Post by: dsmart on November 23, 2016, 08:51:19 AM
- Lets talk about the "game" itself. A lot of backers, even after 4 years of development, keep claiming how innovative it is, does something that no other game does etc. Yet, we who are on the outside looking in, know this to be pure and utter bullshit.
I once started to write a blog about the game's merits, both in terms of gameplay and tech. But after about 1000 words, it just turned out to be another critical blog that wasn't even worth publishing.
From time to time I've written short technical and subjective missives such as:
The furor over the "golf radar" - post 4550 (http://www.dereksmart.org/forums/topic/star-citizen-musings/#post-4550)
Their procedural generation of planetary terrain tech demos - post 4725 (http://www.dereksmart.org/forums/topic/star-citizen-musings/#post-4725)
The scene sizes & that 64-Bit nonsense - post 1812 (http://www.dereksmart.org/forums/topic/star-citizen-year-four/#post-1812)
The "persistent" universe that's still not persistent - post 1849 (http://www.dereksmart.org/forums/topic/star-citizen-year-four/#post-1849)
How they used Nyx in another procedural planet tech demo - post #2005 (http://www.dereksmart.org/forums/topic/general-discussions/#post-2005)
The revelation by Brian Chambers who claimed they'd revised CE3 by up to 50% - post 4483 (http://www.dereksmart.org/forums/topic/sc-scoop/#post-4483)
There was that time when Sean Tracy decided to clarify the 64-Bit confusion (http://www.gamersnexus.net/gg/2622-star-citizen-sean-tracy-64bit-engine-tech-edge-blending) which backers seemed to be confusing. This is the subject of a recent discussion (see below) between Ben Parry and I.
Status of the 2.6 and 3.0 patches which were due end of this year, and bringing Star Marine as well as "emergent" gameplay - post 4757 (http://www.dereksmart.org/forums/topic/sc-scoop/#post-4757)
The tech demo at GamesCom 2016 - post 4589 (http://www.dereksmart.org/forums/topic/star-citizen-musings/#post-4589)
The tech demo at CitizenCon 2016 - Shattered Dreams blog (http://www.dereksmart.org/2016/10/star-citizen-shattered-dreams/)
The Star Marine fiasco at 2016 anniversary stream - post 4879 (http://www.dereksmart.org/forums/topic/star-citizen-musings/#post-4879)
And of course what the end of year fiasco means for the on-going E.L.E. - post 4854 (http://www.dereksmart.org/forums/topic/sc-scoop/#post-4854)
UPDATE: My discussions (1 (https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php/259596-The-Star-Citizen-Thread-v5?p=4821808&viewfull=1#post4821808),2 (https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php/259596-The-Star-Citizen-Thread-v5?p=4821808&viewfull=1#post4821808),3 (https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php/259596-The-Star-Citizen-Thread-v5?p=4825297&viewfull=1#post4825297),4 (https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php/259596-The-Star-Citizen-Thread-v5?p=4825525&viewfull=1#post4825525),5 (https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php/259596-The-Star-Citizen-Thread-v5?p=4835991&viewfull=1#post4835991),6 (https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php/259596-The-Star-Citizen-Thread-v5?p=4838364&viewfull=1#post4838364),7 (https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php/259596-The-Star-Citizen-Thread-v5?p=4843554&viewfull=1#post4843554),8 (https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php/259596-The-Star-Citizen-Thread-v5?p=4845610&viewfull=1#post4845610)) with Ben Parry one of the rendering programmers on the project. This was sparked by this discussion (http://www.dereksmart.com/forum/index.php?topic=9.msg289#msg289) about the SC world size.
As of Dec 9th, with 2.6 still MIA and 3.0 still a pipe dream, these are the major releases this year since 2.0
v2.0 (https://robertsspaceindustries.com/comm-link/transmission/15106-Star-Citizen-Alpha-20-Available) (patch notes (https://robertsspaceindustries.com/comm-link//15109-Star-Citizen-Alpha-200)), Dec 12, 2015
v2.1.0 (https://robertsspaceindustries.com/comm-link//15137-Star-Citizen-Alpha-210), Jan 15, 2016
v2.2.0 (https://robertsspaceindustries.com/comm-link//15211-Star-Citizen-Alpha-220), March 4, 2016
v2.3.0 (https://robertsspaceindustries.com/comm-link//15268-Star-Citizen-Alpha-230), March 26, 2016
v2.4.0 (https://robertsspaceindustries.com/comm-link//15377-Star-Citizen-Alpha-240), June 9, 2016
v2.5.0 (https://robertsspaceindustries.com/comm-link/engineering/15490-Star-Citizen-Alpha-250), Aug 25, 2016
v2.6 (https://robertsspaceindustries.com/comm-link/transmission/15646-Star-Citizen-Alpha-26-With-Star-Marine-Available), Dec 23, 2016
And during this period, these are ALL the Star Marine updates. Yet, here we are, over a year later, and they still can't get it working.
AUGUST 22ND 2015 (https://robertsspaceindustries.com/comm-link/transmission/14911-Star-Marine-Status-Update)
AUGUST 29TH 2015 (https://robertsspaceindustries.com/comm-link/transmission/14925-Star-Marine-Status-Update)
SEPTEMBER 19TH 2015 (https://robertsspaceindustries.com/comm-link/transmission/14961-Star-Marine-Status-Update)
OCTOBER 23RD 2015 (https://robertsspaceindustries.com/comm-link/transmission/15024-Development-Update)
Don't forget all what they promised in the 2.6 patch (https://starcitizen.tools/Star_Citizen_Alpha_2.6.0#/media/File:Star-Citizen-Alpha-2.6-Nov-18-2016-Schedule.png), as per the recently unveiled "schedule (https://robertsspaceindustries.com/schedule-report)" UPDATE: They changed that almost a week later. Like it never happened (https://www.diffchecker.com/ucNCNlQy).
Company sizes as of CitizenCon 2016 (Oct)
(http://www.dereksmart.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/10/cig-studio-size-1.jpg)
Number of known corporate entities associated with the project. Not including all the third-party contractors and companies.
- Cloud Imperium Games Corp (http://www.corporationwiki.com/California/West-Hollywood/cloud-imperium-games-corporation/135769792.aspx), West Hollywood, CA
- Cloud Imperium Games LLC (http://www.corporationwiki.com/California/West-Hollywood/cloud-imperium-games-llc/103460137.aspx), West Hollywood, CA
- Cloud Imperium Services, LLC (http://www.checkbca.org/report/cloud-imperium-services-llc-100120421/) West Hollywood, CA <– The one is interesting. It is found on BBB, but is not in the CA Secretary Of State (http://kepler.sos.ca.gov/) dB records
- Cloud Imperium Games LLC (http://www.corporationwiki.com/p/2iiuie/cloud-imperium-games-llc), Santa Monica, CA
- Cloud Imperium Games Texas LLC (http://www.corporationwiki.com/p/2fxekb/cloud-imperium-games-texas-llc), West Hollywood, CA
- Cloud Imperium Games Texas LLC (https://www.corporationwiki.com/Texas/Austin/cloud-imperium-games-llc/109896805.aspx), Austin, TX
- Cloud Imperium Games UK Limited (https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/company/08815227), UK
- Foundry 42 Limited (https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/company/08703814), UK
- Foundry 42, Germany
- Gemini 42 Entertainment LLC (http://www.corporationwiki.com/p/2elzql/gemini-42-entertainment-llc), West Hollywood, CA
- Gemini 42 Productions LLC (http://www.corporationwiki.com/p/2eu3qb/gemini-42-productions-llc), Santa Monica, CA
- Roberts Space Industries Corp (http://www.corporationwiki.com/California/West-Hollywood/roberts-space-industries-corp/135769790.aspx), West Hollywood, CA
- Roberts Space Industries International Limited (https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/company/08882924), UK
- Twin Brothers Production Inc (http://www.corporationwiki.com/California/West-Hollywood/twin-brothers-productions-inc/57566546.aspx), West Hollywood, CA
- Twin Bros, Germany
When it's all said and done, amid all the broken feature promises (https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen_refunds/comments/593nng/star_citizen_missing_features_and_broken_promises/) and missed dates, this is what Star Citizen boils down to after 4 years (5 if you count 2011 as per Chris's statements) and $134 million (https://robertsspaceindustries.com/funding-goals) as per the "Star Citizen Alpha 2.5 Features - See what's playable now (https://robertsspaceindustries.com/feature-list)" page.
I need someone to please explain to me, in simple terms, how ANY of this is ground-breaking, let alone have the ability to "change PC gaming".
What I see is a standard fare game with zero innovation or unique features. Waking up in a wank pod and being in fps mod inside a game is neither new, nor ground-breaking. Aside from my game, right now you can go on Steam and find a number of games such as Angels Fall First that do it. Not to mention COD:IW, the upcoming Mass Effect Andromeda.
Who sees a $134 million "game" here? And if they do, what exactly is the "draw" and USP (Unique Selling Point)?
(http://imgur.com/gYKGz3S.jpg)
(http://imgur.com/qrXPvwS.jpg)
(http://imgur.com/fH9SvaO.jpg)
(http://imgur.com/dHfku78.jpg)
(http://imgur.com/rDkwJbB.jpg)
(http://imgur.com/RpS2s9a.jpg)
(http://imgur.com/ax3OSOv.jpg)
(http://imgur.com/pKSFfzw.jpg)
(http://imgur.com/tOEV8Kv.jpg)
(http://imgur.com/kooWPns.jpg)
(http://imgur.com/4WDCErL.jpg)[/list]
Post by: JohnGorno on November 23, 2016, 03:14:06 PM
There is no MMO space sim with first person where you can walk around on every ship while it flies with thousands of miles per hours through a system, have a fire fight on board whilst other ships try to blast holes in it from the outside. I mean, maybe there is one, but I guess I have missed that. :psyduck:
Post by: Newbest on November 23, 2016, 03:29:52 PM
So to tl:dr
Draw, unencumbered schedule. USP, fidelity of scope.
Edit. Phone grammars.
Post by: Kyrt on November 23, 2016, 04:00:48 PM
I think people see a game in development. Beyond that, I can't think of a game that has the features SC combined into one seamless game.
There is no MMO space sim with first person where you can walk around on every ship while it flies with thousands of miles per hours through a system, have a fire fight on board whilst other ships try to blast holes in it from the outside. I mean, maybe there is one, but I guess I have missed that. :psyduck:
Fine and dandy.
Great.
Good.
Fast forward to 2019 when SC is released and Elite also has FPS and boarding actions and the ability to walk around ships and stations.
Where is the innovation?
Elite has flaws but Frontier took the pathway of releasing a MVP and are building upon it. They have ambitious plans and so far they have delivered. And even when I think their releases don't add much to the game...as with multi crew...I still see the advantages of following through simply because of what such features mean for future development.
SC IMO will also have a MVP release. CIG will build upon it and add new features.
But I look at what Frontier have given us with a few million dollars and I see what CIG have produced with a few tens of millions.
And i have to ask....what is CIG spending their money on?
I don't believe there is a scam as some would say.
I think CIG are earnestly developing the game.
I think ship sales are a nice way to reward investors...without actually making them investors. A neat way to get people to part with their money for an instant reward as opposed to a need to actually deliver a profit.
But looking at what has been delivered so far?
What is SC doing that is so much better than anything else in a similar vein?
Post by: dsmart on November 23, 2016, 04:12:45 PM
I think people see a game in development. Beyond that, I can't think of a game that has the features SC combined into one seamless game.
There is no MMO space sim with first person where you can walk around on every ship while it flies with thousands of miles per hours through a system, have a fire fight on board whilst other ships try to blast holes in it from the outside. I mean, maybe there is one, but I guess I have missed that. :psyduck:
Well none of those things are actually working atm. And thus far, there is no indication that they will be. That's the point.
Also, have you played Angels Fall First? No? It's on Steam Early Access. Try it.
Post by: dsmart on November 23, 2016, 04:13:47 PM
The draw of Star Citizen is the freedom from time constraints CIG has and the unique selling point is the fidelity at which the final game will execute its features. While games in the past have created similar products CIG has embarked upon the creation of this type of game at an elevated level. Kick starting this project was the best way to create the game CIG envisioned and with all development that vision changes when you are getting it done. Looking at perhaps one of the best open world games made, Rockstar defined what happens when the developer is not tied to a rigid production schedule and what can happen if you wait until you get right before you release. CIG is executing their production in the same way with the added bonus of communicating while they do this. The fact that they are not settling for just good enough is another draw for this game. Rather that pushing out a rushed product they are truly attempting to release the best of what can be. Regarding their current development time CIG is only in year 4 of what is normally a 5 year cycle on average to produce a new IP. A six year cycle for the development of this game should be expected because of what they are attempting. As well the successive years will bring accelerated production as key feature are created and the heavy lifting is winding down. Now it is completely understandable that this game might not be for everyone but to suggest that CIG is somehow complicit in some scam is about as believable as Elvis still being alive.
So to tl:dr
Draw, unencumbered schedule. USP, fidelity of scope.
Edit. Phone grammars.
uhm, how does any of the above relate to a "game" and the subject of my missive?
Post by: dsmart on November 23, 2016, 04:14:58 PM
I think people see a game in development. Beyond that, I can't think of a game that has the features SC combined into one seamless game.
There is no MMO space sim with first person where you can walk around on every ship while it flies with thousands of miles per hours through a system, have a fire fight on board whilst other ships try to blast holes in it from the outside. I mean, maybe there is one, but I guess I have missed that. :psyduck:
But looking at what has been delivered so far?
What is SC doing that is so much better than anything else in a similar vein?
Precisely. And this is the question that most of these guys can't seem to be able to answer.
Post by: Scruffpuff on November 23, 2016, 04:41:39 PM
Can we really expect the casual observer to understand what's really happening at CIG? What Chris's actual game development history and credentials reveal? Can we expect the average person to know, just by looking, how badly this studio has been approaching the project? How much money has been blown by filming millions of dollars of motion capture before the game engine is working? Failing to even know what anyone will DO in this game before making tons of ships to sell? The fact that there's no flight model or working anything? And over 100 other little factoids that reveal that this isn't actually a development studio - it's a cargo cult.
The average person reads articles, sees screenshots, and assumes what 99% of the planet assumes - a developer is working on a game. They simply look at what actual game developers and publishers are doing, and use that template to extrapolate what they think will happen with CIG.
CIG's business model relies on this mistake occurring indefinitely. Once they release anything concrete, people will see this project for what it really is. Then the real fun begins.
Post by: JohnGorno on November 23, 2016, 05:06:17 PM
I think people see a game in development. Beyond that, I can't think of a game that has the features SC combined into one seamless game.
There is no MMO space sim with first person where you can walk around on every ship while it flies with thousands of miles per hours through a system, have a fire fight on board whilst other ships try to blast holes in it from the outside. I mean, maybe there is one, but I guess I have missed that. :psyduck:
Well none of those things are actually working atm. And thus far, there is no indication that they will be. That's the point.
Also, have you played Angels Fall First? No? It's on Steam Early Access. Try it.
You asked what people see in it. I answered you that: A game in on going development. You can agree to this fact or not. And so far they managed to get *something* done. Some people are okay with that progress, some are not.
Regarding AFF: Yes. It looks like a great game. But it's not an MMO. It's a mixup between Battlefield and Planetside 2. And not what Star Citizen promises as a whole. Like the others said there have been games that did what SC promises. Just not cramped into a single seamless expierence.
Post by: Dementropy on November 23, 2016, 06:21:44 PM
If SC gets released, then it will be measured against other games, and will have the uphill battle of selling to an as-yet untapped audience to make up for the cost of production.
Star Citizen's current and ongoing success is fueling theorycrafting through future promises without delivering on the credit generated for past ones.
Post by: dsmart on November 23, 2016, 06:31:31 PM
I think people see a game in development. Beyond that, I can't think of a game that has the features SC combined into one seamless game.
There is no MMO space sim with first person where you can walk around on every ship while it flies with thousands of miles per hours through a system, have a fire fight on board whilst other ships try to blast holes in it from the outside. I mean, maybe there is one, but I guess I have missed that. :psyduck:
Well none of those things are actually working atm. And thus far, there is no indication that they will be. That's the point.
Also, have you played Angels Fall First? No? It's on Steam Early Access. Try it.
You asked what people see in it. I answered you that: A game in on going development. You can agree to this fact or not. And so far they managed to get *something* done. Some people are okay with that progress, some are not.
Regarding AFF: Yes. It looks like a great game. But it's not an MMO. It's a mixup between Battlefield and Planetside 2. And not what Star Citizen promises as a whole. Like the others said there have been games that did what SC promises. Just not cramped into a single seamless expierence.
Star Citizen isn't an MMO either, is it?
Post by: Newbest on November 23, 2016, 06:36:12 PM
uhm, how does any of the above relate to a "game" and the subject of my missive?
The end of your missive stated:
Who sees a $134 million "game" here? And if they do, what exactly is the "draw" and USP (Unique Selling Point)?
I answered what was asked.
Would you not like to be in the position to have a large sum of capital and the ability to build a team to see your vision realized?
And again I will state somewhat differently what the Unique Selling Point is, a game people want to play that contains systems crafted to create a fun game.
Do you truly believe that the entirety of CIG is a fabricated company that is in no way building a game? That the money they have acquired is not going towards the creation of said game?
Derek you of all people have been on the end of having to answer to publishers. You have seen the effects of a company hell bent on releasing a game no matter what the current state it is in. SC is a game that has managed to avoid the unenviable position of having to answer to publisher. You have to admit that is the best place to be when making a game. No one wants Johnny Corporate telling you to put a turtle in the game because his son loves turtles.
I do think they are making a game and its selling point is the scale at which it is being developed. Yes there are many systems, yes they are incomplete but the game as a whole is incomplete.
And you know that it is possible to knit game components together when developing. They do not all have to take part in the same branch, it has been done in the industry forever.
This game will take time but it will be good because the people making the game are as passionate as you about making games and they truly want to build a glorious game.
Post by: Scruffpuff on November 23, 2016, 07:14:50 PM
Newbest - nobody thinks the production companies are fake. Obviously they're staffed with passionate people who want to make this game reality. The disconnect is only in one place - Chris. Aside from Wing Commander (a game made so long ago it shipped on 5.25" floppy disks) his history is mixed at best. Once he milked the good will out of his original franchise, he ran everything else into the ground. Even Freelancer, his last reasonable foray into gaming, had to be taken from him and released by a real production company. That was in 2000 - 16 years ago.
Since that time Chris has not been in the gaming industry, and has not learned anything during his absence. Now that he's back, he's literally reinventing and rediscovering almost two decades of gaming lessons first hand, not because gaming best practices have failed to evolve, but because he doesn't think any game developers over a near 20 year period have anything to teach him.
That arrogance led him to commit an extraordinary amount of his backer money into lavish offices in 4 countries across the world, filling them with the accumulated bric-a-brac that actual development companies, such as Blizzard, had to earn over decades of hard work and actual produced, shipped, and commercially successful products and IPs. He skipped all that and went straight for the appearance of success. CIG, as an entity, has no games to its name, shipped or otherwise.
There is no documentation or plan for what the actual game systems are, but instead, what we have are nothing more than potential game assets, that Chris, being out of the industry for too long and refusing to listen to people who know more than him, thinks will plug together like Lego bricks and a game will pop out. The engine is a Frankenstein's monster of garbled code that's barely holding at the seams. Rather than being the typical state of a pre-alpha, CIG's engine, in contrast, gets weaker and more prone to catastrophic failure with every patch.
Chris, in short, has no idea how to turn the ideas in his head into the game he's promised. He knows where he wants to be, but has no idea how to get there. That makes him an inappropriate steward of backer cash. Regardless of whether or not he came up with the idea, whether or not he's the visionary, all that is secondary - if he can't turn that vision into reality, and hand the reins of development and leadership to a competent individual and retain a position as lead designer, rather than CIG godhead, it's extraordinarily unlikely that Star Citizen can fulfill its potential.
Consider other large companies and how close they can come to the edge of oblivion based on leadership decisions. Netflix was doing great, and with one bad decision, nearly ceased to exist overnight. Fortunately in their case they course-corrected in time. And Netflix had a product. How many bad decisions can CIG make, back to back, and stay in business, when they have yet to design a business model built on residual income?
So you see it's not really a question of "is it real, is it a great idea, is it visionary" etc. - sure, it's all of those things. Nearly everyone here is and/or was a backer of this project for the same reasons the most diehard fan bought in. But there comes a time when you have to think - is Chris actually qualified to be calling all the shots, and micromanaging this down to the shoelaces on the spaceman models, with his track record? Is it that important, even if it's "his idea", to let him crash and burn if that's his tendency?
Remember, it's not his money. We might know that, but I don't think Chris Roberts knows that. Or cares.
Post by: concern on November 23, 2016, 07:18:26 PM
No one wants Johnny Corporate telling you to put a turtle in the game because his son loves turtles.
Instead we have Chris Roberts putting his son's turtles into the game.
Post by: Bio-Mujahid on November 23, 2016, 08:25:27 PM
I think people see a game in development. Beyond that, I can't think of a game that has the features SC combined into one seamless game.
There is no MMO space sim with first person where you can walk around on every ship while it flies with thousands of miles per hours through a system, have a fire fight on board whilst other ships try to blast holes in it from the outside. I mean, maybe there is one, but I guess I have missed that. :psyduck:
I fail to see the MMO side in star citizen. Crashes when 5 people connect.... how is this an MMO!
Post by: Newbest on November 23, 2016, 09:01:36 PM
I'd like to welcome Newbest - and differentiate this forum from an echo chamber like Reddit in doing so. Respectful discourse is best.
Thanks for the welcome. I have been watching from the outside looking for quite some time now and thought to add some perspective as someone who is in neither camp but a student of game design.
Newbest - nobody thinks the production companies are fake.
There is an active narrative that would disagree with this statement. Or if that isn't the case it makes no sense that comments were made to "hint" that the company was somehow not really a games studio.
The disconnect is only in one place - Chris. Aside from Wing Commander (a game made so long ago it shipped on 5.25" floppy disks) his history is mixed at best. Once he milked the good will out of his original franchise, he ran everything else into the ground. Even Freelancer, his last reasonable foray into gaming, had to be taken from him and released by a real production company. That was in 2000 - 16 years ago.
This is an understandable stance to take if you have never developed video games before. While agreed he produced games 16 years ago those games were very successful when released and seem to be still enjoyed to this day. The Wing Commander Series was an excellent set of games when released. Having been around for when they were released they were some of the best games available to play on the systems at the time. Origin as a whole was producing fantastic games in that era. Game design is like riding a bike, you do not forget how to do it. What Chris may lack in technical understanding he makes up for by hiring people that can fill those voids and get the job done.
Since that time Chris has not been in the gaming industry, and has not learned anything during his absence. Now that he's back, he's literally reinventing and rediscovering almost two decades of gaming lessons first hand, not because gaming best practices have failed to evolve, but because he doesn't think any game developers over a near 20 year period have anything to teach him.
That arrogance led him to commit an extraordinary amount of his backer money into lavish offices in 4 countries across the world, filling them with the accumulated bric-a-brac that actual development companies, such as Blizzard, had to earn over decades of hard work and actual produced, shipped, and commercially successful products and IPs. He skipped all that and went straight for the appearance of success. CIG, as an entity, has no games to its name, shipped or otherwise.
CIG needs offices to work, having non-dumpy offices help get work done as employees enjoy working in a nice space. As well, when moving forward and looking to the future all capital expenses around offices only help with optics when it comes to attracting other investors. Would you want to work in a dump? Bric-a-brac will come in from everyone that works there. Game developers are notorious for bringing in man dolls and the like.
There is no documentation or plan for what the actual game systems are, but instead, what we have are nothing more than potential game assets, that Chris, being out of the industry for too long and refusing to listen to people who know more than him, thinks will plug together like Lego bricks and a game will pop out. The engine is a Frankenstein's monster of garbled code that's barely holding at the seams. Rather than being the typical state of a pre-alpha, CIG's engine, in contrast, gets weaker and more prone to catastrophic failure with every patch.
Never, ever, ever, ;) has a game developer ever released design docs while working on a project. Those are 100% internal documents ment for employees eyes only. Seeing as none of us work at CIG we are unfit to comment on the state of the current game design. Chris has also employed people from the current industry who know how to make games. And yes he is listening to them. Work is getting done. The fact that they have taken Cryengine and refactored the bejezus out of it shows you they have talent on their team. They are using an engine that has a great foundation. This is to be applauded because they have chosen not to re-invent the wheel but have instead adopted and re-engineered a wicked engine. As well the have engineers from Crytek itself who know this tech inside and out, which explains the things they have been able to do in the game.
Chris, in short, has no idea how to turn the ideas in his head into the game he's promised. He knows where he wants to be, but has no idea how to get there. That makes him an inappropriate steward of backer cash. Regardless of whether or not he came up with the idea, whether or not he's the visionary, all that is secondary - if he can't turn that vision into reality, and hand the reins of development and leadership to a competent individual and retain a position as lead designer, rather than CIG godhead, it's extraordinarily unlikely that Star Citizen can fulfill its potential.
I would disagree. They are making progress and building a foundation. As I stated before, in game development you find as you go along goals move. What you once thought was awesome and sweet can now become even awesomer and sweeter. They have a plan, they are executing it, it just isnt happening as publicly or as transparently as you would like. Got it. Well unfortunately that is how game development goes. They are not required to disclose everything to you. And yes I understand that people may be backers, but you backed the game to be released and not how it gets developed. And fortunately if this is something someone does not like, they can back out and get a refund. What is strange is the level of hate being generated by those who no longer agree with the game. You are 100% allowed to not want the game or even like how it is unfolding, but ad hominem attacks on Chris's character or his ability is strange. Have you ever even spoken to him, have you developed games at his level before? I believe not judging someone before walking a mile in their shoes might be a better way to approach this.
Consider other large companies and how close they can come to the edge of oblivion based on leadership decisions. Netflix was doing great, and with one bad decision, nearly ceased to exist overnight. Fortunately in their case they course-corrected in time. And Netflix had a product. How many bad decisions can CIG make, back to back, and stay in business, when they have yet to design a business model built on residual income?
The company is not on the edge of collapse. CIG understands how to run a business. They are not seat of the pantsing this ride. They do actually have a business model already in the works through the selling of ships and or credits. Much like almost every other game now being created micro transactions are going to be supported. CIG does not want to collapse and Chris is not leading them to this.
Remember, it's not his money. We might know that, but I don't think Chris Roberts knows that. Or cares.
Lets bring this all back around to, you disagree with Chris's abilities so you have dropped your supported and pulled out. Excellent. But to suggest Chris doesnt see the fortunate position he is in is misguided.
Chris is as passionate about games as Derek is and you can be sure Derek leads in the same way as Chris. His vision is the vision. Perhaps this is why there is so much discord, because Chris has managed to harness the ability to create the game he loves and knows that others love as well. Derek unfortunately has not had this opportunity.
This game is taking some time to build. Other games have taken some time to build. This game has the luxury of not being beholden to a publisher which in turns lets schedules become more fluid, which in turns means things take longer, which in turn means thing can get polished, which in turn means the game will be better still. Can we please drop the narrative that Chris somehow has no idea what he is doing and somehow hasnt managed to hire people who know how to make game? Because truly that seems to be what this comes back to every time.
Some people dont like how long it take to get games made, got it. But everyone one else is okay with it and is willing to see this through. Super. Now lets get back to playing other games and ignore this one if its not you cup of tea, or dont ignore it if it is. But this game aint coming out soon and thats okay and not some nefarious plot.
Word to all your moms.
Peace.
Post by: Scruffpuff on November 23, 2016, 09:10:13 PM
Lots of stuff.
Thanks for the thought-out replies. We're obviously entrenched in our positions so I'll just make 2 clarifications:
1) I haven't pulled out or received a refund. I'm sticking with it to see what happens.
2) Chris has shown repeatedly that he does not listen to or trust his crew. I'm afraid I don't have specific examples but I suspect many here have several. Has that changed recently? I don't know.
Just don't be one of those guys who loses his shit if this goes tits up - it's not worth it over a video game. I don't get that vibe from your writing, so it's probably not necessary for me to say it, but it doesn't hurt to do so anyway. I don't think some of the current backers are seeing this as optimistically yet still balanced as you - some of these people are going to go mental.
Post by: Newbest on November 23, 2016, 09:18:13 PM
2) Chris has shown repeatedly that he does not listen to or trust his crew. I'm afraid I don't have specific examples but I suspect many here have several. Has that changed recently? I don't know.
We may all know somewhat else who may be like that if its true. ;)
Just don't be one of those guys who loses his shit if this goes tits up - it's not worth it over a video game. I don't get that vibe from your writing, so it's probably not necessary for me to say it, but it doesn't hurt to do so anyway. I don't think some of the current backers are seeing this as optimistically yet still balanced as you - some of these people are going to go mental.
I promise if this were to implode it will not affect my day to day at all.
I would be sad if anything because they have the world at their feet with this momentum. We are witnessing something that has never occurred in the history of game development. To have a studio able to fund their game out of the gate and be able to do it on their terms should be nothing but exciting.
Game development sucks because it can take a long time to actualize what you want but the end result is almost always fantastic.
The level of mental needs to be scaled back on all sides. =)
Post by: Mehlan on November 23, 2016, 09:55:25 PM
Work is getting done and they were only able to 'refactor the bejezus' out of it because they got some of the engineers from Crytek.
Chris is an Idea guy living on the border of lala land.. take a serious look at what the man has said about where the game stands in each of his 'letters' and then the reality of where things stand.
Dec 17, 2013
". We’re further along than originally planned in building the tech for the persistent and instancing server backend which will ultimately drive Star Citizen. Both Squadron 42 and First Person Personal combat / boarding have full teams working in parallel, in addition to the teams in Los Angeles, Austin and Montreal working on the Dogfighting and Planetside components. We have smaller groups of people supporting these efforts from CGBot in Austin & Monterrey, Mexico and Void Alpha in San Francisco."
Yep, back in good old 2013 They were 'further along than originally planned'....and here we are almost 3 years later, SQ42 now has a supposed 2017 release date, FPS is a joke and star marine is still vaporware.
The Hype and all the BS are repeated attempts to buy time. The 'internal schedule', live streams etc are nothing but elaborate Smoke & mirrors, carrots & sticks while they struggle to actually 'produce' something functional out of the behemoth of bs.
Post by: Newbest on November 23, 2016, 10:24:42 PM
The Hype and all the BS are repeated attempts to buy time. The 'internal schedule', live streams etc are nothing but elaborate Smoke & mirrors, carrots & sticks while they struggle to actually 'produce' something functional out of the behemoth of bs.
They dont need to buy time, they can take all the time they like. And lets remember they dont want to take up all the time. They want to release the game, they really do.
The smoke and mirror narrative is itself smoke and mirrors. The game is being made, the progress is happening, yes it is taking a long time and making games is hard. Welcome to game dev 101.
Those live streams are not fake, there is a game under there, yes it is bug ridden but that is because it is in development. Everyone can agree this one is taking a long time to make. Excellent.
I am positive those that can wait will be happy they did. Those that dont want to wait will be happy they didnt. Everybody wins!
Post by: Mehlan on November 23, 2016, 10:50:29 PM
No they can't, time & funding is not infinite. Take sufficient 'time', they will run out of $ and thus out of time.
Yes we know they are trying to make the 'game', reality is, it is taking them a longer than CR himself had 'hoped'.
IF CR & CIG were so sure, they wouldn't keep changing the ToS to cover their arse.
"Those live streams are not fake"
Go back and review some of those 2015 'livestreams' of Star Marine...
Which brings us back to the smoke & mirrors....
Note the now '2017' date on the SQ42 Trailer.
Go back and review all the footage and commentary from CIG in regards to Star Marine...
Then compare that to the information from the Kotaku UK article(s)
The Khartu-al flap
DFM/Arena Commander, the delay notice and what was released.
Gamescon & the handling of CitizenCon-SQ42
CIG has yet to introduce any real 'new', relatively stable 'playable' functionality since Arena Commander.
'Seamless translations', 'Planetary Landing' etc..all vaporware until such time as it actually is 'patched' to their 'live' server.
Post by: StarBallz on November 24, 2016, 01:23:42 AM
They'll have a very hard time to get everything together as CR thinks it'll look like.
They haven't shown anything yet that would indicate a system they have in place that could work.
I'm not a fan of Derek but he's just right, it's all smoke & mirrors, will never ever get done the way CR dreamed it up.
And please stop comparing this game to other games that took a very long time to develop, like GTA, Diablo and so on. Those are professional companies that developed and more important delivered feasible features and games. And I'm still surprised that many companies want to make the next big MMO, focus on producing quality first before going mental.
Post by: AP on November 24, 2016, 02:22:48 AM
I promise if this were to implode it will not affect my day to day at all.
It would ruin my whole week, I wouldn't get any work done watching people who've spent thousands on a game that will never come out running around and screaming on the internet.
Post by: dsmart on November 24, 2016, 07:59:55 AM
Chris is as passionate about games as Derek is and you can be sure Derek leads in the same way as Chris. His vision is the vision. Perhaps this is why there is so much discord, because Chris has managed to harness the ability to create the game he loves and knows that others love as well. Derek unfortunately has not had this opportunity.
I'm not sure what precisely you were thinking when you posted that.
First of all, I "lead" nothing like him. I have a small crew of indies, including third-party contractors. You don't see anyone running around screaming about how I "lead". I'm a "hands off" type of leader. And that's because when I embark on a project, I have clear goals, a schedule - and a vision. Each member in the team knows precisely what we're aiming for, and nothing - ever - changes mid-stream, and which would put the project at risk. I never deviate from that. Which is why, decades later, I have different types of games (http://3000ad.com/games/) all in the same IP that I created decades ago including space sim combat (Battlecruiser/Universal Combat), FPS (All Aspect Warfare), Aerial combat (Angle Of Attack), RTS (Line Of Defense Tactics), combined arms (All Aspect Warfare, Line Of Defense) etc - it's all cohesive, never strays from the norm. And I don't reach for the unreachable.
Chris hasn't "managed to harness the ability to create the game he loves" because he hasn't CREATED IT!. And by all accounts, NEVER WILL.
You, like most, are confusing money with abilities. I have built my games - with my own money - for decades now. The games are out there being bought and played by those who like those kinds of games and who share my vision. I don't have a Leprechaun chained in my basement shitting Gold coins. My business makes its money from my games. So even if 10 people buy my game, that's 10 people who did so for a reason. On the other hand, Star Citizen - as pitched - can never be built. This has already been PROVEN without a doubt, as per the fact that 4yrs + $134 million later, not only is it not even 15% completed, but many promised features have either been cut, walked back or never going to be done. These are all FACTS.
Comparing me to Chris, is just as bad as comparing Star Citizen to Line Of Defense. It's a bullshit non-starter. Get a grip.
They dont need to buy time, they can take all the time they like. And lets remember they dont want to take up all the time. They want to release the game, they really do.
This is the same nonsense that you guys keep spouting. It's rubbish. No, they "can't take all the time they like". I mean seriously; where do you get this from? Why do you think they keep resorting to desperate measures to keep raising money? Now, we are at the end of 2016, and as I said in the OP, they have not shown ANYTHING tangible for a project which, by end of Dec, would have been funded to the tune of over $30 million dollars.
Post by: TylerDurd0n on November 24, 2016, 01:33:53 PM
The disconnect is only in one place - Chris. Aside from Wing Commander (a game made so long ago it shipped on 5.25" floppy disks) his history is mixed at best. Once he milked the good will out of his original franchise, he ran everything else into the ground. Even Freelancer, his last reasonable foray into gaming, had to be taken from him and released by a real production company. That was in 2000 - 16 years ago.
This is an understandable stance to take if you have never developed video games before. While agreed he produced games 16 years ago those games were very successful when released and seem to be still enjoyed to this day. The Wing Commander Series was an excellent set of games when released. Having been around for when they were released they were some of the best games available to play on the systems at the time. Origin as a whole was producing fantastic games in that era. Game design is like riding a bike, you do not forget how to do it. What Chris may lack in technical understanding he makes up for by hiring people that can fill those voids and get the job done.
Honest question: Have you developed and/or released games? I've seen remarks like that on the forums as well as on the subreddit and most of them don't align with my experience in the industry or that of my peers. I've seen backers telling actual (anonymous) game developers that they have no clue about game development.
Game design is evolving constantly and the pace has only increased in recent years. While developing a game at least a few competitors will come up with amazing ideas and solutions to design problems you are currently facing and you know that you can't do anything about it and have to ship a game with a less-then-great part of your design. That's "normal", because you need to release a game and can't play "catch-up" all the time (also because you normally don't have unlimited time and/or money - and that's a good thing™).
It takes 1-2 games to change the landscape and player expectations with it. Look at the rise of MOBAs. Starcraft's not the biggest eSports game around anymore, as MOBAs' razor-sharp focus on team play and your single (!) unit has overtaken it massively. Blizzard was fortunate enough to identify the toxicity and elitism of LoL's player base as something they can exploit with their more "noob"-friendly HOTS (and MOBAs itself are a poster child for the more modern "release early/iterate often" school of game development).
And that's just one example of many. Look at how ridiculous weapon customisation has become in modern military shooters. How action-oriented western RPGs have become. The rise of companion apps or websites.
CR himself noted that he "needs" to release a game by 2014 to avoid it becoming stale. He was right. But then the money came rolling in and for some reason he thought abandoning that plan was a good choice. Now they're playing catch-up.
And let's put down those rose-tinted glasses when it comes to Wing Commander - gameplay-wise that game was ok. It delivered a cinematic experience and combined spaceflight gameplay with a pulp SciFi story. But it (as much as it's successors) was never a joy to play - how they didn't even think about improving that janky, twitchy spaceflight at all boggles my mind.
Since that time Chris has not been in the gaming industry, and has not learned anything during his absence. Now that he's back, he's literally reinventing and rediscovering almost two decades of gaming lessons first hand, not because gaming best practices have failed to evolve, but because he doesn't think any game developers over a near 20 year period have anything to teach him.
That arrogance led him to commit an extraordinary amount of his backer money into lavish offices in 4 countries across the world, filling them with the accumulated bric-a-brac that actual development companies, such as Blizzard, had to earn over decades of hard work and actual produced, shipped, and commercially successful products and IPs. He skipped all that and went straight for the appearance of success. CIG, as an entity, has no games to its name, shipped or otherwise.
CIG needs offices to work, having non-dumpy offices help get work done as employees enjoy working in a nice space. As well, when moving forward and looking to the future all capital expenses around offices only help with optics when it comes to attracting other investors. Would you want to work in a dump? Bric-a-brac will come in from everyone that works there. Game developers are notorious for bringing in man dolls and the like.
Nobody cares about the bric-a-brac that devs bring to the office, but what he's alluding to is the massive amount of stuff that's on display in the offices for a game that isn't even out yet. Calling them out for spending money on that is often construed as expecting them to sit in unheated huts, but that's a logical fallacy. Of course they need decent offices, but what CIG does ($20k coffee machines or not) veers into "lavish office" territory. And if all you got is backer money, I don't think that a certain amount of decency with regards to how you spend that money would hurt.
They could of course release financial statements that prove that no backer money had been spent on the ship models, posters, expensive desks, sofas, spaceship doors, etc.. Yet they rather chose to refund people's pledges than show some numbers, so there you go.. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
There is no documentation or plan for what the actual game systems are, but instead, what we have are nothing more than potential game assets, that Chris, being out of the industry for too long and refusing to listen to people who know more than him, thinks will plug together like Lego bricks and a game will pop out. The engine is a Frankenstein's monster of garbled code that's barely holding at the seams. Rather than being the typical state of a pre-alpha, CIG's engine, in contrast, gets weaker and more prone to catastrophic failure with every patch.
Never, ever, ever, ;) has a game developer ever released design docs while working on a project. Those are 100% internal documents ment for employees eyes only. Seeing as none of us work at CIG we are unfit to comment on the state of the current game design. Chris has also employed people from the current industry who know how to make games. And yes he is listening to them. Work is getting done. The fact that they have taken Cryengine and refactored the bejezus out of it shows you they have talent on their team. They are using an engine that has a great foundation. This is to be applauded because they have chosen not to re-invent the wheel but have instead adopted and re-engineered a wicked engine. As well the have engineers from Crytek itself who know this tech inside and out, which explains the things they have been able to do in the game.
Never, ever, ever, has a developer raised $130 million in crowdfunding, used that money to open 4 studios world wide, booked The Imaginarium for performance capture sessions with a Hollywood cast and 4 years later (if you're generous) hasn't delivered anything that resembles a product with working game systems. People tout that CIG is doing what nobody has tried/done before and that's why people should believe in it. How about fulfilling that "open development" promise for once, communicating setbacks, stupid mistakes, rollbacks, roadblocks, design issues, redesigns - you know all the things that happen during development that sometimes set you back to square one. How about being open about this right when it happens and not when it can't be avoided anymore (remember that Star Marine was "just weeks away" before being scrapped after months of silence)?
Being truly open about these things would also be something that nobody has tried/done before and it sure would be appreciated. That's why so many consider "The Pledge" to be unfulfilled/broken by CIG. I've experienced first hand what can and will go wrong during game development, yet none of these things ever came up in CIG's coverage.
Now - the engine. Choosing CryEngine was a questionable choice (why would you chose the engine with the comparably smallest dev community and thus lowest amount of available experience in the industry) right from the start. It wasn't exactly perfect for the original pitch, but it had the benefit of saving costs which - for a crowdfunded game - was appreciated.
But the moment that CIG chose to balloon the scope of the game, they should've thought long and hard about keeping that engine. At times it seems that the engine itself is actively fighting against CIG, exposing bugs and glitches the more they're changing it. The cruft that it has amassed over the years must be horrible (and whenever I see parts of the source code on Bugsmashers I get cold shivers).
Hindsight is 20/20 but I (and many others) thought that this engine was not a great choice in 2012. So far it hasn't proven us wrong.
Chris, in short, has no idea how to turn the ideas in his head into the game he's promised. He knows where he wants to be, but has no idea how to get there. That makes him an inappropriate steward of backer cash. Regardless of whether or not he came up with the idea, whether or not he's the visionary, all that is secondary - if he can't turn that vision into reality, and hand the reins of development and leadership to a competent individual and retain a position as lead designer, rather than CIG godhead, it's extraordinarily unlikely that Star Citizen can fulfill its potential.
I would disagree. They are making progress and building a foundation. As I stated before, in game development you find as you go along goals move. What you once thought was awesome and sweet can now become even awesomer and sweeter. They have a plan, they are executing it, it just isnt happening as publicly or as transparently as you would like. Got it. Well unfortunately that is how game development goes. They are not required to disclose everything to you. And yes I understand that people may be backers, but you backed the game to be released and not how it gets developed. And fortunately if this is something someone does not like, they can back out and get a refund. What is strange is the level of hate being generated by those who no longer agree with the game. You are 100% allowed to not want the game or even like how it is unfolding, but ad hominem attacks on Chris's character or his ability is strange. Have you ever even spoken to him, have you developed games at his level before? I believe not judging someone before walking a mile in their shoes might be a better way to approach this.
Well The Pledge that CR posted right after the first round of funding was achieved likes to have a word with you:
Quote from: ChrisRoberts
We, the Star Citizen team at Cloud Imperium, hereby promise to deliver the game you expect.
(cont'd)
We, the Developer, intend to treat you with the same respect we would give a publisher. You will receive regular updates about the progress of the game.
I've worked with investors/publishers and did pitches or regular dev updates for them. If I had been as "open" as CIG is, they would have demanded a change of leadership of the company and installed one of theirs to do oversight and keep us in check.
Analogies are a dime a dozen, but if Tesla behaved like CIG, they would still work on building the factory that produces the robots that one day will manufacture the Model S you pledged for and in the meantime have chosen that they also need to reinvent the actual construction robots.
---
Again I don't know if those that tell others that they don't understand game development have ever worked in the industry before. And I can just speak from my experience in software and game development. So naturally my experience and knowledge is limited. But the image that is purported in the SC community is at times a gross misrepresentation of
- how Game development works
- the role of publishers/investors
- the influence(!) of publishers/investors
- the impact of CIG's efforts
among other things.
"Better is the enemy of good" and "perfection is achieved not when there's nothing to add, but when there's nothing left to remove" are as true as ever. Both are hard lessons to learn. Both help you in delivering actual products. Both assist you in "letting go". Those are good things! Constraints and deadlines fuel creativity. And they force you to come up with "good enough" solutions to focus on the bigger picture (which is a final product).
The reason us other developers don't chase those "impossible" (lol) solutions for the most part is not because they're "impossible" but rather that they're not worth it. If needed you can fake it and the player will never now (mostly because she usually just doesn't care). The time saved there can then be spent on other things.
CIG is therefore just another example of why crowdfunding the game development heroes of yesteryear is a bad idea for the most part. They go on and on about how publishers and investors have stifled their creativity and how their "disappointing" games could've been so much better. And big enough parts of the audience drank that kool-aid (the superiority complex of PC gamers probably helped as well).
Post by: JohnGorno on November 24, 2016, 02:39:52 PM
I think people see a game in development. Beyond that, I can't think of a game that has the features SC combined into one seamless game.
There is no MMO space sim with first person where you can walk around on every ship while it flies with thousands of miles per hours through a system, have a fire fight on board whilst other ships try to blast holes in it from the outside. I mean, maybe there is one, but I guess I have missed that. :psyduck:
I fail to see the MMO side in star citizen. Crashes when 5 people connect.... how is this an MMO!
I think that would be LoD though. And regardless of what it is now, because development, it is aiming to have a persistent universe where everyone plays in. And that is in fact per definition a MMO.
Post by: dsmart on November 25, 2016, 05:20:42 AM
*snip*
I've worked with investors/publishers and did pitches or regular dev updates for them. If I had been as "open" as CIG is, they would have demanded a change of leadership of the company and installed one of theirs to do oversight and keep us in check.
Analogies are a dime a dozen, but if Tesla behaved like CIG, they would still work on building the factory that produces the robots that one day will manufacture the Model S you pledged for and in the meantime have chosen that they also need to reinvent the actual construction robots.
*snip*
The reason us other developers don't chase those "impossible" (lol) solutions for the most part is not because they're "impossible" but rather that they're not worth it. If needed you can fake it and the player will never now (mostly because she usually just doesn't care). The time saved there can then be spent on other things.
CIG is therefore just another example of why crowdfunding the game development heroes of yesteryear is a bad idea for the most part. They go on and on about how publishers and investors have stifled their creativity and how their "disappointing" games could've been so much better. And big enough parts of the audience drank that kool-aid (the superiority complex of PC gamers probably helped as well).
Just want to say that this was an excellent post that touched every single piece of argument these guys bring up and which for some reason they can't quite reconcile.
The part that is really annoying is that they go on about why all this money is a "good" thing, because it means he can make the game he wants, how they are "open" about development, how it's great the don't have the "burden" of a publisher, they are "building" offices and a time, that they are building the tech that would make all these dreams magically possible. Never in my almost 30+ year industry history, have I come across something like this. They are in complete and utter denial; even as 4-5 years and $134 million later, with promise after promise being broken, no game in sight, they still won't accept the fact that the failure of this project is a clear and present danger. They simply refuse to accept it; and they will argue tooth and and nail about why WE are wrong. And they still have NO game.
I think people see a game in development. Beyond that, I can't think of a game that has the features SC combined into one seamless game.
There is no MMO space sim with first person where you can walk around on every ship while it flies with thousands of miles per hours through a system, have a fire fight on board whilst other ships try to blast holes in it from the outside. I mean, maybe there is one, but I guess I have missed that. :psyduck:
I fail to see the MMO side in star citizen. Crashes when 5 people connect.... how is this an MMO!
I think that would be LoD though. And regardless of what it is now, because development, it is aiming to have a persistent universe where everyone plays in. And that is in fact per definition a MMO.
They won't even think or mention LoD though. Because you know, it doesn't have the benefit of $134 million budget and 500+ devs all of which amount only to fancy graphics. Aside from the fact that the game already has a 100% persistent world with no instancing or sharding. But just wait and see what happens in the coming months. That's why I don't even bother arguing with them about LoD.
Post by: dsmart on November 25, 2016, 09:18:25 AM
(http://i.imgur.com/vH1DDyj.gif)
Post by: dsmart on November 25, 2016, 09:56:08 AM
The minute I saw this bullshit schedule (https://robertsspaceindustries.com/schedule-report), I knew it was just that: bullshit.
Meanwhile, still no word on the status of the much touted 3.0 (aka Jesus Patch) which was due end of the year.
(http://www.dereksmart.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/10/sc-rm-2-6-1024x512.jpg)
(http://www.dereksmart.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/11/sc-rm-3-0-1024x650.jpg)
Post by: dsmart on November 25, 2016, 11:55:03 AM
Post by: JohnGorno on November 25, 2016, 02:19:49 PM
I think that would be LoD though. And regardless of what it is now, because development, it is aiming to have a persistent universe where everyone plays in. And that is in fact per definition a MMO.
They won't even think or mention LoD though. Because you know, it doesn't have the benefit of $134 million budget and 500+ devs all of which amount only to fancy graphics. Aside from the fact that the game already has a 100% persistent world with no instancing or sharding. But just wait and see what happens in the coming months. That's why I don't even bother arguing with them about LoD.
What exactly about LoD is persistent? Character progression, base building, point capturing, weapon custimazation? While having "seamless" loading screens?
I can't remember any of those. No, not being persistent. Being existent in the ..game.
Post by: dsmart on November 25, 2016, 03:25:29 PM
I think that would be LoD though. And regardless of what it is now, because development, it is aiming to have a persistent universe where everyone plays in. And that is in fact per definition a MMO.
They won't even think or mention LoD though. Because you know, it doesn't have the benefit of $134 million budget and 500+ devs all of which amount only to fancy graphics. Aside from the fact that the game already has a 100% persistent world with no instancing or sharding. But just wait and see what happens in the coming months. That's why I don't even bother arguing with them about LoD.
What exactly about LoD is persistent? Character progression, base building, point capturing, weapon custimazation? While having "seamless" loading screens?
I can't remember any of those. No, not being persistent. Being existent in the ..game.
Do you know what "persistent" means, within the context of a game? Start there.
To answer your question. Everything in LoD is persistent because it was designed that way from the ground up and from the very start. The world, the server state, the player state (stats, weapons, inventory etc) etc - all of it. That's what an MMO is. If you'd played it, you would know that. http://lodgame.com
Post by: dsmart on November 25, 2016, 03:33:17 PM
And apparently the calendar they used to create it the first time, had no knowledge of holidays.
The FUN:
Quote
GFORCES
This has been added to the scope of 2.6.0
Work has been completed by code and is now in progress with Animation.
Due to the Thanksgiving holiday, we expect that we won’t be able to set up a review until late next week
ETA is 2nd December
===
NETWORK – BIND CULLING
Due to some difficult to solve bugs progress has been slowed down on bind culling. This is because it’s proved extremely difficult to reproduce the bugs and find out the cause them.
Progress was also slowed due supporting bug fixes for the Livestream
ETA is 8th December (delayed from 23rd November)
===
There has been some delay in progress over the last week that has impacted the push to the Evocati, the issues have come up due to what we call our “Inclusions Process”. This is a process by which we select the various files and folders that we want to be in the build, and allow us to keep out any files that relate to work still in progress we’re not ready to release yet. This is a slow and manual process that is not without error as we have experienced this week, and also slowed further with the US offices being out on Thursday and Friday for Thanksgiving. However, we’re happy to say that we do seem to be over the worst of this now and are in a good position to catch the last of these problems next week
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(https://cdn.arstechnica.net/wp-content/uploads/sites/3/2016/11/Image004.png)
NEW
(http://i.imgur.com/tZF8Rh2.jpg)
Post by: JohnGorno on November 25, 2016, 04:26:11 PM
What exactly about LoD is persistent? Character progression, base building, point capturing, weapon custimazation? While having "seamless" loading screens?
I can't remember any of those. No, not being persistent. Being existent in the ..game.
Do you know what "persistent" means, within the context of a game? Start there.
To answer your question. Everything in LoD is persistent because it was designed that way from the ground up and from the very start. The world, the server state, the player state (stats, weapons, inventory etc) etc - all of it. That's what an MMO is. If you'd played it, you would know that. http://lodgame.com
Okay then, let's assume for a moment we have two different ideas what the definition of persistent means for the user in a game.
For me that would be for an unrelated example: "Go in the game, destroy a house, get a modification for your gun and exp for your character. When you log of and come back two weeks later the house is still gone (if no one rebuilt it), you still have the mod and the exp on the character."
I played LoD several hours. I found nothing at all besides perhaps broken leaderboards that showed any kind of persistency.
In the game was nothing to capture. Nothing to change on my character. The only weapons I got beyond my starting weapons disappeared once I left the current map or relogged. When I tried to enter space with a ship I got blown away instantly. The only thing I could imagine that could somehow persist where I was not able to test it was the bodies of other dead players.
Post by: dsmart on November 25, 2016, 05:09:59 PM
What exactly about LoD is persistent? Character progression, base building, point capturing, weapon custimazation? While having "seamless" loading screens?
I can't remember any of those. No, not being persistent. Being existent in the ..game.
Do you know what "persistent" means, within the context of a game? Start there.
To answer your question. Everything in LoD is persistent because it was designed that way from the ground up and from the very start. The world, the server state, the player state (stats, weapons, inventory etc) etc - all of it. That's what an MMO is. If you'd played it, you would know that. http://lodgame.com
Okay then, let's assume for a moment we have two different ideas what the definition of persistent means for the user in a game.
For me that would be for an unrelated example: "Go in the game, destroy a house, get a modification for your gun and exp for your character. When you log of and come back two weeks later the house is still gone (if no one rebuilt it), you still have the mod and the exp on the character."
There is only one definition of persistent in a game. Star Citizen didn't invent it, nor have they implemented it. Game is still instanced. So there is that.
Quote
I played LoD several hours. I found nothing at all besides
You have to be specific. What did you expect to "find"?
What has this to do with persistence?
Quote
perhaps broken leaderboards that showed any kind of persistency.
The leaderboards (http://lodgame.com/leaderboards/) work just fine. They always did. Unless you have a TAK account (http://lodgame.com/faqs/start/), your stats won't show on it.
Quote
In the game was nothing to capture.
Such as? There is no capture mechanic in the game, because the world event isn't implemented yet (http://lodgame.com/faqs/world-events/).
What has this to do with persistence?
Quote
Nothing to change on my character.
You're talking about player customization - which the game doesn't have, nor support (http://lodgame.com/faqs/will-i-be-able-to-customize-my-character/).
What has this to do with persistence?
Quote
The only weapons I got beyond my starting weapons disappeared once I left the current map or relogged.
Your inventory is 100% persistent. You always have it.
Anything you pickup in the world, doesn't carry over when you change scenes. That's by design - and that restriction is currently placed on both Starter Kit and TAK accounts for testing and game balancing reasons as indicated here - at the top (http://lodgame.com/changelog/). In the final game, only the Starter Kit will have this restriction.
What has this to do with persistence?
Quote
When I tried to enter space with a ship I got blown away instantly.
That's patently false. Unless you haven't played the Build 00.09.07.15 released on 16-10-04 and which completed Phase I of the space defense systems which only allowed them to fire when fired upon. During implementation and testing, they fired at any target within range.
What has this to do with persistence?
Quote
The only thing I could imagine that could somehow persist where I was not able to test it was the bodies of other dead players.
Dead bodies don't and shouldn't linger. For performance and respawn reasons, they are removed after a few seconds. Just like in every single game, persistent or not.
Again, what has this got to do with persistence? Here, let me help you with that:
- player state
- player stats
- player inventory
- world state
- server state
- jump-in / jump out
Those are the building blocks of a "persistent" game. The entire LoD game world is 100% persistent; which is why you can login to the server at any time, and it would still be running, and on the planet it could be any time of day (dawn, dusk, night etc). You can login see a client or asset in one place, log out, log back in, go to that location and interact with the same client|asset if it's still there. And it was designed and developed that way (http://lodgame.com/faqs/how-many-players-are-supported/) - from the ground up - before we even put any assets in it.
Post by: JohnGorno on November 26, 2016, 08:09:41 AM
Again, what has this got to do with persistence? Here, let me help you with that:
- player state
- player stats
- player inventory
- world state
- server state
- jump-in / jump out
Those are the building blocks of a "persistent" game. The entire LoD game world is 100% persistent; which is why you can login to the server at any time, and it would still be running, and on the planet it could be any time of day (dawn, dusk, night etc). You can login see a client or asset in one place, log out, log back in, go to that location and interact with the same client|asset if it's still there. And it was designed and developed that way (http://lodgame.com/faqs/how-many-players-are-supported/) - from the ground up - before we even put any assets in it.
Alright, so you're saying that the player inventory is persistent and so is the LoD game world to 100%. Now if I pick up weapons from a crate, they go into my inventory, right? When I relogged (or the game crashed randomly), those weapons were gone everytime. To your definition I could "login to the server at any time", and my inventory, because persistent, would still be the one from before when I logged out. What is persistent are the starting weapons I had based on my starting kit. But nothing I picked up in the game was ever carried between two sessions. I always had to pick up new guns when I reentered a map.
When I said "there was nothing" I was referring to the assets you talk about. I mean, what exactly is there on a map to interact with? Weapon crates, medi kits and I think the prison cells on that one carrier.
For changing things on my character: This goes both for visuals like the skins you linked there (which apparently are not in the game so we can't say anything about persistence there) or character progression as described here in the FAQhttp://i.imgur.com/UFBCYIn.png (http://i.imgur.com/UFBCYIn.png). So far I can't find any of that in the game.
To summarize: My points dare to question where persistency is in effect in this game. I named examples where it could be, but isn't.
So what exactly is persistent in that game besides 100% which apparently isn't? That it is one server running 24/7 regardless of how many people are playing? That on that 24/7 server is a timer for when the sun is up and when not? Because that is everything besides aircrafts that actually ever changes the position as far as I can tell.
However, nothing of the character is ever saved between sessions. When I create a character and play for a few hours it means fuck all because as soon as I relog my progress is gone. And given that there are no server events means that this is another point where nothing is happening.
When I log into the game, there must be some reason to do it. Some goal. But without any events or targets to go for, with no progression system at all why would anybody play this game? What is this game then about? Planetside 2 has both. I can level my character, unlock class traits (and switch between classes), unlock weapons and attachements for aircrafts, vehicles and handheld weaponry while playing in a truly persistent enviroment where not only my stats are registered on leaderboards and rewards are gained that persist between sessions. But also every single continent has it's three-faction war with ever changing frontlines that are resembled by capture points across said continents.
From what I gathered that LoD is trying to sell here it is pretty much that, but with a somewhat different setting and the additional layer of space combat - that to my expierence has the same flight model as something other a continent.
Which also makes me think: Why should I go and sit in a fighter and fly around in space? For what reason?
Post by: dsmart on November 26, 2016, 09:54:24 AM
Again, what has this got to do with persistence? Here, let me help you with that:
- player state
- player stats
- player inventory
- world state
- server state
- jump-in / jump out
Those are the building blocks of a "persistent" game. The entire LoD game world is 100% persistent; which is why you can login to the server at any time, and it would still be running, and on the planet it could be any time of day (dawn, dusk, night etc). You can login see a client or asset in one place, log out, log back in, go to that location and interact with the same client|asset if it's still there. And it was designed and developed that way (http://lodgame.com/faqs/how-many-players-are-supported/) - from the ground up - before we even put any assets in it.
Quote
Alright, so you're saying that the player inventory is persistent and so is the LoD game world to 100%.
Yes
Quote
Now if I pick up weapons from a crate, they go into my inventory, right?
Yes - or you won't be able to use/equip them.
Any item you start the game with (e.g. default Starter Kit or TAK items), or pick up in the game world, becomes part of your inventory.
As previously mentioned, currently (due to on-going dev and testing) items picked up in the world or in a pack/crate, are not preserved when you move from one scene (e.g. Heatwave) to another (e.g. Arkangel). Which is also why, when you logout, they are also removed because you don't "own" them. What you "own" is i) what comes in the kit (Starter|TAK) you purchased ii) what you buy in the item shop (via the supply platform) - which is why only those items are preserved/stored in your inventory.
Quote
When I relogged (or the game crashed randomly), those weapons were gone everytime.
A game crashing has no relevance to your inventory storage because it's not stored client-side (on your machine). It's stored on the dB server as soon as you pick it up or if you already own it.
Quote
To your definition I could "login to the server at any time", and my inventory, because persistent, would still be the one from before when I logged out. What is persistent are the starting weapons I had based on my starting kit. But nothing I picked up in the game was ever carried between two sessions. I always had to pick up new guns when I reentered a map.
This was already explained in my previous post; and also above.
Quote
When I said "there was nothing" I was referring to the assets you talk about. I mean, what exactly is there on a map to interact with? Weapon crates, medi kits and I think the prison cells on that one carrier.
If you know how the game works (try reading the docs maybe? (http://lodgame.com/docs/)), you would know what you can interact with, how etc. The game is pure PvP; so there are no missions, quests etc - hence nothing in the world to interact with other than other players, items, weapons, terminals, aircraft, vehicles etc.
e.g. if you want an asset (aircraft or vehicle), you go create it a supply platform. The detention hold in the Starguard carrier are part of a game mechanic related to the Hostile Incarceration (already implemented and works) World Event.
And in the upcoming updates (http://lodgame.com/changelog/) related to the ground vehicles and planetary defense systems, you will be able to use any/all ground vehicles - just like aircraft.
Quote
For changing things on my character: This goes both for visuals like the skins you linked there (which apparently are not in the game so we can't say anything about persistence there)
I already answered this question which is already in the FAQ entry previously linked (http://lodgame.com/faqs/will-i-be-able-to-customize-my-character/).
No.
You can only customize your class.
You will be able to buy one of four (Red, Yellow, Green, Blue) different color schemes for your player’s armor and which you can switch to any time in real-time.
Quote
or character progression as described here in the FAQhttp://i.imgur.com/UFBCYIn.png (http://i.imgur.com/UFBCYIn.png). So far I can't find any of that in the game.
I already answered this question which is already in the FAQ entry previously linked (http://lodgame.com/faqs/how-is-character-progression-handled/).
Character progression is handled in various ways:
Combat Kills:You accumulate these based on combat actions against the enemy.
Combat Experience Points:Through various combat actions (e.g. kills), you gain CEP.
Ranks:The accumulation of CEP awards you various combat ranks and decorations (medals, ribbons). These are also dynamic; in that depending on your CEP count, you can lose rank and decorations over time.
Combat Training Certificates: These are used to improve certain character attributes and skills.
The combination of CEP and CTC is critical to character progression and the combination allows you to build up your character class as you see fit. You can chose to be a stealth player (sniper) whose sole purpose is to aggravate the forces behind enemy lines, while sneaking around and hacking into base units. Or you can choose to be heavy infantry guy with various weapons of mass destruction.
More info: What are CEP and CTC
Quote
To summarize: My points dare to question where persistency is in effect in this game. I named examples where it could be, but isn't.
And you were wrong in every instance. Maybe try reading it all again.
Quote
So what exactly is persistent in that game besides 100% which apparently isn't? That it is one server running 24/7 regardless of how many people are playing? That on that 24/7 server is a timer for when the sun is up and when not? Because that is everything besides aircrafts that actually ever changes the position as far as I can tell.
Wrong. See above
Quote
However, nothing of the character is ever saved between sessions. When I create a character and play for a few hours it means fuck all because as soon as I relog my progress is gone. And given that there are no server events means that this is another point where nothing is happening.
Wrong. See above
Quote
When I log into the game, there must be some reason to do it. Some goal. But without any events or targets to go for, with no progression system at all why would anybody play this game?
The game is still in development. And it's pure PvP.
Quote
What is this game then about? Planetside 2 has both. I can level my character, unlock class traits (and switch between classes), unlock weapons and attachements for aircrafts, vehicles and handheld weaponry while playing in a truly persistent enviroment where not only my stats are registered on leaderboards and rewards are gained that persist between sessions. But also every single continent has it's three-faction war with ever changing frontlines that are resembled by capture points across said continents.
Planetside 2 is a finished game. And we're not making Planetside 2 (plus, we already have All Aspect Warfare); so ofc it has different game modes and features e.g.
- we don't have/need/want "frontlines" because that's not how the game works or was designed
- leaderboards work just fine
- character progression (leveling) works just fine
- character inventory system and stats work just fine
- all the implemented weapons, attachments and items, all work just fine
- all the aircraft work just fine; and vehicles are upcoming
- the World Events (gameplay PvP mods) are designed based on the game's core mechanic
Quote
From what I gathered that LoD is trying to sell here it is pretty much that, but with a somewhat different setting and the additional layer of space combat - that to my expierence has the same flight model as something other a continent.
That argument is like saying Battlefield 1 is like Call Of Duty. It's a silly one.
Quote
Which also makes me think: Why should I go and sit in a fighter and fly around in space? For what reason?
If you don't know why you want to be in a game, there is no reason for you to be playing it. So don't?
The fighter mechanics, unlike the repetitive "go-flip-a-switch" nonsense, are there for PvP space combat. And it's not just between clients, but also against faction owned stations and the carrier which are part of the game's World Events. Those mechanics work just fine. There are no "missions" because it's not that kind of game; wasn't designed to be, and isn't going to be.
Just like all my games, LoD, unlike that other game, isn't trying to, nor aspiring to cater to everyone, nor is it pitched or designed to be a game that's all things to everyone - let alone a BDSSE. It has a specific and distinct focus, and target audience that are not subject to change. You either like it or you don't. If you don't, don't buy it, don't play it. There are many other games to choose from.
Post by: JohnGorno on November 26, 2016, 12:47:56 PM
Again, what has this got to do with persistence? Here, let me help you with that:
- player state
- player stats
- player inventory
- world state
- server state
- jump-in / jump out
Those are the building blocks of a "persistent" game. The entire LoD game world is 100% persistent; which is why you can login to the server at any time, and it would still be running, and on the planet it could be any time of day (dawn, dusk, night etc). You can login see a client or asset in one place, log out, log back in, go to that location and interact with the same client|asset if it's still there. And it was designed and developed that way (http://lodgame.com/faqs/how-many-players-are-supported/) - from the ground up - before we even put any assets in it.QuoteAlright, so you're saying that the player inventory is persistent and so is the LoD game world to 100%.
YesQuoteNow if I pick up weapons from a crate, they go into my inventory, right?
Yes - or you won't be able to use/equip them.
Any item you start the game with (e.g. default Starter Kit or TAK items), or pick up in the game world, becomes part of your inventory.
As previously mentioned, currently (due to on-going dev and testing) items picked up in the world or in a pack/crate, are not preserved when you move from one scene (e.g. Heatwave) to another (e.g. Arkangel). Which is also why, when you logout, they are also removed because you don't "own" them. What you "own" is i) what comes in the kit (Starter|TAK) you purchased ii) what you buy in the item shop (via the supply platform) - which is why only those items are preserved/stored in your inventory.QuoteWhen I relogged (or the game crashed randomly), those weapons were gone everytime.
A game crashing has no relevance to your inventory storage because it's not stored client-side (on your machine). It's stored on the dB server as soon as you pick it up or if you already own it.QuoteTo your definition I could "login to the server at any time", and my inventory, because persistent, would still be the one from before when I logged out. What is persistent are the starting weapons I had based on my starting kit. But nothing I picked up in the game was ever carried between two sessions. I always had to pick up new guns when I reentered a map.
This was already explained in my previous post; and also above.QuoteWhen I said "there was nothing" I was referring to the assets you talk about. I mean, what exactly is there on a map to interact with? Weapon crates, medi kits and I think the prison cells on that one carrier.
If you know how the game works (try reading the docs maybe? (http://lodgame.com/docs/)), you would know what you can interact with, how etc. The game is pure PvP; so there are no missions, quests etc - hence nothing in the world to interact with other than other players, items, weapons, terminals, aircraft, vehicles etc.
e.g. if you want an asset (aircraft or vehicle), you go create it a supply platform. The detention hold in the Starguard carrier are part of a game mechanic related to the Hostile Incarceration (already implemented and works) World Event.
And in the upcoming updates (http://lodgame.com/changelog/) related to the ground vehicles and planetary defense systems, you will be able to use any/all ground vehicles - just like aircraft.QuoteFor changing things on my character: This goes both for visuals like the skins you linked there (which apparently are not in the game so we can't say anything about persistence there)
I already answered this question which is already in the FAQ entry previously linked (http://lodgame.com/faqs/will-i-be-able-to-customize-my-character/).
No.
You can only customize your class.
You will be able to buy one of four (Red, Yellow, Green, Blue) different color schemes for your player’s armor and which you can switch to any time in real-time.Quoteor character progression as described here in the FAQhttp://i.imgur.com/UFBCYIn.png (http://i.imgur.com/UFBCYIn.png). So far I can't find any of that in the game.
I already answered this question which is already in the FAQ entry previously linked (http://lodgame.com/faqs/how-is-character-progression-handled/).
Character progression is handled in various ways:
Combat Kills:You accumulate these based on combat actions against the enemy.
Combat Experience Points:Through various combat actions (e.g. kills), you gain CEP.
Ranks:The accumulation of CEP awards you various combat ranks and decorations (medals, ribbons). These are also dynamic; in that depending on your CEP count, you can lose rank and decorations over time.
Combat Training Certificates: These are used to improve certain character attributes and skills.
The combination of CEP and CTC is critical to character progression and the combination allows you to build up your character class as you see fit. You can chose to be a stealth player (sniper) whose sole purpose is to aggravate the forces behind enemy lines, while sneaking around and hacking into base units. Or you can choose to be heavy infantry guy with various weapons of mass destruction.
More info: What are CEP and CTCQuoteTo summarize: My points dare to question where persistency is in effect in this game. I named examples where it could be, but isn't.
And you were wrong in every instance. Maybe try reading it all again.QuoteSo what exactly is persistent in that game besides 100% which apparently isn't? That it is one server running 24/7 regardless of how many people are playing? That on that 24/7 server is a timer for when the sun is up and when not? Because that is everything besides aircrafts that actually ever changes the position as far as I can tell.
Wrong. See aboveQuoteHowever, nothing of the character is ever saved between sessions. When I create a character and play for a few hours it means fuck all because as soon as I relog my progress is gone. And given that there are no server events means that this is another point where nothing is happening.
Wrong. See aboveQuoteWhen I log into the game, there must be some reason to do it. Some goal. But without any events or targets to go for, with no progression system at all why would anybody play this game?
The game is still in development. And it's pure PvP.QuoteWhat is this game then about? Planetside 2 has both. I can level my character, unlock class traits (and switch between classes), unlock weapons and attachements for aircrafts, vehicles and handheld weaponry while playing in a truly persistent enviroment where not only my stats are registered on leaderboards and rewards are gained that persist between sessions. But also every single continent has it's three-faction war with ever changing frontlines that are resembled by capture points across said continents.
Planetside 2 is a finished game. And we're not making Planetside 2 (plus, we already have All Aspect Warfare); so ofc it has different game modes and features e.g.
- we don't have/need/want "frontlines" because that's not how the game works or was designed
- leaderboards work just fine
- character progression (leveling) works just fine
- character inventory system and stats work just fine
- all the implemented weapons, attachments and items, all work just fine
- all the aircraft work just fine; and vehicles are upcoming
- the World Events (gameplay PvP mods) are designed based on the game's core mechanicQuoteFrom what I gathered that LoD is trying to sell here it is pretty much that, but with a somewhat different setting and the additional layer of space combat - that to my expierence has the same flight model as something other a continent.
That argument is like saying Battlefield 1 is like Call Of Duty. It's a silly one.QuoteWhich also makes me think: Why should I go and sit in a fighter and fly around in space? For what reason?
If you don't know why you want to be in a game, there is no reason for you to be playing it. So don't?
The fighter mechanics, unlike the repetitive "go-flip-a-switch" nonsense, are there for PvP space combat. And it's not just between clients, but also against faction owned stations and the carrier which are part of the game's World Events. Those mechanics work just fine. There are no "missions" because it's not that kind of game; wasn't designed to be, and isn't going to be.
Just like all my games, LoD, unlike that other game, isn't trying to, nor aspiring to cater to everyone, nor is it pitched or designed to be a game that's all things to everyone - let alone a BDSSE. It has a specific and distinct focus, and target audience that are not subject to change. You either like it or you don't. If you don't, don't buy it, don't play it. There are many other games to choose from.
So to summarize the fact that in this 100% persistent game currently nothing of value besides leaderboards are persistent and things that are actually relevant like character progression are not. Or actual goals in the game like the server events where you at the one point say they are not in the game and then the next post that they're "already implemented and work"ing? You can link to your FAQ all you want, it doesn't change the fact that those printed words do not reflect the reality of those mechanics simply failing to be exist.
And when you pulled a Trump and only said "WRONG" you basically said that ther is not one server running 24/7 regardless of how many people are playing? That on that 24/7 server is no timer for when the sun is up and when not? Which together with the crates lying around at predetermined places that are not moveable and created aircrafts would be the only parts that actually showed persistency at any level here?
Also, I was wrong about that nothing about my character is saved? But then you said it yourself "Nothing about the character is saved"?
To the question "Why would anybody play the game if there is no content to achieve" you answered with "It's in development.". What are you trying to say with that? Since when is "being in development" the reason to play the game?
The comparison to PS2 is deflected with a BF1 to CoD comparison for what reasons exactly? The latter are vastly different in mapsizes, gamemodes, hell, CoD doesn't even have vehicles, only kill streaks. In Battlefield you are the Killstreak. For this comparison to be legit here you'd have to say that both games do not have (promised) fights on huge persistent ever changing maps on foot, on air and in vehicles, which they both try to achieve. The only difference here is that LoD also wants to feature naval warfare (which does not exist in the game) and the space settings which are the same aircrafts now in an area without the ground.
So yes, a comparison is VERY legit as there are design-wise at best with ever changing world events something else that LoD eventually wants to offer while PS2 strictly goes for PvP around capture points and ultimately continental lockdown.
Post by: dsmart on November 26, 2016, 05:07:20 PM
I know who you are, and I've seen the discussion and your involvement on Reddit (/r/ds) discussion regarding this forum/thread.
I had made it clear before (http://www.dereksmart.com/forum/index.php?topic=19.msg146#msg146), that this forum is not for the discussion of Line Of Defense; as there are no less than three official places to discuss it with those who actually own and are helping us playtest it.
From your statements, it is clear that you neither own, nor have you played LoD. Because anyone who has both owned and played it at some point in time, would have the answer to everything I already stated here; and would also know about the game, how it works etc - especially since it comes with full documentation (inline and on the website). All you're doing it taking statements from your band of brothers in an attempt to i) troll me ii) make a Star Citizen discussion, about LoD. This despite the fact that the games have nothing in common; other than the fact that they have a space component. To be clear, one is independently funded and will be completed, and the other is crowd-funding; and by all accounts, stands no such chance of ever being completed. The attempts to compare both games has always been a hilarious non-starter; but here we are.
