Author Topic: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.  (Read 660340 times)

Kyrt

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Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
« Reply #225 on: December 21, 2016, 10:36:26 AM »
I wish all the backers had your reasoned approach to viewing the project.  I suppose if they did it wouldn't be quite as entertaining a circus, but then again, they also wouldn't have all this money floating around either.  Even if their custom tools open the way forward so to speak, I can't see them sustaining this level for much longer.  If anything at all gets released, I suspect it will bear little resemblance to anything they, or we, have envisioned.

Oh - I'm not a backer. But even if I were....for this type of project, I NEVER EVER donate more than I can afford to lose. I "write the money off" as soon as it is gone. I might think the project is worth supporting...but I ain't dumb enough to think delivery is guaranteed.

My financial support for this project is limited to "I'll buy the game, six months after its released when the hype has died down and I have an idea of how good it is - and then, only IF it is in fact good".

The point I am making is that while I don't buy CIGs story as fully representative of their situation, I don't necessarily believe Derek Smarts version as entirely representative either. Either ones versions could be the full truth, or either could be telling us a story that turns out to be only partially true.

Regardless of what Derek Smart and others say, I do not believe that Chris Roberts and CIG are out to scam anyone. I think they really are trying to make a game that matches their vision. I think that...given enough time and money...that they can achieve that goal.

But - I think they are perhaps a tad out of their depth in what they are trying to do. With all due respect to Roberts assertion that he can make a greater profit from one fifth the sales of other AAA titles, profits only come along AFTER the game is released. The money he is getting now SHOULD be going towards what was promised...development of the game.

Does that mean I am going to get hot and bothered over designer handbags? Being blunt? No. Workers get paid and what they do with their pay is their own business.
Now - if there was deliberate fraud or embezzlement, that would be a problem.
Has there been wastage? I'd say so...but I can't say to what degree. If the estimates I've seen are accurate, CIG should have spent no more than $80 million to date. Anything over that could be dubbed "wasted"...but it would be impossible to say whether it was wasted through inexperience or "throwing money away" without a full accounting.
Do I care that CIG has shown so little progress to date? Not particularly. I ain't a backer and if the backers are prepared to wait, that is their right. I am curious about why they have shown so little progress, but the yarn about developing tools and reworking the engine seems credible - at least to a degree. I cannot however judge if such work was necessary, what benefit such work might bring or if better options were available. As I said before, my own feeling is that if the resources had grown to the point where Chris Roberts felt comfortable about expanding the scope of the game to the extent that he did, then he should have felt comfortable ditching CE3 and building a custom engine to hold his vision. There might be practical or financial reasons why this wasn't doable...but given the money and time he has spent reworking CE3, it seems foolish not to do so.

At the end, I think that CIG - assuming they aren't lying - are fully capable of eventually delivering unto us the game that has been described. But it will be years behind schedule (it already is) and there is no guarantee that the game will be "fun" even if it meets Roberts vision. He seems more interested in developing a "Life Simulator" rather than a game - and life can be boring. Realism is all very well, but it has diminishing returns in a gaming environment.

Three years of further development seems a reasonable estimate based on the assumption that their toolkit is working, even if it needs refining. 2.6 is out....3.0 by March - June. 4.0 by mid 2018...and then, if all goes well, they'll be in a position to only need to add content rather than mechanics. Mostly. Which leaves them placed for a late 2019 release.

Or earlier if they remove content. Chris Roberts touted MVP release for example. Or later if they have even more issues.

But all this depends on them able to fund that development time. Do they have a buffer? They should...unless they were stupidly profligate with their money. Which is possible. And if they were, that leaves them vulnerable to the backers.

But that's where the problems lie. **IF** CIG really were a few days away from publish the S42 VS, then they should have finished it. That so what the backers want. Some indication of concrete progress. That Chris Roberts saw fit to scrap it has led many to think that it was nowhere near ready to be shown. That it would have taken a lot longer than "a few days" to make it work. So either this was a monumentally stupid decision for Chris Roberts to make...to scrap the VS and tick off the backers to save a few days work when weeks had already gone into the demo - or <ahem> "Derek Smart was right" and the demo was nowhere near ready.

