Author Topic: Star Citizen General BS  (Read 780957 times)

Hater115

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Re: Star Citizen - The Game
« Reply #165 on: February 11, 2017, 11:08:42 PM »


You're missing some context.  The "oxygen" system CIG is claiming to have supposedly monitors O2 levels in the blood, respiration rates, simulate the entire biological effect on oxygen on living systems... it's all too ridiculous to go into here.  The end result is going to be an oxygen meter, and as Derek is pointing out, it can just go down when there's no air, back up when you change the tank, and so on.  There's no need to claim you're programming biology itself into the game if a meter does the same job, but this being CIG, that's exactly what they're doing.

Of course if it makes it into the game it'll be just a meter because that's what is sane.  But they'll say there are real calculations that go down to the mitochondria level of the man wearing the space suit, and backers will believe it.

I personally seem to remember that the main haul of the O2 system that they say that they were building was mainly "special" due to a variety of factors including rooms cycling O2 between each other. I know a bunch of their explanation of how things work are just an over complicated way of saying something simple, but I don't think they mentioned the O2 working like that. Look back to that 4 part ATV a couple months back for the O2 system in question (I believe it is, it might be the Citcon pre-atv thing also).
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Lir

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Re: Star Citizen - The Game
« Reply #166 on: February 12, 2017, 06:55:48 AM »
Whatever they say is bollox at this point. The whole lot of shit they claim they're developing or how they want that system to be simulated etc. Again they could as well say 'we're developing a game' or 'we're selling pizzas' it's the same. Chris Robert is the Trump of video game industry.

Scruffpuff

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Re: Star Citizen - The Game
« Reply #167 on: February 12, 2017, 07:01:17 AM »
I personally seem to remember that the main haul of the O2 system that they say that they were building was mainly "special" due to a variety of factors including rooms cycling O2 between each other. I know a bunch of their explanation of how things work are just an over complicated way of saying something simple, but I don't think they mentioned the O2 working like that. Look back to that 4 part ATV a couple months back for the O2 system in question (I believe it is, it might be the Citcon pre-atv thing also).

I spent some time looking for the exact quotes last night so I could include it in my post, but there is such an overwhelming amount of material to go through, and if you see enough of it, it's practically the Library of Babel of features and promises.  At any given time, Chris has said any given feature will be in Star Citizen, so it will be interesting to see what the MVP actually winds up being, if anything.

dsmart

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Re: Star Citizen - The Game
« Reply #168 on: February 12, 2017, 07:16:35 AM »
Why would you model O2 underwater if the player is already theoretically wearing some sort of high-pressure space suit that supports O2 support? I believe these things are kind of a waste of time to develop too but they have gone on record saying that they want to simulate the need of having O2 systems and power systems (making them a limited resource and all that), so it would make sense for them to make these systems different from yours. They are developing their systems the best way it would fit for them, not the best way it would fit for you.

You just made the same assumption you're accusing me of in that last sentence.

To answer your question. In my games, Oxygen in suits isn't infinite. Just like jetpack energy, vehicle and aircraft fuel resources, ammo etc. It's called resource management. Try playing some games that model this sort of thing.

Your inference that a high pressure space suit somehow negates Oxygen resource modeling, is an ignorant one. The two aren't the same thing.

There is nothing in the monthly report that leads anyone of sound mind and body, to believe that what they are describing is in any way, shape or form, "the best way it would fit for them". Even so, why would the current working model which they have for the suits and EVA, need to change? What does it add to the game to make it better, finished quicker etc? Nothing. It's all rubbish.

And every game in history that models any sort of resource management, does it in simplified form because at the end of the day, it's just a glorified meter; no different from a health meter, stamina, fatigue or stuff like that.

ps. LoD already models not only Oxygen, but also stamina, fatigue etc, all based on character type, weight of items carried etc. And it affects all forms of movement. It's not rocket science, and there's nothing revolutionary or ground breaking about it.



