Author Topic: Star Citizen Lies, Ramblings, Jpegs, and Bullshit  (Read 102873 times)

dsmart

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Re: Star Citizen - Lies, Ramblings, Jpegs, and Bullshit
« Reply #150 on: December 31, 2018, 05:49:08 AM »
Not necessarily. The MMO part of the game can't be made, not with CryEngine, but a limited scope, level based, linear singleplayer SQ42 could be made. It just can't be made with Chris in charge as he's already proven to be the worst project manager in the industry.

Yes. But they would have to start from scratch because the time and money it would take to rip out everything that's not needed for such a game, they could start with UE4. I know a lot about this because I have faced it many times in the past. You take a look at what you have and determine whether or not to continue down a path of great aggro, or strip out stuff you know is either not needed, problematic etc, and go from there.

If someone called me, right now and said "How would you make Star Citizen from this point on?", I would ask for $20M and 2 years. Keep all the content (art, models etc), throw everything else out. Start from scratch with a new engine (UE4 is the best option to build a custom engine from) and build a new Freelancer (Star Citizen + SQ42) but with session based multiplayer. It's how Elite Dangerous came to be so successful. They stuck with a tight vision and plan.

And the reason I say throw everything (engine related) else out is because the amount of time that it would take to rip out all the broken garbage, could be better spent making new components. e.g. multiplayer/networking, flight model, control scheme etc - all suck, are a performance nightmare etc. Think about it; if they didn't add anything else to the game right now, and instead just fixed bugs and complete the in-progress features, do you see a "game" of any kind there?

Decisions like this are the primary reason why I decided not to do a new Universal Combat game even when space games started coming back around the 2012 time frame. I knew that I would have to start from scratch with a new engine, it would take too much time, cost too much money, and was very risky in the current gaming climate. So instead, I took a look at the last version released in 2009, and the fact that even though I had made my money back on it, a LOT of people were interested when I put it on steam in Feb 2015. That game was released back in 2009 (it wasn't on Steam). Though SteamSpy is off, it has sold a little over 300K units on there alone. And the entire series (which first came out in 2004), hasn't even sold 2M units to date. It's a very niche product and category.

Because I knew that I had fans who would still buy it if I kept improving on it, I went the DLC route instead. If you look at the latest version changelog which I released just yesterday, as well as the Trello dev board, it's a LOT of under-the-hood updates, along with some improvements. I am not making any attempt to add the latest "kewl thing" because everyone else is doing that. Heck, I didn't even once consider multiplayer, though the original did have it. At the top level in terms of visual content, it's just a new coat of paint. By the time it's completed (and I'm the only dev working on it, the others are artists/modelers), it would have cost less to make than a whole new game; though I'm not entirely certain that it would have taken less time as a full blown product, seeing as I work on it part-time and in tandem with my other projects (LoD, Alganon).

Heck, I still get hives and sleepless nights over Line Of Defense, my most expensive game. And I had to make that decision almost a year ago to port it to UE4 rather than risk a PC only release, and deal with an engine that was no longer supported on any platform. I just wrote an updated dev blog earlier this month about that.

I just don't see any feasible way for them to go anywhere with Star Citizen in its current form. They will of course keep adding broken stuff on top of a broken stuff and spend more time fixing layers of broken stuff than working toward an end goal. They have to do that in order to keep as close to promises as possible. It's why they sell JPEGs, make the ships, throw it in - regardless of functionality or required gameplay features being implemented. And it's precisely why they seemingly don't have a closed game loop - of any kind - over 6 yrs later.

Now it's going to get worse because croberts is $46M (that we know of) in the hole to third-parties (besides banks) and seeing as they're NOT profitable, money to pay that back has to come from somewhere. That's through cut-backs so that they can stretch backer money, and also through sales of something new. That being SQ42 - which is now probably two whole years - according to them.

I have to say that it's astonishing to me that they're touting SQ42 as coming to Beta in 18 months (which probably means about 24 months to "completion"), and very few backers blinked. Aside from being a massive five alarm fire proving me right that they've been lying this whole time. It's even more astonishing that those same backers look at the financial brochures (which as I said in my A New Dawn blog is just for show) and immediately proclaim that everything is fine! Even though with $14M in the bank YE 2017, they would have collapsed if funding had stopped.