Neither option is good. At best, this illustrates poor communication from CIG. They failed to manage expectations, hyped the backers so they would continue to fund the development, and then let them down and made them doubt CIGs truthfulness.

So - do I think this game will be released? I think there is a good chance.
Do I think it certain? Not by a long shot.

I think what we will get is a MVP with extra features, systems and ships added as DLC.

Which is what CIG should have designed development to be in the first place.

As it is, I am still hopeful the game will be released as promised. I think it can be done...but I think that CIG need to manage their marketing a whole better than they have recently. CIG are looking at 8 years of development and $200 million of funding if this game releases in late 2019. That should be enough to develop any game - OK, DNF took longer.  But I can't really see the backers holding out much past another three years. I suspect their funding has already peaked.



dsmart

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Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
« Reply #226 on: December 22, 2016, 07:34:25 AM »
The point I am making is that while I don't buy CIGs story as fully representative of their situation, I don't necessarily believe Derek Smarts version as entirely representative either. Either ones versions could be the full truth, or either could be telling us a story that turns out to be only partially true.

OK, I'll bite, which part of my "vision" do you believe to be questionable? The part where i) I said that the game - as pitched - will never be completed; the part where ii) I said they were actively now running as scam; or the part where iii) I said that they've run out of money to complete the project? Those, in fact, are the only relevant takeaway from everything I've written, because it all borders on those three things.

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Regardless of what Derek Smart and others say, I do not believe that Chris Roberts and CIG are out to scam anyone. I think they really are trying to make a game that matches their vision. I think that...given enough time and money...that they can achieve that goal.

Again, you're misinformed. I have always maintained (it's in most of my blogs, musings etc) that I don't believe that he set out to scam anyone. Heck, I just stated the same thing on Twitter mere days ago. The whole thing devolved into a scam once it became clear that the project was going to take long, thus increasing the risk of collapse while running out of money. Hence the reason that all the desperate sales tactics only started happening this year and continues.

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But that's where the problems lie. **IF** CIG really were a few days away from publish the S42 VS, then they should have finished it. That so what the backers want. Some indication of concrete progress. That Chris Roberts saw fit to scrap it has led many to think that it was nowhere near ready to be shown. That it would have taken a lot longer than "a few days" to make it work. So either this was a monumentally stupid decision for Chris Roberts to make...to scrap the VS and tick off the backers to save a few days work when weeks had already gone into the demo - or <ahem> "Derek Smart was right" and the demo was nowhere near ready.

The only reasonable or plausible answer is that I'm right. No demo, let alone a vertical slice, exists. You know, they spent so much time doing ship trailers - since that's what brings in money - yet, they somehow can't make a SQ42 trailer. Not to mention the Vanduul ship trailer they just aired during the holiday stream. How is that normal?
« Last Edit: December 22, 2016, 07:37:18 AM by dsmart »
Star Citizen isn't a game. It's a TV show about a bunch of characters making a game. It's basically "This is Spinal Tap" - except people think the band is real.

dsmart

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Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
« Reply #227 on: December 30, 2016, 05:13:25 AM »
Star Citizen isn't a game. It's a TV show about a bunch of characters making a game. It's basically "This is Spinal Tap" - except people think the band is real.

Kyrt

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Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
« Reply #228 on: December 31, 2016, 04:43:21 PM »
OK, I'll bite, which part of my "vision" do you believe to be questionable? The part where i) I said that the game - as pitched - will never be completed; the part where ii) I said they were actively now running as scam; or the part where iii) I said that they've run out of money to complete the project? Those, in fact, are the only relevant takeaway from everything I've written, because it all borders on those three things.

