Author Topic: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.  (Read 713458 times)

Ghostmaker

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Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
« Reply #525 on: May 04, 2017, 11:01:36 AM »
See, what I find hilarious is the obsession they have with Derek Smart. Like he's somehow delaying the full release of Star Citizen through his nefarious... um... technological terrors and atomic powered scooters. Or something.  :psyduck:

If Dr. Smart keeled over dead tomorrow, it would not change the fact that this game is not in a release state.

I wonder what other games and devs could do with $150 million. Besides piss it away.


dsmart

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Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
« Reply #526 on: May 04, 2017, 11:03:57 AM »
Yeah, I have been following that. Notice how neither Sandi (who is responsible for marketing) nor Chris (who is the creator) stepped in front of it. Instead, they pawned it off to the most toxic person on the project and who has since taken a back seat since last year. All of a sudden, he's the meat barrier because the best way to deal with a toxic community, is to have your contract staff toxic member, step in front of it. Makes sense.

When I wrote my missive about the referral program when it was rolled out, I knew they would just ignore it because they do that when controversy erupts, and they basically ignore backers.

I mean, read this shit (source)

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Hey everybody,

I wanted to stop in and talk about some of the referral program feedback we’ve been seeing. I apologize for resurrecting your thread, but it seemed like a good place to share all of this. We wanted to take a few days to think things through and make sure we understand your feelings, and I think we’ve made some good progress.

The most important feedback to me is the concern over the new player experience. There’s a strong feeling that we should not be pushing new players into the game without a support network. Frankly, hearing that issue come up so much makes us very happy... because it reminds us that you care about Star Citizen in exactly the same way we do. It was heartening to see that so much of the reaction wasn’t about winning prizes or the space cat but about making sure everything is right before you share the world you helped build with your friends.

And that feedback is 100% correct. We often forget that the Citizens who make up the community today are a hardy bunch who have been through the fire of game development the same way we have. So we are on it! As you’ve already heard, we’re moving around some resources to support a new player initiative. That will take the form of additional video tutorials and beginner content to help bring people who haven’t been following us for so long into the ‘verse, and we’ve also passed your feedback on to the development side for their consideration.

Another big issue we’ve found is what has come across as the... I’d say urgency of the contest. Why such a push right now? That question has a few answers, and I’d like to talk about them. First of all, you are absolutely correct that we want new Citizens to join the game. But I know this has been categorized as a kind of ‘cash grab,’ and I want to add that I don’t think that’s the spirit of the thing at all. Why? Because we aren’t buying rocket cars and moon boots... we’re putting all that money back into your game. The more backers we bring in, the more staff we hire and the more we can do with the game. And that’s the dream we’ve been chasing, the one you’ve made possible: a game ruled by ideas that fights as hard as it can to always do better instead of being good enough. We try hard to make our marketing fun and immersive and part of the experience... so sometimes the sheer necessity gets lost. Every time we sell the game, development gets better. And there’s nothing else like that in the world.

That said, we agree with you that it does feel too TOO urgent. There are people who want the space bike who can’t imagine earning it in three months, there are people who want to wait until 3.0 to introduce their friends so they’ll see Star Citizen really shine... and we very much respect that. As a result, we’re going to be making some changes to the ladder, especially to add some more lower tier rewards for longtime supporters but also to give you more of a chance to get the unique items from the contest. Stay tuned for an announcement, and just don’t worry that you need to beg everyone to earn you a Dragonfly today!

Finally, I want to say a few words about the idea of recognizing referral program members. Another critique—a less common one, for sure, but still important—is that the contest rollout unfairly highlighted folks who have been referring since earlier days. Our feeling on this is twofold: one, yes we can absolutely see how that is the case... but two, we feel very strongly that backers who have been with us since the beginning and who have put so much effort into supporting the game, introducing new players and making the experience better for everyone SHOULD get a moment in the sun. If I could put every single person who has been part of the community all this time on AtV I would... but to my mind, it only makes sense that people who have given their blood, sweat and time to our dream should be honored. After all, one of the most wonderful things about Star Citizen is that every one of these people is just like you. Anyone can pick up an Aurora, anyone can stream the game, anyone can share the adventure... and we want the people that to do know how much we appreciate them.

I will close by thanking you for the feedback and also encouraging you to continue. What have I missed? What else do you need to know? I would also personally be very interested to know what you would like to see in a ladder update and what you’d like to see with regards to new player orientation. Anyone who tells you that this kind of criticism is bad or trouble or should be stifled is wrong; hearing from you in this (and everything) works exactly like supporting the game: it makes everything better. I’ll be reading!

Ben

This comment (source) from AstroPub, one of their streamers is amazing. They are all fed up apparently.

Quote
I hate the whole 'I'm a long time backer and love the game" bullshit because no one should have to grovel before a developer before making their point. I shouldn't have to prove my worth to the project before being critical.