Here's something else worth noting. They knew since May 2018 that they had raised money via third parties. But they kept it quiet, waiting until after the Q4 fundraising events so as not to panic the whales who are still delusional into thinking everything is OK. Then guess what? Between Oct-Dec, they have raised about $14M. Which is close to the amount of money they had left in reserves back in YE 2017.

Also, though the investment news was made public on 12/12, the official CIG statement didn't come out until 12/20. For that 10 day period, they made almost double what they made back in 2017 during the same period. Then after the news dropped (by CIG), between 12/20 - 12/30, they have made about $1.5M compared to the $1.6M during the same period in 2017. No, it doesn't make any sense whatsoever.

Nobody knows how exactly this is all going to end, but now that they have shown that they couldn't build a game of any kind with $213M, whatever they release in the form of Star Citizen and/or SQ42, isn't going to be worth the money spent because any seasoned dev studio could have built the original scoped game for about $20M. I personally can't wait for the mental gymnastics which are going to be playing out in 2019 to 2020 when the sheep try to justify how they paid $200M+ for Gold chest, but ended up with a $20M stainless steel box - without a lid. But hey, they've always said they're funding the "dream". We just get to lol.
Star Citizen isn't a game. It's a TV show about a bunch of characters making a game. It's basically "This is Spinal Tap" - except people think the band is real.

Lord_Savage

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Re: Star Citizen - Lies, Ramblings, Jpegs, and Bullshit
« Reply #151 on: January 01, 2019, 01:50:20 PM »
Yes, that really is WOW! Since it means that Chris has been lying for years, there is no Squadron 42 and CIG would have been bankrupt already without the VC. Despite all the dollars raised resulting in over 200 million until today.

However, something is telling me this is not the point you tried to make  :emot-smuggo:

Putting aside all the 'puffing' by CIG and Chris Roberts, by the end of 2017, CIG brought in a total of $207 million and had spent $193 million since 2012. Capital on hand at the end of 2017 was $14 million from the prior year. So NO... CIG would not be bankrupt w/o the venture capital. 2018 was a record year in crowdfunding. Hell... CIG raised approximately $14,000,000 AFTER CitizenCon 2018 with its current 'proof of concept.'

Will some of the $46,000,000 be used to develop Squadron 42's current roadmap? Yes... but current crowdfunding is easily funding the monthly development costs. The majority will be used for marketing Squadron 42 - Episode 1 via television and other mass media venues. Just yesterday, CIG brought in over $100,000+. A lot of this from new Backers who are enjoying the current Alpha 3.4 version.

jham

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Re: Star Citizen - Lies, Ramblings, Jpegs, and Bullshit
« Reply #152 on: January 01, 2019, 01:58:51 PM »
Will some of the $46,000,000 be used to develop Squadron 42's current roadmap? Yes... but current crowdfunding is easily funding the monthly development costs. The majority will be used for marketing Squadron 42 - Episode 1 via television and other mass media venues.
Sure. They took in $46 mill months ago for marketing a game due out late 2020. Makes perfect sense.

Motto

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Re: Star Citizen - Lies, Ramblings, Jpegs, and Bullshit
« Reply #153 on: January 01, 2019, 03:14:42 PM »
Putting aside all the 'puffing' by CIG and Chris Roberts, by the end of 2017, CIG brought in a total of $207 million and had spent $193 million since 2012. Capital on hand at the end of 2017 was $14 million from the prior year. So NO... CIG would not be bankrupt w/o the venture capital. 2018 was a record year in crowdfunding. Hell... CIG raised approximately $14,000,000 AFTER CitizenCon 2018 with its current 'proof of concept.'

Will some of the $46,000,000 be used to develop Squadron 42's current roadmap? Yes... but current crowdfunding is easily funding the monthly development costs. The majority will be used for marketing Squadron 42 - Episode 1 via television and other mass media venues. Just yesterday, CIG brought in over $100,000+. A lot of this from new Backers who are enjoying the current Alpha 3.4 version.
Please don't tell me you actually think those published numbers are true and accurate? There just another kind of fancy JPG.

The only numbers I want to see from CIG are actual financial numbers that are backed by things like standard accounting reporting methods. Formal P&L statements. Balance sheets. Stuff like that. Tools and reports that are globally used and acknowledged by the industry. Not those fake jpgs that are supposed to show how fantastic CIG still is doing.