Will the game be released as they originally pitched? No - it won't. And they've admitted that. I don't see why you have to keep harping on about it. Would it have been better if they'd resisted feature creep, if they'd released the game and then grew it out from there? Arguably...yes. But that the game as pitched won't be delivered is of no interest to anyone. The question is whether the game they are promising NOW will be delivered.

Is this a scam? As far as I can see...there has been mismanagement. I can even accept a lot of money, time and resources has been wasted. But it also appears that they are putting in an honest effort to develop the game. I think they've made a lot of bad decisions and they are overly reliant on the crowdfunding model....but a scam? An attempt to defraud the backers? No. Do I expect CIG to fold suddenly, and Chris Roberts to throw his hands up and say "Nice while it lasted"? No, it could happen but so far, no sign of it.

Have they run out of money? So far, they are continuing to develop the game. We've not had word anyone is not getting paid. The backers are still throwing money at CIG - foolishly IMO, but it ain't my money. I could believe an argument that a lot of money has been spent foolishly, or wasted. But you've been spinning this lien about CIG running out of money for quite some time now, and they are still in business, and still spending. That doesn't necessarily make you wrong...but it doesn't convince me you are right either.

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Again, you're misinformed. I have always maintained (it's in most of my blogs, musings etc) that I don't believe that he set out to scam anyone.

Quoting from above: the part where ii) I said they were actively now running as scam

Yes...I know you are saying "started out"....but I was talking about scamming people *NOW*. Any company is going to need business and is going to need sales of something to generate that business, unless they have some form of backer who can provide funds. CIG, by and large, do not. They need a continuing income in order to generate the money they need and the only thing they can really offer now is prepaid DLC and microtransactions. The only thing shady about this is the amount of money they are asking for these concept ships.

Yes - I know this provides an active disincentive to release the game. Yes - I do believe they have wasted funds. Yes - I think that developing a game on the scale they foresee will require a suitably large price tag as well...something well north of $100 million.  I think they have continually underestimated the amount of time and money a game of this scale and type will take. And when I say they, I primarily mean Chris Roberts who seems to be stuck in the 1990s.

But running as a scam *now* is not something I see  CIG are doing. They are aggressively raising funds, yes...and doing so in a manner that I dislike, but they have not made any secret of what they are doing.

The problem now is that CIG aren't building a space sim. They are building a Life Simulator. With a level of detail that is both unprecedented and unnecessary and - quite possibly - counterproductive. I am reminded of Brabens comment about "Space Legs" - making Space Legs is easy, what's difficult is making it fun. But CIG are adding a level of complexity to the game that - IMO - threatens to bog the player down in unnecessary detail, to strip fun away. The Multicrew mechanics, for example seems to be a case of adding extra complexity simply to ensure players have something to do. Calculating the trajectory of each bullet from the gun barrel seems to be a solution crying out for a problem...does it add anything to the game? And so on.

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The only reasonable or plausible answer is that I'm right. No demo, let alone a vertical slice, exists. You know, they spent so much time doing ship trailers - since that's what brings in money - yet, they somehow can't make a SQ42 trailer. Not to mention the Vanduul ship trailer they just aired during the holiday stream. How is that normal?

This to me strikes me as a consequences of some poor decisions. Unless they decouple SQ42 from SC entirely, then the two games will be sharing a lot of material. Graphics, Engines, Lore....the Flight models. That means, until a lot of these issues are locked down for SC, they can't really be added into SQ42. At some point, Chris Roberts is going to have to lockdown SQ42 and simply balance around the systems they have in place. But I don't think SQ42 will be ready for show until they get the basic systems - such as the flight model - locked down for both games

And surely as a developer you should know that the team doing the trailers isn't likely to be the team working on SQ42 so to a large degree, it doesn't matter what the trailer team is doing.

As it is....I still think CIG are having more issues and more problems than they let on. I think they have wasted a lot of money. I think there has been mismanagement,. I think there have been a number of poor decisions made and that those have had a long term impact.