Your arguments are ludicrous, and your trying to fit a square peg into a round hole, simply isn't going to work. When someone isn't willing to debate and discuss in good faith, it is pointless to continue to engage them because, as per your posts, nothing the other party says, will ever be acceptable because it goes against the narrative and the intent of the other party. People like that have no place here. Take that shit to Reddit and the RSI forums.
So...
So to summarize the fact that in this 100% persistent game currently nothing of value besides leaderboards are persistent and things that are actually relevant like character progression are not.
Wrong. You are free to ignore everything previously written, or the fact that the game (which you clearly haven't played) has all the elements previously mentioned - that won't change the facts.
Quote
Or actual goals in the game like the server events where you at the one point say they are not in the game and then the next post that they're "already implemented and work"ing? You can link to your FAQ all you want, it doesn't change the fact that those printed words do not reflect the reality of those mechanics simply failing to be exist.
Wrong. And clear evidence that you haven't played the game. If you had, you would know that the game has five World Events (http://lodgame.com/faqs/world-events/); two (Incursion, Hostile Incarceration) of which are already implemented and working. While the other three rely on components not yet implemented due to the fact that, well, the game is still in development (and we actually have an accurate roadmap (http://lodgame.com/roadmap/)).
And "character progression" has no relevance to the game modes. That involves EP (implemented) and ranks (NYI). Nothing else. There is no leveling up. There are no "skills". This is a pure twitch based PvP game with various character classes (all with unique attributes). And as much as you want to ignore the FAQ, character progression is accurately documented (http://lodgame.com/faqs/how-is-character-progression-handled/) there as well.
So maybe try reading the "printed words" again. Slowly this time.
Quote
And when you pulled a Trump and only said "WRONG" you basically said that ther is not one server running 24/7 regardless of how many people are playing? That on that 24/7 server is no timer for when the sun is up and when not? Which together with the crates lying around at predetermined places that are not moveable and created aircrafts would be the only parts that actually showed persistency at any level here?
Those are your words. You can mangle them all you like, but it won't change what I've written, nor the facts.
The game is 100% persistent. It was designed and developed that way. It's not something that go cobbled on top.
WHAT IS LINE OF DEFENSE? (http://lodgame.com/faqs/what-is-line-of-defense/)
Line Of Defense is a multi-platform (PC, XBox One, PS4) sci-fi multiplayer online game in which two (Galactic Command military and Insurgent paramilitary) military teams wage a massive war. Battles take place on a planet and in space as fps infantry, or with the use of various air, land, sea, and space vehicles.
The game’s hybrid tech supports both dedicated server (standard massive multiplayer) as well as peer-to-peer (client hosts and plays) session hosting for PC and consoles. It supports a large number of players in a persistent, non-sharded, non-instanced, game world.
The game is designed and developed by the small indie team at 3000AD, Inc, the leader in high-end advanced sci-fi based games. It went into active development in 2010. In 2011, we started to build a new custom game engine powered by Havok Vision Engine (previously Trinigy Game Engine) and a variety of other middleware technologies. You can read more about this and the game’s visual style, in our dev blogs (1, 2, 3, 4)
The game has also spawned an RTS companion game, Line Of Defense Tactics, which is currently out on various platforms, including Xbox One.
There are also a series of comic books created in co-operation with DC Comics.
The server which runs the game world is 24-7, uses timers (yikes! how else could you possibly do it I wonder!), is just that: persistent. If you owned or have played the game, you would know all this because even the planet has a 3hr time span (http://lodgame.com/faqs/how-is-the-game-world-divided/) (compared to Earth's 24hrs). I'm not sure where you think all those screen shots (by us and other users) showing different TOD came from or were generated. And if you had played the game, you'd know all of this because no matter how many times you login to the game, it will always been at a different TOD.
The packs (weapons (http://lodgame.com/asset/portable-weapon-pack/), medical (http://lodgame.com/asset/portable-medical-pack/), supply (http://lodgame.com/asset/portable-supply-pack/)) were put there as a way to give testers the ability to obtain and test various game assets (weapons, attachments, inventory) quickly, including how storage is handled. They were implemented in Build 00.09.03.09 released 02-25-15 (http://lodgame.com/changelog-archives/). Again, if you owned and have played the game, you'd know this - because it's in the docs. And even though they are static (like all such elements in all games), their content storage is not. They change and replenish over time. Again, if you'd played the game, you'd know that because you won't be able to get the same items all the time.
Clearly you don't know anything about "persistence" and are just arguing for the sake of arguing because it burns that Star Citizen has zero persistence; and there's no getting around that.
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Also, I was wrong about that nothing about my character is saved? But then you said it yourself "Nothing about the character is saved"?
Try reading it again. It's in English. If English is not your first language, ask someone to translate it for you.
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To the question "Why would anybody play the game if there is no content to achieve" you answered with "It's in development.". What are you trying to say with that? Since when is "being in development" the reason to play the game?
Another one of your stupid arguments. You posed the question. I gave you an answer. And that answer bears no relevance to what you are not stating. Your commentary was about the game in it's current state. And my answer was specific to it, in that the game is still in development and anyone who wants to play it now, has to play what's there.
Also, the game is PvP. Do you even know what that means? Sure you do; but you're just going around in circles, while trying to fit a square peg into a round hole. If you don't know what you can "achieve" in a game of this type, then you probably shouldn't be playing it. Ask yourself this: what do you "achieve" in Star Citizen which playing Arena Commander, racing, the PU. Think hard, it might hurt, by go for it.
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The comparison to PS2 is deflected with a BF1 to CoD comparison for what reasons exactly? The latter are vastly different in mapsizes, gamemodes, hell, CoD doesn't even have vehicles, only kill streaks. In Battlefield you are the Killstreak. For this comparison to be legit here you'd have to say that both games do not have (promised) fights on huge persistent ever changing maps on foot, on air and in vehicles, which they both try to achieve. The only difference here is that LoD also wants to feature naval warfare (which does not exist in the game) and the space settings which are the same aircrafts now in an area without the ground.
That's on you. I never brought up any comparisons, you did. And it was just as ludicrous as everything else you're writing. Go back and read what you wrote. And if you don't under why I made that Battlefield vs COD comparison, then you're truly clueless and/or ignorant. And in which case, you're on your own.
Quote
So yes, a comparison is VERY legit as there are design-wise at best with ever changing world events something else that LoD eventually wants to offer while PS2 strictly goes for PvP around capture points and ultimately continental lockdown.
Actually no, it's not. Just because you think, write, or say it, doesn't make it so. And again, if you had actually played LoD, or know enough about it, you'd understand why the comparison (as you've stated them) are completely and utterly ludicrous. Might as well compare Star Citizen to Elite Dangerous; which is even more hilarious.
Anyway, I think this pretty much covers it. If you want to discuss LoD, go to one of the places where is being discussed, and engage people who own and play it. Just be sure to let them know that you don't actually own it, we can tell from the Steam account.
Post by: dsmart on November 28, 2016, 08:51:55 AM
Post by: dsmart on November 28, 2016, 12:17:07 PM
Post by: dsmart on November 28, 2016, 01:21:03 PM
Post by: Stan on November 29, 2016, 12:50:54 AM
I think some of the disconnect is with people who are either a) new to the project, or b) casual observers. They look at the site, they look up Chris's history (but only scratching the surface, oh look, he made Wing Commander, I heard of that), they read some gamer articles, and the natural conclusion, even a logical one, is "OK this game looks good, and it is in development. 4 years is fine, it will probably take longer.)
Can we really expect the casual observer to understand what's really happening at CIG? What Chris's actual game development history and credentials reveal? Can we expect the average person to know, just by looking, how badly this studio has been approaching the project? How much money has been blown by filming millions of dollars of motion capture before the game engine is working? Failing to even know what anyone will DO in this game before making tons of ships to sell? The fact that there's no flight model or working anything? And over 100 other little factoids that reveal that this isn't actually a development studio - it's a cargo cult.
The average person reads articles, sees screenshots, and assumes what 99% of the planet assumes - a developer is working on a game. They simply look at what actual game developers and publishers are doing, and use that template to extrapolate what they think will happen with CIG.
CIG's business model relies on this mistake occurring indefinitely. Once they release anything concrete, people will see this project for what it really is. Then the real fun begins.
This is what makes the whole press coverage of SC extremely damaging.
It is a bit like the US election. Instead of the media reporting what is going on they are giving SC plenty of free uncritical coverage that generates more sales.
Post by: dsmart on November 29, 2016, 06:59:00 AM
I think some of the disconnect is with people who are either a) new to the project, or b) casual observers. They look at the site, they look up Chris's history (but only scratching the surface, oh look, he made Wing Commander, I heard of that), they read some gamer articles, and the natural conclusion, even a logical one, is "OK this game looks good, and it is in development. 4 years is fine, it will probably take longer.)
Can we really expect the casual observer to understand what's really happening at CIG? What Chris's actual game development history and credentials reveal? Can we expect the average person to know, just by looking, how badly this studio has been approaching the project? How much money has been blown by filming millions of dollars of motion capture before the game engine is working? Failing to even know what anyone will DO in this game before making tons of ships to sell? The fact that there's no flight model or working anything? And over 100 other little factoids that reveal that this isn't actually a development studio - it's a cargo cult.
The average person reads articles, sees screenshots, and assumes what 99% of the planet assumes - a developer is working on a game. They simply look at what actual game developers and publishers are doing, and use that template to extrapolate what they think will happen with CIG.
CIG's business model relies on this mistake occurring indefinitely. Once they release anything concrete, people will see this project for what it really is. Then the real fun begins.
This is what makes the whole press coverage of SC extremely damaging.
It is a bit like the US election. Instead of the media reporting what is going on they are giving SC plenty of free uncritical coverage that generates more sales.
Right. Thing is that most of the mainstream media have caught up to the fact that they're going to be on the losing end of this. Kinda like all the NMS hype and noise. So they either have stopped covering the game entirely, or only just post top level news verbatim. Hence all those fake news from a reputation management company that are now flooding the Internet.
Post by: dsmart on November 29, 2016, 03:53:58 PM
We're getting word that 2.6 has been released to Evocati and there is now a Reddit thread with confirmation from CIG (https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/comments/5flh6t/260_and_spectrum_closed_testing_update/).
CIG said that 2.6 (which was due out since June 2016, including Star Marine which was due out in April 2015) would be released in 2016. That was even as they were promoting 3.0.
That would mean dev -> Evocati -> standard -> live. All in 2016. That's what the current schedule (https://robertsspaceindustries.com/schedule-report) says, even with the recent change as per these diffs (https://www.diffchecker.com/ucNCNlQy).
Most of us already knew that 2.6 being released in 2016 was a fantasy dream, which, like 3.0, CIG made up in order to boost backer confidence in order to keep getting funding. I called that one back on Sept 13th (http://www.dereksmart.org/forums/topic/sc-scoop/#post-4757) and again on Nov 2nd (http://www.dereksmart.com/forums/topic/sc-scoop/#post-4459).
If Evocati are going to get 2.6, this late in Nov, it stands to reason that 2.6 going live in 2016 isn't happening. Which, depending on how broken it is, would mean a live release sometime in 2017. Which means no SQ42 in Q1/17 either. I don't even.
Seemingly the 3.0 (aka Jesus Patch) is now all but a memory.
(http://imgur.com/qrXPvwS.jpg)
UPDATE: Today's Evocati release doesn't include Star Marine. Yeah.
Post by: Joseph on November 30, 2016, 01:12:21 AM
What's the source on 2.6 not having Star Marine? If so, that's just pathetic.
Post by: Darklegend1 on November 30, 2016, 05:17:05 AM
Hey Derek,
What's the source on 2.6 not having Star Marine? If so, that's just pathetic.
i feel sorry for the devs of star citizen due to roberts and his empty promises...even after working hard the devs get burned everytime. :rip:
and trust me their funding wont stop as they will pull another fake rabbit out of their hat on next livestream showing that lone mission on sq 42 and the big whales will again loose their mind and will dump more money into cig basket.
realty is their priority is not making the game but the presentations and ship advertisement(hate those).
keep widening the scope of the game and one will always have the excuse not to deliver ever.
They have 137+ million dollars for christs sake they should be deploying all their men power on delivering not just gasping more and more money. there is a limit to milking
Post by: Kyrt on November 30, 2016, 07:02:44 AM
They have 137+ million dollars for christs sake they should be deploying all their men power on delivering not just gasping more and more money. there is a limit to milking
One could argue that what they should be doing is what they have been doing.
Focussing effort on creating the tools needed to create the game, while working on enough" content" to ensure a steady - albeit unreliable - revenue stream
The problems here are that Roberts promised to deliver in 2 years what seems likely to need 8, if all the features are added, especially given that he also needed to create the tools to deliver the game, such as the planet generation system and the actual game engine. We all know CIG are working on the netcode and I've been told that is a major aspect of the game that impacts on other systems -not to mention the flight model which on would have assumed would have been locked down some time ago if they hoped to release SQ42 in 2017.
That also makes me wonder if some of the other aspects of the game - cutscenes, motion captures, scripting and so on - might have been done too early, perhaps as a way to provide work for the developers and whether or changes will need to be made to account for developmental progression such as this
Post by: dsmart on November 30, 2016, 07:14:10 AM
Hey Derek,
What's the source on 2.6 not having Star Marine? If so, that's just pathetic.
Myself, and several sources. It wasn't in the update push last night. Apparently some of the files are in fact in the build, but SM itself - as of last night - was NOT enabled (it has a separate menu like Arena Commander)
Official CIG announcement on Reddit (https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/comments/5flh6t/260_and_spectrum_closed_testing_update/). No word on SM
Official CIG announcement on RSI website (https://forums.robertsspaceindustries.com/discussion/comment/7307185/#Comment_7307185). No word on SM
Also this Reddit post was deleted shortly after
(http://i.imgur.com/RxmDaZ3.png)
Post by: dsmart on November 30, 2016, 08:24:05 AM
Also added links to my discussions with Ben Parry one of the rendering programmers on the project. This was sparked by this discussion (http://www.dereksmart.com/forum/index.php?topic=9.msg289#msg289) about the SC world size.
1 (https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php/259596-The-Star-Citizen-Thread-v5?p=4821808&viewfull=1#post4821808),2 (https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php/259596-The-Star-Citizen-Thread-v5?p=4821808&viewfull=1#post4821808),3 (https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php/259596-The-Star-Citizen-Thread-v5?p=4825297&viewfull=1#post4825297),4 (https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php/259596-The-Star-Citizen-Thread-v5?p=4825525&viewfull=1#post4825525),5 (https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php/259596-The-Star-Citizen-Thread-v5?p=4835991&viewfull=1#post4835991),6 (https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php/259596-The-Star-Citizen-Thread-v5?p=4838364&viewfull=1#post4838364),7 (https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php/259596-The-Star-Citizen-Thread-v5?p=4843554&viewfull=1#post4843554),8 (https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php/259596-The-Star-Citizen-Thread-v5?p=4845610&viewfull=1#post4845610)
Post by: dsmart on November 30, 2016, 10:40:11 AM
Meanwhile, some backers are spreading false rumors that it is released.....just because they claim to have seen some file assets in the download. :D
Post by: somedude on November 30, 2016, 11:02:33 AM
For a $137 million project that likes to tout "openness", it's interesting that since 2.6 was released to Evocati yesterday, backers have no clue what's in it (http://"https://forums.robertsspaceindustries.com/discussion/comment/7307699/#Comment_7307699"). Particularly it doesn't contain Star Marine; and CIG never even mentioned it.
Meanwhile, some backers are spreading false rumors that it is released.....just because they claim to have seen some file assets in the download. :D
Good, let them spread the word. Tears will be harvested when they'll open their eyes ;-)
Post by: dsmart on November 30, 2016, 03:45:34 PM
In fact, now even the /r/StarCitizen/ denizens are actively stifling any information about this. My guess is that by the time word is widespread, they're hoping that CIG would have released it as an update.
Just now posted on my Discord channel:
Quote
the subreddit is cracking down on anything pertaining to whether or not star marine is in the release pretty hard. That post from yesterday was deleted. two threads about it have been removed. their posting guidelines about evocati leaks are the following: "When an Evocati testing session begins, information about it may not be posted until one month after the end of the session in question. Exceptions to the rule include posting the fact that an Evocati session has started, and very basic information regarding the Evocati session theme (e.g. "Balance is being redone." or "3.0 Evocati testing has begun")." I would consider whether or not the main component of the patch is actually in the patch to be pretty basic info but I guess not..
It goes like this: dev (pushed by devs for testing) -> QA (internal QA) -> Evocati (usually the same build as QA) -> wide testing (out of Evocati to larger group, usually subscribers) -> live (wide public release)
Like all builds, the Evocati builds have a unique internal build number that is incremented with each update. The updates during the Evocati test phase, go through the normal test cycle.
And it's all one build. They don't send different builds to different groups.
This release of 2.6 sans Star Marine indicates to me that either i) they want to test other things first before pushing it to Evocati from SQ or ii) it's so badly broken, that it's never coming out this year.
Note that they had slated Dec 8th as the official release. That date pushes up against the holiday sales. So this preemptive move to push 2.6 to Evocati, to me, is yet another carrot stick ploy by CIG to boost confidence during the upcoming sale, then post-sale, announce that SM isn't coming after all, let alone 2.6 going wide. Mark my words.
It's horrible. And this sort of thing is why it is hilarious to me that whales keep funding this project.
And here is Ben Parry saying he can't even talk about whether or not SM is in the 2.6 build (https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php/259596-The-Star-Citizen-Thread-v5?p=4846507&viewfull=1#post4846507). And my response (https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php/259596-The-Star-Citizen-Thread-v5?p=4847273&viewfull=1#post4847273).
Quote
WRT Star Marine, contents of evocati builds are NDA'd, but also I don't work in CS, QA or production, so why would I know?
LATEST: /r/StarCitizen_Leaks/ (https://www.reddit.com/r/Starcitizen_Leaks/comments/5fnd8p/evocati_leaks_updated_regularly/) (<--- run by a known Shitizen, so approach with caution)
Post by: Kyrt on November 30, 2016, 04:48:53 PM
What I want to know is if it will be in 2.6 when it is "released".
I would guess that CIG would very much want to include least some form of SM so....unless it is badly broken...SM will be in 2.6 in some form.
Having said that...it makes no sense to not include SM in the current build unless it were badly broken. IF it isn't in the build...that siggests it osn't ready for release and if it were close to being fixed, holding nack the testing so a full version could be tested wouldn't be a bad idea.
Post by: Scruffpuff on November 30, 2016, 05:49:27 PM
TBH...I don't really care whether or not it is in this build.
What I want to know is if it will be in 2.6 when it is "released".
I would guess that CIG would very much want to include least some form of SM so....unless it is badly broken...SM will be in 2.6 in some form.
Having said that...it makes no sense to not include SM in the current build unless it were badly broken. IF it isn't in the build...that suggests it isn't ready for release and if it were close to being fixed, holding back the testing so a full version could be tested wouldn't be a bad idea.
Well that's the situation CIG has placed themselves in by relying on faith and continued donations to attempt to develop this game. Star Marine is not in this build because it's badly broken, and they can't afford for people to see it in the condition it's in, or it threatens funding. Even if it's close to being fixed (which for all I know it could be), they can't hold back the release because they promised the "2.6" regardless of what it contains - to delay it would affect backer faith, and threaten funding.
It's all about keeping up appearances, and with the product they've got in their hands, it's really a no-win situation for CIG. Delay the patch and threaten faith, or release buggy Star Marine and threaten faith? Thus we have the solution: release "2.6" with Star Marine "coming soon."
Post by: Kyrt on December 01, 2016, 12:39:46 AM
TBH...I don't really care whether or not it is in this build.
What I want to know is if it will be in 2.6 when it is "released".
I would guess that CIG would very much want to include least some form of SM so....unless it is badly broken...SM will be in 2.6 in some form.
Having said that...it makes no sense to not include SM in the current build unless it were badly broken. IF it isn't in the build...that suggests it isn't ready for release and if it were close to being fixed, holding back the testing so a full version could be tested wouldn't be a bad idea.
Well that's the situation CIG has placed themselves in by relying on faith and continued donations to attempt to develop this game. Star Marine is not in this build because it's badly broken, and they can't afford for people to see it in the condition it's in, or it threatens funding. Even if it's close to being fixed (which for all I know it could be), they can't hold back the release because they promised the "2.6" regardless of what it contains - to delay it would affect backer faith, and threaten funding.
It's all about keeping up appearances, and with the product they've got in their hands, it's really a no-win situation for CIG. Delay the patch and threaten faith, or release buggy Star Marine and threaten faith? Thus we have the solution: release "2.6" with Star Marine "coming soon."
Maybe....I can't say why SM wouldn't be in the build, if the rumours are true. Not being ready...ie broken...would be a good one but the correct thing to do would be to hold it back completely rather than patch it in later and restart the testing phase.
So...either the rumours are wrong and it is in 2.6, or it is broken and won't be in 2.6 or it is broken and will be patched in later.
I still think CIG really really really want to release 2.6 with SM in some form. I think not having it in would threaten funding as people are expecting it and it has been shown. I don't think people would accept the explanation it is so broken they can't even showcase the version they showed off.
Of course, there could be problems integrating SM into the main build but again, if that were the case, pushing 2.6 out now for testing instead of letting the evos wait a couple of weeks while the build is fixed would seem to be more of a marketing ploy, to get some news into the stream before the Christmas period starts.
Personally, I think that unless SM is really, really broken that there will be some form of SM in the release version of 2.6. It might be buggy and released with a health warning and missing most features...but i think it likely it will be there.
2.6 with SM has been promised for months. It's the main feature backers have been waiting on. It would be a sign that SM is in real trouble if it were delayed till 3.0.
I don't know if the Evocati build has SM. It apparently has some of the files if nothing else so it seems likely the general release will include it. In what form? I can't say but I think it very likely it will be released.
Post by: Darklegend1 on December 01, 2016, 01:51:42 AM
i dont know if sm is broken or not but they already have tested flight changes with evocati so i dont know what the evocati is supposed to check in this build .
if releasing this build without sm was cig plan then they would have kept open about it , even made statements like" to adhere to the high fidelity experience we want to offer you we are testing the build in stages" but they didnt and are quiet about it means....
Post by: dsmart on December 01, 2016, 06:55:00 AM
All of a sudden, saying that "Star Marine isn't in 2.6" is somehow not true because the "files exist in the build".
It's astonishing.
Not only did they construct a GIF (not even a video) of hacked images, but someone actually got solo play working by hacking the build and posting a video of it. There, SM exists! har! har! har!
I am going to say it again. This project is FUBAR. It's only a matter of time now before it all comes apart.
The SM debacle is just another part of the fiasco. The module was already deprecated over a year ago. Now imagine you're a dev working on such a module, which now needs to be brought back because it's the only tangible release for the year, seeing as SC and SQ42 were already a bust. Now you have to make that old code, work with the new code. This is where we are. There is no plausible reason for SM to be brought back, even after croberts himself went on the record saying that it was already in the PU.
So, this WHOLE year, with SC and SQ42 a bust, SM is the only thing they've got that shows any sort of tangible "progress"
Basically, 400 people with over $130+ million couldn't produce a stand-alone fps module using an engine built for an fps. Yeah.
Star Marine solo play using hacked files as per this Reddit thread (https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/comments/5fscye/looks_like_anybody_can_download_the_26_build_and/) which I posted yesterday:
The reality of the 2.6 :
Post by: dsmart on December 01, 2016, 07:37:32 AM
Post by: Rogerio on December 01, 2016, 08:25:47 AM
Someone made a Star Citizen progress chart (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1olftkGcAokAh1B_fSic-23_AojZvFvfZvgi2bQ7-GLo/edit#gid=621188584)
This is a good resource to check out the promised features!
But there is an inherent problem with the green checked features in which it says they were completed, what I mean is, those features that are tagged as complete, will mean nothing at all when they ultimately fold the project.
So all in all, until they release EVERYTHING as promised, all the child and parent features, complete or incomplete at the moment, will mean nothing.
I feel for the genuine backers who were led to part money based on pie-in-the-sky dreams and lies.
But since the start of your blogs and research into this subject, all the subsequent backers/whales/shitizens who were fleeced out of their money, those I have no pity at all as they got plenty of warning and were told countless times where to look for the big red flag waving at them, at the sound of the loud sirens ringing.
When this FUBARED attempt at a game folds, the amount of salty tears seasoning my popcorn bucket will be glorious! :D :lesnick: :sandance:
Post by: dsmart on December 01, 2016, 09:39:07 AM
Original GIF video (http://i.imgur.com/Og8f5nz.gifv).
ATV stream video where it was thought to have been captured/exported from (https://youtu.be/3rcWkqliP6A)
NOTE: Someone said that the Black bar at the top (in the GIF) is the ATV logo; though it may be the client score/count or something.
UPDATE: Another Goon has now pointed out that the GIF is actually not from ATV...
(https://i.imgur.com/61LcD4G.png)
But appears to be from the previously leaked (via file hacking of the Evocati build) single-player SM build. Which goes back to what I was saying that the GIF was manipulated to make it look like multiplayer, when it's single player.
(https://i.imgur.com/iOtYEwx.png)
I am going to say it again. This project is FUBAR. It's only a matter of time now before it all comes apart.
The SM debacle is just another part of the fiasco. The module was already deprecated over a year ago. Now imagine you're a dev working on such a module, which now needs to be brought back because it's the only tangible release for the year, seeing as SC and SQ42 were already a bust. Now you have to make that old code, work with the new code. This is where we are. There is no plausible reason for SM to be brought back, even after croberts himself went on the record saying that it was already in the PU.
So, this WHOLE year, with SC and SQ42 a bust, SM is the only thing they've got that shows any sort of tangible "progress"
Basically, 400 people with over $130+ million couldn't produce a stand-alone fps module using an engine built for an fps. Yeah.
Star Marine solo play using hacked files as per this Reddit thread (https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/comments/5fscye/looks_like_anybody_can_download_the_26_build_and/) which I posted yesterday:
The reality of the 2.6 :
Post by: dsmart on December 01, 2016, 12:14:58 PM
Quote
I disagree. Even if CIG would state that SM is active and playable, Derek and his lackeys will simply claim that it is only active in a new build and still wasn't active on day one.
No amount of proof will be enough for Derek and his lackeys, unless CIG states was in before something is in the hands of the Evocati. And even that wouldn't be enough. CIG would need to remove the NDA completely to make Derek shut up about something not being in. Frankly, I think that is actually what Derek wants. He is saying all this to get the NDA removed. With the NDA removed he probably hopes that the media will again report about the patches, especially on how buggy it is. All Derek does has an ulterior motive to try to cause a refund cascade.
Quote
The video isn't proof that SM is activated "in this build". Its only proof that the assest and gameplay mode are in there. Technically he's right; as long as CIG (or de avocado's) can't confirm that SM is "active and playable" in the current build it's not there. (or is it....... schrodingers star marine?)
https://www.reddit.com/r/DerekSmart/comments/5fvr2a/i_know_that_you_guys_are_desperate_to_create_as/dano0m6/ (https://www.reddit.com/r/DerekSmart/comments/5fvr2a/i_know_that_you_guys_are_desperate_to_create_as/dano0m6/)
(http://i.imgur.com/trkbAib.jpg)
Post by: dsmart on December 01, 2016, 12:21:07 PM
From a presumably disgruntled caterpillar owner on r/starcitizen_leaks
(http://puu.sh/sAHeg/6305a4ccdc.jpg)
PARKING
SENSOR
NOTE: SM is totally in, but we won't get any screen shots of it; just screen shots of the ship everything is complaining about. :laugh:
Post by: Joseph on December 01, 2016, 12:40:54 PM
Post by: iHover on December 01, 2016, 01:37:20 PM
Post by: dsmart on December 01, 2016, 01:57:19 PM
(https://forums.somethingawful.com/attachment.php?postid=466979403)
Oh, guess what? Latest AtV, not a peep about whether or not SM is in Evocati's 2.6 release.
In today's AtV (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bmv6iS5tFeA), Sean Tracy had this to say. And NO indication as to whether or not SM is actually enabled in the current 2.6 Evocati build.
"In addition to testing Star Marine and new ships like the Herald, the 85X and the Caterpillar, they’re also going to be helping test the web version of Spectrum. There’s a lot of kinks to work out still, but so far they’ve already done a lot to help us find and tackle bugs."
Post by: jeezontorst on December 02, 2016, 07:40:51 AM
I’ve spent 150 hours or so playing Empyrion: Survival Evolved in recent months, it’s still in early access alpha on steam yet already dealt with things SC has been reportedly struggling with for a long time.
Now admittedly it doesn’t have the graphical fidelity that SC is aiming for (although it improves with every patch), but what surprises me is things like:
- Switching between 3rd person and 1st person view & having the camera angle / gun placement correct. Empyrion does this, why is there so much talk of Star Citizen not being able to do it without the user having hands the size of giant turtles and so on?
- Local Physics Grid – You build a new spaceship, the gravity is locked to that ship. You leave the ship, you enter zero-g. You enter another ship nearby, you lock to the gravity in that ship. The 2 ships act differently to each other with their own gravity. Why is this such a big deal for SC? I saw a video the other day on youtube, I forget where, saying this was an outstanding technological achievement and one of the most amazing things about the game. Really??
- Team based shooting/fps/star marine – this is kind of thing is in Empyrion also. Me and a few mates have boarded other crafts and space stations both in space and bases on planets, had gun fights, raided them for loot etc…
Empyrion also has planets, space flight, and eventually will have multiple systems to fly around in. Although the transition from space to planetside is not completely seamless; there is a small jump for a second as you re-enter the atmosphere… you can see roughly where you are from space and gauge your re-entry point accordingly.
Plus it has all the base building and craft building you could want.
If an indie team of a handful of devs can pull all these things off in Empyrion, I'm not sure why it’s so remarkable for SC to achieve (or not to) them.
Post by: somedude on December 02, 2016, 11:15:06 AM
There is admittably 1 thing that SC 'tries' to do that hasnt been done yet: the scale. To date there is no game (that i know of) that has the scale of what SC wants to be. At least not with the graphical fidelity they're aiming for. (NMS doesnt even count with their cartoon graphics, god i'm sick of cartoon graphics...)
But...SC wont do that either, in fact, there wont be an SC as pitched, ever.
Post by: JoeBloggs on December 02, 2016, 03:47:58 PM
I did implement a 128-bit floating-point 3D engine a year ago.
I'm going to call SC bluff on their 64-bit upgrade. Let me explain:
This has to do with data-types for 2^64:
A signed 64-bit int is +/- 2^63,
A 64-bit floating point is 2^52* precision, not 64-bit.
* See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double-precision_floating-point_format
Thus, if you cast a 64-bit int higher than 2^53, you get cut-off, or truncation error. Did they not think about that?
You can see floating point errors in game-play - lock on weapons - only to miss, collision errors, oddly sized ships to name a few.
The proposed solution, was to use:
A signed __int128 would cast into long_double, with a guard or warning message if any of the maths goes above/below 2^64.
Yeah, the main reason to use 64-bit, is to get over the 4GB memory-space limit for the textures.
The 64-bit issue, is trivial. Any salted developer would make their Win32 EXEs, Linux ELF and IPA use 64-bit C++.
It's not like the 16-bit DOS era...
Post by: JoeBloggs on December 02, 2016, 03:49:55 PM
Have you seen Star Marine or SQ42?
Shitizens,
Close your eyes and don't look at the below video.
Post by: Kyrt on December 02, 2016, 04:29:56 PM
The things I find the most surprising about Star Citizen is how there always seems to be blockers or claims of incredible technological achievement for things that I have seen in other games.
In all honesty, what works in one game might not work in another due to the different engines and other systems. I could easily accept that they might be blocked by something that other games have already done, simply on the premise that their program is different. Similarly, I would expect that what might block other programs might be easily dealt with by CIGs system.
Having said that, their claims of incredible technological achievement appear to be mere hype. There is nothing in Star Citizen that strikes me as unique. Ambitious? Yes...but innovative? I don't think they can even claim that the link between SQ42 and SC is innovative as other games have such links, be it sequels using existing save positions or EVE and Dust 514
Star Citizen promises nothing that Elite or NMS or EVE or SWTOR or whatever also does not promise or provide.
That lack of innovation isn't a problem. They might even end up with the BDSSE if they ever get the game released and it lives up to expectations. No - the problem with hyping the game in such a manner is that it raises expectations...expectations that could be very difficult for CIG to meet.
As it is....Star Citizens biggest problem appears to be the usual problem with Chris Roberts' games. Chris Roberts appears to have vastly underestimated the time and resources required to fulfil his vision, and has compounded that error with some bad decisions. Such as the money wasted on Ilfonic because of poor communication/management and other third parties or the choice of CryEngine. As Derek Smart says, the CryEngine licensed for the game might have been suitable for the Kickstarter vision, but given the amount of time and resources necessary to modify it to make it suitable for his expanded vision, he likely would have been better starting from scratch. He should have said "Now that we have the funds to expand the vision, we have the funding and excuse to design and build a custom engine"
Maybe - as someone suggested - CIG are doing that in parallel with the ship funding we have seen. Maybe this new engine will be 3.0. Maybe this new engine explains the lack of visible progress on many aspects of the game. Maybe. But it seems doubtful.
Post by: dsmart on December 02, 2016, 06:48:47 PM
The things I find the most surprising about Star Citizen is how there always seems to be blockers or claims of incredible technological achievement for things that I have seen in other games.
In all honesty, what works in one game might not work in another due to the different engines and other systems. I could easily accept that they might be blocked by something that other games have already done, simply on the premise that their program is different. Similarly, I would expect that what might block other programs might be easily dealt with by CIGs system.
Having said that, their claims of incredible technological achievement appear to be mere hype. There is nothing in Star Citizen that strikes me as unique. Ambitious? Yes...but innovative? I don't think they can even claim that the link between SQ42 and SC is innovative as other games have such links, be it sequels using existing save positions or EVE and Dust 514
I’ve spent 150 hours or so playing Empyrion: Survival Evolved in recent months, it’s still in early access alpha on steam yet already dealt with things SC has been reportedly struggling with for a long time.
Star Citizen promises nothing that Elite or NMS or EVE or SWTOR or whatever also does not promise or provide.
That lack of innovation isn't a problem. They might even end up with the BDSSE if they ever get the game released and it lives up to expectations. No - the problem with hyping the game in such a manner is that it raises expectations...expectations that could be very difficult for CIG to meet.
As it is....Star Citizens biggest problem appears to be the usual problem with Chris Roberts' games. Chris Roberts appears to have vastly underestimated the time and resources required to fulfil his vision, and has compounded that error with some bad decisions. Such as the money wasted on Ilfonic because of poor communication/management and other third parties or the choice of CryEngine. As Derek Smart says, the CryEngine licensed for the game might have been suitable for the Kickstarter vision, but given the amount of time and resources necessary to modify it to make it suitable for his expanded vision, he likely would have been better starting from scratch. He should have said "Now that we have the funds to expand the vision, we have the funding and excuse to design and build a custom engine"
Maybe - as someone suggested - CIG are doing that in parallel with the ship funding we have seen. Maybe this new engine will be 3.0. Maybe this new engine explains the lack of visible progress on many aspects of the game. Maybe. But it seems doubtful.
^ This was a good post. :five: :five: :five:
CIG had the chance to innovate with all the money they raised. But all they're going to end up doing now is playing catch-up. And for a game that's coming out in 2017, it no longer even has the graphics edge that it once had. Even with LoD, we're facing the decision of porting to UE4 (http://lodgame.com/news/16-11-01/) and just going all out on the graphics while we're at it because that's what happens when games take too long in development.
They will never get the BDSSE, as that's going to be Elite Dangerous once they get space legs working. And once we go full time on the Universal Combat CE (http://www.3000ad.com/games/universal-combat-lyrius-conflict/) visual upgrade, well then, all bets are off. Even with LoD, the plan is to expand it via DLC once we get the core game out.
There are always going to be high end space combat sims, including the likes of Battlespace Infinity and Dual Universe, which push the limits of what we have now. Star Citizen isn't going to be one of them, as they have already missed the opportunity to really do anything ground-breaking.
Post by: dsmart on December 02, 2016, 06:51:40 PM
(http://i.imgur.com/USnwEhA.gif)
FYI, the 2.6 release schedule (https://robertsspaceindustries.com/schedule-report) has been moved - again - to Dec 16th.
Post by: JoeBloggs on December 02, 2016, 09:44:13 PM
Hi Derek,
Don't be surprised on Dec 16th it gets moved to Dec 23rd, then ... Jan 10th 2017.
With this kind of scheduling, you can imagine what kind of ***** quality the production managers have.
If this was an AAA game, someone would get fired, or censured (salary-cut).
Post by: Kyrt on December 03, 2016, 03:19:31 AM
Hi Derek,
Don't be surprised on Dec 16th it gets moved to Dec 23rd, then ... Jan 10th 2017.
With this kind of scheduling, you can imagine what kind of ***** quality the production managers have.
If this was an AAA game, someone would get fired, or censured (salary-cut).
For a 16th December release, its already been effectively moved to Jan. 17.
How many are going to give it a lot of time over Christmas?
Post by: Darklegend1 on December 05, 2016, 12:30:41 AM
I was like rolling with laughter after reading this seeing he had the courage to even show his face after such delays and on top of it boasting that they achieved the deadlines. hahahah
After community outcries on delays, CI shows the schedule, then gets delayed, then extend the schedule, then get delayed, then again extend the schedule, then delivers something to the evocati shrouded in darkness, then say see we met the deadline. Thats how humorous chris is...i like him really..lmao
Post by: dsmart on December 05, 2016, 06:17:27 AM
Have you guys seen the latest newsletter from chris. In it he said "For those keeping track, we got Alpha 2.6 made the release window forecast from the Production Schedule Report."
I was like rolling with laughter after reading this seeing he had the courage to even show his face after such delays and on top of it boasting that they achieved the deadlines. hahahah
After community outcries on delays, CI shows the schedule, then gets delayed, then extend the schedule, then get delayed, then again extend the schedule, then delivers something to the evocati shrouded in darkness, then say see we met the deadline. Thats how humorous chris is...i like him really..lmao
Yeah, it's pathetic. The last one he did was on 11/19, going into the anniversary sales. So he's prepping for the upcoming holiday sales; even though 2.6 isn't even released yet; and probably won't be at that point. It's a pathetic on-going cash grab. But wait; things are happening.
Post by: DDM_Reaper20 on December 05, 2016, 06:33:52 AM
The "tasks" detailed there are about as fascinating as watching somebody clip their toenails. The reason behind this spiel is . . . (drum roll, please) . . . MONEY. Yup. They are going to do a "concept sale" on dedicated passenger vessels.
As far as I understand the concept (pun intended), this may not even mean that the ship(s) make it into the game proper.
Frankly, I seriously doubt that this game will be released in 2017. How could that be the case?
As to SM (sounds more like sado-maso to me . . . game-wise, that is . . .) -- I get why so many citizens are totally happy to see that. It means SOME progress. A tiny, tiny, TINY smidgen of progress.
'course, given that this is ONE aspect ofa much larger game, which does not even exist yet in its entirety, such delight is totally misplaced.
Well, at least there is a certain entertainment value to this.
Mind you, I'd love to see Star Citizen come out as a game that could compete with ED. I just do not see it happening, the main reason being that CR insists on feature creep all the time. Even I, largely ignorant of programming, know that this means asking for trouble.
Well, here's to another round of patting their own backs at CIG for having milked people.
Post by: dsmart on December 05, 2016, 01:20:53 PM
The "tasks" detailed there are about as fascinating as watching somebody clip their toenails.
LOL!! I was howling when I read that. But it's true. Funny thing is that, going by the "golf swing" radar, these clowns really think if/when the MVP rolls out, that they're going to be getting any of this crap that's been written and theory-crafted. It's going to be amazing watching all their dreams shatter. It's not like they weren't warned. :argh:
It's never coming out. But until the whole thing collapses, all we can do is just enjoy the ride.
btw, Shitizens still can't reconcile the fact that I was right about Star Marine not being in the original 11-30 Evocati release. :smuggo:
Post by: dsmart on December 05, 2016, 01:43:36 PM
(http://i.imgur.com/mwo9Ih6.jpg)
Post by: dsmart on December 05, 2016, 04:52:04 PM
Now one Shillizen is saying...
Quote
SM was in there and was playable, but not to every evocati tester. You don't have it nor have access to it, so you wouldn't know. I don't blame you otherwise.
It's FALSE. And it is an attempt to say that if someone didn't have access to SM, that's because he wasn't part of that test set.
There is only ONE Evocati build. All other builds are standard builds.
DEV (pushed by devs for testing) -> QA (internal QA) -> EVOCATI (usually the same build as QA) -> WIDE PU TEST (out of Evocati to larger group, usually subscribers) -> LIVE (public release)
Anyone with access to Star Marine when 2.6 was first released on 11-30, did NOT have access to SM other than via hacking the files (https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/comments/5fscye/looks_like_anybody_can_download_the_26_build_and/) and ending up in solo play
Think about this for a moment and you will see what's going on.
- on 11-30, 2.6 was only pushed to Evocati (800+ people). It contained the SM files, though it wasn't playable
- The 2.5.x patch will NOT download the 2.6 Evocati build
- Anyone (not in DEV or QA - as above) with access to 2.6 had to have downloaded it as part of the Evocati release
- If they had access to it - as per of #3 - why then did they have to hack it in order to access Star Marine if it was an official build they could just play?
Simple. The files where. But it wasn't an official release of Star Marine. They enabled it later via a "Star Marine only" patch update due to all the noise that's been going on about it. Which is precisely what I said they would do. They did that about 48hrs later.
I can't even believe that people are arguing about this still. This is what I stated (http://www.dereksmart.com/forum/index.php?topic=29.msg443#msg443) back then, and I was 100% right.
Quote
Some Shitizens are still spreading false rumors that SM is in the build. It's not.
In fact, now even the /r/StarCitizen/ denizens are actively stifling any information about this. My guess is that by the time word is widespread, they're hoping that CIG would have released it as an update.
Just now posted on my Discord channel:Quotethe subreddit is cracking down on anything pertaining to whether or not star marine is in the release pretty hard. That post from yesterday was deleted. two threads about it have been removed. their posting guidelines about evocati leaks are the following: "When an Evocati testing session begins, information about it may not be posted until one month after the end of the session in question. Exceptions to the rule include posting the fact that an Evocati session has started, and very basic information regarding the Evocati session theme (e.g. "Balance is being redone." or "3.0 Evocati testing has begun")." I would consider whether or not the main component of the patch is actually in the patch to be pretty basic info but I guess not..
It goes like this: dev (pushed by devs for testing) -> QA (internal QA) -> Evocati (usually the same build as QA) -> wide testing (out of Evocati to larger group, usually subscribers) -> live (wide public release)
Like all builds, the Evocati builds have a unique internal build number that is incremented with each update. The updates during the Evocati test phase, go through the normal test cycle.
And it's all one build. They don't send different builds to different groups.
This release of 2.6 sans Star Marine indicates to me that either i) they want to test other things first before pushing it to Evocati from SQ or ii) it's so badly broken, that it's never coming out this year.
Note that they had slated Dec 8th as the official release. That date pushes up against the holiday sales. So this preemptive move to push 2.6 to Evocati, to me, is yet another carrot stick ploy by CIG to boost confidence during the upcoming sale, then post-sale, announce that SM isn't coming after all, let alone 2.6 going wide. Mark my words.
It's horrible. And this sort of thing is why it is hilarious to me that whales keep funding this project.
And here is Ben Parry saying he can't even talk about whether or not SM is in the 2.6 build (https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php/259596-The-Star-Citizen-Thread-v5?p=4846507&viewfull=1#post4846507). And my response (https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php/259596-The-Star-Citizen-Thread-v5?p=4847273&viewfull=1#post4847273).QuoteWRT Star Marine, contents of evocati builds are NDA'd, but also I don't work in CS, QA or production, so why would I know?
LATEST: /r/StarCitizen_Leaks/ (https://www.reddit.com/r/Starcitizen_Leaks/comments/5fnd8p/evocati_leaks_updated_regularly/) (<--- run by a known Shitizen, so approach with caution)
Post by: dsmart on December 11, 2016, 05:52:33 AM
Post by: dsmart on December 16, 2016, 08:53:06 AM
v2.0 (https://robertsspaceindustries.com/comm-link/transmission/15106-Star-Citizen-Alpha-20-Available) (patch notes (https://robertsspaceindustries.com/comm-link//15109-Star-Citizen-Alpha-200)), Dec 12, 2015
v2.1.0 (https://robertsspaceindustries.com/comm-link//15137-Star-Citizen-Alpha-210), Jan 15, 2016
v2.2.0 (https://robertsspaceindustries.com/comm-link//15211-Star-Citizen-Alpha-220), March 4, 2016
v2.3.0 (https://robertsspaceindustries.com/comm-link//15268-Star-Citizen-Alpha-230), March 26, 2016
v2.4.0 (https://robertsspaceindustries.com/comm-link//15377-Star-Citizen-Alpha-240), June 9, 2016
v2.5.0 (https://robertsspaceindustries.com/comm-link/engineering/15490-Star-Citizen-Alpha-250), Aug 25, 2016
And during this period, these are ALL the Star Marine updates. Yet, here we are, over a year later, and they still can't get it working.
AUGUST 22ND 2015 (https://robertsspaceindustries.com/comm-link/transmission/14911-Star-Marine-Status-Update)
AUGUST 29TH 2015 (https://robertsspaceindustries.com/comm-link/transmission/14925-Star-Marine-Status-Update)
SEPTEMBER 19TH 2015 (https://robertsspaceindustries.com/comm-link/transmission/14961-Star-Marine-Status-Update)
OCTOBER 23RD 2015 (https://robertsspaceindustries.com/comm-link/transmission/15024-Development-Update)
Post by: dsmart on December 19, 2016, 10:54:23 AM
Post by: dsmart on December 19, 2016, 10:54:45 AM
Post by: dsmart on December 19, 2016, 11:27:41 AM
Post by: dsmart on December 20, 2016, 09:32:56 AM
Post by: dsmart on December 20, 2016, 09:44:20 AM
Post by: Narrenbart on December 20, 2016, 04:13:34 PM
Star Marine in 2.6. Somehow CIG managed to fail at building an FPS component with an engine built for FPS games. Crashes, lags, disconnects etc.And is a complete different experience than the PU FPS ... sure .. we know why ... and we know how Devs love to do redundant work on 2 different modules that are not compatible with each other and how this plays out :)
Post by: Stan on December 21, 2016, 05:19:29 AM
Post by: dsmart on December 21, 2016, 04:15:41 PM
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C0PGuJjUQAAWa0f.jpg)
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C0PGvO1UcAAu_pG.jpg:large)
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C0PGwO9UcAApwX5.jpg:large)
Post by: dsmart on December 21, 2016, 04:32:04 PM
Post by: dsmart on December 21, 2016, 04:41:53 PM
Meanwhile, over there (https://www.reddit.com/r/DerekSmart/comments/5jjxcg/derek_smart_on_twitter_i_heard_that/dbgzquk/)...
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C0PNJ_lXgAAR_Gd.jpg)
Post by: Darklegend1 on December 22, 2016, 12:01:42 AM
In keeping with the tradition of ripping off other game art, someone found that Star Marine is a Master Chief ripoff (https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/comments/5jmm4l/a_bit_of_halo_bled_through_on_this_one/)
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C0PGuJjUQAAWa0f.jpg)
Meanwhile, over there (https://www.reddit.com/r/DerekSmart/comments/5jjxcg/derek_smart_on_twitter_i_heard_that/dbgzquk/)...
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C0PNJ_lXgAAR_Gd.jpg)
hey derek i am new to this scene could u tell me who this guy beer4god is ? his history??
btw it is very shameful act on cig part to have copied the legendary master chief, i know they had to copy from somewhere :laugh: but copying from the most known character in gaming industry.. :wtchris:
Post by: dsmart on December 22, 2016, 07:22:02 AM
hey derek i am new to this scene could u tell me who this guy beer4god is ? his history??
(http://i.imgur.com/0Djewcj.jpg)
Beer4theBeerGod (http://twitter.com/beer4thebeergod/) is a Goon and one of the early backers and staunch supporter of the project. He has been seeking accountability from them since the early days. Then after he apparently became a thorn in their collective sides, without any justification, they banned his RSI forum account (http://i.imgur.com/ou1E5u0.png). Then accused him of corporate espionage (http://i.imgur.com/HYQ7cAv.jpg) after I gave him the name of a ship that they were going to put on sale without disclosing it to the backers :laugh:
You can read the entire exchange (http://imgur.com/a/BIlWu) with Sandi Gardiner Roberts (http://www.dereksmart.org/2016/08/woman-in-gaming-so-what/) and get a good laugh. That's the same exchange in which she told him that she was the most qualified person at the company. Seriously.
He was still holding on, hoping that they would - by some miracle - turn the project around. At this point, seeing as it's clear that's never going to happen, a few days ago he put in for a refund (https://twitter.com/dsmart/status/811563366078627844) for what was left (a little over $500) of his account. He had in fact liquidated (to the tune of about $1,000) some of his game assets in the past months.
Post by: helimoth on December 22, 2016, 07:40:04 AM
Its time for the 25 million stretch goal: International server during alpha (https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/comments/5jds7b/its_time_for_the_25_million_stretch_goal/)
The 'Galactapedia' is surprisingly absent too;
https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/comments/51whkm/whats_the_status_of_the_galactapedia/
https://robertsspaceindustries.com/comm-link/transmission/13812-Letter-From-The-Chairman-42-Million
Whilst not as crucial as international servers for alpha testing, you'd think a mere website feature (especially one with a $42,000,000 price tag) would be simple enough for CIG to implement.
Post by: dsmart on December 22, 2016, 07:46:51 AM
Post by: dsmart on December 22, 2016, 10:03:04 AM
Post by: mackjazno on December 23, 2016, 10:40:42 PM
http://www.polygon.com/2016/12/23/14062698/star-citizen-amazon-game-engine
http://www.kotaku.co.uk/2016/12/24/star-citizen-has-changed-game-engines
And discuss...
Post by: Kyrt on December 24, 2016, 01:17:19 AM
More than four years into development Star Citizen changes game engine
http://www.polygon.com/2016/12/23/14062698/star-citizen-amazon-game-engine
http://www.kotaku.co.uk/2016/12/24/star-citizen-has-changed-game-engines
And discuss...
Well...they didn't want to upgrade to CE5 because it was too much work and the engines were too different following their reworking...
But effectively did it anyway, which suggests their attempts to fix the NetCode in their CE3 engine were less than successful.
Other than that....I'd be interested to know what this mean for the game.
Is the NetCode now "fixed"...or are CIG limited in how the an modify it
Are CIG now stuck with Amazon?
What are the new instance limits? Will we get the 200 players per instance CIG were wanting or is that still some time away?
CIG had reportedly stopping using CE patches because the code base had diverged so much...how does that work for Lumberyard? When they say all the changes made have been moved to Lumberyard, does that mean it's been tested and intergrated smoothly as well or does it mean we are in for a year of "testing" instead of development and progress?
When they say they have moved to Lumberyard...could that mean they may simply have licensed the Netcode and effectively merged it into StarEngine rather than vice versa? That is, kept as much of their own engine intact and made as few other changes as possible in order to fix the netcode?
Does Lumberyard offer CIG any other advantages?
More importantly....does this mean work on the Engine has "finished"? Can we expect quicker progress? Can we expect SOME progress?
Post by: Scruffpuff on December 24, 2016, 06:33:00 AM
Well...they didn't want to upgrade to CE5 because it was too much work and the engines were too different following their reworking...
But effectively did it anyway, which suggests their attempts to fix the NetCode in their CE3 engine were less than successful.
Other than that....I'd be interested to know what this mean for the game.
Is the NetCode now "fixed"...or are CIG limited in how the an modify it
Are CIG now stuck with Amazon?
What are the new instance limits? Will we get the 200 players per instance CIG were wanting or is that still some time away?
CIG had reportedly stopping using CE patches because the code base had diverged so much...how does that work for Lumberyard? When they say all the changes made have been moved to Lumberyard, does that mean it's been tested and intergrated smoothly as well or does it mean we are in for a year of "testing" instead of development and progress?
When they say they have moved to Lumberyard...could that mean they may simply have licensed the Netcode and effectively merged it into StarEngine rather than vice versa? That is, kept as much of their own engine intact and made as few other changes as possible in order to fix the netcode?
Does Lumberyard offer CIG any other advantages?
More importantly....does this mean work on the Engine has "finished"? Can we expect quicker progress? Can we expect SOME progress?
Lumberyard might be based on CryEngine, but it's Amazon's adjustments in it, not CIG's. Every custom modification - years of work - from both CIG and Crytek employees are now reset to zero.
The netcode was never "broken" per se - it's that the built-in CryEngine netcode could not support what CIG was trying to do - it's not an MMO engine. Lumberyard is also not an MMO engine. So the netcode work also starts over.
There's no "merging" either - the changes to create "StarEngine" were too deep. CIG's developers have gone on the record, in attempting to validate delays and lack of progress, saying that they've changed over 50% of the CryEngine code base. Now those same people are claiming that it's a simple process to merge their changes into Lumberyard because it's so "similar."
Yeah, similar except for the 50% they've been crowing about for years. They basically need to change 50% of the Lumberyard code now ("LumberStar?") and how long that will take is anyone's guess. Not to mention that the results of their work were embarrassingly bad, and there's no guarantee that Lumberyard will do any better. On top of that, there's no guarantee that Amazon will allow them to host a deeply modified version of Lumberyard on their servers without understanding the impact their changes will make to their infrastructure from a security and performance perspective.
If I was forced at gunpoint to contrive a positive spin on this, I would say that CIG's familiarity with their own changes to CryEngine over the years means that the migration to Lumberyard would take less time than it would to migrate to an entirely new engine, such as Unreal. That's what I'd say at gunpoint.
Not at gunpoint, I'd say LOL.
Post by: Beexoffel on December 24, 2016, 07:05:02 AM
Post by: Kyrt on December 24, 2016, 10:04:32 AM
Lumberyard might be based on CryEngine, but it's Amazon's adjustments in it, not CIG's. Every custom modification - years of work - from both CIG and Crytek employees are now reset to zero.
As I understand it.
Quote
The netcode was never "broken" per se - it's that the built-in CryEngine netcode could not support what CIG was trying to do - it's not an MMO engine. Lumberyard is also not an MMO engine. So the netcode work also starts over.
I thought Lumberyard had an upgraded netcode attached?
But maybe I am wrong.
As it is...If I understand what Lumberyard is, I would say the advantages here are that it provides CIG with a ready made global server architecture, and the licensing (if not support) fees are reasonable. As in, non existent. That might be a decent saving for them depending on their license terms from CryTek.
As for how simple "merging" the code bases are, I don't have a clue. OTOH - maybe it is as simple as simply dropping Amazons netcode into StarEngine, on the assumption Amazon would be OK with that.
Post by: Mehlan on December 24, 2016, 11:12:23 AM
Actually, according to Chris, it's already done... Lol, of course the reality of the situation is another matter.
p.s....
"If you have been checking out our schedule updates you would know that we originally had hoped to release 2.6 at the beginning of December, not Friday the 23rd!"
Wait a minute Chris, according to gamescon you were 'hoping' to have both 2.6 AND 3.0 out before the end of the year...
Post by: Darklegend1 on December 27, 2016, 06:03:16 AM
Post by: Lir on December 27, 2016, 02:35:40 PM
Actually, according to Chris, it's already done... Lol, of course the reality of the situation is another matter.
Wait a minute Chris, according to gamescon you were 'hoping' to have both 2.6 AND 3.0 out before the end of the year...
Lol.
According to me and many others Chris is a liar.
Post by: Narrenbart on December 27, 2016, 06:31:40 PM
More than four years into development Star Citizen changes game engineTaken from
http://www.polygon.com/2016/12/23/14062698/star-citizen-amazon-game-engine
http://www.kotaku.co.uk/2016/12/24/star-citizen-has-changed-game-engines
And discuss...
https://www.cryengine.com/community/viewtopic.php?f=126&t=133275&start=105
Quote
For those that may be interested, here's a longer synopsis I sent to a colleague that asked about Lumberyard:
It's 99.9% full CryEngine source at this point. The main differences are:
1) They reorganized a lot of the "features" to break them down into "Gems", which makes the base messier to work with and currently adds additional complexity that really isn't needed - like breaking the "Lightning Arc" entity out as an individual gem, for example, which you can pick during project creation.
2) The networking layer is completely replaced. The new one has less latency, but also increases bandwidth (doesn't use the network compression system), and still transfers all data to all clients, so it will not scale.
3) Scaleform/Flash is removed - they have their own simplistic UI system currently - very basic stuff.
4) Steam integration has been removed (see paragraph below)
5) Crytek's lobby system is removed
6) Some experimental features like Segmented Worlds have been completely removed
7) I like the way they are trying to make the initial development more project focused - create a project, pick the gems you want to use, etc., but right now it's a little confusing and they need to clean it up - feels very "hacked" in currently
8) Not open source - you can't distribute any source code modification you make - DLLs should be fine from what I read in the EULA
9) All current CE limitations are still in place - memory restrictions, map size restrictions, AI system, and so forth.
10) You get full source for everything - Launchers, editor (Sandbox), and shaders included.
The biggest downside is anything that requires a network server is locked into the AWS services. The exception is if you host the servers yourself, in your own datacenter, then that's fine, but very few people/companies will be willing to do that. Any Web APIs or services that would compete with an AWS service is not allowed. This means that you can't use Steam's ladderboards, achievements, messaging, storage, or anything like that because AWS has a competing service in place - it's why Steam integration appears to have been removed. You can sell the game on Steam, just not integrate with any back-end Steam services. So, for a single-player game you still need to use AWS' services for those if you want them.
If any of the above is incorrect, I apologize, and please correct me.
Lumberyard is based on Cry3.8 but what I read from CIG is that they've butchered the sourcecode and picked the gems out of it to include it in their Frankenengine.
This is a little in conflict with the Lumberyard TOS that forbids to butcher their sourcecode for an own engine, Amazon didn't pay $50mil and countless manhours for some wannabe developer to implement it in their own engine.
Post by: Narrenbart on December 27, 2016, 07:09:49 PM
GCE vs AWS in 2016: Why you shouldn’t use Amazon
https://thehftguy.com/2016/06/15/gce-vs-aws-in-2016-why-you-should-never-use-amazon/
Post by: dsmart on December 28, 2016, 06:09:43 AM
Post by: dsmart on January 06, 2017, 07:50:05 AM
Ho Lee Crap!
(http://i.imgur.com/QEoNT7T.jpg)
Post by: dsmart on January 06, 2017, 06:14:12 PM
(http://i.imgur.com/eYrdRkN.jpg)
Post by: dsmart on January 06, 2017, 06:24:19 PM
https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/comments/5meowg/when_will_the_issue_be_fixed_according_to/
(http://i.imgur.com/fPDqSyr.png)
Post by: Darklegend1 on January 06, 2017, 11:13:44 PM
Post by: dsmart on January 07, 2017, 05:46:44 AM
this is the height of incompetency, CIG still havent updated the schedule page. what a bummer i think they wont update the page about 3.0 but will buy some days off by showing schedule for 2.6.1 minor patch. That way backers will think ok something is happening .. :laugh:
Well, take a look at the newsletter that went out yesterday. Same crap as before. Now they're saying 3.0 and SQ42 in 2017. I can't wait to see the schedule; if they ever update it.
Post by: dsmart on January 07, 2017, 06:21:15 AM
Post by: Narrenbart on January 08, 2017, 11:30:26 AM
this is the height of incompetency, CIG still havent updated the schedule page. what a bummer i think they wont update the page about 3.0 but will buy some days off by showing schedule for 2.6.1 minor patch. That way backers will think ok something is happening .. :laugh:And their founding counter peaks everytime they announce dreams, do a schedule for a minor patch and .... post a rendered image of a planet ... Dreams are happening here Dreams!
And if all this breaks apart Chris will have his 4 mocap studios, Cars and nice Furniture because he decoupled them from CIG.
Post by: dsmart on January 10, 2017, 12:42:31 PM
As I said on Twitter earlier today (https://twitter.com/dsmart/status/818842260884385792), I can't wait to see how CIG/RSI explain to backers why SQ42 is part of Star Citizen via a menu (like AC and Star Marine). tbh, it's a good idea cuz SQ42 was always standalone anyway. they just have to disable network parts & run it like the single-player hangar. Or they could retain networking, host it like AC/SM and bring back co-op play. that would require refactoring the missions though.
Meanwhile, back at the ranch, despite SQ42 being single-player and having been split from SC as a separate game (https://robertsspaceindustries.com/comm-link/transmission/15189-Package-Split-Information), some are acting as if this would be normal if true. Mind blown.
In fact, they're thinking that just because it's just a menu option, that's it's the same thing. This despite the fact that it looks like it's going to be "just another game mode" like AC and SM.
Anyway, they've also now started scaling back on stuff that subs were supposed to be paying for. Now RTV has also been refactored. Say welcome to Happy Hour (https://robertsspaceindustries.com/comm-link/citizens/15667-This-Week-In-Star-Citizen)! I kid you not.
Meanwhile, over there (https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/comments/5n5h06/is_everyone_else_cool_with_losing_the_two_qa/).
(http://i.imgur.com/v4HuRXL.jpg)
Post by: Stan on January 10, 2017, 05:21:28 PM
Post by: Darklegend1 on January 11, 2017, 01:40:30 AM
Meanwhile, over there (https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/comments/5n5h06/is_everyone_else_cool_with_losing_the_two_qa/).
Hey DS, according to the thread on reddit. they are saying ATV and 10 for the chairman are dead!! is it true
and if its true then its an onset of something bad as CR has started to officially avoid showing his face and make false statements in front of camera to reduce his legal liabilities.
Post by: dsmart on January 11, 2017, 04:10:16 PM
Post by: Stan on January 11, 2017, 11:00:22 PM
Meanwhile, over there (https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/comments/5n5h06/is_everyone_else_cool_with_losing_the_two_qa/).
Hey DS, according to the thread on reddit. they are saying ATV and 10 for the chairman are dead!! is it true
and if its true then its an onset of something bad as CR has started to officially avoid showing his face and make false statements in front of camera to reduce his legal liabilities.
It is no surprise that CR has realised (or been made to realise) that it isn't a good idea to face the backers on a regular basis (even if its highly staged). There is only so much one can say with so little progress and now he can be wheeled out to spread bullshit damage reduction when the efforts of his minions to guild the lily come up wanting.
The less he is on, the less likely he is to put his foot in it.
If he also has people writing his spiels for him (as was apparently the case on xmas day), then the circus can continue for a little longer.
Post by: dsmart on January 12, 2017, 03:07:23 PM
Post by: dsmart on January 12, 2017, 04:15:19 PM
DEREK SMART WAS RIGHT. GET A REFUND
(http://imgur.com/SY3oBFI.jpg)
Post by: Stan on January 13, 2017, 08:10:41 PM
Those clowns over at CIG/RSI still can't build a game for $140m; but apparently they have an alien language now
This is great material for comedians. 13.35 mins in
The actor really looks like he is enjoying his work too !
Post by: Narrenbart on January 13, 2017, 08:15:47 PM
Post by: dsmart on January 20, 2017, 05:53:12 PM
And the newsletter talks of 2.6.2. As for 3.0 (which was totally coming on or before Dec 19th, 2016), the newsletter says they will have more specifics as soon as they are set. Remember back when I said it didn't even exist? :supaburn:
(http://i.imgur.com/gDcCwuq.png)
Items removed from the 12/23/16 2.6 release
(http://i.imgur.com/bFP0mMd.png)
Post by: Stan on January 20, 2017, 09:01:19 PM
So they released the new schedule (https://robertsspaceindustries.com/schedule-report). 2.6.1 is mid-Feb.
And the newsletter talks of 2.6.2. As for 3.0 (which was totally coming on or before Dec 19th, 2016), the newsletter says they will have more specifics as soon as they are set. Remember back when I said it didn't even exist? :supaburn:
(http://i.imgur.com/gDcCwuq.png)
When I have done Project Management in the past, I could print a GANT chart with all the deliverables on in minutes.
As you say Derek, if it doesn't exist in the first place then this is the sort of bullshit newsletter you'd expect CR to produce.
Post by: Darklegend1 on January 20, 2017, 10:44:12 PM
So they released the new schedule (https://robertsspaceindustries.com/schedule-report). 2.6.1 is mid-Feb.
And the newsletter talks of 2.6.2. As for 3.0 (which was totally coming on or before Dec 19th, 2016), the newsletter says they will have more specifics as soon as they are set. Remember back when I said it didn't even exist? :supaburn:
(http://i.imgur.com/gDcCwuq.png)
Precisely they can show a GNATT chart(yes stan this is what it spells like) and whatever delay 2.6.1 and 2.6.2 will have can be added to 3.0 timeline without hassle . but if they dont have any clue then its useless in first place.
They can give an estimation ( because this is what they can give.. :laugh:) like they have given for 2.6.1, they can say it will take them by their estimates 50 days for 2.6.2 and another 90 days for 3.0. and this way we will have an idea what we are looking for. suppose 2.6.1 gets delayed by 10 days so we can add 10 days to the timeline of 2.6.2 and 3.0.
It can be made this simple but one has to be competent to give such deadlines, people who talk fluff to sway backers wont do such professional things.. :laugh: :laugh:
Post by: dsmart on January 21, 2017, 09:57:53 AM
The December estimation by CR for the launch of 3.0 is looking more and more like an outright lie rather than just a simple misjudgment. (https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/comments/5p8yip/the_december_estimation_by_cr_for_the_launch_of/)
It's not like they weren't warned or anything.
Post by: dsmart on January 22, 2017, 08:29:47 AM
Post by: dsmart on January 22, 2017, 08:33:55 AM
Listen from 39:11 again because, to me, he clearly lumped StarEngine in that "level". The only difference being that their "MegaMap" concept doesn't do any pre-loading like a traditional level does. Instead, it streams in what's needed around the player. So, it is still a level - albeit a container. - But while a standard level includes everything in it and requires preloading, their MegaMap doesn't preload anything. Instead it is "demand loaded" (he calls it streaming, which is still a fancy word for loading).
You know the hilarious part? This is what I did in all my Battlecruiser/Universal Combat games. In fact, I described it in detail right here (http://www.dereksmart.com/forum/index.php?topic=9.msg289#msg289). My tech doesn't have the concept of "levels", but an empty object/blob/scene is still a level, except that there's nothing in it but placeholders which determine what gets loaded/streamed when that area is "in scope".
So they basically - again - took an old concept, gave it fancy name, while confusing the entire premise. Which is why Ben Parry swears up and down that they're not "levels" per se.
They did the same shit with 64-Bit positioning, visual stabilization etc
The point is that, time and time again, they have obfuscated various technical terms and usage in a bid to mislead and lie. this is part of the problem when you go digging, only to find out that they're not doing anything new or revolutionary. they try to give off that illusion in order to keep the scam going, while justify having blown over $140m of backer money on cookie cutter bullshit. they did the same shit over the 64-Bit positioning nonsense, until I called them out on it and people started asking questions.
They don't have ANY groundbreaking tech - at all.
And they just did the same shit by lying about the LumberYard switch - though they hadn't actually done it.
Post by: Lir on January 22, 2017, 01:53:15 PM
After so much arguing with Ben Parry over the fact that CryEngine/StarEngine/Lumberyard all use the concept of "levels" - and him denying it and trying to hand wave the concept, here is Sean Tracy - again - in a recent stream saying that they are in fact levels (https://youtu.be/DK2ZBCeKKuQ?t=2318). Oh and "Megamap" isn't really "mega". So there's that.
Listen from 39:11 again because, to me, he clearly lumped StarEngine in that "level". The only difference being that their "MegaMap" concept doesn't do any pre-loading like a traditional level does. Instead, it streams in what's needed around the player. So, it is still a level - albeit a container. - But while a standard level includes everything in it and requires preloading, their MegaMap doesn't preload anything. Instead it is "demand loaded" (he calls it streaming, which is still a fancy word for loading).
You know the hilarious part? This is what I did in all my Battlecruiser/Universal Combat games. In fact, I described it in detail right here (http://www.dereksmart.com/forum/index.php?topic=9.msg289#msg289). My tech doesn't have the concept of "levels", but an empty object/blob/scene is still a level, except that there's nothing in it but placeholders which determine what gets loaded/streamed when that area is "in scope".
So they basically - again - took an old concept, gave it fancy name, while confusing the entire premise. Which is why Ben Parry swears up and down that they're not "levels" per se.
They did the same shit with 64-Bit positioning, visual stabilization etc
The point is that, time and time again, they have obfuscated various technical terms and usage in a bid to mislead and lie. this is part of the problem when you go digging, only to find out that they're not doing anything new or revolutionary. they try to give off that illusion in order to keep the scam going, while justify having blown over $140m of backer money on cookie cutter bullshit. they did the same shit over the 64-Bit positioning nonsense, until I called them out on it and people started asking questions.
They don't have ANY groundbreaking tech - at all.
And they just did the same shit by lying about the LumberYard switch - though they hadn't actually done it.
I'm questionning here the Ben Parry's skills; I mean either he's got absolute shit skills hence why he works at CIG (and would that mean a significant part of the non-execs devs at CIG are unskilled(?), as we know the lead devs are noobs anyway (hey Forrest) or have quit ), or he's been kept in the dark and fed with the Cult mentality all along -sounds like it too; OR he's been part of Croberts scam head crew and know very much he's been coning people. I'm not so much for the later. I guess the first 2 options are viable though.
What's your thoughts about?
Post by: dsmart on January 22, 2017, 05:01:07 PM
I'm questionning here the Ben Parry's skills; I mean either he's got absolute shit skills hence why he works at CIG (and would that mean a significant part of the non-execs devs at CIG are unskilled(?), as we know the lead devs are noobs anyway (hey Forrest) or have quit ), or he's been kept in the dark and fed with the Cult mentality all along -sounds like it too; OR he's been part of Croberts scam head crew and know very much he's been coning people. I'm not so much for the later. I guess the first 2 options are viable though.
What's your thoughts about?
Neither. He's just a low level programmer peon who knows nothing about anything outside his bubble. Plus he hates that I keep engaging and running circles around him.
Post by: Stan on January 22, 2017, 07:50:27 PM
I'm questionning here the Ben Parry's skills; I mean either he's got absolute shit skills hence why he works at CIG (and would that mean a significant part of the non-execs devs at CIG are unskilled(?), as we know the lead devs are noobs anyway (hey Forrest) or have quit ), or he's been kept in the dark and fed with the Cult mentality all along -sounds like it too; OR he's been part of Croberts scam head crew and know very much he's been coning people. I'm not so much for the later. I guess the first 2 options are viable though.
What's your thoughts about?
Neither. He's just a low level programmer peon who knows nothing about anything outside his bubble. Plus he hates that I keep engaging and running circles around him.
What does his Resume look like ?
Post by: dsmart on January 23, 2017, 10:41:56 AM
I'm questionning here the Ben Parry's skills; I mean either he's got absolute shit skills hence why he works at CIG (and would that mean a significant part of the non-execs devs at CIG are unskilled(?), as we know the lead devs are noobs anyway (hey Forrest) or have quit ), or he's been kept in the dark and fed with the Cult mentality all along -sounds like it too; OR he's been part of Croberts scam head crew and know very much he's been coning people. I'm not so much for the later. I guess the first 2 options are viable though.
What's your thoughts about?
Neither. He's just a low level programmer peon who knows nothing about anything outside his bubble. Plus he hates that I keep engaging and running circles around him.
What does his Resume look like ?
Ben Parry on LinkedIn (https://uk.linkedin.com/in/klumaster)
Post by: dsmart on January 26, 2017, 12:06:22 PM
http://www.develop-online.net/news/amazon-unveils-amazon-lumberyard-1-7-beta/0228846 (http://www.develop-online.net/news/amazon-unveils-amazon-lumberyard-1-7-beta/0228846)
remember back when I wrote that their use of Lumberyard in 2.6 was restricted to it's implementation of AWS/S3, hence the need to display the logo?
https://docs.aws.amazon.com/lumberyard/latest/releasenotes/lumberyard-v1.7.html (https://docs.aws.amazon.com/lumberyard/latest/releasenotes/lumberyard-v1.7.html)
section: Updated AWS SDK
listing: Amazon S3
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C3HXStaWIAAGa6I.jpg:large)
Post by: dsmart on January 26, 2017, 04:02:03 PM
Meanwhile, over there... (https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/comments/5qcrch/star_citizen_around_the_verse_engineering/dcy83iu/)
(http://i.imgur.com/sAOYHw6.png)
I'm shocked.
Post by: Darklegend1 on January 26, 2017, 10:34:50 PM
oh-oh. over at CIG/F42, a dozen devs cried out in fear
http://www.develop-online.net/news/amazon-unveils-amazon-lumberyard-1-7-beta/0228846 (http://www.develop-online.net/news/amazon-unveils-amazon-lumberyard-1-7-beta/0228846)
remember back when I wrote that their use of Lumberyard in 2.6 was restricted to it's implementation of AWS/S3, hence the need to display the logo?
https://docs.aws.amazon.com/lumberyard/latest/releasenotes/lumberyard-v1.7.html (https://docs.aws.amazon.com/lumberyard/latest/releasenotes/lumberyard-v1.7.html)
section: Updated AWS SDK
listing: Amazon S3
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C3HXStaWIAAGa6I.jpg:large)
This is not fair play DS this image has been edited. Its not that i didnt like it :laugh: but you shoukd mention that this is a joke.
Post by: dsmart on January 27, 2017, 02:30:51 PM
Post by: dsmart on January 27, 2017, 02:31:53 PM
Quote
This week the Star Citizen dev team made solid strides toward our goals for the 2.6.1 patch, as outlined last week in the revised production schedule report. Meanwhile, others devs that have been locked down to focus on specific tasks and features have continued making progress on elements of the game that will appear further down the road in 3.0 and Squadron 42.
I can't help but remember that time when...
November 2, 2016
http://dereksmart.com/forums/topic/sc-scoop/#post-4757
Quote
When it comes to the 3.0 patch, backers may as well just reconcile the fact that they were lied to – again. It’s not even a case of a missed schedule. He basically came up with a list of features (none of which, according to sources, exists or in a form that would have lent any credibility to his “end of year” promise) he knew backers would fall for, then put it out there as “coming soon”; thus – like the demos at GamesCom and CitizenCon – raising money from the few whales who are still dumb enough to keep giving him money.
...
Rumors and source leaks aside, the writing is on the wall. They are either going to move 2.6 into 2017 – as indeed they should if it’s not ready for test release – or they will try to push some interim 2.5.x minor branch out in order to quash some of the dissent. But the fact remains, waiting until the last minute, or at a time when the bad news won’t affect the anniversary stream, is just another dishonest plan, and one which has become a staple for them.
...