Spunky Munkee

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Re: Star Citizen - Lies, Ramblings, Jpegs, and Bullshit
« Reply #154 on: January 01, 2019, 07:18:05 PM »
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Re: Star Citizen - Lies, Ramblings, Jpegs, and Bullshit
Reply #151 on: Today at 01:50:20 PM
Quote
Quote from: Motto on December 21, 2018, 04:38:29 PM
Yes, that really is WOW! Since it means that Chris has been lying for years, there is no Squadron 42 and CIG would have been bankrupt already without the VC. Despite all the dollars raised resulting in over 200 million until today.

However, something is telling me this is not the point you tried to make  :emot-smuggo:

Putting aside all the 'puffing' by CIG and Chris Roberts, by the end of 2017, CIG brought in a total of $207 million and had spent $193 million since 2012. Capital on hand at the end of 2017 was $14 million from the prior year. So NO... CIG would not be bankrupt w/o the venture capital. 2018 was a record year in crowdfunding. Hell... CIG raised approximately $14,000,000 AFTER CitizenCon 2018 with its current 'proof of concept.'

Will some of the $46,000,000 be used to develop Squadron 42's current roadmap? Yes... but current crowdfunding is easily funding the monthly development costs. The majority will be used for marketing Squadron 42 - Episode 1 via television and other mass media venues. Just yesterday, CIG brought in over $100,000+. A lot of this from new Backers who are enjoying the current Alpha 3.4 version."


Truth be told Robbers had already secured several million dollars worth of investor capital previously, the Coutts loan was then secured in addition to these investors. Without that additional capital infusion they might have gone bankrupt or at the very least to oprevent teetering over the edge they would have had to lay off a good portion of the staff temporarily. These are facts and if you look at the tax filings for Britain you can glean these facts for yourself. This project was teetering on the edge of bankruptcy. Period. So Robbers needed the first group of investors to supply several million dollars, then the Coutts loans for which he lied claimig some dubious reasoni for securing them and now this large infusion of cash.

Clearly the large cash reserve Robbers claimed to have had seems to have vanished into thin air if it ever existed at all. He has violated all of his assurances to the backers. There is no transparency into the finances, the progress roadmaps were total fiction and any assurances regarding delivery dates were utter fabrications and have become the stuff of Memes. The TOS has been changed so many times I cannot count, always to strip the backers of their rights and to obsfugate any attempt at gaining a real idea of the state of the project as was promised to the backers. And now we learn that for years Robbers has taken investor capital as all of his claims of financail soplvency have been revealed to be lies of the first magnitude.

People should stop paying RObbers money. He has investors now who can supply him money for THEIR PROJECT. I find it amazing how people think of this as theirs. Nope. You may as well wipe your ass with it and burn it. His investors own the company but backers, you are owed exactly NOTHING. Not even a game is guaranteed.

And why? Piss poor managment with an out of date skillset and the mindset of a child. A fool who squanders Other Peoples Money with great zeal because all he has to do is nervously smile and stammer out some lies and the faithful band of jibbering idiots will empty their cookie jars for him. How sad.
« Last Edit: January 01, 2019, 07:32:28 PM by Spunky Munkee »

dsmart

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Re: Star Citizen - Lies, Ramblings, Jpegs, and Bullshit
« Reply #155 on: January 02, 2019, 04:43:07 AM »
Putting aside all the 'puffing' by CIG and Chris Roberts, by the end of 2017, CIG brought in a total of $207 million and had spent $193 million since 2012. Capital on hand at the end of 2017 was $14 million from the prior year. So NO... CIG would not be bankrupt w/o the venture capital. 2018 was a record year in crowdfunding. Hell... CIG raised approximately $14,000,000 AFTER CitizenCon 2018 with its current 'proof of concept.'

Oh OK. :emot-lol::emot-lol::emot-lol::emot-lol:

That's not how finance works. If you had $14M at the end of the current year, and you're burning $34M a year, it means your company is insolvent and is no longer a going concern.

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Yes... but current crowdfunding is easily funding the monthly development costs.


Cite your sources. Have you seen their 2018 financials? Because according to their released financial brochure, they were spending more than they were making. But somehow 2018 is different, right?

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The majority will be used for marketing Squadron 42 - Episode 1 via television and other mass media venues.