But are they out to scam the backers? No. There is a continuing effort to develop the game
Will it be the game they pitched? No - but they stated that was the case 3 years ago. So let the point drop.
Will it be released?

From reports, SWTOR took an established developer 6 years to develop, used 800 developers across 4 studios and cost $200 million
From reports, GTA5 took an established developer 5 years to develop, used about 500 developers across 5 studios and cost $130 million

SC has been in development since 2011. Five years now. But it was not an established studio, and its development team was small. Of those 5 years, only 3 could perhaps be said to have been used for serious development. And of the $140 million raised so far, not all of that money has been spent.

A game of the size and scope Chris Roberts is going for (NOW) will take years to program and it will take tens of millions of dollars. Likely hundreds.

So - it is not surprising to me that they have so little to show.

But - they have even less to show than I would expect, mainly a few tech demoes. And at least partly, this is a result of Chris Roberts hyping up expectations and vastly underestimating the time and work required. Star Citizen - as I see things - would require another 3-5 years of development before it would be released as finished. A bit less if they cut some corners.

But even were it to fail - that wouldn't be proof of a scam. If Roberts knew CIG was failing and still continued to sucker in backers with promises he knew could not be kept, that'd be a scam.
But Roberts being aggressive in his fundraising isn't proof of anything save CIG likes money.









Scruffpuff

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Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
« Reply #229 on: January 01, 2017, 06:04:11 AM »
If you tell someone you can cure their cancer for $140 million, and there is no cure readily available, and you're not a doctor, and you have no degree or experience in medicine, but take the $140 million dollars anyway, is it a scam?

Is it a scam if you REALLY intend to cure the cancer?  Is it a scam if you enroll for college immediately after getting the money (along with using it for a limited edition Porsche and some other luxuries)?  Is it a scam if you fail half the courses and retake them? If you hire entire teams of people to figure out how to cure this cancer, and none of them know medicine or how to run a lab or even where to start, is that a scam?  Is it a scam if that entire team also wants to cure the cancer?

Should the patient hold out hope that he'll be cured simply because you took a bunch of money and told him, with honorable intentions, that you want to cure him?

Chris Roberts is NOT QUALIFIED TO MAKE THIS GAME.  He has no idea what he's doing, which means he stole $140 million to attempt to learn how.  Not to "make the game" - to "attempt to learn how to make the game" which is qualitatively different.

Kyrt

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Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
« Reply #230 on: January 01, 2017, 09:02:42 AM »
If you tell someone you can cure their cancer for $140 million, and there is no cure readily available, and you're not a doctor, and you have no degree or experience in medicine, but take the $140 million dollars anyway, is it a scam?

But that isn't what is happening...is it?

CIG are making no secret that they need money to develop the game, nor are they denying that the scope of the game has expanded greatly and changed since 2012.

Derek Smarts charge that CIG won't deliver the promised game is correct....and CIG agree with him.

Are CIG working to develop the game? As far as I can see....yes. Yes they are.
Have they made mistakes? Have they made bad decisions? Have they wasted time, money and resources? Yes.

You mention a Porsche in your reply. Derek Smart has also referred to homes and designer handbags. To which the obvious response is "So what"? People get paid and what they buy or do not buy with money they have earned is not a problem.

Now...if Derek Smart wants to make the charge that certain people at CIG are vastly overpaid...that'd certainly be interesting. If he wants to make a charge that Chris Roberts is using company funds for his lifestyle, he is free to make that charge.

But so far, all I have seen is the proverbial "nudge, nudge,wink,wink, where are they getting the money for that, huh?"

CIG is raising money to develop the game via crowdfunding.
That money has been used to set up a number of studios, to hire a large number of developers, and to fund various activities to enhance the game.

Believe it or not....hiring linguists to develop alien languages is not a waste of money. It might be a stupid use of money if the company could not afford them...but it could. Why complain about it?

