Author Topic: Star Citizen General BS  (Read 1078828 times)

the_wolfmann

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Re: Star Citizen - The Game
« Reply #990 on: September 02, 2017, 02:44:35 AM »
My impression is that game development has the worst standards of software engineering. Which is understandable. Video games are not "mission-critical". If your product crashes, at most someone gets upset, but no planes fall out of the sky and no million-dollar factory stops manufacturing. OTOH "pushing the limits" (esp. performance) is key, so having correct programs without "hacky" shortcuts is less of a priority.

Talent-wise I see some negative selection bias due to the working conditions in the industry. Everyone who can applies elsewhere, only doing grunt coding work at EA & Co as a last resort. The only people who seem to get actually paid well are the voice-actors for some reason.

In the end it all boils down to cost: proper QA costs money, while the video game media don't care much about software quality. Fancy graphics are more important. Star Citizen is a perfect example.

Thank you and Dr. Smart for your replies. I had a running suspicion that it would be considered a "waste" to allocate resources for code-based testing in the gaming industry. However, the smart choice for a project like Star Citizen which touts to be a 10-year running MMO with constant updates is to not cut corners on practices that will help them out in the long term. This to me means that if there ever is going to be a game (which I'm most sure there won't) it will be a crappy bug fest after each subsequent patch up to a point where updating becomes impossible. Heck, even right now the project exhibits troubling signs that it has entered "maintenance" mode due to it severe technical debt accrued over the hefty CryEngine core rewrite and Lumberyard switch. But I digress, better have the fanciest graphics this side of the 'verse than have an actual stable and fun to play game, right?

FredBloggs

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Re: Star Citizen - The Game
« Reply #991 on: September 02, 2017, 03:26:29 AM »
[offtopic but funny]

There's a new game out that would appeal to Star Citizens:

https://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2017/09/01/cultist-simulator-kickstarter/

dsmart

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Re: Star Citizen - The Game
« Reply #992 on: September 02, 2017, 04:41:58 AM »
So what do we think CR's, 'dont show the loading screen', was about? What could possibly have been unshowable on a convention only build, loading screen?

I'm intrigued.

Why don't you ask the guy we gave $160M to? It's interesting how nobody on Reddit or Spectrum is asking this question. I've reached out to one of my sources who should know. I will post when I hear back.

But my money is on the fact that they were running a special GC2017 build which doesn't have the normal loading screen that backers would recognize. In fact, it was already proven that they did in fact have a specific build at GC2017. So it could be that it was just a standard hacked CryEngine level like what they were streaming during the show, and not the whole 3.0 build. Which explains why they didn't want to show the loading screen, you can start from Levski etc.

It's curious to me that they didn't start from Olisar, get a ship, fly to Levksi, then start the mission there.
« Last Edit: September 02, 2017, 04:53:47 AM by dsmart »
Star Citizen isn't a game. It's a TV show about a bunch of characters making a game. It's basically "This is Spinal Tap" - except people think the band is real.

helimoth

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Re: Star Citizen - The Game
« Reply #993 on: September 02, 2017, 04:44:39 AM »
Sounds so open and transparent.

dsmart

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Re: Star Citizen - The Game
« Reply #994 on: September 02, 2017, 04:46:15 AM »
I've disagreed with Derek Smart plenty in the past. And I think he is too invested in seeing himself right. I've objected to the use of the word "scam" for example because that implies a degree of dishonesty which I do not believe is present. I think CIG are working hard to make the BDSSE.

BUT - just because I don't believe it is a scam doesn't mean I don't think that CIG are skewing the development priorities to maximise their current money flow. Hence, the focus is more on pushing ship sales and hyping up cosmetic features and technologies rather than game development.

Right. But that's what makes it a scam.  :smug:

Also, dishonesty, as you know, comes in all forms. Yes, they've been dishonest. That being the case, how far a stretch is it for them to have been dishonest to the point of encroaching on activities which give rise to it being a scam? This is why in all legal cases, attorneys tend to look for things like prior conduct, past actions etc in order to establish a pattern that points to the accused being capable of doing/saying what they were accused of.

I stand by my opinion that they're actively running a scam. And I know, without reservation, that it will all come to light soon enough.
Star Citizen isn't a game. It's a TV show about a bunch of characters making a game. It's basically "This is Spinal Tap" - except people think the band is real.

Kyrt

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Re: Star Citizen - The Game
« Reply #995 on: September 02, 2017, 05:18:59 AM »
Right. But that's what makes it a scam.  :smug:

They are taking money, in the form of pre-orders, and using that money to develop a game.

