Author Topic: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.  (Read 165940 times)

Offline dsmart

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Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
« Reply #270 on: January 05, 2017, 06:36:20 AM »
Alexa on Echo Dot:

Me: "Alexa. Is Star Citizen a scam?".

Alexa on Echo Dot: "According to Derek Smart anAmerican videogame developer, Star Citizen as pitched cannot be made. It's a scam. You'll see. Two weeks."
Game developers are just human beings who happen to make games for a living. If you want to hold us up to higher standards of conduct, then go ahead ...but don't be surprised if we don't uphold them.

Offline Darklegend1

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Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
« Reply #271 on: January 05, 2017, 09:51:30 AM »
Alexa on Echo Dot:

Me: "Alexa. Is Star Citizen a scam?".

Alexa on Echo Dot: "According to Derek Smart anAmerican videogame developer, Star Citizen as pitched cannot be made. It's a scam. You'll see. Two weeks."

haha yep as soon as 3.0 schedule comes out there will be blood and chaos.. :supaburn:

Offline dsmart

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Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
« Reply #272 on: January 05, 2017, 12:14:41 PM »
That time when...

Quote
Remember back in September when game-journos Gamestar.de accidental leaked that Squadron 42 was delayed until 2017, then CIG denied the info as false, then a month later at CitizenCon the delay was confirmed, then the Forbes guy changed the title from "Delayed Indefinitely" to "Delayed Until Some Future Undefined Date" because shitizens mailbombed him?

Good times.

And through it all, they were busy yelling at me for spreading FUD back when I wrote that neither Star Citizen nor SQ42 was going to see a 2016 release.

Fun times indeed.
Game developers are just human beings who happen to make games for a living. If you want to hold us up to higher standards of conduct, then go ahead ...but don't be surprised if we don't uphold them.

Offline dsmart

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Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
« Reply #273 on: January 05, 2017, 12:48:16 PM »
Meanwhile, back at the ranch...

Sorry guys, 3.0 is not coming any time soon. Or at least for the first 8 months of 2017 or even Dece

ps: nobody feels scammed though. so this is all perfectly normal.
Game developers are just human beings who happen to make games for a living. If you want to hold us up to higher standards of conduct, then go ahead ...but don't be surprised if we don't uphold them.

Offline Kyrt

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Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
« Reply #274 on: January 06, 2017, 01:37:12 AM »
But the buyer will be angry with me, and will even keep questioning my competency, ethics, morale and character but UNLESS i deliver the product to him he has every right to call me a scammer.

And I will ask you again.

CIG has done plenty that they should be questioned about.

But where is the **fraud**?

They are raising money by crowdfunding.
They are open about their objectives.
They have acknowledged that their original vision can't be delivered - because it has grown since the original Kickstarter.
They have not provided a release date and are very open about the fact that their product is currently in Alpha and hence subject to delays.

What are they doing wrong? They are giving release dates for Alpha patches which, by their nature, are subject to delays. That is unprofessional, IMO. But then, other companies would not be allowing Alpha access at this stage. But CIG needs to because this is part of what feeds their funding model. There are signs of bad management, poor communication and wasted funds/time/resources. With their stretch goals and extra funding, CIG transitioned away from the original game to a vision that is more akin to an actual MMORPG.....transitioned away rom a simplistic Wing Commander successor to a game more akin to WoW or SWTOR.

In short, transitioned into a game type that could requires hundreds of millions and the better part of a decade to develop rather than keep their original vision which was much more achievable.

So - I will ask again - where is the fraud? You say this is a scam? Where is the money going? Is it going into game development? Yes. It appears it is. Is it being siphoned off? Doesn't appear to be.

CIG are raising money, being upfront about the risks involved, and using that money as the backers intend. They are developing the game that they have promised. So there is no intent or action that seems to compromised fraud. A game that should take years and tens of millions to develop IS taking years and tens/hundreds of millions to develop.