3.0 status: sources say all are still laughing at this one. It simple does NOT exist as was communicated to backers. It was basically a wishlist of items they wanted to see in a point release; and which Roberts when on the record (again) as saying was coming by “year end, and not on Dec 19th like last year“ (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z-3YBuFI3iI&t=1416).
September 22, 2016
http://dereksmart.com/forums/topic/sc-scoop/#post-4493
Quote
While it does not absolve them of the liability of breaking an NDA, it’s easy to see why it makes sense to the people doing it. Especially in light of the fact that this latest leak has clearly shown that not only is the 2.6 patch most likely not coming in Oct; but that given that the test pattern has a lengthy period from “limited Evocati –> wide testing –> live“, it means that it probably won’t be out until sometime in the Nov/Dec time frame. And that, my friends, all but guarantees that the much touted 3.0 (aka the Jesus Patch) which Chris was heavily promoting at GamesCom (https://youtu.be/Z-3YBuFI3iI?t=1416) as coming by end of the year, is not being released this year. At all. Yeah, I know – shocking. Note that there isn’t even a 2.7 patch. It was once talked about, then came GamesCom and Chris saying that after 2.5 (current), there will be 2.6, and then it’s onto 3.0 – the Jesus Patch which fixes everything, and includes all of the latest promises.
Meanwhile, over there: After yesterday's AtV it has become clear to me we probably won't see any significant news on this game anytime soon (https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/comments/5qhs23/after_yesterdays_atv_it_has_become_clear_to_me_we/)
Post by: Narrenbart on January 27, 2017, 09:54:37 PM
The Subsumption AI is navigating lifelike through the Megamap in various Physic Grids.
What do they mean:
My NPC is standing on an Elevator while the assets are streaming.
Post by: Darklegend1 on January 28, 2017, 01:53:01 AM
oh-oh. over at CIG/F42, a dozen devs cried out in fear
http://www.develop-online.net/news/amazon-unveils-amazon-lumberyard-1-7-beta/0228846 (http://www.develop-online.net/news/amazon-unveils-amazon-lumberyard-1-7-beta/0228846)
remember back when I wrote that their use of Lumberyard in 2.6 was restricted to it's implementation of AWS/S3, hence the need to display the logo?
https://docs.aws.amazon.com/lumberyard/latest/releasenotes/lumberyard-v1.7.html (https://docs.aws.amazon.com/lumberyard/latest/releasenotes/lumberyard-v1.7.html)
section: Updated AWS SDK
listing: Amazon S3
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C3HXStaWIAAGa6I.jpg:large)
This is not fair play DS this image has been edited. Its not that i didnt like it :laugh: but you shoukd mention that this is a joke.
I was reffering to the "Star Citizen :Everthing is broken" point that was added by someone via photoshop or something to give false information. again i say not that i dont like it but you should mention that this is a edited image as the link you posted shows this in known issues.
(http://i63.tinypic.com/34peslc.jpg)
Post by: Lir on January 28, 2017, 04:57:53 AM
Honnestly I like anything that can troll crobart and the shitizens.
Post by: dsmart on January 28, 2017, 06:02:52 AM
I was reffering to the "Star Citizen :Everthing is broken" point that was added by someone via photoshop or something to give false information. again i say not that i dont like it but you should mention that this is a edited image as the link you posted shows this in known issues.
That's how the Internet works. It was a joke/meme; and doesn't require any clarification.
Post by: Stan on January 29, 2017, 09:26:48 PM
I liked the joke here. Plus, well it is true, SC is broken :)
Honnestly I like anything that can troll crobart and the shitizens.
Yes and it wasn't exactly difficult to go check the source material either.
Post by: Padrepapp on January 30, 2017, 02:14:14 AM
https://www.reddit.com/r/Eve/comments/5qkci4/eve_online_nebula_used_in_star_citizen_concept_art/
Although many argue this is normal for concept art, but just for the laughs the EVE online community has=)
Post by: dsmart on January 30, 2017, 10:55:56 AM
EVE Online background used for Star Citizen concept art:
https://www.reddit.com/r/Eve/comments/5qkci4/eve_online_nebula_used_in_star_citizen_concept_art/
Although many argue this is normal for concept art, but just for the laughs the EVE online community has=)
Yeah, we've been following that. Also, the station is similar to the one from the Destiny art as well.
Post by: dsmart on January 31, 2017, 04:24:09 PM
(http://imgur.com/DZwSjUN.png)
Kickstarter campaign promise (https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/cig/star-citizen/description)
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C3hiaqPWEAAkwNI.jpg)
Star Citizen’s long-promised virtual reality support arrives in 2016 (http://www.digitaltrends.com/gaming/star-citizens-long-promised-virtual-reality-support-arrives-in-2016/)
Lest we forget, here is our patsy at SXSW 2015 promising VR (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t45Ls1otq1k&feature=youtu.be&t=1975) in a CE build that didn't even have VR support.
UPDATE2
Following my notifying Star Citizen backers of another dumped feature (VR), official CIG spokesman, Ben Parry (https://twitter.com/klumaster), is still putting out fires (1 (http://partedveil.com/index.php), 2 (https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/comments/5rbiwv/regarding_vr_dont_hold_your_breath/dd6uytf/?context=3), 3 (https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/comments/5rbiwv/regarding_vr_dont_hold_your_breath/dd6tq37/)).
It's hilarious that a dev working on what's now the biggest scam in video game history, is being vilified for telling the truth.
(https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/188332576459587584/276358539096883200/Screenshot_2017-02-01_at_9.27.26_AM.png)
(https://i.imgur.com/RyXS3tw.png)
UPDATE1
LMAO!! Ben Parry backpedaled on his comment after I tweeted about it. :laugh:
https://twitter.com/dsmart/status/826575777605021697 (https://twitter.com/dsmart/status/826575777605021697)
https://twitter.com/dsmart/status/826519107633823748 (https://twitter.com/dsmart/status/826519107633823748)
New version: https://forums.robertsspaceindustries.com/discussion/comment/7499539/#Comment_7499539 (https://forums.robertsspaceindustries.com/discussion/comment/7499539/#Comment_7499539)
7:05PM
Quote
Hi @SaturnSquared. Sorry to say, do not hold your breath for this. Ignoring the render tech for VR itself (which given the work we've done, would definitely be a read-and-rewrite job, not a merge-this-file job), making a game properly VR compliant takes a lot of work at the design and testing level regardless of the engine used. We'd probably need to get the framerate up a bit higher too, come to think of it.
10:32PM
Quote
Sorry for any misunderstanding, my point was that some of the key obstacles to VR support aren't about whether the engine has the technical capability for it. That kind of thinking leads to, well, this guy explains it better than I do. I'd prefer we don't accidentally and permanently ruin anyone's ability to enjoy VR.
Post by: Scruffpuff on January 31, 2017, 04:57:01 PM
1) Complete impossibility
2) Hacked-on pseudo-vr where the headset does nothing more than mimic mouselook with a pseudo-3D environment
Every action in the Star Citizen "game" that takes away control from your first-person viewpoint will break the illusion and induce motion sickness. Guess how often they do this for the sake of "immersion"?
I don't even know why VR is even a talking point at this stage. They have no game, no plans for a game, no design, no ideas, no gameplay loop, no documentation, no functioning engine, no flight physics, and no path forward. All they have is motion capture and a devastatingly autistic CEO.
Post by: Stan on January 31, 2017, 10:10:09 PM
Post by: dsmart on February 01, 2017, 08:45:40 AM
If VR isn't designed and implemented as a core feature from day 1, then it's permanently relegated to one of two states:
1) Complete impossibility
2) Hacked-on pseudo-vr where the headset does nothing more than mimic mouselook with a pseudo-3D environment
Every action in the Star Citizen "game" that takes away control from your first-person viewpoint will break the illusion and induce motion sickness. Guess how often they do this for the sake of "immersion"?
I don't even know why VR is even a talking point at this stage. They have no game, no plans for a game, no design, no ideas, no gameplay loop, no documentation, no functioning engine, no flight physics, and no path forward. All they have is motion capture and a devastatingly autistic CEO.
Yes, that's precisely it. But backers hear about Lumberyard, and think it's going to automagically fix everything.
Post by: Lir on February 01, 2017, 09:11:31 AM
However, he's confirming indeed CIG has never worked on VR integration ever and worse, the poor dude doesn't even seem to know if they intend of doing so.
In the end he's just another one saying sky is green. I just find interesting here that both backers and some of the CIG devs ( seems) are drawn to the cult.
Post by: dsmart on February 01, 2017, 10:46:24 AM
I'm still wondering here how deep the dude has been drawn to the cult.
However, he's confirming indeed CIG has never worked on VR integration ever and worse, the poor dude doesn't even seem to know if they intend of doing so.
In the end he's just another one saying sky is green. I just find interesting here that both backers and some of the CIG devs ( seems) are drawn to the cult.
Ben can't keep his mouth shut. That's his problem. Whether what he says is truthful or not, he usual ends up on controversy. This is not the first time. The most recent was the flap ove the Lumberyard engine switch (which didn't happen).
Post by: BigM on February 01, 2017, 02:54:18 PM
I do feel a little bad for Perry, he seems to be one of those guys that can't hold back and has to blurt stuff out. :smug:
Post by: dsmart on February 02, 2017, 02:36:53 PM
It's boring as hell. I think CIG are determined to wear down their backer base to the point that they stop caring. Seriously.
Meanwhile, over there (https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/comments/5rgfnb/oh_boy_im_gettin_excited_for_this_week_atv/dd76ww1/)
Quote
This week on ATV Programming is hard and shit sucks deal with it. Here is some art that looks like some other art you have already seen. Here is a dude shooting another dude man that shit is great. Speaking of shooting people starmarine is broken we know stop bitching. We are going to release a patch that may or may not fix things in like 3 weeks chill your tits. 3.0 is still on its way soon* Please ignore the comment last year saying it would be done before the end of the year. Network code is hard and no one wants that job so there's like 2 people working on it. They are accepting cookies and hand jobs for encouragement. Please sate them we can't replace them and they could demand literally anything of us and we would have to give in to their wishes.
See you in the verse or more likely in star marine since the PU runs like ass.
They showed about 30 secs of their planetary terrain stuff.
OK, you know what? These are planetary shots from a $12m+ indie game (http://lodgame.com). And those are old shots, seeing as we haven't even switched to UE4 yet.
(http://lodgame.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/2014-10-30_06.jpg)
(http://lodgame.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/2014-10-30_13.jpg)
(http://lodgame.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/09/2016-09-02-07.jpg)
(http://lodgame.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/09/2016-09-02-03.jpg)
(http://lodgame.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/09/2016-09-02-02.jpg)
Post by: dsmart on February 04, 2017, 12:25:08 PM
Quote
Star Citizen Newsletter - Regional Servers Inbound
February 3rd, 2017
Greetings Citizen.
Across all our studios, work on the upcoming Alpha 2.6.1 patch is progressing nicely. There’s still some UI work to complete and stability issues to iron out, but, as you can see in our updated production schedule report, we’re almost ready to get this latest patch into the players’ hands. In fact, we're happy to announce an addition to this patch. Thanks to the great work by the Live Ops, Backend and UI teams, we're moving up the release of the Regional Servers to 2.6.1, so players will be able to choose which server (North America, Europe, or Australia) they join to ensure the best connection possible. Once these are running, we’ll be able to run more tests to assess whether more locations will be needed.
This week I split my time between Foundry 42 offices in the UK and Germany. I’ll be spending another week in the trenches with the devs at Foundry 42 to oversee our advancement on a number of fronts.
Thanks to everyone who showed their support for Star Citizen last weekend at both PAX South and the community-organized Bar Citizen event in San Antonio, TX. It’s just another example of how dedicated and inspiring our fanbase can be. In fact, we’ve been looking for more ways to to bring the community front and center. That’s why this week we premiered a new show called Citizens of the Stars that focuses on the important part you play in Star Citizen. Give it a watch to see some of the incredible things the community is doing.
-- Chris Roberts
Basically, using the AWS support in LumberYard, they can do this now. They couldn't do it before with Google Compute Engine because they'd have to write an ass-ton of code to do it. Amazon has done it for them via their AWS->CryEngine->Lumberyard implementation. Which is one of the things I wrote about in my recent Irreconcilable Differences (http://www.dereksmart.com/2016/12/star-citizen-irreconcilable-differences/) blog in which I discuss the Lumberyard switch.
Forget about fragmentation of their already dwindling player base; the AWS cloud instances won't cost them anything if nobody is connecting to them. In fact, all it will cost them is whatever the AWS bandwidth costs to update them. And since each patch is like 40GB, well then.
What's going to be absolutely hilarious is if they don't enable (in the UI) the ability to select an AWS instance to connect to. which means that if you are in Australia and can't find players, there won't be any way to switch to US based instances which would obviously be more populated. Much rage will be heard.
This is really just another check mark in their pledge promise sheet. Only about a few hundred more to go.
Oh, and lest we forget, some of the backers are rejoicing "regional servers", while forgetting the fact that promises that Chris Roberts made about "1000 player instances" are never - ever - going to happen. And it certainly isn't going to happen with regional AWS instances. Have fun with your sub-par 16 player instances (not to be confused with the higher 24 client allowed in the shopping hub).
And if they are in fact implementing LumberYard GameLift (https://aws.amazon.com/gamelift/), my reaction ----> :laugh:
Post by: Stan on February 04, 2017, 09:06:45 PM
Post by: dsmart on February 08, 2017, 05:11:55 PM
Post by: dsmart on February 08, 2017, 05:52:06 PM
(https://i.imgur.com/mOfIS44.jpg)
Quote
This will most likely be a setup issue with the trigger volumes and logic that the art & design teams use to control color grading across the level (e.g. if you manage to escape a space station but don't pass through specific trigger volumes then the color grade might not be updated). If there is a known set of steps to reliably reproduce the issue I'd recommend raising it in the issue council.
This setup however is intended to be replaced with a more reliable and systemic system to control color grading where every room is tagged with the desired color grade / mood (either by art or procedurally by code). This system will be updated every frame and doesn't rely on hand placed trigger volumes so will never get into an incorrect state, even if you somehow teleport from one location to another. This will likely have a dependency on the 'room system' being developed in LA so it's something we intend to address later in the year, and is a required feature for both 3.0 and Squadron 42.
Cheers,
Ali Brown - Director of Graphics Engineering
3.0 "by end of the year"
Totally called it.
Note also that Ali B (employee to contractor) is Ben Parry's boss. He now has a forum account (he's been around since 2014) and has made a total of 2 posts. Makes you think.
But yeah, back on Nov 2nd 2016 when I said 3.0 was pure fiction (http://www.dereksmart.org/forums/topic/sc-scoop/#post-4757) and that croberts basically LIED at CitizenCon 2016 when he revealed this 2.6 - 4.0 roadmap (http://imgur.com/a/y9NrY). Note that even the dev schedule (https://robertsspaceindustries.com/schedule-report) currently has NO mention of 3.0.
Quote
3.0 status: sources say all are still laughing at this one. It simple does NOT exist as was communicated to backers. It was basically a wishlist of items they wanted to see in a point release; and which Roberts when on the record (again) as saying was coming by “year end, and not on Dec 19th like last year“. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z-3YBuFI3iI&t=1416)
(http://i.imgur.com/54axyWT.jpg)
Post by: dsmart on February 09, 2017, 08:09:12 AM
(http://imgur.com/xHRlhSD.jpg)
Post by: SpaceTroll on February 09, 2017, 09:15:41 PM
Ho Lee Cow!! Just as I predicted (https://twitter.com/dsmart/status/829499514281193473), Ali B did go back in and made a correction to his post (https://forums.robertsspaceindustries.com/discussion/comment/7516130/#Comment_7516130). :laugh:
(http://imgur.com/xHRlhSD.jpg)
Ey Derek. There is a nice spanish thread here
https://noticiasstarcitizen.wordpress.com
Post by: dsmart on February 11, 2017, 04:02:35 PM
Highlights:
- Oxygen modeling
- New "language" for backend development
They're nuts. That aside from the fact that it's all bullshit.
In LoD, right now, there is an oxygen meter that's monitored if you go under water. When you run out while under, you die. If you come up, it refills. Just like what happens if your jetpack runs out of energy; you fall to the ground.
And I have modeled oxygen in all my previous BC/UC games for the same reason, and it uses the same method. It works, and there is no need to reinvent the wheel or chase bullshit fidelity.
There is no reason for any oxygen modeling (which can use the same modeling they do for eva btw) like they're suggesting; let alone a new 'language' for any backend work. Of course, notice how they didn't even say what that is; other than give it a fancy name.
I think all of this is a ploy to justify the bullshit development and costs. And these devs are just pulling a paycheck now, without asking any questions.
Just as I took one look at a Summer 2015 monthly update like this, then concluded that the project was fucked, which prompted my first blog; this update is just another nail in that opinion coffin.
And we're still here, a full 18 months later, 350+ people, $142m+ and neither of the two promised games is anywhere near completion.
Anyone reading this latest update and thinking, "yeah these clowns are making a game", and didn't ask for a refund, deserves to lose their money.
Just as I said back in July 2015, there is no way this game - as pitched - gets made.
Post by: Stan on February 11, 2017, 06:59:13 PM
I remember reading some of the Star Marine delay excuse weekly reports in 2015 just before Chris pulled it.
Once you have been lied to, to that extent by the person responsible, your trust has been betrayed to such an extent that you should'nt believe anything from that source again.
Post by: Hater115 on February 11, 2017, 09:26:38 PM
Why would you model O2 underwater if the player is already theoretically wearing some sort of high-pressure space suit that supports O2 support? I believe these things are kind of a waste of time to develop too but they have gone on record saying that they want to simulate the need of having O2 systems and power systems (making them a limited resource and all that), so it would make sense for them to make these systems different from yours. They are developing their systems the best way it would fit for them, not the best way it would fit for you.
Post by: Scruffpuff on February 11, 2017, 09:48:57 PM
In LoD, right now, there is an oxygen meter that's monitored if you go under water. When you run out while under, you die. If you come up, it refills. Just like what happens if your jetpack runs out of energy; you fall to the ground.
Why would you model O2 underwater if the player is already theoretically wearing some sort of high-pressure space suit that supports O2 support? I believe these things are kind of a waste of time to develop too but they have gone on record saying that they want to simulate the need of having O2 systems and power systems (making them a limited resource and all that), so it would make sense for them to make these systems different from yours. They are developing their systems the best way it would fit for them, not the best way it would fit for you.
You're missing some context. The "oxygen" system CIG is claiming to have supposedly monitors O2 levels in the blood, respiration rates, simulate the entire biological effect on oxygen on living systems... it's all too ridiculous to go into here. The end result is going to be an oxygen meter, and as Derek is pointing out, it can just go down when there's no air, back up when you change the tank, and so on. There's no need to claim you're programming biology itself into the game if a meter does the same job, but this being CIG, that's exactly what they're doing.
Of course if it makes it into the game it'll be just a meter because that's what is sane. But they'll say there are real calculations that go down to the mitochondria level of the man wearing the space suit, and backers will believe it.
Post by: Hater115 on February 11, 2017, 11:08:42 PM
You're missing some context. The "oxygen" system CIG is claiming to have supposedly monitors O2 levels in the blood, respiration rates, simulate the entire biological effect on oxygen on living systems... it's all too ridiculous to go into here. The end result is going to be an oxygen meter, and as Derek is pointing out, it can just go down when there's no air, back up when you change the tank, and so on. There's no need to claim you're programming biology itself into the game if a meter does the same job, but this being CIG, that's exactly what they're doing.
Of course if it makes it into the game it'll be just a meter because that's what is sane. But they'll say there are real calculations that go down to the mitochondria level of the man wearing the space suit, and backers will believe it.
I personally seem to remember that the main haul of the O2 system that they say that they were building was mainly "special" due to a variety of factors including rooms cycling O2 between each other. I know a bunch of their explanation of how things work are just an over complicated way of saying something simple, but I don't think they mentioned the O2 working like that. Look back to that 4 part ATV a couple months back for the O2 system in question (I believe it is, it might be the Citcon pre-atv thing also).
Post by: Lir on February 12, 2017, 06:55:48 AM
Post by: Scruffpuff on February 12, 2017, 07:01:17 AM
I personally seem to remember that the main haul of the O2 system that they say that they were building was mainly "special" due to a variety of factors including rooms cycling O2 between each other. I know a bunch of their explanation of how things work are just an over complicated way of saying something simple, but I don't think they mentioned the O2 working like that. Look back to that 4 part ATV a couple months back for the O2 system in question (I believe it is, it might be the Citcon pre-atv thing also).
I spent some time looking for the exact quotes last night so I could include it in my post, but there is such an overwhelming amount of material to go through, and if you see enough of it, it's practically the Library of Babel of features and promises. At any given time, Chris has said any given feature will be in Star Citizen, so it will be interesting to see what the MVP actually winds up being, if anything.
Post by: dsmart on February 12, 2017, 07:16:35 AM
Why would you model O2 underwater if the player is already theoretically wearing some sort of high-pressure space suit that supports O2 support? I believe these things are kind of a waste of time to develop too but they have gone on record saying that they want to simulate the need of having O2 systems and power systems (making them a limited resource and all that), so it would make sense for them to make these systems different from yours. They are developing their systems the best way it would fit for them, not the best way it would fit for you.
You just made the same assumption you're accusing me of in that last sentence.
To answer your question. In my games, Oxygen in suits isn't infinite. Just like jetpack energy, vehicle and aircraft fuel resources, ammo etc. It's called resource management. Try playing some games that model this sort of thing.
Your inference that a high pressure space suit somehow negates Oxygen resource modeling, is an ignorant one. The two aren't the same thing.
There is nothing in the monthly report that leads anyone of sound mind and body, to believe that what they are describing is in any way, shape or form, "the best way it would fit for them". Even so, why would the current working model which they have for the suits and EVA, need to change? What does it add to the game to make it better, finished quicker etc? Nothing. It's all rubbish.
And every game in history that models any sort of resource management, does it in simplified form because at the end of the day, it's just a glorified meter; no different from a health meter, stamina, fatigue or stuff like that.
ps. LoD already models not only Oxygen, but also stamina, fatigue etc, all based on character type, weight of items carried etc. And it affects all forms of movement. It's not rocket science, and there's nothing revolutionary or ground breaking about it.
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
Post by: dsmart on February 12, 2017, 07:30:05 AM
You're missing some context. The "oxygen" system CIG is claiming to have supposedly monitors O2 levels in the blood, respiration rates, simulate the entire biological effect on oxygen on living systems... it's all too ridiculous to go into here. The end result is going to be an oxygen meter, and as Derek is pointing out, it can just go down when there's no air, back up when you change the tank, and so on. There's no need to claim you're programming biology itself into the game if a meter does the same job, but this being CIG, that's exactly what they're doing.
Of course if it makes it into the game it'll be just a meter because that's what is sane. But they'll say there are real calculations that go down to the mitochondria level of the man wearing the space suit, and backers will believe it.
Precisely.
Heck, we have detection routines which determine if a player is in water, and if so whether their head is above or below the water level; at which time the Oxygen sensor kicks in. And when the suit's Oxygen is depleted, the air in their lungs - which is simply a variable - kicks in. They then have to get their head above water or die. And when above, they automatically take a deep breath which refills the lungs air variable, while the suit automatically refills with air.
All very simple math that takes less than a morning's work to implement and test.
We did this why? Because you can get shot down over water, and while you can swim and stay above water, you will want to go under water to avoid detection, being shot at etc. Plus we have naval vehicles - including a submersible - which you can exit in water, get shot out of etc. So we don't didn't do this on a whim, or just for bullet points in a feature list. And it's been this way since the first Universal Combat game - circa 2000 (1st game released in 2004).
Adding nonsensical features for the heck of it, is a sign of poor design, project management, and a project doomed to fail.
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
Post by: dsmart on February 13, 2017, 10:32:02 AM
10 For The Chairman EP 78 (May 2016) (https://robertsspaceindustries.com/comm-link/transmission/15228-10-For-The-Chairman) in which the discussion about procedurally generated planets, takes center stage and an hilarious turn.
Still not here. And it's almost as if all of these were just R&D tech demos designed to show the non-existent progress on this front...
"Nyx Landing Zone Preview" (Aug 2015)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z2YMlnn4Ngk (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z2YMlnn4Ngk)
"Pupil To Planet" (Dec 2015)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-yLTm8DZ8s4 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-yLTm8DZ8s4)
"Seamless procedural planetary landing gameplay" (Dec 2015)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X5XSiww9ZO4 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X5XSiww9ZO4)
"Alpha 3.0 gamescom 2016 Gameplay" (Aug 2016)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C1wX1Kk3Ajg (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C1wX1Kk3Ajg)
"Procedural Planets v2" (Oct 2016)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pdCFTF8j7yI (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pdCFTF8j7yI)
...and that sandworm on a planet (Oct 2016)
https://youtu.be/XuDj5v81Nd0?t=5120 (https://youtu.be/XuDj5v81Nd0?t=5120)
Post by: dsmart on February 13, 2017, 01:15:34 PM
Quote
“..so, it’s our big end of the year release. er so er yeah, so we’re gonna get it out the end of the year; hopefully not on December 19th but, er, like last year….but it is a big one, so, not making er, I got shot for making promises, but er, that’s our goal.”
(http://i.imgur.com/54axyWT.jpg)
Post by: dsmart on February 17, 2017, 06:14:23 AM
Post by: dsmart on February 17, 2017, 12:51:29 PM
It remains the Holy Grail for online connectivity in terms of twitch games. There is a reason that companies with vast resources, still rely on instanced game sessions - even MMOs.
The Planetside games which are twitch based and tout the largest number of clients in a session, still lagged - badly - when > 32 clients were in the general vicinity. And when they went for the GBWR record for the most clients connected to a session, it was unplayable. The record was about connectivity - not playability.
Eve Online - which isn't twitch based - literally invented a mass of software to host their game. And even so, when it's heavily populated in an area, they use time-dilated updates to keep every one in sync.
The only time that "1000 client instances" makes sense, is if they somehow - automagically solve the n+1 connectivity problem. Considering the clown shoes involved in the project, that's highly unlikely. Again, we're in year 6 and they haven't progressed beyond standard networking in the original CryEngine. So there's that.
The thing with cloud servers like AWS & GCE is that you can do all kinds of nifty things. But they were never designed for the demands of twitch based games. That's why very few use them. Heck, even some of my friends working on games for Microsoft with Azure, are finding this out. See the upcoming Crackdown game.
Basically, you can't have "1000 client instances". What you can have are "1000 client sessions" via inter-instance communications. This - which is basically rocket science - means something like this:
i1(n+250) // instance + client count
i2(n+250)
i3(n+250)
i4(n+250)
Those are 4 are Amazon EC2 Dedicated Hosts (https://aws.amazon.com/ec2/dedicated-hosts/) running in Intel Xeon hardware server clusters. Also see the AMI requirement (http://docs.aws.amazon.com/AWSEC2/latest/UserGuide/AMIs.html) and what an EC2 is (http://docs.aws.amazon.com/AWSEC2/latest/UserGuide/concepts.html). You can also use the free tier (https://aws.amazon.com/free/) to test your app before jumping off a cliff and actually doing it.
This is the part where panic mode sets in. (http://docs.aws.amazon.com/AWSEC2/latest/UserGuide/ebs-ec2-config.html) See those instance types, bandwidth caps etc? Yeah.
Without getting technical, with my above example you have a situation whereby they have to create 4 (or more) instances (copies) of the game.
i1 goes live, then gradually fills up with clients. As it gets filled up, because AWS charges for BOTH in/out bandwidth, the more clients, the higher the costs. It's a lot scarier than that.
i2, i3, i4, all go live - same as above.
Nobody in i1 is going to see or interact with anyone in the other instances. Even if you imagine this being a walled off garden whereby i1-client1 is parked on the edge, he will never see i2-client1. They can't see, shoot, or interact with each other. For all intent and purposes they know nothing about each other.
In order to have "1000 client" instances, you need to have 1000 clients in an instance. Which would mean 1000 clients being able to connect and interact with each other in the above. It's IMPOSSIBLE. Period. End of story. And there isn't a single Xeon hardware server on AWS which would somehow automagically spawn an instance configured for 1000 clients in a twitch based game.
If you "stitch" the instances using clever tricks, such that you have 4 instances each with 250 clients, it's no longer "1000 client" instance, but rather a "1000 client" cluster. And in order to give the illusion of 1000 clients in the world, you have to somehow come up with inter- and intra- instance communications such that, using the walled garden example above, all clients within range can somehow see, chat, engage each other.
Well guess what? Now you're in alchemy territory. You now have an instance whereby i1-client1 fires a missile at i2-client1 and that missile travels through the i1 instance, reaches an area where it is destroyed and appears (re-created) at in i2 at the location of i2-client1 <---- that fool has probably already buggered off, died etc by the time the server code figures out that i1 just fired off a missile at a target in a remote instance which may or may no longer exist.
It gets better. That missile, along with all the calculations for i1-client1 and i2-client1, need to be calculated (God help you if you aren't using server-side arbitration - which by SC isn't using) on-the-fly and in real-time. All the time. Think of the bandwidth.
Now multiply the horrendous notion above to n+1 for a set of clients.
Then plan to be on vacation when the AWS bill shows up for that month.
Here's the hilarious part. Instead of planning to build this from the start, much like Frontier did, they decided to just wing it. And now, six years later, they're still stuck with the basic CryEngine networking layer.
What is even more hilarious is that - right from the start - Chris (it's in the Kickstarter, interviews etc) claimed he wasn't making an MMO. Then, out of the Blue, he was. Suspiciously that was after it dawned on them that they would make more money by selling the entire Verse as an MMO through the sale of assets. They would never - ever - have been able to raise this much money for a single player or session based game. But the fact is, assuming they deliver (which imo they won't) both of these games, the multiplayer is going to remain as it is now. A session based instanced game which will need a witch doctor to get it to handle more than 16 (let alone 1000) clients in combat.
Further reading to see how experts who thought long and hard about this before designing it; but still ended up with a less-than stellar solution to a massive problem:
VERY basic guide for ED networking (https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php?t=238233)
AWS re:Invent 2015 | (GAM403) From 0 to 60 Million Player Hours in 400B Star Systems (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EvJPyjmfdz0)
This is why most of who do this stuff for a living, and with decades under our belt, simply can't fathom how they could possibly be making these FALSE statements. Especially when you consider that when this whole thing collapses, and the lawsuits start flying, these are the sort of statements that are going to end up coming back to haunt them.
Quote
hairychris;5166795]I still have no idea how 1000+ will be technically possible, but I know sod-all about game development.
And that quoted statement doesn't make a huge amount of sense, unless they're having instances ("servers") within instances ("instances") in which case it's still instanced, just called something different.
It's all rubbish tbh.
An "instance" is just a copy of the entire game. It came to be when describing a single server (hardware) running multiple copies (instances). Even a single server running a single copy of the game, is a "dedicated server instance"
And cloud servers are no different, except a GCE|AWS instance is just a software copy running on hardware servers and with no access to physical machines.
e.g. LoD runs only on hardware servers (co-lo at a data center). And we run separate "scenes" (aka levels) each with the ability to handle 1-256 clients (http://lodgame.com/faqs/how-many-players-are-supported/). Each server is powerful enough to handle multiple scenes. So we can run either n+1 space scenes on a server or just 1. In short, the hw server is hosting the instances.
And the way it's all connected is based on architecture we built specifically (http://www.lodgame.com/downloads/LOD_wide_span_global_server.jpg) so that we could control the number of clients in each scene. So if a scene has a client cap (which is server-side configured), no more clients can connect to it until one client drops or leaves. And all scenes are connected in such a way that it all appears as one universe (though it's just 13 connected scenes stitched together with magic (http://lodgame.com/faqs/how-is-the-game-world-divided/)). A player going from a space scene on one server to a planetary scene on another server, doesn't notice anything, as it's just an IP connection via a jump gate. And during the jump handshake, if the target server is full or off-line, the connection is rejected, you get a message - and you stay were you are and try again later.
Also, a single hw server runs a number of scene instances depending on their resource requirement e.g. space scenes don't have as much stuff as planets; so we can run 2-4 space scenes on 1 server, while running 1-2 planetary scenes on another server. Our scenes are of 3 types. space (x4), planet (x4), interiors station|capital ship (x5).
There is no gain to having 1000 clients in an instance if the performance is just going to suffer, thus yielding a horrid experience for gamers. And even if you did it, the bandwidth costs alone - especially on cloud instances - would be cost prohibitive.
When running based on an architecture like ours, not only do you get around the n+1 client issue, but player-player comms is a non-issue because it's all one universe. You can be in a scene instance (e.g. space) and communicate with someone in another instance (e.g. planet). Sure, you won't see them due to distance and location, but you can still communicate with them. And if by some fluke a 256 scene instance ends up being full, unless all of them are within a certain range bubble, the packets are priorititized based on proximity.
And we don't have the problem of "grouping with friends" because it's all one cohesive universe. No matter where or when you connect, you will always find your friends; and can join them as long as the scene they are on isn't pop-locked.
A small team of renegade indies, led by a semi-retired mad man, built this. In a span of under two years. And it just works. To the extent that, if you look at our changelog (http://lodgame.com/changelog/), we haven't messed with networking in over three years. And never underestimate the power of AI bot clients to use for load balancing and testing.
Post by: Stan on February 17, 2017, 10:57:06 PM
I am not a developer.
Given that CR was out of the industry for ten years and (I assume) wasn't developing MMOs himself when he last was, what process would he reasonably have gone through to come up with the fantasy set up you describe above ?
Most players with experience of MMOs would know from personal experience playing them that what CR is selling is a huge technical challenge, and as you say, if he'd spoken to a few honest up to date MMO developers when he was thinking about SC, they would surely have told him the limitations of what was currently possible.
It is difficult not to come to the conclusion CR knew all along he couldn't deliver all these concurrent players in one instance (or disguise it to look like it was happening).
He would also have known new technology wasn't going to appear in time to solve the problem for this game.
Post by: dsmart on February 18, 2017, 08:55:50 AM
Derek,
I am not a developer.
Given that CR was out of the industry for ten years and (I assume) wasn't developing MMOs himself when he last was, what process would he reasonably have gone through to come up with the fantasy set up you describe above ?
Most players with experience of MMOs would know from personal experience playing them that what CR is selling is a huge technical challenge, and as you say, if he'd spoken to a few honest up to date MMO developers when he was thinking about SC, they would surely have told him the limitations of what was currently possible.
It is difficult not to come to the conclusion CR knew all along he couldn't deliver all these concurrent players in one instance (or disguise it to look like it was happening).
He would also have known new technology wasn't going to appear in time to solve the problem for this game.
He's not a developer on the game, writes no code etc. So most of this boils down to him either blatantly lying about what his devs told him, or he simply doesn't understand what they're telling him. I simply refuse to believe that devs have told him that they could have "1000 player instances". Then of course, his brother and cohort, Erin, just basically repeated the same thing (http://wccftech.com/star-citizen-exclusive-interview-erin-roberts/). So they're being complicit and continue to lie to backers. But guess what? None of this matters as I'm certain that they don't believe that they will be around long enough for them to actually do any of what they're claiming. It's a scam. Pure and simple.
Post by: Stan on February 18, 2017, 10:09:04 PM
Post by: dsmart on February 19, 2017, 06:34:34 AM
So if these gets into court, they would have to answer questions about how they reasonably believed this was viable ?
Yes. They would be in a deposition under oath and they would have to explain how on Earth they ever thought it was possible. Worse for them? They have to show evidence that what they were touting was actually possible, done before, what work they did to move toward that goal etc. That's why the FTC ends up nailing so many companies for false advertising and consumer fraud.
Post by: dsmart on February 19, 2017, 06:37:10 AM
(https://i.imgur.com/YzZDik0.png)
(http://i.imgur.com/RHUd4ID.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/j5RmT71b.jpg)
this (http://www.123rf.com/search.php?word=39386044&mediapopup=39386044):
(https://us.123rf.com/450wm/yuzach/yuzach1504/yuzach150400012/39386044-space-theme-banners-and-cards-with-flat-astronomic-symbols-of-planets-rocket-stars-telescope-for-des.jpg?ver=6)
https://www.shutterstock.com/image-vector/seamless-children-cartoon-space-pattern-rockets-278602232 (https://www.shutterstock.com/image-vector/seamless-children-cartoon-space-pattern-rockets-278602232)
(https://thumb9.shutterstock.com/display_pic_with_logo/701293/278602232/stock-vector-seamless-children-cartoon-space-pattern-with-rockets-planets-stars-and-universe-over-the-dark-278602232.jpg)
(https://d1nu64hda2bfzz.cloudfront.net/forums/monthly_2016_04/570e780f3493e_DLcape.png.6bdbe589cc3bd9c5543a0f42cba6534c.png)
UPDATE:
Someone on SA noticed something else here: (https://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3800238&userid=0&perpage=40&pagenumber=669#post469613999)
I don't know if it was mentioned, but I'm pretty sure they did steal it.
(https://i.imgur.com/PNdGEEf.png)
(https://thumb9.shutterstock.com/display_pic_with_logo/701293/278602232/stock-vector-seamless-children-cartoon-space-pattern-with-rockets-planets-stars-and-universe-over-the-dark-278602232.jpg)
If you look closely the cloud that's covered by the watermark is different from the second one while on the bed sheet the two clouds are the same. Several of the stars around the watermark are missing and a larger star has been added beneath Uranus.
Post by: nightfire on February 20, 2017, 04:31:21 AM
Meanwhile, even more stock footage has been found in the latest concept ship image. Seriously, this isn't even funny anymore.The expensive ships may be feared for their speed and firepower, but their battle-hardened crew sleeps in kiddy blankets for 10-year olds. What a strange 'Verse.
Post by: dsmart on February 20, 2017, 01:01:51 PM
Meanwhile, even more stock footage has been found in the latest concept ship image. Seriously, this isn't even funny anymore.The expensive ships may be feared for their speed and firepower, but their battle-hardened crew sleeps in kiddy blankets for 10-year olds. What a strange 'Verse.
LOL!! You noticed that too, huh? :lol:
Post by: dsmart on February 21, 2017, 12:21:15 PM
Post by: Lir on February 21, 2017, 01:49:02 PM
There is another solution : they don't have whatzillion staff, they only have one dude on photoshop and they save the money by making him/her steal the stuff because obviously the poor dude has no time to do all that design work alone. OR They don't even have this guy anymore and it's CR himself doing such lol.
As usual it doesn't make sense.
Post by: Narrenbart on February 21, 2017, 02:11:37 PM
"it's allowed in prototyping"
"The project is not commercial at the moment"
"Concept images that are send out to a million users are not to make money"
They ignore all facts regarding art theft and are not worried that backer founds are used to pay fines that are 100 times higher than the original art.
CIG became worse than every publisher in every aspect ...
Post by: nightfire on February 21, 2017, 02:23:56 PM
So they have 150m$, and 300zillions staff around, but they can't pay for textures and alike with copyright on the inet , and they can't have bunch of their staff to quality work on textures?
You obviously don't understand how
But don't worry: texture development will eventually be moved in-house and all blankets will have to be redesigned from scratch anyway to conform to the highest visual and artistic quality demanded by the boss. For starters, look at the primitive cloud and rocket shapes and colors in the current blanket version. The polygon count, color gradients, and detail will need to be increased at least tenfold to make this look good enough in the final game.
Also, don't hold your breath for the 3.0 release until the blankets have been refactored.
Post by: Lir on February 21, 2017, 07:42:54 PM
But why, why they have to steal? Behind the curtain wtf is going on lol. 300 staff? and they obviously have to go steal ?.
And since they've been doing this for long , I've been wondering either wtf within those 300 staff are really assigned into producing a game? Or are they all contractors working at the mocap studio and such stuff? at wich Chris Roberts and his wife like to go spend some mocap holidays from time to time, when they're not busy spending backers's money on 1stclass travels or some montecarlo boat ?
Post by: dsmart on February 22, 2017, 08:08:24 AM
Well, they had released this lore PDF. Since nobody actually reads them; bored Goons went back to take a look (God only knows why tbh) and, well, the evidence and hilarity were in there all along.
Just read the exchanges in this edition. It's amazing. Like, seriously, read it. The except below is just the tip of the iceberg.
Nov 2016 Jump Point edition (https://robertsspaceindustries.com/media/nrnu5u2bjvs3er/source/JumpPoint_04-11_Nov-16_Homemaking.pdf)
(https://i.imgur.com/2FtSYX1.png)
(https://i.imgur.com/Q4tkBQd.png)
Post by: dsmart on February 22, 2017, 08:54:50 AM
I kid you not.
Let's wait and see if they later put in for refunds; as that may be a clear sign of money laundering.
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C5R-ZIRWAAISwVn.jpg:large)
And as someone pointed out, a 3rd of the income came from those two purchases
(https://i.imgur.com/3p8fHEQ.png)
Post by: nightfire on February 22, 2017, 01:00:51 PM
Parp refactor incoming, can't wait.edit
But why, why they have to steal? Behind the curtain wtf is going on lol. 300 staff? and they obviously have to go steal ?.
And since they've been doing this for long , I've been wondering either wtf within those 300 staff are really assigned into producing a game? Or are they all contractors working at the mocap studio and such stuff? at wich Chris Roberts and his wife like to go spend some mocap holidays from time to time, when they're not busy spending backers's money on 1stclass travels or some montecarlo boat ?
I've been trying to wrap my head around this for some time too. For me, the most plausible hypothesis at this time is that they originally started out to produce a game, but lost sight of their target along the way. So their trip eventually came to a halt in the middle of nowhere, when they decided that earning a living as
I just hope that Martin Scorsese will be around long enough to turn this s**t into a great motion picture along the lines of "Wolf on Wall Street" when it finally goes down.
Post by: nightfire on February 22, 2017, 02:40:48 PM
I wrote a thing about instancing over at FDEV (https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php/259596-The-Star-Citizen-Thread-v5?p=5168394&viewfull=1#post5168394)
The job just got a lot harder :wave:
(http://i.imgur.com/EUZnaSf.jpg)
Post by: dsmart on February 22, 2017, 05:15:24 PM
I wrote a thing about instancing over at FDEV (https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php/259596-The-Star-Citizen-Thread-v5?p=5168394&viewfull=1#post5168394)
The job just got a lot harder :wave:
(http://i.imgur.com/EUZnaSf.jpg)
*sigh* I guess I have to go back. Just when I thought I was out, they pull me back in. Man, these guys are absolutely dumb. As rocks. :psyduck:
Post by: Stan on February 22, 2017, 05:23:32 PM
Hey, who remembers back when I was saying that the CitizenCon presentation was just a "demo", with no ties to the game, and that 3.0 is a dream, that NONE of that is going in it etc. Not to mention the fact that, well croberts was basically lying when he said that 3.0 was coming "before Dec 19th".
Well, they had released this lore PDF. Since nobody actually reads them; bored Goons went back to take a look (God only knows why tbh) and, well, the evidence and hilarity were in there all along.
Just read the exchanges in this edition. It's amazing. Like, seriously, read it. The except below is just the tip of the iceberg.
Nov 2016 Jump Point edition (https://robertsspaceindustries.com/media/nrnu5u2bjvs3er/source/JumpPoint_04-11_Nov-16_Homemaking.pdf)
(https://i.imgur.com/2FtSYX1.png)
(https://i.imgur.com/Q4tkBQd.png)
Did Chris Roberts actually say it was gameplay on stage when he introduced it ?
The intent to deceive is there for sure ...but what do people think are the smoking gun quotes from him...
1.18 in I think is where he starts to bullshit about this.
"this is all 100% live, in the engine, in real time" 1.24.50 in
Post by: Narrenbart on February 22, 2017, 05:33:11 PM
Uh don't get me started on that 64Bit crap.
remember you could easily subdivide the space into sectors and only Positional Data needs to adress the floating point error (not quaternion neither scale)
32Bit Range = 2^31 − 1 = 2,147,483,647
Positional Data: (unsigned) Vector3(32b_X, 32b_Y, 32b_Z)[1cm Scale], Vector3(32b_X, 32b_Y, 32b_Z)[1.000km Scale], Vector3(32b_X, 32b_Y, 32b_Z)[1.000.000.000.000km Scale]
Positional Data max: 1.000.000.000.000.000.000.000km with a precision of 1cm in all axes
this is without touching the range of floating point error because I used only half of the 32bit total range (factor 1.000.000.000)
Whoaaahhh .. triple precision that musste be double double float!!! ... no it isnt't ... it's 3times 32bit which renders to 34bit (with one 32bit value left over) NOT 64 or 128 bit ...
the binary Data per axis would look like:
[00] [0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000] < 32 Bit + 2Bit that gives us 4 32 Bit values - (for easy computing and rendering we pass just 4 32 bit values to the GPU)
Basically KSP is doing it that way, though with 2 32 Bit Values not 3 as seen in this example.
Fake Edit: if you took the 4th 32bit value into the positional data you get ... tadaa ... in the sextillion range and if I shit on Floating point error safe zone in the 100 sextillion range (sounds familiar?)
Star Citizen is selling 34 bit as 64 bit without knowing how binary calculation is working (or with knowing and blantantly ...uhm... not telling the truth)
And this makes me angry, this is something we are working with for decades (tricking out variables was always there) ... now CIG comes in the year 2015 and is selling this as new feature ... and the blinded cultist are cheering and chanting that all other devs are to incompetent not to come with this earlier ... we did but we didn't lie to you and never make a fuss about it.
Aaaand another fake edit:
This sextillion range includes the whole game with all planets, planets surfaces and so on.
Now the funny part. we have a planet that not only rotates, on top of that it should orbit around a sun.
Planets are ... spheres (or potatoes or aubergines depends on what NASA is telling you that day) but we take good ole Spheres.
Spheres are funny because all calculation on the surface is based on pi which is never correct and always an estimate to a point.
Now we shit on floating point error because we are just out of college and think we can avoid it because reasons and our manager likes BIG numbers.
We have to populate a planet with physic bodies (and all physic engines are a little bit .. uhm ... not so precise (this includes physX)) we need physic bodies in a 100 sextillion km range with 1cm precision, on a sphere, which rotates, which circles around a sun (another pi value), thousands of them, with multiple "physics grids".
Basically I may not think too much about it because this is the part my brain heats up.
this system alone would take years of development with a very good and specialised team. Now take a look at port olisar which is not rotating, a flat plane (kind of) and not orbiting around anything.
Take a look at it and see with your own eyes how precise the physic is working there - now imagine this team that produced that buggy mess has to make it work on planets and orbits.
fake fake edit of the fake edit:
Don't get me started on multiple local physics grids or I will start to explain how simple it is to design an elevator in a physic based game ... now just instead of a script give the player control over the elevator and instead of a simple platform just design it as a spaceship alooklike room with a change in the character controller behavior.
If you are into Unity3D there is a module in the shop called Alien Sky for $40 that is doing what Star citizen does (https://www.assetstore.unity3d.com/en/#!/content/68425)
But CIG is selling it as ... oh I really hate this company with their rebranding of old tech and lying to their community ...
Post by: dsmart on February 22, 2017, 05:46:52 PM
@nightfire
Uh don't get me started on that 64Bit crap.
remember you could easily subdivide the space into sectors and only Positional Data needs to adress the floating point error (not quaternion neither scale)
32Bit Range = 2^31 − 1 = 2,147,483,647
Positional Data: (unsigned) Vector3(32b_X, 32b_Y, 32b_Z)[1cm Scale], Vector3(32b_X, 32b_Y, 32b_Z)[1.000km Scale], Vector3(32b_X, 32b_Y, 32b_Z)[1.000.000.000.000km Scale]
Positional Data max: 1.000.000.000.000.000.000.000km with a precision of 1cm in all axes
this is without touching the range of floating point error because I used only half of the 32bit total range (factor 1.000.000.000)
Whoaaahhh .. triple precision that musste be double double float!!! ... no it isnt't ... it's 3times 32bit which renders to 34bit (with one 32bit value left over) NOT 64 or 128 bit ...
the binary Data per axis would look like:
[00] [0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000] < 32 Bit + 2Bit that gives us 4 32 Bit values - (for easy computing and rendering we pass just 4 32 bit values to the GPU)
Basically KSP is doing it that way, though with 2 32 Bit Values not 3 as seen in this example.
Fake Edit: if you took the 4th 32bit value into the positional data you get ... tadaa ... in the sextillion range and if I shit on Floating point error safe zone in the 100 sextillion range (sounds familiar?)
Star Citizen is selling 34 bit as 64 bit without knowing how binary calculation is working (or with knowing and blantantly ...uhm... not telling the truth)
And this makes me angry, this is something we are working with for decades (tricking out variables was always there) ... now CIG comes in the year 2015 and is selling this as new feature ... and the blinded cultist are cheering and chanting that all other devs are to incompetent not to come with this earlier ... we did but we didn't lie to you and never make a fuss about it.
Well you're a brave man for going so far as to explain in such detail, something that probably 95% of the backers won't even understand, let alone acknowledge. I did my bit until I was Blue in the face. And that was BEFORE they even release the PU.
Post by: Narrenbart on February 22, 2017, 06:10:47 PM
Overnight, 2 backers gave CIG $30K by buying 2 completionist packs (https://robertsspaceindustries.com/pledge/Combos/The-Completionist-Digital) (don't contain all the ships btw).The backers will never know ...
I kid you not.
Let's wait and see if they later put in for refunds; as that may be a clear sign of money laundering.
Post by: nightfire on February 23, 2017, 01:36:38 PM
(http://i.imgur.com/nKHsDJ4.jpg)
Maybe they should drop the C in "Cloud Imperium Games"? :ohdear:
Post by: dsmart on February 23, 2017, 01:41:11 PM
https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/comments/5vnq5m/261_so_far_for_me/?st=izisnwh6&sh=51ee9498
Quote
it crashed my game so hard that the sound started coming out of my monitor rather than my headset
Post by: nightfire on February 23, 2017, 03:17:32 PM
32Bit Range = 2^31 − 1 = 2,147,483,647
Positional Data: (unsigned) Vector3(32b_X, 32b_Y, 32b_Z)[1cm Scale], Vector3(32b_X, 32b_Y, 32b_Z)[1.000km Scale], Vector3(32b_X, 32b_Y, 32b_Z)[1.000.000.000.000km Scale]
Positional Data max: 1.000.000.000.000.000.000.000km with a precision of 1cm in all axes
this is without touching the range of floating point error because I used only half of the 32bit total range (factor 1.000.000.000)
Whoaaahhh .. triple precision that musste be double double float!!! ... no it isnt't ... it's 3times 32bit which renders to 34bit (with one 32bit value left over) NOT 64 or 128 bit ...
I hear you, but I can't quite figure out your calculation yet. Let me start with the above end result:
Our example coordinate system shall have a length of 1.000.000.000.000.000.000.000km, or 10^21 km per axis. The smallest unit of resolution shall be 1cm, so there are 10^26 units(cm) per axis (1km = 10^5cm).
In my understanding, entropy law dictates that a minimum of log2(x) storage bits will be required to represent x units in a discrete (integer) storage layout. In this case, log2(10^26) = 86.37. So at least 87 bits per axis would be needed to store every arbitrary coordinate value between 0…10^26-1 cm without loss of precision.
If we chose a floating-point storage layout, my understanding is that 10^26 = 27 "significant digits" would need to be stored in our case. Assuming the IEEE 754 floating point standard, the smallest layout which could accommodate this is quadruple-precision (128 bits, and 33 significant digits), since double-precision (64 bits) can only cope with 15 significant digits.
So at this stage I don't understand your conclusion yet that it's possible to represent 10^26 discrete values (units/cm) in 34 bits of storage, as it appears to me that it's not possible to get away with less than 87 bits. :confused: Please walk me through this part of the argument once more.
Post by: Narrenbart on February 23, 2017, 06:03:27 PM
[...]This is true if you only want to have one variable to store it all per axis
So at this stage I don't understand your conclusion yet that it's possible to represent 10^26 discrete values (units/cm) in 34 bits of storage, as it appears to me that it's not possible to get away with less than 87 bits. :confused: Please walk me through this part of the argument once more.
(I just found a small error that I will correct in this example)
I build multiple coordinate systems like a Matrjoschka.
The first 32bit coordinate system is doing 0.000001km (1cm) to 10.000km with three signed 32bit Variable I have 20.000km with a precision of 1cm now in every direction
(one 32Bit per axis)
Now I put my coordinate system in a larger one
The second 32bit coordinate system is doing 10.000km to 10.000.000.000.000km with a precision of 10.000km lets call it the sector Variable if you enter a new sector the subsector variable can be used for the new one, you just need to flip the axis (basically you know exactly where the player entered the sector and can use the 1cm precision accordingly) now we have a max of 20.000.000.000.000km with a precision of 1cm.
"flip the axis" like: - subsector maxY is reached - increase sectorY by 1 - set subsector to minY -
(two 32Bit per axis)
now I put my Sector system in a larger one and call it the universe variable
the third 32bit coordinate system is doing 10.000.000.000.000km to 10.000.000.000.000.000.000.000km with a precision of 10.000.000.000.000km if the sector max is reached on any axis I increase the universe variable of this axis and set the sector and subsector to min.
(three 32Bit per axis)
now I put my Universe system in a larger one and call it Galaxy variable
the fourth 32bit coordinate system is doing 10.000.000.000.000.000.000.000km to 10.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000km with a precision of 10.000.000.000.000.000.000.000km
(four 32Bit per axis)
struct myPosition = Vector3(subsectorX(32bit), subsectorY(32bit), subsectorZ(32bit)), Vector3(sectorX(32bit), sectorY(32bit), sectorZ(32bit)), Vector3(universeX(32bit), universeY(32bit), universeZ(32bit)), Vector3(galaxyX(32bit), galaxyY(32bit), galaxyZ(32bit))
[Edit: with reflecting the US numbersystem I am at (signed)10^31 *2km which is 20Nonillion kilometers :D but to avoid floating point errors I would scale it a little bit down :)]
And I am now at 10^31km (there was my error in my last calculation I forgot somewhere some zeros) with a precision of 1cm If I am reaching a border of a coordinate system I increase the overlay coordinate system and set the underlying system to zero. for 10^31 I need four 32bit Variables per Axis which can be projected as one 34bit if you want (64bit contains 2,147,483,647 32bit variables)
With five 32 bit variables I would be at 10^40km range which is 10 duodecillion.
WAHHHH I just read that you americans have other number names ...
Europe 1 Sextillion = 10^36
US 1 Sextillion = 10^21
so for 20 US sextillion I just need 3 coordinate systems
although you would need a 87bit variable to store ALL subsector, sector, universe and galaxy data at once (with a live precision of 1cm for EVERY cm including if there is nothing) which is senseless because there is only one you and all other systems would be empty, you would only need this if you can see everything in all galaxies at once (in other words if you are a God you'll need 87bit at least) - instead of this we reuse the coordinate system because we only need one position for every object - 64bit would be an almost godly waste at this point.
Post by: dsmart on February 23, 2017, 06:24:30 PM
*
Not a valid vimeo URL
Post by: Narrenbart on February 23, 2017, 06:26:18 PM
Post by: Lir on February 24, 2017, 06:39:31 AM
32Bit Range = 2^31 − 1 = 2,147,483,647
Positional Data: (unsigned) Vector3(32b_X, 32b_Y, 32b_Z)[1cm Scale], Vector3(32b_X, 32b_Y, 32b_Z)[1.000km Scale], Vector3(32b_X, 32b_Y, 32b_Z)[1.000.000.000.000km Scale]
Positional Data max: 1.000.000.000.000.000.000.000km with a precision of 1cm in all axes
this is without touching the range of floating point error because I used only half of the 32bit total range (factor 1.000.000.000)
Whoaaahhh .. triple precision that musste be double double float!!! ... no it isnt't ... it's 3times 32bit which renders to 34bit (with one 32bit value left over) NOT 64 or 128 bit ...
I hear you, but I can't quite figure out your calculation yet. Let me start with the above end result:
Our example coordinate system shall have a length of 1.000.000.000.000.000.000.000km, or 10^21 km per axis. The smallest unit of resolution shall be 1cm, so there are 10^26 units(cm) per axis (1km = 10^5cm).
In my understanding, entropy law dictates that a minimum of log2(x) storage bits will be required to represent x units in a discrete (integer) storage layout. In this case, log2(10^26) = 86.37. So at least 87 bits per axis would be needed to store every arbitrary coordinate value between 0…10^26-1 cm without loss of precision.
If we chose a floating-point storage layout, my understanding is that 10^26 = 27 "significant digits" would need to be stored in our case. Assuming the IEEE 754 floating point standard, the smallest layout which could accommodate this is quadruple-precision (128 bits, and 33 significant digits), since double-precision (64 bits) can only cope with 15 significant digits.
So at this stage I don't understand your conclusion yet that it's possible to represent 10^26 discrete values (units/cm) in 34 bits of storage, as it appears to me that it's not possible to get away with less than 87 bits. :confused: Please walk me through this part of the argument once more.
Lol guys, you should not worry too much about that, with CIG the result will always be = pizza
Post by: nightfire on February 24, 2017, 01:32:13 PM
…
although you would need a 87bit variable to store ALL subsector, sector, universe and galaxy data at once (with a live precision of 1cm for EVERY cm including if there is nothing) which is senseless because there is only one you and all other systems would be empty, you would only need this if you can see everything in all galaxies at once (in other words if you are a God you'll need 87bit at least) - instead of this we reuse the coordinate system because we only need one position for every object - 64bit would be an almost godly waste at this point.
Ok, NOW I get it. It was the way of subdividing and reusing the coordinate system which I didn't get entirely in the first run. Thanks for clarifying! :science:
Post by: nightfire on February 24, 2017, 01:34:54 PM
Lol guys, you should not worry too much about that, with CIG the result will always be = pizza
Agreed, I just want to make sure that I'm not seeing pineapple pizza when everyone else is talking about seafood pizza :D
Post by: dsmart on February 27, 2017, 05:39:55 PM
Interview with Brian Chambers (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P0-QE4UgR4U#t=1025s)
Post by: dsmart on February 28, 2017, 12:29:24 PM
(https://puu.sh/uoav4/dc61715e16.jpg)
Post by: dsmart on March 02, 2017, 10:39:38 AM
Post by: nightfire on March 02, 2017, 11:08:41 AM
Ah yeah, remember back when we said that the Star Citizen networking kernel was getting worse? Right, you did. So go see just how bad it really is now in 2.6.1 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_kP2ek_L8Yk&feature=youtu.be&t=11m13s)
You obviously don't understand game development. Star Citizen currently is still in alpha and the gameplay isn't optimized yet. Performance will get a lot better once the netcode is fixed, and we'll see a huge leap forward once 3.0 is released. Also, network lag has already improved a lot since they moved to Lumberyard and AWS regional servers. My guess is that the Youtube reviewer just didn't connect to the right server, probably because he doesn't understand game development either :D :D
Post by: dsmart on March 02, 2017, 02:47:21 PM
In the latest newsletter, regional server instances are coming in the 2.6.1 patch (due out Feb 17th (https://robertsspaceindustries.com/schedule-report))
Quote
Star Citizen Newsletter - Regional Servers Inbound
February 3rd, 2017
Greetings Citizen.
Across all our studios, work on the upcoming Alpha 2.6.1 patch is progressing nicely. There’s still some UI work to complete and stability issues to iron out, but, as you can see in our updated production schedule report, we’re almost ready to get this latest patch into the players’ hands. In fact, we're happy to announce an addition to this patch. Thanks to the great work by the Live Ops, Backend and UI teams, we're moving up the release of the Regional Servers to 2.6.1, so players will be able to choose which server (North America, Europe, or Australia) they join to ensure the best connection possible. Once these are running, we’ll be able to run more tests to assess whether more locations will be needed.
This week I split my time between Foundry 42 offices in the UK and Germany. I’ll be spending another week in the trenches with the devs at Foundry 42 to oversee our advancement on a number of fronts.
Thanks to everyone who showed their support for Star Citizen last weekend at both PAX South and the community-organized Bar Citizen event in San Antonio, TX. It’s just another example of how dedicated and inspiring our fanbase can be. In fact, we’ve been looking for more ways to to bring the community front and center. That’s why this week we premiered a new show called Citizens of the Stars that focuses on the important part you play in Star Citizen. Give it a watch to see some of the incredible things the community is doing.
-- Chris Roberts
Basically, using the AWS support in LumberYard, they can do this now. They couldn't do it before with Google Compute Engine because they'd have to write an ass-ton of code to do it. Amazon has done it for them via their AWS->CryEngine->Lumberyard implementation. Which is one of the things I wrote about in my recent Irreconcilable Differences (http://www.dereksmart.com/2016/12/star-citizen-irreconcilable-differences/) blog in which I discuss the Lumberyard switch.
Forget about fragmentation of their already dwindling player base; the AWS cloud instances won't cost them anything if nobody is connecting to them. In fact, all it will cost them is whatever the AWS bandwidth costs to update them. And since each patch is like 40GB, well then.
What's going to be absolutely hilarious is if they don't enable (in the UI) the ability to select an AWS instance to connect to. which means that if you are in Australia and can't find players, there won't be any way to switch to US based instances which would obviously be more populated. Much rage will be heard.
This is really just another check mark in their pledge promise sheet. Only about a few hundred more to go.
Oh, and lest we forget, some of the backers are rejoicing "regional servers", while forgetting the fact that promises that Chris Roberts made about "1000 player instances" are never - ever - going to happen. And it certainly isn't going to happen with regional AWS instances. Have fun with your sub-par 16 player instances (not to be confused with the higher 24 client allowed in the shopping hub).
And if they are in fact implementing LumberYard GameLift (https://aws.amazon.com/gamelift/), my reaction ----> :laugh:
Quote
I still have no idea how 1000+ will be technically possible, but I know sod-all about game development.
And that quoted statement doesn't make a huge amount of sense, unless they're having instances ("servers") within instances ("instances") in which case it's still instanced, just called something different.
It's all rubbish tbh.
An "instance" is just a copy of the entire game. It came to be when describing a single server (hardware) running multiple copies (instances). Even a single server running a single copy of the game, is a "dedicated server instance"
And cloud servers are no different, except a GCE|AWS instance is just a software copy running on hardware servers and with no access to physical machines.
e.g. LoD runs only on hardware servers (co-lo at a data center). And we run separate "scenes" (aka levels) each with the ability to handle 1-256 clients (http://lodgame.com/faqs/how-many-players-are-supported/). Each server is powerful enough to handle multiple scenes. So we can run either n+1 space scenes on a server or just 1. In short, the hw server is hosting the instances.
And the way it's all connected is based on architecture we built specifically so that we could control the number of clients in each scene. So if a scene has a client cap (which is server-side configured), no more clients can connect to it until one client drops or leaves. And all scenes are connected in such a way that it all appears as one universe (though it's just 13 connected scenes stitched together with magic (http://lodgame.com/faqs/how-is-the-game-world-divided/)). A player going from a space scene on one server to a planetary scene on another server, doesn't notice anything, as it's just an IP connection via a jump gate. And during the jump handshake, if the target server is full or off-line, the connection is rejected, you get a message - and you stay were you are and try again later.
Also, a single hw server runs a number of scene instances depending on their resource requirement e.g. space scenes don't have as much stuff as planets; so we can run 2-4 space scenes on 1 server, while running 1-2 planetary scenes on another server. Our scenes are of 3 types. space (x4), planet (x4), interiors station|capital ship (x5).
There is no gain to having 1000 clients in an instance if the performance is just going to suffer, thus yielding a horrid experience for gamers. And even if you did it, the bandwidth costs alone - especially on cloud instances - would be cost prohibitive.
When running based on an architecture like ours (http://www.lodgame.com/downloads/LOD_wide_span_global_server.jpg), not only do you get around the n+1 client issue, but player-player comms is a non-issue because it's all one universe. You can be in a scene instance (e.g. space) and communicate with someone in another instance (e.g. planet). Sure, you won't see them due to distance and location, but you can still communicate with them. And if by some fluke a 256 scene instance ends up being full, unless all of them are within a certain range bubble, the packets are priorititized based on proximity.
And we don't have the problem of "grouping with friends" because it's all one cohesive universe. No matter where or when you connect, you will always find your friends; and can join them as long as the scene they are on isn't pop-locked.
A small team of renegade indies, led by a semi-retired mad man, built this. In a span of under two years. And it just works. To the extent that, if you look at our changelog (http://lodgame.com/changelog/), we haven't messed with networking in over three years. And never underestimate the power of AI bot clients to use for load balancing and testing.
Quote
Hehe, I am generally aware of the concepts* and to be honest I'd rather that the term "Cloud" was replaced by "Someone Else's Computer" as it sounds a hell of a lot less magical.
The whole 1000+ simultaneous players thing makes no sense unless you can do some very clever peer-to-peer + view distance stuff as network traffic increases exponentially otherwise. Even if they paid for the computing horsepower, connectivity is always the bottleneck. I suppose that you could do other clever things with shuttling people between instances dependent on criteria like location/neighbouring entities/etc but that would be a nightmare to handle without lagging. All of this at a high-tick rate? yeah.. no.
*I received my BSc in Computer Science before the WWW existed (1994!) but ended up going down the corporate IT route so am not really involved in cutting edge stuff. I can still do the maths though!
It remains the Holy Grail for online connectivity in terms of twitch games. There is a reason that companies with vast resources, still rely on instanced game sessions - even MMOs.
The Planetside games which are twitch based and tout the largest number of clients in a session, still lagged - badly - when > 32 clients were in the general vicinity. And when they went for the GBWR record for the most clients connected to a session, it was unplayable. The record was about connectivity - not playability.
Eve Online - which isn't twitch based - literally invented a mass of software to host their game. And even so, when it's heavily populated in an area, they use time-dilated updates to keep every one in sync.
The only time that "1000 client instances" makes sense, is if they somehow - automagically solve the n+1 connectivity problem. Considering the clown shoes involved in the project, that's highly unlikely. Again, we're in year 6 and they haven't progressed beyond standard networking in the original CryEngine. So there's that.
The thing with cloud servers like AWS & GCE is that you can do all kinds of nifty things. But they were never designed for the demands of twitch based games. That's why very few use them. Heck, even some of my friends working on games for Microsoft with Azure, are finding this out. See the upcoming Crackdown game.
Basically, you can't have "1000 client instances". What you can have are "1000 client sessions" via inter-instance communications. This - which is basically rocket science - means something like this:
i1(n+250) // instance + client count
i2(n+250)
i3(n+250)
i4(n+250)
Those are 4 are Amazon EC2 Dedicated Hosts (https://aws.amazon.com/ec2/dedicated-hosts/) running in Intel Xeon hardware server clusters. Also see the AMI requirement (http://docs.aws.amazon.com/AWSEC2/latest/UserGuide/AMIs.html) and what an EC2 is (http://docs.aws.amazon.com/AWSEC2/latest/UserGuide/concepts.html). You can also use the free tier (https://aws.amazon.com/free/) to test your app before jumping off a cliff and actually doing it.
This is the part where panic mode sets in. (http://docs.aws.amazon.com/AWSEC2/latest/UserGuide/ebs-ec2-config.html) See those instance types, bandwidth caps etc? Yeah.
Without getting technical, with my above example you have a situation whereby they have to create 4 (or more) instances (copies) of the game.
i1 goes live, then gradually fills up with clients. As it gets filled up, because AWS charges for BOTH in/out bandwidth, the more clients, the higher the costs. It's a lot scarier than that.
i2, i3, i4, all go live - same as above.
Nobody in i1 is going to see or interact with anyone in the other instances. Even if you imagine this being a walled off garden whereby i1-client1 is parked on the edge, he will never see i2-client1. They can't see, shoot, or interact with each other. For all intent and purposes they know nothing about each other.
In order to have "1000 client" instances, you need to have 1000 clients in an instance. Which would mean 1000 clients being able to connect and interact with each other in the above. It's IMPOSSIBLE. Period. End of story. And there isn't a single Xeon hardware server on AWS which would somehow automagically spawn an instance configured for 1000 clients in a twitch based game.
If you "stitch" the instances using clever tricks, such that you have 4 instances each with 250 clients, it's no longer "1000 client" instance, but rather a "1000 client" cluster. And in order to give the illusion of 1000 clients in the world, you have to somehow come up with inter- and intra- instance communications such that, using the walled garden example above, all clients within range can somehow see, chat, engage each other.
Well guess what? Now you're in alchemy territory. You now have an instance whereby i1-client1 fires a missile at i2-client1 and that missile travels through the i1 instance, reaches an area where it is destroyed and appears (re-created) at in i2 at the location of i2-client1 <---- that fool has probably already buggered off, died etc by the time the server code figures out that i1 just fired off a missile at a target in a remote instance which may or may no longer exist.
It gets better. That missile, along with all the calculations for i1-client1 and i2-client1, need to be calculated (God help you if you aren't using server-side arbitration - which by SC isn't using) on-the-fly and in real-time. All the time. Think of the bandwidth.
Now multiply the horrendous notion above to n+1 for a set of clients.
Then plan to be on vacation when the AWS bill shows up for that month.
Here's the hilarious part. Instead of planning to build this from the start, much like Frontier did, they decided to just wing it. And now, six years later, they're still stuck with the basic CryEngine networking layer.
What is even more hilarious is that - right from the start - Chris (it's in the Kickstarter, interviews etc) claimed he wasn't making an MMO. Then, out of the Blue, he was. Suspiciously that was after it dawned on them that they would make more money by selling the entire Verse as an MMO through the sale of assets. They would never - ever - have been able to raise this much money for a single player or session based game. But the fact is, assuming they deliver (which imo they won't) both of these games, the multiplayer is going to remain as it is now. A session based instanced game which will need a witch doctor to get it to handle more than 16 (let alone 1000) clients in combat.
Further reading to see how experts who thought long and hard about this before designing it; but still ended up with a less-than stellar solution to a massive problem:
VERY basic guide for ED networking (https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php?t=238233)
AWS re:Invent 2015 | (GAM403) From 0 to 60 Million Player Hours in 400B Star Systems (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EvJPyjmfdz0)
This is why most of who do this stuff for a living, and with decades under our belt, simply can't fathom how they could possibly be making these FALSE statements. Especially when you consider that when this whole thing collapses, and the lawsuits start flying, these are the sort of statements that are going to end up coming back to haunt them.
ps: When it comes to Star Citizen, the claims of "1000 player instances" is pure fiction and rubbish.
Post by: Narrenbart on March 02, 2017, 04:00:04 PM
One player in his ship in SC equals 100 Players in Planetside network data wise - well at the moment they can handle .. ermh 24 players? and only the player (ship) to be handled ... no mugs, bugs or all the other fancy stuff ...
It will be a bad day for the cult when they have to realise that all the immersion stuff is not manageable by any network/server structure in this world - let alone cloud servers ... let alone the feature packed but slow AWS cloud servers ...
Post by: Narrenbart on March 02, 2017, 04:04:01 PM
https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/comments/5x0b8e/star_citizen_avatar_creation_3dlateral_tech/
That means basically Chris Roberts invented Blendshapes ...
Post by: dsmart on March 03, 2017, 09:52:28 AM
But at the moment they are happy cause there was a company ... that works for CIG ... that has done a prototypechareye customizer ... through blendshapes.
https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/comments/5x0b8e/star_citizen_avatar_creation_3dlateral_tech/
That means basically Chris Roberts invented Blendshapes ...
Yup. It's hilarious that every time ED has them on the ropes, they pull a stunt like this. I
Post by: dsmart on March 03, 2017, 04:12:43 PM
9 more months to 3.0 :D
Remember back when I said 3.0 didn't even exist (http://dereksmart.com/forums/topic/star-citizen-musings/#post-5222)? So now, by end of Q1/17, backers get 2.6.2.
The biggest issue here is that croberts inadvertently set them up to fail. Right off the bat.
Once money started rolling in, the pressure to produce goes up. Then once Nov 2014 was missed (by 28 months now) - and more money came in - the pressure increased exponentially.
So of course the longer it takes, the more it costs. The more it costs, the more money they will need to raise. The game isn't finished, so they can't monetize it. So they monetize the concept and ship sales. And that in turn adds more pressure because backers then get even more nervous.
Then croberts goes on the record (http://dereksmart.com/forums/topic/star-citizen-musings/#post-5198) and says they will need on-going funding to finish the game. And if that doesn't happen, at least they will have enough to finish SQ42. A game which isn't even close to the Star Citizen (aka PU) that backers put all this money in.
The schedule is a clear indication that the game is a long - long - way off. Which is why they dare not be truthful about it, nor release the "real" internal schedule.
Which is why this statement in the schedule (https://robertsspaceindustries.com/schedule-report) is patently FALSE
Quote
IV.Internal schedules, the ones you will now be privy to, tend to have aggressive dates to help the team focus and scope their tasks, especially in the case of tech development. Every team, even a team blessed with the kind of support and freedom you have allowed us, needs target dates in order to focus and deliver their work.
For the above to be true, that would mean there is no 3.0 schedule because that build doesn't exist. If it does in fact exist, why is it not in the public schedule that they're claiming backers are now "privy" to?
...then there's my recap (http://www.dereksmart.com/forum/index.php?topic=29.msg954#msg954).
Post by: Flashwit on March 04, 2017, 11:24:47 AM
The delusion is strong.
Post by: nightfire on March 04, 2017, 04:57:18 PM
The schedule is a clear indication that the game is a long - long - way off. Which is why they dare not be truthful about it, nor release the "real" internal schedule.
Considering how many times the schedule mentions "bug fixing / polish", and how it focuses on so many petty tech details, I'm starting to doubt that the game will get much further than 2.6.2 at all.
Maybe they've decided by now that a 2.6.2 - 2.7 - 2.7.1 - 2.7.2… patch progression is most likely to carry them through 2017/2018 (with the key feature of 2.7 being the least complex 3.0 item which can be thrown together in a superficially working state, and later updates to that feature plus new ship concepts to keep backers at bay). Regarding how to proceed beyond that, they've probably agreed to cross the bridge when they get there in 2019.
Post by: dsmart on March 05, 2017, 05:41:17 AM
The schedule is a clear indication that the game is a long - long - way off. Which is why they dare not be truthful about it, nor release the "real" internal schedule.
Considering how many times the schedule mentions "bug fixing / polish", and how it focuses on so many petty tech details, I'm starting to doubt that the game will get much further than 2.6.2 at all.
Maybe they've decided by now that a 2.6.2 - 2.7 - 2.7.1 - 2.7.2… patch progression is most likely to carry them through 2017/2018 (with the key feature of 2.7 being the least complex 3.0 item which can be thrown together in a superficially working state, and later updates to that feature plus new ship concepts to keep backers at bay). Regarding how to proceed beyond that, they've probably agreed to cross the bridge when they get there in 2019.
Yeah, that's my thinking as well. But lets face it; they can brand any build as 3.0, seeing as they don't tend keep to any of their milestone descriptions anyway. To wit: network bind culling and others from 2.6.0 are now no longer in the schedule.