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Star Citizen isn't a game. It's a TV show about a bunch of characters making a game. It's basically "This is Spinal Tap" - except people think the band is real.

dsmart

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Re: Star Citizen - The Game
« Reply #169 on: February 12, 2017, 07:30:05 AM »
You're missing some context.  The "oxygen" system CIG is claiming to have supposedly monitors O2 levels in the blood, respiration rates, simulate the entire biological effect on oxygen on living systems... it's all too ridiculous to go into here.  The end result is going to be an oxygen meter, and as Derek is pointing out, it can just go down when there's no air, back up when you change the tank, and so on.  There's no need to claim you're programming biology itself into the game if a meter does the same job, but this being CIG, that's exactly what they're doing.

Of course if it makes it into the game it'll be just a meter because that's what is sane.  But they'll say there are real calculations that go down to the mitochondria level of the man wearing the space suit, and backers will believe it.

Precisely.

Heck, we have detection routines which determine if a player is in water, and if so whether their head is above or below the water level; at which time the Oxygen sensor kicks in. And when the suit's Oxygen is depleted, the air in their lungs - which is simply a variable - kicks in. They then have to get their head above water or die. And when above, they automatically take a deep breath which refills the lungs air variable, while the suit automatically refills with air.

All very simple math that takes less than a morning's work to implement and test.

We did this why? Because you can get shot down over water, and while you can swim and stay above water, you will want to go under water to avoid detection, being shot at etc. Plus we have naval vehicles - including a submersible - which you can exit in water, get shot out of etc. So we don't didn't do this on a whim, or just for bullet points in a feature list. And it's been this way since the first Universal Combat game - circa 2000 (1st game released in 2004).

Adding nonsensical features for the heck of it, is a sign of poor design, project management, and a project doomed to fail.



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Star Citizen isn't a game. It's a TV show about a bunch of characters making a game. It's basically "This is Spinal Tap" - except people think the band is real.

dsmart

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Re: Star Citizen - The Game
« Reply #170 on: February 13, 2017, 10:32:02 AM »
With planets on the 3.0 menu, I thought I'd catalog and bookmark this for future reference.

10 For The Chairman EP 78 (May 2016) in which the discussion about procedurally generated planets, takes center stage and an hilarious turn.

Still not here. And it's almost as if all of these were just R&D tech demos designed to show the non-existent progress on this front...

"Nyx Landing Zone Preview" (Aug 2015)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z2YMlnn4Ngk

"Pupil To Planet" (Dec 2015)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-yLTm8DZ8s4

"Seamless procedural planetary landing gameplay" (Dec 2015)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X5XSiww9ZO4

"Alpha 3.0 gamescom 2016 Gameplay" (Aug 2016)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C1wX1Kk3Ajg

"Procedural Planets v2" (Oct 2016)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pdCFTF8j7yI

...and that sandworm on a planet (Oct 2016)

https://youtu.be/XuDj5v81Nd0?t=5120
« Last Edit: February 13, 2017, 05:14:50 PM by dsmart »
Star Citizen isn't a game. It's a TV show about a bunch of characters making a game. It's basically "This is Spinal Tap" - except people think the band is real.

dsmart

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Re: Star Citizen - The Game
« Reply #171 on: February 13, 2017, 01:15:34 PM »
Remember that time in Aug 2016 when croberts said that 3.0 was coming in Dec, and definitely not on Dec 19th? Yup. I wrote about that on Dec 13.

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“..so, it’s our big end of the year release. er so er yeah, so we’re gonna get it out the end of the year; hopefully not on December 19th but, er, like last year….but it is a big one, so, not making er, I got shot for making promises, but er, that’s our goal.”



« Last Edit: February 13, 2017, 02:06:06 PM by dsmart »
Star Citizen isn't a game. It's a TV show about a bunch of characters making a game. It's basically "This is Spinal Tap" - except people think the band is real.

dsmart

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Re: Star Citizen - The Game
« Reply #172 on: February 17, 2017, 06:14:23 AM »
These guys really do think that they're going to be getting nvule1cD_zk[/youtube] player instances, inter-instance comms etc. Like seriously.
Star Citizen isn't a game. It's a TV show about a bunch of characters making a game. It's basically "This is Spinal Tap" - except people think the band is real.

dsmart

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Re: Star Citizen - The Game
« Reply #173 on: February 17, 2017, 12:51:29 PM »
I wrote a thing about instancing over at FDEV



It remains the Holy Grail for online connectivity in terms of twitch games. There is a reason that companies with vast resources, still rely on instanced game sessions - even MMOs.