Cite your sources.Did croberts reveal his master plan and we missed it? Or are you believing the guy who has CONSISTENTLY LIED since day one?

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Just yesterday, CIG brought in over $100,000+.


And according to their financial brochure, it still won't be enough. I mean, they sold 10% of the company in May 2018, and never said a word about it until end of year.

Also, this is what Dec looks like for the past 4 years.

12/2015: $5.2M
12/2016: $3M
12/2017: $6M
12/2018: $5.2M

They raised more money in 2018 because of the lies about SQ42 and the failed promises on planetary tech. Not to mention that this year saw the most sales of any year in their history.

So the increase in funding had nothing to do with a growth curve, but more to do with their stepped up efforts to raise money because, as we now know, they were in dire financial straits this whole time. Just as I had been saying all along. Since they took out this $46M loan in May 2018, my guess is that if they ever release the 2018 numbers, we will probably see a darker picture than prior years. I mean, we now know why they stopped (just as I had warned for MONTHS in advance) doing legacy (more than 30 days) refunds in Dec 2017.

new[/u] Backers who are enjoying the current Alpha 3.4 version.]A lot of this from new Backers who are enjoying the current Alpha 3.4 version.

Cite your sources. Did CIG reveal stats on who new backers are? Also, where are these new backers who are "currently enjoying the current Alpha?"
Star Citizen isn't a game. It's a TV show about a bunch of characters making a game. It's basically "This is Spinal Tap" - except people think the band is real.

dsmart

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Re: Star Citizen - Lies, Ramblings, Jpegs, and Bullshit
« Reply #156 on: January 02, 2019, 04:45:15 AM »
Please don't tell me you actually think those published numbers are true and accurate? There just another kind of fancy JPG.

The only numbers I want to see from CIG are actual financial numbers that are backed by things like standard accounting reporting methods. Formal P&L statements. Balance sheets. Stuff like that. Tools and reports that are globally used and acknowledged by the industry. Not those fake jpgs that are supposed to show how fantastic CIG still is doing.

Yup. It's why most of us are calling it a financial "brochure", because a "statement" would imply that they released info that fits within standard accounting reporting. This is why I always use Elite Dangerous financials as comparison.
Star Citizen isn't a game. It's a TV show about a bunch of characters making a game. It's basically "This is Spinal Tap" - except people think the band is real.

dsmart

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Re: Star Citizen - Lies, Ramblings, Jpegs, and Bullshit
« Reply #157 on: January 02, 2019, 05:09:58 AM »
Truth be told Robbers had already secured several million dollars worth of investor capital previously, the Coutts loan was then secured in addition to these investors. Without that additional capital infusion they might have gone bankrupt or at the very least to oprevent teetering over the edge they would have had to lay off a good portion of the staff temporarily. These are facts and if you look at the tax filings for Britain you can glean these facts for yourself. This project was teetering on the edge of bankruptcy. Period. So Robbers needed the first group of investors to supply several million dollars, then the Coutts loans for which he lied claimig some dubious reasoni for securing them and now this large infusion of cash.

Facts don't matter. That's why they behave like a cult. They ignore facts and only listen to the leader's version of world view. I mean, forget about what I've been saying for YEARS, since I obviously can't be trusted to be unbiased (I tried to be at all times), but the FACTS are all there in plain sight.

The minute I found out about the Coutts loan from sources, I wrote a new blog in which I said the loan was a major Red flag. That was June 2017. Heck, the top section clearly said: THE STAR CITIZEN PROJECT IS IN FINANCIAL TROUBLE. This must have jolted CIG because in a rare move, it even got Ortwin out of his coffin to come out an issue a statement - which we now know to be spin-doctoring. They still haven't paid off the loan as of 2017 UK financials.

Now we find out in Dec 2018 that not only were they in financial dire straits in 2017, but that it was a lot worse than anyone ever thought. And by the end of that year, they were already looking for investors - as I had reported - and stopped legacy refunds the end of that year. And they only had $14M left end of that year. But that's according to them. We don't know anything about their accounts payable because they didn't disclose them. For all intent and purposes, they WERE INSOLVENT because even if you ignore everything and assume they were debt free (which of course isn't likely) at the end of of 2017, when you take into account the balance of the Coutts loan (which wasn't paid off in 2017), you see that the picture was a LOT WORSE and that having $14M in the bank is largely immaterial.

