved they can raise money as and when they want so it's not dieing anytime soon. With time and more money who knows what will be become possible.

That's a silly argument to make. Nobody is saying that it can't be done because it hasn't been done before. The narrative, at least from my perspective, is that it can't be done because the game pitched faces insurmountable obstacles in terms of tech, talent, and money. So far, this continues to be fact, as evidenced by the amount of money they've thrown at it, how long it's taken, and the fact that even 3 years overdue, still isn't even 15% of the way there.

Nobody ever said 2.0 was impossible. Please go ahead and cite some sources where you saw this. Like Arena Commander, Star Marine etc there is nothing in 2.0 that would have been impossible because it doesn't contain anything that hasn't been done before, nor revolutionary. And the map size in 2.0 has nothing to do with it not being possible to do. It's just a map extent increase which they hacked in support for; and I've written extensively about this already.

And raising money has no correlation to success if they have insurmountable challenges to face. And those challenges stem from the game they pitched. There are many million and billion Dollar companies that fail - every day - wiping away years of work and investor money. I'm sure they too thought they would make it if they just kept getting money.

Speaking of performance issues, this is from yesterday's AtV. Ignoring that it's running in the editor, this is with NO game clients and NO gameplay features in the scene. Only rendering. And THAT'S the problem they are facing, and which I have been writing about since I got wind of it.

« Last Edit: July 21, 2017, 06:47:04 AM by dsmart »
Star Citizen isn't a game. It's a TV show about a bunch of characters making a game. It's basically "This is Spinal Tap" - except people think the band is real.

Serendipity

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Re: Star Citizen - The Game
« Reply #440 on: July 21, 2017, 07:55:22 AM »
It would be nice if you could at least try to be objective Derek. Nobody has made a cryengine map bigger than a few kilometres square before. CIG converted to 64 bit positional coordinates and produced a cryengine map millions of km across that you can travel seamlessly. To suggest that's been done before is either willful ignorance or a straight up lie.

On the finances you've answered your own questions. If they were running out of money they would be cutting staff left and right wouldn't they? Stories of non payment of wages leaking out etc. Instead they're growing the studios. I've heard that they're running out of money for a couple of years now...and here we are, still a going concern, still developing.

They're moving landing zones in the alpha because intra system travel isn't coming for quite some time yet but the landing zones have been worked on for a while. They'll be moved back to their rightful positions once they have different systems to travel to.

The FPS counter visible in some development videos means nothing. At all. I'm sure you know that. No context. No value.

It impossible that everything they do is incompetant, fabrication or plagiarised, yet some around the web will try to tell me it is so. I just don't buy it. Troubled they may be but a product is coming. What type of product is the interesting bit.

Motto

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Re: Star Citizen - The Game
« Reply #441 on: July 21, 2017, 08:55:09 AM »
The problems and rumors that come with financial troubles normally appear when there are no further rescue means available. The moment CIG has to make clear that they're in financial trouble is the moment that the project collapses. You can't burn thru almost 200 mil. and then expect someone to keep funding you so you can continue because you ran out of money.

There is so much wrong with this project that even a blind and deaf man can read and hear that this game is never going to be finished/released. I'd suggest you start repeating the words "Derek Smart was right" on a regular basis. I don't know how to define regular for you, but I'd do it enough to be able to say them without problems in a couple of months  :D

Meowz

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Re: Star Citizen - The Game
« Reply #442 on: July 21, 2017, 09:17:59 AM »
It would be nice if you could at least try to be objective Derek. Nobody has made a cryengine map bigger than a few kilometres square before. CIG converted to 64 bit positional coordinates and produced a cryengine map millions of km across that you can travel seamlessly. To suggest that's been done before is either willful ignorance or a straight up lie.

On the finances you've answered your own questions. If they were running out of money they would be cutting staff left and right wouldn't they? Stories of non payment of wages leaking out etc. Instead they're growing the studios. I've heard that they're running out of money for a couple of years now...and here we are, still a going concern, still developing.