Post by: dsmart on March 06, 2017, 05:46:09 AM
Quote
Star Citizen 2.6.1 was released on February 18th, so conservatively 14 days ago. Only 5 players have more than 28 hours played of Last Man, and no player has more than 28 hours played of Elimination. Only 43 players have played more than 14 hours of either game mode.
Star Marine is dead.
...meanwhile, over there (https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/comments/5xm15v/remember_where_we_started_and_look_where_were/dejemlc/)
Post by: Narrenbart on March 24, 2017, 04:46:31 PM
Wait a moment ... they are using flowgraphs to create their game???
I can understand using flowgraphs for macro stuff like AI behaviour or Shader but ... game mechanics? This is valid for Tetronimo games but complex stuff will fuck up your flowgraph to a mess in no time ...
Well on the other hand it could be just a show off for the compentence level of their
Post by: Lir on March 26, 2017, 05:49:49 AM
[...] complex stuff will fuck up your flowgraph to a mess in no time ... [...]
Indeed; But we're talking about Star Citizen here :D
Post by: Flashwit on April 01, 2017, 09:48:45 AM
https://promotions.newegg.com/nepro/17-2173/index.html
Post by: dsmart on April 02, 2017, 08:47:43 AM
Haha, I can't help but think that this is Newegg throwin' some collateral shade at Star Citizen
https://promotions.newegg.com/nepro/17-2173/index.html
Yeah, that was hilarious.
Post by: dsmart on April 02, 2017, 09:06:14 AM
Hilariously, they pushed it live 3hrs after it went to the PTU. :supaburn:
Post by: Scruffpuff on April 02, 2017, 12:23:11 PM
So they rushed 2.6.2 (https://robertsspaceindustries.com/comm-link/transmission/15807-Star-Citizen-Alpha-262-Is-LIVE) out just so they could say they met the Mar deadline. It's broke AF (https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/comments/62tavs/262_poor_work/). Over 150+ bugs (https://robertsspaceindustries.com/community/issue-council/star-citizen-alpha?sort=newest&pagesize=25&page=6) logged so far.
Hilariously, they pushed it live 3hrs after it went to the PTU. :supaburn:
This is the thing that really burns me about this project. Not only is it a scam, it's an open-faced scam, on par with Scientology, and they're showing an incredible amount of contempt for their backers. It's almost as if they're trying to shove it in the faces of other publishers and developers just how far they can go and still have their base of devoted backers, whereas real developers have to treat their customers with a modicum of respect.
It's insulting to their backers, and it's insulting to the industry in general. Really it's an insult to anyone who actually works for a living. Nothing that happens to Chris after this is too much.
Post by: Phraccy on April 03, 2017, 03:09:29 AM
So they rushed 2.6.2 (https://robertsspaceindustries.com/comm-link/transmission/15807-Star-Citizen-Alpha-262-Is-LIVE) out just so they could say they met the Mar deadline. It's broke AF (https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/comments/62tavs/262_poor_work/). Over 150+ bugs (https://robertsspaceindustries.com/community/issue-council/star-citizen-alpha?sort=newest&pagesize=25&page=6) logged so far.
Hilariously, they pushed it live 3hrs after it went to the PTU. :supaburn:
true, but to be fair....that was just the last iteration of the PTU build. 2.6.2 went to PTU on Tuesday IIRC. Buat anyway, I agree that they pushed it out just to prove a point .... Really feel sorry for all the backers still hoping for that awesomesauce patch 3.0 that will magically fix everything...
Post by: dsmart on April 03, 2017, 08:54:33 AM
So they rushed 2.6.2 (https://robertsspaceindustries.com/comm-link/transmission/15807-Star-Citizen-Alpha-262-Is-LIVE) out just so they could say they met the Mar deadline. It's broke AF (https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/comments/62tavs/262_poor_work/). Over 150+ bugs (https://robertsspaceindustries.com/community/issue-council/star-citizen-alpha?sort=newest&pagesize=25&page=6) logged so far.
Hilariously, they pushed it live 3hrs after it went to the PTU. :supaburn:
true, but to be fair....that was just the last iteration of the PTU build. 2.6.2 went to PTU on Tuesday IIRC. Buat anyway, I agree that they pushed it out just to prove a point .... Really feel sorry for all the backers still hoping for that awesomesauce patch 3.0 that will magically fix everything...
Yes it was; and that was my point. These bugs were already known in that PTU build; but they pushed it live anyway.
Post by: Ghostmaker on April 03, 2017, 11:11:45 AM
So they rushed 2.6.2 (https://robertsspaceindustries.com/comm-link/transmission/15807-Star-Citizen-Alpha-262-Is-LIVE) out just so they could say they met the Mar deadline. It's broke AF (https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/comments/62tavs/262_poor_work/). Over 150+ bugs (https://robertsspaceindustries.com/community/issue-council/star-citizen-alpha?sort=newest&pagesize=25&page=6) logged so far.
Hilariously, they pushed it live 3hrs after it went to the PTU. :supaburn:
true, but to be fair....that was just the last iteration of the PTU build. 2.6.2 went to PTU on Tuesday IIRC. Buat anyway, I agree that they pushed it out just to prove a point .... Really feel sorry for all the backers still hoping for that awesomesauce patch 3.0 that will magically fix everything...
Yes it was; and that was my point. These bugs were already known in that PTU build; but they pushed it live anyway.
"You couldn't get away with releasing a buggy game in the cartridge and cassette days; you'd be sentenced to trampling by the company brontosaurus." --Ben 'Yahtzee' Croshaw, during his STALKER: Clear Sky review.
I skimmed the Reddit thread, my personal favorite was 'Well, it's still in Alpha...'
Really? How long has this game been in development and in Alpha? By the holy Nolan Bushnell himself, I have Early Access games in my Steam library that are more coherent and 'complete' (even though they're still 'under development').
Post by: dsmart on April 05, 2017, 03:59:30 PM
So they rushed 2.6.2 (https://robertsspaceindustries.com/comm-link/transmission/15807-Star-Citizen-Alpha-262-Is-LIVE) out just so they could say they met the Mar deadline. It's broke AF (https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/comments/62tavs/262_poor_work/). Over 150+ bugs (https://robertsspaceindustries.com/community/issue-council/star-citizen-alpha?sort=newest&pagesize=25&page=6) logged so far.
Hilariously, they pushed it live 3hrs after it went to the PTU. :supaburn:
As I hilariously predicted from the rushed 2.6.2 patch, they've now pushed an "out of band" 2.6.3 (https://robertsspaceindustries.com/spectrum/community/SC/forum/1/thread/alpha-2-6-2-ptu-status-evocati-testing) patch to Evocati.
It's as if they rushed 2.6.2 out in time for the latest (failing) Drake ship sale (http://www.dereksmart.com/forum/index.php?topic=53.msg1329#msg1329). No, that couldn't possibly be it.
Patch notes
Quote
Star Citizen Patch 2.6.3
Welcome to Alpha PTU 2.6.3! This patch is primarily dedicated to bug fixes, with continued focus on stability and game performance!
During this initial testing phase, PTU access will be restricted to a small group of players that we will expand on over time as required. Your launcher should show “2.6.3-523117” as the client version. It is strongly recommended that players delete their USER folder for the Test client after patching, particularly if you start encountering any odd character graphical issues or crash on loading. The USER folder can be found (in default installations) at C:\Program Files\Cloud Imperium Games\StarCitizen\Test.
Please review our current list of Patch 2.6.3 Known Issues, and take full advantage of our Issue Council area of the Community site to report any bugs you encounter, as well as contribute to other players submissions.
Important Issues:
No issues to report!
Updates and Fixes
Star Systems:
Crusader
Fixed another issue causing the ASOP terminals to state “All pads are full” in error.
Game Systems:
Star Marine
Fixed an issue where players who stayed in their spawn rooms at the end of round 2 should no longer see themselves die at the beginning of round 3. Fixed several collision and environmental issues found within Echo Eleven.
Technical:
Fixed a number of client crashes. Made a number of performance tweaks to Echo Eleven and OP Station Demien.
Post by: dsmart on April 07, 2017, 01:41:05 PM
Post by: dsmart on April 08, 2017, 07:24:44 AM
So they rushed 2.6.2 (https://robertsspaceindustries.com/comm-link/transmission/15807-Star-Citizen-Alpha-262-Is-LIVE) out just so they could say they met the Mar deadline. It's broke AF (https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/comments/62tavs/262_poor_work/). Over 150+ bugs (https://robertsspaceindustries.com/community/issue-council/star-citizen-alpha?sort=newest&pagesize=25&page=6) logged so far.
Hilariously, they pushed it live 3hrs after it went to the PTU. :supaburn:
As I hilariously predicted from the rushed 2.6.2 patch, they've now pushed an "out of band" 2.6.3 (https://robertsspaceindustries.com/spectrum/community/SC/forum/1/thread/alpha-2-6-2-ptu-status-evocati-testing) patch to Evocati.
It's as if they rushed 2.6.2 out in time for the latest (failing) Drake ship sale (http://www.dereksmart.com/forum/index.php?topic=53.msg1329#msg1329). No, that couldn't possibly be it.
Patch notesQuoteStar Citizen Patch 2.6.3
Welcome to Alpha PTU 2.6.3! This patch is primarily dedicated to bug fixes, with continued focus on stability and game performance!
During this initial testing phase, PTU access will be restricted to a small group of players that we will expand on over time as required. Your launcher should show “2.6.3-523117” as the client version. It is strongly recommended that players delete their USER folder for the Test client after patching, particularly if you start encountering any odd character graphical issues or crash on loading. The USER folder can be found (in default installations) at C:\Program Files\Cloud Imperium Games\StarCitizen\Test.
Please review our current list of Patch 2.6.3 Known Issues, and take full advantage of our Issue Council area of the Community site to report any bugs you encounter, as well as contribute to other players submissions.
Important Issues:
No issues to report!
Updates and Fixes
Star Systems:
Crusader
Fixed another issue causing the ASOP terminals to state “All pads are full” in error.
Game Systems:
Star Marine
Fixed an issue where players who stayed in their spawn rooms at the end of round 2 should no longer see themselves die at the beginning of round 3. Fixed several collision and environmental issues found within Echo Eleven.
Technical:
Fixed a number of client crashes. Made a number of performance tweaks to Echo Eleven and OP Station Demien.
Totally called it. 2.6.3 is live (https://robertsspaceindustries.com/spectrum/community/SC/forum/1/thread/star-citizen-alpha-2-6-3-publish-to-live). Next up, 2.6.4
Post by: dsmart on April 10, 2017, 10:09:21 AM
Post by: Darklegend1 on April 10, 2017, 11:42:24 AM
Their obvious 2.6.3 fix to the "full launch pads" bugs, created a problem (ships spawning inside other ships) being experienced by a lot of people
lol 2.6.3 :laugh: :laugh: . I understand cig is trying to buy as much time as possible but i cant understand why people are even bothered to download these 25 gb updates that are adding nothing new ...lol 25 gb for minor bug fixes...sue me :laugh: :laugh:
Post by: Darklegend1 on April 10, 2017, 11:45:57 AM
Post by: dsmart on April 10, 2017, 04:09:41 PM
and i am sure as soon as they drop whatever they are now calling 3.0 , moron whales will go mad and will start throwing money at cig as always. and plz derek find out what cig is paying boredgamer, his lies and deception are at its peak. :laugh:
I have no reason to believe that they will get to 3.0. At least not a version that contains what they've been promising for almost a year now.
Post by: dsmart on April 18, 2017, 01:14:00 PM
Post by: dsmart on April 18, 2017, 01:35:52 PM
Post by: dsmart on April 19, 2017, 05:27:47 PM
Post by: dsmart on April 22, 2017, 06:12:59 AM
https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/comments/66ux3c/300_and_global_progress_watch_update_20170421/
Quote
The major change this week in 3.0.0 is the delay of the network bind / unbind, which is now schedule AFTER the 3.0.0 release. Since it's a stetch goal, I think it's safe to say it probably won't be met, and therefore not included in 3.0.0. This has important implications, since it's the component responsible for improving dramatically the FPS by reducing the amount of useless data each client has to process.
Another big change is the volumetric fog, which has been delayed by 25 days. But it's still far from being a problem, since it was scheduled very early.
https://robertsspaceindustries.com/schedule-report
I like how the oft-delayed network revision - the core of the engine - is now an imaginary "stretch goal". wat!?
https://robertsspaceindustries.com/funding-goals
Post by: nightfire on April 22, 2017, 08:39:48 AM
I like how the oft-delayed network revision - the core of the engine - is now an imaginary "stretch goal". wat!?My goodness. For months we've been hearing how pivotal "3.0" and the "fixed netcode" would be for the development of the game, both terms being used as standard boilerplate to counter virtually any complaint one could have about bugs or missing features in the current state. Once the netcode was fixed, poof, the game would be able to run a shit ton of instances lag free, capital ships and multi-crew would become possible, and everything else would finally come together as well.
And now, "over there" the cultists are already starting to revise history, claiming that "3.0" never was a big deal in the first place, and that the "fixed netcode" wasn't planned to be part of it yet anyway, let alone the need to "rewrite the netcode from scratch" which until recently was the common understanding.
Post by: dsmart on April 22, 2017, 12:40:32 PM
And now, "over there" the cultists are already starting to revise history, claiming that "3.0" never was a big deal in the first place, and that the "fixed netcode" wasn't planned to be part of it yet anyway, let alone the need to "rewrite the netcode from scratch" which until recently was the common understanding.
Yeah, it's amazing to watch those ass-clowns revise history. Just wait for what comes next. It's amazing.
Post by: StanTheMan on April 22, 2017, 05:59:13 PM
Post by: dsmart on April 23, 2017, 08:53:22 AM
They still don't get that it is their MVP.
No, they really don't.
They already started removing items from 3.0 schedule (https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/comments/66ux3c/300_and_global_progress_watch_update_20170421/), even though it's not even one week old yet. They did the same thing when they rushed 2.6.0 out last Christmas after croberts was saying 3.0 was coming before Dec 19th, 2016. Then right up to the recently released 2.6.3, they had removed several critical items. So what should've been 2.7, ended up now being 3.0 which doesn't even contain 25% of what was promised (http://dereksmart.com/forums/topic/star-citizen-musings/#post-5238) to be in 3.0 - last Aug 2016.
I believe that 3.0, whatever ends up in it, is the MVP that croberts has been threatening for over a year now. They have not only run out of time and money, but key people have left, are leaving, and sources tell me there are several more on the way out because they've started trimming the four (!) studios around the world due to dwindling finances. Which explains the latest referral cash grab which the community (this is a 4K upvoted Reddit thread on that (https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/comments/66qrlc/cig_your_marketing_is_too_far_ahead_of_itself/)) has been revolting against.
And if you haven't yet got wind of the latest Hello Kitty fiasco and referral system (http://dereksmart.com/forums/topic/star-citizen-musings/#post-5254); it's truly hilarious.
When you think about what happened to the Lily drone and similar projects, whereby State/Fed officials had to get involved because they were a public concern, that's precisely what I see happening in the end. Especially since most of the execs involved have been involved in similar ventures here and overseas, and which led to failure and loss of investor money. It's all very well documented as I wrote here last month (http://dereksmart.com/2017/03/star-citizen-money-laundromat/).
As to the 3.0 planets (there aren't any), just as I predicted some months back (http://dereksmart.com/forums/topic/star-citizen-musings/#post-4725), sources are telling me that the reason they can't do planets, only moons and asteroids which can be placed in the space scenes like stations, is because they simply can't get it to work. Let alone have entire planetary bodies which support seamless space<->planetary transitions as they've been promising. And even placing these moons in the scene, ends up in a major performance issue; not to mention networking problems.
Let's not forget that, now in Summer 2017, 6 years and almost $150 million later, assuming they do release a 3.0 with these moons, they still haven't completed 1 of the 110 systems (https://starcitizentracker.github.io/) they promised for the game. All of which contain stations, planets, moons, asteroid fields etc. This is the game's star map (https://robertsspaceindustries.com/starmap). Not even 1% of that is built.
I get that some backers have hope; but between the reputation management accounts being created all over the place, the fake Star Citizen "reviews/previews" by sites nobody ever heard of, all they're doing is one massive disinformation campaign. And the toxic backers (who were mobilized by actions taken by CIG themselves (http://www.dereksmart.org/2015/08/star-citizen-how-i-got-involved/) these past years) who are waging an Internet wide war against dissent, some of whom we believe to be actively engaged in money laundering via the Grey market, have just made things a whole lot worse; and that has completely tainted the project.
As I said back in July 2015 when I wrote that first blog, these past two years, I haven't seen anything that has swayed my opinion that either of these games will ever see the light of day as promised.
When I backed this game in Nov 2012, never in my wildest dreams, did I think that it would come to this. It's all just so very sad.
Post by: nightfire on April 23, 2017, 09:32:02 AM
Let's not forget that, now in Summer 2017, 6 years and almost $150 million later, assuming they do release a 3.0 with these moons, they still haven't completed 1 of the 110 systems (https://starcitizentracker.github.io/) they promised for the game. All of which contain stations, planets, moons, asteroid fields etc. This is the game's star map (https://robertsspaceindustries.com/starmap). Not even 1% of that is built.
https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/comments/672z98/how_can_the_possibly_make_all_those_planets_for/
Even now, some backers still believe that once the Miracle Tool (aka "SolEd", wtf?) has been crafted, entire systems can be put together with "copy/paste", and that it will only take a day to make a planet. Let's forget for a moment that in a different saga, an Entity much more resourceful than CIG had to put in an entire 7 day week to make that work… but then again, not everyone understands game development :D
Post by: dsmart on April 23, 2017, 10:32:01 AM
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C-HRr54XUAAgcYU.jpg)
Post by: dsmart on April 23, 2017, 10:35:29 AM
Let's not forget that, now in Summer 2017, 6 years and almost $150 million later, assuming they do release a 3.0 with these moons, they still haven't completed 1 of the 110 systems (https://starcitizentracker.github.io/) they promised for the game. All of which contain stations, planets, moons, asteroid fields etc. This is the game's star map (https://robertsspaceindustries.com/starmap). Not even 1% of that is built.
https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/comments/672z98/how_can_the_possibly_make_all_those_planets_for/
Even now, some backers still believe that once the Miracle Tool (aka "SolEd", wtf?) has been crafted, entire systems can be put together with "copy/paste", and that it will only take a day to make a planet. Let's forget for a moment that in a different saga, an Entity much more resourceful than CIG had to put in an entire 7 day week to make that work… but then again, not everyone understands game development :D
They're morons.
Looks like whoever created that thread, saw me tweet a link (https://twitter.com/dsmart/status/856176117614596097) to my post earlier today.
Post by: StanTheMan on April 23, 2017, 01:11:09 PM
Some of these Star Citizen backers are completely broken (https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/comments/672kdd/lol_i_think_i_prayed_for_star_citizen_last_night/)
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C-HRr54XUAAgcYU.jpg)
Needs modifying for Star Citizen
(https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/564x/d6/46/bb/d646bbee10b9579ae799ad7cde5ba18a.jpg)
Post by: J How on April 23, 2017, 03:23:24 PM
Difficulty with Citizens who are frequent visitors to reddit, they are too far gone to notice. The white knights and the sub groups is they will not accept the MVP hasn't been delivered. No matter what is put out, the "fans" will lap it up and spend more money on SC.
Is it long term sustainable? Doubt it
For the time being, the "fans" will be those who realise new backers are either not forthcoming, or just not spending money on the project. The hardline "fans" will then put down more money on Star Citizen or potentially create new accounts to "support" the project.
The difficulty normal (non SC fans) when seeing their posts is that,
A) The negativity - any criticism is immediately Derek Smart or Goons
B) They see the SC reddit and just back away naturally
C) See the comments on SC reddit and decide not to partake in the community at large (bad for new players as the manual is hardly up to scratch)
D) Get into the community and realise how toxic it is (not talking all SC fans, a minority is toxic but brings the whole group down)
E) Look at the RSI website and look at the cost of the larger packages (although the site is hardly clear at the moment)
F) SC mentions is pcgaming or any games journalist site (positive or negative) are like giant magnets for both sides of the argument and you can't have a rational conversation there, on either side - not talking goons either (those shouting block capitals SCAM)
Without going in to things which need to be proven (funding tracker being false, paid reddit posts, etc) already it's hardly opening with arms welcome to new players. The more SC appears to fail, the more the "fans" believe it is succeeding. Not getting in to the topic of how badly it is failing and behind schedule, think they are going to go all out and cause havoc if the new version drops - and some are not happy with it.
If SC 3.0 or 2.7 is bad, then rather than blame CIG, they will blame Derek Smart and Goons. How far they will go (usual death threats, attempted DOXing, lies, swatting, turning up at people's houses) at this point i would not put anything past them, again to me some do seem to have clear and genuine mental health issues. With the money being dropped into SC I'm concerned that we will have "fans" doing some extreme things to support the game, can't say what for sure but I do see it happening.
Post by: nightfire on April 23, 2017, 03:33:19 PM
Needs modifying for Star Citizen
(http://i.imgur.com/zcNjPmS.jpg)
Post by: StanTheMan on April 23, 2017, 03:49:42 PM
Perfect..Needs modifying for Star Citizen
(http://i.imgur.com/zcNjPmS.jpg)
Post by: dsmart on April 24, 2017, 05:38:42 AM
If SC 3.0 or 2.7 is bad, then rather than blame CIG, they will blame Derek Smart and Goons. How far they will go (usual death threats, attempted DOXing, lies, swatting, turning up at people's houses) at this point i would not put anything past them, again to me some do seem to have clear and genuine mental health issues. With the money being dropped into SC I'm concerned that we will have "fans" doing some extreme things to support the game, can't say what for sure but I do see it happening.
They won't do shit. These are cowardly fuck ups in the dregs of society who talk big on the Internet. The project will die, and when it does, that's all they're going to be doing: talking. They will find a way to hand wave it all away, some will find a way to justify it, someone to blame etc, while others will never admit that they were played for suckers. Instead, they will be writing about how trying and failing to do something is OK, that they were along for the ride, that they knew it stood a chance of failure etc.
At the end of the day, none of that will change anything. When the project fails, we all lose because this project, and the money raised around it, was a once in a lifetime thing which I can say with certainty, will never happen again in gaming. No matter whose side someone happens to be on, we all - as games - end up losing anyway.
Post by: dsmart on April 24, 2017, 07:29:50 AM
(https://starcitizen.tools/images/2/2b/Ship_Pipeline_full.png)
Post by: dsmart on April 24, 2017, 08:06:34 AM
https://gfycat.com/FlickeringDefensiveBluetickcoonhound (https://gfycat.com/FlickeringDefensiveBluetickcoonhound)
Post by: Ghostmaker on April 24, 2017, 09:34:47 AM
6 years + $150 million (of other peoples money) + 500 team = visual fidelity of pooping in your space suit.
https://gfycat.com/FlickeringDefensiveBluetickcoonhound (https://gfycat.com/FlickeringDefensiveBluetickcoonhound)
:wtchris:
Eight zillion videos of people shooting REAL GUNS on Youtube, and they cranked THIS out?
Jerry Miculek doesn't make those faces. Hell, FPSRussia doesn't make those faces.
:black101:
Post by: StanTheMan on April 25, 2017, 08:36:40 AM
6 years + $150 million (of other peoples money) + 500 team = visual fidelity of pooping in your space suit.
https://gfycat.com/FlickeringDefensiveBluetickcoonhound (https://gfycat.com/FlickeringDefensiveBluetickcoonhound)
He looks like he is trying to pass a particularly hard stool, not firing a gun.
Post by: dsmart on April 25, 2017, 12:17:29 PM
https://starcitizentracker.github.io/ (https://starcitizentracker.github.io/) has a few new visual enhancements. Added fidelity if you will.
Probably the most useful is percentages of each status:
(http://i.imgur.com/qkJ2O7u.png)
The original list comes from SC wikia (http://starcitizen.wikia.com/wiki/Development_promises), and has promise dates for prettymuch everything now. The page needs dates to tell if something is stagnant or a more recent promise.
I really did not anticipate doing this much data entry myself but even the totally open google doc got barely a handful of edits; probably half of which were just people messing around with the sorting.
The good news is once each promise has a approximate date and an optional link, I don't expect much to change very fast. CIG being themselves.
The bad news is there is still about 2 years of 10 for the chairman promises to consider. Thankfully the summaries on http://scqa.info/ (http://scqa.info/) make that much easier than watching the videos.
Post by: dsmart on April 27, 2017, 08:28:15 AM
Post by: Karmic Cake on April 27, 2017, 10:54:26 AM
6 years + $150 million (of other peoples money) + 500 team = visual fidelity of pooping in your space suit.The more things change, the more they stay the same.
https://gfycat.com/FlickeringDefensiveBluetickcoonhound (https://gfycat.com/FlickeringDefensiveBluetickcoonhound)
(http://i.imgur.com/mo1Kf5w.jpg)
Post by: dsmart on April 28, 2017, 04:42:31 AM
Some gifs of the ATV(From reddit obviously):
ATV - Preview of 3.0 moons
https://gfycat.com/PoliticalMiniatureDrafthorse (https://gfycat.com/PoliticalMiniatureDrafthorse)
"From Plant to Planet" (But that's Yela so is a moon)
https://gfycat.com/DimpledCelebratedAsiansmallclawedotter (https://gfycat.com/DimpledCelebratedAsiansmallclawedotter)
Everything looks great in the CryEngine editor; and we've seen stuff like this (who remembers Nyx?) before. Once they get it running in the client; and it's not #justanotherlevel, I'd be impressed.
Also, it's easy to see why they chose to do moons first, instead of planets. Based on the amount of work, not to mention performance issues, moons don't require that much. So basically, six years later, they are where ED and all my games were - years ago.
Post by: dsmart on May 02, 2017, 09:43:36 AM
Refresher course. Watch from 20:00 - 24:00
The Star Citizen Exclusive Interview: Erin Roberts (http://wccftech.com/star-citizen-exclusive-interview-erin-roberts/) (transcript (https://relay.sc/transcript/reverse-the-verse-special-edition))
Quote
"So with the next big release a lot of the underlying game is there and then we can look at transferring people between servers so we can have hundreds of thousands of people maybe in one instance, but that doesn’t come online until later."
HINT: It's not happening.
Post by: StanTheMan on May 02, 2017, 06:29:28 PM
He isn't looking overly excited about what Croberts is saying about those thousands of people.
He looks decidedly ill.
Post by: dsmart on May 04, 2017, 07:59:20 AM
The geezer two to the right of Roberts is the geezer that is responsible for the PU isn't he ?
He isn't looking overly excited about what Croberts is saying about those thousands of people.
He looks decidedly ill.
Yeah, Tony Zurovek is in the Green jacket. He's croberts' old buddy from decades back on similar failed projects.
Post by: dsmart on May 05, 2017, 06:17:09 AM
They used a high quality in-game render to show off SQ42 back in 2015m, without disclosing that, and making backers think that was the game quality. Par for the course I guess. So basically, two years later, there's reduced fidelity. To me, that explains why they aren't showing any actual SQ42 footage or shots - for two years now.
(http://i.imgur.com/lnZPHmY.jpg)
Post by: dsmart on May 05, 2017, 11:47:14 AM
https://clips.twitch.tv/SpinelessTenaciousCobraPipeHype
Post by: dsmart on May 09, 2017, 01:30:29 PM
Right.
Well, the folks at Amazon are on the LumberYard anniversary interview circuit. The latest one appears on GIB (http://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/2017-05-05-amazon-lumberyard-one-year-on).
Quote
"CryEngine was a starting point," Frazzini explains. "At this point, over 50% of the code in Lumberyard is written by Amazon engineers. We don't have an active commercial or strategic relationship with Crytek. We wish them the best, but where they go from here is entirely separate and different from anything we're doing with Lumberyard."
So CIG switched to LumberYard in late 2016. Even though in the current 2.6x patch, most of the core LumberYard specific files (if you have the LY sdk, you know what to look for) don't exist in the distribution, other than the AWS stuff - which they use because of LY abstraction and core level support, making it possible.
As I had suspected and written, they are basically switching - wholesale - from StarEngine (their own CryEngine custom engine) to LumberYard, while retaining whatever mods (e.g. UI, scene management) to CryEngine 3.x Actual.
Yes, if you were wondering, Chris obviously lied (https://forums.robertsspaceindustries.com/discussion/364217). Again.
Post by: dsmart on May 09, 2017, 02:39:06 PM
Wait till these guys find out that they're getting a moon/asteroid object (like bases) in the same scene - with no atmosphere or "seamless" transition.
Post by: dsmart on May 12, 2017, 02:09:36 PM
https://robertsspaceindustries.com/schedule-report (https://robertsspaceindustries.com/schedule-report)
Diff report (one month):
https://www.diffchecker.com/n6acsRz1 (https://www.diffchecker.com/n6acsRz1)
My sources were right about more cuts. Levski is out of Evocati & PTU as it was moved from June 1st to June 30th
https://twitter.com/dsmart/status/862688996035637248 (https://twitter.com/dsmart/status/862688996035637248)
Oh, here is the updated newsletter (http://mailchi.mp/cloudimperiumgames/meet-the-defender-of-the-banu-140369?e=c733d8e2e6) talking about new concept ship sale coming May 19th (https://robertsspaceindustries.com/spectrum/community/SC/forum/1/thread/spaceship-prices/163995) for $275
And they're going to be skimming an additional $5 off the top of CCU accounts (https://robertsspaceindustries.com/pledge/ship-upgrades) now. Wait until those people who have cheap $30 ships with LTI (for CCU down the road), find out they have to pay $5 more to upgrade. LOL!!
But don't worry though; this is totally not a scam; and according to those guys on Reddit, they have about $85 million in the bank :D :D :D
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C_qBGsgXcAEkVre.jpg)
Post by: StanTheMan on May 12, 2017, 03:33:08 PM
Post by: dsmart on May 13, 2017, 06:57:53 AM
(https://robertsspaceindustries.com/media/3fyylmprxutl6r/source/Medical_rep.jpg)
Post by: nightfire on May 13, 2017, 12:40:14 PM
The recently unveiled female character model from a $148 million "game"
I see what Sandi did there :golfclap:
Post by: dsmart on May 15, 2017, 12:26:11 PM
Well, they've given croberts more of the worst news ever. He can't have "seamless" space<->planet transitions because the engine can't do it. I had reported before that 3.0 (which now has moons, not planets) was just another level (like the current ones) in which they place the moon object in the scene like a station.
Who remembers this? FF to 12:48
10 for the Chairman: Episode 70, Nov 16, 2015
Quote
We don’t have planetary landing we have landings on various space stations then we have three main space stations and six or seven communication satellites scattered around the Crusade gas giant. We’re not going to have the planetary landings this year. It will be next year. It will definitely be like the CitizenCon we saw in 2014 but probably much better.
This is what he was saying it would better than.
Star Citizen CitizenCon 2014 Persistent Universe Demo, Oct 13, 2014
And this the R&D tech demo from CitizenCon 2016
Star Citizen: Procedural Planets v2, Oct 11, 2016
Chris Roberts Reddit AMA (https://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/12grru/i_am_chris_roberts_creator_of_wing_commander/c6uxth9/), Nov 1st, 2012
Quote
"You wont be able to seamlessly land on a planet from free flight (but we will have a nice in engine cinematic that feels fairly seamless).
Planets are really your "save" points and where you go to trade, upgrade your ship and get missions / hear gossip of profitable trade runs or pirating opportunities"
Word is they still can't do seamless anything.
What is this "seamless transition" nonsense anyway?
- start off in your wan...erm, space pod
- requisition your space chariot
- enter space chariot
- plot a course for the moon|planet you see in the map
- jump/fly to spherical object representing the moon|planet
- fly ahead as you enter the sphere, you breach the atmosphere and enter the moon|planet. no cut scene
- land space chariot, exit. do stuff
- to leave, enter space chariot, go vertical, reach escape velocity, breach atmosphere, end up in space
To see this in action:
- watch any movie from ED; though they only have some moons and planetoids which you can land on
- watch any movie from Battlespace Infinity (it took them forever to get it done right btw)
- watch any movie from Universal Combat. Though I cheat (to cut down on the transition time) somewhat by using an external camera transition when the moon|planet gravity grabs the ship
To have a truly seamless transition, you need a scene manager that is capable of handling not just the objects (planets, moons, stations, players, asteroid fields etc) in the space but also stuff inside them. In the case of stations, those are the internal hand-crafted levels; which is how you can land your chariot at a station, then enter it in fps.
Even though they've been touting "procedural planets" since last year, and then changed it to moons for 3.0, they are only apparently able to add moon/asteroid objects in the scene like they do stations. This will allow you to land on them like you would a station.
Apparently what you saw at CitizenCon 2016, even though they've come out and said it was R&D anyway, isn't actually working for a production client/server build. That's why they switched to moons since they are smaller, mostly rock, don't need that much detail to look interesting etc. Basically, they're doing what ED, LoD, COD:IW, ME:A et al are doing. Except that ED doesn't yet have space legs. And even they are having problems ranging from collision detect (you can fall right through the world) issues, popping, bland assets - and nothing to do. Yet, they are saying all of this is coming in mid July. Why it's not surprising that they've starting cutting stuff from 3.0 and deferring it. Which is not an issue in itself, since that happens all the time. The issue is that, once again, it's mid-2017 by the time 3.0 comes out, and sources are saying it's not going to be much progress; and certainly not what backers are thinking is coming.
I wrote this missive back (http://dereksmart.com/forums/reply/5220/) in Feb this year, about ALL THE PROCEDURAL PLANETS PROMISES TO DATE
ps: Line Of Defense does not have seamless space<->planetary transitions because 1) the bases on the planets are all handcrafted 2) they needed to be separate so that our networking tech can better handle "per scene" updates, and thus be able to handle a large number of players. Mass Effect: Adromeda also does it this way.
Remember this nonsense?
Chris Roberts on Star Citizen's Procedural Planets, Alpha 3.0, & CitizenCon (http://www.gamersnexus.net/gg/2613-chris-roberts-on-star-citizen-procedural-planets-alpha3-citizencon), September 24, 2016
Chris Roberts on Character Tech, Weather System, & Engine Architecture (http://www.gamersnexus.net/gg/2617-chris-roberts-on-character-technology-weather-system-engine-arch), September 24, 2016
Roberts: Star Citizen Is Now ‘Best Damn Everything Simulation (http://wccftech.com/roberts-star-citizen-best-damn-simulation/), Sep 27, 2016
***UPDATE - [05-16-17]***
I am getting questions about the difference between seamless and non-seamless. So let me try and explain my thoughts from a layman's perspective.
SEAMLESS TRANSITION
The planet sphere has its own ecosystem, with weather, skies, atmosphere etc. You can see it from space, and when you fly into it, you smoothly go from space to planet, and there is no cut-scene or interruption.
When you are on the surface, depending on where you are, and based on the engine (performance issues, culling etc), you should be able to see objects (e.g. station, moon, planets) in space from the planet.
This is how the upcoming Battlescape Infinity does it.
Evochron, another old game also did something similar.
My Universal Combat games also have it seamless but they use an external camera transition during the switch from space to planet and vice versa. Similar to the jump sequence, I added the camera to cut down on the time it takes to go from space to the planet surface. You can see the craft and planet in the view as it flies (with entry burn visual effects) toward the planet (all the moons and planets are procedural generated). In the game, you can select exactly where you want to enter the planet. But if you don't have an entry point selected in the Tacops computer, the engine picks one based on your direction of entry to the planet sphere. You can see it in this video (https://vimeo.com/147947830) which shows this. FF to 15:00. The only entities that are rendered in the night sky when you are on the planet, are the stars (using real time world position data btw). The engine doesn't render anything else for performance reasons.
The GALCOM Echo Squad game does it the same way because it uses the same game engine.
NON-SEAMLESS TRANSITION
Line Of Defense uses a standard loading screen (with a progress bar) after you select one of the planet bases via the jump gate map. It works the same way if you jump from a station in space to the planet using an HAIS flight suit. The engine doesn't render anything in space as seen from the planet surface. The sky, day & night transitions, atmosphere, weather (http://lodgame.com/mediapage/) etc are all powered by our custom (we use it to render the actual moons (http://lodgame.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/09/2016-09-02-06.jpg) in a separate context as seen in the sky) version of Silverlining middleware. The water is powered (http://lodgame.com/galleries/14-10-30/) by our custom version of Triton middleware. Basically, each of the 4 planetary bases, 4 space scenes are all hand-crafted in our editor in exactly the same way that we handle the 4 stations and 1 carrier. They are all individual levels, linked by jump gates and such to make it look like one large cohesive game world (http://lodgame.com/world-line-defense/). Sure we could put all 13 scenes in one big scene because we don't have that whole "64-Bit problem", but that would not only impact performance, but will also be too big a world for the number of players we're targeting. It would also not allow us to control the scene population which our networking tech (http://lodgame.com/faqs/how-is-the-game-world-divided/) was designed to help us have control over.
Mass Effect Andromeda uses a cut-scene with a very long loading time, after which you are over the base that the mission calls for.
COD:IW does it the same way as the above I believe.
STAR CITIZEN
Back in 2012, Chris was going to do it the same standard way as LOD, ME:A, COD:IW etc because that's how the CryEngine, and most engines, were designed to handle such scenes. Like Battlescape, Evochron, Universal Combat, we were able to do seamless because 1) we have procedural worlds 2) we have custom engines designed from the ground up for that.
This is what he said back in Nov 2012 (https://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/12grru/i_am_chris_roberts_creator_of_wing_commander/c6uxth9/) after they had raised a little over $2m.
Quote
You wont be able to seamlessly land on a planet from free flight (but we will have a nice in engine cinematic that feels fairly seamless). Planets are really your "save" points and where you go to trade, upgrade your ship and get missions / hear gossip of profitable trade runs or pirating opportunities
The $41m stretch goal (https://robertsspaceindustries.com/comm-link/transmission/13783-Letter-From-The-Chairman-41-Million) which they reached around Mar 31st, 2014, was the first time that procedural planet generation was mentioned. From the chairman's letter he states:
Quote
I’m incredibly happy to hit this goal as it green-lights a very important research project aimed at **improving Star Citizen’s long term future**. With this funding, we’ll be **looking into procedural generation** to help build the universe out in a greater detail and scope **in ways we didn’t think possible when we started developing the game**! We will have some exciting **announcements to make down the line** involving some of the talent we’ve been talking to about helping us with procedural system and planet building.
Procedural Generation R&D Team – This stretch goal will allocate funding for Cloud Imperium to develop procedural generation technology for future iterations of Star Citizen. Advanced procedural generation will be necessary for creating entire planets worth of exploration and development content. A special strike team of procedural generation-oriented developers will be assembled to make this technology a reality.
From the CitizenCon 2016 presentation, they had an R&D showcase which backers were led to believe is what was actually coming in the game client. That set the stage for backer anticipation for 3.0 because it seemed to represent a major milestone in the project. We come to later find out that it was R&D and not indicative of the game client. That 2016 presentation showed what appears to be a seamless space to planet transition, though most people later noticed the glitch (not just in the sandworm) in the scripted sequence
Months later, they went from planet to moons instead for 3.0. We still don't know why, but the speculation is that moons are barren and easier to populate than entire planetary masses. And also they can be constructed like standard objects in a level - with no atmosphere and such - negating the need for any of that seamless nonsense which they can't get working anyway.
The interesting part is that why didn't they just use the tech shown from CitizenCon if that was actual production quality client code and not something they slapped together like they always do? They did the same thing with many previous presentations such as Star Marine, Nyx, Pupil to Planet etc. And each time, they raised money because most backers are gullible in believing that stuff done in a game engine editor sort of just works in the game client. Hint: It doesn't.
In a game engine editor, you can build a base as a level and make it look like a moon or asteroid (e.g. remember Nyx?). In the game world, it would be like any other object except that it looks different. This is how the other bases in the PU currently are created and put in the game world in the editor. So if they built a moon, put a base on it, then positioned it in the game world, it would be the same as any other base already in the game world. That means you can fly to and from it - seamlessly - without the need for cut-scenes. You could also land in fps and do the same things you currently can in the other bases.
Even so...
Will it have its own ecosystem, weather patterns, day & night transition, atmosphere etc? Maybe not because moons tend not to have that, as they are usually barren rock or pure gas.
Will they fake atmosphere with a skybox which is only shown when you are on the moon, or leave it open like they do when you are on the platform at one of the current bases? Elite Dangerous leaves it open. Both ME:A and LOD have their own atmosphere because the bases are their own individual scene levels.
Going into GamesCon and CitizenCon 2016, Chris was saying all kinds of things, most of them just complete and utter bullshit - and lies. Mostly lies. For example:
Procedural Generation (“Planets V2”) (http://www.gamersnexus.net/gg/2613-chris-roberts-on-star-citizen-procedural-planets-alpha3-citizencon)
Quote
“An artist can crank out five or six moons in a week for you,” Roberts told us, emphasizing that “once you've got your building blocks, somethings will be quicker. There isn't going to be a matter where we hit a magic number and, 'boof,' here comes a planet.”
Yet somehow, after promising over 100 systems, all containing God only knows how many moons and planets, as 3.0 approaches, and having changed from planets to moons (or planetoids), and moved 1 of them from 3.0 into 3.1, they are only coming out with 2 moons.
This is what was promised back in 2014 after passing $41 million in Mar that year.
Star Citizen’s Procedural Generation Explored (http://www.gamersnexus.net/news/1602-pax-star-citizen-procedural-generation-interview)
Quote
"We are going to use it as a tool for universe building. I know a lot of people think Star Citizen is purely hand-crafted and that something like Elite or No Man's Sky is all procedural, but the reality is that all of these games have a mix of hand-crafted and procedural stuff in them."
CIG has been promoting procedural world generation since they reached $41m over two years ago. Then in late 2016 they started promoting procedural generated planets in 3.0. They are now going to be delivering moons instead, but nobody knows how they are going to do it, and if they are seamless or not. If the moons are the bases of future tech which would see the promised planets then until they do it, I think speculation is going to be going on for months to come.
If they are using hand-crafted moons which are not procedural generated, but are just hand-crafted levels (like the existing stations in the game world) with procedural techniques used for generating terrain data and such, does that make much of a difference? I don't think so because as long as there is no cut-scene, I don't think that it makes any difference to gameplay. But that would depend on backer expectations.
In the long term, I personally can't think of any explanation that they would have for making planets like moons without doing it one of two ways:
- seamless space<->planet transition in which the planets are their own bodies
This is what they were showcasing at CitizenCon 2016 as R&D in a constrained and controlled environment. And this is the tech that sources say they are still struggling with, they can't make it work in a multiplayer client, and that was the basis to go with moons instead for 3.0. - cut-scene loading transition
They already have quantum travel visual FX. So they could do it the same way that LOD, ME:A and COD:IW do it. Which makes it "just another level" that's just an entity trigger in the larger PU world.
None of this matters. At the end of the day, the real issue is what do backers who funded a $1m stretch goal for "R&D" in this area, think of the end result? Will they be happy with bases on moon objects? Will they patiently wait for real planets to show up some time down the road? Will they continue to fund the project until CIG gets around to solving the problem?
Right now, sources are saying that they still don't have the tech, they are still deep in Star Engine -> LumberYard transition, that 3.0 is still a pipe dream with more cuts (thus making it a lot like 2.7, than the ground-breaking 3.0 they've been promoting) to come. In about two months, we'll see.
***UPDATE - [05-17-17]***
For those who DON'T know the difference...
https://twitter.com/dsmart/status/864667015977553928
Example:
SEAMLESS WORLD
All my games (http://3000ad.com/games/) which use the same engine (improved over time and across various iterations) have a seamless world. This means that there are no individual scenes (aka levels) to load. The entire game is one cohesive, data driven, procedural world.
It is also important to note that this engine has several explicit renderers for space and planets. The only games which have a completely different, non-procedural planetary terrain engine, are All Aspect Warfare and Angle Of Attack games. And they have no space combat component.
NON-SEAMLESS WORLD
Line Of Defense (http://lodgame.com) is our only game with a completely new custom engine which has individual scenes (4 space, 4 planets, 4 stations, 1 carrier).
STAR CITIZEN
All the modules (Star Marine (https://robertsspaceindustries.com/comm-link/transmission/15646-Star-Citizen-Alpha-26-With-Star-Marine-Available), Hangar (https://robertsspaceindustries.com/hangar-module), Arena Commander (https://robertsspaceindustries.com/module/arena-commander), Planetside (https://robertsspaceindustries.com/module/planetside)) are all non-seamless because they are individual levels which are loaded on-demand. In 2.6 patch update, for Star Marine, they introduced something called a "mega map (https://robertsspaceindustries.com/comm-link/transmission/15796-Around-The-Verse)" to reduce the level loading timers. It isn't what it sounds like because it's not a contiguous map generated by stitching several together. Well, read this for yourself:
Quote
“We load the Mega Map as we would a standard map. The Mega Map itself is empty, but once the Mega Map is loaded, we actually start to fill the Mega Map with content of various game modes, fire, and object containers. So, we would load the Mega Map, which is empty; load the front end, which is a set of object containers; [and] load the front-end game rules, which tells the game how to work in that game mode. The user would then pick a new game mode to play. At that point we throw away all the object containers. We throw away the game mode, [then] load in the Free Fly game mode and the Dying Star object containers, but we do that via streaming rather than a complete level load, so we are able to shave the vast majority of the load time down to a few seconds rather than long enough to warrant a load screen.”
The PU appears to have a single contiguous seamless world. What is still not clear is whether or not it is one contiguous scene, or if they "stitched" together several pieces and "demand load" pieces as you get close to a border. I wrote about this (http://dereksmart.com/forums/reply/4725/) in Oct 2016.
***UPDATE - [05-18-17]***
Added time-lapse video from Elite Dangerous showing seamless travel from a moon to a planetoid
Also Infinity Battlescape
**FIXED BROKEN FORUM LINKS**
Post by: Ghostmaker on May 16, 2017, 05:19:12 AM
The recently unveiled female character model from a $148 million "game"Uh. OK.
First off, why make her so damn plain? Realism is one thing, but most of us play games to get away from reality for a while. Why give her bags under her eyes and a face just born for frowns?
Also, the body proportions look... off. Like her legs are too short. I know, the image cuts her off at the ankles, but still. Might be a result of that though, so we'll table that objection.
The outfit looks ridiculous. The pants and jacket over top are okay, but what's with the thumb-only gloves? What the heck are THOSE supposed to be?
Maybe I'm just being a shallow guy, but I'd like my female models to at least look mildly cute or maternal. This just looks like the definition of 'cranky cat lady'.
Post by: Ghostmaker on May 16, 2017, 05:23:28 AM
ps: Line Of Defense does not have seamless space<->planetary transitions because 1) the bases on the planets are all handcrafted 2) they needed to be separate so that our networking tech can better handle "per scene" updates, and thus be able to handle a large number of players. Mass Effect: Adromeda also does it this way.
Empyrion: Galactic Survival does not do 'seamless' transition either (though it tries); there's a definite (albeit brief) load time between transitioning from space to planet or planet to space.
Still, it lets you build your own spacecraft and bases, and at least it admits it's still in Early Access.
Post by: Lir on May 16, 2017, 05:52:01 AM
The recently unveiled female character model from a $148 million "game"Uh. OK.
First off, why make her so damn plain? Realism is one thing, but most of us play games to get away from reality for a while. Why give her bags under her eyes and a face just born for frowns?
Also, the body proportions look... off. Like her legs are too short. I know, the image cuts her off at the ankles, but still. Might be a result of that though, so we'll table that objection.
The outfit looks ridiculous. The pants and jacket over top are okay, but what's with the thumb-only gloves? What the heck are THOSE supposed to be?
Maybe I'm just being a shallow guy, but I'd like my female models to at least look mildly cute or maternal. This just looks like the definition of 'cranky cat lady'.
They might have pulled those off a Cry(lumberyard? who knows who cares) stock library or something and place that model in that scenery for the occasion. I'm kidding, but the sad thing is that may well be true lol.
Edit : oh lol havent seen its a goon make up this toon seems from Fallout4
Post by: Flashwit on May 16, 2017, 09:05:23 AM
https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/comments/6bforh/procedurallygenerated_meals_for_mess_hall/
This is where we're at I guess.
Post by: StanTheMan on May 16, 2017, 03:12:05 PM
This is a real thread apparently made unironically
https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/comments/6bforh/procedurallygenerated_meals_for_mess_hall/
This is where we're at I guess.
I cant post there as I am banned.
They should be discussing procedurally generated cash in the real world to pay for the games development.
Post by: mixalot on May 16, 2017, 03:25:22 PM
Nothing about the current iteration of any of SC's in-game modules, ship sales, lore, forums, or whathaveyou has any semblance of perfection. They're all half-broken, glitched tech demos that have half of their features/concepts broken.
Now it looks like he can't even get basic character creation right.
Post by: StanTheMan on May 16, 2017, 03:48:36 PM
The problem is that Roberts isn't a perfectionist. He wants to be one and constantly uses the word 'fidelity' in every interview to make it come across that way, but he can't pull it off. He's just not smart enough.
Nothing about the current iteration of any of SC's in-game modules, ship sales, lore, forums, or whathaveyou has any semblance of perfection. They're all half-broken, glitched tech demos that have half of their features/concepts broken.
Now it looks like he can't even get basic character creation right.
Indeed. A perfectionist in his position would be able to project manage, would never have appointed their wife as VP Marketing, would not be lying at every convention and to every interviewer etc..
Post by: dsmart on May 16, 2017, 05:09:31 PM
And they're going to be skimming an additional $5 off the top of CCU accounts (https://robertsspaceindustries.com/pledge/ship-upgrades) now. Wait until those people who have cheap $30 ships with LTI (for CCU down the road), find out they have to pay $5 more to upgrade. LOL!!
But don't worry though; this is totally not a scam; and according to those guys on Reddit, they have about $85 million in the bank :D :D :D
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C_qBGsgXcAEkVre.jpg)
So following the CCU uproar, they've decided to revise that plan. And somehow they made it worse. Now instead of charging, they're just going to expire them. LOL!
https://robertsspaceindustries.com/spectrum/community/SC/forum/1/thread/spaceship-prices/175177
This quote from SA pretty much covers the most egregious parts of that:
Quote
QuoteThere is also a potential design issue related to the number of ships in the universe at launch. We are getting to the point where we need to drill down deeper on things like ship rarity, overall dispersion and the like. When we don’t know how many ships may be present at launch, this makes it much more difficult. The implications there are far-reaching: if Carracks are the most popular ship then we need to put more resources on exploration… if Buccaneers are everywhere then we need to build missions that will be challenging and fun for Bucc pilots. It’s something that touches every part of Star Citizen.
I feel like the guys who have gone back on their promise of "We'll never sell this ship again" several times to the tune of hundreds of thousands of dollars don't get to suddenly start being worried about artificial rarity on some of their spaceship jpegs. That boat sailed when CIG decided to reopen sales on limited ships like five years ago. Also, taken literally, this paragraph implies that they're doing away with the mantra of "no best ship" and plan on weighting the number and type of missions in the final game (lol) to appease owners of whatever the most common ship is, which is hilarious. I hope everyone's ready for Ace Combat: Worse And In Space, because fighters are far and away the most popular ships in the game, because CIG keeps selling more/better versions of them.
Also, there's no way this doesn't start a firestorm:QuoteThe second part is longer term, but very important: we will plan for a process to expire the unused $0 CCUs from the system. We want existing CCUs to be used as intended: to pick a ship that works for you, and not as a permanent ‘anything goes’ option. This will not happen immediately, but as we approach 3.0 it will be an important part of this process. And we want you to know in advance that this is coming.
Some people (most people, by Zyloh's own admission) have been holding on to CCU tokens with the intent to use them for the purpose they were meant for - as the game comes together you can figure out which ship best fits your playstyle and CCU to that to make your "final decision." People who have no idea how the a Reclaimer is going to work but think they might want to mine, for example. They're doing this because CIG told them to, and now CIG is taking that option away before all the ships or mechanics are even in the game.
Cross Chasis Upgrade (CCU) explained:
Basically you can upgrade from one ship to another. And if you have a CCU token, it used to be free. Last week they started charging $5 to do it. Now they are going to expire them instead.
More here: https://robertsspaceindustries.com/pledge/ship-upgrades (https://robertsspaceindustries.com/pledge/ship-upgrades)
And here: https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/comments/4b404k/psa_how_to_use_the_ccu_ship_upgrade_system_and/ (https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/comments/4b404k/psa_how_to_use_the_ccu_ship_upgrade_system_and/)
Quote
The key to it all is that you can only CCU to a ship that's currently in-game.
Let's say CIG has ships A,B,C, and D on sale in-store ready to go. You buy Ship A, but can buy a "token" to change Ship A to any of the other ships. The token costs whatever the difference is in the price of the ships, and you get to keep all the other widgets that originally came with your Ship A (LTI, Alpa access, etc...). You can buy this token, but it's not used immediately on purchase, because maybe you decide you like Ship A after all, or whatever. Who knows.
Later on, CIG announces that they are going to be making ships E,F, and G. You really want Ship G instead of Ship D, but you want to keep your LTI, so you wait and wait and wait until it gets put in the game, and CCU your Ship D to a Ship G. That's how they're supposed to be used.
Now let's say you really really want Ship D, but you want it with LTI and they're no longer offering it. They are however offering a concept sale on Ship E and it comes with LTI. You buy Ship E - still in concept - then spend dollars to CCU it to Ship D - already in game - now with LTI even though they stopped "selling" Ship D with LTI three years ago.
NOW, let's say you think you're gonna want a Ship D way down the line, but you're not sure. So you buy a bunch of tokens for each of your ships to turn them into Ship D just in case you want to way down the line. You hold on to them, eventually they put Ship D in the game but it's twice as big and $100 more than it cost when you bought the CCU tokens. The token's value doesn't change, because it allows a straight trade and you paid the difference in value at time of purchase. So now you can take your Ship A and turn it into a Ship D for $100 less than it's currently selling for, AND you still have your LTI and game package and alpha access. Even better news, LTI Ship Ds are selling on the marketplace for $100 more than they're selling for on CIG's website, so if you sell it you're up 200 bucks. So in this case it's absolutely in your best interest to just stockpile CCUs to EVERY ship possible on the off chance you decide you want one or it triples in size and price and you can make some money.
They built an insanely shitty system and now they're mad at their users for min/maxing it.
Post by: StanTheMan on May 16, 2017, 07:22:41 PM
Post by: dsmart on May 17, 2017, 04:53:11 AM
When they can't forsee the problems they create with CCUs what chance in hell do they have to foresee the ways people will make use of the PU in ways players and CIG find objectionable ?
Well in all fairness, seeing as the game stands no chance of ever getting completed, let alone coming out, there is no need to play ahead for such trivial things.
Post by: dsmart on May 17, 2017, 06:23:05 AM
Post by: Narrenbart on May 17, 2017, 07:26:06 AM
[...]Anatomically female legs are indeed shorter than male legs, this is a fact that is often forgotten because the industry sells products to make them appear longer.
Also, the body proportions look... off. Like her legs are too short. I know, the image cuts her off at the ankles, but still. Might be a result of that though, so we'll table that objection.
[...]
If you attend a drawing course this is one of the first things you'll learn here.
Well this female modell is bland as hell - download Daz3D and you can create a better one in seconds and export it as FBX (With bones and blend shapes).
Post by: BigM on May 17, 2017, 08:38:30 AM
All I have to say on that! :smug:
Post by: mixalot on May 17, 2017, 05:05:57 PM
I believe the model is perfect, it has captured a lot of Sandi and I can see where the designer made the model look just a tiny bit better looking.
All I have to say on that! :smug:
Ha, great post.
I think they used the mo-cap tech on Sandi to scan her body then tried to touch it up and add more 'fidelity' to her.
Post by: Narrenbart on May 17, 2017, 06:48:10 PM
That's not how it works :)I believe the model is perfect, it has captured a lot of Sandi and I can see where the designer made the model look just a tiny bit better looking.
All I have to say on that! :smug:
Ha, great post.
I think they used the mo-cap tech on Sandi to scan her body then tried to touch it up and add more 'fidelity' to her.
Post by: dsmart on May 18, 2017, 06:15:52 AM
LOL!! please read the LumberYard Starter Game (https://aws.amazon.com/blogs/gamedev/now-available-starter-game/) notes and see if you recognize any of the hand-waving nonsense croberts were spouting last year; long before he even told anyone they were going to switch to LumberYard.
It's hilarious to me when I think about it. Back in a July 2015 blog (http://www.dereksmart.com/2015/07/interstellar-citizens/) I said:
1) They can't build the game promised. So far, with all the stuff they've cut or botched, this is playing out to be true. In year six, they still don't even have 25% of one game, let alone two games. And they had a delivery date of Nov 2014, with a 12, then 18 month cure period to May 2016. Even though croberts had said numerous times that increased stretch goals won't affect the delivery timeline.
2) Even if they could do #1, they'd need a stellar team to pull it off. Well, here we are in year six. A lot of talented people have come and gone. Those left have never - ever - developed an MMO. And the latest producer they trotted out, Eric, has never - ever - shipped a game. Of any kind.
3) They needed a custom engine to do it. In 2016, we come to find out that they were making the switch from StarEngine to Lumberyard.
4) Even if they had all of the above, they couldn't possibly do it for less than $150 million. Well, here we are at that amount, and still not even 25% of a game, let alone two games. Not to mention that at $65 million, all stretch goals were 100% fully funded.
Post by: dsmart on May 18, 2017, 04:09:40 PM
"There is one Sun in the galaxy, which will light all of the planets"
There goes the 110 starsystems.
Post by: Meowz on May 18, 2017, 04:18:12 PM
In today's ATV @ 16:43I find it hard to believe he didn't just misspeak on that one.
"There is one Sun in the galaxy, which will light all of the planets"
There goes the 110 starsystems.
Post by: Narrenbart on May 18, 2017, 04:21:23 PM
In today's ATV @ 16:43Guess misspelled/uninformed and they mean per star system :) ... and you know there is no way to have a single light projecting over this distance :)
"There is one Sun in the galaxy, which will light all of the planets"
There goes the 110 starsystems.
Post by: dsmart on May 18, 2017, 04:23:48 PM
In fact, the starmap shows that they have Sol starsystem (http://"https://robertsspaceindustries.com/starmap?location=SOL&camera=60,0,0.002,0,0"). And Stanton system, which they are supposed to be building out, has its own star, Terra Nova (http://"https://robertsspaceindustries.com/starmap?location=TERRA.STARS.TERRANOVA&system=TERRA&camera=5,160.4,0.0003,0,0").
Post by: Narrenbart on May 18, 2017, 04:38:41 PM
I could not click on the new secret ship because I don't have VIP Access but the Sales counter is going crazy At the moment ...
(http://i.imgur.com/lrYM28T.jpg)
Post by: dsmart on May 18, 2017, 04:46:30 PM
Post by: Meowz on May 18, 2017, 04:57:36 PM
I hope he mispoke because if there is only one Sun, that's not a galaxy, it's a star system.
In fact, the starmap shows that they have Sol starsystem (http://"https://robertsspaceindustries.com/starmap?location=SOL&camera=60,0,0.002,0,0"). And Stanton system, which they are supposed to be building out, has its own star, Terra Nova (http://"https://robertsspaceindustries.com/starmap?location=TERRA.STARS.TERRANOVA&system=TERRA&camera=5,160.4,0.0003,0,0").
Gives new meaning to the quote, "Well, if there's a bright center to the universe, you're on the planet that it's farthest from." lol :coolfish:
Post by: dsmart on May 19, 2017, 05:53:32 PM
Things got pushed out another week. So the 3.0 release date is around 07/20/17 now it looks like. Seeing as they have pushed things out almost every week, with about 9 more Friday's to go, there is a chance that 3.0 could very well be pushed well into Aug, or maybe even Sept if they don't cut some things out.
The gem:
Quote
VOLUMETRIC FOG
The completion date has moved back due to unexpected issues with implementing the Volumetric fog awy from Lumberyard to work correctly with our systems.
ETA is 26th May (was 18th May)
So much for that engine switch taking days.
Post by: StanTheMan on May 19, 2017, 06:04:15 PM
Post by: dsmart on May 19, 2017, 06:33:49 PM
Quote
Since 3.0 lite's first schedule report on April 14th, the projected release date has been moved back from June 29th to (between July 6th and) July 20th.
Five weeks in and they're already one-to-three weeks behind (most likely three). That's impressive planning, even for CIG. :laffo:
If they continue at this spectacular production rate of five weeks forward, three weeks back::toot: Star Citizen: 3.0 lite in time for CitizenCon :toot:
- By June 23rd, release pushed back to August 10th
- By July 28th, release pushed back to August 31st
- By September 1st, release pushed back to September 21st
- By October 6th, release pushed back to October 12th
3.2 (3.0 full-fat, as promoted at last Gamescom for end of 2016) by CitizenCon 2018? :ohdear:
Post by: mixalot on May 24, 2017, 05:09:01 PM
Looks like some are now trying to justify it (https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/comments/6d1jzw/docking_collars_wont_be_the_last_feature_to_be/) by saying 'we always knew that Roberts couldn't deliver on everything he promised!'
Comedy gold.
Post by: StanTheMan on May 24, 2017, 07:31:15 PM
Ship-to-ship docking just got cut (https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/comments/6cxkjk/ship_to_ship_docking_postponed_after_release/) from the feature list (like Derek reported over a year ago), but backers didn't believe him at the time and now they're pissed.
Looks like some are now trying to justify it (https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/comments/6d1jzw/docking_collars_wont_be_the_last_feature_to_be/) by saying 'we always knew that Roberts couldn't deliver on everything he promised!'
Comedy gold.
Yep.
MVP here we come.
Post by: dsmart on May 24, 2017, 07:44:32 PM
Ship-to-ship docking just got cut (https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/comments/6cxkjk/ship_to_ship_docking_postponed_after_release/) from the feature list (like Derek reported over a year ago), but backers didn't believe him at the time and now they're pissed.
Looks like some are now trying to justify it (https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/comments/6d1jzw/docking_collars_wont_be_the_last_feature_to_be/) by saying 'we always knew that Roberts couldn't deliver on everything he promised!'
Comedy gold.
Oh wait. There's more coming. This is nuthin'. Did you read my latest article in the other thread about the network instancing?
Post by: Phraccy on May 26, 2017, 01:39:59 AM
Thanks!
Post by: Narrenbart on May 26, 2017, 01:53:44 AM
On top of that ... with all this planned server cluster structure in an AWS cloud, it's pretty impossible to make it local, furthermore if you are planning to have local servers you need to think of them from day one ... you can not tack them on ...
Post by: Phraccy on May 26, 2017, 01:59:19 AM
Disco Lando mentioned that Private Servers are the last thing they will look into and that some of us will be probably dead before it will be released ...
On top of that ... with all this planned server cluster structure in an AWS cloud, it's pretty impossible to make it local, furthermore if you are planning to have local servers you need to think of them from day one ... you can not tack them on ...
Thanks.
Yeah that was the biggest question mark for me too, if they want to ue the cloud structure how the fuck do you implement private servers into that??
Post by: nightfire on May 26, 2017, 12:39:56 PM
@dsmart in your recent article, you mentioned that private servers are out? Tried searching for any news on that but came up empty. Could you provide a link?
Thanks!
As Narrenbart said.
For reference, here's the original source:
Post by: dsmart on May 30, 2017, 09:18:23 AM
Quote
Related:
10FTC Episode 42 Question 9 (http://scqa.info/?show=10FTC&episode=42&qid=9)
Question: "Other large MMO games - especially "single server" sorts of universes - have historically seen large groups of players banding together in the name of "disruptive" behavior. This can take the form of denying an area of the game to other players, controlling the economy, or just generally causing havoc. What are your plans for the Star Citizen universe to accommodate the lone freelance miner caught up in the madness?
Chris Roberts: "even the largest player group in a given area will make up less than 10%. The other issue is, because we have such high fidelity, we can't have too many people in one particular instance, like in AC the limit at the moment it's only 8 people, with 1.0 we'll have some new tech that we've made that allows much greater player numbers in one instance, but even with a best case scenario at the moment of 50-100 players, there are only so many people that can be crammed into one instance. Matchmaking will help limit these things, like say an organisation might only be able to occupy a certain portion of an instance, there will be slots reserved for friends of other players in that instance as well. It won't be a case where a thousand people can get together and control an area anyway, even if they fill that instance, there could be another instance of the same space that matchmaking might put you into because you're unrelated to whatever activity is going on there."
10FTC Episode 43 Question 8 (http://scqa.info/?show=10FTC&episode=43&qid=8)
Chris Roberts:"Most planets have instanced space around them, it's not unique. So if there's a planet and you got 50 people in orbit and our limit is 50 people per instance, the 51st and 52nd player that enter that orbit get put into a second instance around the planet again, they just don't see the other 50 people etc etc"
Post by: StanTheMan on May 30, 2017, 09:30:03 AM
I just saw this post (https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen_refunds/comments/6d5xti/lets_talk_network_instancing/) in an OSC thread (in response to my latest article on networking & instancing (http://dereksmart.com/forums/topic/star-citizen-musings/#post-5263)) on RedditQuoteRelated:
10FTC Episode 42 Question 9 (http://scqa.info/?show=10FTC&episode=42&qid=9)
Question: "Other large MMO games - especially "single server" sorts of universes - have historically seen large groups of players banding together in the name of "disruptive" behavior. This can take the form of denying an area of the game to other players, controlling the economy, or just generally causing havoc. What are your plans for the Star Citizen universe to accommodate the lone freelance miner caught up in the madness?
Chris Roberts: "even the largest player group in a given area will make up less than 10%. The other issue is, because we have such high fidelity, we can't have too many people in one particular instance, like in AC the limit at the moment it's only 8 people, with 1.0 we'll have some new tech that we've made that allows much greater player numbers in one instance, but even with a best case scenario at the moment of 50-100 players, there are only so many people that can be crammed into one instance. Matchmaking will help limit these things, like say an organisation might only be able to occupy a certain portion of an instance, there will be slots reserved for friends of other players in that instance as well. It won't be a case where a thousand people can get together and control an area anyway, even if they fill that instance, there could be another instance of the same space that matchmaking might put you into because you're unrelated to whatever activity is going on there."
10FTC Episode 43 Question 8 (http://scqa.info/?show=10FTC&episode=43&qid=8)
Chris Roberts:"Most planets have instanced space around them, it's not unique. So if there's a planet and you got 50 people in orbit and our limit is 50 people per instance, the 51st and 52nd player that enter that orbit get put into a second instance around the planet again, they just don't see the other 50 people etc etc"
It is not a game worth playing if you want an MMO type experience. Far too few players can influence your gameplay -and thats if it ran well - which it isnt going to do. It is almost pointless owning anything worth anything in this type of game because you are going to have no lasting impact on the game world and can only hope to acquire assets from a very small number of other players.
it will be far far more "fun" working out how to steal or destroy the assets of those that have them than to try and preserve assets you have spent a lot of $$ on whilst doing something with them (other than holding them in a hangar to pull yourself off over)
Post by: dsmart on May 30, 2017, 09:42:46 AM
It is not a game worth playing if you want an MMO type experience. Far too few players can influence your gameplay -and thats if it ran well - which it isnt going to do. It is almost pointless owning anything worth anything in this type of game because you are going to have no lasting impact on the game world and can only hope to acquire assets from a very small number of other players.
it will be far far more "fun" working out how to steal or destroy the assets of those that have them than to try and preserve assets you have spent a lot of $$ on whilst doing something with them (other than holding them in a hangar to pull yourself off over)
Yeah. And that's going to be their problem soon because since they can't build an MMO, it is going to remain a session based game. And with those games, there is no way to save a game's state, only player stats and items.
Post by: StanTheMan on May 30, 2017, 10:13:30 AM
That's not the vast majority of the player base and in that type of system the thing has to work extremely well with sufficient gameplay.
The assets have to hold their value (even appreciate) which simply isn't going to be the case if the game is released.
So that aspect is screwed too.
Post by: dsmart on May 30, 2017, 12:21:22 PM
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DBGPg3XXsAQ2ZU7.jpg)
Post by: Motto on May 31, 2017, 03:44:17 PM
Post by: dsmart on May 31, 2017, 03:57:59 PM
And Take-Two Interactive beats them by buying another game (company). All hail the Kerbal (http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/index.php?/topic/161355-ksp-acquired-by-take-two-interactive/) :woop:
Yeah I saw that this morning. It's great for those guys!
Post by: dsmart on June 01, 2017, 05:45:13 PM
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DBRvO96XgAAuThc.jpg:large)
Post by: dsmart on June 03, 2017, 06:54:39 AM
Looks like a bunch of things are delayed but up to 3 weeks. A bunch of others are now TBD. Which means they're likely to be cut from the schedule.
At this rate, they will be lucky to have 3.0 out by Gamescom (Aug 22-26). Which means they're probably going to make it the highlight of their fundraising.
Post by: dsmart on June 03, 2017, 08:53:01 AM
(http://i.imgur.com/LAKqJBN.png)
Schedule began 7 weeks ago on April 14th 2017
(https://onedrive.live.com/view.aspx?resid=9CBA26B9B59370EB!307&ithint=file%2cxlsx&app=Excel&authkey=!AC2cXQnGjqMqsTU)
- 77 = Total tasks
- 27 (35%) = Tasks completed
- 11 (14%) = Tasks in-progress, not-delayed-yet
- 32 (42%) = Tasks in-progress, delayed
- 7 (9%) = Tasks in-progress, postponed/TBD
Post by: dsmart on June 04, 2017, 07:33:20 AM
Latest stats from https://starcitizentracker.github.io/
(http://i.imgur.com/tYvYEt6.png)
Post by: Flashwit on June 05, 2017, 09:18:20 AM
So that's something I guess.
Post by: dsmart on June 06, 2017, 11:21:09 AM
In a strange sort of way I'm impressed at their progress on 3.0. I expected even more delays than this.
So that's something I guess.
Define "progress".
Post by: Flashwit on June 06, 2017, 11:54:21 AM
In a strange sort of way I'm impressed at their progress on 3.0. I expected even more delays than this.
So that's something I guess.
Define "progress".
At this point in time, marking things as complete on the schedule diffs.
Post by: dsmart on June 09, 2017, 03:11:03 PM
So the latest 3.0 schedule (https://robertsspaceindustries.com/schedule-report) is out. Here is a diff between previous and current versions (https://www.diffchecker.com/xFvadA7j).
Looks like a bunch of things are delayed but up to 3 weeks. A bunch of others are now TBD. Which means they're likely to be cut from the schedule.
At this rate, they will be lucky to have 3.0 out by Gamescom (Aug 22-26). Which means they're probably going to make it the highlight of their fundraising.
So the latest 3.0 schedule (https://robertsspaceindustries.com/schedule-report) is out. Here is a diff between previous and current versions (https://www.diffchecker.com/oV4Ji8rF).
Everything is now delayed to July 27th: which we know they're probably going to miss. Remember when I said (see above) they'd be lucky to see this release out by Gamescom?
HIGHLIGHTS
Quote
Line 47: Procedural Planets
Line 154: Netcode
Line 162-182: Cargo
Line 180: Repair. This was feature complete in the last schedule. Now it's back on the menu + 2 weeks.
Line 208-211: Component system (in case you missed it, read my latest Quora reply (https://www.quora.com/What-computer-should-I-buy-to-play-Star-Citizen/answer/Derek-Smart) regarding performance issues)
Line 349: Volumetric Fog. Notice how it was due to be completed on June 9th (today), but somehow isn't marked as "Feature Complete"? Yeah, me too.
Line 378: Mission System Broker. Delayed a whole - freaking - month. LOL! I'm dying.
Yeah, no freaking way this gets anywhere near a July 27th release. The whole schedule is bullshit, really. On May 26th, I wrote an article (http://dereksmart.com/forums/topic/sc-scoop/#post-5276) based on leaks from sources who told me the live schedule was pure bullshit.
(https://imgur.com/AMoRQyz.gif)
Post by: dsmart on June 10, 2017, 05:32:26 AM
https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/comments/6gbzc1/300_and_global_progress_watch_update_20170609/dipjdww/
Quote
Either all you morons responding are literally IQ below 20 or you actually just are white knighting so hard you can't even see it. I AM NOT TALKING ABOUT THE FUCKING SCHEDULE. I am TALKING about the fucking LIES said last year that they were giving 3.0 by dec. 19. Which was an OBVIOUS lie. Then the fact they said JUNE. Which they OBVIOUSLY had the plan to release it at gamescom. Its fucking stupid of anyone to just think ooooh, wow, gee what a coincidence!!!! I mean give me a god damn break. For real. Stop being moronic. Schedule or NOT, they just PUT whatever they want is delayed so WHOA, MAGIC, it will be JUST IN TIME FOR GAMESCOM. FFS we all said it 1st
https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/comments/6gbzc1/300_and_global_progress_watch_update_20170609/dip957d/
Quote
Im with ellindar.
How was 3.0 supposed to release end of last year given how many things are obviously not ready and features are slipping?
You'd have to be a liar or be totally incompetent to give these kinds of estimates. My guess is that CR is both. Lying straight up about release dates to get more people on board and funding then slowly spacing it out and buying time as we are seeing here. And also completely detached from technical side of things - promising things that are straight up impossible then gutting stuff out.
I think there has been a ton of mismanagement for this project. And im losing hope fast. If 3.0 doesnt deliver something substantial im bailing. I only pledged a few hundred so whatever.
Also dont give a shit about all the cultists who pledged thousands and are too deep in the hole to have any reasonable discussion.
Post by: dsmart on June 15, 2017, 08:36:00 AM
Quote
So we've been told many times that the game's engine ('Star Engine') has been changed a lot from the original CryEngine (/Lumberyard) base, but the differences listed are usually to do with physics and gameplay features. My question is: What about the rendering/graphical side? How much has this been changed from the original CryEngine?
Quote
That's a mighty big question! Here's a quick list of the main features, but I'm sure we'll have forgotten some stuff!On top of this there's procedural asteroids and the huge amount of tech for procedural planets, but these strictly speaking aren't so much part of the renderer but higher level features that feed content to the renderer.