The Planetside games which are twitch based and tout the largest number of clients in a session, still lagged - badly - when > 32 clients were in the general vicinity. And when they went for the GBWR record for the most clients connected to a session, it was unplayable. The record was about connectivity - not playability.

Eve Online - which isn't twitch based - literally invented a mass of software to host their game. And even so, when it's heavily populated in an area, they use time-dilated updates to keep every one in sync.

The only time that "1000 client instances" makes sense, is if they somehow - automagically solve the n+1 connectivity problem. Considering the clown shoes involved in the project, that's highly unlikely.  Again, we're in year 6 and they haven't progressed beyond standard networking in the original CryEngine. So there's that.

The thing with cloud servers like AWS & GCE is that you can do all kinds of nifty things. But they were never designed for the demands of twitch based games. That's why very few use them. Heck, even some of my friends working on games for Microsoft with Azure, are finding this out. See the upcoming Crackdown game.

Basically, you can't have "1000 client instances". What you can have are "1000 client sessions" via inter-instance communications. This - which is basically rocket science - means something like this:

i1(n+250) // instance + client count
i2(n+250)
i3(n+250)
i4(n+250)

Those are 4 are Amazon EC2 Dedicated Hosts running in Intel Xeon hardware server clusters. Also see the AMI requirement and what an EC2 is. You can also use the free tier to test your app before jumping off a cliff and actually doing it.

This is the part where panic mode sets in. See those instance types, bandwidth caps etc? Yeah.

Without getting technical, with my above example you have a situation whereby they have to create 4 (or more) instances (copies) of the game.

i1 goes live, then gradually fills up with clients. As it gets filled up, because AWS charges for BOTH in/out bandwidth, the more clients, the higher the costs. It's a lot scarier than that.

i2, i3, i4, all go live - same as above.

Nobody in i1 is going to see or interact with anyone in the other instances. Even if you imagine this being a walled off garden whereby i1-client1 is parked on the edge, he will never see i2-client1. They can't see, shoot, or interact with each other. For all intent and purposes they know nothing about each other.

In order to have "1000 client" instances, you need to have 1000 clients in an instance. Which would mean 1000 clients being able to connect and interact with each other in the above. It's IMPOSSIBLE. Period. End of story. And there isn't a single Xeon hardware server on AWS which would somehow automagically spawn an instance configured for 1000 clients in a twitch based game.

If you "stitch" the instances using clever tricks, such that you have 4 instances each with 250 clients, it's no longer "1000 client" instance, but rather a "1000 client" cluster. And in order to give the illusion of 1000 clients in the world, you have to somehow come up with inter- and intra- instance communications such that, using the walled garden example above, all clients within range can somehow see, chat, engage each other.

Well guess what? Now you're in alchemy territory. You now have an instance whereby i1-client1 fires a missile at i2-client1 and that missile travels through the i1 instance, reaches an area where it is destroyed and appears (re-created) at in i2 at the location of i2-client1 <---- that fool has probably already buggered off, died etc by the time the server code figures out that i1 just fired off a missile at a target in a remote instance which may or may no longer exist.

It gets better. That missile, along with all the calculations for i1-client1 and i2-client1, need to be calculated (God help you if you aren't using server-side arbitration - which by SC isn't using) on-the-fly and in real-time. All the time. Think of the bandwidth.

Now multiply the horrendous notion above to n+1 for a set of clients.

Then plan to be on vacation when the AWS bill shows up for that month.

Here's the hilarious part. Instead of planning to build this from the start, much like Frontier did, they decided to just wing it. And now, six years later, they're still stuck with the basic CryEngine networking layer.