They're moving landing zones in the alpha because intra system travel isn't coming for quite some time yet but the landing zones have been worked on for a while. They'll be moved back to their rightful positions once they have different systems to travel to.

The FPS counter visible in some development videos means nothing. At all. I'm sure you know that. No context. No value.

It impossible that everything they do is incompetant, fabrication or plagiarised, yet some around the web will try to tell me it is so. I just don't buy it. Troubled they may be but a product is coming. What type of product is the interesting bit.

A big problem here and the Refunds Reddit is those at odds against CIG are also at odds with themselves. I don't think anyone here TRULY wants SC to fail. Even DS often states that he would love to play SC as it was pitched because, after all, we are all old space sim fans so why wouldn't he want to play an impressive and fun game? However on the other end people get so emotionally attached that when they finally get fed up they also want to see CIG fail, for the exact reasons IDK but I hypothesize its due to some sense of justice over CR's mismanagement and frequent dishonesty (more likely blatant lying about what they can do, and the status of the project/company) to the public. Basically they feel like they've been taken for a ride and advantage of so to see CIG collapse would be poetic justice and for a few CR is little more than a conman at this point.

DS is the only person I can think of that has any right to a personal grievance with CR and CIG since they have personally and publicly attacked him and his projects, as well as cultivated the anti-DS cult which is beyond bazaar. The rest of us are very much at odds, sadly if CIG does tank and SC fails as a fun game with lots of repayable content everyone loses. The CIG staff who are innocent in the matter lose their job, we lose the game we dreamed for, we all lose.

Narrenbart

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Re: Star Citizen - The Game
« Reply #443 on: July 21, 2017, 10:09:43 AM »
[...] The CIG staff who are innocent in the matter lose their job, we lose the game we dreamed for, we all lose.
Except the Roberts Clan they've won, millions of backers money for a wealthy future.

Scruffpuff

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Re: Star Citizen - The Game
« Reply #444 on: July 21, 2017, 11:36:55 AM »
The laser-focus on whether or not something is "possible" smacks of desperation.



Lots of things are possible - there are people out there breaking the boundaries of what we think possible every day.  Chris Roberts is the opposite of those people.

dsmart

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Re: Star Citizen - The Game
« Reply #445 on: July 21, 2017, 05:03:51 PM »
It would be nice if you could at least try to be objective Derek. Nobody has made a cryengine map bigger than a few kilometres square before. CIG converted to 64 bit positional coordinates and produced a cryengine map millions of km across that you can travel seamlessly. To suggest that's been done before is either willful ignorance or a straight up lie.

I have no idea what you are going on about. My "it hasn't been done before" was about the game features and scope. You are talking about some engine modification. The two are mutually exclusive. Heck, I wrote an entire paragraph on exactly what I was talking about. Why would I even say that expanding the size of a CryEngine map hasn't been done before, when in fact an MMO game did just that; though not to the extent that Star Citizen did.

And you're talking about CryEngine - which nobody cares about. My BC/UC games, Dual Universe, Infinity Battlespace, Elite Dangerous etc, all have massive worlds. Star Citizen is just playing catch-up, regardless of what engine they used to do it.

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On the finances you've answered your own questions. If they were running out of money they would be cutting staff left and right wouldn't they? Stories of non payment of wages leaking out etc. Instead they're growing the studios. I've heard that they're running out of money for a couple of years now...and here we are, still a going concern, still developing.

That's false.

1) people ARE leaving.

2) the studio sizes HAVE been decreasing this year

3) there won't be storied of non-payment if they are still making payroll

The ONLY reason the project is still afloat is because you guys keep propping it up. Nothing wrong with that, it's your money. But don't pretend as if this project would still be a going concern if they were still relying on $45 game sales, instead of concept ships and other shenanigans to raise money. It would be over by now. That's why they keep doing those sales.