- Object space shader damage (allows 4 different types of damage to be permanently inflicted on ships, including cutting holes, and blended seamlessly into the base shading)
- Real time environment-probe capture and compression (avoids needing to bake probes in space and on planets)
- Image based lens flares (use entire source image to simulate 4 different physically based lens distortions per colour channel on up to 20 individual elements)
- Physically based bloom (wide exponential kernel based purely on light intensity)
- Human eye exposure simulation (capture histogram of light intensity from both screen and surroundings, isolate range of light we intend to focus on, simulate both pupil and photo-pigment reactions for quick and slow reactions)
- Major improvements to planar lights (far more physical basis now which results in major quality improvements)
- Intelligent mesh-merging system (repeatedly searches for best bang-for-buck mesh merge opportunity in a scene until we hit a memory limit)
- Upgraded volumetric fog (e.g. support for planar lights, light-boxes, env-probe priority sorting)
- Major upgrade to shadow pool system (all lights share one giant pool for better dynamic resolution scaling, shadows can be cached between frames for better performance)
- Render target pooling (shares memory between internal textures used in the renderer to vastly reduce VRAM usage)
- Render to texture pipeline (ability to render secondary viewports with full or limited feature set to then be used as textures in the primary scene, e.g. video comms or holograms)
- Tiled lighting upgrades (use rasterization light culling for greater efficiency, particle support)
- Density based LOD algorithm (LODs change based on polygon density to ensure consistent appearance, less artist intervention, and promote more optimal art assets with fewer sub-pixel polygons)
- GGX normal map filtering (gloss adjusted in mip-chain to best fit of our GGX lighting model to give the same results as super sampled normals)
- Camera relative rendering (allows 64bit world without incurring any rendering performance hit by maintaining 32bit precision for rendering)
- GPU Particle System (built from the ground up for efficiency, distinct from Lumberyards and CryEngine's GPU particle systems)
- Various improvements to transparency sorting (generalized system, allow depth of field and motion blur to not effect nearby in-focus objects, order independent transparency for specific shaders such as hair)
- Artist friendly profiler (captures statistics per art-team, and per area of the level allowing accurate breakdowns and quick diagnosing of performance issues)
- Physically based atmospheric scattering
- Hierarchical object management (efficient searches and culling, local coordinate frames for things like ships inside ships on planets which are rotating etc)
Ali Brown
Post by: dsmart on June 15, 2017, 12:00:09 PM
Quote
Coming in Around the Verse today: We look at Serialized Variables, essential network tech to building the Star Citizen Persistent Universe!
https://twitter.com/RobertsSpaceInd/status/875406669257244673 (https://twitter.com/RobertsSpaceInd/status/875406669257244673)
This is a critical networking component that was since removed from the 3.0 - 3.2 schedule. They will probably bring it back tomorrow?
Aside from that, this is someone on the game's official Twitter feed, trying to associate a networking construct with graphics performance :shrug:
Post by: dsmart on June 16, 2017, 05:01:04 AM
The hilarious part isn't that they been touting this for the better part of a year, or that it was on the 3.0 schedule, but was subsequently removed and no longer appears anywhere between 3.0 - 3.2; but the fact that they're highlighting it as something that's so overly critical, that it warrants a dev video about it. You know why that is? Because they made a big deal out of it as a way to hand wave the game's piss-poor performance. Some backers latched on this sleight of hand, foolishly thinking that it was in fact going to solve their FPS issues. In fact, take a look at my previous post above which includes a recent Twitter post.
It's all rubbish. It's them preparing the backers for the same piss-poor networking layer in the upcoming - and already doomed - 3.0 build. The backend benefits are going to be negligible at best; and it's certainly not going to mean that much to client-side FPS performance, let alone being able to cram more than 8 clients in an instance before the server coughs up moth balls and croaks. And aside from all that, this is something that they should have done right from the start, or around the time when they decided they were building an MMO after all.
This isn't even a case of putting the cart before the horse. There's just no cart. It's a JPEG of a cart.
Quote
Serialized variables is also a cornerstone of building a persistent universe, it’ll require multiple servers communicating with each other*
- This means several servers can be aware of an entity all at the same time, how they decide which one gets the final say is using tokens
- A token can only be held by one computer at a time, this means by linking serialized variables and tokens they’ll be able to transfer authority from one server to another as quickly as flicking a switch
* heh, you think (1 (http://lodgame.com/faqs/how-many-players-are-supported/), 2 (http://www.lodgame.com/downloads/LOD_wide_span_global_server.jpg))?
https://youtu.be/L4m2nwn5wT8 (https://youtu.be/L4m2nwn5wT8)
Post by: Stilo on June 16, 2017, 08:24:52 AM
http://docs.aws.amazon.com/lumberyard/latest/developerguide/network-replicas.html
UPDATE
I've seen the video..
So basically they have centralized the serialization code (using an observer or a default setter) to serialize and propagate a single variable change?
In wich world this is a revolution? And why is done now and not originally?
And the legacy code of ALL the components and Entities must be refactored to use this new system? (bugs alert! because since nobody has cared before if a variable is synchronized or not they will have to serialize all o risk some code to use an old value..)
Maybe they will use this system only in new entities/components..
Post by: dsmart on June 16, 2017, 11:14:01 AM
Here is another good write-up (https://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3800238&userid=0&perpage=40&pagenumber=1293#post473465769) by Hav, over on SA.
Quote
Thanks. (I don't advise anyone read this rant.)
Okay, the first thing he's doing is mush-mouthing the concept of 'entities' (or objects) with the idea that all the 'entities' (or objects) need to be networked. That's what we call a 'sweeping generalization', or a very reductive model. It is vaguely meaningless.
Handwave the backend communication, that's all Austin...
Client/Server communication, alright...
Okay, he's describing a problem of bandwidth and fidelity, where bandwidth is the limitation in supplying bits to the client/server and fidelity is the detail of the 'model' that it's trying to sling around. What they're doing is trying to offload the problem of a lack of awareness in the programmers into a formalized process.
Network programming is not *very hard*, and while it takes years to learn the ins and outs, stay the fuck out of the OSI model, it's layered for a reason. It's certainly _esoteric_, but it's entirely logical and while the scale can blow your mind, it's patterned behavior that just iterates really quickly.
huh, API? Why is that man using an OO analogy? Why is he refusing to call it an interface?
Oh Application _Programmer_ Interface, not Application _Program_ Interface, like the rest of the world.
None of this is networking. He's completely handwaving anything to do with networking.
Every 'entity has it's own table' is a key-value store. This is how anything persists; mysql, SQL, NoSQL, Mongo, SQLite, csv, struct. This is not complex.
Updating single values within rows usually requires re-writing the row, although you can serialize a value ad infinitum; overhead comes in how it's stored.
Sending the full entity states periodicially isn't required if you hash the entity table and look for a hash comparison. eg. The md5 hash for 'I am a delicious hawaiian pizza' is always '9b019256aabd5ae063661e6b5b78b7db'. Hash your table, send a comparison, check it, if it differs, update the full state.
Hell, I used to use a system of grouped states back in the 1990s; hashed the full store and three sub-groups because bandwidth was even tighter back then.
"We have not solved the bandwidth problem."
No shit, you still have *n problem unless you're loading spreading and doing the backbone over extremely low latency connections, which Amazon is not going to help with.
OMIGOD, they discovered key updates.
HAH subgrouping.
Wait, so their big idea is to binary-pack a key-value pair to send via UDP? That puts them back in the same place they were; TCP would indicate that a value was received, but not changed. I'm not seeing how this isn't entirely circular back to the start of the piece apart from the binary pack?
Lol at the macros being the timesaver.
Oh, dear god, previously we would have needed functions in each class, or read the chapter on polymorphism.
Admission that there's no unit testing that would stop a programmer 'forgetting' a variable.
The API is an _abstraction_ of the concrete class. I'm hoping C++ programmers can correct my shit, because there's no actual networking in this piece other than an acknowledgment that they're running into problems with physics. This is normally an _interface_ that strips down a more anal definition or model into a more bite-sized chunk so you don't spin cycles on defining the color of something if you only need it's speed. It's a way of stopping polymorphism hell.
Okay, their network engineer is describing object oriented programming. He's also tacitly admitting that they have a problem with key/value updates on an atomic level because there is finite bandwidth involved. One of the reasons why this is a problem is because there are two types of packet in the world; TCP and UDP.
UDP is just a stream of shit. It's thrown at the client and can arrive in any order, or not arrive at all. The sending side doesn't care, it's your problem to store and deal with the stream. This tends to get used with games to do positional updates, which is why tight bandwidth or throttling causes people to jump around and rubberband. UDP packets have a particular size and you want to stay inside that, or the client has to deal with trunca
TCP is pendantic. It has to be received, and received in the right order. A client will ask for a sequence again if it arrives out of order, and if it misses a packet, it'll do the same. Downloading files works like this, because getting chunks of file in the wrong order will make it useless.
if you're firing key/value updates with UDP, then some of them may not get through. Firing with TCP means they get through, eventually. This is why there is an older model of using UDP to do updates, then having TCP rebuild the key/value store. Small, frequent updates of vitals, with larger sync updates for abstracts.
He is _completely right_ about the challenges they still face; the number, frequency and priority of the messaging are _the things that will kill bandwidth_ and limit their instance occupancy, particular unless they shard that server. They're looking at packet size x packet frequency x packet quantity x player and will shag themselves over if they don't build in some of the things that Eve has been doing to calm the packetstorm.
very tl;dr - They've discovered how to do __get and __set over the network between the store and the client; news at 11. Get a goddamned refund.
Post by: J How on June 16, 2017, 12:01:10 PM
These are not new techniques, in fact I would say it's a little outdated given languages like Go handle this a lot better.
I found the token idea enlightening and remarkable, it's a very interesting direction to go in too. Constructively I see three potential pitfalls:
1) Taking into account tokens on AWS - depending on the size of their EC2 instances that it becomes a very difficult to filter out the noise between a MA (master server) and SA (listening servers), if you have five servers, four being listening servers then by definition those servers will be getting traffic from clients (except for the master server if you have any sense), if the token switches that means that server will have to drop all client data and then dynamically reallocate the clients to the server that has passed on its token. If all five servers are sending and receiving traffic then the master effectively becomes swamped with clients at the same time as losing its token = chaos. TL;DR if they do use tiered servers with tokens and dynamically switching it will be very difficult to maintain consistency, if they don't then they will run into bandwidth issues anyway.
2) Why are they attempting to reinvent the wheel? There are already third party engine modules of CryEngine that handle this already in a pre-built form? This means a lot of time has been used for something that has already existed off the shelf for ages, if it doesn't do what they want it to do they could very easily modify them, they're open source or licensed models provide the source.
3) This is adding another layer to their engine, at this point with so many layers how will they debug? They mentioned it in the video but now you run into the issue that the client (or one of the clients) may not necessarily know which server has the token (or if there are connectivity issues) in which case it becomes more difficult to troubleshoot and diagnose. This is not bad within itself if you have a custom toolset for debugging issues written for your platform, but again you're adding time creating one. Thus more code to maintain (refactor as CIG likes to say) from revision to revision of the custom written network stack as part of the custom written modules as part of their bespoke engine (Star Engine or Lumberyard with heavy customisation). More techdebt.
Yeah. It's all rubbish really.
Here is another good write-up (https://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3800238&userid=0&perpage=40&pagenumber=1293#post473465769) by Hav, over on SA.
Post by: dsmart on June 16, 2017, 05:37:03 PM
These are not new techniques, in fact I would say it's a little outdated given languages like Go handle this a lot better.
Stop spreading FUD. Clearly you know nothing about game development.
Quote
1) Taking into account tokens on AWS - depending on the size of their EC2 instances that it becomes a very difficult to filter out the noise between a MA (master server) and SA (listening servers), if you have five servers, four being listening servers then by definition those servers will be getting traffic from clients (except for the master server if you have any sense), if the token switches that means that server will have to drop all client data and then dynamically reallocate the clients to the server that has passed on its token. If all five servers are sending and receiving traffic then the master effectively becomes swamped with clients at the same time as losing its token = chaos. TL;DR if they do use tiered servers with tokens and dynamically switching it will be very difficult to maintain consistency, if they don't then they will run into bandwidth issues anyway.
Yeah but, assuming they know what they're doing, they may end up sticking a proxy server somewhere in the mix. When we built our WSG framework, these are some of the things we - like most devs building massive online games - had to take into consideration.
Quote
2) Why are they attempting to reinvent the wheel? There are already third party engine modules of CryEngine that handle this already in a pre-built form? This means a lot of time has been used for something that has already existed off the shelf for ages, if it doesn't do what they want it to do they could very easily modify them, they're open source or licensed models provide the source.
CryEngine doesn't provide adequate support for this; and is mostly entity based. The last time I checked, even the LY implementation didn't delve much farther down the rabbit hole. This is probably why they have to do this now; especially given that the game croberts is dreaming up, is simply not going to work with the baseline CE3/LY implementation.
Quote
3) This is adding another layer to their engine, at this point with so many layers how will they debug? They mentioned it in the video but now you run into the issue that the client (or one of the clients) may not necessarily know which server has the token (or if there are connectivity issues) in which case it becomes more difficult to troubleshoot and diagnose. This is not bad within itself if you have a custom toolset for debugging issues written for your platform, but again you're adding time creating one. Thus more code to maintain (refactor as CIG likes to say) from revision to revision of the custom written network stack as part of the custom written modules as part of their bespoke engine (Star Engine or Lumberyard with heavy customisation). More techdebt.
It's a lot worse than that because they're doing it - at this point - in development where they have a ton of things that would need to be changed. And those things are going to not only cause delays, but are going to break. In fact, this is why the 3.0 schedule keeps slipping, and this portion of the networking layer revision was completely removed from the schedule. They've bitten off more than they can chew, and I have every reason to believe that it's all R&D, and that at some point they're going to abandon it, and stick with what they have in place.
Post by: dsmart on June 16, 2017, 05:44:11 PM
The fact that the "aim date" still remains July 27, 2017, even as things are delayed, removed (TBD), means that they're probably going to ship 3.0 with some items removed, while pushing them either into 3.0x or 3.1 etc. It's like 2.0 all over again. Also, Gamescom 2017 is coming up in Aug, and CitizenCon 2017 is Oct 27th (https://robertsspaceindustries.com/comm-link/transmission/15961-CitizenCon-Tickets-Announcement). Both in Germany. So either way, there is going to be some version of a 3.0 build at one of these two events (fundraising!).
Star Citizen Schedule Analysis (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1u0o7rUOPwTXsiEdWC7Mkr20byGC3Eze4YVl5DwWftXc/edit#gid=1189005387)(spreadsheet)
Star Citizen Tracker (https://starcitizentracker.github.io/)
HIGHLIGHTS
Quote
Everything is fucked. And delayed. Again
Also, quick synopsis from Nicholas over at SA (https://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3800238&pagenumber=1294#post473473899)
Completed
- Rover
- "Reworked" Cutlass Black
- "Reworked" Devastator Shotgun "Some minor polish remains"
- "Reworked" Arrowhead Sniper rifle "Some minor polish remains"
- Mobiglass refactor
- Diffusion subset for 3.0
Delayed
- Derelict ships. this was marked feature complete but also delayed 2 weeks (ETA is 30th June)
- Items 2.0 ROVER AND DRAGONFLY IN SHIPS (ETA June 27th)
- Asteroid Physics (ETA June 23rd)
- Exposure Improvements (ETA June 30th)
- Solar System Service Shop (ETA June 23rd)
Other
- New Message Queue has "a number of issues noted" (no longer has an ETA)
- Repair - "Code Complete Bugfixing to follow as needed" (no longer has an ETA)
So...
- 4 reworks of things already finished, but still not actually completely "finished"
- a new golf cart marked complete even though you cant transport it or use it on a planet
- and whatever the fuck "diffusion subset" means.
- Actual gameplay features 0
Post by: dsmart on June 19, 2017, 10:12:53 AM
It seems like it was just yesterday when I was saying that they were never - ever - going to be able to build the world scope they promised. That aside from the fact that their tech requires them to build these moons/planets manually (no procedural tech to automate the process).
Now some hardcore backers who already know the original claim was bullshit to begin with, are saying that they knew it was bullshit, that they would be happy to get just some of them etc.
Oh how far we've come.
A company with over $151m can't build tools to create a procedurally generated world. Meanwhile, my Battlecruiser/Universal Combat, games built over three decades ago, as well as current games like Elite Dangerous, Infinity Battlescape, Dual Universe, all have that tech in some form or another.
It's amazing how far we've come from back in Aug 2016 when 3.0 was coming on or before Dec 19th. Now it's completely off the radar.
(http://i.imgur.com/e6UC0Ij.jpg)
Post by: Narrenbart on June 19, 2017, 10:51:40 AM
Quote from: CIG
64 Bit
Quote from: CIG
MMO with 1000s if not 100.000s clients
Failure before first line of code is written (except they are writing their own OSI modell with designated protocol)
nuff said
*drops mic*
Post by: dsmart on June 19, 2017, 12:13:39 PM
Quote from: CIG64 BitQuote from: CIGMMO with 1000s if not 100.000s clients
Failure before first line of code is written (except they are writing their own OSI modell with designated protocol)
nuff said
*drops mic*
Yeah, we called bullshit on that one right off the bat. They still can't get more than 8 clients in an instance before the server falls over. :laugh:
Post by: StanTheMan on June 19, 2017, 05:33:14 PM
https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/comments/6hzg2n/the_rest_of_the_star_citizen_universe_progress/
Does Chris traditionally do 4 shows or is this approach new for ShitizenCon this year ?
"Grab a ticket to ensure your seat at the show. The 650 tickets for Capitol Theater are €50 each and will go on sale with the following format:
Saturday 1st July 7PM CEST: 150 Tickets available to Concierge and Subscribers only.
Saturday 1st July 11PM CEST: 150 Tickets available to Concierge and Subscribers only.
Sunday 2nd July 7PM CEST: 150 Tickets, now available to all backers.
Sunday 2nd July 11PM CEST: The remaining 200 Tickets available to all backers."
Post by: GaryII on June 19, 2017, 11:30:37 PM
Yeah, we called bullshit on that one right off the bat. They still can't get more than 8 clients in an instance before the server falls over. :laugh:
Game runs bad even when its offline - this guy did interesting tests:
https://robertsspaceindustries.com/spectrum/community/SC/forum/3/thread/starcitizen-performance-cpu-scaling-in-hacked-offl
So basically engine just can not process all that "fidelity"...after 5 years...
6 ships in instance = 20-25 fps...
Post by: Darklegend1 on June 20, 2017, 04:09:05 AM
Yeah, we called bullshit on that one right off the bat. They still can't get more than 8 clients in an instance before the server falls over. :laugh:
Game runs bad even when its offline - this guy did interesting tests:
https://robertsspaceindustries.com/spectrum/community/SC/forum/3/thread/starcitizen-performance-cpu-scaling-in-hacked-offl
So basically engine just can not process all that "fidelity"...after 5 years...
6 ships in instance = 20-25 fps...
Lol i went through the link and i truly felt sorry for the blind fan boys.. The long promised delta patcher is also no where to be heard off and nobody even talks of it anymore now so i dont know what CIG will deliver if anything. To be honest i heard of delta patching from CIG only :vince: and never thought it was something that needed research for to be implemented but with cig its always reinventing the wheel. :laugh: :laugh:
Also does anyone knows which game has the record for most players in an instance and how much??
i recently saw wargamming new map where they are doing 30 vs 30 battle!!!! so 60 players
Post by: dsmart on June 20, 2017, 04:21:51 AM
Also does anyone knows which game has the record for most players in an instance and how much??
i recently saw wargamming new map where they are doing 30 vs 30 battle!!!! so 60 players
Planetside 2 holds the record.
Post by: Narrenbart on June 20, 2017, 05:07:42 AM
Quote from: SomeUserInTheForum
Once Star Citizen switches to Vulkan you will see an increase ...
I love this one :D Vulcan is a derivate of OpenGL. AFAIK Their current modell is DirectX (DX11).
If they change the render API they have to rework EVERY motherfuckingkiwibastard Shader / Graphic / Model because OpenGL handles them all a little bit differently.
Post by: GaryII on June 20, 2017, 05:08:27 AM
Lol i went through the link and i truly felt sorry for the blind fan boys..
And after looking at those results, I am even more confident that they just can not build promised game, even single player SQ42 part...because engine just can not handle those over complicated ship designs..
All backers blame netcode for bad PU performance in SC forums, but looks like even engine in offline mode can not handle all those ships...
Post by: StanTheMan on June 20, 2017, 05:37:32 AM
Lol i went through the link and i truly felt sorry for the blind fan boys..
And after looking at those results, I am even more confident that they just can not build promised game, even single player SQ42 part...because engine just can not handle those over complicated ship designs..
All backers blame netcode for bad PU performance in SC forums, but looks like even engine in offline mode can not handle all those ships...
Is there a T-shirt out there with
"It's only Alpha!" on it ?
Get some designed I would buy and wear one...
Post by: dsmart on June 20, 2017, 08:39:30 AM
Quote from: SomeUserInTheForumOnce Star Citizen switches to Vulkan you will see an increase ...
I love this one :D Vulcan is a derivate of OpenGL. AFAIK Their current modell is DirectX (DX11).
If they change the render API they have to rework EVERY motherfuckingkiwibastard Shader / Graphic / Model because OpenGL handles them all a little bit differently.
Well, we can write that one off because LumberYard doesn't currently have any plans for Vulcan support.
Post by: dsmart on June 20, 2017, 08:42:31 AM
And after looking at those results, I am even more confident that they just can not build promised game, even single player SQ42 part...because engine just can not handle those over complicated ship designs..
All backers blame netcode for bad PU performance in SC forums, but looks like even engine in offline mode can not handle all those ships...
That's correct. The "fidelity" factor is what they used to gain all this interest, support, money. They completely forgot that the engine they were using to build the game, wouldn't even be able to support it.
This is probably why they are coming out with moons and planetoids in 3.0, instead of the procgen planets they promised and showed back in 2016.
But 3.0 is on the way. The Evocati "aim" date, as per last week's schedule update (https://robertsspaceindustries.com/schedule-report), is 06-21-17 to 07-05-17. We know that's probably not going to happen. And when it eventually drops, we'll see what the performance is like.
Post by: mixalot on June 21, 2017, 01:47:39 PM
It's only a matter of time before the most hardcore backers start to see what's going on. The general gaming community already has enough sense to stay away from this project until the game has been proven to be viable.
Post by: StanTheMan on June 22, 2017, 08:00:29 AM
I think they'll keep releasing patches and new versions of the game, but they won't be anywhere near what was promised. Half of the features that they promise for each patch (to generate hype and get more money) won't be in the patches and will instead be pushed back/delayed by years. Eventually CIG won't be able to keep up with the promises-to-backlog ratio and it will all collapse.
It's only a matter of time before the most hardcore backers start to see what's going on. The general gaming community already has enough sense to stay away from this project until the game has been proven to be viable.
When opinion turns against you it turns against you big time.
The mainstream press are sitting back waiting for something to swing the pendulum one way or another and they are already couching their bets so as to not lose face.
if 3.0 is poorly received and lacking any real progress I doubt they will be too kind unless backers are flooding the servers and singing its praises. Which doesn't seem likely to happen. Add another annual sale season into the mix with a poorly received 3.0 and the time could be run down pretty quickly.
There wont be more patches beyond stuff designed to keep the ship from going down as quickly as at otherwise would.
As people have said ... no White Knight is going to be on the horizon for SC with all the presales and engineering debt.
What will be interesting is whether or not CIG delay 3.0 until AFTER the annual big sales (or some version of that with a 3.1-4.0 etc offered as coming very soon to fix the short comings of a earlier than then paired down 3.0 release)
That has worked before and it could work again ....
CIG claim technical/ staff issues that prevented 3.0 being what they wanted and suggest the fixes are imminent. They get another stack of cash in ShitizenCon etc and off we go for another 12 months...albeit with more refunds and complaints.
Post by: dsmart on June 22, 2017, 01:03:14 PM
2.7 is now called 3.0 and will have this in it (https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/comments/4ykxlp/27_is_now_called_30_and_will_have_this_in_it/)
Post by: dsmart on June 22, 2017, 01:10:37 PM
Post by: Narrenbart on June 22, 2017, 01:50:11 PM
CIG decided to start scheduled 06/23 concept sale (https://robertsspaceindustries.com/pledge/Standalone-Ships/Aopoa-Nox-LTI-Warbond) ($45!) today. No doubt in response to my earlier tweets about tomorrow's 3.0 schedule.Small ugly racer after they dropped the CCU stuff ... guess this will be another 50k like fathers day .... and many hours more engineering debt
Post by: dsmart on June 22, 2017, 05:13:41 PM
Post by: dsmart on June 22, 2017, 06:02:27 PM
It's hilarious that they are showing a tool - outside of the CryEditor that's basically barebones for entity placement. So they've moved away from the procedural worlds now and shown that they have to build the entire game world - by hand. In an editor. Q.E.D.
Post by: StanTheMan on June 23, 2017, 07:20:55 AM
So in today's AtV where they were flogging the latest concept ship/bike, they also had a segment (FF to 26:46) about SolEd. Their solar system editor.
It's hilarious that they are showing a tool - outside of the CryEditor that's basically barebones for entity placement. So they've moved away from the procedural worlds now and shown that they have to build the entire game world - by hand. In an editor. Q.E.D.
They use the word "tool" a lot and then there is the mention of the "heavy internal push at 28.40.
Now we are getting to the truth.
Post by: Narrenbart on June 23, 2017, 07:52:36 AM
https://www.assetstore.unity3d.com/en/#!/content/42607
Post by: dsmart on June 23, 2017, 10:35:45 AM
(http://i.imgur.com/ZDFDbpn.jpg)
All Aspect Warfare, circa 2009 (!)
(http://www.3000ad.com/pics/aaw/08-11-06/pic047.jpg)
Post by: dsmart on June 29, 2017, 02:23:42 PM
Post by: StanTheMan on June 29, 2017, 03:40:17 PM
This video is great because it captures exactly what free eyes see and experience when they try the game.
He got a little bit 14 year old girl seeing a penis giddy at one point - but very good otherwise.
Post by: Motto on June 30, 2017, 05:40:35 AM
"Remember people, never invest more then you're willing to loose. This is doublely true with Star Citizen. It's not a complete product. It's not even a beta. It's an early technical alpha that has great potential to be one of best space games of our time. Or, the most funded failure of all time in video games."
Now we just have to wait the next few months to see his last prediction turning into the correct one.
Post by: StanTheMan on June 30, 2017, 09:35:17 AM
I don't waste my time with watching these kind of videos completely. His final conclusion segment starts at 28:00 and isn't bad. He captures the current state of SC right on the nose:
"Remember people, never invest more then you're willing to loose. This is doublely true with Star Citizen. It's not a complete product. It's not even a beta. It's an early technical alpha that has great potential to be one of best space games of our time. Or, the most funded failure of all time in video games."
Now we just have to wait the next few months to see his last prediction turning into the correct one.
His analysis is fundamentally flawed and at odds with what he has done.
I dont know the guy buy he clearly has some intelligent points to make about the game and gamers.
What he seems to be missing is a financial or business understanding of where this is likely headed which is understandable because it is difficult to be expert in all the disciplines required to analyse a project like this.
There is also the fact that his own actions dont really add credence to his position. He says he has resisted looking at SC all this time despite lots of requests to do so, now he has, he has spent some cash. Yet he says others should only risk what they are prepared to lose. The point is any sensible analysis would show people tending to get more and more invested to a point where it would be unreasonable to conclude backers could really "afford" to lose.
Yet the project is likely to fail....on the balance of probabilities it is silly to spend money on it at this point in time.
Do as I say not as I do..
Post by: dsmart on June 30, 2017, 09:46:54 AM
His analysis is fundamentally flawed and at odds with what he has done.
I dont know the guy buy he clearly has some intelligent points to make about the game and gamers.
What he seems to be missing is a financial or business understanding of where this is likely headed which is understandable because it is difficult to be expert in all the disciplines required to analyse a project like this.
There is also the fact that his own actions dont really add credence to his position. He says he has resisted looking at SC all this time despite lots of requests to do so, now he has, he has spent some cash. Yet he says others should only risk what they are prepared to lose. The point is any sensible analysis would show people tending to get more and more invested to a point where it would be unreasonable to conclude backers could really "afford" to lose.
Yet the project is likely to fail....on the balance of probabilities it is silly to spend money on it at this point in time.
Do as I say not as I do..
I agree with all of this, and those echo my own thoughts exactly.
Post by: Motto on June 30, 2017, 10:54:14 AM
Post by: dsmart on June 30, 2017, 03:28:17 PM
Sources were right when I reported they were going to try and push this out in time of GamesCom (Aug 22), one of their biggest fundraising drives.
Notice how ships (the primary money driver) tend to be on schedule. Gee, I wonder why that is happening.
https://robertsspaceindustries.com/schedule-report
DIFF: https://www.diffchecker.com/dx95qRIX
(https://robertsspaceindustries.com/media/rzz6h0fq38y3xr/source/Aims-6-30_11-29-6.png)
Notice how NONE of the material elements of this patch are completed? And this was due out 7 MONTHS ago back when croberts said Dec 19th, 2016.
8 items "completed"
20 delayed
COMPLETED
Quote
INHABITED DERELICT SHIP SITES
PICK UP & CARRY
INSURANCE (Code Complete. Now supporting bugfixing)
CARGO (Code Complete. Now supporting bugfixing.)
KIOSK SUPPORT (Code Complete. Now supporting bugfixing.)
ENGINE TRAILS & CONTRAILS
ASTEROID PHYSICS ( * Feature Complete)
SOLAR SYSTEM MISSION SERVICE V1 “MISSION BROKER”
DELAYED
Quote
MISSION GIVERS
Eckhart has been implemented in Subsumption, now just need to polish and iron out the kinks. The team will now start setting up Ruto with the goal that both Mission Givers will be fully setup by the end of the next sprint.
ETA is 14th July (was 30th June)
DELAMAR / LEVSKI
Due to the time required for the correct implementation of the elevators and their local physics grids this date has moved back slightly
ETA is 7th July (was 30th June)
ITEM 2.0 SHIP CONVERSION – PART 2
Due to issues with the last remaining ships we want to make sure all are fixed before implementation.
ETA is 3rd July (was 30th June)
DOORS AND AIRLOCKS
During an internal milestone review that we had this week, we identified further elements of work and polish that we will aim to have completed for next week’s milestone review.
ETA is 5th July (was 30th June)
ROVER AND DRAGONFLY IN SHIPS
The conversion to the Item 2.0 ships and how they work has introduced unforeseen issues with their physics. This will require a combination of Tech Design and Physics code to address the situation. This is proving to be a more in-depth problem than initially anticipated and the code team was pulled to help support elevators and general physics crashes which we necessary for internal review.
ETA is 12th July (was 27th June)
HINT SYSTEM
A few of the required engineering tasks were slightly delayed in their completion this week due to bugfixing being required on other systems.
ETA is 12th July (was 27th June)
ENTITY UPDATE COMPONENT SCHEDULER
Good progress has been made on this feature for 3.0.0, however an issue was discovered that severely affected ships. The LA Engineering team is currently busy supporting the item 2.0 ship conversion and the UI team with the implementation of their features, their support is required for this particular bug so we had to wait until they were available, resulting in a delay.
ETA is 7th July (was 30th June)
ENTITY OWNER MANAGER
Work on this feature was paused in order to support various bugs and feature polish for this week’s milestone review.
ETA is 7th June (was 28th June)
ITEM 2.0 MULTI FUNCTION DISPLAYS
Completion of this task was delayed due to support teams being focused on internal milestone demo review.
ETA is 7th July (was 29th June)
CHARACTER CUSTOMIZATION
Delayed due to team’s focus on priority tasks for internal milestone review.
ETA is 25th July (was 17 July)
PERSONAL MANAGER APP
Work on this task has been postponed so team can focus on resolving other systems.
ETA is 3rd July (was 27th June)
CARGO MANIFEST APP
Delayed due to team’s focus on priority tasks for internal milestone review.
ETA is 7th July (was 3rd July)
VEHICLE CUSTOMIZER APP
Delayed due to team’s focus on priority tasks for internal milestone review, specifically the Hint System.
ETA is 13th July (was 6th July) ETA is 27th July (was 13th July)
SHIP SELECTOR APP & INSURANCE CLAIM
Delayed due to team’s focus polishing the mission manager.
ETA is 19th July (was 5th July)
INVENTORY SYSTEM
ETA is 7th July (was 3rd July)
STARMAP APP
UI will break down feedback from internal milestone review and begin to address issues that came up.
ETA is 7th July (was 29th June)
COMMS SYSTEM UI
Delayed due to team’s focus on priority tasks for internal milestone review.
ETA is 18th July (was 10th July)
MISSION SYSTEM
Some bugs are blocking completion of the mission system which the AI team requires support from the LA Engineering department to resolve. However, LA Engineering are currently closing out their remaining tasks for milestone reviews before they are able to provide support for this.
ETA is 19th July (was 30th June)
RENDER TO TEXTURE
Various other requirements for this system have been discovered in the course of development that were not originally apparent, but are required for building a robust and scalable system for the future.
New ETA is currently being scoped out based on our internal review findings
PHYSICS SERIALIZATION
All work for this feature is currently undergoing a thorough code review between some of the Lead Engineers due to the complexity of the work. So far the review is going well, but is probably not going to be complete until early next week.
ETA is 3rd July (was 30th June)
See LINE 288 of the Diff. Remember back when I reported that the internal milestone schedule wasn't the same as the public one?
Also, this cracks me up:
LAST WEEK:
Quote
Delayed due to unforeseen shortage in resources.
ETA is 17th July (was 21st June)
THIS WEEK
Quote
Delayed due to team’s focus on priority tasks for internal milestone review.
ETA is 25th July (was 17 July)
Post by: Motto on June 30, 2017, 03:47:39 PM
Seems to me that on Citizencon, RSI/CIG needs to raise at least enough money to make the required payback, even better would be the whole loan sum and the best would be to even top that and make enough money to make it until the tax rebate. Since this is not very likely, I really would like to know how Citizencon goes and how that effects everything. A bad Citizencon probably means Game Over I think. I doubt there are lots of people left who still will fall for everything CIG puts out there. They've been tricked enough now and the latest events with the loan etc. are now effecting even some of the most hardcore backers. It's killing me by now :supaburn:
Post by: StanTheMan on July 01, 2017, 02:00:10 AM
So, they ran out of money to make it until their Citizencon and had no option to get a(nother) normal loan. So they took extreme measures by securing a new loan that is covered by a tax rebate. They either wanted a loan as big as the tax rebate, a loan larger than the tax rebate or the bank saw troubles no matter what (or quite possible, all three reasons apply) and so the bank decided to ask for *everything* as a collateral. Just 2B on the safe side.
Seems to me that on Citizencon, RSI/CIG needs to raise at least enough money to make the required payback, even better would be the whole loan sum and the best would be to even top that and make enough money to make it until the tax rebate. Since this is not very likely, I really would like to know how Citizencon goes and how that effects everything. A bad Citizencon probably means Game Over I think. I doubt there are lots of people left who still will fall for everything CIG puts out there. They've been tricked enough now and the latest events with the loan etc. are now effecting even some of the most hardcore backers. It's killing me by now :supaburn:
I think that by the end of this year they need to make enough $ to cover their operating costs for another 12 months.
They will be hoping that whatever they release or promise to release will generate enough sales.
As someone else has mentioned, moons might mean selling ground installations for Backers. I am no expert but I would have thought you could knock them up fairly cheaply and quickly.
Don't underestimate the power of the sunk cost fallacy. Any whiff of progress and plenty of the Backers lap it up and off they go for another 6 months.
The writing is on the wall but they could slip in (documentation) that whatever they release is the MVP (hoping Backers don't notice much) and carry on till the ship goes down.
If they don't make enough by the end of 2017 they will be left with trying to limp their way to next years major funding rounds or doing even more drastic public stuff - selling more JPEGS and eventually asking for Backer help to save the project.
Post by: Darklegend1 on July 01, 2017, 07:49:30 AM
So, they ran out of money to make it until their Citizencon and had no option to get a(nother) normal loan. So they took extreme measures by securing a new loan that is covered by a tax rebate. They either wanted a loan as big as the tax rebate, a loan larger than the tax rebate or the bank saw troubles no matter what (or quite possible, all three reasons apply) and so the bank decided to ask for *everything* as a collateral. Just 2B on the safe side.
Seems to me that on Citizencon, RSI/CIG needs to raise at least enough money to make the required payback, even better would be the whole loan sum and the best would be to even top that and make enough money to make it until the tax rebate. Since this is not very likely, I really would like to know how Citizencon goes and how that effects everything. A bad Citizencon probably means Game Over I think. I doubt there are lots of people left who still will fall for everything CIG puts out there. They've been tricked enough now and the latest events with the loan etc. are now effecting even some of the most hardcore backers. It's killing me by now :supaburn:
I think that by the end of this year they need to make enough $ to cover their operating costs for another 12 months.
They will be hoping that whatever they release or promise to release will generate enough sales.
As someone else has mentioned, moons might mean selling ground installations for Backers. I am no expert but I would have thought you could knock them up fairly cheaply and quickly.
Don't underestimate the power of the sunk cost fallacy. Any whiff of progress and plenty of the Backers lap it up and off they go for another 6 months.
The writing is on the wall but they could slip in (documentation) that whatever they release is the MVP (hoping Backers don't notice much) and carry on till the ship goes down.
If they don't make enough by the end of 2017 they will be left with trying to limp their way to next years major funding rounds or doing even more drastic public stuff - selling more JPEGS and eventually asking for Backer help to save the project.
By the look of Sandi's cleavage which she is showing more and more each ATV seems to indicate they are desperate.... :laugh: :laugh:
I will not underestimate the power of moron backer's wallets, whatever they release as 3.0 is guaranteed to bring great funding. its 2016 all over, same deceit but trust me it will work like a charm. chris will come on stage and wave his hands show some ppt to blind moron backers and they will be fooled. they spend thousands to attend citizenconn, dont u think they will give much more to keep the taps running..
Post by: dsmart on July 02, 2017, 05:20:09 AM
I think that by the end of this year they need to make enough $ to cover their operating costs for another 12 months.
How so? Please explain that math to me.
They are averaging about $36m a year. And by the SQ42 financials for 2016, they spending about $2m a month means that worldwide, they have to be burning through $3m.
So it is now Q3/17, and even if they made the same amount as last year, how does that carry them another 12 months, if their spending rate remains constant?
Also, from the funding spreadsheet (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1tMAP0fg-AKScI3S3VjrDW3OaLO4zgBA1RSYoQOQoNSI), new citizen count is way down.
1H2014: $11,838,147 pledged and 145,210 new Citizens (2014: $32,933,205 and 361,200)
1H2015: $16,055,646 pledged and 210,197 new Citizens (2015: $35,961,202 and 433,453)
1H2016: $12,400,064 pledged and 264,240 new Citizens (2016: $36,100,538 and 565,120)
1H2017: $12,669,915 pledged and 129,036 new Citizens
Post by: dsmart on July 03, 2017, 11:25:14 AM
Post by: dsmart on July 05, 2017, 04:33:46 AM
- Chris Roberts, 10 for the chairman E62. 08/03/2015
ps: Start at 07:52
Post by: dsmart on July 05, 2017, 04:45:14 AM
Everyone's gone to the Rapture because they're still waiting for the 3.0 Jesus Patch.
Post by: Mehlan on July 05, 2017, 09:27:34 PM
This after claiming it was 'greybox or better' and that all 'assets' for SQ42 would be 'complete by the end of 2016'...
Post by: dsmart on July 06, 2017, 01:22:22 PM
Post by: Ghostmaker on July 07, 2017, 08:37:48 AM
I mean, there's a limited number of outcomes here:
1) Everything releases and it's glorious, a game that sets the standard for the next ten years. (probability: :smuggo: Can't go below zero percent, man)
2) SC releases, but the associated other component games -- Star Marine, SQ42 -- are delayed. (probability: Extremely doubtful. Don't bet the rent money)
3) MVP release of all components. Somehow holds together. (probability: Possible, but unlikely as hell)
4) MVP release of SC only, SQ42 and SM are vaporware. (probability: Better than #3, and in my opinion, best possible scenario at this point for CR.)
5) Total collapse, a la so many other big dreams. (probability: #crocodiledundee. 'Better than average'.)
6) Total collapse and legal actions filed. (probability: less than #5 but still in the cards)
If SC releases per outcomes 1 or 2, the only real losers are the folks who've been hammering the game verbally. I expect we'll all eat a big plate of crow, with ketchup. However, I just don't see that happening.
The other outcomes are varying levels of suck for CR and CIG, regardless. Releasing a game in a state closer to, say, Big Rigs: Over The Mountain Racing than Fallout 4 is not going to do their bottom line a lick of good. And you have to have income to fund continuing development, patches, DLC, etc. So outcomes 3 and 4 are, to quote Darkest Dungeon, 'the slow death, unforeseen, unforgiving'.
Outcomes 5 and 6 should end CR's career. It would be an implosion that should make the Daikatana and Duke Nukem Forever debacles look tame in comparison. Any studio that hired him or his buddies on should have their heads checked for injuries.
Post by: dsmart on July 07, 2017, 01:16:20 PM
Post by: dsmart on July 07, 2017, 01:45:19 PM
(https://s15.postimg.org/hchy7cl4b/recycled_footage.gif)
Post by: dsmart on July 07, 2017, 02:57:30 PM
http://youtubedoubler.com/?video1=QPC3ybZoWyQ&start1=55&video2=0jE7UhIyRnA&start2=0 (http://youtubedoubler.com/?video1=QPC3ybZoWyQ&start1=55&video2=0jE7UhIyRnA&start2=0)
LOL!!
Post by: Flashwit on July 07, 2017, 04:28:06 PM
Post by: dsmart on July 07, 2017, 05:58:24 PM
https://twitter.com/dsmart/status/883484558620073984
https://twitter.com/dsmart/status/883474691889016832
Post by: dsmart on July 07, 2017, 06:44:39 PM
07/07/17 Schedule Report (https://robertsspaceindustries.com/schedule-report)
06/30/17 - 07/07/17 Diff (http://www.mergely.com/l7XQUDfW/?wl=1)
COMPLETED
Quote
SURFACE OUTPOSTS LIGHTING
ITEM 2.0 SHIP CONVERSION – PART 2 (Feature Complete. Bug fixing in progress.)
DOORS & AIRLOCKS (Feature Complete for 3.0.0. Bugfixing in progress.*)
HINT SYSTEM (Feature Complete for 3.0.0. Bugfixing & polish in progress.)
PHYSICS SERIALIZATION (Code Complete. Bug fixing in progress.)
DELAYED
Quote
DELAMAR / LEVSKI (STRETCH GOAL)
We are adding the planet Delamar and the landing zone, Levski
There are currently issues with the room system markup that need to be revisited by the Design team to be fixed.
ETA is 14th July (was 7th July)
INVENTORY SYSTEM SUPPORT
The inventory will offer a way to manage the cargo and commodities that are being carried by the ships a player owns.
Date will remain connected to the UI team’s progress on the inventory.
ETA is 14th July (was 3rd July)
ENTITY UPDATE COMPONENT SCHEDULER
The LA Engineering team is currently busy supporting the item 2.0 ship conversion and the UI team with the implementation of their features, their support is required for this particular bug so we had to wait until they were available, resulting in a delay.
ETA is 14th July (was 7th July)
ENTITY OWNER MANAGER
LA Engineering has identified additional tasks needed to support persistence and netcode.
ETA is 14th July (was 7th July)
ITEM 2.0 MULTI FUNCTION DISPLAYS
The code side of this is now complete and is now down to UI Art to implement.
ETA is 11th July (was 7th July)
PERSONAL MANAGER APP
Further polish work is needed to implement a profile selection and create a pop-up to select between loadout slots, but requires a little more time to complete.
ETA is 10th July (was 3rd July)
CARGO MANIFEST APP
Delayed due to team’s focus on priority tasks for internal milestone review.
ETA is 14th July (was 7th July)
INVENTORY SYSTEM
Delayed due to team focusing on this week’s milestone review.
ETA is 14th July (was 7th July)
STARMAP APP
The UI team have now broken down the feedback from last week’s review and adjusted their estimate.
ETA is 18th July (was 7th July)
COMMS SYSTEM UI
Delayed due to knock-on effect of the delay to the inventory system work.
ETA is 25th July (was 18th July)
RENDER TO TEXTURE
Additional requirements were discovered in development that were not originally apparent, but are required for building a robust and scale-able system for the future.
ETA is 27th July
PENDING
Quote
- MISSION GIVERS
- DELAMAR / LEVSKI (STRETCH GOAL)
- INVENTORY SYSTEM SUPPORT
- ROVER AND DRAGONFLY IN SHIPS
- ENTITY UPDATE COMPONENT SCHEDULER
- ENTITY OWNER MANAGER
- ITEM 2.0 MULTI FUNCTION DISPLAYS
- CHARACTER CUSTOMIZATION
- PERSONAL MANAGER APP
- CARGO MANIFEST APP
- VEHICLE CUSTOMIZER APP
- SHIP SELECTOR APP & INSURANCE CLAIM
- INVENTORY SYSTEM
- STARMAP APP
- COMMS SYSTEM UI
- MISSION SYSTEM
- RENDER TO TEXTURE
- VOLUMETRIC FOG (still schedule to be completed on June 9th)
- APOCALYPSE ARMS SCOURGE RAIL GUN (still schedule to be completed on June 9th)
MARKED AS COMPLETED BUT UNDERGOING "BUG FIXES" AND "POLISHING"
Quote
- INSURANCE
- DOORS & AIRLOCKS
- CARGO
- KIOSK SUPPORT
- REPAIR
- HINT SYSTEM
- MISSION MANAGER APP
- PHYSICS SERIALIZATION
- ITEM 2.0 SHIP CONVERSION – PART 2
- ARROWHEAD SNIPER RIFLE
- KSAR DEVASTATOR-12 SHOTGUN
Courtesy of Nicholas over on SA (https://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3800238&userid=0&perpage=40&pagenumber=1435#post474147790)
Post by: dsmart on July 08, 2017, 12:36:57 PM
More talk about it possibly ending up being #justanotherlevel via a menu option.
Claim that if they were to release 3.0 within the "next 90 days", that it would be an unmitigated disaster.
I hope they release it - at least to Evocati (so I can get my hands on it).
CryEngine is legendary for its performance issues in pure fps games. We've seen in the 2.6.x builds just how horrendous it can be with all these fidelitious models in it. Now go and add million plus polygonal planets.
But croberts is arrogant enough to release 3.0, regardless of performance issues, then advocate to backers that they should upgrade their machines to run it. Most of them probably will. The rest will put in for a refund.
And it doesn't matter what state the deliverables are in, they're just going off a checklist now in order to not run afoul of liability issues. As long as they deliver an item promised, regardless of state or condition, they're covered. That's why Hangar, Arena Commander, Star Marine (LOL!!) and similar, aren't getting frequent updates. In fact, the last 2.6.3 build was back on April 7th.
Post by: Narrenbart on July 08, 2017, 01:10:25 PM
Once again, sources are telling me that the performance issues seen in the AtV video, are thus far insurmountable, and that they don't know how this 3.0 patch is ever getting released without that being addressed.Now just imagine those planet meshes have to rotate (on Pi) and orbit (also on Pi) while calculating 64Bit coordinates (position, rotation) for every entity on the panet ... and now share this over the network through UDP ... (little hint it will lag, rubberband and jerk all over the place even if the whole architecture is a gigabit LAN)
More talk about it possibly ending up being #justanotherlevel via a menu option.
Claim that if they were to release 3.0 within the "next 90 days", that it would be an unmitigated disaster.
I hope they release it - at least to Evocati (so I can get my hands on it).
CryEngine is legendary for its performance issues in pure fps games. We've seen in the 2.6.x builds just how horrendous it can be with all these fidelitious models in it. Now go and add million plus polygonal planets.
But croberts is arrogant enough to release 3.0, regardless of performance issues, then advocate to backers that they should upgrade their machines to run it. Most of them probably will. The rest will put in for a refund.
Post by: Ghostmaker on July 08, 2017, 01:22:47 PM
Assuming the code compiles, you're gonna need two of those just to run the blasted thing.
Post by: Lir on July 08, 2017, 03:03:35 PM
Most of them probably will. The rest will put in for a refund.
Hello Derek;
While I agree with you I still wonder how many real physical backers there are left beside the disabled brains obeyfirst-ish and alike :shrug:
Also please whoever FED agent reading this, put SG and OF into jail where they belong please. In my opinion, not Derek's for the retards (shitizens) there that don't make any difference. Geez do I have to write this.
Post by: StanTheMan on July 08, 2017, 07:22:37 PM
I am beginning to think that there will be no 3.0 until after both conferences and we might see something purporting to be 3.0 by Q2 2018 (if they milk enough in JPEG sales on the back of some ropey stitched together bullshit presentation and lies from CRoberts about needing more time to get it right)
Post by: dsmart on July 09, 2017, 05:49:41 AM
Once again, sources are telling me that the performance issues seen in the AtV video, are thus far insurmountable, and that they don't know how this 3.0 patch is ever getting released without that being addressed.Now just imagine those planet meshes have to rotate (on Pi) and orbit (also on Pi) while calculating 64Bit coordinates (position, rotation) for every entity on the panet ... and now share this over the network through UDP ... (little hint it will lag, rubberband and jerk all over the place even if the whole architecture is a gigabit LAN)
More talk about it possibly ending up being #justanotherlevel via a menu option.
Claim that if they were to release 3.0 within the "next 90 days", that it would be an unmitigated disaster.
I hope they release it - at least to Evocati (so I can get my hands on it).
CryEngine is legendary for its performance issues in pure fps games. We've seen in the 2.6.x builds just how horrendous it can be with all these fidelitious models in it. Now go and add million plus polygonal planets.
But croberts is arrogant enough to release 3.0, regardless of performance issues, then advocate to backers that they should upgrade their machines to run it. Most of them probably will. The rest will put in for a refund.
I don't believe they're rotating. They're static spheres. Heck, they can't get the ring on Port Olisar to work right, and they're going to rotate a planet? LOL!! :laugh:
Most of them probably will. The rest will put in for a refund.
Hello Derek;
While I agree with you I still wonder how many real physical backers there are left beside the disabled brains obeyfirst-ish and alike :shrug:
Also please whoever FED agent reading this, put SG and OF into jail where they belong please. In my opinion, not Derek's for the retards (shitizens) there that don't make any difference. Geez do I have to write this.
According to the data for the recent sales, even though we know that the funding chart is inaccurate, there aren't that many left. This is why they're not making enough money, and now have to continue taking out loans.
Oh, we already burned (got them banned) several Reddit accounts, including obey-the-fist. By the time this is all over, they're all likely to be banned. Especially if they are still around when the final collapse comes. Those guys can't help themselves; so it's only a matter of time before they step off a cliff, and get their accounts burned.
Post by: dsmart on July 09, 2017, 06:00:28 AM
With all this data I think we can all work out a few similar ways the conference scam season is going to go this year.
I am beginning to think that there will be no 3.0 until after both conferences and we might see something purporting to be 3.0 by Q2 2018 (if they milk enough in JPEG sales on the back of some ropey stitched together bullshit presentation and lies from CRoberts about needing more time to get it right)
No way they stretch it that long. No way in hell. It's a huge risk and the whole thing will collapse. They've already squandered all backer good will.
I think that if 3.0 isn't ready, that they will release something to Evocati either before or during GamesCom (Aug 22-26), ignore the performance issues etc - just so they can keep the hype going for a bit long.
Post by: mixalot on July 09, 2017, 04:25:52 PM
https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/comments/6m3fmc/amid_the_recent_influx_of_idiocy_here_surrounding/ (https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/comments/6m3fmc/amid_the_recent_influx_of_idiocy_here_surrounding/)
https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/comments/6m6i6x/as_many_still_doesnt_seem_to_know_about_this_the/ (https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/comments/6m6i6x/as_many_still_doesnt_seem_to_know_about_this_the/)
I know I shouldn't be surprised anymore by this, but it's really some next level religious devotion on display.
Post by: dsmart on July 10, 2017, 05:40:58 AM
Post by: dsmart on July 10, 2017, 05:57:23 PM
Star Citizen - CitizenCon 2014 Persistent Universe Demo
Post by: dsmart on July 11, 2017, 07:39:50 AM
Original 2017 schedule
(http://i.imgur.com/LrWWjPp.jpg)
July 2017 schedule
(http://i.imgur.com/rz7X9m9.png)
Post by: Darklegend1 on July 14, 2017, 12:50:05 PM
but i recall chris saying that sq42 is all grey box or better so how does this add up.. :wtf:
are they preparing characters for part 2 and 3 of sq42 :laugh: :laugh:
Post by: StanTheMan on July 14, 2017, 03:20:23 PM
Saw today's ATV in that the guy said they are making characters to be used in SC as well as SQ42...
but i recall chris saying that sq42 is all grey box or better so how does this add up.. :wtf:
are they preparing characters for part 2 and 3 of sq42 :laugh: :laugh:
It is just one lie on top of another... :wtchris:
Post by: dsmart on July 14, 2017, 06:53:11 PM
At a glance, half the shit (render to texture, mission giver etc) is delayed, but the aim date of 08-25-17, somehow remains unchanged.
God damn LOL!!
Of course there is a new ship sale coming up on July 21st, along with GamesCom around the corner Aug 22-26, so they're not going to touch that schedule to update it with the real release date until the last minute. Like always.
Anyway....
Schedule: https://robertsspaceindustries.com/schedule-report
Diff: https://www.diffchecker.com/91Bl6TQY
Completed: 2
Delayed: 7
New Tasks / Refactoring: 3
Remaining: 21
Furthest ETA: Aug 10th
Quote
Completed
Personal Manager App
Klaus and Werner Arclight Pistol
Quote
Delayed
Inventory System Support
ETA is 20th July (was 14th July)
Entity Owner Manager
ETA is 20th July (was 14th July)
Item 2.0 Multi Function Displays
UI have been implementing these screens while supporting other features, so QA can test each area as soon as possible. While this benefits us from a testing point of view, it has resulted in an overall delay in completion.
ETA is 18th July (was 11th July)
Cargo Manifest App
ETA is 20th July (was 14th July)
Inventory System
Progress has been affected due to the work on the Search Feature.
ETA is 20th July (was 14th July)
Mission System
We are continuing to build on the mission system AI in order for design to implement more missions for inclusion in 3.0.0
ETA is 24th July (was 19th June)
Render to Texture
This system is still in progress, but due to its overall size and some of the other features for 3.0.0 that require Render to Texture, teams are using the system as soon as they are able, which means that Render to Texture is requiring bug fixing support while it’s being developed which results in further delays of the system as a whole. The date below does also take dedicated bug fixing time into account.
ETA is 10th August (was 27th July)
Quote
NEW TASKS
RSI Aurora
This is an updated version of the Aurora. We previously didn’t think that we would have the time to complete this rework for 3.0.0, however, with the movement of our release dates we are now able to include this rework with 3.0.0.
ETA is 21st July
Gemini L86 Pistol
Rework of the legacy weapon.
With the moving of our release date, this weapon rework has been signed off to be included for the 3.0.0 release.
ETA is 28th July
Behring P4-AR
Rework of the legacy weapon.
With the moving of our release date, this weapon rework has been signed off to be included for the 3.0.0 release.
ETA is 19th July
Quote
REMAINING
- MISSION GIVERS
- DELAMAR / LEVSKI (STRETCH GOAL)
- INVENTORY SYSTEM SUPPORT
- ROVER AND DRAGONFLY IN SHIPS
- ENTITY UPDATE COMPONENT SCHEDULER
- ENTITY OWNER MANAGER
- ITEM 2.0 MULTI FUNCTION DISPLAYS
- CHARACTER CUSTOMIZATION
- CARGO MANIFEST APP
- VEHICLE CUSTOMIZER APP
- SHIP SELECTOR APP & INSURANCE CLAIM
- INVENTORY SYSTEM
- STARMAP APP
- COMMS SYSTEM UI
- MISSION SYSTEM
- RENDER TO TEXTURE
- VOLUMETRIC FOG (still scheduled to be completed on June 9th)
- APOCALYPSE ARMS SCOURGE RAIL GUN (still scheduled to be completed on June 9th)
- RSI AURORA
- GEMINI L86 PISTOL
- BEHRING P4-AR
Quote
July 7th Schedule Report
Completed: 5
Delayed: 11
Remaining: 19
Quote
July 14th Schedule Report
Completed: 2
Delayed: 7
New Tasks / Refactoring: 3
Remaining: 21
Post by: David-2 on July 14, 2017, 08:14:05 PM
Render to Texture
This system is still in progress, but due to its overall size and some of the other features for 3.0.0 that require Render to Texture, teams are using the system as soon as they are able, which means that Render to Texture is requiring bug fixing support while it’s being developed which results in further delays of the system as a whole. The date below does also take dedicated bug fixing time into account.
ETA is 10th August (was 27th July)
How odd! Instead of this major feature coming in completely perfectly, the way CR expects it, it unaccountably has bugs, for which, of course, the necessary time to fix them wasn't planned for, because, as I said, it was expected to be perfect in every way. There's nothing to be done for it except push out the completion date for this item; completely unexpected delays in a single task are unfortunate, but will have no effect on the overall schedule because the team is just that good.
Post by: Serendipity on July 15, 2017, 04:24:38 AM
:lol: if so.
We'll hear the dreams shattering from here.
Post by: Meowz on July 15, 2017, 07:58:37 AM
Post by: dsmart on July 15, 2017, 09:59:27 AM
Title Summary (https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/comments/6nau6m/gamestar_titelstory_summary/)
The Technique Behind Star Citizen (https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/comments/6nc6j6/gamestar_the_technique_behind_star_citizen/)
So they're not promising 5-10 systems "at launch". So much for...
https://robertsspaceindustries.com/about-the-game/universe
(http://i.imgur.com/bPQp0zQ.png) (https://robertsspaceindustries.com/about-the-game/universe)
The project is FUBAR
Post by: Motto on July 15, 2017, 12:57:15 PM
A preview of an Alpha :lol:
Post by: helimoth on July 15, 2017, 01:42:37 PM
Gamestar visited Foundry 42 Frankfurt to play a preview of Alpha 3.0
A preview of an Alpha :lol:
... alphaception :vince:
Post by: dsmart on July 15, 2017, 05:16:38 PM
Gamestar visited Foundry 42 Frankfurt to play a preview of Alpha 3.0
A preview of an Alpha :lol:
Yeah, we're all laughing at that. :laugh: :lol:
Post by: StanTheMan on July 15, 2017, 06:10:32 PM
The Shitizens keep moving the goal posts wider and wider as the spec gets smaller and further away.
But more and more Backers are calling it for what it is.
Post by: Narrenbart on July 16, 2017, 11:21:11 PM
Insurance, a game mechanic that will lock you out of the game with the possibility of paying real $$$ to overcome this mechanic (this includes LTI).
I stopped counting the faults that are within this mechanic. How can any game developer think for a second that this is something you want to have in your game?
This is far more evil than everything that EA or Ubi could have ever thought of.
Sure I can play without a ship, I could go shopping or join a
You've died
- Please insert coin -
Post by: Serendipity on July 17, 2017, 03:39:50 AM
http://www.pcgames.de/Star-Citizen-Spiel-3481/News/Derek-Smart-Gamestar-Titelstory-Propaganda-Twitter-1233287/
To the war mobile!
Post by: dsmart on July 17, 2017, 05:01:50 AM
The Germans aren't happy with you Derek.
http://www.pcgames.de/Star-Citizen-Spiel-3481/News/Derek-Smart-Gamestar-Titelstory-Propaganda-Twitter-1233287/
To the war mobile!
Yeah, I know. :bahgawd:
Post by: Narrenbart on July 17, 2017, 05:18:31 AM
Wow, german magazine is directly attacking a private person in america for personal opinions on twitter ... btw this is sueable.The Germans aren't happy with you Derek.
http://www.pcgames.de/Star-Citizen-Spiel-3481/News/Derek-Smart-Gamestar-Titelstory-Propaganda-Twitter-1233287/
To the war mobile!
Yeah, I know. :bahgawd:
Post by: StanTheMan on July 17, 2017, 07:20:33 AM
Wow, german magazine is directly attacking a private person in america for personal opinions on twitter ... btw this is sueable.The Germans aren't happy with you Derek.
http://www.pcgames.de/Star-Citizen-Spiel-3481/News/Derek-Smart-Gamestar-Titelstory-Propaganda-Twitter-1233287/
To the war mobile!
Yeah, I know. :bahgawd:
And it must have taken him about 3 minutes to write it v the in depth analysis Derek does.
Post by: StanTheMan on July 17, 2017, 07:28:50 AM
https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/comments/6nnjau/thank_you_cig_for_insurance_makes_sense/
Insurance, a game mechanic that will lock you out of the game with the possibility of paying real $$$ to overcome this mechanic (this includes LTI).
I stopped counting the faults that are within this mechanic. How can any game developer think for a second that this is something you want to have in your game?
This is far more evil than everything that EA or Ubi could have ever thought of.
Sure I can play without a ship, I could go shopping or join acrewmopping division (and try to destroy the other players ship from the inside because I got bored while waiting). Or just pay the bill and get my ship back faster.
You've died
- Please insert coin -
And even the most basic forms of griefing can expose the bullshit expectations of backers and lack of knowledge CR has of MMOs etc and how a large percent of the playerbase play them.
I remember that crappy demo they did one conference where the Shitizens were ecstatic at seeing a ship land on a station and some supposed FPS SM gameplay.
Some of us pointed out the $250 Connie was ripe for stealing and it wouldnt have lasted 20 seconds on the deck, unlocked before someone knicked it and sold it on for real world $$$ or crashed it into someone else's ship and left them with the repair bill....
Scams and "greifing" or just Mercenary activities would get a lot more creative than this ruse that took 5 seconds to come up with.
Post by: Narrenbart on July 17, 2017, 07:41:58 AM
And don't forget the bugs :)https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/comments/6nnjau/thank_you_cig_for_insurance_makes_sense/
Insurance, a game mechanic that will lock you out of the game with the possibility of paying real $$$ to overcome this mechanic (this includes LTI).
I stopped counting the faults that are within this mechanic. How can any game developer think for a second that this is something you want to have in your game?
This is far more evil than everything that EA or Ubi could have ever thought of.
Sure I can play without a ship, I could go shopping or join acrewmopping division (and try to destroy the other players ship from the inside because I got bored while waiting). Or just pay the bill and get my ship back faster.
You've died
- Please insert coin -
And even the most basic forms of griefing can expose the bullshit expectations of backers and lack of knowledge CR has of MMOs etc and how a large percent of the playerbase play them.
I remember that crappy demo they did one conference where the Shitizens were ecstatic at seeing a ship land on a station and some supposed FPS SM gameplay.
Some of us pointed out the $250 Connie was ripe for stealing and it wouldnt have lasted 20 seconds on the deck, unlocked before someone knicked it and sold it on for real world $$$ or crashed it into someone else's ship and left them with the repair bill....
Scams and "greifing" or just Mercenary activities would get a lot more creative than this ruse that took 5 seconds to come up with.
Killed by a bug ... wait a week for replacement or 2 weeks for CS answer ... well or pay
WoW was a success because they got rid of all "McQuaid" stuff of EverQuest Live/2, like corpse runs, camping etc.
Now we have Star Citizen with a plethora of new ways to punish the player for playing the game.
(and 1000 ways to get griefed)
Post by: Serendipity on July 17, 2017, 08:13:17 AM
There's going to be a lot of media attention if they do. There's going to be more funding because of it. They're going to be given the license to carry on as they have been doing. No repercussions. No accountability. No reasons to change.
Is nobody going to try the law with this company? In fact didn't you start legal proceedings against CIG Derek? I seem to remember a tweet saying you had.
Post by: Flashwit on July 17, 2017, 08:54:53 AM
Post by: dsmart on July 17, 2017, 09:46:01 AM
So I'm going to assume 3.0 will drop in some form at some point. I'm also going to assume they will have seamless space to moon transitions and a few things to do whilst on the surfaces.
There's going to be a lot of media attention if they do. There's going to be more funding because of it. They're going to be given the license to carry on as they have been doing. No repercussions. No accountability. No reasons to change.
Not that simple. They've squandered away whatever backer cred they had. So it's going to be mostly the hardcore backers who are going to be left standing after 3.0 is out.
I have no reason to believe that 3.0 is going to change the game's perception because 2.0 (PU debut in Q4/2015) and 2.6 (Star Marine debut in Q4/2016) were the major highlights like the upcoming 3.0 which only has those moons/planetoids as the highlight. Player engagement on the game is non-existent if you go by the number of backer numbers and those actually playing the various modules.
Sure, they will make some money over 3.0, but they've made money in the past, blew through all of it, are in debt etc. So there is no reason to believe that 3.0 is going change any of that.
Quote
Is nobody going to try the law with this company? In fact didn't you start legal proceedings against CIG Derek? I seem to remember a tweet saying you had.
Only investors and backers have that power. I don't, as I don't have "standing" in any lawsuit against them. I do have a case for defamation against CIG and Chris Roberts, but I have no interest in pursuing that because it would be too distracting, and cost (my liability insurance won't cover it, unless they sue or counter-sue) too much by the time we get around to the Star Citizen part.
So all we can do now is just wait, watch, and laugh.
Post by: Motto on July 17, 2017, 09:58:35 AM
Post by: dsmart on July 17, 2017, 10:03:04 AM
I'm guessing the 3.0 will be another disappointment that will open a lot of backers' eyes. Most of them will (finally) see the replay of last year and will not invest any further. The funding collapses and that's teh end of CIG. Those too blind to see will not keep CIG afloat.
Hard to say. Some backers are like Deer caught in a car's headlights. 3.0 will drop, they will check it out for a few days, and move on to wait for 3.1 (netcode!).
The problem is, will 3.0 be enough to prevent a refund run on the bank? Right, they're using new money to refund old money. That's just not sustainable in the long term.
Post by: Serendipity on July 17, 2017, 03:23:26 PM
Only investors and backers have that power. I don't, as I don't have "standing" in any lawsuit against them. I do have a case for defamation against CIG and Chris Roberts, but I have no interest in pursuing that because it would be too distracting, and cost (my liability insurance won't cover it, unless they sue or counter-sue) too much by the time we get around to the Star Citizen part.
So all we can do now is just wait, watch, and laugh.
But not a single backer has tested their luck? None of the whales, of which surely some, have enough money to burn and have crossed their patience threshold? It seems strange. There is anger and disposable income, why no court? What would have to be proven from a case to achieve anything?
I seem to remember reading somewhere that for any relevant consumer case they'd have to prove that development on the game has stalled/stopped. If that is the case, it would be an interesting argument between videos and videos of apparent game development versus content sparse incremental updates for a long time.
It just seems very strange that it hasn't happened or is happening, not that we'd necessarily know about it I suppose.
Have you said you knew of cases ongoing against CIG then, if not actually made by by yourself? There's a definite memory of you asserting to such in some way in my mind. Maybe I'm wrong.
Post by: HycoCam on July 17, 2017, 04:28:53 PM
There needs to be a basis for a civil lawsuit--some kind of damages. If you are a backer and unhappy with CIG--CIG right now simply gives you back your money. Once CIG gives you back your money--there is no civil case. Now once CIG runs out of money and/or announces they have released a game and will no longer provide refunds--that is when we might start seeing civil cases.
Post by: StanTheMan on July 17, 2017, 04:55:00 PM
Star Citizen and SQ42 are just ideas and paying for JPEGS lets you pretend you are part of a new frontier in PC gaming and can talk about being in the club.
Post by: dsmart on July 17, 2017, 05:43:34 PM
What would be the reasoning for the lawsuit? CIG isn't using their employees like you want them too?
There needs to be a basis for a civil lawsuit--some kind of damages. If you are a backer and unhappy with CIG--CIG right now simply gives you back your money. Once CIG gives you back your money--there is no civil case. Now once CIG runs out of money and/or announces they have released a game and will no longer provide refunds--that is when we might start seeing civil cases.
That's correct. Any complaint that is filed, they can refund and end the case. HOWEVER, if the person wants to continue, they can insist that they were promised something in return (e.g. a game, financials etc) and they would be right. The question is, if after you got your money back, why would you want to waste money to continue the lawsuit.
And in all of that, it has to go through arbitration anyway. The only time this goes into open court, is via State of Fed action. Sure there is a way that a backer can get around the arbitration clause, but it's not easy.
The major problem is only going to come when they can no longer do refunds.
Post by: Narrenbart on July 17, 2017, 10:10:25 PM
Economy?
Players can't have any significant impact because the NPC system is a master in balancing the economy out - no matter what happens.
Griefing?
You will be unable to tell if the character is a player or a NPC so 90% of the time you'll be griefing NPCs! take this Goons!
Empty Space?
There will be so much NPC action and interaction that you have always something to do, basically the NPCs act like a player.
Multiplayer?
You can hire NPCs with their own personality they will act as a real person, they will betray, steal and climb out of cargo boxes.
Current active NPC count: 0 (soon to be 1)
... I wanna cry where is my comfort-me NPC ...
Epilogue
A few years ago I stopped reading the forums for a game in development when I found a thread that is just disillusional dreams.
In case of Star Citizen we used to read the stuff friday evenings for a laugh when we are getting drunk.
But now they reached a level where it physically hurts to read the stuff the backers are coming up in order to defend the project.
Post by: dsmart on July 18, 2017, 04:50:03 AM
Post by: Serendipity on July 18, 2017, 06:45:02 AM
"Built on AWS’s proven computing environment, Amazon GameLift lets you scale high-performance game servers up and down to meet player demand. You pay only for the capacity you use, so you can get started whether you’re working on a new game idea or running a game with millions of players."
"Q. Does Amazon GameLift work for latency-intolerant games, such as first-person shooters? Does Amazon GameLift add latency to my game?
Amazon GameLift is designed to work for latency-intolerant games. Amazon GameLift introduces no additional latency during gameplay."
https://aws.amazon.com/gamelift/faq/
CIG have been seen saying their technology is going to do things never been done before and that they can't go into specifics about how and what exactly they're doing. It's the make or break issue I feel. Content can be created. The laws of physics though...not so much.
It's crunch time for them. Survival on the line. 3.0 to 4.0. Over to you CIG, what you got?
Post by: Narrenbart on July 18, 2017, 07:17:18 AM
The AWS service CIG are using have an element called 'GameLift' that amazon say allows latency dependant games to work well for up to millions of players. Sounds good. I'm guessing the truth isn't so simple though?AWS used to be expensive and slow due to all the "beginner features" that are implemnted, maybe now its just expensive ...
"Built on AWS’s proven computing environment, Amazon GameLift lets you scale high-performance game servers up and down to meet player demand. You pay only for the capacity you use, so you can get started whether you’re working on a new game idea or running a game with millions of players."
"Q. Does Amazon GameLift work for latency-intolerant games, such as first-person shooters? Does Amazon GameLift add latency to my game?
Amazon GameLift is designed to work for latency-intolerant games. Amazon GameLift introduces no additional latency during gameplay."
https://aws.amazon.com/gamelift/faq/
CIG have been seen saying their technology is going to do things never been done before and that they can't go into specifics about how and what exactly they're doing. It's the make or break issue I feel. Content can be created. The laws of physics though...not so much.
It's crunch time for them. Survival on the line. 3.0 to 4.0. Over to you CIG, what you got?
There is a reason why MMO games are 1-2 graphic generations behind - Video Lag - If a player lags on the client side - UDP still has to guess (UDP is guessing all the time thats how it works) what the player wants.
This will lead into a shitfest of Char Hopping, T-Posing, Fall through World, Physic Errors and Rubberbanding if there are many players with ever varying client FPS and input lags.
For Explanation:
The Captain has a 6000$ StarCitizenPowerMachine that manges to run the client on 30FPS+, his poor crew is playing on max 15FPS. This results in Graphic Lags for the crew, the UDP has to guess every 2nd frame what the crewclient wants in relation to the captain in 6DOF and always remember ... the floor isn't a floor it's just a 2D collider mesh - an error rate of 1cm will cause very funny stuff.
Edit: And I am pretty sure Amazon is reffering to games where you walk around and shoot things not stuff like "And the Spaceship will detonate, all parts are exploding with physics calculations and needed to be spread over the network cause a part could hit another spaceship and damage it".
Edit Edit: including the mug that was resting on the pool table in 64bit coordinates...
Edit Edit Edit: in a game where you have hours of motion capture how to carry a box in 3 different ways which snaps to a grid when dropped ...
Post by: dsmart on July 18, 2017, 03:48:23 PM
(http://i.imgur.com/PozHdqL.png)
Post by: dsmart on July 19, 2017, 07:42:13 AM
Quote
The Titanic posted:
My thoughts on landing and day night cycles:
CIG can pull off a day night cycle currently as well as a planet rotating (not orbiting anywhere, just spinning in place) by not requiring the ship to actually land. Just get close to the planet and you auto-land in a loading cutscene.
They can also time the FPS sun to the orbit sun pretty easily. Of course they should also be able to have the ring on their space station rotate easily too, so there's a good chance they'll fuck this up if they try it.
But a loading zone, planet rotation that doesn't require actual reentry, and an FPS day and night cycle could be very doable for their 3.0 stuff.
- Planet rotating. They can't do it because due to how CryEngine works, they would have to make the sphere an entity object - with a collider - and animated. Have you see the Port Olisar rings?
Probability of them doing it: 0%
- Planet orbiting. They can't do it because that would mean moving the spherical entity through the world. Which means adding a physics body to it.
Probability of them doing it: 0%
- Day and night cycle. They can do it in the editor as they have shown, because they are manipulating the light source manually. Doing that dynamically in the client is completely different ball game.
It's not trivial, and it will completely fuck up your lighting in both day and night cycles, requiring most of the object materials to be redone to compensate. I should know this because we ran through the same problem. We use SilverLining (and Triton for water) by http://sundog-soft.com/ (http://sundog-soft.com/) software because it was cheaper than doing it from scratch. Then we had to integrate it into our custom engine. It fucked up everything. And we had to redo a number of our asset materials. And we had to go back in a mess with the scene lighting because at some times at night, it was so very dark. Done right, you end up with results like the LoD day/night shots (http://lodgame.com/mediapage/).
Probability of them doing it: 50% (if they cheat instead of doing it correctly like SilverLining)
- Tying the TOD to the star
This is not needed as it's arbitrary and doesn't need to be mapped to any Sun. You just create a curve that's matched to your virtual day/night cycle. e.g. in LoD, a full day<->night cycle is 3hrs. But I can change that to anything I want. In fact, in the last server update, I made it 1hr so that we can continue to quickly test lighting issues in day or night without having to use our console cheat code to change the TOD.
Probability of them doing it: 0%
- Procedural world generation
There are two parts to this :
1) World Terrain
Involves creation of the world terrain (space or planet) using either 1) procedural generation or 2) handcrafting
No Man's Sky does 1
All my games use a combo of 1 & 2 depending on the game e.g. LoD has no procedural generation other than the ground terrain generated from pre-computed height map data
In my space/planetary combat games such as Battlecruiser/Universal Combat/Echo Squad, the entire world is data generated, while the planet/moon surfaces are procedurally generated from data. The POIs (star base etc) are hand-crafted in an editor, and placed in the desired locations.
In LoD, everything - aside from the ground terrain data - is handcrafted. The ground terrain data is generated from heightmaps which are stored on disk. That terrain is loaded into our editor so that the POIs can be placed where designed.
In SC, their SolEd tool is apparently used for them to design their world space to match what they have in the Star Map. All it does is say where things are. It doesn't actually generate anything. That data is stored on disk so that when the world is loaded, it knows where everything is located.