CIG has made plenty of bad decisions in the past.
CIG continually seem to underestimate the amount of work, time and effort required to bring their vision to reality.
CIG has IMO wasted a good bit of time, money and resources

CIG and Chris Roberts deserve to be castigated for their failures in how this game has been developed. They should come straight out and admit that Star Citizen is at least three years away from release and that the final price of development...given their vision....is likely to be in the same ballpark as SWTOR, and likely greater.

But their failures in setting out and keeping to a timetable are not evidence of a scam. They are not proof the game will never be released.

If anything, it indicates bad management. Chris Roberts seems to think everything still operates on timescales from the 90s.

But is there a "scam"? Is there a wilful effort to deceive people onto parting with their money? Is there a conspiracy where Chris Roberts is laughing all the way to the bank....after hiring 400 devs and opening up 4 development studios and spending years to develop the technologies and systems needed for his vision?

CIG might be much shorter on money than many think. That the buffer many suppose they have might be smaller than thought, or even non existent. CIG are likely guilty of wasting time and money. They are guilty of continually missing their deadlines. They use a funding model that frees them from the constraints of a publisher, but which also disincentivises release of the final product. They have made a number of bad decisions and engaged in poor communication with their backers

CIG has done plenty for which Derek Smart should castigate them

None or little of which is actually unique in the industry nor evidence of a scam.

Will this game be released? I can hope so.
Will the game meet the current vision? I can hope so
Will the same be any good? I can hope so.

Is Chris Roberts trying to scam the player base? Maybe. But there is no evidence. He asked for money to develop the game and while development is far behind schedule, and while bad decisions have been taken, and while mistakes have been made....the truth is that as far as I can see, CIG are developing the game.

Is he taking the money knowing the game can never be finished or released? No...because there is nothing on his vision that is impossible. The main reason why such systems have never been used before is because they've never been deemed cost effective to develop. If CIG keep getting funded, there's little to suggest that the vision cannot bevome reality.

So, while CIG have admitted the game as pitched can never be released....because they've moved on from that...the game they are working on is very possible.

Given time and funding.

Now...maybe Derek Smart is correct. I certainly have my own doubts about CIGs ability to deliver, especially given their past record on management and their continued inability to set realistic release dates. But so far, I haven't seen any indication that there is any scam.

As I said...he is right that CIG can't deliver the game they pitched. But he never mentions that CIG have agreed with that and that the reason is not inability, incompetence, lack of funds or some fundamental dishonesty...but because their vision has grown, it has expanded.

So the question he should be asking is not if CIG can deliver the game it promised then...it won't....but whether CIG can deliver the game they are promising now. And if funding keeps up...I don't see any reason to say they can't.

Oh....the game will be years behind schedule and it won't have the same standout graphics that wowwed players in 2012 and we can't speak to its level of fun or quality, but so long as they can keep funding development there's no reason to think the game will never be released.

CIG have made plenty of mistakes and plenty that they should be hauled up on. I like seeing Derek Smarts point of view. I think he over exaggerates but I think he raises a good number of valid points.

But I don't see any evidence of a scam, and no sign the game will never be released. I see no sign it will be released either...but I ain't backing it so I don't really care that much. I'd like to play the finished product but I ain't gonna cry if it sinks.

But that doesn't make this a scam





« Last Edit: January 01, 2017, 11:09:30 AM by Kyrt »

somedude

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Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
« Reply #231 on: January 01, 2017, 10:41:24 AM »
I see your points, but u are getting into a game of semantics here.

IS deliberately lying and deceiving your backers scamming? It sure as hell is. Or do u think CR is to dumb to not see that a statement like SQ42 is comming in 2016 is a lie even before he said it? If he is that dumb, he's the dumbest person on the planet.
And no, this is not an underestimation on CR's part. This is blatant lying in order to precure more funds.