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Clearly the large cash reserve Robbers claimed to have had seems to have vanished into thin air if it ever existed at all.

Their own financials show that it never existed. If you look at the money they raised in Q4/17, compared to the $14M they had left end of that year, it's clear to see this.

Quote
He has violated all of his assurances to the backers. There is no transparency into the finances, the progress roadmaps were total fiction and any assurances regarding delivery dates were utter fabrications and have become the stuff of Memes. The TOS has been changed so many times I cannot count, always to strip the backers of their rights and to obsfugate any attempt at gaining a real idea of the state of the project as was promised to the backers. And now we learn that for years Robbers has taken investor capital as all of his claims of financail soplvency have been revealed to be lies of the first magnitude.

Facts don't matter. And that's how cults operate.

Quote
People should stop paying RObbers money. He has investors now who can supply him money for THEIR PROJECT. I find it amazing how people think of this as theirs. Nope. You may as well wipe your ass with it and burn it. His investors own the company but backers, you are owed exactly NOTHING. Not even a game is guaranteed.

That's how cults work. Common sense doesn't matter. And they will be this way right to the very collapse where they are stuck with a largely unplayable tech demo. I mean, even if you agree that only 50% of the 2M accounts are actually backers, at $200M raised, that only gives an average of $200 per unique backer. This is clear evidence that they have a few whales in the mix who keep buying up everything, regardless of merit. And THAT is why, even after raising all this money, and spending it foolishly, they were still operating in the Red. Which once again proves the other point I've been making: money is never - ever - going to solve their problems and produce a "game".

Quote
And why? Piss poor managment with an out of date skillset and the mindset of a child. A fool who squanders Other Peoples Money with great zeal because all he has to do is nervously smile and stammer out some lies and the faithful band of jibbering idiots will empty their cookie jars for him. How sad.

Well everything is fine - he already absolved himself of all responsibility, remember?
« Last Edit: January 02, 2019, 07:11:41 AM by dsmart »
Star Citizen isn't a game. It's a TV show about a bunch of characters making a game. It's basically "This is Spinal Tap" - except people think the band is real.

Slapmeandcallmegurl

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Re: Star Citizen - Lies, Ramblings, Jpegs, and Bullshit
« Reply #158 on: January 02, 2019, 06:12:23 AM »
So they're still not a going concern almost a year after we had a discussion about them not being a going concern? This company with tens of millions in the bank plus investment to the tune of forty eight million dolars, that just had a couple of months worth of sales that raised more tens of millions and will continue to have sales that raise millions over the course of the year, this company, still isn't a going concern?

Utterly ridiculous.

Motto

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Re: Star Citizen - Lies, Ramblings, Jpegs, and Bullshit
« Reply #159 on: January 02, 2019, 06:19:14 AM »
Yes, that you still can't (or won't) see the truth is utterly ridiculous.

Slapmeandcallmegurl

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Re: Star Citizen - Lies, Ramblings, Jpegs, and Bullshit
« Reply #160 on: January 02, 2019, 06:20:14 AM »
Sorry, I'm still laughing here. Investors gave a company that isn't a going concern nearly fifty million dollars...

This company, that has never, ever, used an overdraft, has millons in the bank and a business model that keeps on providing income, isn't a going concern?

Wow. Superbly, utterly and hilariously ridiculous.
« Last Edit: January 02, 2019, 06:23:22 AM by Slapmeandcallmegurl »

dsmart

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Re: Star Citizen - Lies, Ramblings, Jpegs, and Bullshit
« Reply #161 on: January 02, 2019, 07:16:15 AM »
So they're still not a going concern almost a year after we had a discussion about them not being a going concern?

https://www.investopedia.com/terms/g/goingconcern.asp <--- Be sure to read the WHOLE page

"Going concern is an accounting term for a company that has the resources needed to continue operating indefinitely until it provides evidence to the contrary. This term also refers to a company's ability to make enough money to stay afloat or avoid bankruptcy. If a business is not a going concern, it means it's gone bankrupt and its assets were liquidated. As an example, many dot-coms are no longer going concern companies after the tech bust in the late 1990s."

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This company with tens of millions in the bank

That's false.

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plus investment to the tune of forty eight million dolars,

That's not relevant.  Evidenced by their expenses vs income.