I have the same tool. It's called TED, is over 30 years (I shit you not) old, and looks like this (showing the Jupiter region). All it does is allow the manual placement of objects (planet, moon, jump anomalies) so that when the world is loaded, those entities are then mapped by data files which determine how to handle them in real-time via procedural generation. That's all it does.
(http://imgur.com/8ZH6712.jpg)
2) World Assets
Involves placing assets in the world using either 1) procedural generation or 2) hand crafting
No Man's Sky does 1 & 2 . All my games use 1 & 2
My legacy games (Battlecruiser, Universal Combat, Echo Squad) which have space combat, use TED to create the space world, and PTE to handcraft POIs with pre-computed terrain. It looks like this.
(http://imgur.com/INDQoLr.jpg)
This editing tool not only allows you to setup and test things like weather, ToD etc, but it also allows the creation and placement of POIs anywhere on a planet, anywhere in the game world.
There is a full album with more shots here: http://imgur.com/a/KQ2Ii (http://imgur.com/a/KQ2Ii)
This entire world map you see below from Battlecruiser/Universal Combat series, was built using only those two tools. The engine does everything else in real-time.
(http://www.3000ad.com/downloads/ucce/appendix/images/maps/galaxy_map_links.jpg)
And because the client and server handle all this crap on-the-fly, there are no loading (other than disk access depending on where you are on the planet) times or performance issues to contend with.
As massive and complex as it is, not to mention having low visual fidelity due to age, you can download the latest version of Universal Combat CE right now on Steam, and see everything they're trying to do - besides the fps in ships/stations part - working just fine. Just like in ED (though it doesn't have planets).
And the beauty of it is that a lot of world object such as stations, starbases etc are totally scripted into the game world. This way they can be added/removed as-needed; something that you can't do with a world built with static geometry. For e.g. you can destroy any space station in BC/UC/ES games, but you can't do that in Star Citizen.
This Vimeo video shows what Universal Combat CE looks like with a single space region, complete with orbiting planet, station etc.
Not a valid vimeo URL
A few months back, I released the modding tools UCCE 3.0x (http://steamcommunity.com/app/345580/discussions/2/133259956013199736/). Even if you don't own the game, you can download it and check out the data files and tools.
STAR CITIZEN 3.0:
They are apparently using World Machine for their terrain height maps. There are several tutorials on the Internet showing how to create surface terrain in CryEngine.
The terrain data is generated on-the-fly using some procedural techniques for terrain relief, rocks, fauna etc. No way you're going to handcraft all that crap manually.
They have tools that also allows them to 'paint' terrain features, generate relief data, as well as repeating objects like rocks, fauna etc giving more control over POI areas.
As above, they are also manually adding POI assets (base, derelicts, mission data) in the editor.
The problem they are going to have is in performance and networking.
I predict that 3.0 is going to be an unmitigated disaster if they release it before year end. But they will, because they have no choice. They have a LOT riding on this one, and Spergs really think this is the 'one' that brings salvation & vindication to the flock.
None of this is rocket science or brain surgery. You just need to build the tech, along with an engine to power it. You can build engine tech (e.g. see Outerra, Infinity Battlespace, Duel Universe etc) all day long, putting a game on top of it, is a whole different ball game.
And God help you if you put the cart before the horse, as they've done with Star Citizen - then your project is FUBAR. That's where they are now.
All they had to do was this:
1) Pick the right engine (not CryEngine) or build a custom engine from one that wasn't designed primarily for one type of game
2) Build the world editing tools for creating both space and planetary terrain
3) Build the space terrain so that the entire space world (as seen in the Star Map) is there
4) Build the space related missions and features
5) Build the planetary tech. Since this would be isolated from all of the above, it doesn't break continuity because, like what ED did, once you have it working, you LATER just edit your space world to handle planet entry into planets and moons
6) Build the planet related missions and features
But no, that was too easy, and they had an incompetent buffoon who hasn't worked in a dev team, let alone build a fucking game in almost two decades, at the helm. I would bet that, aside from Squadron 42 requiring ALL the tech they're building for Star Citizen, it too probably has planet based missions. Which is probably why they're now having to build this in 3.0, instead of fleshing out a "game", then adding that later. All this time could have been spent on 3-4 above to keep backers happy and dropping their knickers with each patch. Then you hit them with planetary tech one day - and boom - all their clothes come off. But you see, as backers have been giving them money this whole time, they had no reason to plan properly, let alone show meaningful progress. I mean, 6 years + $155M later, as I mentioned here (http://dereksmart.com/forums/topic/star-citizen-musings/#post-5543), look at this shit. LOOK AT IT!!
- 3.0 (Moons) is planned for Aug 2017
- 2.6 (Star Marine) // Dec 2016
- 2.0 (Persistent Universe + Multi-Crew) // Dec 2015
- 1.2 (ArcCorp Social Module) // Aug 2015
- 1.0 (Arena Commander) // Dec 2014
- 0.x (Hangar Module) // Aug 2013
They're so fucked, it beggars belief. No wonder they are now talking about 5 - 10 systems at "launch", when in fact they don't even have 1 (Stanton) ready.
Now, if 3.0 actually comes out, this is how much it has been scaled back....
(http://i.imgur.com/mBQspA4.jpg)
Compared to what was promised almost a year ago
(http://imgur.com/54axyWT.jpg)
NOTE: The LoD game engine (http://lodgame.com/13-12-02-state-of-play/) was built from various middleware (why re-invent the wheel), and is completely different from what we've used for our legacy games. It was built from scratch.
And in case you missed my post about the furor that the GameStar preview has caused, you can read it here (http://dereksmart.com/forums/topic/star-citizen-musings/#post-5543).
This was Aug 2016
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DEZ5KeYWsAII_AU.jpg)
Post by: helimoth on July 19, 2017, 10:46:29 AM
I predict that 3.0 is going to be an unmitigated disaster if they release it before year end. But they will, because they have no choice. They have a LOT riding on this one, and Spergs really think this is the 'one' that brings salvation & vindication to the flock.
CR will just bait and switch again. He'll rattle off some speech about how some core tech was still needed but they were a matter of days/weeks away from releasing a "proper" 3.0 but will release what they have. This days/weeks becomes months and all of sudden 4.0 is the new jesus patch.
Post by: dsmart on July 19, 2017, 12:01:29 PM
I predict that 3.0 is going to be an unmitigated disaster if they release it before year end. But they will, because they have no choice. They have a LOT riding on this one, and Spergs really think this is the 'one' that brings salvation & vindication to the flock.
CR will just bait and switch again. He'll rattle off some speech about how some core tech was still needed but they were a matter of days/weeks away from releasing a "proper" 3.0 but will release what they have. This days/weeks becomes months and all of sudden 4.0 is the new jesus patch.
Well most of the hardcore already moved the Jesus Patch to 3.1; or didn't you get the memo?
Post by: Serendipity on July 20, 2017, 02:43:20 AM
This seems counter intuitive to me. Surely the more modules you add on, the more likely it is to cause conflicts. Obviously I know little on the subject but it seems you're outright accusing the devs at CIG of lying in every video they put out. It seems unlikely they would all be happy to bare faced lie on camera about their progress and achievements.
Isn't it possible that they could, after many years of work, have modified enough of the engine to do what they claim they've done? A guy called Occam would think so. Doing what they say they're doing is the simplest explanation, rather than the whole company making stuff up on camera to the tune of these stories of inevitable failure.
Something doesn't add up. I suppose 3.0 will aid us all in our mathematics.
Post by: dsmart on July 20, 2017, 05:04:45 AM
So am I to take it Derek, that adding various middleware modules onto an already existing engine is an easier and more stable solution to modifying an existing engine with the people who made it in the first place?
Yes. That's why things like middleware, plugins (Unity, UE etc) and such exist. They are designed specifically for the target engine and are always a time saved. And most of the implementation is always straightforward. e.g. Star Citizen uses Scaleform (we use Iggy in LoD) for their UI. No way they would have spent time building a UI into StarEngine, as that takes up a lot of time. CIG also use various other middleware for things like AI, physics, networking etc.
Back when I started out, even as the tools I showed those images of are old and look awful, I had to write everything from scratch. We didn't have middleware or plugins to do this crap. That's one of the main reasons (besides inexperience) that my first game, Battlecruiser 3000AD, took so long. Then again, until LoD, my game engines were all written from scratch, and specifically customized for the games I was making.
This bit about CIG hiring some of the CryTek engineers in GER is always interesting to me. Those are not the guys who "built" the engine. They have experience with it, more than anyone else at CIG. Why? Because CryEngine isn't popular like Unity, UE4 etc, so very few people have experience using it. And since they opened that studio, and when backers were claiming they were the magicians who were going to make it happen - three years later, they haven't. As I wrote back in 2015, they were better off starting with a custom engine that had a different framework to support the increased scope of the game. If you are building a house with a sand foundation, building a mansion, instead of an apartment, on top of it, isn't to work out so well in the future. And replacing the sand foundation with concrete is a lot of work, so you could pour cement over the sand and hope for the best. That's their StarEngine atm. The sand foundation - being CryEngine - is still there.
Quote
This seems counter intuitive to me. Surely the more modules you add on, the more likely it is to cause conflicts. Obviously I know little on the subject but it seems you're outright accusing the devs at CIG of lying in every video they put out. It seems unlikely they would all be happy to bare faced lie on camera about their progress and achievements.
A lot of the time using third-party middleware is a time saver; and also it helps if you don't have someone on staff who knows enough about the engine to implement those pieces into it. Any conflicts, if any, are usually resolved during the integration process.
I don't know what "progress" you are talking about, or how it pertains to this subject, but I don't recall accusing them of lying about anything. There is a difference between lying, and being inexperienced and/or incompetent.
Quote
Isn't it possible that they could, after many years of work, have modified enough of the engine to do what they claim they've done?
No.
Quote
A guy called Occam would think so. Doing what they say they're doing is the simplest explanation, rather than the whole company making stuff up on camera to the tune of these stories of inevitable failure.
Actually no, that's not how Occam would apply in this situation because the simplest explanation isn't that they have actually done it. It's that they can't do it.
Quote
Something doesn't add up. I suppose 3.0 will aid us all in our mathematics.
It won't. And 3.0 is no indication of anything. It's just another module (ground access) tacked on. I remember back when some people were saying the same thing about 2.0.
Post by: Serendipity on July 20, 2017, 05:39:26 AM
You seem to be suggesting they can't do what they have repeatedly said they can do. 0% probability, as you say up there, means anyone who has said they've got the ability to do it is telling a lie. Each and every time. I find it unlikely that everytime a dev on ATV has said they can do any aspect you've mentioned as being impossible, they've been telling lies. After all, they're the ones working with the modified engine, not you. How sure can you be about them having zero percent probability of achieving something they say they can, and have, achieved, when you don't have access to their cryengine base code?
I do not like absolutes. I'm a scientist and nothing has zero percent probability...
Post by: dsmart on July 20, 2017, 06:36:37 AM
CIG claim to have a single map, millions of km in size, populated with object entities, such as planets and moons etc, that is all accessible seamslessley, without loading screens, streaming data to the clients as you approach them. They've talked about this and shown it in numerous ATVs and other places. They've said they get real time day and night cycles because of this way they've built the game. They've said they can have planet rotation and orbits.
You seem to be suggesting they can't do what they have repeatedly said they can do. 0% probability, as you say up there, means anyone who has said they've got the ability to do it is telling a lie. Each and every time. I find it unlikely that everytime a dev on ATV has said they can do any aspect you've mentioned as being impossible, they've been telling lies. After all, they're the ones working with the modified engine, not you. How sure can you be about them having zero percent probability of achieving something they say they can, and have, achieved, when you don't have access to their cryengine base code?
Yeah because in the history of the gaming industry, devs have never lied or flat out made shit up. It's one thing to have stuff in R&D and claim to have it, than to actually implement it. If you go back to 2013, since the first version of this train-wreck, they've talked up a bunch of tech and features that either are long forgotten, or yet to be implemented. Even to this day, they're still doing it. There are no day/night cycles. No orbiting moons and planets. In fact, no planets - period.
I remember in Oct 2016 when everyone thought that the presentation being passed off as 3.0 - complete with a glitchy worm - was actual client code that was coming in Dec 2016. Then CIG came clean that it was all mostly R&D. Then they made a "Road To CitizenCon" video.
My stance hasn't changed, and I don't care what anyone says, the game they can't build the game they promised. They can make as many claims as they want, it won't change my stance.
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I do not like absolutes. I'm a scientist and nothing has zero percent probability...
Common sense doesn't require scientific acumen, proof, or basis.
Post by: mixalot on July 20, 2017, 10:45:02 AM
At this point in time, a lot of Backers don't actually want a game, they are paying for an "experience" and CIG know it.
Star Citizen and SQ42 are just ideas and paying for JPEGS lets you pretend you are part of a new frontier in PC gaming and can talk about being in the club.
This is the so true and so on point. It's the same reason why people come out in masses to play the lottery when it reaches >500 million. People who would never play the lotto turn out and buy a $20-$100 series of tickets because they think "hey, why not?" They know they have basically no statistical chance to win the money, but they fantasize about the 'what if'. Essentially, when they buy their lotto ticket(s), they're buying a brief 1-day euphoria where they can fantasize about what they would do with all their money if they won and look forward to the numbers being played. And that's it, no more and no less.
Roberts has done the same thing; he sold every sci-fi gamer fan his version of the space lottery with varying levels of purchasable tickets. But instead of showing the contestants how much money they can win, he shows them ATVs and YouTube videos of an equivalent promised land. A thing they can fantasize about playing if they only contribute money.
That's what keeps the project going, is the fantasies and the imagination of sci-fi fans. Roberts is a POS because he knows this and preys upon it to suck these people dry. The guy has no original creativity and everything he's shown in SC is a ripoff of some other form of existing sci-fi fandom. He's not innovative and he doesn't have a gaming "vision." He makes his money due to nostalgia and the promises he's made that he can't keep.
(Edited for spelling)
Post by: dsmart on July 20, 2017, 01:02:25 PM
https://robertsspaceindustries.com/comm-link/transmission/16014-Behold-The-Cyclone
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DFNCFlEWsAA5qXo.jpg)
Post by: Narrenbart on July 20, 2017, 01:30:24 PM
Just when you thought the Star Citizen saga couldn't any more ridonkulous, this is the latest JPEG that's going on sale.is this a buggy with ground to air combat missles? ... WTF
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DFNCFlEWsAA5qXo.jpg)
Post by: Motto on July 20, 2017, 01:32:25 PM
Post by: Meowz on July 20, 2017, 01:36:03 PM
Post by: Narrenbart on July 20, 2017, 01:44:25 PM
Post by: Narrenbart on July 20, 2017, 01:51:16 PM
This is something that should be in an expansion 2 years after release .... I guess we can now count the days until they put planetary buildings for sale ...
They are really gonna sell every fucking asset in the store ...
Post by: Motto on July 20, 2017, 02:14:22 PM
It doesn't matter anymore. They can't pull a rabbit out of the hat again in August and the certainly can't do/top that in October. It'll be all over by December. Even all the whales can't compensate the steady loss of funding.
Post by: dsmart on July 20, 2017, 02:32:08 PM
Post by: dsmart on July 20, 2017, 02:45:04 PM
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DFNZ7IDXUAA5s67.jpg)
Post by: StanTheMan on July 20, 2017, 03:27:00 PM
CIG claim to have a single map, millions of km in size, populated with object entities, such as planets and moons etc, that is all accessible seamslessley, without loading screens, streaming data to the clients as you approach them. They've talked about this and shown it in numerous ATVs and other places. They've said they get real time day and night cycles because of this way they've built the game. They've said they can have planet rotation and orbits.
You seem to be suggesting they can't do what they have repeatedly said they can do. 0% probability, as you say up there, means anyone who has said they've got the ability to do it is telling a lie. Each and every time. I find it unlikely that everytime a dev on ATV has said they can do any aspect you've mentioned as being impossible, they've been telling lies. After all, they're the ones working with the modified engine, not you. How sure can you be about them having zero percent probability of achieving something they say they can, and have, achieved, when you don't have access to their cryengine base code?
Yeah because in the history of the gaming industry, devs have never lied or flat out made shit up. It's one thing to have stuff in R&D and claim to have it, than to actually implement it. If you go back to 2013, since the first version of this train-wreck, they've talked up a bunch of tech and features that either are long forgotten, or yet to be implemented. Even to this day, they're still doing it. There are no day/night cycles. No orbiting moons and planets. In fact, no planets - period.
I remember in Oct 2016 when everyone thought that the presentation being passed off as 3.0 - complete with a glitchy worm - was actual client code that was coming in Dec 2016. Then CIG came clean that it was all mostly R&D. Then they made a "Road To CitizenCon" video.
My stance hasn't changed, and I don't care what anyone says, the game they can't build the game they promised. They can make as many claims as they want, it won't change my stance.QuoteI do not like absolutes. I'm a scientist and nothing has zero percent probability...
Common sense doesn't require scientific acumen, proof, or basis.
Oh an I would add that there have been key senior staff leaving CIG over the last few years who you would expect to have stayed on if CIG were doing what they claim to be doing , because working on the BDSSE is great for the CV/Resume.
Then you have younger developers sucking up to the boss, saying stupid things on camera, because they don't know any better, they are going with the flow, being loyal, being bullish lots of reasons.
Post by: StanTheMan on July 20, 2017, 03:31:28 PM
This really freaks me out ... they barely got a flight model to work lets just ignore the 60 different ships they have to balance now count ground to air combat in this ...
This is something that should be in an expansion 2 years after release .... I guess we can now count the days until they put planetary buildings for sale ...
They are really gonna sell every fucking asset in the store ...
Remember we can all have tons of NPCs driving these around blowing people out of the sky whilst we explore elsewhere....it is going to be so much fun ...
Post by: StanTheMan on July 20, 2017, 03:51:52 PM
Well, they have to keep everybody longing for something new. Another ship, who cares. Whoo, a buggy, that's nice.
It doesn't matter anymore. They can't pull a rabbit out of the hat again in August and the certainly can't do/top that in October. It'll be all over by December. Even all the whales can't compensate the steady loss of funding.
they might only pull that rabbit out of the hat in October and publisise it in August.
Post by: Motto on July 20, 2017, 04:23:05 PM
Post by: Serendipity on July 21, 2017, 02:35:10 AM
As long as they can get money for concepts then there is hope the technology will catch up with the plans. More time to do the 'impossible'. I mean, just because it hasn't been done yet, doesn't mean it can't be done. If the funding doesn't dry up and they keep plugging away at it they're bound to get something worthwhile in the end.
Moving from a moon to a planet when you've gone from maximum map size of 10km X 10km to millions X millions doesn't sound like a tough ask. Once they have moons I doubt planets will be far behind.
The gamescom presentation will be vital to the funding. Create more buzz and the company keeps on keeping on. Get moons out to backers and there will be much rejoicing and wallet opening.
This project isn't finished yet, no where near.
Post by: Motto on July 21, 2017, 02:54:49 AM
This project isn't finished yet, no where near.Even better, this project will never be finished :smuggo:
Post by: helimoth on July 21, 2017, 03:05:31 AM
How sure can you be about them having zero percent probability of achieving something they say they can, and have, achieved, when you don't have access to their cryengine base code?
That's an easy one to answer; you can just judge by their current progress. Obviously if they had an unlimited pot of money and unlimited time they could probably make any game they wanted - in that sense it's not an impossibility. When you look that so far they have a tiny % of the game they want to make and already have burned their way through many millions (depending on how you estimate their spending to date) you can begin to see that there's no way they finish the game in the way they have described. The only thing holding this whole house of cards from crumbling down is a thin veneer of glue known as the jesus patch - the promise that they are just 1 patch away from fixing all the huge problems with the game and allowing a very quick, streamlined addition of content all the way to full alpha and beyond.
Post by: Serendipity on July 21, 2017, 05:17:49 AM
How sure can you be about them having zero percent probability of achieving something they say they can, and have, achieved, when you don't have access to their cryengine base code?
That's an easy one to answer; you can just judge by their current progress. Obviously if they had an unlimited pot of money and unlimited time they could probably make any game they wanted - in that sense it's not an impossibility. When you look that so far they have a tiny % of the game they want to make and already have burned their way through many millions (depending on how you estimate their spending to date) you can begin to see that there's no way they finish the game in the way they have described. The only thing holding this whole house of cards from crumbling down is a thin veneer of glue known as the jesus patch - the promise that they are just 1 patch away from fixing all the huge problems with the game and allowing a very quick, streamlined addition of content all the way to full alpha and beyond.
That's silly. Just because it hasn't been done yet doesn't mean it won't be done. They talk about their new systems coming online which, if true, might well allow a lot of the touted features to be possible.
Some said 2.0 was impossible yet it got done. A single cryengine map, millions of square kilometres in size. If you'd just looked at arena commander you may have made the same conclusion. 2.0 can't be done, AC is only 10 X 10km or so, no way they can make a map millions of kilometres a side...
Recent sales have proved they can raise money as and when they want so it's not dieing anytime soon. With time and more money who knows what will be become possible.
Post by: dsmart on July 21, 2017, 05:19:17 AM
They need sales, this is nothing new and neither are ground vehicles. Ursa, hangar buggy, dragonfly etc. When they release 3.0, whenever that may be, backers will have a few things to move around these uniquely huge cryengine assets with. Of course it's going to excite some. The funding tracker tells us to the tune of a quarter million dollars in a day. That's a decent level of interest still.
As long as they can get money for concepts then there is hope the technology will catch up with the plans. More time to do the 'impossible'. I mean, just because it hasn't been done yet, doesn't mean it can't be done. If the funding doesn't dry up and they keep plugging away at it they're bound to get something worthwhile in the end.
Moving from a moon to a planet when you've gone from maximum map size of 10km X 10km to millions X millions doesn't sound like a tough ask. Once they have moons I doubt planets will be far behind.
The gamescom presentation will be vital to the funding. Create more buzz and the company keeps on keeping on. Get moons out to backers and there will be much rejoicing and wallet opening.
This project isn't finished yet, no where near.
If only that were true. They are not making enough monthly income to sustain all the studios. This is not hyperbole, it's an actual fact now, going from what we have seen of the financials. As long as they are making less than $3M per month, they just can't continue forever without scaling down the team. And never in the history of the industry, has throwing money at a bad project, resulted in a good project. And the issue with these two projects is more about the promises made, than about what kind of games will come out at the end.
The surface area of the planet/moon is irrelevant. It's all about performance, practicality, and what to do and put on the surface. ED has a far more superior engine and game, yet they don't have planets. They have moons and planetoids with specific POIs. In SC, the reason they are doing moons and planetoids is specifically because of the scale and performance issues. Big for the sake of big, doesn't make it a game if it's pointless. In these games, the reason you would want a large surface area, is about aircraft. An aircraft flying at 350 m/s in space, isn't going to travel that fast on the planet without running out of space.
As to the moon vs planet vs planetoid issue, this is an excerpt from what I wrote yesterday (http://dereksmart.com/forums/topic/star-citizen-musings/#post-5580):
"I remember when planets were coming. Then we found out they were moons (Yela and Cellin) – of course because they are smaller, and easier to handle and build, than full blown planets.
Then, after promising the Stanton system back in 2016, they are now saying that they’re going to be moving (LOL!!) Delamar from Nyx to Stanton. You know why? Because they can’t do planets, or they would be building the Crusader planet, which is in Stanton already. Instead, since Delamar (within the Glaciem ring/belt in Nyx) is just a large asteroid the size of a small planet (hence planetoid), they are moving it to Stanton.
If they can move Delamar, they could very well have changed Crusader from a gas giant to a regular planet, built that, and left Delamar where it is. But that would mean having to build an actual planet which would require a larger surface area, more terrain assets, POIs etc. The problem with creating surface area in these games is that when you have air/space craft which can travel up to 350 m/s in space, due to the expanse, on a planet they will quickly run out of space to fly.
And Delamar, which has the Levksi landing zone, may not even be in 3.0 when it first launches.
===
It's worse than that.
Nyx is an entirely different star system which they haven't built. So leaving Delamar where it is, would have meant building the Nyx star system, when in fact they only have Stanton (15% built, if you counted all the elements in the Star map, compared to what's in the current game client), and having to deal with player transitions from one system to another. So they just said, fuck it, we'll just move it."
It doesn't matter how much money they have, or how long they keep at this, it's never going to amount to the game they pitched. Back in July 2015 when they had $85M, I said they needed at least $150M, the right tech, and experienced people to build Star Citizen. They crossed that financial milestone back in May 2017 - and they are still not even 15% of the way there (https://starcitizentracker.github.io/). Now, assuming the GameStar article is accurate, they are talking about 5 - 10 systems at "launch". So do the math.
That's an easy one to answer; you can just judge by their current progress. Obviously if they had an unlimited pot of money and unlimited time they could probably make any game they wanted - in that sense it's not an impossibility. When you look that so far they have a tiny % of the game they want to make and already have burned their way through many millions (depending on how you estimate their spending to date) you can begin to see that there's no way they finish the game in the way they have described. The only thing holding this whole house of cards from crumbling down is a thin veneer of glue known as the jesus patch - the promise that they are just 1 patch away from fixing all the huge problems with the game and allowing a very quick, streamlined addition of content all the way to full alpha and beyond.
It's not even the Jesus Patch that's holding it together. It's the real backers, and those engaged in money laundering, who are propping it up financially. Without some money coming in, investment and loans aside, the whole thing falls apart. And that's the thing with Ponzi schemes, no matter how long you run them for, it's only going to take one event to topple it.
That's silly. Just because it hasn't been done yet doesn't mean it won't be done. They talk about their new systems coming online which, if true, might well allow a lot of the touted features to be possible.
Some said 2.0 was impossible yet it got done. A single cryengine map, millions of square kilometres in size. If you'd just looked at arena commander you may have made the same conclusion. 2.0 can't be done, AC is only 10 X 10km or so, no way they can make a map millions of kilometres a side...
Recent sales have proved they can raise money as and when they want so it's not dieing anytime soon. With time and more money who knows what will be become possible.
That's a silly argument to make. Nobody is saying that it can't be done because it hasn't been done before. The narrative, at least from my perspective, is that it can't be done because the game pitched faces insurmountable obstacles in terms of tech, talent, and money. So far, this continues to be fact, as evidenced by the amount of money they've thrown at it, how long it's taken, and the fact that even 3 years overdue, still isn't even 15% of the way there.
Nobody ever said 2.0 was impossible. Please go ahead and cite some sources where you saw this. Like Arena Commander, Star Marine etc there is nothing in 2.0 that would have been impossible because it doesn't contain anything that hasn't been done before, nor revolutionary. And the map size in 2.0 has nothing to do with it not being possible to do. It's just a map extent increase which they hacked in support for; and I've written extensively about this already.
And raising money has no correlation to success if they have insurmountable challenges to face. And those challenges stem from the game they pitched. There are many million and billion Dollar companies that fail - every day - wiping away years of work and investor money. I'm sure they too thought they would make it if they just kept getting money.
Speaking of performance issues, this is from yesterday's AtV. Ignoring that it's running in the editor, this is with NO game clients and NO gameplay features in the scene. Only rendering. And THAT'S the problem they are facing, and which I have been writing about since I got wind of it.
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DFN34Z_XYAAVAcD.jpg)
Post by: Serendipity on July 21, 2017, 07:55:22 AM
On the finances you've answered your own questions. If they were running out of money they would be cutting staff left and right wouldn't they? Stories of non payment of wages leaking out etc. Instead they're growing the studios. I've heard that they're running out of money for a couple of years now...and here we are, still a going concern, still developing.
They're moving landing zones in the alpha because intra system travel isn't coming for quite some time yet but the landing zones have been worked on for a while. They'll be moved back to their rightful positions once they have different systems to travel to.
The FPS counter visible in some development videos means nothing. At all. I'm sure you know that. No context. No value.
It impossible that everything they do is incompetant, fabrication or plagiarised, yet some around the web will try to tell me it is so. I just don't buy it. Troubled they may be but a product is coming. What type of product is the interesting bit.
Post by: Motto on July 21, 2017, 08:55:09 AM
There is so much wrong with this project that even a blind and deaf man can read and hear that this game is never going to be finished/released. I'd suggest you start repeating the words "Derek Smart was right" on a regular basis. I don't know how to define regular for you, but I'd do it enough to be able to say them without problems in a couple of months :D
Post by: Meowz on July 21, 2017, 09:17:59 AM
It would be nice if you could at least try to be objective Derek. Nobody has made a cryengine map bigger than a few kilometres square before. CIG converted to 64 bit positional coordinates and produced a cryengine map millions of km across that you can travel seamlessly. To suggest that's been done before is either willful ignorance or a straight up lie.
On the finances you've answered your own questions. If they were running out of money they would be cutting staff left and right wouldn't they? Stories of non payment of wages leaking out etc. Instead they're growing the studios. I've heard that they're running out of money for a couple of years now...and here we are, still a going concern, still developing.
They're moving landing zones in the alpha because intra system travel isn't coming for quite some time yet but the landing zones have been worked on for a while. They'll be moved back to their rightful positions once they have different systems to travel to.
The FPS counter visible in some development videos means nothing. At all. I'm sure you know that. No context. No value.
It impossible that everything they do is incompetant, fabrication or plagiarised, yet some around the web will try to tell me it is so. I just don't buy it. Troubled they may be but a product is coming. What type of product is the interesting bit.
A big problem here and the Refunds Reddit is those at odds against CIG are also at odds with themselves. I don't think anyone here TRULY wants SC to fail. Even DS often states that he would love to play SC as it was pitched because, after all, we are all old space sim fans so why wouldn't he want to play an impressive and fun game? However on the other end people get so emotionally attached that when they finally get fed up they also want to see CIG fail, for the exact reasons IDK but I hypothesize its due to some sense of justice over CR's mismanagement and frequent dishonesty (more likely blatant lying about what they can do, and the status of the project/company) to the public. Basically they feel like they've been taken for a ride and advantage of so to see CIG collapse would be poetic justice and for a few CR is little more than a conman at this point.
DS is the only person I can think of that has any right to a personal grievance with CR and CIG since they have personally and publicly attacked him and his projects, as well as cultivated the anti-DS cult which is beyond bazaar. The rest of us are very much at odds, sadly if CIG does tank and SC fails as a fun game with lots of repayable content everyone loses. The CIG staff who are innocent in the matter lose their job, we lose the game we dreamed for, we all lose.
Post by: Narrenbart on July 21, 2017, 10:09:43 AM
[...] The CIG staff who are innocent in the matter lose their job, we lose the game we dreamed for, we all lose.Except the Roberts Clan they've won, millions of backers money for a wealthy future.
Post by: Scruffpuff on July 21, 2017, 11:36:55 AM
(https://pics.onsizzle.com/so-youre-saying-theres-a-chance-memes-com-16169791.png)
Lots of things are possible - there are people out there breaking the boundaries of what we think possible every day. Chris Roberts is the opposite of those people.
Post by: dsmart on July 21, 2017, 05:03:51 PM
It would be nice if you could at least try to be objective Derek. Nobody has made a cryengine map bigger than a few kilometres square before. CIG converted to 64 bit positional coordinates and produced a cryengine map millions of km across that you can travel seamlessly. To suggest that's been done before is either willful ignorance or a straight up lie.
I have no idea what you are going on about. My "it hasn't been done before" was about the game features and scope. You are talking about some engine modification. The two are mutually exclusive. Heck, I wrote an entire paragraph on exactly what I was talking about. Why would I even say that expanding the size of a CryEngine map hasn't been done before, when in fact an MMO game did just that; though not to the extent that Star Citizen did.
And you're talking about CryEngine - which nobody cares about. My BC/UC games, Dual Universe, Infinity Battlespace, Elite Dangerous etc, all have massive worlds. Star Citizen is just playing catch-up, regardless of what engine they used to do it.
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On the finances you've answered your own questions. If they were running out of money they would be cutting staff left and right wouldn't they? Stories of non payment of wages leaking out etc. Instead they're growing the studios. I've heard that they're running out of money for a couple of years now...and here we are, still a going concern, still developing.
That's false.
1) people ARE leaving.
2) the studio sizes HAVE been decreasing this year
3) there won't be storied of non-payment if they are still making payroll
The ONLY reason the project is still afloat is because you guys keep propping it up. Nothing wrong with that, it's your money. But don't pretend as if this project would still be a going concern if they were still relying on $45 game sales, instead of concept ships and other shenanigans to raise money. It would be over by now. That's why they keep doing those sales.
In the history of the industry, you only ever start hearing horror stories usually after the fact.
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They're moving landing zones in the alpha because intra system travel isn't coming for quite some time yet but the landing zones have been worked on for a while. They'll be moved back to their rightful positions once they have different systems to travel to.
We know this. I wrote about it. And the reason for that is because they would rather be milking Stanton which has pre-existing content, than building another system (e.g. Nyx) to support intra-system travel. As I mentioned above, if they could do entire planets, they would have temporarily made Crusader a regular planet, instead of having to move Delamar, a planetoid, from Nyx to Stanton. THAT tells me that 1) they are having technical issues with intra-system travel due to the scope and code needed to do it 2) building Nyx would take resources away from Stanton - which they are currently using as a proof-of-concept to raise money.
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The FPS counter visible in some development videos means nothing. At all. I'm sure you know that. No context. No value.
That's false.
The FPS counter means something because, in a level, it allows the artists to determine how well and optimized the level is. They have to account for gameplay and client additions later. That's how it works. And that's why the FPS counter is important.
It is a benchmark tool which also prevents the artist/modeler from going overboard with assets in the scene.
We ran into the same issues with Line Of Defense whereby, using the FPS counter, the team that builds our scenes, had to cut back on a lot of things, include terrain mesh, polygon reduction in some assets (e.g. buildings). And even though the game is content complete, the performance is still undergoing review from time to time in order to streamline the scenes.
In fact, our Gulge (http://lodgame.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/gulge_panorama.jpg) scene is the most complex and doesn't run as smooth as Heatwave (http://lodgame.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/heatwave_panorama.jpg) or the other two (Frostbite, Nightbridge) scenes, which are also complex and huge.
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It impossible that everything they do is incompetant, fabrication or plagiarised, yet some around the web will try to tell me it is so. I just don't buy it. Troubled they may be but a product is coming. What type of product is the interesting bit.
Nobody is implying any of that, and you shouldn't be paying attention to that nonsense. Not everything about the project is a rubbish. It has a LOT of good parts, mostly in terms of visual fidelity, and some gameplay aspects. Technology wise, they're not breaking any new ground. At the end of the day, the gameplay - not the tech - is what will make or break the game.
Post by: dsmart on July 21, 2017, 05:07:15 PM
The problems and rumors that come with financial troubles normally appear when there are no further rescue means available. The moment CIG has to make clear that they're in financial trouble is the moment that the project collapses. You can't burn thru almost 200 mil. and then expect someone to keep funding you so you can continue because you ran out of money.
There is so much wrong with this project that even a blind and deaf man can read and hear that this game is never going to be finished/released. I'd suggest you start repeating the words "Derek Smart was right" on a regular basis. I don't know how to define regular for you, but I'd do it enough to be able to say them without problems in a couple of months :D
Yes indeed. And that's how Ponzi schemes fail. All it takes is one. In the case of CIG, they are trying to give the illusion of healthy finances. We know the funding tracker to be bullshit (aside from the fact that it doesn't track subscriptions or refunds). And the UK loan is also bullshit. We don't know how financially stretched they are here in the US, as those numbers are not public - yet.
If a group of backers weren't still giving them money, this thing would have been all over by now. They know this. Which is why, the last two years, they've been using lies, and bullshot images and videos to give the illusion of progress.
I don't care what anyone says or believes, it's going to collapse.
Post by: dsmart on July 21, 2017, 05:14:11 PM
A big problem here and the Refunds Reddit is those at odds against CIG are also at odds with themselves. I don't think anyone here TRULY wants SC to fail. Even DS often states that he would love to play SC as it was pitched because, after all, we are all old space sim fans so why wouldn't he want to play an impressive and fun game?
Exactly. A lot of people keep forgetting that I was one of the ORIGINAL backers. Until I dared to question the project. And like what they do to other dissenting backers, they kicked me out. But not only that, they lied about their reasons to the media. Then took actions that ended up starting a massive war with their toxic backers.
And because I am 100% certain that I am right (as has been proven time and time again) about the insurmountable odds of developing the game, my end goal is more about vindication, than it is about my desire to see the project fail.
Even if they do somehow stick around for the next 2-3 years to "launch" the game with 5 - 10 systems, and SQ42, I would still play it. That won't change my quest for vindication, which, when you think about it, they already proved by scaling down the game since July 2015 when I said they couldn't build it as pitched.
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DS is the only person I can think of that has any right to a personal grievance with CR and CIG since they have personally and publicly attacked him and his projects, as well as cultivated the anti-DS cult which is beyond bazaar. The rest of us are very much at odds, sadly if CIG does tank and SC fails as a fun game with lots of repayable content everyone loses. The CIG staff who are innocent in the matter lose their job, we lose the game we dreamed for, we all lose.
Exactly. The trolling side of me wants it to collapse with a total loss of backer money, so that I can grief and laugh at those who have been attacking me for going on two years straight. The sensible backers, who I have more concern for, are the ones who have either refunded, or have very little invested in the game.
Post by: dsmart on July 21, 2017, 05:15:42 PM
The laser-focus on whether or not something is "possible" smacks of desperation.
(https://pics.onsizzle.com/so-youre-saying-theres-a-chance-memes-com-16169791.png)
Lots of things are possible - there are people out there breaking the boundaries of what we think possible every day. Chris Roberts is the opposite of those people.
LOL!! Indeed. That's the part that I simply don't understand. Chris have proven - publicly - that the project as pitched CANNOT be made. Yet, there are those who are somehow trumpeting this nonsense that because everything is possible, so to is this project. It's amazing.
Post by: dsmart on July 21, 2017, 05:44:35 PM
"First man on the moon: hands-on with Star Citizen Alpha 3.0" (http://www.pcgamer.com/first-man-on-the-moon-hands-on-with-star-citizen-alpha-30/)
At least they confirmed "seamless transition from space to planet". Now we wait to see if that's what they deliver or not.
The way he describes this part isn't very clear.
Quote
As promised, it was a seamless transition: taking off from the space station, flying into space, making a quantum jump to the Daymar, entering the atmosphere, and landing.
I would like to know more about that part specifically.
1) Is it like Elite Dangerous where you can fly directly into the planet without using frameshift? Same as in Battlespace Infinity.
2) Is it like Universal Combat where you fly directly into the planet, then when you breach the planet's gravitational pull you enter the atmosphere?
3) Is it like Line Of Defense where you fly to the planet in space, select a base to drop into via a menu, then you are transitioned from space to the atmosphere?
What if "making a quantum jump to Daymar" means jumping into the planet's atmosphere from space? Hence a concealed load screen transition from space to planet?
I am more interested in his seamless statement. Also, as he was no doubt running a local LAN build, his performance and experience would definitely be better than a live online session.
https://twitter.com/screencuisine/status/888635298833285120
https://twitter.com/screencuisine/status/888580814635622400
UPDATE: Print copy
In case you were wondering. There isn't a SINGLE image from the ACTUAL GAME in this article.
(https://i.imgur.com/b8ok51kr.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/wUrWSIV.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/KvVJymp.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/b8ok51k.jpg)
Post by: Serendipity on July 22, 2017, 03:53:04 AM
Really looking forward to 3.0 now. Should be amazing.
Post by: dsmart on July 22, 2017, 05:24:35 AM
Well there's a question answered in his reply tweets. Nice one Derek. Seamless transitions from space to moon, confirmed.
Yeah, his write-up wasn't very clear. That's why I asked him a follow-up question.
https://twitter.com/screencuisine/status/888635298833285120
He says he flew to both Daymar and an asteroid (I assume Delamar which has Levski landing zone).
I for one think it's a huge mistake for them to have it in the same scene because it's going to continue being a huge performance (streaming isn't going to solve that) hog, forcing them to change it at some point. Which leads me to believe that it was done this way probably for the review and to keep up the hype leading to GamesCon.
And until we can play it, there is still no way to tell how (which doesn't matter, as long as it works) they are handling the transition from space to the moon. It could be a "streamed" loading like ED when you are within proximity of the moon.
And if performance wasn't an issue, they'd have made Crusader a standard planet (instead of gas giant), instead of moving Delamar (a planetoid) from Nyx to Stanton in order to have barren moons which have less performance requirements than a full blown planet with more topological features.
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That's pretty special in cryengine looking as good as it does.
I don't know why it's "special" though. It's just another object in a CryEngine scene (as seen from the AtV videos). The debate has always been about whether or not they would keep it in the scene as-is (like the stations), or load it separately (like AC, Star Marine, ArcCorp) as its own level for performance reasons. And LumberYard has asset streaming built-in (http://docs.aws.amazon.com/lumberyard/latest/developerguide/system-streaming.html).
That they are still in pre-alpha, and it took them 5 years to get planetary scenes in a space game, even after touting it since 2015, is what's amazing. Not to mention the fact that they are still playing catch-up with that sort of thing anyway, as it's not revolutionary anymore.
Anyone who thinks 3.0 is going to be anything other than a milestone like 2.0 (2015) or 2.6 (Star Marine) is an idiot. It will get released in some fashion, backers will see that it's just another check mark in the list of promises, then forget about it after a week due to the repetitive "missions" in it. That's if performance issues allow even most of them to actually "play" it.
My stance on this planetary transition issue has been pretty consistent:
17-07-19 // performance issues in 3.0, seamless transition discussion (http://dereksmart.com/forums/topic/sc-scoop/#post-5521)
17-07-07 // procedural moons analysis (http://dereksmart.com/forums/topic/star-citizen-musings/#post-5501)
17-06-22 // 3.0 tech nightmare & performance hog (http://www.dereksmart.com/forum/index.php?topic=9.msg1728#msg1728)
17-05-15 // 3.0 seamless transition thoughts (http://www.dereksmart.com/forum/index.php?topic=29.msg1573#msg1573)
17-04-23 // discussion of moons in 3.0 (http://www.dereksmart.com/forum/index.php?topic=29.msg1432#msg1432)
17-02-13 // discussion with procedural planets videos (from Nyx to sandworm) (http://www.dereksmart.com/forum/index.php?topic=29.msg1053#msg1053)
16-10-29 // discussion of procedural planet generation (http://www.dereksmart.org/forums/topic/star-citizen-musings/#post-4725)
We also now know that they aren't doing "procedural planets" (as in Battlecruiser/Universal Combat games, No Man's Sky etc), despite touting this since 2014. Instead, they are using procedural techniques to populate the "surface" of planets and moons.
Post by: Serendipity on July 22, 2017, 06:03:39 AM
The performance issue is interesting. Client streaming won't improve the server performance of course but aren't they using procedural tech for it? They can't keep numerous moons and their respective landing zones in memory, poor performance or otheriwse, can they? Far too big aren't they? So streaming a single procedurally generated, huge asset is possible as other games do it.
Can't wait to find out anyway. Not long now...maybe.
Post by: dsmart on July 22, 2017, 06:17:11 AM
As you say, it really doesn't matter exactly how they do it as long as there's no loading screens or break from playing then they've managed to complete an important part of the puzzle.
The performance issue is interesting. Client streaming won't improve the server performance of course but aren't they using procedural tech for it? They can't keep numerous moons and their respective landing zones in memory, poor performance or otheriwse, can they? Far too big aren't they? So streaming a single procedurally generated, huge asset is possible as other games do it.
LumberYard/CryEngine has asset streaming built-in (http://docs.aws.amazon.com/lumberyard/latest/developerguide/system-streaming.html). It's not rocket science. The issue boils down to the amount of data needing to be streamed, the performance issues (e.g. hiccups, load stuttering etc) associated with that. This is probably why they opted to do barren moons instead of planets, as the latter would be more of a performance and resource hog. Hence the reason that, instead of temporarily making Crusader a regular planet (instead of a gas giant), they opted to move Delamar, a planetoid (asteroid) from Nyx, to Stanton, thus giving them two moons and a planetoid.
In all games, regardless of the tech and the visuals, if you can't address the performance issues, it doesn't matter how good the game is, it will fail. And early this morning a source and I exchange emails (started yesterday) in which he said that much hasn't changed in terms of performance since PC Gamer played 3.0 the middle of last month. So they are still in fact having performance issues in 3.0. What's left to be seen is if they release it to Evocati as is, or take drastic (e.g. loading the planets separately) to fix that.
Some people keep forgetting that this is NOT a single-player game. So it has a lot of hurdles to climb in order to make it work properly in a multiplayer environment.
Post by: Motto on July 22, 2017, 09:04:49 AM
Post by: dsmart on July 22, 2017, 10:13:43 AM
The big question is if they will release anything before the next big show-off. Since they never can live up to the expectations of the hard core idiots, any release would be yet another disappointment and thus killing a lot of income. Better to feed false news, grab all the anticipation money and then await the shitstorm. Makes you wonder if they dare to release anything between August and October for that matter.
Well they have another month to go before they have to deal with that. From what I am hearing, they're not going to be able to resolve the performance issues before then. So it remains to be seen if they will just dump it so they say they released it, then continue working on it. There are serious bugs in 2.6.3 (https://robertsspaceindustries.com/community/issue-council/star-citizen-alpha/prioritize?sort=most_vote) which have been there for years. So this update is just going to add more to that pile.
I don't care what anyone says, 3.0, while a major milestone like the others before it, isn't going to mean anything in the end, let alone rescue the game from its downward spiral. The entire project is irrecoverable because they've crossed the point where they could have saved it. That was back in 2015, following 2.0.
Post by: Meowz on July 22, 2017, 10:26:06 AM
The big question is if they will release anything before the next big show-off. Since they never can live up to the expectations of the hard core idiots, any release would be yet another disappointment and thus killing a lot of income. Better to feed false news, grab all the anticipation money and then await the shitstorm. Makes you wonder if they dare to release anything between August and October for that matter.
Well they have another month to go before they have to deal with that. From what I am hearing, they're not going to be able to resolve the performance issues before then. So it remains to be seen if they will just dump it so they say they released it, then continue working on it. There are serious bugs in 2.6.3 (https://robertsspaceindustries.com/community/issue-council/star-citizen-alpha/prioritize?sort=most_vote) which have been there for years. So this update is just going to add more to that pile.
I don't care what anyone says, 3.0, while a major milestone like the others before it, isn't going to mean anything in the end, let alone rescue the game from its downward spiral. The entire project is irrecoverable because they've crossed the point where they could have saved it. That was back in 2015, following 2.0.
Surely they realize this and will start doing whatever they can to salvage the project, even if it does mean reducing the majority of features promised at release which they seem to have started to do with the reduced solar systems. SQ42 as a single player game would generate at least a decent chunk of revenue if it is a fun game to play in its own. Is CR planning and preparing for a rough future, or just throwing the dice with the intent of either making some miracle breakthrough or willingly run the company into the ground?
Post by: dsmart on July 22, 2017, 11:02:06 AM
Surely they realize this and will start doing whatever they can to salvage the project, even if it does mean reducing the majority of features promised at release which they seem to have started to do with the reduced solar systems. SQ42 as a single player game would generate at least a decent chunk of revenue if it is a fun game to play in its own. Is CR planning and preparing for a rough future, or just throwing the dice with the intent of either making some miracle breakthrough or willingly run the company into the ground?
Of course they realize it. When also explains why, the past two schedules, even with two week delays across the board, still has the same 08/25/17 release date. There are sales going on, so they don't want to panic backer whales.
Yesterday's schedule (https://robertsspaceindustries.com/schedule-report) (diff (https://www.diffchecker.com/au6DOJ98)) even had entries that remaining untouched. e.g. ENTITY UPDATE COMPONENT SCHEDULER, VOLUMETRIC FOG, APOCALYPSE ARMS SCOURGE RAIL GUN
Nicholas over at SA, finally got his analysis up:
July 21st Schedule Report
Completed: 4
Delayed: 10
Remaining: 17 (was 21)
Needs bug-fixing: 13 (was 13)
Total In-progress: 30
Progress since July 14th: 4 out of 34 tasks.
Furthest ETA: Aug 10th (was Aug 10th)
COMPLETED
Quote
Item 2.0 Multi Function Displays
Rover and Dragonfly in Ships
StarMap App
Behring P4-AR - Legacy weapon re-work
DELAYED
Quote
Mission Givers - ETA is 28th July (was 14th July)
Reason: The estimate for the mission givers has been pushed back due to some animations requiring rework and newly discovered code dependencies.
Delamar / Levski - ETA is 28th July (was 14th July)
Reason: There is some remaining shop kiosk implementation to be completed for 3.0.0 resulting in a slight delay.
Inventory System Support - ETA is 27th July (was 20th July)
Reason: None given
Entity Owner Manager - ETA is 28th July (was 20th July)
Reason: None Given
Cargo Manifest App - ETA is 27th July (was 20th July)
Reason: Delayed due to complications while hooking up the search bar and transfer popup, but the feature is now code complete and requires some final hookup to Flash.[/b]
Ship Selector App & Insurance Claim - ETA is 3rd August (was 19th July)
Reason: Code is complete and now requires final hookup, but this has been delayed due to the team supporting hint system for designers. Also, the completion date for this feature has moved out in order to support the item 2.0 Multi-Function Displays and Inventory.[/b]
Inventory System - ETA is 27th July (was 20th July)
Reason: Also delayed due to complications while hooking up the search bar and transfer popup, but the feature is now code complete and requires some final hookup to Flash.[/b]
Mission System - ETA is 24th July
Reason: None given
Render to Texture - ETA is 10th August
Reason: None Given
RSI Aurora - ETA is 4th August (was 21st July)
Reason: Implementing the “springy” landing gear on ships, and bug fixing on other ships have delayed the delivery of the Aurora.
OPEN
Quote
- MISSION GIVERS
- DELAMAR / LEVSKI (STRETCH GOAL)
- INVENTORY SYSTEM SUPPORT
- ENTITY UPDATE COMPONENT SCHEDULER
- ENTITY OWNER MANAGER
- CHARACTER CUSTOMIZATION
- CARGO MANIFEST APP
- VEHICLE CUSTOMIZER APP
- SHIP SELECTOR APP & INSURANCE CLAIM
- INVENTORY SYSTEM
- COMMS SYSTEM UI
- MISSION SYSTEM
- RENDER TO TEXTURE
- VOLUMETRIC FOG (still scheduled to be completed on June 9th)
- APOCALYPSE ARMS SCOURGE RAIL GUN (still scheduled to be completed on June 9th)
- RSI AURORA
- GEMINI L86 PISTOL
MARKED COMPLETED BUT UNDERGOING BUG FIXING
Quote
- Item 2.0 Ship Conversion – Part 2
- Insurance
- Doors and Airlocks
- Cargo
- Kiosk Support
- Repair
- Hint System
- Personal Manager App
- Mission Manager App
- Physics Serialization
- Drake Dragonfly
- RSI Constellation Aquilla
- Misc Prospector
Ah yeah, I remember back when the schedule was first unveiled earlier this year. Good times.
(http://imgur.com/vczKETy.jpg)
Post by: Motto on July 22, 2017, 12:12:50 PM
Now CR has given himself a big salary and he added some family and friends too. How much of that behaviour (money) can he be held accountable for if this collapses? Overhere, as a manager you can be held legally accountable for mismanagement. How's that in the US of A?
Post by: Narrenbart on July 22, 2017, 12:16:09 PM
[...] Now CR has given himself a big salary and he added some family and friends too. How much of that behaviour (money) can he be held accountable for if this collapses? Overhere, as a manager you can be held legally accountable for mismanagement. How's that in the US of A?Held accountable by whom? Private refunds? With the net of corporations it will be almost impossible to held anybody accountable.
Post by: Motto on July 22, 2017, 12:29:53 PM
Post by: Narrenbart on July 22, 2017, 01:58:35 PM
[...] If CIG collapses, a legal investigation of some sort will be started I think. [...]Why?
Post by: Motto on July 22, 2017, 02:26:50 PM
I can't imagine that when CIG collapses, CR and family can walk away with of couple of years of salaries of say 500K and live out the rest of their lives. Maybe in the USA a bankruptcy is a simple thing, but overhere everything will be checked to see if the bankrupty is legit. So no taking out all of the cash a day before, selling all the properties first etc. And I can't see this ending in something where legally they have done nothing wrong so they can walk away with it. They're not that clever.
Post by: Narrenbart on July 22, 2017, 02:45:10 PM
They're not that clever.You are underestimating people with money.
Post by: Narrenbart on July 22, 2017, 02:53:05 PM
CR can just say the backers demanded it we tried and failed - story over.
I am very sad that you are living in a country where anybody is liable to their companies with personal money ... I guess you won't have that much companies over there.
Post by: Motto on July 22, 2017, 03:23:53 PM
But what I meant is that if your company (the corporate kind) goes bankrupt, the bankruptcy has to be handled by a court appointed lawyer and they have to investigate if the bankruptcy wasn't a fraud. So moving 1 mil. from the company to your private account and then filing for bankruptcy won't work. That 1 mil. will go back into the company. The other thing is that as a manager, you will be tested to see if you have conducted yourself in a proper business way. In the case of CIG, having all that backers money but spending it on a abnormal salary for yourself, buying stuff that has nothing to do with the business (say, CR bought a yacht in Monaco) and that sort of thing will make you accountable for the bankruptcy. In short, spending all the money and then claiming "sorry, I'm apparently a bad businessman with no talent for the trade" doesn't fly here.
Would this apply to CIG, one could argue that the top-salaries where way above normal and the abnormal part should therefore be paid back to CIG. If CR doesn't have that money anymore, he can sell all his assets and if that still isn't enough, the remaining debt will remain open to be paid later. So living a luxury live now on the backers money and then filing for bankruptcy because the funds dried up, no way he could pull that off.
Post by: Narrenbart on July 22, 2017, 04:01:51 PM
Please turn on your brain before writing.
Post by: Motto on July 22, 2017, 04:32:32 PM
Post by: nightfire on July 22, 2017, 05:27:20 PM
You can be personally responsible overhere, if you have a so called one-man business (or 2-man partnership). You are responsible for the business then even with your house, personal belongings etc. etc.None of which applies to CIG's current type of incorporation, as you are surely aware.
The other thing is that as a manager, you will be tested to see if you have conducted yourself in a proper business way. In the case of CIG, having all that backers money but spending it on a abnormal salary for yourselfI doubt that any notion that CR's salary, and even the bonuses, being "abnormal" would hold up without any challenge in court. Define "abnormal"… in relation to which "norm"? If you compare his salary (whatever the amount) with that of peers in the industry (e.g. entrepreneurs and owners of certain other software companies), I'm sure you would find lots of executives who pay themselves less, and some superstars of the business who earn significantly more – like, say, in the world of fund managers, musicians and lawyers. Prosecutors would choose the first peer group as reference, CR will no doubt argue that he belongs to the latter (and that his genius work merits no less than a salary comparable with Bill Gates or the Rolling Stones), and the outcome of the ensuing argument would be anyone's guess IMO.
…
Would this apply to CIG, one could argue that the top-salaries where way above normal and the abnormal part should therefore be paid back to CIG.
buying stuff that has nothing to do with the business (say, CR bought a yacht in Monaco) and that sort of thing will make you accountable for the bankruptcy.Unless his salary and bonus payments are indeed determined to be inappropriate (see above), whatever he does with his personal earnings is his own business and has nothing to do with company affairs.
In short, spending all the money and then claiming "sorry, I'm apparently a bad businessman with no talent for the trade" doesn't fly here.I'm not so sure. In hindsight, we all know better. Therefore, the litmus test applied in many jurisdictions focuses on whether the business decision was plausible at the time it was made, not whether it makes sense from a future point of view. It will be interesting to see what the court thinks about stuff like bank loans, forex transactions, money movement between shell companies and the setting up of such etc., but I don't see CR's spending personal funds on vacations in Monaco or wherever being relevant in this context as long as he has not been found guilty of siphoning said funds out of the company by illegal means.
In short: in my opinion, it will probably take 8 years of court trials and $155m+ in legal fees to establish any actual bad intent or wrongful conduct, no matter how delusional or evil his current business practices seem to be for us.
Post by: Narrenbart on July 22, 2017, 05:30:48 PM
CIG has 14 shell companies and is shifting money around the world.
If CIG has a liability to their customers, they have to refund their backers cause various reasons.
But if the money runs out the backers get nothing, especially not from CR private money.
If there is something illegal going on the state will fine the responsible persons but the backers will get nothing more out of it if the CIG money is gone.
Your fantasies are on par with "climbing out of a crate and rape other players" like this your stuff is not happening and not worth discussing.
Post by: Motto on July 23, 2017, 03:26:58 AM
I'm trying to find out if is really possible that CR and friends are really getting away with this fiasco. So mismanaging this project for half of mil. salary a year and after a couple of years just filing for bankruptcy and that's that. So long and thanks for the fish.
For one, there are 2 companies in Europe. When CIG collapses, both the UK and D local (fiscal) authorities will look into that. So being the GM in the UK makes you accountable for what happens in the UK. That the mother company is in the USA doesn't mean a thing. Secondly, I find it hard to believe that whatever CIG/CR is playing right now, has been setup in a way that makes them intouchable. A lot of money has been spend on paying wages, rent etc. so that's gone with fair reason. But inappropiatly spend money (I meant CR buying a yacht with company money btw, not his private money) could play a factor.
There is nothing wrong with spending the company money the way you see fit. Even our IRS thinks so (with some exceptions of course). However, this only applies as long as you are making a profit. If you go bankrupt, everything will be scrutinized to take care of the bankruptcy (and that can take years) and yes, hindsight will be applied then. And even the conduct of the topmanagers, board of directors etc. will be checked and even they can be held (personally) responsible. These rules here are made so that one doesn't go around like in the Wild Wild West and then taking off with the money. I know in the USA things are easier. Of course, that doesn't make it better :)
The other thing is that there might be legal things that are attached to the Kickstarter or pledging fundraising. If they violated laws the bankruptcy won't save them from that. So, maybe there is another angle.
When CIG collapses, (most of) the money will be gone. But I hate to think that CR and friends have had a luxery live for a couple a years and took out a lot of money and now can live happily ever after. I'd like to see that go to trial. But, as said by nightfire, it'll probably take years and end without a just outcome. And yes, it makes a difference if you fly to Monaco and rent a boat there from company money or your private money. However, usually these things are paid for with company money. I'm hoping they did.
I'm missing the thoughts and views of our Big Leader here, the man that has so much more background information he cannot share at the moment. You know, the one that was right. So Derek, jump in here would you please :)
Post by: dsmart on July 23, 2017, 07:03:37 AM
That's not what I mean. You can be personally responsible overhere, if you have a so called one-man business (or 2-man partnership). You are responsible for the business then even with your house, personal belongings etc. etc.
But what I meant is that if your company (the corporate kind) goes bankrupt, the bankruptcy has to be handled by a court appointed lawyer and they have to investigate if the bankruptcy wasn't a fraud. So moving 1 mil. from the company to your private account and then filing for bankruptcy won't work. That 1 mil. will go back into the company. The other thing is that as a manager, you will be tested to see if you have conducted yourself in a proper business way. In the case of CIG, having all that backers money but spending it on a abnormal salary for yourself, buying stuff that has nothing to do with the business (say, CR bought a yacht in Monaco) and that sort of thing will make you accountable for the bankruptcy. In short, spending all the money and then claiming "sorry, I'm apparently a bad businessman with no talent for the trade" doesn't fly here.
Would this apply to CIG, one could argue that the top-salaries where way above normal and the abnormal part should therefore be paid back to CIG. If CR doesn't have that money anymore, he can sell all his assets and if that still isn't enough, the remaining debt will remain open to be paid later. So living a luxury live now on the backers money and then filing for bankruptcy because the funds dried up, no way he could pull that off.
Correct. And that's where things like "piercing the corporate veil" to get to the individuals personally, comes into play.
As I've said before, I don't envision ANY scenario whereby this tanks and they get away with it. It's too big, too notorious, and there is a LOT at stake.
Once investigators (private, State, Fed) get involved, all they have to do is follow the money. That's ALWAYS where things tend to fall apart quickly.
Look at the recent Fyre festival fiasco. That one didn't even take in half of what Star Citizen has, and barely a month after it collapsed, the Feds were involved, and the CEO arrested for fraud and a bunch of other things.
Post by: helimoth on July 24, 2017, 01:19:54 AM
From the mind of Chris Roberts, acclaimed creator of Wing Commander and Freelancer, comes STAR CITIZEN. 100% crowd funded, Star Citizen aims to create a living, breathing science fiction universe with unparalleled immersion… and you’re invited to follow every step of development.
Blatantly untrue.
Post by: Serendipity on July 24, 2017, 04:05:07 AM
That's not what I mean. You can be personally responsible overhere, if you have a so called one-man business (or 2-man partnership). You are responsible for the business then even with your house, personal belongings etc. etc.
But what I meant is that if your company (the corporate kind) goes bankrupt, the bankruptcy has to be handled by a court appointed lawyer and they have to investigate if the bankruptcy wasn't a fraud. So moving 1 mil. from the company to your private account and then filing for bankruptcy won't work. That 1 mil. will go back into the company. The other thing is that as a manager, you will be tested to see if you have conducted yourself in a proper business way. In the case of CIG, having all that backers money but spending it on a abnormal salary for yourself, buying stuff that has nothing to do with the business (say, CR bought a yacht in Monaco) and that sort of thing will make you accountable for the bankruptcy. In short, spending all the money and then claiming "sorry, I'm apparently a bad businessman with no talent for the trade" doesn't fly here.
Would this apply to CIG, one could argue that the top-salaries where way above normal and the abnormal part should therefore be paid back to CIG. If CR doesn't have that money anymore, he can sell all his assets and if that still isn't enough, the remaining debt will remain open to be paid later. So living a luxury live now on the backers money and then filing for bankruptcy because the funds dried up, no way he could pull that off.
Correct. And that's where things like "piercing the corporate veil" to get to the individuals personally, comes into play.
As I've said before, I don't envision ANY scenario whereby this tanks and they get away with it. It's too big, too notorious, and there is a LOT at stake.
Once investigators (private, State, Fed) get involved, all they have to do is follow the money. That's ALWAYS where things tend to fall apart quickly.
Look at the recent Fyre festival fiasco. That one didn't even take in half of what Star Citizen has, and barely a month after it collapsed, the Feds were involved, and the CEO arrested for fraud and a bunch of other things.
Literally putting people's lives at stake whilst trapping them on an island with no food, water or other basic amenities isn't comparable with failing to create a video game to the extent you hoped. Come on now.
I also find your assumption of inevitability as disingenuous. There isn't a case to answer unless development stops. This hasn't and isn't going to happen, as they will cut staff, should the need actually arise, and get something out of the door.
You've been mentioning feds and government buildings for quite a long time now, as long as you've spouted their having no money left, have we passed the two year anniversary by now? How much longer can they continue under this intense federal investigation and having no money do you think?
How can they manage to run a company burning through 'x' million dollars a month with no money left for two years?
Your assertions are non sensical. Proven via time.
Post by: helimoth on July 24, 2017, 04:28:17 AM
You've been mentioning feds and government buildings for quite a long time now, as long as you've spouted their having no money left, have we passed the two year anniversary by now? How much longer can they continue under this intense federal investigation and having no money do you think?
How can they manage to run a company burning through 'x' million dollars a month with no money left for two years?
Your assertions are non sensical. Proven via time.
You realize they have just leveraged all of their asserts on a relatively small loan? Hardly the actions of a company flush with cash. They have unlimited troughs of cash you'd like us to believe - so why take out loans secured against everything they have?
It's been established time and time again; through warbonds, loans, non-stop ship sales and failure to meet any large deadline that CIG are cash-starved and have no way to survive their next 10 years (10 years is absolute minimum they will need) of development. It's clear, it's been established and right now you're operating on a trash-tier shill model to even argue against any of it.
Post by: Serendipity on July 24, 2017, 05:55:09 AM
You've been mentioning feds and government buildings for quite a long time now, as long as you've spouted their having no money left, have we passed the two year anniversary by now? How much longer can they continue under this intense federal investigation and having no money do you think?
How can they manage to run a company burning through 'x' million dollars a month with no money left for two years?
Your assertions are non sensical. Proven via time.
You realize they have just leveraged all of their asserts on a relatively small loan? Hardly the actions of a company flush with cash. They have unlimited troughs of cash you'd like us to believe - so why take out loans secured against everything they have?
It's been established time and time again; through warbonds, loans, non-stop ship sales and failure to meet any large deadline that CIG are cash-starved and have no way to survive their next 10 years (10 years is absolute minimum they will need) of development. It's clear, it's been established and right now you're operating on a trash-tier shill model to even argue against any of it.
They used the company assets to leverage the best possible interest rate, in fact that was how and why it makes sense to do it. They got a fraction above Bank of England base rates so the lender makes money and CIG get a net save. It's not rocket science. The larger and safer the collateral, the lower the rate the bank charges, less risk of not getting their money back. It's the same reason why those with a poor credit rating get bad interest rates on lending. It's more risky.
Those things you mentioned prove no such thing. Any company needs cash flow for reasons other than being about to collapse. Getting contracts for renting premises, for example, is impossible without demonstrable income streams.
I remember when it was 'guaranteed' CIG wouldn't last 2 to 3 months and that was well over 18 months ago. It was also claimed there wouldn't be any more citizencons after last year but there's one coming up quite soon. It's recently been claimed this will be their last Gamescom. I'm sensing a pattern. One of made up scaremongering.
How many more times will Derek claim they're out of money before you realise he doesn't have a damn clue how much money they have? He's been doing it for years. They're still going. Inferring your own reasons for business practices just shows your confirmation bias.
Post by: nightfire on July 24, 2017, 01:41:29 PM
I'm sensing a pattern. One of made up scaremongering.
How many more times will Derek claim they're out of money before you realise he doesn't have a damn clue how much money they have? He's been doing it for years. They're still going. Inferring your own reasons for business practices just shows your confirmation bias.
Scaremongering? Why would anyone be interested in scaremongering here? It's not like CIG is traded on the stock market and we're all sitting on huge short positions and are hell-bent on talking the stock down in order to rake in a pile of cash. It's quite the opposite: if CIG goes down, we all lose – either we lose pledged money, or a great game to buy and play, or both.
So I don't see who profits from scaremongering here. Ok, Derek's got a book to write which he can't publish if the game gets released and becomes a hit. But since that final release won't happen anytime soon (and I'm sure we all can agree on that), he'll either turn out to be right, or he'll have another decade or two of time to think about an alternative source of income until the game actually gets released. So I'm sure he's not too stressed out either.
As far as your "crying wolf for years" part of the argument goes, we see all the time how difficult it for experts and amateurs alike to forecast the precise timing of chaotic events like stock market crashes, elections, the weather and so on, even as all fundamentals and facts seem to point towards a particular development. Just because Derek may not succeed in predicting the exact year, month and day of CIG's demise either, that doesn't necessarily imply that his underlying research and reasoning is wrong.
Regarding "inferring your own reasons for business practices", you're guilty of the same crime. One side of the argument goes that CIG is cash-strapped and taking out the loan against huge collateral is a sign of desperation. But your own inference, that this is "business as usual" and merely an efficient move to save a buck or two in interest, is equally unproven at this point in time.
Post by: StanTheMan on July 24, 2017, 01:58:20 PM
You've been mentioning feds and government buildings for quite a long time now, as long as you've spouted their having no money left, have we passed the two year anniversary by now? How much longer can they continue under this intense federal investigation and having no money do you think?
How can they manage to run a company burning through 'x' million dollars a month with no money left for two years?
Your assertions are non sensical. Proven via time.
You realize they have just leveraged all of their asserts on a relatively small loan? Hardly the actions of a company flush with cash. They have unlimited troughs of cash you'd like us to believe - so why take out loans secured against everything they have?
It's been established time and time again; through warbonds, loans, non-stop ship sales and failure to meet any large deadline that CIG are cash-starved and have no way to survive their next 10 years (10 years is absolute minimum they will need) of development. It's clear, it's been established and right now you're operating on a trash-tier shill model to even argue against any of it.
They used the company assets to leverage the best possible interest rate, in fact that was how and why it makes sense to do it. They got a fraction above Bank of England base rates so the lender makes money and CIG get a net save. It's not rocket science. The larger and safer the collateral, the lower the rate the bank charges, less risk of not getting their money back. It's the same reason why those with a poor credit rating get bad interest rates on lending. It's more risky.
Those things you mentioned prove no such thing. Any company needs cash flow for reasons other than being about to collapse. Getting contracts for renting premises, for example, is impossible without demonstrable income streams.
I remember when it was 'guaranteed' CIG wouldn't last 2 to 3 months and that was well over 18 months ago. It was also claimed there wouldn't be any more citizencons after last year but there's one coming up quite soon. It's recently been claimed this will be their last Gamescom. I'm sensing a pattern. One of made up scaremongering.
How many more times will Derek claim they're out of money before you realise he doesn't have a damn clue how much money they have? He's been doing it for years. They're still going. Inferring your own reasons for business practices just shows your confirmation bias.
What do you think about the analysis of OldSchoolCmdr ?
https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/comments/68neg4/potential_backer_with_questions/dh8ww71/
Post by: Motto on July 24, 2017, 02:48:04 PM
But, CIG claims to have (had) 150 mil. The moment the money is (mostly) gone, CR can do 2 things:
- He can downsize (a lot). However, this would mean that development would slow down even further. So, he'd have to come up with some pretty good excuses to justify those 2 major things (no money and the slowdown). He'd prefer this route because it'll keep him on the right side of the promises made.
- He can let it all collapse and file for bankruptcy.
There are no other options. For what he now has got to show for, with all that money in all those years, nobody will invest another dime in CIG. My guess is that starting with major downsizing will be enough to make the income stream dry up pretty quick.
Post by: dsmart on July 24, 2017, 04:33:11 PM
That's not what I mean. You can be personally responsible overhere, if you have a so called one-man business (or 2-man partnership). You are responsible for the business then even with your house, personal belongings etc. etc.
But what I meant is that if your company (the corporate kind) goes bankrupt, the bankruptcy has to be handled by a court appointed lawyer and they have to investigate if the bankruptcy wasn't a fraud. So moving 1 mil. from the company to your private account and then filing for bankruptcy won't work. That 1 mil. will go back into the company. The other thing is that as a manager, you will be tested to see if you have conducted yourself in a proper business way. In the case of CIG, having all that backers money but spending it on a abnormal salary for yourself, buying stuff that has nothing to do with the business (say, CR bought a yacht in Monaco) and that sort of thing will make you accountable for the bankruptcy. In short, spending all the money and then claiming "sorry, I'm apparently a bad businessman with no talent for the trade" doesn't fly here.
Would this apply to CIG, one could argue that the top-salaries where way above normal and the abnormal part should therefore be paid back to CIG. If CR doesn't have that money anymore, he can sell all his assets and if that still isn't enough, the remaining debt will remain open to be paid later. So living a luxury live now on the backers money and then filing for bankruptcy because the funds dried up, no way he could pull that off.
Correct. And that's where things like "piercing the corporate veil" to get to the individuals personally, comes into play.
As I've said before, I don't envision ANY scenario whereby this tanks and they get away with it. It's too big, too notorious, and there is a LOT at stake.
Once investigators (private, State, Fed) get involved, all they have to do is follow the money. That's ALWAYS where things tend to fall apart quickly.
Look at the recent Fyre festival fiasco. That one didn't even take in half of what Star Citizen has, and barely a month after it collapsed, the Feds were involved, and the CEO arrested for fraud and a bunch of other things.
Literally putting people's lives at stake whilst trapping them on an island with no food, water or other basic amenities isn't comparable with failing to create a video game to the extent you hoped. Come on now.
I also find your assumption of inevitability as disingenuous. There isn't a case to answer unless development stops. This hasn't and isn't going to happen, as they will cut staff, should the need actually arise, and get something out of the door.
You've been mentioning feds and government buildings for quite a long time now, as long as you've spouted their having no money left, have we passed the two year anniversary by now? How much longer can they continue under this intense federal investigation and having no money do you think?
How can they manage to run a company burning through 'x' million dollars a month with no money left for two years?
Your assertions are non sensical. Proven via time.
Just going to quote this for preservation purposes only. I have no further comment.
Post by: dsmart on July 24, 2017, 04:37:55 PM
They used the company assets to leverage the best possible interest rate, in fact that was how and why it makes sense to do it.
FALSE. And you have NO supporting evidence of that.
Quote
They got a fraction above Bank of England base rates so the lender makes money and CIG get a net save.
FALSE. And you have NO supporting evidence of that.
Quote
The larger and safer the collateral, the lower the rate the bank charges, less risk of not getting their money back. It's the same reason why those with a poor credit rating get bad interest rates on lending. It's more risky.
FALSE. And you have NO supporting evidence of that.
Quote
Those things you mentioned prove no such thing. Any company needs cash flow for reasons other than being about to collapse. Getting contracts for renting premises, for example, is impossible without demonstrable income streams.
A company with a balance sheet that's a going concern, would NEVER need to leverage ALL of its assets in order to get a loan. A small loan at that.
Quote
I remember when it was 'guaranteed' CIG wouldn't last 2 to 3 months and that was well over 18 months ago.
This again? Do you even know how "analysis" works? It's dependent on data at hand and conditions at time of analysis. Look it up.
And if you guys weren't still giving them money, do you even think they would be around today? That's precisely how Sunk Cost Fallacy works.
Quote
It was also claimed there wouldn't be any more citizencons after last year but there's one coming up quite soon. It's recently been claimed this will be their last Gamescom. I'm sensing a pattern. One of made up scaremongering.
See above
Quote
How many more times will Derek claim they're out of money before you realise he doesn't have a damn clue how much money they have? He's been doing it for years. They're still going. Inferring your own reasons for business practices just shows your confirmation bias.
Nobody has a "damn clue" how much money they have. Not even the backers who DO have a right to know.
Post by: dsmart on July 24, 2017, 04:42:47 PM
Ok, Derek's got a book to write which he can't publish if the game gets released and becomes a hit. But since that final release won't happen anytime soon (and I'm sure we all can agree on that), he'll either turn out to be right, or he'll have another decade or two of time to think about an alternative source of income until the game actually gets released. So I'm sure he's not too stressed out either.
My book has nothing to do with the success or failure of the project. The book contains the many failings, and accurately documents all the promises, deceits, lies, and even things that aren't public. The ONLY reason why I am not publishing it until the final curtain, is because even though it's an e-book (with a coffee table print option), I won't want to go back and update it to match how things turned out. e.g. From what I know, I fully expect someone to go to jail over this project failing. Sure I can finish and publish my book after the collapse or "release", but I would very much like to add who went to jail, why, and how.
There is so much that isn't even public knowledge yet, that the few people who have read the manuscript, keep asking me why I don't just publish it now, and update it later. I don't want to do that because I want Chris Roberts to be the manufacturer the project's demise.