And yes, some ppl at CIG ar GROSSLY overpayed. Biggest example: Sandi. An untalented woman with 0 relevant education/experience raking in a very big paycheck for..... what exactly? Scamming and lying, cause thats all she does (and chasing away employees). All just because she's the wife of the head bozo.

i dont believe the scam resides in the making the game part. They are trying to do that, but just fail miserably at it. The scam part is in their marketing.
« Last Edit: January 01, 2017, 10:46:02 AM by somedude »

Kyrt

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Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
« Reply #232 on: January 01, 2017, 11:06:02 AM »
IS deliberately lying and deceiving your backers scamming? It sure as hell is. Or do u think CR is to dumb to not see that a statement like SQ42 is comming in 2016 is a lie even before he said it? If he is that dumb, he's the dumbest person on the planet.

No....I think he has simply been out of the business so long that he still hasn't adjusted to the developments times and costs of current games development. As a result, he cobtinually underestimates both.

Being wrong is not the same as being deceitful.


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And no, this is not an underestimation on CR's part. This is blatant lying in order to precure more funds.

What proof is there that he is lying as opposed to mistaken? CIG are running a very successful funding campaign.....but the main issues appear to be missed deadlines and the non appearance of SQ42.

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And yes, some ppl at CIG ar GROSSLY overpayed. Biggest example: Sandi. An untalented woman with 0 relevant education/experience raking in a very big paycheck for..... what exactly?

Running a marketing campaign that has brought in over $140 million dollars.

Leaving aside the vitriol and hyperbole...how much is she being paid, and how much would you expect someone at another company to be paid for the same role?


SteveBox

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Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
« Reply #233 on: January 01, 2017, 12:04:24 PM »
Because reality abhors a vacuum...

"Fraud is generally defined in the law as an intentional misrepresentation of material existing fact made by one person to another with knowledge of its falsity and for the purpose of inducing the other person to act, and upon which the other person relies with resulting injury or damage. Fraud may also be made by an omission or purposeful failure to state material facts, which nondisclosure makes other statements misleading.

To constitute fraud, a misrepresentation or omission must also relate to an 'existing fact', not a promise to do something in the future, unless the person who made the promise did so without any present intent to perform it or with a positive intent not to perform it. Promises to do something in the future or a mere expression of opinion cannot be the basis of a claim of fraud unless the person stating the opinion has exclusive or superior knowledge of existing facts which are inconsistent with such opinion. The false statement or omission must be material, meaning that it was significant to the decision to be made.

Sometimes, it must be shown that the plaintiff's reliance was justifiable, and that upon reasonable inquiry would not have discovered the truth of the matter. For injury or damage to be the result of fraud, it must be shown that, except for the fraud, the injury or damage would not have occurred.

To constitute fraud the misrepresentation or omission must be made knowingly and intentionally, not as a result of mistake or accident, or in negligent disregard of its truth or falsity. Also, the plaintiff must prove that the defendant intended for the plaintiff to rely upon the misrepresentation and/or omission; that the plaintiff did in fact rely upon the misrepresentation and/or omission; and that the plaintiff suffered injury or damage as a result of the fraud. Damages may include punitive damages as a punishment or public example due to the malicious nature of the fraud.

There are many state and federal laws to regulate fraud in numerous areas. Some of the areas most heavily litigated include consumer fraud, corporate fraud, and insurance fraud."

(Source: https://definitions.uslegal.com/f/fraud/)

There.

Make of that what you will.

somedude

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Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
« Reply #234 on: January 01, 2017, 02:33:42 PM »
IS deliberately lying and deceiving your backers scamming? It sure as hell is. Or do u think CR is to dumb to not see that a statement like SQ42 is comming in 2016 is a lie even before he said it? If he is that dumb, he's the dumbest person on the planet.

No....I think he has simply been out of the business so long that he still hasn't adjusted to the developments times and costs of current games development. As a result, he cobtinually underestimates both.

Being wrong is not the same as being deceitful.

Thats very naive of u my friend. Once, i would say yes, u are correct. But CR has done the same thing over a dozen of times now... Thats blatant lying.