Now - the crowdfunding model can be criticised for aspect such as its lack of accountability. CIGs marketing leaves a lot to be desired. CIG and Chris Roberts have made plenty of poor decisions, wasted a fair amount of time and money, and arguably should have more progress to show  than they currently do. If the info we have is even partially correct, Chris Roberts appears to be a poor manager and even a bit out of touch with modern methods of development. CIG continuing to provide release dates which it misses is unprofessional and at best, undermines confidence. At this stage of development, they should almost not be announcing releases until after such releases are ready.

But none of that, nothing that CIG has ever said or done, constitutes fraud or makes this a scam.

As for your example...

CIG promised to make a game. They also promised to make custom tools to develop that game. Their stretch goals which were funded also changed the scope and scale of the game.
They have produced demoes, they have created their tools, they have improved and worked on their engine.

Have they misinformed their backers? Kept facts hidden? Deliberately misrepresented information and facts the players need to know? Are engaged in deliberate fraud?
Maybe they are - but so far, there is no evidence of it. Just a few people engaged in the time honoured practise of mud slinging.

So far, it looks like CIG are developing the game. It looks like they are making progress. It looks like they are making mistakes doing so. But the game is still coming along. The features that were promised are being added. Slowly, but they are being added.

CIG are taking money on the promise that they will develop a game. The money is being used to develop the game. And with 400 Devs and 4 sites, it is easy to see where even $30 million a year could be spent. Is this a scam? Is this fraud? Because so far, it just looks like mudslinging.





Offline Darklegend1

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Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
« Reply #275 on: January 06, 2017, 03:54:56 AM »
But the buyer will be angry with me, and will even keep questioning my competency, ethics, morale and character but UNLESS i deliver the product to him he has every right to call me a scammer.

And I will ask you again.

CIG has done plenty that they should be questioned about.

But where is the **fraud**?

They are raising money by crowdfunding.
They are open about their objectives.
They have acknowledged that their original vision can't be delivered - because it has grown since the original Kickstarter.
They have not provided a release date and are very open about the fact that their product is currently in Alpha and hence subject to delays.

What are they doing wrong? They are giving release dates for Alpha patches which, by their nature, are subject to delays. That is unprofessional, IMO. But then, other companies would not be allowing Alpha access at this stage. But CIG needs to because this is part of what feeds their funding model. There are signs of bad management, poor communication and wasted funds/time/resources. With their stretch goals and extra funding, CIG transitioned away from the original game to a vision that is more akin to an actual MMORPG.....transitioned away rom a simplistic Wing Commander successor to a game more akin to WoW or SWTOR.

In short, transitioned into a game type that could requires hundreds of millions and the better part of a decade to develop rather than keep their original vision which was much more achievable.

So - I will ask again - where is the fraud? You say this is a scam? Where is the money going? Is it going into game development? Yes. It appears it is. Is it being siphoned off? Doesn't appear to be.

CIG are raising money, being upfront about the risks involved, and using that money as the backers intend. They are developing the game that they have promised. So there is no intent or action that seems to compromised fraud. A game that should take years and tens of millions to develop IS taking years and tens/hundreds of millions to develop.

Now - the crowdfunding model can be criticised for aspect such as its lack of accountability. CIGs marketing leaves a lot to be desired. CIG and Chris Roberts have made plenty of poor decisions, wasted a fair amount of time and money, and arguably should have more progress to show  than they currently do. If the info we have is even partially correct, Chris Roberts appears to be a poor manager and even a bit out of touch with modern methods of development. CIG continuing to provide release dates which it misses is unprofessional and at best, undermines confidence. At this stage of development, they should almost not be announcing releases until after such releases are ready.

But none of that, nothing that CIG has ever said or done, constitutes fraud or makes this a scam.

As for your example...

CIG promised to make a game. They also promised to make custom tools to develop that game. Their stretch goals which were funded also changed the scope and scale of the game.
They have produced demoes, they have created their tools, they have improved and worked on their engine.

Have they misinformed their backers? Kept facts hidden? Deliberately misrepresented information and facts the players need to know? Are engaged in deliberate fraud?
Maybe they are - but so far, there is no evidence of it. Just a few people engaged in the time honoured practise of mud slinging.

So far, it looks like CIG are developing the game. It looks like they are making progress. It looks like they are making mistakes doing so. But the game is still coming along. The features that were promised are being added. Slowly, but they are being added.