What is even more hilarious is that - right from the start - Chris (it's in the Kickstarter, interviews etc) claimed he wasn't making an MMO. Then, out of the Blue, he was. Suspiciously that was after it dawned on them that they would make more money by selling the entire Verse as an MMO through the sale of assets. They would never - ever - have been able to raise this much money for a single player or session based game. But the fact is, assuming they deliver (which imo they won't) both of these games, the multiplayer is going to remain as it is now. A session based instanced game which will need a witch doctor to get it to handle more than 16 (let alone 1000) clients in combat.

Further reading to see how experts who thought long and hard about this before designing it; but still ended up with a less-than stellar solution to a massive problem:

VERY basic guide for ED networking

AWS re:Invent 2015 | (GAM403) From 0 to 60 Million Player Hours in 400B Star Systems

This is why most of who do this stuff for a living, and with decades under our belt, simply can't fathom how they could possibly be making these FALSE statements. Especially when you consider that when this whole thing collapses, and the lawsuits start flying, these are the sort of statements that are going to end up coming back to haunt them.



Quote
hairychris;5166795]I still have no idea how 1000+ will be technically possible, but I know sod-all about game development.

And that quoted statement doesn't make a huge amount of sense, unless they're having instances ("servers") within instances ("instances") in which case it's still instanced, just called something different.

It's all rubbish tbh.

An "instance" is just a copy of the entire game. It came to be when describing a single server (hardware) running multiple copies (instances). Even a single server running a single copy of the game, is a "dedicated server instance"

And cloud servers are no different, except a GCE|AWS instance is just a software copy running on hardware servers and with no access to physical machines.

e.g. LoD runs only on hardware servers (co-lo at a data center). And we run separate "scenes" (aka levels) each with the ability to handle 1-256 clients. Each server is powerful enough to handle multiple scenes. So we can run either n+1 space scenes on a server or just 1. In short, the hw server is hosting the instances.

And the way it's all connected is based on architecture we built specifically so that we could control the number of clients in each scene. So if a scene has a client cap (which is server-side configured), no more clients can connect to it until one client drops or leaves. And all scenes are connected in such a way that it all appears as one universe (though it's just 13 connected scenes stitched together with magic). A player going from a space scene on one server to a planetary scene on another server, doesn't notice anything, as it's just an IP connection via a jump gate. And during the jump handshake, if the target server is full or off-line, the connection is rejected, you get a message - and you stay were you are and try again later.

Also, a single hw server runs a number of scene instances depending on their resource requirement e.g. space scenes don't have as much stuff as planets; so we can run 2-4 space scenes on 1 server, while running 1-2 planetary scenes on another server. Our scenes are of 3 types. space (x4), planet (x4), interiors station|capital ship (x5).

There is no gain to having 1000 clients in an instance if the performance is just going to suffer, thus yielding a horrid experience for gamers. And even if you did it, the bandwidth costs alone - especially on cloud instances - would be cost prohibitive.

When running based on an architecture like ours, not only do you get around the n+1 client issue, but player-player comms is a non-issue because it's all one universe. You can be in a scene instance (e.g. space) and communicate with someone in another instance (e.g. planet). Sure, you won't see them due to distance and location, but you can still communicate with them. And if by some fluke a 256 scene instance ends up being full, unless all of them are within a certain range bubble, the packets are priorititized based on proximity.

And we don't have the problem of "grouping with friends" because it's all one cohesive universe. No matter where or when you connect, you will always find your friends; and can join them as long as the scene they are on isn't pop-locked.

A small team of renegade indies, led by a semi-retired mad man, built this. In a span of under two years. And it just works. To the extent that, if you look at our changelog, we haven't messed with networking in over three years. And never underestimate the power of AI bot clients to use for load balancing and testing.
« Last Edit: February 17, 2017, 06:38:44 PM by dsmart »
Star Citizen isn't a game. It's a TV show about a bunch of characters making a game. It's basically "This is Spinal Tap" - except people think the band is real.

Stan

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Re: Star Citizen - The Game
« Reply #174 on: February 17, 2017, 10:57:06 PM »
Derek,

I am not a developer.