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And no, this is not an underestimation on CR's part. This is blatant lying in order to precure more funds.

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What proof is there that he is lying as opposed to mistaken? CIG are running a very successful funding campaign.....but the main issues appear to be missed deadlines and the non appearance of SQ42.

How about the fact that he has overhyped his releases since kickstarter and they never show up on time? IF thats not enough proof for u, nothing is.

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And yes, some ppl at CIG ar GROSSLY overpayed. Biggest example: Sandi. An untalented woman with 0 relevant education/experience raking in a very big paycheck for..... what exactly?

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Running a marketing campaign that has brought in over $140 million dollars.

Leaving aside the vitriol and hyperbole...how much is she being paid, and how much would you expect someone at another company to be paid for the same role?

Sandi is officialy the head of marketing true. But that 140 million is DESPITE her, not because of her. She has been nothing but a detriment to the project.

I dont care what she is paid, 1 euro a month would be to much. Fact is she is not qualified for the job and she shouldnt be there in the first place.
« Last Edit: January 01, 2017, 02:35:40 PM by somedude »

mackjazno

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Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
« Reply #235 on: January 01, 2017, 04:00:16 PM »

Sandi is officialy the head of marketing true. But that 140 million is DESPITE her, not because of her. She has been nothing but a detriment to the project.

I dont care what she is paid, 1 euro a month would be to much. Fact is she is not qualified for the job and she shouldnt be there in the first place.

Not sure I'm following. So, if she was awesome at the head of marketing, the project would have raised 300 million?

somedude

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Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
« Reply #236 on: January 01, 2017, 04:02:41 PM »

Sandi is officialy the head of marketing true. But that 140 million is DESPITE her, not because of her. She has been nothing but a detriment to the project.

I dont care what she is paid, 1 euro a month would be to much. Fact is she is not qualified for the job and she shouldnt be there in the first place.

Not sure I'm following. So, if she was awesome at the head of marketing, the project would have raised 300 million?

More at least. Look, (this is my opinion only offcourse) all i've seen sandi do is screw older backers in favor of new money. Someone with a brain would've found ways to appease both old and new backers, thus not alienating a large portion of your potential income group. Not gonna go into specifics cause its a long list that everyone (at least those that been here since kickstarter)knows about and i'm lazy.

Kyrt

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Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
« Reply #237 on: January 01, 2017, 04:11:35 PM »
Thats very naive of u my friend. Once, i would say yes, u are correct. But CR has done the same thing over a dozen of times now... Thats blatant lying.

It's possible. And yet I know people who are just like that. Who - especially if they don't take the time to stop and think - will simply say what feels right. Chris Roberts experience as a developer...well, it's about 15 years out of date now.  He hasn't really been a developer for more than decade. He was out of the industry for much of that time, and even now he is more of a manager and marketer so he hasn't had the hands on experience that would conceivably give him the experience necessary to provide more realistic deadlines.

Nor is he the only developer or company to give wildly unrealistic deadlines or underestimate the time frame or resources needed to complete a project. Such problems have bedevilled the industry for years. One reason why so many developers are so loathe to actually provide hard dates. And this isn't an issue which just affects gaming.

Chris Roberts may indeed be lying. But simply being consistently wrong about release dates and aggressively fundraising for the game is proof of nothing.

So far...all that you can say CR is guilty of is continually underestimating the time required to get systems to a level that matches his criteria for release.


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How about the fact that he has overhyped his releases since kickstarter and they never show up on time? IF thats not enough proof for u, nothing is.

He's overhyped the game. He has raised expectations for it.

Wow. He's doing what every single publisher in the world does. The problem of course is they do it when the game is near final release...he's doing during the alpha stage when things are much less robust or stable and more subject to delays.