Post by: dsmart on July 24, 2017, 04:45:09 PM
What do you think about the analysis of OldSchoolCmdr ?
https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/comments/68neg4/potential_backer_with_questions/dh8ww71/
What is supposed to be at that link? I only see an argument with Jester86, the mod of /r/dereksmart
Post by: dsmart on July 24, 2017, 04:47:13 PM
We won't start Evocati this week (https://www.reddit.com/r/Starcitizen_Leaks/comments/6p9beq/will_leverett_we_wont_start_evocati_30_this_week/)
Quote
Good morning ETF!
We've entered the start of the Production Schedule's range for 3.0 Evocati testing. We won't start this week, and it's admittedly too early to know whether we'll be able to go next week. Most of you have been around long enough to know that's always a gametime decision anyway.
All the same, we have been working diligently on the inclusion/exclusion process since late last week to make sure the right files are in (and wrong files are kept out). This is a necessary process in building a new branch, and historically it has taken about three weeks once we've started this process to get a build to Evocati. Might be a bit longer considering the scope of 3.0, and we'll only find out as we go along.
There are quite a few blockers to remedy before we go to Evocati, such as completing UI, restoring readouts on many HUDs, crashes, etc. The good news is that many teams are in their final stretches of their feature tasks, with quite a few others already done, and we're in deep on bugfixing.
I'll make sure to start providing regular updates, but in the meantime, have a great weekend ETF!
Will "Soulcrusher" Leverett
Director of Player Relations
Avocado Enthusiast
(http://imgur.com/RYMkNEq.jpg)
Post by: Motto on July 24, 2017, 05:25:20 PM
Director of Player Relations :vince:
When two backers are getting into a relation, they need him to show the way. The way out, because they were to blind to do it in time...
Post by: nightfire on July 24, 2017, 09:23:44 PM
QuoteMost of you have been around long enough to know that's always a gametime decision anyway.
Yeah, like, since 2012 :cripes: No need to explain "gametime decisions" to us anymore :what:
Post by: nightfire on July 24, 2017, 09:29:08 PM
The book contains the many failings, and accurately documents all the promises, deceits, lies, and even things that aren't public. The ONLY reason why I am not publishing it until the final curtain, is because even though it's an e-book (with a coffee table print option)Given the sheer amount of what has happened, I’ll have to go with the e-book. Unless the print option also includes the cast concrete coffee table to match :laugh:
Post by: Serendipity on July 24, 2017, 11:15:22 PM
They used the company assets to leverage the best possible interest rate, in fact that was how and why it makes sense to do it.
FALSE. And you have NO supporting evidence of that.QuoteThey got a fraction above Bank of England base rates so the lender makes money and CIG get a net save.
FALSE. And you have NO supporting evidence of that.QuoteThe larger and safer the collateral, the lower the rate the bank charges, less risk of not getting their money back. It's the same reason why those with a poor credit rating get bad interest rates on lending. It's more risky.
FALSE. And you have NO supporting evidence of that.QuoteThose things you mentioned prove no such thing. Any company needs cash flow for reasons other than being about to collapse. Getting contracts for renting premises, for example, is impossible without demonstrable income streams.
A company with a balance sheet that's a going concern, would NEVER need to leverage ALL of its assets in order to get a loan. A small loan at that.QuoteI remember when it was 'guaranteed' CIG wouldn't last 2 to 3 months and that was well over 18 months ago.
This again? Do you even know how "analysis" works? It's dependent on data at hand and conditions at time of analysis. Look it up.
And if you guys weren't still giving them money, do you even think they would be around today? That's precisely how Sunk Cost Fallacy works.QuoteIt was also claimed there wouldn't be any more citizencons after last year but there's one coming up quite soon. It's recently been claimed this will be their last Gamescom. I'm sensing a pattern. One of made up scaremongering.
See aboveQuoteHow many more times will Derek claim they're out of money before you realise he doesn't have a damn clue how much money they have? He's been doing it for years. They're still going. Inferring your own reasons for business practices just shows your confirmation bias.
Nobody has a "damn clue" how much money they have. Not even the backers who DO have a right to know.
I'm sorry but it's not false and I do have evidence to support that.
"Generally, when a loan is secured by collateral, the risk of default by the borrower decreases. For example, a loan secured by a car typically has a lower interest rate than an unsecured loan, such as credit card debt. Also, the more valuable the collateral, the lower the risk."
From: https://www.minneapolisfed.org/publications/community-dividend/how-do-lenders-set-interest-rates-on-loans
Ortwin's forum post is evidence, you may not believe him but that's irrelevant to the fact it exists as evidence. They didn't 'need to' as you put it, it saved money though so they did it. Is it a bad thing to save money?
In respect to to your analysis of the project and your predictions of financial collapse I find it very strange that you failed to notice them getting 30+million dollars a year for the last few years in a row. That's some pretty damn poor analysis. Did you honestly think your tweet and blog storm would halt the funding in any appreciable way or did your 'analysis' fail to take into account historical levels of funding? Either way, embarrassing.
If you're not sure of your analysis then perhaps you shouldn't 'guarantee' things off of the back of them? You certainly sounded sure the collapse was imminent...2 years ago.
Backers are not entitled to know how much money they have left, that's a very strange thing to say. They are entitled to full financial disclosure should production of the game stop. This hasn't happened, so no financial disclosure.
"Accordingly, you agree that any unearned portion of your Pledge shall not be refundable until and unless RSI has ceased development and failed to deliver the relevant pledge items and/or the Game to you."
Now I'm fully aware they've changed the ToS, as is perfectly normal, over time but that part has stayed the same, minus the estimated delivery date. It's only ever been should development cease that those clauses kick in.
Let us see how long they last, let us see if your current predictions are better than your previous, somewhat laughable, attempts. I can stick around a while. It's fun here.
Post by: nightfire on July 25, 2017, 12:07:13 AM
Ortwin's forum post is evidence, you may not believe him but that's irrelevant to the fact it exists as evidence.
:lol: Seriously? Sorry, Ortwin’s post is not „evidence“; it’s merely a claim, an assertion. And calling the supposed existence of evidence a fact does not make the evidence itself a fact.
„Evidence“ would be Ortwin disclosing CIG's internal documents relating to the loan decision, such as the financial calculations which demonstrated possible savings by taking out a loan, as well as the actual loan and interest rate conditions offered by the banks they contacted for this matter. As long as we don’t get see hard facts like these, Ortwin’s word is worth nothing. Or, as the saying goes: „show, don’t tell“.
Post by: Motto on July 25, 2017, 12:49:20 AM
Post by: Serendipity on July 25, 2017, 02:17:45 AM
Where is the evidence that they indeed have collected over 150 mil. over the past years? The only figure made public is the counter on their website. Fact chance that one is correct.
Where else have they got the money to fund four studios and 300+ employees? People are getting paid. Where do you think the money for that has come from?
Ortwin's forum post is evidence, you may not believe him but that's irrelevant to the fact it exists as evidence.
:lol: Seriously? Sorry, Ortwin’s post is not „evidence“; it’s merely a claim, an assertion. And calling the supposed existence of evidence a fact does not make the evidence itself a fact.
„Evidence“ would be Ortwin disclosing CIG's internal documents relating to the loan decision, such as the financial calculations which demonstrated possible savings by taking out a loan, as well as the actual loan and interest rate conditions offered by the banks they contacted for this matter. As long as we don’t get see hard facts like these, Ortwin’s word is worth nothing. Or, as the saying goes: „show, don’t tell“.
So a publicly posted claim from the person who brokered the deal is somehow less believable than a totally unsupported proposition from a direct competitor who has stated he's trying 'burn them all down' before staging a 2 year hate and harassment campaign?
Ok, you've buttered your bread. Let's see which side ends up hitting the carpet.
Post by: helimoth on July 25, 2017, 02:22:27 AM
Ok, you've buttered your bread. Let's see which side ends up hitting the carpet.
Ah wait and see - the undeniable forte of the Star Citizen backer. You can wait and see all you want but I don't need to wait and I've easily seen enough. I guess I'm just less naive than you idk but that's not your fault.
Post by: Serendipity on July 25, 2017, 02:36:15 AM
Ok, you've buttered your bread. Let's see which side ends up hitting the carpet.
Ah wait and see - the undeniable forte of the Star Citizen backer. You can wait and see all you want but I don't need to wait and I've easily seen enough. I guess I'm just less naive than you idk but that's not your fault.
That's all we can do. They're either going to pull it off in a way that is perceived as success or they're not. I'm happy to wait. You're not. Fair enough. I'm not making stuff up to suit my narrative though. I'm no whale. I'm no idiot, blinded by emotions either. Que Sera Sera.
The evidence I see is a game getting made, slowly, but it's happening. It's a game I think I'd enjoy playing and I pre purchased knowing full well I might not get my dream game or any game. I've backed over 30 kick-started games. Some good, some bad, some gone forever. It's a risk I was happy to take.
I'm not going to try to tell you the game will be amazing or anything, I don't know what's going to happen and I won't make absolute statements about an unknown. Waiting is all we got. So I shall wait...and wait...and wait some more. I've got plenty of other games to play.
Post by: dsmart on July 25, 2017, 07:33:40 AM
I'm sorry but it's not false and I do have evidence to support that.
No you don't.
Quote
"Generally, when a loan is secured by collateral, the risk of default by the borrower decreases. For example, a loan secured by a car typically has a lower interest rate than an unsecured loan, such as credit card debt. Also, the more valuable the collateral, the lower the risk."
That's NOT evidence pertaining to the F42-UK loan.
Quote
Ortwin's forum post is evidence, you may not believe him but that's irrelevant to the fact it exists as evidence.
LOL!!! You can't be serious. That's NOT how evidence works.
That's a company statement, by an exec who has every reason to LIE to backers, as they have been doing since the start of this project.
Quote
In respect to to your analysis of the project and your predictions of financial collapse I find it very strange that you failed to notice them getting 30+million dollars a year for the last few years in a row. That's some pretty damn poor analysis. Did you honestly think your tweet and blog storm would halt the funding in any appreciable way or did your 'analysis' fail to take into account historical levels of funding? Either way, embarrassing.
You see, that's the mistake that you guys keep making. Nobody CARES about how much money lunatics stuck in Sunk Cost Fallacy, give them. All we care about is whether or not they have the capacity and capability to DELIVER the games promised. So far, there is NO EVIDENCE to support the argument that they DO.
In fact, speaking of analysis, back in July 2015 I said that there is no way in hell they could ever hope to develop and deliver the game as pitched, let alone for less than $150M, and without a capable engine.
So far, THREE of those have been proven to be true, as EVIDENCED by the fact that they have chopped of parts of what was promised, they haven't delivered 15% of what was promised, they are now at $155M with neither of the TWO games delivered, and they've switched engines.
Quote
If you're not sure of your analysis then perhaps you shouldn't 'guarantee' things off of the back of them? You certainly sounded sure the collapse was imminent...2 years ago.
Look up the word "analysis", then come back and let's have a discussion about how that works, and why the words "sure", "certainty" etc never appear in that definition or premise.
Quote
Backers are not entitled to know how much money they have left, that's a very strange thing to say. They are entitled to full financial disclosure should production of the game stop. This hasn't happened, so no financial disclosure.
Go back and read the ToS (all versions of it (http://dereksmart.com/forums/topic/star-citizen-tos/)).
Quote
Now I'm fully aware they've changed the ToS, as is perfectly normal,
There is NOTHING that's "perfectly normal" about changing a ToS which takes away rights that backers once had. Again, you can't be serious.
Quote
Let us see how long they last, let us see if your current predictions are better than your previous, somewhat laughable, attempts. I can stick around a while. It's fun here.
As I said before, we'll see. The good thing is that this isn't Reddit, where you guys can shout down people, down vote them etc. Everything posted here, is based on reasonable discussions and exchange; all of which we can call up at any time to show who was right, wrong etc.
I know - with unflinching certainty - that I am right about the fate of the project. It's only a matter of time. And if you guys weren't still funding it, anyone with common sense, and the capacity to use it, would know that it would have collapsed by now if a group of whales weren't still funding it. The most glaring evidence of that is as of this writing, at $155M in funding, neither game is delivered, though it was all fully funded and over-scoped back in Nov 2014, to the tune of $65M. And now it's 2.9 years later + $90M over budget. Yeah, because that's normal.
Post by: dsmart on July 25, 2017, 07:43:38 AM
Where is the evidence that they indeed have collected over 150 mil. over the past years? The only figure made public is the counter on their website. Fact chance that one is correct.
Yes that's another thing that they keep going on about. It's not evidence. It's data provided by CIG. A company that has EVERY reason to lie about it, for marketing purposes, and in order to show health in the project. Which is what keeps whales throwing money at it.
From the Google Sheet (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1tMAP0fg-AKScI3S3VjrDW3OaLO4zgBA1RSYoQOQoNSI/htmlview#) you can see what they "claim" to be making each month. It's not evidence. It's data pulled directly from CIG and which doesn't take into account subscriptions, loans, investment amounts, refunds. So, right off the bat, we know it's NOT accurate. And that's something that sources who would know, have said to me and others (media), time and time again.
And in fact, whale fatigue is already setting in. Take a look at the funding trends for 2016, compared to 2017, and it's easy to see that they are going to raise much less than the year before. Which is why they're now pulling out all the stops for 3.0 at GamesCom and CitizenCon. Even the metrics for the recent Nox and Cyclone sales, are not the blockbusters (https://robertsspaceindustries.com/funding-goals) they were supposed to be, even with 3.0 coming.
Post by: dsmart on July 25, 2017, 07:53:30 AM
Where else have they got the money to fund four studios and 300+ employees? People are getting paid. Where do you think the money for that has come from?
Obviously from whatever it is they are making each month, combined with whatever loans we don't know about. If you think that they need less than $3M per month to fund this project, when in fact the UK alone is using almost $25M of their yearly revenue, you're insane.
Quote
So a publicly posted claim from the person who brokered the deal is somehow less believable than a totally unsupported proposition from a direct competitor
Yes. And?
My position doesn't have to be "supported". The FACT is that, in the absence of EVIDENCE to support his claims, said claims are no more credible than mine, or anyone else's who has been saying that the loan reeked of desperation, and is akin to a payday loan.
Quote
who has stated he's trying 'burn them all down'
Actually, that's false. The "burn them down" is related to JPEGs of Shitizens who have been waging an Internet war of attrition against me. We even have a meme. Here, let me show it to you to jog your convenient memory.
(https://imgur.com/utGShoS.jpg)
Quote
before staging a 2 year hate and harassment campaign?
That's also patently false. As much as you guys would love to re-write history, you just can't. The sequence of events (http://www.dereksmart.org/2015/08/star-citizen-how-i-got-involved/) are backed up by actual FACTS, which are not open to interpretation, hyperbole, or confusion.
- In July 2015 I wrote a blog saying they had over-scoped the project, and doomed it to failure
- The media propagated the blog, much to the ire of CIG and it's Shitizen backers
- CIG closed my account & refunded it
- CIG issued a statement lying about why they did the above
- Shitizens embarked on a war of attrition by proxy obo of CIG
You see, that's how the words FACT and EVIDENCE come into play.
And YOU guys are the ones engaged in a "hate and harassment" campaign against people, especially me (you all have an entire sub-Reddit dedicated to harassing and attacking me), who are writing bad stuff about a fucking video game. Yet you're all completely shocked that the end result is that the Star Citizen community has the WORST rep thus far in gaming. And for those reasons, even those who have nothing invested in the project, would like nothing more than to see the project fail (it will, there is not debating this) so they can laugh at you guys.
https://twitter.com/dsmart/status/889863127264894977
Post by: Serendipity on July 25, 2017, 01:52:44 PM
Where else have they got the money to fund four studios and 300+ employees? People are getting paid. Where do you think the money for that has come from?
Obviously from whatever it is they are making each month, combined with whatever loans we don't know about. If you think that they need less than $3M per month to fund this project, when in fact the UK alone is using almost $25M of their yearly revenue, you're insane.QuoteSo a publicly posted claim from the person who brokered the deal is somehow less believable than a totally unsupported proposition from a direct competitor
Yes. And?
My position doesn't have to be "supported". The FACT is that, in the absence of EVIDENCE to support his claims, said claims are no more credible than mine, or anyone else's who has been saying that the loan reeked of desperation, and is akin to a payday loan.Quotewho has stated he's trying 'burn them all down'
Actually, that's false. The "burn them down" is related to JPEGs of Shitizens who have been waging an Internet war of attrition against me. We even have a meme. Here, let me show it to you to jog your convenient memory.
(https://imgur.com/utGShoS.jpg)Quotebefore staging a 2 year hate and harassment campaign?
That's also patently false. As much as you guys would love to re-write history, you just can't. The sequence of events (http://www.dereksmart.org/2015/08/star-citizen-how-i-got-involved/) are backed up by actual FACTS, which are not open to interpretation, hyperbole, or confusion.
- In July 2015 I wrote a blog saying they had over-scoped the project, and doomed it to failure
- The media propagated the blog, much to the ire of CIG and it's Shitizen backers
- CIG closed my account & refunded it
- CIG issued a statement lying about why they did the above
- Shitizens embarked on a war of attrition by proxy obo of CIG
You see, that's how the words FACT and EVIDENCE come into play.
And YOU guys are the ones engaged in a "hate and harassment" campaign against people, especially me (you all have an entire sub-Reddit dedicated to harassing and attacking me), who are writing bad stuff about a fucking video game. Yet you're all completely shocked that the end result is that the Star Citizen community has the WORST rep thus far in gaming. And for those reasons, even those who have nothing invested in the project, would like nothing more than to see the project fail (it will, there is not debating this) so they can laugh at you guys.
https://twitter.com/dsmart/status/889863127264894977
The guy questioned if they have the money they say they do. It's obvious they must be burning through a few million a month, you won't find me arguing that. It's obvious. But let's take your proposition that they have accumulated, what was it from your sources, 228 million in total, how many months does that give them?
If they haven't got that much but managed to invest well with their early, low overhead, HUGE profit, early couple of years, how many months is that? Can't know that one unfortunately.
About who's word I believe, well that's up to me.
I was not far off with my 'burn...' quote. But here is some evidence and a fact. https://archive.is/Co3Fz
(http://i.imgur.com/8QCQD74.jpg)
I just read your first blog. Around half of it was you talking about your own games, with comparisons. They refunded you for using their game to promote yours. Not using their platforms, it doesn't matter if you used the forum or whatever.
I don't appreciate you addressing me as some sort of group either, to be honest. I'm just a bloke. I'm not harrasing anyone. I'm not on twitter. Facebook is so my aging mother can see photos of her granddaughter and Star Citizen is just a video game.
Post by: dsmart on July 25, 2017, 02:25:46 PM
The guy questioned if they have the money they say they do. It's obvious they must be burning through a few million a month, you won't find me arguing that. It's obvious. But let's take your proposition that they have accumulated, what was it from your sources, 228 million in total, how many months does that give them?
If they haven't got that much but managed to invest well with their early, low overhead, HUGE profit, early couple of years, how many months is that? Can't know that one unfortunately.
That's not how math works. Just because they've raised a lot of money, doesn't mean they have a lot of it left. The yearly financials for F42-UK are evidence of that.
And you don't know anything about investments or lack thereof. You're just injecting wishful thinking to make yourself feel good about it, and to justify your argument. The fact is that they're not big enough to have money to spare in investments. Heck, they don't even own any of the buildings the studios are in. Instead, they are paying high rent in their respective locations.
Quote
About who's word I believe, well that's up to me.
Yeah, but nobody cares what you believe, you see. We all believe what we want to believe, and offer the opinions that we want.
Quote
I was not far off with my 'burn...' quote. But here is some evidence and a fact. https://archive.is/Co3Fz
No, you are not even close because you were misinterpreting it to mean that it was directed at CIG, when clearly it wasn't. I even posted a meme that uses the same text. The image you posted is also clearly indicative of this. But yet, here you are.
Quote
I just read your first blog. Around half of it was you talking about your own games, with comparisons.
Yes, and? Why would you ask a carpenter to write about brain surgery?
Quote
They refunded you for using their game to promote yours. Not using their platforms, it doesn't matter if you used the forum or whatever.
As hilarious and ludicrous as that sounds, you actually put that in writing.
What do you think would happen if each time someone posted a review of a product, the company went back and yanked their product from the customer? e.g. what do you think would happen if you bought a game on Steam, wrote a bad review, then the publisher invalidated your Steam key?
Why didn't Frontier cancel my account and refund my money? I did mention them in the same article as an example. Why didn't CryTek invalidate my CryEngine license (yes, like UE4, I have it - free, back before they even started distributing to the public) license for my writing about how it is inadequate for the game?
The notion that I can't write and use my own tech and products to explain my position as to WHY they couldn't possibly build that game - even LoD isn't even a competitor (shockingly, you missed that part) due to them being different games - is the most hilarious part of your argument. And that a company has every right to refund my money because I wrote a dissenting opinion, why using my own experiences to outline why I believe that I am right and that the project could NEVER be made a was pitched.
Quote
I don't appreciate you addressing me as some sort of group either, to be honest. I'm just a bloke. I'm not harrasing anyone. I'm not on twitter. Facebook is so my aging mother can see photos of her granddaughter and Star Citizen is just a video game.
I don't care if you were a one eyed Elf living in Ireland. Your writings exhibit all the traits of the guys parked on Reddit writing the same nonsensical drivel. Plus, you were the first to start throwing around "hate" and "harassment" accusations. Now you want to cry foul? Cry me a river.
Stick to discussions without the attack innuendos, and you won't have to deal with comparisons. A lot of people don't post here. From the metrics, more people read, rather than post. So it's not like there's so much crap that's going to get lost in translation. People come here for meaningful discussions, regardless of opinions. But in your case (and some others, long since banned), the longer it goes on for, the more you are challenged, the more likely you are to go off the deep end. And you're already teetering.
Post by: dsmart on July 25, 2017, 02:37:39 PM
Just watch, as soon as the sale is over, that 08/25 date which hasn't changed for two weeks now, will automagically change. And BOOM!! we're in Sept.
Post by: Serendipity on July 25, 2017, 03:31:21 PM
I thought you'd read the ToS/EULA.
Post by: Motto on July 25, 2017, 03:37:57 PM
I don't care if you were a one eyed Elf living in Ireland.
Oh, but I would. I'd pop over in a minute to see that :woop:
Post by: dsmart on July 25, 2017, 04:06:42 PM
They can close your account for any reason they like. They don't even need a reason. You don't own a thing other than a license to use digital assets in a video game that remain the property of CIG at all times.
I thought you'd read the ToS/EULA.
And who is disputing any of that? YOU are the one who brought up a reason that was nonsensical.
They probably didn't read their own ToS either? Otherwise, why did they feel the need to issue a press statement, giving a reason (a flimsy one at that) for refunding me?
Post by: dsmart on July 25, 2017, 06:24:33 PM
https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/comments/6pkluc/meta_rule_change_restricted_avocado_posts/
I wrote about that Evocati nonsense back in April 2016 "Star Citizen The Extinction Level Event (http://dereksmart.com/2016/04/star-citizen-the-ele/)"
Post by: Serendipity on July 26, 2017, 12:53:38 AM
They can close your account for any reason they like. They don't even need a reason. You don't own a thing other than a license to use digital assets in a video game that remain the property of CIG at all times.
I thought you'd read the ToS/EULA.
And who is disputing any of that? YOU are the one who brought up a reason that was nonsensical.
They probably didn't read their own ToS either? Otherwise, why did they feel the need to issue a press statement, giving a reason (a flimsy one at that) for refunding me?
Do you have a link to a press statement or are we talking about Ben's forum post where he explains their 'non sensical reason' as to why you were refunded?
Post by: Serendipity on July 26, 2017, 04:56:27 AM
The guy questioned if they have the money they say they do. It's obvious they must be burning through a few million a month, you won't find me arguing that. It's obvious. But let's take your proposition that they have accumulated, what was it from your sources, 228 million in total, how many months does that give them?
If they haven't got that much but managed to invest well with their early, low overhead, HUGE profit, early couple of years, how many months is that? Can't know that one unfortunately.
That's not how math works. Just because they've raised a lot of money, doesn't mean they have a lot of it left. The yearly financials for F42-UK are evidence of that.
And you don't know anything about investments or lack thereof. You're just injecting wishful thinking to make yourself feel good about it, and to justify your argument. The fact is that they're not big enough to have money to spare in investments. Heck, they don't even own any of the buildings the studios are in. Instead, they are paying high rent in their respective locations.QuoteAbout who's word I believe, well that's up to me.
Yeah, but nobody cares what you believe, you see. We all believe what we want to believe, and offer the opinions that we want.QuoteI was not far off with my 'burn...' quote. But here is some evidence and a fact. https://archive.is/Co3Fz
No, you are not even close because you were misinterpreting it to mean that it was directed at CIG, when clearly it wasn't. I even posted a meme that uses the same text. The image you posted is also clearly indicative of this. But yet, here you are.QuoteI just read your first blog. Around half of it was you talking about your own games, with comparisons.
Yes, and? Why would you ask a carpenter to write about brain surgery?QuoteThey refunded you for using their game to promote yours. Not using their platforms, it doesn't matter if you used the forum or whatever.
As hilarious and ludicrous as that sounds, you actually put that in writing.
What do you think would happen if each time someone posted a review of a product, the company went back and yanked their product from the customer? e.g. what do you think would happen if you bought a game on Steam, wrote a bad review, then the publisher invalidated your Steam key?
Why didn't Frontier cancel my account and refund my money? I did mention them in the same article as an example. Why didn't CryTek invalidate my CryEngine license (yes, like UE4, I have it - free, back before they even started distributing to the public) license for my writing about how it is inadequate for the game?
The notion that I can't write and use my own tech and products to explain my position as to WHY they couldn't possibly build that game - even LoD isn't even a competitor (shockingly, you missed that part) due to them being different games - is the most hilarious part of your argument. And that a company has every right to refund my money because I wrote a dissenting opinion, why using my own experiences to outline why I believe that I am right and that the project could NEVER be made a was pitched.QuoteI don't appreciate you addressing me as some sort of group either, to be honest. I'm just a bloke. I'm not harrasing anyone. I'm not on twitter. Facebook is so my aging mother can see photos of her granddaughter and Star Citizen is just a video game.
I don't care if you were a one eyed Elf living in Ireland. Your writings exhibit all the traits of the guys parked on Reddit writing the same nonsensical drivel. Plus, you were the first to start throwing around "hate" and "harassment" accusations. Now you want to cry foul? Cry me a river.
Stick to discussions without the attack innuendos, and you won't have to deal with comparisons. A lot of people don't post here. From the metrics, more people read, rather than post. So it's not like there's so much crap that's going to get lost in translation. People come here for meaningful discussions, regardless of opinions. But in your case (and some others, long since banned), the longer it goes on for, the more you are challenged, the more likely you are to go off the deep end. And you're already teetering.
That is how mathematics works. F42 financials are not evidence of having no money left. They sent money from the US to F42. How does sending money equate to evidence of having none? That makes no sense at all.
You have to accept overheads in the first 2 years were low yet they still brought in 50+million. This means millions and millions of dollars in profit. That money doesn't just disappear.
If nobody cares what I think, why are you replying with multi quotes? Obviously you care, even if it's a tiny bit.
If you threaten to burn jpegs whilst referring to assets created and owned by CIG then the quote does relate to CIG. To suggest otherwise is ridiculous.
I mentioned hate and harassment because that, in my own opinion, is what you've been engaged in. How many tweets a week does it take before it's harassment? How many cease and desist letters does it take before it's harassnent? How vile do your accusations have to be before it's hate? Tickle porn and being an escort for Sandi. Incompetence and being a bastard for Chris. Sounds pretty hateful to me.
I notice you haven't tagged them or the company on twitter since you got that letter. You used to tag them all the time. I wonder why that is.
Not sure what I'm teetering over but ok. I shall endeavour to stabilise myself.
Post by: Ghostmaker on July 26, 2017, 08:33:09 AM
A whole bunch of nattering between Serendipity and DSmart I'm not going to repost
I think you need to sit down for a minute and take a deep breath.
Allow me to quote something I wrote here, a while back: "If Derek Smart dropped dead tomorrow, it would not change the current status of CIG or SC."
There are ALWAYS going to be gadflies, and naysmiths, and critics. If you can't take a little bloody nose, go crawl back and hide under the bed. (/delancie)
The hard facts are that SC is behind schedule, it has taken in a ridiculous amount of money (comparable to an AAA title), and it has not been released. This is not up for question. It's indisputable.
And Chris Roberts's past is haunting him in this regard. People look back at Freelancer, and they wonder 'Was it just bad luck? Or does he know -- or worse, NOT know -- what he's doing?'.
And I liked Freelancer, mind you.
Post by: Serendipity on July 26, 2017, 10:24:46 AM
A whole bunch of nattering between Serendipity and DSmart I'm not going to repost
I think you need to sit down for a minute and take a deep breath.
Allow me to quote something I wrote here, a while back: "If Derek Smart dropped dead tomorrow, it would not change the current status of CIG or SC."
There are ALWAYS going to be gadflies, and naysmiths, and critics. If you can't take a little bloody nose, go crawl back and hide under the bed. (/delancie)
The hard facts are that SC is behind schedule, it has taken in a ridiculous amount of money (comparable to an AAA title), and it has not been released. This is not up for question. It's indisputable.
And Chris Roberts's past is haunting him in this regard. People look back at Freelancer, and they wonder 'Was it just bad luck? Or does he know -- or worse, NOT know -- what he's doing?'.
And I liked Freelancer, mind you.
What was envisaged as possible for the game changed. A lot. From POIs on planets visited via a cut scene to full planetary bodies PGd. The level of funding was as much a surprise to CIG as anyone. They said they'd use the money to make a better game. The delay from the original time frame projection is nothing more than CIG sticking to their word.
Of course they could have hidden the pledge counter and produced the original, comparatively simple game, pocketed tens of millions of dollars and walked off whistling. They didn't. They saw the funding going astronomical and decided to spend it all on making the best game they could.
This is why 'delays' don't bother me. It means they're taking their time to try and create something special. This, to me, is a good thing. I'd much, much rather have something great in a couple of years than something mediocre mow. YMMV of course.
Can they do it? We don't know. Derek doesn't know. I don't know. You don't know. Chris doesn't know. But they're trying to do it. I'll be cheering them on all the way with an objective eye watching and learning as much as I can.
Maybe they'll get more money from me, maybe they won't. Can't wait to play 3.0 though, it's an exciting step toward, what might just be, an excellent gaming experience.
Post by: Motto on July 26, 2017, 10:56:07 AM
Post by: Serendipity on July 26, 2017, 11:51:25 AM
Post by: Motto on July 26, 2017, 12:19:18 PM
I honestly believe they started with good intentions and then the money came flooding in. So they started thinking bigger. And even more money came flooding in. And then they went overboard. Totally megalomaniac. And fucked everything up. And then came the problems. Oops, we can't do this. We don't have the technique and the skills and even if we did, the topmanagement is totally incompetent, but of course, they don't think so. So now what? Well, start blatantly lying about everything so that the money keeps coming in. And that's all. As long we have enough money, all the problems will go away eventually.
Of course, that didn't work. So now the money stops coming in and the problems are still there. No game because no technique and no skills and no more hiding. Everything wrong slowly becomes more clear. Every action makes it more obvious that it all is now on the verge of collapsing. They cannot build this game. Not just as promised, but not at all. The only thing they will deliver from now on will be disappointment after disappointment. Thus losing backers, thus losing income, thus generating more disappointments et cetera.
They're not taking the time to creating something special. They can't create what they promised and they can't go back. To tell they can't do it will be the immediate end of it all so they have to keep on going. There won't be something great in a couple of years. If this is all they have to show for so far, how in earth will that improve with another couple of years? Magic will start to be generally available by mid 2018?
If you still believe that this project can have a positive outcome than you're f-up the head beyond rescue. How can you see all that is happening and still think that something good is going to come out of it all? Why so desperately trying to see something that's so obvious not there?
Post by: Serendipity on July 26, 2017, 12:29:37 PM
I don't think they're starved for cash and won't be for long enough to create something cool. You don't. Neither stance makes either of us messed up in the head, carnally or otherwise.
It's clichéd but true, wait and see.
Edit: Just to add I enjoy talking about Star Citizen, that's why I'm here. Still learning as much as possible from as many places as possible 😀
Post by: nightfire on July 26, 2017, 01:01:19 PM
Why would I joke? Maybe I'm just different to you.
You demonstrate an enormous amount of faith in CIG’s ability to deliver the game. No matter which event or possible outcome is being discussed, you appear to be giving CIG the benefit of the doubt. There seems to be virtually nothing which makes you doubt that CIG has good intentions and the best interests of their backers at heart. You consistently seem to consider statements, promises and reasoning from CIG management to be unquestionable and beyond doubt.
I find this level of faith in a third party to which you have nothing more than a customer relation astounding. Normally, I’d expect such faith and devotion only from true religious believers and members of a church. But CIG and its promised game are not supposed to be a religion or a cult! Oh, wait…
Post by: Serendipity on July 26, 2017, 02:38:43 PM
Why would I joke? Maybe I'm just different to you.
You demonstrate an enormous amount of faith in CIG’s ability to deliver the game. No matter which event or possible outcome is being discussed, you appear to be giving CIG the benefit of the doubt. There seems to be virtually nothing which makes you doubt that CIG has good intentions and the best interests of their backers at heart. You consistently seem to consider statements, promises and reasoning from CIG management to be unquestionable and beyond doubt.
I find this level of faith in a third party to which you have nothing more than a customer relation astounding. Normally, I’d expect such faith and devotion only from true religious believers and members of a church. But CIG and its promised game are not supposed to be a religion or a cult! Oh, wait…
I believe they'll deliver a game that I'll enjoy playing at some point in time. Probably two, but I don't have enough emotional attachment to become a cultist. I don't believe they're money laundering scumbags, deliberately lying with full knowledge of imminent collapse, nor do I think CR is the saviour of PC gaming and Star Citizen is undoubtedly going to be the greatest game of all time. I think there's a chance it'll be great and there's a chance it will never get released or be a disgraceful mess if it does.
Right now, considering funding is continuing at a decent pace, my belief they don't have current financial issues and that 3.0 dropping, in even a mildly impressive way, will see them spike up again, I'm coming down on the side of it ending up being a good gaming experience.
I'm not in a cult.
Post by: Motto on July 26, 2017, 03:10:06 PM
Post by: Serendipity on July 26, 2017, 03:41:05 PM
There is absolute no proof that funding is still at a steady pace. The only way to say that is when you believe their statscounter on their website. A counter that could be (well, be honest, most definitely is) fake. There is no way they actually still are getting these kinds of funding every day. Impossible.
Is there any proof that it's fake? Not analysis, analytics or guesswork, proof? Are they still paying wages and hiring? Yes. Are they still developing? Yup. Will they have more sales and generate more funding? Yessiree. Have there been propositions of financial collapse for years? Uh huh. Have they collapsed? Well nossir.
Do you believe Derek's sources that tell him they've taken in over 220 million in total? If you do, have they still got no money left?
For me, the chances of imminent financial collapse are small. You've drawn a different conclusion. Guess what. We'll have to wait and see won't we.
Post by: StanTheMan on July 26, 2017, 03:52:36 PM
Why would I joke? Maybe I'm just different to you.
You demonstrate an enormous amount of faith in CIG’s ability to deliver the game. No matter which event or possible outcome is being discussed, you appear to be giving CIG the benefit of the doubt. There seems to be virtually nothing which makes you doubt that CIG has good intentions and the best interests of their backers at heart. You consistently seem to consider statements, promises and reasoning from CIG management to be unquestionable and beyond doubt.
I find this level of faith in a third party to which you have nothing more than a customer relation astounding. Normally, I’d expect such faith and devotion only from true religious believers and members of a church. But CIG and its promised game are not supposed to be a religion or a cult! Oh, wait…
I believe they'll deliver a game that I'll enjoy playing at some point in time. Probably two, but I don't have enough emotional attachment to become a cultist. I don't believe they're money laundering scumbags, deliberately lying with full knowledge of imminent collapse, nor do I think CR is the saviour of PC gaming and Star Citizen is undoubtedly going to be the greatest game of all time. I think there's a chance it'll be great and there's a chance it will never get released or be a disgraceful mess if it does.
Right now, considering funding is continuing at a decent pace, my belief they don't have current financial issues and that 3.0 dropping, in even a mildly impressive way, will see them spike up again, I'm coming down on the side of it ending up being a good gaming experience.
I'm not in a cult.
Do you know any of the history of MMORPGs ?
Post by: concern on July 26, 2017, 04:57:38 PM
All they have to do is to disclose the reality of their situation: finances, development progress, road-map. Total transparency and it all disappears. Derek doesn't get to publish and they get the pleasure of rubbing his nose in it.
Why, I wonder, would they not do this? So simple.
Post by: nightfire on July 26, 2017, 09:39:09 PM
All they have to do is to disclose the reality of their situation: finances, development progress, road-map. Total transparency and it all disappears. Derek doesn't get to publish and they get the pleasure of rubbing his nose in it.
The problem with this approach is:
CIG’s claims of „reality of their situation" ≠ „reality“
(see: „promised scope vs. planned scope“, „published schedule vs. current delays“, „previous roadmaps“ vs. „revised roadmaps“ etc.)
The only way to make all controversy disappear in an instant is:
Actual delivery of the game(s) as promised.
And as Derek constantly mentions, 5 years and $155m later, with the game still in pre-alpha and 15% of the promised scope implemented, you’ve got to be asking questions whether many of us will still be alive to see this happen. That’s the actual issue about this game and its development.
Post by: Serendipity on July 27, 2017, 03:30:12 AM
Quote
Do you know any of the history of MMORPGs ?
Not really. I'm not a big gamer and I've never played an MMO before. Is Star Citizen going to be a role playing game? That implies levelling up and what not doesn't it? Not sure it applies and not sure of the relevance of other projects. If there's one thing we can all agree on it's that SC is it's own beast. It's development, scope and intense scrutiny is unlike anything that has come before, especially for an indie dev team, (as in no publisher).
In what way do you think the history of other MMOs applies to SC?
The hilarious elephant in the room here, is that CIG can make all the rumors and speculation disappear in an instant. They can pull the rug out from under Derek's feet and re-open the levels of funding that they previously enjoyed. It's really simple and it's all in their hands.
All they have to do is to disclose the reality of their situation: finances, development progress, road-map. Total transparency and it all disappears. Derek doesn't get to publish and they get the pleasure of rubbing his nose in it.
Why, I wonder, would they not do this? So simple.
Private companies don't disclose their financials in the main. The reason is so suppliers and/or competitors can't use the information against them. Hiking prices if they're flush with cash, for example.
They're being reasonably open with the dev schedule for 3.0, the report is available on the website with it's 'aggressive targets' and numerous caveats. I've heard there will be one for Squadron 42 at some point as well. They also produce multiple development videos and posts each and every week! What more can they do?
Have a watch of AtV tonight for details on development. Read the schedule or monthly reports. Ask the devs on the forums, twitter or reddit.
Of course we can't see absolutely everything, that would be daft with those around who like nothing more than to take a dump on the project but they show us a hell of a lot. More than anyone else that I know of. Much, much more.
Post by: Motto on July 27, 2017, 04:25:55 AM
And what more could they do? Well for a start, they could communicate honestly. You can't keep delaying every item on your to-do list but still maintain the same old enddate end of August. If I have 9 women I still can't deliver a baby next month.
They are waiting for Games Com end of August and until then they are feeding the hype and promising all kinds of stuff to keep everybody hyped and picking up their wallets. And shortly after Games Com, then everything falls apart, no updates, missed deadlines etc. But not too much because in October they have to pull the same stunt again for ShitizenCon. The period between Games Com and ShitizenCon will be crucial for CIG.
Post by: Serendipity on July 27, 2017, 04:40:16 AM
That may be true for the US, but overhere corporate companies are required to publish their P&L statement every year.
It's true for the EU, UK and US. CIG operates in these three areas only. None of which require private companies to publish accounts. Only those that trade on a stock exchange are required to do so.
And what more could they do? Well for a start, they could communicate honestly. You can't keep delaying every item on your to-do list but still maintain the same old enddate end of August. If I have 9 women I still can't deliver a baby next month.
They are waiting for Games Com end of August and until then they are feeding the hype and promising all kinds of stuff to keep everybody hyped and picking up their wallets. And shortly after Games Com, they everything falls apart, no updates, missed deadlines etc. But not too much because in October they have to pull the same stunt again for ShitizenCon. The period between Games Com and ShitizenCon will be crucial for CIG.
If you look at the schedule report, it clearly says the dates are intentionally aggressive and that its all liable to change. I believe they're being honest. Overly optimistic and aggressive to encourage speed but honest when you take into account the caveats they quite clearly have added. A date on the schedule report isn't a promise or set in stone. Why can't you, honestly, appreciate this simple fact. Its an aggressive schedule with caveats. To me, it's you not being honest by suggesting any date on there is a promise of delivery. Please read the caveat section. Thanks.
Of course an item can be delayed and it not change the possible release date. If something else was taking longer than it in the first place. Something originally scheduled for 10th august which is put back to the 24th won't effect the release if there was already something not being completed until the 24th already. It's pretty simple to be honest...
Showing what they've been working isn't a 'stunt', it's called marketing. They're producing a game and showing what they've got. Time frames don't bother me. Waiting I can do. I'm in no rush. What's the point in demanding something mediocre now when I can wait for something that might be awesome in time? I'd rather wait thank you.
Do you really need to use profanity? It sure as hell confirms your confirmation bias. Confirmception!
Post by: Motto on July 27, 2017, 04:58:51 AM
Only the big ones on the stockmarket with shareholders will do a pressconference etc. but all corporate companies need to file their financial statements. Pressconferences are required as well if you have information that could have a major impact on your stockprice (like expected big losses, take-over bids etc.).
If CIG was an European company, all their financial and business details (within the legally required specifications of course) would have been available from the start (after the first year of course). And it probably wouldn't have gotten out of hand as it has now.
And do you remember 3.0? Coming to you in all theaters December 19th. Of 2016! Agressive schedule with caveats my ass.
Oh, where did I use profanity? Apart from my behind just above.
Post by: Serendipity on July 27, 2017, 05:11:52 AM
No, you are wrong here. For instance, n The Netherlands all corparate companies (Ltd, PLC or as they are called BV or NV) have to file their annual financial report with the Chamber of Commerce. If they're on the stock market doesn't matter. And those annual reports can be retrieved by everybody. It is my understanding that this applies to most Western countries, so that's why we now (finally) have the figures from the UK. Germany probably has the same rules.
Only the big ones on the stockmarket with shareholders will do a pressconference etc. but all corporate companies need to file their financial statements. Pressconferences are required as well if you have information that could have a major impact on your stockprice (like expected big losses, take-over bids etc.).
If CIG was an European company, all their financial and business details (within the legally required specifications of course) would have been available from the start (after the first year of course). And it porbably wouldn't have gotten out of hand as it has now.
And do you remember 3.0? Coming to you in all theaters december 19th. Of 2016!
Oh, where did I use profanity?
Private companies and partnerships that do not trade on a stock exchange do not need to file financials. Ltd companies and PLC both trade shares on a stock exchange so do have to publish financial information. CIG does have European offices, UK x2 and Germany. They don't publish financial information because they don't have to as they don't trade on a stock exchange.
Annual accounts
Keeping annual accounts is not only a legal obligation, it enables you to monitor the health of your business by keeping track of receipts and expenses. Companies with limited liability doing business in the EU, whatever the size, have to prepare a set of financial statements and file it with the relevant national business register.
If you are self-employed or if your business is incorporated in a type with unlimited liability, your business is not regulated by EU rules: you should check the rules which have been decided by each Member State.
http://europa.eu/youreurope/business/start-grow/annual-accounts/index_en.htm
limited liability
nounBRITISH
the condition by which shareholders are legally responsible for the debts of a company only to the extent of the nominal value of their shares.
No shares being traded, unlimited liability, no financial information required.
To further clarify, the only reason traded companies need to publish financials is so people can decide if they want to buy or sell shares. How can investors know what to invest in if that information isn't available?
I remember Chris hoped to get 3.0 to us by the end of last year. He never promised, in fact he explicitly said, no promises. Game dev is hard. Chris is bad at timescales. Meh.
Is the word 'Shit' not a profanity? It appears you now use the 'word' 'Shitizen' without even noticing, further displaying your confirmation bias and skewed point of view.
Post by: Motto on July 27, 2017, 05:38:13 AM
And if you think Shitizens is a profanity because you consider shit a profanity, then we have different perceptions of profanity.
Profanity is socially offensive language,[1] which may also be called bad language, strong language, offensive language, coarse language, foul language, bad words, vulgar language, lewd language, choice words or expletives. The use of such language is called swearing, cursing or cussing.
I don't consider the (use of the) word shit a profanity.
Post by: Serendipity on July 27, 2017, 05:46:45 AM
The word 'shit' is most definitely a swear word. The Oxford dictionary has it listed as 'vulgar slang'. A swear word.
shit
NOUN
mass noun
vulgar slang
The Dutch version, 'stront', can be used neutrally. Thanks Wikipedia!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dutch_profanity
Post by: Motto on July 27, 2017, 06:34:17 AM
Here, The Dutch Chamber of Commerce (https://www.kvk.nl/inschrijven-en-wijzigen/deponeren/jaarrekening-deponeren/) regarding the annual financial statement (jaarrekening). I'll give the Google translation without edititing so you can see I didn't alter.
Deposit account
Depositing is legally required for many companies. This will make your company's financial information available to anyone interested in it. Businesses in business class micro and small can only deposit digitally.
Is my company obliged to deposit?
Bv's, NV's, cooperatives and mutual insurance companies are examples of legal forms that are obliged to deposit the financial statements. For sole proprietors, this obligation is not applicable.
How do I see if my annual accounts have been deposited?
Use your company or company name to verify that the annual accounts have been deposited. If your financial year is stated in the results, you will know that your financial statements have been processed. If you have registered online, your annual accounts will be immediately visible. For deposits by mail or email, please take into account a processing time of 5-10 business days. Unrecorded annual accounts are not published.
B.V. stands for Besloten Vennootschap that translates as Ltd.; private company; private limited company
N.V. stands for Naamloze Vennootschap that translates as PLC; public limited liability company
Post by: Serendipity on July 27, 2017, 06:40:02 AM
If it's unlimited liability then it's not applicable.
Anyway, it matters not. If they had to publish then they would, they haven't, ergo, they don't. What happens in other places around the world isn't important or relevant.
Post by: Motto on July 27, 2017, 06:47:23 AM
Sole proprietors has nothing to do with stock beeing traded. I can have a BV and be the single shareholder not on the stock market and I still have to deposit my "jaarrekening" simply because I have a BV. It's the BV that has the obligation btw, not the owner.
Are you really that dumb that you now are arguing about something I do know because of study and businesswise? Are you Dutch?
Post by: Serendipity on July 27, 2017, 07:22:02 AM
Quote
For sole proprietors, this obligation is not applicable means that you are a one-man company (like a freelancer, or modernly know as ZZP (Zelfstandig Zonder Personeel) meaning single without staff employed).
Sole proprietor has nothing to do with how many people you employ at all though, please don't try to sound like you know when you don't. Sole proprietor means a person who is the exclusive owner of a business, entitled to keep all profits after tax has been paid but liable for all losses. Not at all to do with number of employees. And you ask if I'm dumb...ha ha.
I'd recommend using this thing they call 'google' to check before you post total codswallop again. You do know because of study and businesswise, hahahaha. Fail of the day award goes to...
Post by: Serendipity on July 27, 2017, 07:32:38 AM
Looks nice. I'd imagine that's over LAN however.
https://twitter.com/sandigardiner/status/890297562678382592
10 people spotted. Still a long way to go before the first 'M' of MMO becomes a reality...
Post by: Motto on July 27, 2017, 08:03:04 AM
But I give up. There is just no reasoning with you.
Post by: Serendipity on July 27, 2017, 08:44:24 AM
Just for the record, I can have a B.V. and be the sole proprietor (meaning, I own all the companies shares and all those shares are not on the stockmarket) and then I still have to deliver my annual financial statement. No, this has nothing to do with this CIG, but don't blame me for telling lies when you're simply dead wrong.
But I give up. There is just no reasoning with you.
There's plenty of reasoning to be had with me but you kind of ruined your credibility by trying to tell me a sole proprietor doesn't have employees. I've been reading this document (https://www2.deloitte.com/content/dam/Deloitte/nl/Documents/audit/deloitte-nl-annual-accounts-2013.pdf) to try and understand. Not entirely sure but I think I'm still right. Anywhoo, it matters not. We should drop it like it's hot.
Post by: Motto on July 27, 2017, 08:53:40 AM
As said, I can have a B.V. and be the sole proprietor (meaning, I own all the companies shares regardless if they are on the stockmarket or not) and then I (the company) still have to deliver my annual financial statement.
Post by: dsmart on July 27, 2017, 08:59:32 AM
Back on topic, Sandi posted an interesting GIF on her twitter with a multiplayer performance test. Low gravity jumping and all.
Looks nice. I'd imagine that's over LAN however.
https://twitter.com/sandigardiner/status/890297562678382592
10 people spotted. Still a long way to go before the first 'M' of MMO becomes a reality...
Yeah it's nice they're still reading my Tweets and posts when I make of fun of their 8 client MMO.
Post by: GaryII on July 27, 2017, 12:28:16 PM
In one video we can hear about thousands player dream and 64 player limit at same time..
So in best scenario they can have similar "MMO" game as Elite, you can actually see max 64 players, but other "ghosts" will influence economy and other stuff in the background...
Post by: Serendipity on July 27, 2017, 02:05:10 PM
They've managed new things with Cryengine already so with the help of Amazon's technology who knows what will happen. I don't think Erin's hundreds of thousands of players will ever materialise but I don't think he'd say that if he didn't believe it. Maybe he meant hundreds or thousands. Maybe the new technology will break new ground. Here's to hoping.
Post by: StanTheMan on July 27, 2017, 05:25:44 PM
They have recently mentioned that what they're doing with the server meshes and what not has never been done before. Where it ends up will be interesting. Obviously not in game now but here's to hoping a decent amount of players can interact in time.
They've managed new things with Cryengine already so with the help of Amazon's technology who knows what will happen. I don't think Erin's hundreds of thousands of players will ever materialise but I don't think he'd say that if he didn't believe it. Maybe he meant hundreds or thousands. Maybe the new technology will break new ground. Here's to hoping.
"already ?"
lol.
Post by: Serendipity on July 28, 2017, 12:47:11 AM
Back on topic, Sandi posted an interesting GIF on her twitter with a multiplayer performance test. Low gravity jumping and all.
Looks nice. I'd imagine that's over LAN however.
https://twitter.com/sandigardiner/status/890297562678382592
10 people spotted. Still a long way to go before the first 'M' of MMO becomes a reality...
Yeah it's nice they're still reading my Tweets and posts when I make of fun of their 8 client MMO.
Hey, congratulations on maintaining at least some kind of relevance to the video game industry I guess. :shrug:
They have recently mentioned that what they're doing with the server meshes and what not has never been done before. Where it ends up will be interesting. Obviously not in game now but here's to hoping a decent amount of players can interact in time.
They've managed new things with Cryengine already so with the help of Amazon's technology who knows what will happen. I don't think Erin's hundreds of thousands of players will ever materialise but I don't think he'd say that if he didn't believe it. Maybe he meant hundreds or thousands. Maybe the new technology will break new ground. Here's to hoping.
"already ?"
lol.
Creating a cryengine map more than a few km in size is new. CIG have done that with 2.0. If there is any other cryengine game that has maps over 20km in size please let me know and I'll edit my post and thought process, cheers.
Post by: helimoth on July 28, 2017, 05:41:01 AM
Creating a cryengine map more than a few km in size is new. CIG have done that with 2.0. If there is any other cryengine game that has maps over 20km in size please let me know and I'll edit my post and thought process, cheers.
That's an interesting angle, to talk about things CIG have done. I reckon it would be a short-lived discussion though. Thing is this; I could open a pizzeria and create the biggest sausage and cheese pizza - bigger than anyone else. If it was half-baked, tasted terrible and cost far than most other pizzas, would anyone really care?
Post by: Serendipity on July 28, 2017, 07:04:10 AM
Creating a cryengine map more than a few km in size is new. CIG have done that with 2.0. If there is any other cryengine game that has maps over 20km in size please let me know and I'll edit my post and thought process, cheers.
That's an interesting angle, to talk about things CIG have done. I reckon it would be a short-lived discussion though. Thing is this; I could open a pizzeria and create the biggest sausage and cheese pizza - bigger than anyone else. If it was half-baked, tasted terrible and cost far than most other pizzas, would anyone really care?
If you were given over 155 million dollars in pre orders for your pizza then I'd say yeah, plenty of people care.
Post by: Motto on July 28, 2017, 07:18:04 AM
Never mind, I know your answer.
Post by: Serendipity on July 28, 2017, 07:53:02 AM
Silly analogies are silly though, it's not a pizza that they're making. Pizza is easy. Game dev is hard. Doing things never done before in gaming is harder again. I'm a patient person and don't mind waiting.
Edit: Don't forget they're making two pizzas as well.
Post by: kathiley on July 28, 2017, 01:48:36 PM
Creating a cryengine map more than a few km in size is new. CIG have done that with 2.0. If there is any other cryengine game that has maps over 20km in size please let me know and I'll edit my post and thought process, cheers.
Archeage. Open world MMO, released in 2013 with CryEngine 3.
Post by: Serendipity on July 28, 2017, 04:40:32 PM
Creating a cryengine map more than a few km in size is new. CIG have done that with 2.0. If there is any other cryengine game that has maps over 20km in size please let me know and I'll edit my post and thought process, cheers.
Archeage. Open world MMO, released in 2013 with CryEngine 3.
If you'd found one hundreds of km across then maybe, but come on. 20 ish does not come close to millions. Behave.
Post by: dsmart on July 28, 2017, 07:45:27 PM
Yeah, that slip is incorrect. Sources tell me that no way on this God's Earth is Sept even a realistic time frame. But you already knew this, because I TOTALLY CALLED IT three weeks ago. They're now doing the delays a little bit at a time to avoid panic. Good plan if you ask me.
Analysis, courtesy of Nicholas over on SA (https://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3800238&userid=0&perpage=40&pagenumber=1617#post474832618)
Diff: http://www.mergely.com/vMlIAFNy/?wl=1/
Schedule Report: https://robertsspaceindustries.com/schedule-report
Factual but not Truthful:
Quote
Completed: 3
Delayed: 7
Remaining: 14 (was 17)
Needs bug-fixing: 14 (was 14)
Total In-progress: 28 (was 30)
Furthest ETA: TBD or Aug 16th (was Aug 10th)
Excuses:
Quote
The following lists and charts show our progress towards releasing 3.0.0, with all remaining major tasks listed.
Tasks are either feature complete, or have an ETA for completion.
Some tasks may require further QA, bug-fixing and iteration.
Tasks that delay beyond our target dates might cause the release of 3.0.0 to be delayed, or might be excluded from 3.0.0 if appropriate to maintain the release date target. 3.0.0 work is separated into Subsections: Persistent Universe Content, FPS / Space Gameplay, Engineering, UI, AI, Graphics, Backend, Network, and Ships & Weapons.The 3.0.0 Procedural Planet update marks a major advance in the Star Citizen Persistent Universe.
This week, we entered the optimization, polish and bug fixing phase for the 3.0 feature set. As there have been so many features and content implemented, we’ve encountered some stability issues that we want to address before going to a wider test audience. The ongoing work on the new Patcher system (that will save you from having to completely re-download each build) and some new bugs with CopyBuild3 (our internal version of the patcher) have also slowed us down. Because of this we have pushed back the Evocati and subsequent date ranges to reflect the additional time needed to get Star Citizen Alpha 3.0 ready for prime time.
Completed:
Quote
- DELAMAR / LEVSKI - Shop kiosk implementation – Code complete
- ENTITY UPDATE COMPONENT SCHEDULER - Planned work for 3.0.0 is complete. This feature will extend past 3.0.0 as the work is ongoing, and continual improvements will be made in the run up to 3.0.0 release.
- CARGO MANIFEST APP - Bug fixing to follow.
Delayed:
Quote
- MISSION GIVERS - ETA is 11th August (was 28th July)
Reason: some code dependencies are still present and animation rework is still in progress
- ENTITY OWNER MANAGER - ETA is 11th August (was 28th July)
Reason: LA Engineering has identified further tasks needed to support persistence and netcode.
- CHARACTER CUSTOMIZATION - ETA is TBD (was 25th July)
Reason: Players will now be able to customize their characters’ heads, hair, eye color, and skin color. The team has been supporting other features, so the date for this has slipped. Production is reassessing and will post a specific projection next week.
- VEHICLE CUSTOMIZER APP - ETA is 9th August (was 27th July)
Reason: Additional code support to fix issues with the Mission Manager, Hints, and the Ship Selector have delayed this feature slightly.
- COMMS SYSTEM UI - ETA is 16th August (was 25th July)
Reason: Delayed due to team being redirected to help resolve blockers on other issues.
- MISSION SYSTEM - ETA is 9th August (was 24th July)
- GEMINI L86 PISTOL - ETA is 2nd August (was 28th July)
Reason: The latest review of this weapon highlighted issues that need to be fixed before it is signed off as complete.
Remaining Open:
Quote
- MISSION GIVERS
- INVENTORY SYSTEM SUPPORT
- ENTITY OWNER MANAGER
- CHARACTER CUSTOMIZATION
- VEHICLE CUSTOMIZER APP
- SHIP SELECTOR APP & INSURANCE CLAIM
- INVENTORY SYSTEM
- COMMS SYSTEM UI
- MISSION SYSTEM
- RENDER TO TEXTURE
- VOLUMETRIC FOG (still scheduled to be completed on June 9th)
- APOCALYPSE ARMS SCOURGE RAIL GUN (still scheduled to be completed on June 9th)
- RSI AURORA
- GEMINI L86 PISTOL
Needs bug fixing:
Quote
- Item 2.0 Ship Conversion – Part 2
- Insurance
- Doors and Airlocks
- Cargo
- Cargo Manifest App
- Kiosk Support
- Repair
- Hint System
- Personal Manager App
- Mission Manager App
- Physics Serialization
- Drake Dragonfly
- RSI Constellation Aquilla
- Misc Prospector
Meanwhile over there... (https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/comments/6q9wgo/300_and_global_progress_watch_update_20170728/)
Quote
The schedule's analysis is becoming harder and harder to do each week. As you probably know, the schedule only contains "features" tasks, leaving out everything around like bugfixing, release preparation, and general polishing. As tasks get completed and CIG moves to the final phases of preparation for the release, we have less and less information on what's going on, and what's causing delays.
We'll start this week with the Mission Givers, which are under an animation rework. Also, some code dependencies are missing. All that pushes them by 2 weeks.
Next is the inventory system gamecode engineering. The schedule hasn't been updated on that, so we don't know if it's completed or not.
The Entity Owner Manager, which we've learned a bit in this week's ATV (check out the persistence segment), is also being delayed by 2 weeks.
Next is UI. We start with inventory, which as for the gamecode part hasn't been updated. The Character Customisation has been update though, but all CIG says is that they don't have an ETA anymore as developers are supporting other tasks. We then have the Vehicle Customiser App, which is delayed by 2 weeks, and the Comms System UI, which is delayed by 3 weeks. Both delays are due to developers supporting other tasks.
In the AI department, the Mission System is still under work, with an additionnal 2 weeks required.
Finally, the L86 Pistol Rework is delayed by 5 days, as the quality review discovered some elements that needed improvements.
Post by: EmmettLazlo on July 29, 2017, 01:19:51 AM
Creating a cryengine map more than a few km in size is new. CIG have done that with 2.0. If there is any other cryengine game that has maps over 20km in size please let me know and I'll edit my post and thought process, cheers.
Archeage. Open world MMO, released in 2013 with CryEngine 3.
If you'd found one hundreds of km across then maybe, but come on. 20 ish does not come close to millions. Behave.
Registered just to say perhaps a touchè wouldn't have gone amiss in your reply. Kathileys answer met your challenge beautifully.
Post by: Motto on July 29, 2017, 03:08:14 AM
They mastered "Ponzi Scheme" but clearly need summerschool for "Scheduling and Planning for Game Development".
So, nothing to show for at Games Com for the 3.0 release. How are they gonna explain that? Or just swipe it under the rug with a new demo clip?
Post by: kathiley on July 29, 2017, 04:12:35 AM
Creating a cryengine map more than a few km in size is new. CIG have done that with 2.0. If there is any other cryengine game that has maps over 20km in size please let me know and I'll edit my post and thought process, cheers.
Archeage. Open world MMO, released in 2013 with CryEngine 3.
If you'd found one hundreds of km across then maybe, but come on. 20 ish does not come close to millions. Behave.
I just wanted to see this kind of response. That's all i wanted. Thank you :smuggo:
Post by: Serendipity on July 29, 2017, 04:16:07 AM
Creating a cryengine map more than a few km in size is new. CIG have done that with 2.0. If there is any other cryengine game that has maps over 20km in size please let me know and I'll edit my post and thought process, cheers.
Archeage. Open world MMO, released in 2013 with CryEngine 3.
If you'd found one hundreds of km across then maybe, but come on. 20 ish does not come close to millions. Behave.
Registered just to say perhaps a touchè wouldn't have gone amiss in your reply. Kathileys answer met your challenge beautifully.
Ai, true enough. My bad for not researching before challenging. My point remains valid though. A cryengine map millions of km access is still new.
CIG is right on schedule with 3.0 for not making Shitizencon too :D
They mastered "Ponzi Scheme" but clearly need summerschool for "Scheduling and Planning for Game Development".
So, nothing to show for at Games Com for the 3.0 release. How are they gonna explain that? Or just swipe it under the rug with a new demo clip?
There will be plenty of new stuff to show off, including perhaps a Squadron demo missing from last year.
In what way does Ponzi apply? Which new investors are having their money given to which old investors?
Post by: Serendipity on July 29, 2017, 04:17:32 AM
Creating a cryengine map more than a few km in size is new. CIG have done that with 2.0. If there is any other cryengine game that has maps over 20km in size please let me know and I'll edit my post and thought process, cheers.
Archeage. Open world MMO, released in 2013 with CryEngine 3.
If you'd found one hundreds of km across then maybe, but come on. 20 ish does not come close to millions. Behave.
I just wanted to see this kind of response. That's all i wanted. Thank you :smuggo:
You're welcome. I stand by millions of km being new.
Post by: kathiley on July 29, 2017, 04:23:43 AM
You're welcome. I stand by millions of km being new.
Nobody said anything else (at least for CryEngine).
But you show perfectly, that you are not able to discuss in a neutral way.
You ask a specific question. You get a valid neutral answer. And your only reaction is: Deny the answer.
Think about it.
Post by: Serendipity on July 29, 2017, 04:57:22 AM
I was wrong, (assuming that map has no loading between zones), and I got my information from the Cryengine forums where a dev answered a question with the answer of a single map being a maximum of 13km if memory serves. That might have been specific to a different version perhaps, I don't know.
Anyway, my challenge was answered but my point remains. 64 bit positioning and millions of km is new in cryengine.
Post by: dsmart on July 29, 2017, 05:39:47 AM
CIG is right on schedule with 3.0 for not making Shitizencon too :D
They mastered "Ponzi Scheme" but clearly need summerschool for "Scheduling and Planning for Game Development".
So, nothing to show for at Games Com for the 3.0 release. How are they gonna explain that? Or just swipe it under the rug with a new demo clip?
Oh just wait. Sources have told me EXACTLY what they're going to be doing. On Aug 22nd, I am going to be releasing a "scoop (http://dereksmart.com/forums/topic/sc-scoop/)" article with the plan. And this time, they won't have time to change it on me.
Last year when I kept saying that GamesCom and CitizenCon were just showcasing R&D demos which no basis on the game client, some people thought I was just saying shit. Even when I said the 3.0 release schedule and Roberts' claims to a Dec 19th release were bullshit, some were skeptical. Well, here we are. 12 MONTHS later.
Post by: Motto on July 29, 2017, 05:51:05 AM
But I figured it out:
build bugfix - deliver bugfix - test bugfix - find other bugs - replan the schedule to fix bugs - build bugfix - deliver bugfix - test bugfix - find other bugs - replan the schedule to fix bugs - build bugfix - deliver bugfix - test bugfix - find other bugs - replan the schedule to fix bugs - build bugfix - deliver bugfix - test bugfix - find other bugs - replan the schedule to fix bugs - build bugfix - deliver bugfix - test bugfix - find other bugs - replan the schedule to fix bugs etc. etc. etc.
The only thing not sequential in this is the "ask for more money routine". They have too much options for that to fit it in, so they keep that one running seperately on a single permanent schedule.
Post by: dsmart on July 29, 2017, 05:54:39 AM
Ai, true enough. My bad for not researching before challenging. My point remains valid though. A cryengine map millions of km access is still new.
The "map" isn't "millions of km" across. It's not a "contiguous" piece. I've written about that before (http://www.dereksmart.org/forums/topic/star-citizen-year-four/#post-1812), back in Nov 2015. You should maybe read it in order to get a clear idea of how tech actually works. What makes you think that - ANY - game engine editor could load a world map that is "millions" of km across? And what evidence have you seen anywhere, let alone from CIG, to suggest that?
There will be plenty of new stuff to show off, including perhaps a Squadron demo missing from last year.
And you know this how exactly?
My sources have said that they may release a video or short scripted play through of a SQ42 segment, a game that's already +3 years late and has no internal release date.
In what way does Ponzi apply? Which new investors are having their money given to which old investors?
Oh, you think Ponzi only implies investors? Dude, no.
Raising money from new backers, in order to pay off refunding backers, is the very concept of a Ponzi scheme. That's how that actually works. And like an investment Ponzi scheme, once they can no longer refund backers, the whole thing falls apart.
Post by: dsmart on July 29, 2017, 05:58:04 AM
Quote
The schedule's analysis is becoming harder and harder to do each week. As you probably know, the schedule only contains "features" tasks, leaving out everything around like bugfixing, release preparation, and general polishing. As tasks get completed and CIG moves to the final phases of preparation for the release, we have less and less information on what's going on, and what's causing delays.
We'll start this week with the Mission Givers, which are under an animation rework. Also, some code dependencies are missing. All that pushes them by 2 weeks.
Next is the inventory system gamecode engineering. The schedule hasn't been updated on that, so we don't know if it's completed or not.
The Entity Owner Manager, which we've learned a bit in this week's ATV (check out the persistence segment), is also being delayed by 2 weeks.
Next is UI. We start with inventory, which as for the gamecode part hasn't been updated. The Character Customisation has been update though, but all CIG says is that they don't have an ETA anymore as developers are supporting other tasks. We then have the Vehicle Customiser App, which is delayed by 2 weeks, and the Comms System UI, which is delayed by 3 weeks. Both delays are due to developers supporting other tasks.
In the AI department, the Mission System is still under work, with an additionnal 2 weeks required.
Finally, the L86 Pistol Rework is delayed by 5 days, as the quality review discovered some elements that needed improvements.
It's almost as if... (https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/comments/6q9wgo/300_and_global_progress_watch_update_20170728/dkvp7q7/)
Quote
There seems to be an interesting pattern:
- Week A: delay critical tasks, add a few fluff tasks, do not delay overall launch prediction. Sales are usually held during these weeks.
- Week B: close a few fluff tasks to convey an image of progress, delay the overall launch prediction for two weeks
This can go on a very long time and keep backers happy, as we have now seen with already more than doubled time from 3.0 June prediction.
But people are starting to notice.
Post by: Serendipity on July 29, 2017, 07:31:47 AM
7 hours of cruising without any breaks in gameplay. It's not millions but it's 3 orders of magnitude over 20 which fits the 64 bit positional change. There's no reason it couldn't be done across the whole map. There is no selected end point. There is no break or seam. I've done it myself to a lesser extent access significantly large volumes of space. The entities aren't loaded all together but millions of miles of empty space exist as a single, traversable map. It's a fact. Go load up the game and try it for yourself. Why you try to argue something that is available in game hasn't been done, is beyond me. It's there. Go try it for yourself.
Here's a video showing them building a star system or two as a single map which is millions of km across.
I don't 'know' they have something to show but it's a fair assumption. I've heard rumours of a Squadron demo being shown. It seems you agree, as do your sources. Strange thing to question me about when you already know the same. Lateness doesn't bother me. Think I've mentioned that already.
Just how many refunds do you think they're giving out? They made well over a million dollars in the last three weeks. I think just that alone should cover every single refund ever given a few times over. To suggest they need to hand over the most recent purchases to refunds is laughable.
Post by: dsmart on July 29, 2017, 09:00:59 AM
7 hours of cruising without any breaks in gameplay. It's not millions but it's 3 orders of magnitude over 20 which fits the 64 bit positional change. There's no reason it couldn't be done across the whole map. There is no selected end point. There is no break or seam. I've done it myself to a lesser extent access significantly large volumes of space. The entities aren't loaded all together but millions of miles of empty space exist as a single, traversable map. It's a fact. Go load up the game and try it for yourself. Why you try to argue something that is available in game hasn't been done, is beyond me. It's there. Go try it for yourself.
Oh you're so cute. Again, please go and learn how scenes are generated, loaded, and updated. Then come back and lets have a chat.
ps: Your videos are not proof of any claim you've made. Instead, you're engaging in the usual deflection. We talk about one thing, you bring up something else, while ignoring the original thing.
Post by: BigM on July 29, 2017, 10:05:02 AM
The only concept after all these years we should be agreeing on is the only true statement about this game, Derek was Right! Yet it now should be Derek IS Right!
Chris Roberts the destroyer of developers/Kickstarters/crowd funding!
Really how delusional do you have to be to actually not see the truth?
Post by: N0mad on July 29, 2017, 10:19:15 AM
The point about the Map size is that CIG aren't doing anything with CryEngine which isn't already commonplace in many other game engines.
The makers of Kerbal Space Program did a good talk about how they've achieved huge maps in Unity: Skip to 4:20
Hope this helps !
Post by: dsmart on July 29, 2017, 10:20:25 AM
I've been following this thread for a while and thought I might chip in.
The point about the Map size is that CIG aren't doing anything with CryEngine which isn't already commonplace in many other game engines.
The makers of Kerbal Space Program did a good talk about how they've achieved huge maps in Unity: Skip to 4:20
Hope this helps !
Trust me, those of us who have actually developed this stuff, have written about it numerous times.
Post by: Motto on July 29, 2017, 10:23:42 AM
Post by: BigM on July 29, 2017, 12:19:33 PM
Clearly they didn't know anything about game development.
They have been really really good at scamming.
Post by: Motto on July 29, 2017, 12:59:13 PM
Post by: Serendipity on July 29, 2017, 04:35:11 PM
7 hours of cruising without any breaks in gameplay. It's not millions but it's 3 orders of magnitude over 20 which fits the 64 bit positional change. There's no reason it couldn't be done across the whole map. There is no selected end point. There is no break or seam. I've done it myself to a lesser extent access significantly large volumes of space. The entities aren't loaded all together but millions of miles of empty space exist as a single, traversable map. It's a fact. Go load up the game and try it for yourself. Why you try to argue something that is available in game hasn't been done, is beyond me. It's there. Go try it for yourself.
Oh you're so cute. Again, please go and learn how scenes are generated, loaded, and updated. Then come back and lets have a chat.
ps: Your videos are not proof of any claim you've made. Instead, you're engaging in the usual deflection. We talk about one thing, you bring up something else, while ignoring the original thing.
I'm not trying to deflect anything. I'm trying to understand. How about this video where you can see Yela from around 3 minutes as a couple of pixels and it slowly getting bigger as the player gets closer? Can you explain how this doesn't show a single map being traversed without any loading or cut scenes or anything other than an obviously mind bogglingly huge, single map that is being travelled through in real time?
Your explanation does not fit this video. It just doesn't. You can see the distant object start off as a couple of pixels that slowly becomes bigger as they get closer. How you explain it just doesn't fit this evidence, which is easily repeatable for anyone who has played the game. There's no zones or loading or anything. Just a ship moving through tens of thousands of kilometres of 64 bit positional space.
Also, stop flirting with me you tease, I'm not cute. 😝
Post by: StanTheMan on July 29, 2017, 06:52:14 PM
The wait is Tantric for some Shitizens but will it make CIG enough $ to keep going well into 2018 ?
Post by: N0mad on July 30, 2017, 01:38:30 AM
Quote
There's no zones or loading or anything. Just a ship moving through tens of thousands of kilometres of 64 bit positional space.
You talk about the map size in Star Citizen as though they've managed to do something no one else has ever achieved before. This plainly isn't true, Elite Dangerous (although I haven't played it) manages to pull off huge star systems, SpaceEngine (free download) allows you to visit planets in other Galaxies, and upcoming titles such as Duel Universe are just as ambitious.
Regarding 64 bit positioning. Again this is nothing new, nor is it especially hard to do - just change all the float values to double. Space Engineers have managed to pull it off http://blog.marekrosa.org/2014/12/space-engineers-super-large-worlds_17.html (http://blog.marekrosa.org/2014/12/space-engineers-super-large-worlds_17.html) (note - that was 2014). Although, using 64 bit positioning may explain why the performance is so poor and the physics is a so jittery in Star Citizen (same problems in Space Engineers).
As far as I can tell, Star Citizen isn't doing anything technically different to many other games. There is no new technology, it's just standard industry stuff but they refer to it using different terms to make it sound like something they've invented. eg Subsumption technology for the AI - which as far as I can tell is just a fancy term for a Behaviour Tree - which they still can't seem to make work - by all means correct me if I'm wrong on this.
The only thing Star Citizen does differently to other games is their constant drive for FIDELITY - creating a fluid physics simulation for drinks, creating a whole system to deal with picking up objects, rendering every little bolt and fixture in high detail. The reason why no other game does this is because it's a performance hog and detracts from the actual gameplay. In that regard, Star Citizen seems to be a giant art project rather than a game, but that's just my opinion!
Post by: Serendipity on July 30, 2017, 01:58:48 AM
QuoteThere's no zones or loading or anything. Just a ship moving through tens of thousands of kilometres of 64 bit positional space.
You talk about the map size in Star Citizen as though they've managed to do something no one else has ever achieved before. This plainly isn't true, Elite Dangerous (although I haven't played it) manages to pull off huge star systems, SpaceEngine (free download) allows you to visit planets in other Galaxies, and upcoming titles such as Duel Universe are just as ambitious.
Regarding 64 bit positioning. Again this is nothing new, nor is it especially hard to do - just change all the float values to double. Space Engineers have managed to pull it off http://blog.marekrosa.org/2014/12/space-engineers-super-large-worlds_17.html (http://blog.marekrosa.org/2014/12/space-engineers-super-large-worlds_17.html) (note - that was 2014). Although, using 64 bit positioning may explain why the performance is so poor and the physics is a so jittery in Star Citizen (same problems in Space Engineers).
As far as I can tell, Star Citizen isn't doing anything technically different to many other games. There is no new technology, it's just standard industry stuff but they refer to it using different terms to make it sound like something they've invented. eg Subsumption technology for the AI - which as far as I can tell is just a fancy term for a Behaviour Tree - which they still can't seem to make work - by all means correct me if I'm wrong on this.