In the history of the industry, you only ever start hearing horror stories usually after the fact.

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They're moving landing zones in the alpha because intra system travel isn't coming for quite some time yet but the landing zones have been worked on for a while. They'll be moved back to their rightful positions once they have different systems to travel to.

We know this. I wrote about it. And the reason for that is because they would rather be milking Stanton which has pre-existing content, than building another system (e.g. Nyx) to support intra-system travel. As I mentioned above, if they could do entire planets, they would have temporarily made Crusader a regular planet, instead of having to move Delamar, a planetoid, from Nyx to Stanton. THAT tells me that 1) they are having technical issues with intra-system travel due to the scope and code needed to do it 2) building Nyx would take resources away from Stanton - which they are currently using as a proof-of-concept to raise money.

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The FPS counter visible in some development videos means nothing. At all. I'm sure you know that. No context. No value.

That's false.

The FPS counter means something because, in a level, it allows the artists to determine how well and optimized the level is. They have to account for gameplay and client additions later. That's how it works. And that's why the FPS counter is important.

It is a benchmark tool which also prevents the artist/modeler from going overboard with assets in the scene.

We ran into the same issues with Line Of Defense whereby, using the FPS counter, the team that builds our scenes, had to cut back on a lot of things, include terrain mesh, polygon reduction in some assets (e.g. buildings). And even though the game is content complete, the performance is still undergoing review from time to time in order to streamline the scenes.

In fact, our Gulge scene is the most complex and doesn't run as smooth as Heatwave or the other two (Frostbite, Nightbridge) scenes, which are also complex and huge.

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It impossible that everything they do is incompetant, fabrication or plagiarised, yet some around the web will try to tell me it is so. I just don't buy it. Troubled they may be but a product is coming. What type of product is the interesting bit.

Nobody is implying any of that, and you shouldn't be paying attention to that nonsense. Not everything about the project is a rubbish. It has a LOT of good parts, mostly in terms of visual fidelity, and some gameplay aspects. Technology wise, they're not breaking any new ground. At the end of the day, the gameplay - not the tech - is what will make or break the game.
Star Citizen isn't a game. It's a TV show about a bunch of characters making a game. It's basically "This is Spinal Tap" - except people think the band is real.

dsmart

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Re: Star Citizen - The Game
« Reply #446 on: July 21, 2017, 05:07:15 PM »
The problems and rumors that come with financial troubles normally appear when there are no further rescue means available. The moment CIG has to make clear that they're in financial trouble is the moment that the project collapses. You can't burn thru almost 200 mil. and then expect someone to keep funding you so you can continue because you ran out of money.

There is so much wrong with this project that even a blind and deaf man can read and hear that this game is never going to be finished/released. I'd suggest you start repeating the words "Derek Smart was right" on a regular basis. I don't know how to define regular for you, but I'd do it enough to be able to say them without problems in a couple of months  :D

Yes indeed. And that's how Ponzi schemes fail. All it takes is one. In the case of CIG, they are trying to give the illusion of healthy finances. We know the funding tracker to be bullshit (aside from the fact that it doesn't track subscriptions or refunds). And the UK loan is also bullshit. We don't know how financially stretched they are here in the US, as those numbers are not public - yet.

If a group of backers weren't still giving them money, this thing would have been all over by now. They know this. Which is why, the last two years, they've been using lies, and bullshot images and videos to give the illusion of progress.

I don't care what anyone says or believes, it's going to collapse.
Star Citizen isn't a game. It's a TV show about a bunch of characters making a game. It's basically "This is Spinal Tap" - except people think the band is real.

dsmart

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Re: Star Citizen - The Game
« Reply #447 on: July 21, 2017, 05:14:11 PM »
A big problem here and the Refunds Reddit is those at odds against CIG are also at odds with themselves. I don't think anyone here TRULY wants SC to fail. Even DS often states that he would love to play SC as it was pitched because, after all, we are all old space sim fans so why wouldn't he want to play an impressive and fun game?