You want to argue that he is a bad manager? I could buy that.
You want to make a claim that CIG has wasted money? I could buy that as well
You want to state that Roberts has made a number of bad decisions? That he has overhyped the game? That he is using a funding model that has questionable elements? Sure...I can go along with that.
You want to debate that CIG has run out of money and is running on fumes? I could see that. I don't believe that is the case, but I could see it.
You want to make the caser that CIG have underdelivered so far, producing mostly what can be termed "tech demoes" and engine rewrites? Sure. I've even made that argument myself.

But you want to argue that he is engaged in a scam...that he is engaged in criminal activity. That he is effectively defrauding the backers.
And the proof you offer is that - like so many others - his company misses deadlines for publication and overhypes the game.

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Sandi is officialy the head of marketing true. But that 140 million is DESPITE her, not because of her. She has been nothing but a detriment to the project.

Really? You could be right.

But leaving aside your feelings for her, what evidence do you have to show that this money came in despite her and not because of her? How has she been a detriment to the project? How much is she getting paid and what level of pay do you think someone in her position should be getting?

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I dont care what she is paid, 1 euro a month would be to much. Fact is she is not qualified for the job and she shouldnt be there in the first place.

And yet her department is part of why CIG has raked in over $35million in funding in 2016. And the only reason why you seem to think she is overpaid is because - you personally don't like her for some reason.

Now I can't say that none of what you say is false. What I can say is that I personally require more evidence than "Derek Smart said so". Oh, I can accept that CIG has had issues. That CR has made some very bad decisions. That there has been money wasted and squandered. That the game has been overhyped. That CIG should be showing more progress than they have made. I think Derek Smart has made some very good points about what they are trying to do and CIGs responses to those have been - at times - counterproductive. I think that - to a degree - Derek Smart is right. But - only to a degree, and not necessarily in the specifics.

But inexperience and bad decisions and poor management and overhyping do not equate to "scam". That you do not seem to like Sandi Gardiner does not mean she is overpaid. Part of the fundraising drive is marketing....and CIGs fundraising has been very successful by anyones standards.

mackjazno

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Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
« Reply #238 on: January 01, 2017, 04:18:03 PM »

Sandi is officialy the head of marketing true. But that 140 million is DESPITE her, not because of her. She has been nothing but a detriment to the project.

I dont care what she is paid, 1 euro a month would be to much. Fact is she is not qualified for the job and she shouldnt be there in the first place.

Not sure I'm following. So, if she was awesome at the head of marketing, the project would have raised 300 million?

More at least. Look, (this is my opinion only offcourse) all i've seen sandi do is screw older backers in favor of new money. Someone with a brain would've found ways to appease both old and new backers, thus not alienating a large portion of your potential income group. Not gonna go into specifics cause its a long list that everyone (at least those that been here since kickstarter)knows about and i'm lazy.

Got it.  All the early on backer promises too numerous to count.  And pretty much made early backing no different than anyone else.  Personally, I just don't care anymore.  They got my money but I got a nice chunk back.  Now I just sit back and watch..

If only this game would have stopped at single player SQ42 and not gone into the bizarre stretch goal territory.
« Last Edit: January 01, 2017, 04:20:12 PM by mackjazno »

Kyrt

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Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
« Reply #239 on: January 01, 2017, 04:20:37 PM »
More at least.

To be blunt - that is a fantasy. CIG is bringing in double what other crowdfunding games are generating - combined. While I have qualms about the model, I can't argue with its success.

$35 million in 2016 was a marvellous result and one not matched by the marketing professionals at the other companies. CIGs marketing is doing something right to generate that amount of cash for the company, and Sandi is head of marketing. You might think she is unqualified, you might think she is a figurehead, you might think she does nothing but buy designer handbags all day but the simple fact remains...CIG achieved over $35 million of funding in 2016 and a large part of that is due to marketing.

CIG is generating a huge amount of cash for development already. CIG is very successful in this area. Arguing that anyone else should have been capable of generating even more - even when other companies fail to come close - is petty.
« Last Edit: January 01, 2017, 07:41:16 PM by Kyrt »

 

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