CIG are taking money on the promise that they will develop a game. The money is being used to develop the game. And with 400 Devs and 4 sites, it is easy to see where even $30 million a year could be spent. Is this a scam? Is this fraud? Because so far, it just looks like mudslinging.
sorry bro i cant break it into any simpler form than i already have. be well :laugh: and btw can you share with us how old are you?
« Last Edit: January 06, 2017, 03:58:23 AM by Darklegend1 »

Offline dsmart

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Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
« Reply #276 on: January 06, 2017, 05:46:17 AM »
Finally, after being late (like the other two entities) and paying fines each year, for whatever reason, CIG (UK) have now filed their financials.

Though these are for 2015, it's clear now why they need to keep raising money. Basically, CIG (UK) costs 15m GBP ($18m) a year; which is 50% of the $35.9m raised in 2015. wow.

This number is going to probably be higher in 2016 due to the increased head count as shown in a slide during CitizenCon 2016 this past Oct.



Remember, for some reason, there are 3 (!) UK companies for this single project. Seriously. CIG (UK), RSI (UK), F42 (UK).

And CIG (UK) is possibly funding both F42 (UK) and F42 (GER); but there is no way to know that info without seeing the F42 (GER) filings, as they could be funded by

CIG (UK)

https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/company/08815227/filing-history

F42 (UK)

https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/company/08703814/filing-history

RSI (UK)

https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/company/08882924/filing-history

The complete (we think) list of companies setup for and/or associated with the Star Citizen project in some form or another:

Quote
List of Star Citizen related corporate entities

1) Cloud Imperium Games Corp, West Hollywood, CA
2) Cloud Imperium Games LLC, West Hollywood, CA
3) Cloud Imperium Services, LLC West Hollywood, CA < The one is interesting. It is found on BBB, but is not in the CA Secretary Of State dB records
4) Cloud Imperium Games LLC, Santa Monica, CA
5) Cloud Imperium Games Texas LLC, West Hollywood, CA
6) Cloud Imperium Games Texas LLC, Austin, TX
7) Cloud Imperium Games UK Limited, UK
8) Foundry 42 Limited, UK
9) Foundry 42, Germany
10) Gemini 42 Entertainment LLC, West Hollywood, CA
11) Gemini 42 Productions LLC, Santa Monica, CA
12) Roberts Space Industries Corp, West Hollywood, CA
13) Roberts Space Industries International Limited, UK
14) Twin Brothers Production Inc, West Hollywood, CA
15) Twin Bros, Germany

So someone crunched the numbers and connected the dots with all three Star Citizen companies, so you don't have to.


« Last Edit: January 07, 2017, 09:14:17 AM by dsmart »
Game developers are just human beings who happen to make games for a living. If you want to hold us up to higher standards of conduct, then go ahead ...but don't be surprised if we don't uphold them.

Offline dsmart

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Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
« Reply #277 on: January 06, 2017, 06:01:25 AM »
sorry bro i cant break it into any simpler form than i already have. be well :laugh: and btw can you share with us how old are you?

Just put him on ignore and move on.
Game developers are just human beings who happen to make games for a living. If you want to hold us up to higher standards of conduct, then go ahead ...but don't be surprised if we don't uphold them.

Offline Lir

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Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
« Reply #278 on: January 06, 2017, 02:16:54 PM »
But the buyer will be angry with me, and will even keep questioning my competency, ethics, morale and character but UNLESS i deliver the product to him he has every right to call me a scammer.

And I will ask you again.

CIG has done plenty that they should be questioned about.

But where is the **fraud**?

They are raising money by crowdfunding.
They are open about their objectives.
They have acknowledged that their original vision can't be delivered - because it has grown since the original Kickstarter.
They have not provided a release date and are very open about the fact that their product is currently in Alpha and hence subject to delays.