Given that CR was out of the industry for ten years and (I assume) wasn't developing MMOs himself when he last was, what process would he reasonably have gone through to come up with the fantasy set up you describe above ?

Most players with experience of MMOs would know from personal experience playing them that what CR is selling is a huge technical challenge, and as you say, if he'd spoken to a few honest up to date MMO developers when he was thinking about SC, they would surely have told him the limitations of what was currently possible.

It is difficult not to come to the conclusion CR knew all along he couldn't deliver all these concurrent players in one instance (or disguise it to look like it was happening).

He would also have known new technology wasn't going to appear in time to solve the problem for this game.
« Last Edit: February 17, 2017, 10:59:32 PM by Stan »

dsmart

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Re: Star Citizen - The Game
« Reply #175 on: February 18, 2017, 08:55:50 AM »
Derek,

I am not a developer.

Given that CR was out of the industry for ten years and (I assume) wasn't developing MMOs himself when he last was, what process would he reasonably have gone through to come up with the fantasy set up you describe above ?

Most players with experience of MMOs would know from personal experience playing them that what CR is selling is a huge technical challenge, and as you say, if he'd spoken to a few honest up to date MMO developers when he was thinking about SC, they would surely have told him the limitations of what was currently possible.

It is difficult not to come to the conclusion CR knew all along he couldn't deliver all these concurrent players in one instance (or disguise it to look like it was happening).

He would also have known new technology wasn't going to appear in time to solve the problem for this game.

He's not a developer on the game, writes no code etc. So most of this boils down to him either blatantly lying about what his devs told him, or he simply doesn't understand what they're telling him. I simply refuse to believe that devs have told him that they could have "1000 player instances". Then of course, his brother and cohort, Erin, just basically repeated the same thing. So they're being complicit and continue to lie to backers. But guess what? None of this matters as I'm certain that they don't believe that they will be around long enough for them to actually do any of what they're claiming. It's a scam. Pure and simple.
Star Citizen isn't a game. It's a TV show about a bunch of characters making a game. It's basically "This is Spinal Tap" - except people think the band is real.

Stan

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Re: Star Citizen - The Game
« Reply #176 on: February 18, 2017, 10:09:04 PM »
So if these gets into court, they would have to answer questions about how they reasonably believed this was viable ?

dsmart

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Re: Star Citizen - The Game
« Reply #177 on: February 19, 2017, 06:34:34 AM »
So if these gets into court, they would have to answer questions about how they reasonably believed this was viable ?

Yes. They would be in a deposition under oath and they would have to explain how on Earth they ever thought it was possible. Worse for them? They have to show evidence that what they were touting was actually possible, done before, what work they did to move toward that goal etc. That's why the FTC ends up nailing so many companies for false advertising and consumer fraud.
Star Citizen isn't a game. It's a TV show about a bunch of characters making a game. It's basically "This is Spinal Tap" - except people think the band is real.

dsmart

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Re: Star Citizen - The Game
« Reply #178 on: February 19, 2017, 06:37:10 AM »
Meanwhile, even more stock footage has been found in the latest concept ship image. Seriously, this isn't even funny anymore.







this:



https://www.shutterstock.com/image-vector/seamless-children-cartoon-space-pattern-rockets-278602232





UPDATE:

Someone on SA noticed something else here:



I don't know if it was mentioned, but I'm pretty sure they did steal it.





If you look closely the cloud that's covered by the watermark is different from the second one while on the bed sheet the two clouds are the same. Several of the stars around the watermark are missing and a larger star has been added beneath Uranus.
« Last Edit: February 21, 2017, 12:20:24 PM by dsmart »
Star Citizen isn't a game. It's a TV show about a bunch of characters making a game. It's basically "This is Spinal Tap" - except people think the band is real.

nightfire

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Re: Star Citizen - The Game
« Reply #179 on: February 20, 2017, 04:31:21 AM »
Meanwhile, even more stock footage has been found in the latest concept ship image. Seriously, this isn't even funny anymore.
The expensive ships may be feared for their speed and firepower, but their battle-hardened crew sleeps in kiddy blankets for 10-year olds. What a strange 'Verse.

 

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