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that just had a couple of months worth of sales that raised more tens of millions and will continue to have sales that raise millions over the course of the year, this company, still isn't a going concern?

That's not relevant. Evidenced by the fact that they're spending more than they are making, then took out loans and additional investment to avoid insolvency and liquidation.
« Last Edit: January 02, 2019, 07:21:43 AM by dsmart »
Star Citizen isn't a game. It's a TV show about a bunch of characters making a game. It's basically "This is Spinal Tap" - except people think the band is real.

dsmart

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Re: Star Citizen - Lies, Ramblings, Jpegs, and Bullshit
« Reply #162 on: January 02, 2019, 07:20:32 AM »
Yes, that you still can't (or won't) see the truth is utterly ridiculous.

Don't forget that aside from it being pointless to even try, nobody is here to convince anyone (most especially our cult friends) of anything. The facts speak for themselves, and so we're just tendering opinions based on said facts. Attempting to change someone's world view is like convincing Trump supporters that he's an ass-clown, or that croberts is a scam artist out of his depths.
Star Citizen isn't a game. It's a TV show about a bunch of characters making a game. It's basically "This is Spinal Tap" - except people think the band is real.

dsmart

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Re: Star Citizen - Lies, Ramblings, Jpegs, and Bullshit
« Reply #163 on: January 02, 2019, 07:33:01 AM »
Sorry, I'm still laughing here. Investors gave a company that isn't a going concern nearly fifty million dollars...

Clearly you know nothing about how investment works. Also, you have zero insight as to what strings (aside from a babysitter, because ofc that's perfectly normal) came with the money.

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This company, that has never, ever, used an overdraft,

That's false - and you have zero evidence either way.

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has millons in the bank

That's being spent faster than they can earn it.

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and a business model that keeps on providing income

Not relevant. Companies can earn revenue right to the day they declare bankruptcy, are sold off etc. The latest game company in that predicament, was Trion Worlds (one of the largest MMO developers/publishers) which got bought out by gamigo this past Oct in an "assignment for the benefit of creditors" deal which is like bankruptcy without Red tape and delays. They had a list of COMPLETED AND WORKING games which were making money; but that didn't save them because their burn rate exceeded their income. And they had about 200 people across two studios.
Star Citizen isn't a game. It's a TV show about a bunch of characters making a game. It's basically "This is Spinal Tap" - except people think the band is real.

Slapmeandcallmegurl

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Re: Star Citizen - Lies, Ramblings, Jpegs, and Bullshit
« Reply #164 on: January 02, 2019, 07:34:41 AM »
https://www.investopedia.com/terms/g/goingconcern.asp <--- Be sure to read the WHOLE page

"Going concern is an accounting term for a company that has the resources needed to continue operating indefinitely until it provides evidence to the contrary. This term also refers to a company's ability to make enough money to stay afloat or avoid bankruptcy. If a business is not a going concern, it means it's gone bankrupt and its assets were liquidated. As an example, many dot-coms are no longer going concern companies after the tech bust in the late 1990s."

That's false.

That's not relevant.  Evidenced by their expenses vs income.

That's not relevant. Evidenced by the fact that they're spending more than they are making, then took out loans and additional investment to avoid insolvency and liquidation.

End of 2017 they had...oh I can't remember, was it seventeen million? They've lost around 5million for the last couple of years. Let's see then, some analytics maths. 17-5=12 million.

Then they received 48 million in investment. So me saying they have tens of millions isn't false at all. It's obvious and blatent fact. Have a go at adding 12 to 48 and see what number you come out with. Is it 'tens of millions'?

So, with around 60 million dollars in the bank and an annual operating profit of around minus 5 million, can they remain in business for another year?

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Conditions that lead to substantial doubt about a going concern include negative trends in operating results, continuous losses from one period to the next, loan defaults, lawsuits against a company and denial of credit by suppliers.

I read it to the end, (the page I linked originally back when my username was shorter), yet it still seems to indicate that CIG is obviously, easily and comfortably, a going concern.

The lawsuit is universally regarded now as becoming inconsequential, they just got massive investment and they haven't defaulted on any loans that we know of. They don't need credit because they've never used an overdraft and have always had cash on hand. They still do.

Admitting one was wrong is a sign of being a mature, adult human being.

 

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