That aside reading over Ben's latest response to the community feedback on their referral contest I have to say it seems CIG has totally missed the point of the backlash. From what I have gathered from others, as well as my own feelings, is that the community doesn't want the following aspects of the referral program.

1) It is not intended for everyone, mostly for high profile backers and content creators who may not be in the community to as an incentive to promote the game.

2)It is being pushed at a point where the game itself is not friendly to players who are not accustomed to the nature of the slow burn alpha game development. This is heightened by the fact that there is no NPE because the one they had was taken down at the request of the community for being broken and out of date.

3)The entire system is being put in place to early, the level of rewards program they have now is usually reserved for a near complete or totally complete game.

Now reading through Ben's post on spectrum it seems like CIG only picked up on the part I bolded. Now this is makes CIG look desperate for money, which doesn't help anyone at this point. There is a conversation to be had about the referral system but what CIG seems to be doing is taking the one thing they think they can fix that people are complaining about and keep the system.
EDIT: I guess I will make a bullet pointed response since people think it's just me hating the referral system with personal bias. So here it goes,

I am a streamer, partnered with twitch, well over 15 referrals and not really caring about the referral system, to the point where I have given out my mods referrals rather than my own. I have seen many people react negatively to the point where I believe CIG's response is inadequate to address those concerns.

It is not intended for everyone, mostly for high profile backers and content creators who may not be in the community to as an incentive to promote the game.

Bens response to this was.

Quote
Another critique—a less common one, for sure, but still important—is that the contest rollout unfairly highlighted folks who have been referring since earlier days. Our feeling on this is twofold: one, yes we can absolutely see how that is the case... but two, we feel very strongly that backers who have been with us since the beginning and who have put so much effort into supporting the game, introducing new players and making the experience better for everyone SHOULD get a moment in the sun. If I could put every single person who has been part of the community all this time on AtV I would... but to my mind, it only makes sense that people who have given their blood, sweat and time to our dream should be honored. After all, one of the most wonderful things about Star Citizen is that every one of these people is just like you. Anyone can pick up an Aurora, anyone can stream the game, anyone can share the adventure... and we want the people that to do know how much we appreciate them.
...As a result, we’re going to be making some changes to the ladder, especially to add some more lower tier rewards for longtime supporters but also to give you more of a chance to get the unique items from the contest...

This was just an explanation of why they did it. Not addressing the concern that content creators would over sell the game to get monetary compensation. This isn't addressed at all. While having a smaller ladder is nice it still doesn't really address the issue that this "isn't a contest for everyone" but was advertised as such.

It is being pushed at a point where the game itself is not friendly to players who are not accustomed to the nature of the slow burn alpha game development. This is heightened by the fact that there is no NPE because the one they had was taken down at the request of the community for being broken and out of date.

Quote
Another big issue we’ve found is what has come across as the... I’d say urgency of the contest. Why such a push right now? That question has a few answers, and I’d like to talk about them. First of all, you are absolutely correct that we want new Citizens to join the game. But I know this has been categorized as a kind of ‘cash grab,’ and I want to add that I don’t think that’s the spirit of the thing at all. Why? Because we aren’t buying rocket cars and moon boots... we’re putting all that money back into your game. The more backers we bring in, the more staff we hire and the more we can do with the game. And that’s the dream we’ve been chasing, the one you’ve made possible: a game ruled by ideas that fights as hard as it can to always do better instead of being good enough. We try hard to make our marketing fun and immersive and part of the experience... so sometimes the sheer necessity gets lost. Every time we sell the game, development gets better. And there’s nothing else like that in the world.

While this is a nice platitude it doesn't address the core issue that was brought up that the game isn't in a state friendly for new people to get in. The game doesn't grow when someone gets an Aurora, gets frustrated because they were oversold by an exuberant backer looking to get some sweet swag, and then grows negative on the project. This isn't a 'possible' outcome, its a lesson from the last 3 years before we even had the referral program. Plenty of people have burned out and grown negative after such a long project and mentioning the flaws doesn't sell copies. This is a short sighted platitude which harms the community at large, this is not just my opinion but was expressed by many in the community.

Quote
The most important feedback to me is the concern over the new player experience. There’s a strong feeling that we should not be pushing new players into the game without a support network. Frankly, hearing that issue come up so much makes us very happy... because it reminds us that you care about Star Citizen in exactly the same way we do. It was heartening to see that so much of the reaction wasn’t about winning prizes or the space cat but about making sure everything is right before you share the world you helped build with your friends.

This was one of the few things I agree with but I feel like the community doesn't. As has been expressed by the community there is a desire that they shouldn't be wasting resources on NPE before the game should be sold to people who haven't been researching the game. This returns to the point that selling the game right now is not in the interest of the community because we don't want to deal with the negative response.