You can argue that they are being "dishonest" to be the point of scamming people, but then a lot of what they are doing is simple marketing and PR.
The key point for me is first - are they developing a game? and second - will the game be released?

I think progress on the game is slow. But from what you and others have said, that seems more due to negligence and incompetence on the part of certain members of CIG. We have feature creep, and changed specifications. We have the choice of an engine that strikes me as totally unsuited for the game they want and which required and requires so much modification that they may as well have taken the smart route and just developed their own engine from the start - just like Hello Games did. We have years of work which were thrown out because of "communications issues" between CIG and third party developers.

I don't see any need to attribute to criminality what can be explained away by incompetence and bad management. It means that yes - technically the game has been in development since 2011. Six years now - yes, I DO count that year of pre-production as part of the timescale. But that six years is only equivalent to what? 2.5 or 3 years development at other firms because of everything that "went wrong"

Do I like that CIG appear to be focussing on ship sales and overhyping "new technologies" such as Render to Textures of FOIP? No. I think it a waste of time this early. But given CIGs chosen funding model, I can see why they do it. I don't like it, but I can understand it.

Having said that, there does come a time when CIG will have to put up...and with all the promises they have made, that time is 3.0. Even discounting them a couple of years of active development, CIG need to show progress towards an actual game. 3.0 needs to show some major evolution. They cannot keep tinkering with the game engine or flight model. We need actual gameplay. The engine should have been finished ages ago and the flight model one of the first things completed in Alpha.

But do I think CIG are demonstrating the degree of criminality needed for a scam? No. But I think the focus on raising money via ship sales and the like IS partially responsible for the slow development. You can argue that they are being dishonest, but a lot of that is marketing and PR and expected. Their funding model requires a degree of hype to keep the money rolling in but salesmanship isn't (necessarily) fraud or scamming. If people at CIG  were taking money for a game they knew could not be completed...then yes, but I don't see any evidence of that. Incompetence and bad management for sure...but criminality?

Do I believe CIG are working hard on the game? Yes.
Do I believe it will be released? I think they'll try...but I don't know if they will.
Do I think CR is to blame for many of the issues? Yes.
« Last Edit: September 02, 2017, 06:10:18 AM by Kyrt »

Serendipity

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N0mad

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Re: Star Citizen - The Game
« Reply #997 on: September 02, 2017, 06:19:45 AM »
But do I think CIG are demonstrating the degree of criminality needed for a scam? No. But I think the focus on raising money via ship sales and the like IS partially responsible for the slow development. You can argue that they are being dishonest, but a lot of that is marketing and PR and expected.

Strictly speaking whether this project is labelled a scam / fraud will be decided after the fact: either on game release (= no), or after the collapse when the actual truth emerges (= whatever the lawyers decide it is - I'm not a lawyer by the way)  - and we can still all express our own opinion before either of these events happen.

So ask yourself this: will the game ever be released before CIG run out of cash? (seems likely) and if so, and the company collapses, will they end up being to taken to court by angry backers who want their money back accusing them of mismanagement and fraud? (very yes)
« Last Edit: September 02, 2017, 06:23:47 AM by N0mad »

Kyrt

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Re: Star Citizen - The Game
« Reply #998 on: September 02, 2017, 06:21:41 AM »
Spectrum will know...

https://robertsspaceindustries.com/spectrum/community/SC/forum/3/thread/why-did-chris-not-want-the-loading-screen-shown-af

Why? The only people who would know why Chris wanted the loading screen hidden is Chris, and possibly anyone in the hall who might have seen the screen and been able to read it while he was telling people to hide it.

The problem is that the only times CR seemed to want stuff hidden like that is when things were going bad. When the players gun started glitching for example, he was told to remove it. So the suspicion that there was something on the loading screen that we were not supposed to see is very strong.

What would normally be on a loading screen? A pretty picture. Version information. Copyright info.
We saw a bit of a pretty picture. But we saw nothing about why CR was so insistent that the loading screen be swapped out. You could argue that they didn't want it known that it was a special build for Gamescom but I think everyone knew that already and CR essentially admitted as such when he started.