Exactly. A lot of people keep forgetting that I was one of the ORIGINAL backers. Until I dared to question the project. And like what they do to other dissenting backers, they kicked me out. But not only that, they lied about their reasons to the media. Then took actions that ended up starting a massive war with their toxic backers.

And because I am 100% certain that I am right (as has been proven time and time again) about the insurmountable odds of developing the game, my end goal is more about vindication, than it is about my desire to see the project fail.

Even if they do somehow stick around for the next 2-3 years to "launch" the game with 5 - 10 systems, and SQ42, I would still play it. That won't change my quest for vindication, which, when you think about it, they already proved by scaling down the game since July 2015 when I said they couldn't build it as pitched.

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DS is the only person I can think of that has any right to a personal grievance with CR and CIG since they have personally and publicly attacked him and his projects, as well as cultivated the anti-DS cult which is beyond bazaar. The rest of us are very much at odds, sadly if CIG does tank and SC fails as a fun game with lots of repayable content everyone loses. The CIG staff who are innocent in the matter lose their job, we lose the game we dreamed for, we all lose.

Exactly. The trolling side of me wants it to collapse with a total loss of backer money, so that I can grief and laugh at those who have been attacking me for going on two years straight. The sensible backers, who I have more concern for, are the ones who have either refunded, or have very little invested in the game.
Star Citizen isn't a game. It's a TV show about a bunch of characters making a game. It's basically "This is Spinal Tap" - except people think the band is real.

dsmart

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Re: Star Citizen - The Game
« Reply #448 on: July 21, 2017, 05:15:42 PM »
The laser-focus on whether or not something is "possible" smacks of desperation.



Lots of things are possible - there are people out there breaking the boundaries of what we think possible every day.  Chris Roberts is the opposite of those people.

LOL!! Indeed. That's the part that I simply don't understand. Chris have proven - publicly - that the project as pitched CANNOT be made. Yet, there are those who are somehow trumpeting this nonsense that because everything is possible, so to is this project. It's amazing.
Star Citizen isn't a game. It's a TV show about a bunch of characters making a game. It's basically "This is Spinal Tap" - except people think the band is real.

dsmart

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Re: Star Citizen - The Game
« Reply #449 on: July 21, 2017, 05:44:35 PM »
Here we go again. It's like 2015 all over again

"First man on the moon: hands-on with Star Citizen Alpha 3.0"

At least they confirmed "seamless transition from space to planet". Now we wait to see if that's what they deliver or not.

The way he describes this part isn't very clear.

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As promised, it was a seamless transition: taking off from the space station, flying into space, making a quantum jump to the Daymar, entering the atmosphere, and landing.

I would like to know more about that part specifically.

1) Is it like Elite Dangerous where you can fly directly into the planet without using frameshift? Same as in Battlespace Infinity.

2) Is it like Universal Combat where you fly directly into the planet, then when you breach the planet's gravitational pull you enter the atmosphere?

3) Is it like Line Of Defense where you fly to the planet in space, select a base to drop into via a menu, then you are transitioned from space to the atmosphere?

What if "making a quantum jump to Daymar" means jumping into the planet's atmosphere from space? Hence a concealed load screen transition from space to planet?

I am more interested in his seamless statement. Also, as he was no doubt running a local LAN build, his performance and experience would definitely be better than a live online session.

https://twitter.com/screencuisine/status/888635298833285120

https://twitter.com/screencuisine/status/888580814635622400

UPDATE: Print copy

In case you were wondering. There isn't a SINGLE image from the ACTUAL GAME in this article.







« Last Edit: August 25, 2017, 04:20:47 AM by dsmart »
Star Citizen isn't a game. It's a TV show about a bunch of characters making a game. It's basically "This is Spinal Tap" - except people think the band is real.

 

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