What are they doing wrong? They are giving release dates for Alpha patches which, by their nature, are subject to delays. That is unprofessional, IMO. But then, other companies would not be allowing Alpha access at this stage. But CIG needs to because this is part of what feeds their funding model. There are signs of bad management, poor communication and wasted funds/time/resources. With their stretch goals and extra funding, CIG transitioned away from the original game to a vision that is more akin to an actual MMORPG.....transitioned away rom a simplistic Wing Commander successor to a game more akin to WoW or SWTOR.

In short, transitioned into a game type that could requires hundreds of millions and the better part of a decade to develop rather than keep their original vision which was much more achievable.

So - I will ask again - where is the fraud? You say this is a scam? Where is the money going? Is it going into game development? Yes. It appears it is. Is it being siphoned off? Doesn't appear to be.

CIG are raising money, being upfront about the risks involved, and using that money as the backers intend. They are developing the game that they have promised. So there is no intent or action that seems to compromised fraud. A game that should take years and tens of millions to develop IS taking years and tens/hundreds of millions to develop.

Now - the crowdfunding model can be criticised for aspect such as its lack of accountability. CIGs marketing leaves a lot to be desired. CIG and Chris Roberts have made plenty of poor decisions, wasted a fair amount of time and money, and arguably should have more progress to show  than they currently do. If the info we have is even partially correct, Chris Roberts appears to be a poor manager and even a bit out of touch with modern methods of development. CIG continuing to provide release dates which it misses is unprofessional and at best, undermines confidence. At this stage of development, they should almost not be announcing releases until after such releases are ready.

But none of that, nothing that CIG has ever said or done, constitutes fraud or makes this a scam.

As for your example...

CIG promised to make a game. They also promised to make custom tools to develop that game. Their stretch goals which were funded also changed the scope and scale of the game.
They have produced demoes, they have created their tools, they have improved and worked on their engine.

Have they misinformed their backers? Kept facts hidden? Deliberately misrepresented information and facts the players need to know? Are engaged in deliberate fraud?
Maybe they are - but so far, there is no evidence of it. Just a few people engaged in the time honoured practise of mud slinging.

So far, it looks like CIG are developing the game. It looks like they are making progress. It looks like they are making mistakes doing so. But the game is still coming along. The features that were promised are being added. Slowly, but they are being added.

CIG are taking money on the promise that they will develop a game. The money is being used to develop the game. And with 400 Devs and 4 sites, it is easy to see where even $30 million a year could be spent. Is this a scam? Is this fraud? Because so far, it just looks like mudslinging.

Hello Kyrt.
'How many fingers am I holding up Winston?'
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wTFV9w4B0eg(edit)

CIG would tell you 5 or green.
The reality as in facts, truth, something you can check with your bare eyes says blue.

You are saying green.

Come on be smarter than them, compute the evidences for yourself, it would only take your good will.
« Last Edit: January 06, 2017, 02:23:38 PM by Lir »

Offline Darklegend1

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Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
« Reply #279 on: January 07, 2017, 12:22:31 AM »
But the buyer will be angry with me, and will even keep questioning my competency, ethics, morale and character but UNLESS i deliver the product to him he has every right to call me a scammer.

And I will ask you again.

CIG has done plenty that they should be questioned about.

But where is the **fraud**?

They are raising money by crowdfunding.
They are open about their objectives.
They have acknowledged that their original vision can't be delivered - because it has grown since the original Kickstarter.
They have not provided a release date and are very open about the fact that their product is currently in Alpha and hence subject to delays.

What are they doing wrong? They are giving release dates for Alpha patches which, by their nature, are subject to delays. That is unprofessional, IMO. But then, other companies would not be allowing Alpha access at this stage. But CIG needs to because this is part of what feeds their funding model. There are signs of bad management, poor communication and wasted funds/time/resources. With their stretch goals and extra funding, CIG transitioned away from the original game to a vision that is more akin to an actual MMORPG.....transitioned away rom a simplistic Wing Commander successor to a game more akin to WoW or SWTOR.

In short, transitioned into a game type that could requires hundreds of millions and the better part of a decade to develop rather than keep their original vision which was much more achievable.

So - I will ask again - where is the fraud? You say this is a scam? Where is the money going? Is it going into game development? Yes. It appears it is. Is it being siphoned off? Doesn't appear to be.