The entire system is being put in place to early, the level of rewards program they have now is usually reserved for a near complete or totally complete game.

This is partially responded to but it's focus was on the NPE and not the fact that the system was far to ahead of it's time.

I can not speak for the community but it seems rather obvious that the system they have created doesn't work, and if they want their backers to continue to promote their game they need to engage us in conversation and not try to rail road systems that are destined to create more bitter, confused, and angry backers. However the community needs to keep in mind the referral system was created because of backers requesting it's creation.

So in that spirit I ask you, what do you think CIG could do for a referral system? How can the community help promote the game with CIG's help at the games current status?



Meanwhile, over on SA.., someone else made a pretty strong case:

He starts off his little shit piece by stating:

Quote
The most important feedback to me is the concern over the new player experience. There’s a strong feeling that we should not be pushing new players into the game without a support network.


But then CIG's official answer to this feedback is not to stop and wait until the game is (more) done, but to:

Quote
we’re moving around some resources to support a new player initiative.

Instead of, you know, actually fucking finishing the game, first.

Then Ben goes for the big question on everybody's mind:

Quote
Another big issue we’ve found is what has come across as the... I’d say urgency of the contest. Why such a push right now? That question has a few answers, and I’d like to talk about them.


Oh boy, I can't fucking wait.

Quote
First of all, you are absolutely correct that we want new Citizens to join the game. But I know this has been categorized as a kind of ‘cash grab,’ and I want to add that I don’t think that’s the spirit of the thing at all. Why? Because we aren’t buying rocket cars and moon boots... we’re putting all that money back into your game.

What a strawman question-and-response!! Ben misinterprets "cash grab" to mean "Croberts wants a new boat" instead of "Croberts desperately needs more cash to finish the game he has bungled and grossly mismanaged."


But wait, I think Ben let slip a little truth in the next little bit...

Quote
The more backers we bring in, the more staff we hire and the more we can do with the game. And that’s the dream we’ve been chasing, the one you’ve made possible: a game ruled by ideas that fights as hard as it can to always do better instead of being good enough. We try hard to make our marketing fun and immersive and part of the experience... so sometimes the sheer necessity gets lost. Every time we sell the game, development gets better. And there’s nothing else like that in the world.

Let's break this one down. They currently have 438 or so staff by their admission. The game's feature set is not supposed to be growing anymore (no more stretch goals). If those two facts are the case, why do they need more money to "hire staff" to "do more with the game?" Why don't you have everything you already need?

But then the best line in this quote comes: Every time we sell the game, development gets better. Really, Ben? Really? How does development get better with more money if you had enough money to finish the game with the features you have already promised? And there it is... the admission. Translated, this statement means: Every time we sell the game, development continues.

I submit this is more damning than Croberts "we can finish SQ42 with the cash we have and use the sales to fund Star Citizen" quote from back in January. Because, based upon statements made in connection with the 3.0 schedule, SQ42 is so tied to the same technology they can't get working for Star Citizen, they have fucked themselves and their backers.

The game is doomed unless they harpoon some new whales. Good luck, fuckers.
« Last Edit: May 04, 2017, 11:21:11 AM by dsmart »
Star Citizen isn't a game. It's a TV show about a bunch of characters making a game. It's basically "This is Spinal Tap" - except people think the band is real.

Narrenbart

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Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
« Reply #527 on: May 04, 2017, 03:58:05 PM »
Other devs are feared of the wrath of this community, though I live on a mountain in germany but this won't hold them back to raise their voice against you and all your projects ... and not every dev can afford this backlash no matter why ...

So I am thankful of DSM to do the dirty work :)

dsmart

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Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
« Reply #528 on: May 05, 2017, 06:25:53 AM »
Other devs are feared of the wrath of this community, though I live on a mountain in germany but this won't hold them back to raise their voice against you and all your projects ... and not every dev can afford this backlash no matter why ...

So I am thankful of DSM to do the dirty work :)

Yeah. Plus the industry isn't that big when it comes to talent. People move around quite a bit. So you never know where you are going to end up working next, or who you are likely to meet again.
Star Citizen isn't a game. It's a TV show about a bunch of characters making a game. It's basically "This is Spinal Tap" - except people think the band is real.

Phraccy

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Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
« Reply #529 on: May 12, 2017, 12:21:49 AM »
@dsmart Hello Dr. Smart,

just got pointed to your yesterdays tweets about SC's financial situation from one of OldSchoolCmdr's posts. Do you think we will see/hear something from CIG about this soon? After all, if no one comes to their rescue in the next 90 days they would have to go public anyway I'm guessing?
Wouldn't this affect their planned E3 booth as well? At least I think something was planned, read about E3 some months ago over at SA but to tell the truth, haven't heard anything from CIG about anything planned.
What also strikes me as odd is, while they announced that they would be at Gamescom they haven't lost a word about their biggest in-house convention (CitCon) in Frankfurt.