Kyrt

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Re: Star Citizen - The Game
« Reply #999 on: September 02, 2017, 06:32:13 AM »
So ask yourself this: will the game ever be released before CIG run out of cash? (seems likely) and if so, and the company collapses, will they end up being to taken to court by angry backers who want their money back accusing them of mismanagement and fraud? (very yes)

Unless funding via ship sales and the like collapses - possible - I think it likely that CIG will release a game by 2021. Whether they'll have enough for a good launch after that and to provide servers and so on? Who knows.  Someone suggested an "optional " subscription akin to what they have now but I can't see how that could work without the game becoming "pay to win". OTOH, they may decide they don't need a massive marketing campaign...they've already sold a million copies or so ;)

Will they end up being taken to court? That depends on a number of factors. But I doubt anyone will get their money back if they do.
But - mismanagement? Yes...I can see a case. Fraud? Players are being told they are giving money to help develop the game, that the expanded scope means substantial delays, and even that despite what they expect, CIG may release a MVP version and build from there. The funding model of ship sales doesn't seem particularly geared towards fast development but CIG do appear to be developing the game. Slower than I would like but they are developing it. And the toolkits. And the engine. And the worlds. I disagree with their practises and priorities, some of which seem particularly wasteful, but again, that doesn't strike me as fraudulent or a "scam".




Motto

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Re: Star Citizen - The Game
« Reply #1000 on: September 02, 2017, 06:47:33 AM »
Chris knows he can't make the game as he promised it. Yet he took money based on those promises. Now he continues to ask for money by referring to those promises in the full knowledge that he can't keep them. That's fraud. Plain and simple.

dsmart

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Re: Star Citizen - The Game
« Reply #1001 on: September 02, 2017, 06:51:05 AM »
Right. But that's what makes it a scam.  :smug:

They are taking money, in the form of pre-orders, and using that money to develop a game.

You can argue that they are being "dishonest" to be the point of scamming people, but then a lot of what they are doing is simple marketing and PR.
The key point for me is first - are they developing a game? and second - will the game be released?

Nobody is disputing the fact that they are attempting to build a game. We've had this discussion before. ENTIRE companies with worldwide offices pretending to be working on, or actually working on, a project have been shut down after being found to be engaged in scammy tactics and/or fraud. It does NOT matter that they are trying to build a game. That's not - and never was - the argument.

This whole crux of the "scam" part is due to things such as :

- the ToS changes skewed in their favor and which takes away backer rights
- the walkback of promises AFTER getting backer money
- the fundraising tactics which they've been derided time and time again - consistently (even as recently as the 600i debacle)
- the deceptive practices (e.g. R&D demos designed to mislead backers into thinking progress is being made) routinely used to mislead backers
- the deceptive practices - and LIES - designed to mislead backers about the TRUE state of the project

Taking money from backers to do one thing, then using it for another, including personal gain (aka Unjust Enrichment) is the cornerstone of scams.

There's more where that came from. So when I use the word "scam", I don't use it lightly. You want to see examples of scams? Look no further than the FTC site listings. They come in all shapes and sizes.

Star Citizen isn't a game. It's a TV show about a bunch of characters making a game. It's basically "This is Spinal Tap" - except people think the band is real.

dsmart

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Star Citizen isn't a game. It's a TV show about a bunch of characters making a game. It's basically "This is Spinal Tap" - except people think the band is real.

dsmart

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Re: Star Citizen - The Game
« Reply #1003 on: September 02, 2017, 07:01:58 AM »
Spectrum will know...

https://robertsspaceindustries.com/spectrum/community/SC/forum/3/thread/why-did-chris-not-want-the-loading-screen-shown-af

Why? The only people who would know why Chris wanted the loading screen hidden is Chris, and possibly anyone in the hall who might have seen the screen and been able to read it while he was telling people to hide it.

The problem is that the only times CR seemed to want stuff hidden like that is when things were going bad. When the players gun started glitching for example, he was told to remove it. So the suspicion that there was something on the loading screen that we were not supposed to see is very strong.

What would normally be on a loading screen? A pretty picture. Version information. Copyright info.
We saw a bit of a pretty picture. But we saw nothing about why CR was so insistent that the loading screen be swapped out. You could argue that they didn't want it known that it was a special build for Gamescom but I think everyone knew that already and CR essentially admitted as such when he started.

No, he didn't. He said he was going to play 3.0 live. He never said anything about it being a "special" build for GC2017.

This is what Lando said: FF to 17:16


This is what Chris said: FF to 07:31

Star Citizen isn't a game. It's a TV show about a bunch of characters making a game. It's basically "This is Spinal Tap" - except people think the band is real.

dsmart

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Re: Star Citizen - The Game
« Reply #1004 on: September 02, 2017, 07:06:35 AM »
Chris knows he can't make the game as he promised it. Yet he took money based on those promises. Now he continues to ask for money by referring to those promises in the full knowledge that he can't keep them. That's fraud. Plain and simple.

It is. But few either don't actually understand the implications, nor how that works, or they're just in denial and/or towing the official company line.

Star Citizen isn't a game. It's a TV show about a bunch of characters making a game. It's basically "This is Spinal Tap" - except people think the band is real.

 

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