CIG are raising money, being upfront about the risks involved, and using that money as the backers intend. They are developing the game that they have promised. So there is no intent or action that seems to compromised fraud. A game that should take years and tens of millions to develop IS taking years and tens/hundreds of millions to develop.

Now - the crowdfunding model can be criticised for aspect such as its lack of accountability. CIGs marketing leaves a lot to be desired. CIG and Chris Roberts have made plenty of poor decisions, wasted a fair amount of time and money, and arguably should have more progress to show  than they currently do. If the info we have is even partially correct, Chris Roberts appears to be a poor manager and even a bit out of touch with modern methods of development. CIG continuing to provide release dates which it misses is unprofessional and at best, undermines confidence. At this stage of development, they should almost not be announcing releases until after such releases are ready.

But none of that, nothing that CIG has ever said or done, constitutes fraud or makes this a scam.

As for your example...

CIG promised to make a game. They also promised to make custom tools to develop that game. Their stretch goals which were funded also changed the scope and scale of the game.
They have produced demoes, they have created their tools, they have improved and worked on their engine.

Have they misinformed their backers? Kept facts hidden? Deliberately misrepresented information and facts the players need to know? Are engaged in deliberate fraud?
Maybe they are - but so far, there is no evidence of it. Just a few people engaged in the time honoured practise of mud slinging.

So far, it looks like CIG are developing the game. It looks like they are making progress. It looks like they are making mistakes doing so. But the game is still coming along. The features that were promised are being added. Slowly, but they are being added.

CIG are taking money on the promise that they will develop a game. The money is being used to develop the game. And with 400 Devs and 4 sites, it is easy to see where even $30 million a year could be spent. Is this a scam? Is this fraud? Because so far, it just looks like mudslinging.

Hello Kyrt.
'How many fingers am I holding up Winston?'
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wTFV9w4B0eg(edit)

CIG would tell you 5 or green.
The reality as in facts, truth, something you can check with your bare eyes says blue.

You are saying green.

Come on be smarter than them, compute the evidences for yourself, it would only take your good will.

LOL u really think he will understand this !!!!! :cripes:

Offline Lir

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Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
« Reply #280 on: January 07, 2017, 09:32:49 AM »

LOL u really think he will understand this !!!!! :cripes:

Probably not. Let say that was that day 's good deed. Although I challenge him to play the quote&debunk bollox on that, could be fun if anything.
« Last Edit: January 07, 2017, 09:34:28 AM by Lir »

Offline dsmart

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Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
« Reply #281 on: January 09, 2017, 08:08:38 AM »
Game developers are just human beings who happen to make games for a living. If you want to hold us up to higher standards of conduct, then go ahead ...but don't be surprised if we don't uphold them.

Offline dsmart

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Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
« Reply #282 on: January 09, 2017, 04:05:09 PM »
Chris Roberts in Der Spiegel:

"SQ42 will probably be finished in 2017"

He said PROBABLY
Game developers are just human beings who happen to make games for a living. If you want to hold us up to higher standards of conduct, then go ahead ...but don't be surprised if we don't uphold them.

Offline Kyrt

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Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
« Reply #283 on: January 09, 2017, 10:38:25 PM »
Come on be smarter than them, compute the evidences for yourself, it would only take your good will.

My good will tells me not to accuse someone of a crime without proof, especially when the intention behind that accusation appears to be nothing more than blatant mud slinging and the satisfaction of smearing another persons good name simply because you disagree with some aspect of his life or work.

CIG has enough issues and problems and things that they can be castigated over without making stuff up. For all that CIG are doing wrong with Star Citizen, for all the bad decisions and poor management and wasted money that you can point to, for all the missed deadlines and more...there is no need to levy the made up charge of "Fraud" or "Scam".

Take them to task for what they have done wrong. Don't make up false accusations simply because it gives you a thrill.

Offline Padrepapp

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Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
« Reply #284 on: January 10, 2017, 12:03:05 AM »
Come on be smarter than them, compute the evidences for yourself, it would only take your good will.
another persons good name

are you talking about Chris Roberts? The current Chris Roberts? Good name after all the shit he has done? He already shit all over his name.

 

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