Anyway, any more info you can share with us?

Keep it up!

StanTheMan

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Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
« Reply #530 on: May 12, 2017, 03:12:06 AM »
If they were very close to (realising/accepting) they are going down I think we would see some higher risk money grabs from Backers.

Someone suggested they would start selling ground installations for example.

But that wouldn't be the end of it. 

When they send a begging letter explaining that they need more funds or they go belly up ...that's when they are really desperate.

dsmart

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Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
« Reply #531 on: May 12, 2017, 07:08:58 AM »
@dsmart Hello Dr. Smart,

just got pointed to your yesterdays tweets about SC's financial situation from one of OldSchoolCmdr's posts. Do you think we will see/hear something from CIG about this soon? After all, if no one comes to their rescue in the next 90 days they would have to go public anyway I'm guessing?
Wouldn't this affect their planned E3 booth as well? At least I think something was planned, read about E3 some months ago over at SA but to tell the truth, haven't heard anything from CIG about anything planned.
What also strikes me as odd is, while they announced that they would be at Gamescom they haven't lost a word about their biggest in-house convention (CitCon) in Frankfurt.

Anyway, any more info you can share with us?

Keep it up!

I don't believe that there will be any statement about financials coming from them, as that would be admitting failure. Chris may write one of his newsletters or something.

As to the conventions, we have E3, GamesCon, CitizenCon. I don't recall when they announced CitizenCon last year, but I will look into it.
Star Citizen isn't a game. It's a TV show about a bunch of characters making a game. It's basically "This is Spinal Tap" - except people think the band is real.

dsmart

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Star Citizen isn't a game. It's a TV show about a bunch of characters making a game. It's basically "This is Spinal Tap" - except people think the band is real.

Motto

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Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
« Reply #533 on: May 18, 2017, 07:02:42 AM »
So I called the local Domino's and NY Pizza overhere, but neither of them had ever heard of a refactored pizza with fidelity and extra Sandi topping. Weird  :confused:

dsmart

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Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
« Reply #534 on: May 18, 2017, 07:31:51 AM »
So I called the local Domino's and NY Pizza overhere, but neither of them had ever heard of a refactored pizza with fidelity and extra Sandi topping. Weird  :confused:

Try Papa John's  :laugh:
Star Citizen isn't a game. It's a TV show about a bunch of characters making a game. It's basically "This is Spinal Tap" - except people think the band is real.

Ghostmaker

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Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
« Reply #535 on: May 18, 2017, 10:31:43 AM »
I prefer Papa Murphy's, actually. Yeah, I have to bake it myself, but their pizza is excellent. :effortless:

Rogerio

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Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
« Reply #536 on: May 18, 2017, 03:18:16 PM »
The best Star Citizen development hell analogy to date.


BDSCAE - Best Damn Scam Citizen Analogy Ever!

Seriously, this should be pinned on the SC refunds reddit. Very well written and explained.

Made me giggle, Derek, thanks! :)
« Last Edit: May 18, 2017, 04:25:03 PM by dsmart »

Narrenbart

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Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
« Reply #537 on: May 19, 2017, 08:21:58 AM »
https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/comments/6c37c3/from_the_recent_atv_this_is_one_of_the_coolest/

Yeah CIG invented it ... Volumetric Lights, a projector and millions of particles for the steam to react on the projector/lightning.
OK Borderlands has a similiar effekt (that looks better IMO), but the question is now those particle effects ... they have to be shared over the network for other people to see them ... well at least it will be an particle on/particle off communication.
On top of the particle effects, put a few players in the room that interact ...

------------

This is the one thing why I literally start to hate this company ... they are showing off cool things that you are trying in the editor when you are bored just to test out if it works, but most of them are way to expensive for a game (not talking about a MMO here) and will never see the light of a release in the end. On top of that often they say that they've invented them ... Stuff we are using for years ...
Tech Demos on every Show/ATV just to hype more and more.

One Game to hype them all, One Game to milk them,
One Game to bring them all, and in the TechDemo bind them,
In the Land of Roberts where the ($)millions die.

Mic Drop - gone puking

Flashwit

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Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
« Reply #538 on: May 19, 2017, 09:08:45 AM »
I doubt it would have anything beyond negligible network effects. I don't imagine they'll be doing anything with this that will have an effect on gameplay so it can just be done locally.

kirin-rex

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Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
« Reply #539 on: May 19, 2017, 03:49:03 PM »
Okay, that analogy about pizza is freaking brilliant.

The only thing it lacks is that rather than paying $20 for the pizza (the price of Big Pizza's pizza), people have thrown down $40, $100, $400, even $4000 in the hope of having a bit more cheese or (non-existent) pepperoni on their pizza.

 

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