The only thing Star Citizen does differently to other games is their constant drive for FIDELITY - creating a fluid physics simulation for drinks, creating a whole system to deal with picking up objects, rendering every little bolt and fixture in high detail. The reason why no other game does this is because it's a performance hog and detracts from the actual gameplay. In that regard, Star Citizen seems to be a giant art project rather than a game, but that's just my opinion!
As I've mentioned, it's new for cryengine. I know other games have done it but none of them look as nice as cryengine and no other game is doing everything that SC is trying to do, Elite and 'space legs' aside, even then it's not to the same level as SC is attempting with its skill based mini game mining et Al.
The promise of SC is worth waiting for and seeing as I don't believe they're in financial trouble anytime soon I'm happy to wait for this beautiful art project to become a game worth playing.
Post by: N0mad on July 30, 2017, 02:35:25 AM
Quote
The promise of SC is worth waiting for and seeing as I don't believe they're in financial trouble anytime soon I'm happy to wait for this beautiful art project to become a game worth playing.
If they ever deliver it then it will be a very beautiful game to look at, but if it means having space dog fights at 20fps then that won't be fun. Exactly what gameplay are they actually delivering? If you look at their Gameplay production schedule for 3.0 its:
- PLAYER MANNED TURRETS
- PICK UP & CARRY
- Ship systems: Radar System, Light Control System, Fuel / Refuel, Power Supply / Pipes, Quantum Drive
- INSURANCE
- STAMINA
- DOORS & AIRLOCKS
- CARGO
- COMMODITIES
- KIOSK SUPPORT
- ATMOSPHERIC ENTRY SUPPORT
- PERSISTENT DAMAGE, AMMO AND MISSILES
- REPAIR
- INVENTORY SYSTEM SUPPORT
- ROVER AND DRAGONFLY IN SHIPS
- HINT SYSTEM
- Points of Interest
- new Mission System.
- Power Plants / Shield Generators / Coolers and the Heat & Power System
These are mostly just features not actual gameplay mechanics.
So you can haul cargo, dogfight a bit with pirates (but be careful because you won't get your ship back for a while if it's destroyed), do missions (?how many will be in 3.0?), loot some wrecks. Enough to keep you entertained for a few hours at most.
They seem so obsessed with creating a high fidelity universe that they've forgotten it's meant to be a game. It strikes me that they seem to be falling into the same trap as No Man's Sky who spent so much time creating a giant procedural universe that they forgot to add anything interesting to do when you actually played the game.
Post by: Serendipity on July 30, 2017, 09:17:25 AM
QuoteThe promise of SC is worth waiting for and seeing as I don't believe they're in financial trouble anytime soon I'm happy to wait for this beautiful art project to become a game worth playing.
If they ever deliver it then it will be a very beautiful game to look at, but if it means having space dog fights at 20fps then that won't be fun. Exactly what gameplay are they actually delivering? If you look at their Gameplay production schedule for 3.0 its:
- PLAYER MANNED TURRETS
- PICK UP & CARRY
- Ship systems: Radar System, Light Control System, Fuel / Refuel, Power Supply / Pipes, Quantum Drive
- INSURANCE
- STAMINA
- DOORS & AIRLOCKS
- CARGO
- COMMODITIES
- KIOSK SUPPORT
- ATMOSPHERIC ENTRY SUPPORT
- PERSISTENT DAMAGE, AMMO AND MISSILES
- REPAIR
- INVENTORY SYSTEM SUPPORT
- ROVER AND DRAGONFLY IN SHIPS
- HINT SYSTEM
- Points of Interest
- new Mission System.
- Power Plants / Shield Generators / Coolers and the Heat & Power System
These are mostly just features not actual gameplay mechanics.
So you can haul cargo, dogfight a bit with pirates (but be careful because you won't get your ship back for a while if it's destroyed), do missions (?how many will be in 3.0?), loot some wrecks. Enough to keep you entertained for a few hours at most.
They seem so obsessed with creating a high fidelity universe that they've forgotten it's meant to be a game. It strikes me that they seem to be falling into the same trap as No Man's Sky who spent so much time creating a giant procedural universe that they forgot to add anything interesting to do when you actually played the game.
Well yeah, 3.0 is bare bones but their plans sound cool. I'll assume you've seen the mining and repair deep dives? Game play will be added, you know, almost as if it's an alpha or something...
https://robertsspaceindustries.com/comm-link/engineering/14522-Design-Notes-Mining
https://robertsspaceindustries.com/comm-link/engineering/15062-Ship-Repair-And-Maintenance
Post by: Serendipity on July 30, 2017, 09:25:44 AM
Production Schedule and 3.0 by Will "Soulcrusher" Leverett
Hi there SC fam!
There’s been quite a bit of healthy discussion about our recent Production Schedule update, so I thought I’d share a few thoughts and comments:
Our Production Schedule updates that you see are right out of the same software that our production team uses. No edits, no censors, no marketing spin.
We’ve created this as a service to you to keep you informed of what we are working on, with the goal of providing estimated date ranges.
As with all estimates, they can change. When venturing off into uncharted territory, one does not always see or know all of the challenges ahead of them; they are often complete unknowns until they present themselves along the way.
We’ve pushed far past the technological boundaries that were previously considered impossible to build the foundation of the Star Citizen universe. Working on 3.0 has certainly introduced variables and challenges that we could never have anticipated, and these just do not always cater to a tidy date on a calendar.
As gamers, we are conditioned to consider all dates as static points in time that we can wrap our heads around and plan for in advance. The nature of this project does not neatly fit into that mold due to the complexity of what we’re building, and with what we learn about what's possible and needed along the way. These date ranges are dynamic according to the challenges presented to us at that time, and we actively maintain that to keep you up to date.
The scope of 3.0 is not insignificant, as Chris discussed in https://robertsspaceindustries.com/comm-link//15842-Letter-From-The-Chairman-The-Road-Ahead. It introduces a level of tech and infrastructure that’s an order of magnitude larger and more complex than all of our previous versions combined. There are thousands of new assets, millions of entities to manage, new UI, new features, multiple new backend services, etc. all being introduced in 3.0.
Integrating all of this has revealed to be MUCH more of a bug fixing project than anticipated, which obviously reshapes those estimates and changes those dates. Hammering in a level of polish that we’ve not aimed for before requires an additional adjustment of dates.
There’s certainly no malice behind it, and anyone who makes that claim is providing an uninformed opinion. Ask any project manager or developer who worked on sophisticated software or has been involved on a complex project with lots of dependencies and moving parts. They'll gladly share how challenging a task of estimates can be.
The heroic efforts of those creating and maintaining the Production Schedule should be commended. They represent our efforts to keep up with this complex and ever evolving ecosystem, and work tirelessly to keep you up to date through regular sweat and tears (and I think I saw blood once). It’s its own massive behemoth of a project, and they do it each week for you.
It's just not in our DNA to hold updates and content back. We simply don’t do that. When it’s ready for primetime, it’s out the door for you to enjoy.
It’s also important to consider that what 3.0 meant a year ago is a shadow of what 3.0 means today. Back then, Planetary Tech would have offered a fraction of the freedom that it does in 3.0, and most of the numerous infrastructure updates going into it now did not exist. [WL: Edited previous sentence for clarity] Roughly speaking, the approach was that we’d be able to deliver four roughly built, predetermined, pre-scripted, landing zones. The reality is that those would have been rather limited, and ultimately, somewhat of a variation of what Area 18 ArcCorp is today in terms of features and functionality.
Today, 3.0 is about delivering an entirely explorable solar system with the backend services to make it dynamic. It’s about giving us the city and planet building tools to create for you the rest of the universe in an intelligent, scalable, efficient, and compelling manner. It’s about the first step in giving you the tools to create player outposts and communities. It’s about the streaming tech to allow you to take off from one moon, fly across the system, and land on an entirely different moon, the driving a freaking sweet buggy out of the back of your ship to race around the entire planet... all without a loading screen. It’s about giving you the ability to buy what’s on the web inside kiosks. It’s about usable turret gameplay, and Items 2.0 so you can customize your own ship with new components. It’s about picking objects and cargo so you can haul commodities across space as a trader and merchant. It’s about gutting a singleplayer engine to support thousands of players. It’s about infrastructure that we needed to develop because there are no off-the-shelf solutions for building an immersive experience like no other.
And that’s just part of what's in 3.0!
The entire company is working feverishly to get you 3.0. Our goal is to provide you with the most amazing gaming experience ever. We’ve learned that we can deliver something better than the original 3.0, something bigger, something pretty groundbreaking, something magnificent.
That doesn’t always keep to a schedule, but we think it’s ok to take the time to do it right.
Happy Sunday everyone,
Will "Soulcrusher" Leverett
Director of Player Relations
Source https://robertsspaceindustries.com/spectrum/community/SC/forum/3/thread/production-schedule-and-3-0
Post by: Motto on July 30, 2017, 09:49:28 AM
This is a good post, heart felt and seemingly honest.
:vince: :bravo:
Post by: dsmart on July 30, 2017, 10:15:36 AM
This is a good post, heart felt and seemingly honest.
LOL!! The sad part is that you're really serious. :laugh:
ps: Admitting to increasing the scope of a project, complete with excuses and zero accountability, isn't "seemingly honest" :bahgawd:
Meanwhile, over on Reddit... (https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/comments/6qhhx6/production_schedule_and_30_by_will_soulcrusher/)
Post by: Serendipity on July 30, 2017, 11:08:59 AM
This is a good post, heart felt and seemingly honest.
LOL!! The sad part is that you're really serious. :laugh:
ps: Admitting to increasing the scope of a project, complete with excuses and zero accountability, isn't "seemingly honest" :bahgawd:
Meanwhile, over on Reddit... (https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/comments/6qhhx6/production_schedule_and_30_by_will_soulcrusher/)
Why would they need to admit to increasing the scope? That's a strange thing to say. They've mentioned the increasing scope many times.
Some have picked up on one part of the post apparently contradicting Chris but on the whole it feels like an honest bunch of words from a passionate and dedicated developer.
Some blinded by confirmation bias may see it differently I suppose. The project's a mess and unsalvageable, therefore he's lying. S-l-o-w c-l-a-p.
Post by: Karmic Cake on July 30, 2017, 08:27:18 PM
Post by: Serendipity on July 30, 2017, 10:20:21 PM
Who needs a game when you get to read good, heartfelt and seemingly honest posts.
Nobody needs a game. Waiting for something special is OK for me. Lots of other games to play. I'm in no rush.
Post by: GaryII on July 30, 2017, 11:53:51 PM
This is a good post, heart felt and seemingly honest.
Production Schedule and 3.0 by Will "Soulcrusher" Leverett
Yeah, sure :D
Only thing that works by schedule are ship sales... :D
Post by: GaryII on July 30, 2017, 11:57:16 PM
Who needs a game when you get to read good, heartfelt and seemingly honest posts.Nobody needs a game.
Yes, looking at v2.6.3 (current result after 5-6 years of dev) is clear that better is to wait forever, since game will be disappointment or average in best scenario at the end, if ever released..
Post by: Serendipity on July 31, 2017, 01:01:58 AM
This is a good post, heart felt and seemingly honest.
Production Schedule and 3.0 by Will "Soulcrusher" Leverett
Yeah, sure :D
Only thing that works by schedule are ship sales... :D
Is it a crime for a company to sell what it produces? Is anyone forced into buying? Does Chris come round my house with a gun?
Who needs a game when you get to read good, heartfelt and seemingly honest posts.Nobody needs a game.
Yes, looking at v2.6.3 (current result after 5-6 years of dev) is clear that better is to wait forever, since game will be disappointment or average in best scenario at the end, if ever released..
It's not better to wait, everyone wants the game earlier but looking at a tiny slice of what is envisioned as a barometer for the final product is short sighted at best. Let's see what 3.0 and onwards brings. Perhaps a true alpha product over pre alpha or tech demo.
Post by: Narrenbart on July 31, 2017, 01:14:39 AM
It's not better to wait, everyone wants the game earlier but looking at a tiny slice of what is envisioned as a barometer for the final product is short sighted at best. Let's see what 3.0 and onwards brings. Perhaps a true alpha product over pre alpha or tech demo.But who will pay for it, who will pay the 400+ devs all the years to come
Post by: GaryII on July 31, 2017, 01:27:34 AM
It's not better to wait, everyone wants the game earlier but looking at a tiny slice of what is envisioned as a barometer for the final product is short sighted at best. Let's see what 3.0 and onwards brings. Perhaps a true alpha product over pre alpha or tech demo.But who will pay for it, who will pay the 400+ devs all the years to come
Good question, I quess rich people, for example this SC youtuber:
Nice setup, i guess he can easily afford to buy expensive ships every year, too..
My prediction currently is: that whales will accept v3.0 as enough "progress" and continue to give them money, so they will survive till 2018...
Post by: GaryII on July 31, 2017, 01:35:47 AM
Is it a crime for a company to sell what it produces? Is anyone forced into buying? Does Chris come round my house with a gun?
Its not a crime, but they definitely have very dishonest marketing practices like this:
– Week A: delay critical tasks, add a few fluff tasks, do not delay overall launch prediction. Sales are usually held during these weeks.
– Week B: close a few fluff tasks to convey an image of progress, delay the overall launch prediction for two weeks
So in the end they are exploiting people who are irresponsible with their money...and I personally don't like that...
Post by: Serendipity on July 31, 2017, 03:14:44 AM
It's not better to wait, everyone wants the game earlier but looking at a tiny slice of what is envisioned as a barometer for the final product is short sighted at best. Let's see what 3.0 and onwards brings. Perhaps a true alpha product over pre alpha or tech demo.But who will pay for it, who will pay the 400+ devs all the years to come
Funding continues. 3.0 release, Gamescom, citizencon and Squadron 42 will provide many more millions. They'll be ok for a while yet.
Is it a crime for a company to sell what it produces? Is anyone forced into buying? Does Chris come round my house with a gun?
Its not a crime, but they definitely have very dishonest marketing practices like this:
– Week A: delay critical tasks, add a few fluff tasks, do not delay overall launch prediction. Sales are usually held during these weeks.
– Week B: close a few fluff tasks to convey an image of progress, delay the overall launch prediction for two weeks
So in the end they are exploiting people who are irresponsible with their money...and I personally don't like that...
What you're suggesting has no basis in fact. You're just parroting Derek's malicious agenda with no evidence that's intentional deceit. Read the post I pasted from Will Leverett. Read the caveats from the schedule itself.
Do you really think backers pre purchase based on estimated completion dates of individual components?
"Oh look, they've nearly completed volumetric fog, imma gonna buy a freelancer now" said no-one, ever.
Post by: N0mad on July 31, 2017, 03:39:38 AM
What you're suggesting has no basis in fact. You're just parroting Derek's malicious agenda with no evidence that's intentional deceit. Read the post I pasted from Will Leverett. Read the caveats from the schedule itself.
Wow, this thread is entertaining - I can't wait for Derek's response now.
I guess the main allegation is whether or not CIG are intentionally deceiving their backers. Answers on a postcard...
Post by: GaryII on July 31, 2017, 03:39:47 AM
– Week A: delay critical tasks, add a few fluff tasks, do not delay overall launch prediction. Sales are usually held during these weeks.
– Week B: close a few fluff tasks to convey an image of progress, delay the overall launch prediction for two weeks
What you're suggesting has no basis in fact. You're just parroting Derek's malicious agenda with no evidence that's intentional deceit.
Read the post I pasted from Will Leverett. Read the caveats from the schedule itself.
That Week A and Week B observation is NOT from Derek, originally it was posted by some backer in CIG forums...
At this point their "schedule" are pointless, it exists only to calm down backers to show some ongoing "progress"...
In general they have huge management issues starting from top - CR is already known for NOT delivering in time and on budget (Freelancer..)..so here is high change that history will repeat itself...
1) Pre-Alfa already shows some strange attempts to reinvent the Wheel - head bobbing lol that all the time "jumping" radar...
2) Some ships with bad cockpit views...I guess they are not designed for humans to fly...
3) overcomplicated ships designs for "MMO" (where you need to keep things simple to have descent performance) that game engine can not handle even in offline mode...because they are using engine that was designed for single player FPS :D
so best possible outcome - average game with strange design decisions and performance issues..
Probably game will be forever in alfa until funding stops...
Post by: Serendipity on July 31, 2017, 05:29:34 AM
– Week A: delay critical tasks, add a few fluff tasks, do not delay overall launch prediction. Sales are usually held during these weeks.
– Week B: close a few fluff tasks to convey an image of progress, delay the overall launch prediction for two weeks
What you're suggesting has no basis in fact. You're just parroting Derek's malicious agenda with no evidence that's intentional deceit.
Read the post I pasted from Will Leverett. Read the caveats from the schedule itself.
At this point their "schedule" are pointless, it exists only to calm down backers to show some ongoing "progress"...
In general they have huge management issues starting from top - CR is already known for NOT delivering in time and on budget (Freelancer..)..so here is high change that history will repeat itself...
1) Pre-Alfa already shows some strange attempts to reinvent the Wheel - head bobbing lol that all the time "jumping" radar...
2) Some ships with bad cockpit views...I guess they are not designed for humans to fly...
3) overcomplicated ships designs for "MMO" (where you need to keep things simple to have descent performance) that game engine can not handle even in offline mode...because they are using engine that was designed for single player FPS :D
so best possible outcome - average game with strange design decisions and performance issues..
Probably game will be forever in alfa until funding stops...
The schedule is the internal one if Will is telling the truth. It shows where they want to be. It's not an exact science. Accurate and something to bet on? No. Their best guess for now? I believe so.
The head bob/stabilisation work was required because of the desire to have a unified 1st and 3rd person animation set and for bullets to come from the barrel of the gun and not just the centre of the screen or characters head as in most games. It wasn't trivial but was needed. The human brain does a great job of stabilising our vision.
The engine has been significantly reworked and it performs absolutely fine in offline mode or when the server is fresh or empty. Netcode is holding it all back for now.
Best possible outcome isn't an everage game. That's daft. Of course they can make it work with time and money and seeing as they don't have a fixed budget nor time frame and backers seem willing to continue funding, who knows what they can achieve. Microsoft had a fixed budget. GIG doesn't.
Post by: Motto on July 31, 2017, 05:52:52 AM
Chris has stated that if funding went dry this day, they'd still have enough money to finish the game SQ42 and that the revenues generated by SQ42 would enable them to complete the rest of SC. So, in building the games, money is no issue. However, the fact that they haven't build anything regarding SQ42, or are still failing at delivering something worth playable at all might, but let's not look to deep into that.
Let's assume that CIG has money issues. Recent events are a strong indication of that. The ungoing sales for cash only, the loan in the UK et cetera are clear signs of that. They spend most of the money they received in the past years on all their studios, the staff etc. yet have little finished product to show for and the new income stream isn't enough to cover the monthly expenses. So, there comes a point when the costs are higher than the money left. If you know that's coming, the best things to do are:
1. increasing the income
2. cutting down expenses
Since 1. is clearly getting exhausted, mainly because of the fact they still can't produce a decent Alpha build and keep on feeding the backers lots of BS, only 2. remains. However, telling the community that despite the fact that there still isn't a game after all those years and money spend, expenses have to be cut down by closing offices - therefore also reducing the people actually working on the game - is not a real option. It would be regarded as proof that the money is gone. After 155m having to admit to the backers that there is not enough money left to continue building on the old scale would be killing. The only way to avoid that, other than releasing a working game as promised (or full financial disclosure), is to act as if nothing is wrong. Meaning burning through the remaining money at the same speed.
So, what to do? At Gamescom 2016 Chris stated that 3.0 was nearly there. Now, a year later, 3.0 is still not there. And they are defending that by saying they almost had a working small 3.0 but decided to skip that and go for a big 3.0 with lots of extra features et cetera. Unfortunately, backers can easily point out that most if not all of those extra's were originally intented for the small 3.0 or are now even less than for the original small 3.0 release. The number of ignorant backers is getting lower, more and more are mainly fed up with being lied to. It doesn't mean they are giving up on SC yet, but the will to put in extra money (again) is drying up. Failing to be honest is getting a bigger problem for CIG than failing to deliver 3.0.
Now Gamescom 2017 is coming in three weeks. There is no 3.0 released yet, not even to the inner circle of Avocado's. Most likely reason, there isn't a 3.0 ready to be delivered. So again, a choice. Going to Gamescon without a 3.0 release. Chris would have to be a great talker to justify that after his statement from 2016. He'll probably try to deflect that with a lot of handwaving, big dreams and futuretelling and by showing beautiful R&D videoclips of things to come. Possibly with huge sandworms. They might even have a totally pre-loaded and scipted 3.0 gamerun availble for an "independent" backer to "play". Only this time, the backers know what's coming. Been there last year, seen that last year. Yawn... So, it might spike the hype a little again, but it won't be the major revenue boost they hope for. Of course, according to their funding tracker, it will be a huge success.
The other option is putting the not-ready 3.0 out there with the Avocado's. Where it will be a major disappointment and that will leak. The frustration of waiting over a year for something that even then doesn't deliver will get the most hardcore backer over. In a way, the overhyping and overanticipating by the backers is now becoming an extra burden for CIG. There is no way to live up to those expectations.
Best scenario: succesfully feeding the hype (again) at Gamescom with lots of clips etc. to generate money. Releasing 3.0 quickly right after and hoping that a better performing 3.0x can be made available before Shitizencon in October. There another run of big stories and videoclips with the statement, see, we did release 3.0 so we're still on the slow but right track. So keep giving us money so we can complete the BDSSE.
The remaining number of totally ignorant backers will determine how long CIG can continue the current operation. My guess it won't be long now. Regardless how much everybody might want SC to succeed, it's just not going to happen.
And no, Serendipity, you don't have to rebuttal my post with arguments, quotes, statements, videolinks and what not, to show that you think there is nothing wrong with the (financial) situation of CIG, that there might or might not be a game, that delays are to be expected when building something completely new and/or of this magnitude, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. We've been there, we've done that. To those here on this forum, it's obvious that Star Citizen is a disaster and that it will collapse shortly. I'll be the second (after Derek) to admit that he was wrong if we're still all here in a couple of years predicting CIG will fall over shortly. But that's no more reality than Star Citizen ever being released.
Post by: GaryII on July 31, 2017, 06:00:19 AM
The engine has been significantly reworked and it performs absolutely fine in offline mode or when the server is fresh or empty. Netcode is holding it all back for now.
Not that great....
https://robertsspaceindustries.com/spectrum/community/SC/forum/3/thread/starcitizen-performance-cpu-scaling-in-hacked-offl
and thats only on 720p..
Post by: dsmart on July 31, 2017, 06:00:58 AM
It's not better to wait, everyone wants the game earlier but looking at a tiny slice of what is envisioned as a barometer for the final product is short sighted at best. Let's see what 3.0 and onwards brings. Perhaps a true alpha product over pre alpha or tech demo.But who will pay for it, who will pay the 400+ devs all the years to come
Funding continues. 3.0 release, Gamescom, citizencon and Squadron 42 will provide many more millions. They'll be ok for a while yet.Is it a crime for a company to sell what it produces? Is anyone forced into buying? Does Chris come round my house with a gun?
Its not a crime, but they definitely have very dishonest marketing practices like this:
– Week A: delay critical tasks, add a few fluff tasks, do not delay overall launch prediction. Sales are usually held during these weeks.
– Week B: close a few fluff tasks to convey an image of progress, delay the overall launch prediction for two weeks
So in the end they are exploiting people who are irresponsible with their money...and I personally don't like that...
What you're suggesting has no basis in fact. You're just parroting Derek's malicious agenda with no evidence that's intentional deceit. Read the post I pasted from Will Leverett. Read the caveats from the schedule itself.
Do you really think backers pre purchase based on estimated completion dates of individual components?
"Oh look, they've nearly completed volumetric fog, imma gonna buy a freelancer now" said no-one, ever.
Let me break down his post for you because I feel that you are having a difficult time reconciling it.
Quote
Its not a crime, but they definitely have very dishonest marketing practices like this:
Actually fraud is a crime. So are fraudulent inducement, unjust enrichment etc. While violating of an agreement (the ToS) is subject to civil legal action.
If LYING to backers was perfectly OK, and not a crime, State and Fed officials won't have systematically taken legal action against various crowd-funding projects. And since those sort of investigations do take time, I am certain that many are in the works even as I type this.
Also, that's why the FTC has a wealth of resources on it's website dedicated to DECEPTIVE PRACTICES.
Quote
– Week A: delay critical tasks, add a few fluff tasks, do not delay overall launch prediction. Sales are usually held during these weeks.
This is an actual fact, backed by metrics.
The 3.0 schedule released in April and with a June 29th release aim date, was completely bogus. There is NO way that a project manager didn't know that it was off by as much as 90 DAYS.
So, the pattern is that instead of showing a longer release date, they pad it 2-3 weeks at a time. Trust me, it's the oldest trick in the book when dealing with publishers who pay on milestone deliveries.
While they had the Nox and Cyclone sales, the release aim date for 07/14 (http://www.dereksmart.com/forum/index.php?topic=29.msg1924#msg1924) and 07/21 (http://www.dereksmart.com/forum/index.php?topic=29.msg2049#msg2049) schedules didn't change. This despite the fact that several tasks were delayed by as much as three weeks. Then at the height of the sale, the 07/28 (http://www.dereksmart.com/forum/index.php?topic=29.msg2163#msg2163) schedule adds another two weeks.
And in those tasks, instead of completing the important ones, they are then adding new (some of the sub-tasks) tasks, under the guise of "this will make 3.0 better". The same thing that got the game scope so bloated, and sealed its fate as an incoming disaster.
Quote
– Week B: close a few fluff tasks to convey an image of progress, delay the overall launch prediction for two weeks
And they've been doing this consistently since the first 3.0 schedule in April. And not only that, in the June-July schedules, entire tasks which were once marked completed, changed to TBD, or had no status at all. Which leads most of us devs to believe that the original status was bogus.
When I wrote a few times back in late 2016 and earlier this year that sources told me that "3.0 didn't exist", some people didn't believe me. I didn't believe it at first. So, I would like someone to explain to me how a 3.0 that was touted in Aug 2016, "shown" in Oct 2016, and "estimated" to be coming on|before Dec 19 2016, ended up now being + 8 months late, and will probably be a full 12 months before it is released to all backers.
Post by: dsmart on July 31, 2017, 06:09:00 AM
It all doesn't matter anymore now, the game is almost over.
Chris has stated that if funding went dry this day, they'd still have enough money to finish the game SQ42 and that the revenues generated by SQ42 would enable them to complete the rest of SC. So, in building the games, money is no issue. However, the fact that they haven't build anything regarding SQ42, or are still failing at delivering something worth playable at all might, but let's not look to deep into that.
Let's assume that CIG has money issues. Recent events are a strong indication of that. The ungoing sales for cash only, the loan in the UK et cetera are clear signs of that. They spend most of the money they received in the past years on all their studios, the staff etc. yet have little finished product to show for and the new income stream isn't enough to cover the monthly expenses. So, there comes a point when the costs are higher than the money left. If you know that's coming, the best things to do are:
1. increasing the income
2. cutting down expenses
Since 1. is clearly getting exhausted, mainly because of the fact they still can't produce a decent Alpha build and keep on feeding the backers lots of BS, only 2. remains. However, telling the community that despite the fact that there still isn't a game after all those years and money spend, expenses have to be cut down by closing offices - therefore also reducing the people actually working on the game - is not a real option. It would be regarded as proof that the money is gone. After 155m having to admit to the backers that there is not enough money left to continue building on the old scale would be killing. The only way to avoid that, other than releasing a working game as promised (or full financial disclosure), is to act as if nothing is wrong. Meaning burning through the remaining money at the same speed.
So, what to do? At Gamescom 2016 Chris stated that 3.0 was nearly there. Now, a year later, 3.0 is still not there. And they are defending that by saying they almost had a working small 3.0 but decided to skip that and go for a big 3.0 with lost of extra features et cetera. Unfortunately, backers can easily point out that most if not all off those extra's where originally intented for the small 3.0 or are now even less than for the original small 3.0 release. The number of ignorant backers is getting lower, more and more are mainly fed up with being lied to. It doesn't mean they are giving up on SC yet, but the will to put in extra money (again) is drying up. Failing to be honest is getting a bigger problem for CIG than failing to deliver 3.0.
Now Gamescom 2017 is coming in three weeks. There is no 3.0 released yet, not even to the inner circle of Avocado's. Most likely reason, there isn't a 3.0 ready to be delivered. So again, a choice. Going to Gamescon without a 3.0 release. Chris would have to be a great talker to justify that after his statement from 2016. He'll probably try to deflect that with a lot of handwaving, big dreams and futuretelling and by showing beautiful R&D videoclips of things to come. Possibly with huge sandworms. They might even have a totally pre-loaded and scipted 3.0 gamerun availble for a "independent" backer to "play". Only this time, the backers know what's coming. Been there last year, seen that last year. Yawn... So, it might spike the hype a little again, but it won't be the major revenue boost they hope for. Of course, according to their funding tracker, it will be a huge success.
The other option is putting the not-ready 3.0 out there with the Avocado's. Where it will be a major disappointment and that will leak. The frustration of waiting over a year for something that even then doesn't deliver will get the most hardcore backer over. In a way, the overhyping and overanticipating by the backers is now becoming an extra burden for CIG. There is no way to live up to those expectations.
Best scenario: succesfully feeding the hype (again) at Gamescom with lots of clips etc. to generate money. Releasing 3.0 quickly right after and hoping that a better performing 3.0x can be made available before Shitizencon in October. There another run of big stories and videoclips with the statement, see, we did release 3.0 so we're still on the slow but right track. So keep giving us money so we can complete the BDSSE.
The remaining number of totally ignorant backers will determine how long CIG can continue the current operation. My guess it won't be long now. Regardless how much everybody might want SC to succeed, it's just not going to happen.
And no, Serendipity, you don't have to rebuttal my post with arguments, quotes, statements, videolinks and what not, to show that you think there is nothing wrong with the (financial) situation of CIG, that there might or might not be a game, that delays are to be expected when building something completely new and/or of this magnitude, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. We've been there, we've done that. To those here on this forum, it's obvious that Star Citizen is a disaster and that it will collapse shortly. I'll be the second (after Derek) to admit that's he was wrong if we're still all here in a couple of years predicting CIG will fall over shortly. But that's no more reality than Star Citizen ever being released.
Brilliant post. I believe we have a contender for my posting crown :five: :five: :five:
I don't personally believe that they will release it to Evocati during GamesCom unless it is in a playable state that's going to amaze rather than annoy. This is because, with all the angst, and /r/StarCitizen having lifted their "No Evocati" rules, comments and opinions it WILL leak. Once that happens, depending on what those testers believe - though it is very likely that there are loyalists among them who will lie or try to downplay it as "pre-alpha", the sentiment will be a sea change. That's what I believe will be the final nail in the coffin.
This project will never make it to 4.0.
Post by: dsmart on July 31, 2017, 06:11:50 AM
The engine has been significantly reworked and it performs absolutely fine in offline mode or when the server is fresh or empty. Netcode is holding it all back for now.
You DO realize that it's an online-only game, right?
Also, no, the performance isn't "absolutely fine". Geez man, you're not even trying anymore. If anything, even the most hardcore SC loyalists know that the game is an absolute performance hog.
Post by: dsmart on July 31, 2017, 06:14:56 AM
In fact, as I wrote here (http://dereksmart.com/2016/06/star-citizen-fidelity-of-failure/#comment-3407) about a year ago, that notion is patently false. The 11-03-2012 stretch goals poll (https://www.robertsspaceindustries.com/comm-link/transmission/12760-Poll-Additional-Stretch-Goals), and the 07-17-2013 funding counter poll (https://robertsspaceindustries.com/comm-link/transmission/13266-Letter-From-The-Chairman-19-Million) did no such thing. And even if it did, it was still up to Chris to know when to say no, or when to determine whether or not it could be done. But regardless, in Nov 2014, after raising $65M, the project scope was significantly increased, thus sealing its fate and dooming it to the failure it is now facing.
Quote
That’s the third time you’ve posted the same link to the same poll, disregarding points raised that the poll data doesn’t show any consensus or agreement in any of the options, since not even a simple majority agrees on any one option despite each participant being allowed to select 3 options. Members of the active SC community were given 3 votes each and still failed to put any of the options above 40% support, which suggests that there is no majority support from the community for any of the expansion options.
If anything, giving people 3 choices each instead of 1 should have made it easier for any one option to hit 50%, but that still didn’t happen. All this shows is that CIG polled the community and then promptly disregarded the results, opting to proceed with their own plan instead, and certainly doesn’t support your assertion that the changes were voted and agreed upon by the community.
Post by: Serendipity on July 31, 2017, 08:28:38 AM
Quote
I'll be the second (after Derek) to admit that's he was wrong if we're still all here in a couple of years predicting CIG will fall over shortly.
Derek's been saying it for 2 years already. Let's see where we are in another 12 months.
The engine has been significantly reworked and it performs absolutely fine in offline mode or when the server is fresh or empty. Netcode is holding it all back for now.
You DO realize that it's an online-only game, right?
Also, no, the performance isn't "absolutely fine". Geez man, you're not even trying anymore. If anything, even the most hardcore SC loyalists know that the game is an absolute performance hog.
The client can be hacked to work offline. It removes the server limitations and provides a smooth gaming experience. Yes it's a resource hog but that never stopped Crysis shipping millions of copies.
https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/comments/5k2h16/26_play_offline/
Do try to keep up dear, non official offline mode has been available for a long time.
Quote
Let's assume that CIG has money issues. Recent events are a strong indication of that. The ungoing sales for cash only, the loan in the UK et cetera are clear signs of that.
Terrible assumption. Attempting to generate sales doesn't mean a company is in financial trouble. Cleverly using collateral to get a loan to save money on exchange rates isn't a sign they're in financial trouble. Mass lay offs and stories of non payment of wages would be a sign of financial trouble.
Let's see if they exist as a company in 12 months. I'm sure if they do they'll be just around the corner from financial collapse still, according to some at least.
Post by: N0mad on July 31, 2017, 08:46:06 AM
Post by: Serendipity on July 31, 2017, 10:23:01 AM
Hi Serendipity, so you think CIG are being completely honest with their backers?
I believe they're honest in the sense that plans, scopes and timeframes change, often without warning or any clue to the necessities. I believe they do their best to build a game under intense scrutiny and vitriol. I believe lots try to find as many inconsistencies as possible with comments from a large company who's internal communication can be improved.
Basically, yes I do. Errors have been made. Guestimates have been poor. Things have changed but on the whole they're just a game dev company trying to make a game.
Post by: BigM on July 31, 2017, 11:18:12 AM
Basically, yes I do. Errors have been made. Guesstimates have been poor. Things have changed but on the whole, they're just a game dev company trying to make a game.
Taking the "they're just a game dev company trying to make a game" out, rest of statement can be directed to CR's past and why he can't release a game without major help from the big boys!
I really would have been expecting the game to be moving to an early beta by this time. Just taking what CR has stated in the past alpha should have been long gone.
Post by: dsmart on July 31, 2017, 11:56:09 AM
Derek's been saying it for 2 years already. Let's see where we are in another 12 months.
This again?
Do we need to remind you that when analysts make predictions, it's based on info "on hand at the time"?
When I said that back in Oct 2015, that was before a bunch of whales stuck in Sunk Cost Falllacy, decided to keep giving them money, even as CIG continued to use deception and trickery to aid that effort. And it's only now some of you are feigning shock and surprise that it's precisely what they've been doing all this time.
Now 2.8 years late, and $90.5M over budget, please explain to me HOW they would still be operational at the end of Jan 2016, after having raised $107M (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1tMAP0fg-AKScI3S3VjrDW3OaLO4zgBA1RSYoQOQoNSI/htmlview#).
So yes, in a way, I was right. This is evidenced by the fact that the project is late, is nowhere near completion, and has raised an additional $48M since end of Jan 2016. If backers had stopped giving them money, the project, for all intent and purposes, would most likely be dead by now.
Quote
The client can be hacked to work offline. It removes the server limitations and provides a smooth gaming experience.
Jesus H. Christ on crutches, man! Did you have a partial lobotomy? Because, damn. This is an online only game. And you're talking about hacking offline - which means no other players, as well as a "smooth gaming experience" as a result of the hack?
Quote
Yes it's a resource hog but that never stopped Crysis shipping millions of copies.
That's not what is making it raise money. Get a grip.
Quote
Cleverly using collateral to get a loan to save money on exchange rates isn't a sign they're in financial trouble. Mass lay offs and stories of non payment of wages would be a sign of financial trouble.
Except that's not what they did. And only complete morons believe the rubbish explanation that Ortwin, who has every reason to lie, as they have done many times in the past, gave. If it wasn't such a big deal, WHY did he feel the need to come out on a SUNDAY to address a furor that I apparently started when I tweeted and wrote about the loan?
Post by: Motto on July 31, 2017, 12:30:39 PM
But, they didn't. They kept quiet. Until the news broke and they had to issue a statement about it. Not to boost morale, but to prevent people actually loosing morale because it wasn't a good deal, but a shitty one. A desperate move to keep afloat yet another month. Now, that's a good reason to not tell about it. As they tried.
Post by: Meowz on July 31, 2017, 01:46:29 PM
If the loan indeed was a wise decision, CIG would have made a public statement, because, of course, it was a wise decision. So publically telling about it should boost the morale of both backers and investors. Why hide good news?
But, they didn't. They kept quiet. Until the news broke and they had to issue a statement about it. Not to boost morale, but to prevent people actually loosing morale because it wasn't a good deal, but a shitty one. A desperate move to keep afloat yet another month. Now, that's a good reason to not tell about it. As they tried.
If the reasons they stated were true (lol), I can't think of any reason why they would make something like that public knowledge, or address it unless it became public knowledge as it did.
Post by: Meowz on July 31, 2017, 01:49:29 PM
Post by: dsmart on July 31, 2017, 02:46:44 PM
I liked Serendipity's playing devil's advocate at first to balance out the echo chamber here, but there reaches a point where it goes from a good debate to talking to a wall. When both sides keep bringing up the same points its obviously devolved into wall speak. Why do you guys even bother with Serendipity anymore, and Serendipity why do you bother when you seem unwilling to consider any other view points currently?
You beat me to it, as I was just pondering the same thing. But you know how we are here, we don't run an echo chamber. So as long as posters are civil, no matter how ludicrous their opinions and comments, we can continue to indulge. :c00lbert:
Post by: Ghostmaker on July 31, 2017, 02:51:43 PM
I want to draw attention to this, because this is what our host has been bitching about; this bizarre contorting of reality that you usually get when you read Cthulhu Mythos tomes.QuoteThe client can be hacked to work offline. It removes the server limitations and provides a smooth gaming experience.
Jesus H. Christ on crutches, man! Did you have a partial lobotomy? Because, damn. This is an online only game. And you're talking about hacking offline - which means no other players, as well as a "smooth gaming experience" as a result of the hack?
Swap out SC for ANY online/MMO game name, and insert it in, and think about it.
'The World of Warcraft client provides a smooth gaming experience when you hack it to run offline!'
Jesus Christ, Serendipity, LOOK AT WHAT YOU JUST SAID. This is supposed to be an ONLINE game. That's like talking about how awesome it is to play Team Fortress 2 or PlayerUnknown's Battlegrounds offline! (Yes, I know you can play TF2 offline to practice, and I bet PUBG works that way too; but that's not exactly playing the game, is it?)
Post by: Motto on July 31, 2017, 02:59:40 PM
The thing that bothers me most however, is that I don't think Serendipity is playing devil's advocate here. If he is, I'd have to applaud him, but my best guess is that he really truly madly believes everything he says about CIG/SC. Those who truly do that, have their head so far up their own ...es that they can inspect their own tonsils from within.
Post by: Serendipity on July 31, 2017, 03:34:31 PM
Derek's been saying it for 2 years already. Let's see where we are in another 12 months.
This again?
Do we need to remind you that when analysts make predictions, it's based on info "on hand at the time"?
When I said that back in Oct 2015, that was before a bunch of whales stuck in Sunk Cost Falllacy, decided to keep giving them money, even as CIG continued to use deception and trickery to aid that effort. And it's only now some of you are feigning shock and surprise that it's precisely what they've been doing all this time.
Now 2.8 years late, and $90.5M over budget, please explain to me HOW they would still be operational at the end of Jan 2016, after having raised $107M (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1tMAP0fg-AKScI3S3VjrDW3OaLO4zgBA1RSYoQOQoNSI/htmlview#).
So yes, in a way, I was right. This is evidenced by the fact that the project is late, is nowhere near completion, and has raised an additional $48M since end of Jan 2016. If backers had stopped giving them money, the project, for all intent and purposes, would most likely be dead by now.QuoteThe client can be hacked to work offline. It removes the server limitations and provides a smooth gaming experience.
Jesus H. Christ on crutches, man! Did you have a partial lobotomy? Because, damn. This is an online only game. And you're talking about hacking offline - which means no other players, as well as a "smooth gaming experience" as a result of the hack?QuoteYes it's a resource hog but that never stopped Crysis shipping millions of copies.
That's not what is making it raise money. Get a grip.QuoteCleverly using collateral to get a loan to save money on exchange rates isn't a sign they're in financial trouble. Mass lay offs and stories of non payment of wages would be a sign of financial trouble.
Except that's not what they did. And only complete morons believe the rubbish explanation that Ortwin, who has every reason to lie, as they have done many times in the past, gave. If it wasn't such a big deal, WHY did he feel the need to come out on a SUNDAY to address a furor that I apparently started when I tweeted and wrote about the loan?
The information available at the time was that CIG held end of year sales that raised millions. It had happened the last two years and was about to happen again. What analysis didn't spot this very simple and obvious fact? Analysis that was patently useless.
Your comment about being over budget are ridiculous when it's on record that they will use all money raised to make the game. Just because they stopped stretch goals at 65 million, doesn't mean that was the game's budget. The budget is set by the backers. The backers keep funding. The budget keeps increasing. It's quite simple. 'Late' could be argued the same.
Saying 'if backers stopped giving them money' is like saying if the Earth's atmosphere suddenly had no oxygen we'd all die. Well duh! Why would anyone think funding would instantly dry up after making 30+ million a year for a couple of years? That's shockingly bad analysis. So you say in a way you were right...whilst being completely wrong! By an order of magnitude almost so far. 3 months projected, currently not far off being 30. And you say I should get a grip?
Like I've said before, we'll have to wait and see. There is no other option. We wait and if they collapse before producing games, you were right. If they don't and we're still here discussing the game and company in 12 months, then I guess you were wrong.
If the loan indeed was a wise decision, CIG would have made a public statement, because, of course, it was a wise decision. So publically telling about it should boost the morale of both backers and investors. Why hide good news?
But, they didn't. They kept quiet. Until the news broke and they had to issue a statement about it. Not to boost morale, but to prevent people actually loosing morale because it wasn't a good deal, but a shitty one. A desperate move to keep afloat yet another month. Now, that's a good reason to not tell about it. As they tried.
Again, only time will tell which story is correct. You think another month has been bought so you think it's curtains by the end of August? Will Gamescom provide another month or two? What about citizencon? 3.0 Being released? Then a Christmas sale. Does that mean another 4 or 5 months in total? So we're into 2018 already. What then? Is it curtains in January? Let me know, we can set a reminder.
I want to draw attention to this, because this is what our host has been bitching about; this bizarre contorting of reality that you usually get when you read Cthulhu Mythos tomes.QuoteThe client can be hacked to work offline. It removes the server limitations and provides a smooth gaming experience.
Jesus H. Christ on crutches, man! Did you have a partial lobotomy? Because, damn. This is an online only game. And you're talking about hacking offline - which means no other players, as well as a "smooth gaming experience" as a result of the hack?
Swap out SC for ANY online/MMO game name, and insert it in, and think about it.
'The World of Warcraft client provides a smooth gaming experience when you hack it to run offline!'
Jesus Christ, Serendipity, LOOK AT WHAT YOU JUST SAID. This is supposed to be an ONLINE game. That's like talking about how awesome it is to play Team Fortress 2 or PlayerUnknown's Battlegrounds offline! (Yes, I know you can play TF2 offline to practice, and I bet PUBG works that way too; but that's not exactly playing the game, is it?)
I'm looking at what I said and it just says that the game, without an online component runs reasonably well. Huge maps. Millions of kilometres of space. It works. The netcode is poop, we know this. CIG knows this. Can it be fixed? They reckon so. We shall see in time.
I like to play chess with myself. For some reason, I always win :D
The thing that bothers me most however, is that I don't think Serendipity is playing devil's advocate here. If he is, I'd have to applaud him, but my best guess is that he really truly madly believes everything he says about CIG/SC. Those who truly do that, have their head so far up their own ...es that they can inspect their own tonsils from within.
I'm just presenting my opinions, my head is firmly on my shoulders and I assess everything I've read and seen about this project. I think they're going to produce an interesting gaming experience in time. I think it's going to be pretty good. I don't blindly believe everything from CIG but I also don't assume they're lying everytime they communicate something either. I've always been a very trusting person and if I see something that makes me believe the companies about to collapse or there is an insurmountable challenge they'll never overcome then I'll admit it. Right now that's not how I feel or think about the project.
Guess what, only time will tell.
As to why I bother well, we're all having fun here I think, you can laugh at me and I can roll my eyes at you. I'm not about to start insulting anyone or raging, it's only a video game after all.
Post by: StanTheMan on July 31, 2017, 06:49:21 PM
Hi Serendipity, so you think CIG are being completely honest with their backers?
I believe they're honest in the sense that plans, scopes and timeframes change, often without warning or any clue to the necessities. I believe they do their best to build a game under intense scrutiny and vitriol. I believe lots try to find as many inconsistencies as possible with comments from a large company who's internal communication can be improved.
Basically, yes I do. Errors have been made. Guestimates have been poor. Things have changed but on the whole they're just a game dev company trying to make a game.
Professionals don't make "errors" so often.
It is the very essence of being professional to know what you are doing MOST OF THE TIME !
And when you say that people have been funding the game on a regular basis and will (probably) continue to, why do you imagine there is such uproar when CIG announce a change to a ship/jpeg ?
If people are funding the game to the tune of hundreds and thousands of $ year upon year without an expectation of a product being delivered to a somewhat agreed spec, why would changes to ships matter so much to so many ?
Post by: dsmart on July 31, 2017, 07:36:38 PM
I like to play chess with myself. For some reason, I always win :D
The thing that bothers me most however, is that I don't think Serendipity is playing devil's advocate here. If he is, I'd have to applaud him, but my best guess is that he really truly madly believes everything he says about CIG/SC. Those who truly do that, have their head so far up their own ...es that they can inspect their own tonsils from within.
Yeah, I agree. It's just so amazing. :yikes:
Post by: Serendipity on August 01, 2017, 12:52:23 AM
Hi Serendipity, so you think CIG are being completely honest with their backers?
I believe they're honest in the sense that plans, scopes and timeframes change, often without warning or any clue to the necessities. I believe they do their best to build a game under intense scrutiny and vitriol. I believe lots try to find as many inconsistencies as possible with comments from a large company who's internal communication can be improved.
Basically, yes I do. Errors have been made. Guestimates have been poor. Things have changed but on the whole they're just a game dev company trying to make a game.
Professionals don't make "errors" so often.
It is the very essence of being professional to know what you are doing MOST OF THE TIME !
And when you say that people have been funding the game on a regular basis and will (probably) continue to, why do you imagine there is such uproar when CIG announce a change to a ship/jpeg ?
If people are funding the game to the tune of hundreds and thousands of $ year upon year without an expectation of a product being delivered to a somewhat agreed spec, why would changes to ships matter so much to so many ?
Pretty much every game of the last 10 years has been delayed from the original projections. Is there not a single professional within the gaming industry? Derek's own LOD has a trailer saying 2012 without release even now. It's par for the course.
No-one is saying they don't expect delivery of a product and those who suggest they've had their monies worth from the forums and current alpha are obviously a little strange. That's not me. I expect a game and I expect a decent game with most of the planned features.
Rage about changing ships is in some cases justified I suppose, I'm not bothered enough to care. My ship will be alright to start with but some people need to have an advantage over others, it's the nature of a lot of gamers. Getting overly emotional over a video game is not in my DNA. It's just a video game.
I like to play chess with myself. For some reason, I always win :D
The thing that bothers me most however, is that I don't think Serendipity is playing devil's advocate here. If he is, I'd have to applaud him, but my best guess is that he really truly madly believes everything he says about CIG/SC. Those who truly do that, have their head so far up their own ...es that they can inspect their own tonsils from within.
Yeah, I agree. It's just so amazing. :yikes:
No answers for my questions? I'll ask again for ease. What kind of financial analysis missed the previous 2 years funding spikes and didn't factor them into projections? Is it the same analysis you're using to this day for your predictions? Do you still, honestly expect imminent financial collapse despite full knowledge of Gamescom, citizencon and 3.0 release funding spikes?
Bonus question: What was the event that is causing the extinction and where is this extinction if, as is becoming obvious, due to aforementioned upcoming funding spikes, they 'survive' into next year?
Post by: GaryII on August 01, 2017, 02:33:54 AM
Do you still, honestly expect imminent financial collapse despite full knowledge of Gamescom, citizencon and 3.0 release funding spikes?
Personally I am very interested what sweet lies CR will tell us at Gamecon and Citcon this year to hype up backers and get their money, especially if v3.0 turns out to be missing a lot of promised features, deadlines (dec 2016 for v3.0 was promised last year :D) and will run <30fps...
And where is SQ42 in 2017...dead ?!
Post by: Serendipity on August 01, 2017, 02:51:50 AM
Do you still, honestly expect imminent financial collapse despite full knowledge of Gamescom, citizencon and 3.0 release funding spikes?
Personally I am very interested what sweet lies CR will tell us at Gamecon and Citcon this year to hype up backers and get their money, especially if v3.0 turns out to be missing a lot of promised features, deadlines (dec 2016 for v3.0 was promised last year :D) and will run <30fps...
And where is SQ42 in 2017...dead ?!
I'm not going to defend Chris' timeframe estimates because they're patently awful but I'm also not going to concede he's definitely lied either. It's possible he lied outright and doesn't care about backlash from his community when the estimated dates come and go, (notice the word estimate there, no promises ever get made), but I'm not sure that's the most feasible explanation. It's more likely their internal schedule, now public, was and still is, overly optimistic and aggressive but he threw it out there anyway. I don't know. I don't really care. We got AC in the end. We got 2.0 in the end. We got Star Marine in the end. We'll get 3.0 in the end. Good things come to those who wait.
FPS will improve with better netcode being worked on so it might be performance poor although on the other hand Sandi's twitter post about the multi player test recently looked to be doing ok.
Squadron 42 isn't coming this year imho, not enough hype and promotion now for an end of year launch. Again, not the first studio to suffer delays and they won't be the last. They are building two games with never done before cryengine technology. I can give them a break. I'm in no rush.
Post by: GaryII on August 01, 2017, 03:12:20 AM
FPS will improve with better netcode being worked on so it might be performance poor although on the other hand Sandi's twitter post about the multi player test recently looked to be doing ok.
Squadron 42 isn't coming this year imho, not enough hype and promotion now for an end of year launch. Again, not the first studio to suffer delays and they won't be the last. They are building two games with never done before cryengine technology. I can give them a break. I'm in no rush.
Yeah, that Sandi twitter clears all up :D
how many years you are willing to wait 5, 10 or maybe 20 years ?!
Maybe I am too old school, but I prefer to check actual result and that is 2.6.3 today...that has:
1) Star marine - bad FPS game/tech demo compared to today AAA fps games - game mode that nobody asked for..
2) PU - with almost no gameplay not even one star system is finished...
3) and other "tech demo modes" AC and racing...
and all this after 5+ years dev time and 155m backer money + loans.....I say not a good result..
In the end - looks like after No Man Sky fiasco some people like always did not learn anything and still believe in hype and empty promises...
Post by: Motto on August 01, 2017, 03:29:13 AM
Basically, the same will happen with SC. The big difference being that NMS actually came out and is still being developed and supported.
Here's one happy camper though :lol: (https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/comments/6qoscs/perspective_30_is_the_secondtolast_phase_in_scs/)
Post by: Ghostmaker on August 01, 2017, 03:45:00 AM
Professionals don't make "errors" so often.Reminds me of something I heard once.
It is the very essence of being professional to know what you are doing MOST OF THE TIME !
Amateurs practice until they get it right.
Experts practice until they can't get it wrong.
Post by: dsmart on August 01, 2017, 04:16:24 AM
The information available at the time was that CIG held end of year sales that raised millions. It had happened the last two years and was about to happen again. What analysis didn't spot this very simple and obvious fact? Analysis that was patently useless.
And that changes the analysis how exactly?
Pay attention. If whales weren't still giving them money AFTER they had already raised $65M which was to build the fully over-scoped game, the project would most likely be dead by now, as that was over two years ago.
When a Wall St analyst flags a stock as a sell, do you think it remains as a sell forever, or is it based on a "going concern" which can change at any time? That's how that works.
Your comment about being over budget are ridiculous when it's on record that they will use all money raised to make the game. Just because they stopped stretch goals at 65 million, doesn't mean that was the game's budget. The budget is set by the backers. The backers keep funding. The budget keeps increasing. It's quite simple. 'Late' could be argued the same.
That's pure an utter rubbish, and I'm sure you know it.
The full scope as of Nov 2014, was $65M. That's the budget. Just like when he asked for $2M on Kickstarter.
To suggest that he needed more, but just asked for less, is as ridiculous, as it is insane.
Backers giving money isn't increasing the budget; it's them buying stuff that's on sale. That's how DLC works. Except that in the case of Star Citizen, it's all pre-purchase with hopes that it actually ends up in the game. What makes you think if they weren't selling things, that backers would still be giving them money? How does that actually work?
Christ, even Roberts has gone on the record claiming that if the project was more than 2-3 years, it would be stale; and that the increased scope won't change the delivery schedule, and that....forget it, you know all this stuff already.
Saying 'if backers stopped giving them money' is like saying if the Earth's atmosphere suddenly had no oxygen we'd all die. Well duh! Why would anyone think funding would instantly dry up after making 30+ million a year for a couple of years? That's shockingly bad analysis. So you say in a way you were right...whilst being completely wrong! By an order of magnitude almost so far. 3 months projected, currently not far off being 30. And you say I should get a grip?
Either you're not very bright, are delusional, or you're just trolling us. You're changing the subject and making it about something else. Fact is they asked for an amount of money, then got more based on promises which were tied to the increase in scope. Beyond the scope, any additional money increases the budget.
It's amazing to me that you believe that a movie production with a $100M budget, that needs $50M more to complete, isn't over budget because the production company just happened to have an extra $50M lying around, or coming from loans and/or investments.
Companies are in the business of making money. The project didn't keep raising money on it's own by doing nothing.
During KS it raised money based on stretch goals to $6M.
After KS is continued raising money based on stretch goals to $65M
Then it continued raising money based on sales of JPEGs, which some of them turned into 3D models, which some of them ended up in the game. Now they're at $155M.
By all accounts, at $65M which was the FULL AND COMPLETE BUDGET for the game, it's now $90.5M OVER BUDGET. And that's an indisputable fact.
Like I've said before, we'll have to wait and see. There is no other option. We wait and if they collapse before producing games, you were right. If they don't and we're still here discussing the game and company in 12 months, then I guess you were wrong.
Why would I be wrong if we are here in 12 months? Not all scams are short term.
I would be wrong if they ever shipped the game pitched. By the fact that they've cut out most of the original features, coupled with the fact that they have switched engines, raised more than my $150M projection etc, has proven me right already. Those were my original claims since July 2015 (http://www.dereksmart.com/2015/07/interstellar-citizens/). The only thing left now is to see how long they last before they collapse because only zealots expects that there will ever be anything resembling a "game" coming from this train wreck.
Post by: dsmart on August 01, 2017, 04:38:09 AM
Pretty much every game of the last 10 years has been delayed from the original projections. Is there not a single professional within the gaming industry? Derek's own LOD has a trailer saying 2012 without release even now. It's par for the course.
That's a false equivalent (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_equivalence).
Comparing an indie game to one with a triple-A budget and team to match, is a non-starter, and a flawed argument. Yet you guys keep doing it.
Considering that this is LoD changelog (http://lodgame.com/changelog/) (be sure to go to the archives), while this is Star Citizen changelog (https://robertsspaceindustries.com/patch-notes). At peak, we were less than 16. They were over 500.
LoD has a fixed budged, a fixed design scope which hasn’t changed, and 3000AD isn’t beholden to the public for its funding, scope, or delivery schedule. And by the very nature of Early Access, I could cancel it tomorrow, or keep it going for the next decade, with zero repercussions as that’s the difference between Star Citizen and LoD.
I sell my games. I don’t and never have crowd-funded them.
LoD was in Early Access when we enabled SteamWorks backend for testing, and those who wanted to get in on the ground floor, were able to buy in if they so choose. We switched to CBT when we were done and had enough metrics to continue with our backend testing.
It was never on Greenlight
It was never in crowd funding
Early Access isn’t crowd funding
Saying that just because games can be delayed, so it's OK for Star Citizen to be delayed, is just you people making excuses. Delays are perfectly OK. However, in the case of Star Citizen, it's more about the lies and the over scope, than it is about the delays. Too bad you can't see that.
No answers for my questions? I'll ask again for ease. What kind of financial analysis missed the previous 2 years funding spikes and didn't factor them into projections? Is it the same analysis you're using to this day for your predictions? Do you still, honestly expect imminent financial collapse despite full knowledge of Gamescom, citizencon and 3.0 release funding spikes?
Because CONSISTENTLY selling JPEGS in order to raise money was NOT a thing in Oct 2015. And as with all things related to analysis, could never have been factored into the premise. Then you add in the fact that a group of whales, some of who we suspect are engaged in money laundering, would continue to buy JPEGs. That's how analysts engaging in futures, stock shorting, and hedge funds, predict trends. Based on the info you have, you either gain or lose. This is why subtle things like a buyout rumor, or a key hire, can tank a stock. As I type this, Wells Fargo stock just took another dive because another fiasco (auto loan insurance) was just discovered. Why didn't analysts predict that after the last two Wells Fargo fiasco in the past months which led to firings, huge fines etc, that would would be another one that nobody saw coming?
Bonus question: What was the event that is causing the extinction and where is this extinction if, as is becoming obvious, due to aforementioned upcoming funding spikes, they 'survive' into next year?
The Star Citizen Extinction Level Event (http://www.dereksmart.org/2016/04/star-citizen-the-ele/), has been explained many times already. It is an on-going process that started when Chris Roberts increased the scope of the game, using an incapable engine, which increased the time to delivery, thus increasing the CHANCES OF FAILURE. As an E.L.E. by definition is a gradual process, that's how I created that analogy back in April 2016.
Bonus Reading: Wikipedia - Extinction Level Event (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extinction_event)
Post by: Serendipity on August 01, 2017, 05:22:48 AM
FPS will improve with better netcode being worked on so it might be performance poor although on the other hand Sandi's twitter post about the multi player test recently looked to be doing ok.
Squadron 42 isn't coming this year imho, not enough hype and promotion now for an end of year launch. Again, not the first studio to suffer delays and they won't be the last. They are building two games with never done before cryengine technology. I can give them a break. I'm in no rush.
Yeah, that Sandi twitter clears all up :D
how many years you are willing to wait 5, 10 or maybe 20 years ?!
Maybe I am too old school, but I prefer to check actual result and that is 2.6.3 today...that has:
1) Star marine - bad FPS game/tech demo compared to today AAA fps games - game mode that nobody asked for..
2) PU - with almost no gameplay not even one star system is finished...
3) and other "tech demo modes" AC and racing...
and all this after 5+ years dev time and 155m backer money + loans.....I say not a good result..
In the end - looks like after No Man Sky fiasco some people like always did not learn anything and still believe in hype and empty promises...
1) FPS was part of the original pitch. It's one of the reasons I backed. Getting out of your seat and shooting stuff. Best way to include it is to make a separate 'module' for testing. I see no problems here. Yes it's bare bones but stuff will be added in time.
2) 2.0 was about getting the large map working. 3.0+ is about adding game play.
3) Yes...and? Both good test beds for tweaking and balancing.
Quote
And that changes the analysis how exactly?
You guaranteed they wouldn't last 90 days. Shortly after your utterly unfounded and ridiculous claim, CIG did what they'd done for the previous two years and held sales that earned them around 10 million in a couple of months. Even if they literally had nothing when you made the claim, the knowledge of upcoming sales should have been used to realise they'd probably survive a little longer than 3 months. Terrible, terrible analysis.
Quote
That's pure an utter rubbish, and I'm sure you know it.
The full scope as of Nov 2014, was $65M. That's the budget. Just like when he asked for $2M on Kickstarter.
To suggest that he needed more, but just asked for less, is as ridiculous, as it is insane.
Are you suggesting that nothing has changed in the game since the last stretch goal? They haven't changed from research into PG planets to getting it done? This didn't increase the cost of making the game? No land bikes or vehicles have been added? No new ships? Did they all arrive for free? More money received getting used to build more content is exactly what an increase in budget means. They aren't pocketing the difference but using it to build more stuff. Now you're just being silly.
Quote
By all accounts, at $65M which was the FULL AND COMPLETE BUDGET for the game, it's now $90.5M OVER BUDGET. And that's an indisputable fact.
No no and no. 65 million was when they stopped doing stretch goals. They've always said that every penny received during development would go towards development. That's increasing the game's budget as more money becomes available. Even sillier.
Quote
The only thing left now is to see how long they last before they collapse because only zealots expects that there will ever be anything resembling a "game" coming from this train wreck.
You're letting your confirmation bias shine through here, it's dazzling. You've been spouting this nonsense for 2 years and the game is still getting made. 3.0 is on the way and funding continues. Your opinion is fine and all but there's rather a lot of people still expecting and believing a game is on it's way. They ain't all zealots. Hyperbole, heresay and confirmation bias skewed opinion is all there is to see here.
Quote
Because CONSISTENTLY selling JPEGS in order to raise money was NOT a thing in Oct 2015. And as with all things related to analysis, could never have been factored into the premise.
Pure lie. Have a look here and notice very regular sales from around June 2014.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1tMAP0fg-AKScI3S3VjrDW3OaLO4zgBA1RSYoQOQoNSI/edit#gid=1694467207
Quote
That's a false equivalent.
Comparing an indie game to one with a triple-A budget and team to match, is a non-starter, and a flawed argument. Yet you guys keep doing it.
That's not what I'm doing. I'm comparing estimated release dates not the games themselves. Come on, try harder, this is too easy. You projected, 'join the fight 2012', I'm sure you don't need me to link your own video. It's 5 years+ past that. It doesn't matter what size studio or what type of game. Your projection was way off, there's was too. Other devs and companies also get it wrong all the time. How you fund development is totally immaterial to the fact your release projection was massively wrong.
Quote
Saying that just because games can be delayed, so it's OK for Star Citizen to be delayed, is just you people making excuses. Delays are perfectly OK. However, in the case of Star Citizen, it's more about the lies and the over scope, than it is about the delays.
Are you serious? You can't be. Delays are ok but for this one example they're not? Puh-leeease. Let's at least try and treat everyone via the same standards shall we? Did you lie when you added 2012 to your video? Was that a deliberate attempt to make people buy your TAK stuff knowing full well it wasn't ready to release? Shall I take to twitter and call you a lying bastard and scam artist?
Post by: GaryII on August 01, 2017, 05:38:35 AM
1) FPS was part of the original pitch. It's one of the reasons I backed. Getting out of your seat and shooting stuff. Best way to include it is to make a separate 'module' for testing. I see no problems here. Yes it's bare bones but stuff will be added in time.
2) 2.0 was about getting the large map working. 3.0+ is about adding game play.
3) Yes...and? Both good test beds for tweaking and balancing.
1) In PU you can do that already...then why we need SM again ?! How much backers money was wasted on this generic crap ?
2) test beds - thats all we have in dev year 5 ?! Are you serious ?!
"Evil publishers" release full games in 5 years, SC is only in Pre-alfa state after 5 years..
This is direct result of lack of any planning, feature creep, neverending refactoring and "polishing" (in the end everything is unpolished anyway :P), focusing on jpg sales...
Post by: Serendipity on August 01, 2017, 06:04:07 AM
1) FPS was part of the original pitch. It's one of the reasons I backed. Getting out of your seat and shooting stuff. Best way to include it is to make a separate 'module' for testing. I see no problems here. Yes it's bare bones but stuff will be added in time.
2) 2.0 was about getting the large map working. 3.0+ is about adding game play.
3) Yes...and? Both good test beds for tweaking and balancing.
1) In PU you can do that already...then why we need SM again ?! How much backers money was wasted on this generic crap ?
2) test beds - thats all we have in dev year 5 ?! Are you serious ?!
"Evil publishers" release full games in 5 years, SC is only in Pre-alfa state after 5 years..
This is direct result of lack of any planning, feature creep, neverending refactoring and "polishing" (in the end everything is unpolished anyway :P), focusing on jpg sales...
You can't think the devs would get as much data from occasional shots at Kareah as from Star Marine matches, that would be silly.
Year 5 after building a company and increasing the scope DRAMATICALLY due to increased funding.
The guys creating the sales aren't the ones building the game.
What they're building now is completely different to what was originally envisaged not because of a lack of planning but because they never expected to get as much funding as they got which gave them the opportunity to make more. Much more. Fully explorable palnetoids anyone?
Post by: Narrenbart on August 01, 2017, 06:11:53 AM
Hello Serendipity1) FPS was part of the original pitch. It's one of the reasons I backed. Getting out of your seat and shooting stuff. Best way to include it is to make a separate 'module' for testing. I see no problems here. Yes it's bare bones but stuff will be added in time.
2) 2.0 was about getting the large map working. 3.0+ is about adding game play.
3) Yes...and? Both good test beds for tweaking and balancing.
1) In PU you can do that already...then why we need SM again ?! How much backers money was wasted on this generic crap ?
2) test beds - thats all we have in dev year 5 ?! Are you serious ?!
"Evil publishers" release full games in 5 years, SC is only in Pre-alfa state after 5 years..
This is direct result of lack of any planning, feature creep, neverending refactoring and "polishing" (in the end everything is unpolished anyway :P), focusing on jpg sales...
You can't think the devs would get as much data from occasional shots at Kareah as from Star Marine matches, that would be silly.
Year 5 after building a company and increasing the scope DRAMATICALLY due to increased funding.
The guys creating the sales aren't the ones building the game.
What they're building now is completely different to what was originally envisaged not because of a lack of planning but because they never expected to get as much funding as they got which gave them the opportunity to make more. Much more. Fully explorable palnetoids anyone?
(Just want to test if this is a bot)
Post by: GaryII on August 01, 2017, 06:38:13 AM
Fully explorable palnetoids anyone?
Elite Dangerous (with great VR and HOTAS support) and even NMS already have done this at high level.
CR and team talks a lot sometimes mocks other "low fidelity" games, but haven't actually done anything at this point.
anyway will see can they beat those games and other "low fidelity" games in actual fight...with their "never done before" tech...
Post by: Serendipity on August 01, 2017, 06:44:13 AM
Now pass the engine oil. I'm getting a bit squeaky over here.
Edit: Yes I own elite with a season pass. I've spent more on it than on my avenger. Still spent much more time playing SC's 'broken tech demo' than elite.
Post by: BigM on August 01, 2017, 07:53:49 AM
CR decided on KS so he wouldn't be boxed in by a corporation that decides on what the bottom line cost will be and force a release!
CR stated this would be the most open development for the backers!
CR promised if we got to a certain date, he would release how much cash they have in reserve! That date has been reached and passed with no sign of any real transparency!
So if this game is transparent how come we don't know how much cash they have burned through? How much does every employee make?
For a game that is supposed to be upfront to the backers, how come all I read about is guesses by backers on what is going on?
Any person that questions anything about promises made in the past by CR is jumped on attacked and told they have no clue about development.
So the bottom line by a LOT of old and current backers we know this has become the most untransparent game in gaming history.
There is NO publisher in this industry that would have allowed this game to go forward after all the broken promises and allow any more cash to be funded by them.
So am hoping the people working at CIG would either start being fully transparent or stop comparing it to other games who have to show results to the money providers who backed them.
Granted am just a gamer that has been through a lot of alphas, betas, and can state with out a doubt this is nothing I have ever seen in all my days of testing and being involved in testing and playing the games I love. So yeah am not as smart as you guys that develop and create the games I play. But even an old gamer like me know there is to many issues and lies going around with SC and a guy like CR that has to this day never took a game to release while in control of the company!
In my opinion, anyone that still backs this and trusts CR has to be a little delusional!
So in closing all I can say about SC and CR is.....WoW!
Post by: dsmart on August 01, 2017, 08:31:38 AM
You guaranteed they wouldn't last 90 days. Shortly after your utterly unfounded and ridiculous claim, CIG did what they'd done for the previous two years and held sales that earned them around 10 million in a couple of months. Even if they literally had nothing when you made the claim, the knowledge of upcoming sales should have been used to realise they'd probably survive a little longer than 3 months. Terrible, terrible analysis.
Guaranteed? Really. Go ahead, please show me that guarantee.
And you're still going around in circles. The project was already FULLY FUNDED since Nov 2014. My comment was in Oct 2015. They continued to use dubious means, which they continue to this very day, to keep raising money based on LIES and DECEPTIVE PRACTICES.
That's the difference and defining factor; as much as you would like to ignore it.
Your argument is that when an analyst downgrades a stock, the company should just stop doing business right away.
Are you suggesting that nothing has changed in the game since the last stretch goal? They haven't changed from research into PG planets to getting it done? This didn't increase the cost of making the game? No land bikes or vehicles have been added? No new ships? Did they all arrive for free? More money received getting used to build more content is exactly what an increase in budget means. They aren't pocketing the difference but using it to build more stuff. Now you're just being silly.
Nice deflection there. We're not talking about progress, we're talking about the fact that the game is 2.8 yrs late and $90.5M over budget. We don't care about progress or lack thereof during this period. They could put a man on the moon, and it won't change those facts.
You're the one being laughably silly because you're basically saying that anything above $65M isn't an increase in budget....because reasons.
No no and no. 65 million was when they stopped doing stretch goals. They've always said that every penny received during development would go towards development. That's increasing the game's budget as more money becomes available. Even sillier.
Quoted for posterity only because it's truly a sight to behold. Wow, I don't even.
QuoteBecause CONSISTENTLY selling JPEGS in order to raise money was NOT a thing in Oct 2015. And as with all things related to analysis, could never have been factored into the premise.Pure lie. Have a look here and notice very regular sales from around June 2014.
Which part of "consistently" confused you? Not to mention the fact that, again, you're going in circles by ignoring the fact that had they not been doing it consistently (which even the funding chart shows), they won't have raised this much money after $65M. If they were making enough money selling subs, ships which are playable in the game, and game packages ($45 and $60), there would be no need to be selling "futures" in the form of JPEG concepts.
That's not what I'm doing. I'm comparing estimated release dates not the games themselves. Come on, try harder, this is too easy. You projected, 'join the fight 2012', I'm sure you don't need me to link your own video. It's 5 years+ past that. It doesn't matter what size studio or what type of game. Your projection was way off, there's was too. Other devs and companies also get it wrong all the time. How you fund development is totally immaterial to the fact your release projection was massively wrong.
Nice try. You're ignoring the context of the argument that YOU brought up. YOU compared LoD having a 2012 release date to Star Citizen being delayed. Even though you know NOTHING about the game's development, nor the fact that we switched engines etc. And in there, despite the fact that it's obvious that we don't have a release date bearing down on us, unlike Star Citizen, you still went ahead with the comparison anyway. Because reasons. Now you're trying to explain the nonsense away.
And no, my projection wasn't "way off"; and if you knew anything about the game's development, you would know these things because unlike CIG, I regularly write blog updates and notes explaining precisely what is going on, why, and how. I am not selling the game, so I have no incentive to obfuscate its development in order to keep backers off my back.
Are you serious? You can't be. Delays are ok but for this one example they're not? Puh-leeease. Let's at least try and treat everyone via the same standards shall we?
Quoted for posterity only because it's truly a sight to behold.
Did you lie when you added 2012 to your video? Was that a deliberate attempt to make people buy your TAK stuff knowing full well it wasn't ready to release? Shall I take to twitter and call you a lying bastard and scam artist?
Oh nice try.
- LoD was announced Feb 1, 2011 (http://3000ad.com/2011/02/line-of-defense-announced/).
- LoD trailer was released March 1, 2012 (http://3000ad.com/2012/03/line-defense-official-trailer-pc-gamer-exclusive/) - exclusive to PC Gamer
- LoD was released on Steam Early Access Sept 16, 2014 (http://3000ad.com/2014/09/line-of-defense-early-access-release/) as a way to use SteamWorks backend (SteamWorks services used by LoD (http://lodgame.com/faqs/steam-services/))
- It was explained on the Steam and LoD game page, why we had to use Early Access (http://lodgame.com/faqs/what-is-early-access/). And anyone who wanted to get in on the ground floor and follow the game's development, could buy any tier they wanted (http://lodgame.com/store/).
- In April 2016, we completed our SteamWorks integration, then disabled the store page after Valve streamlined the process for having games built and tested with SteamWorks, without needing it to be live to the public. We were then officially CBT access only (http://lodgame.com/news/16-04-29-01/). Which, btw, is why games like Lawbreakers (http://store.steampowered.com/app/350280/LawBreakers/) are currently being tested and built exclusively for SteamWorks, while doing public pre-orders though gamers do NOT have access to the game. The only way to test the game, is via CBT keys given out by the devs. Even if you pre-ordered, you aren't entitled to a key to play the game before release.
And unlike CIG, which had to be FORCED to give refunds, anyone who bought LoD, can get a no-questions asked Steam refund based on Valve's own guideliness for released or Early Access games (http://store.steampowered.com/earlyaccessfaq).
BONUS: Unlike CIG which not only didn't tell backers it was going to switch engines, then LIED about it, though I don't have to, I've written several dev blogs (http://lodgame.com/blog/) about what is going (http://lodgame.com/17-05-31-state-of-play/) on with our game engine as it relates to our PC and console plans. And none of it is fluff, and we don't have backers to lie to in order to keep raising money. It's just simple, clear communication.
Post by: dsmart on August 01, 2017, 08:38:18 AM
You can't get out of your seat in Elite and you can't compare NMS to either. That's a cartoon. So no, nobody has done what CIG are doing before in a single game and certainly not to the visual beauty.
So uhm, what about Call Of Duty Infinite War and Mass Effect Andromeda?
So this tech innovation in Star Citizen is about explorable planetoids and being about to enter/exit ships in fps mode? :lol: :lol: :lol:
PLEASE list ALL the innovative tech in Star Citizen, which nobody has done before, so we can discuss them fully. It should be very interesting.
Post by: Motto on August 01, 2017, 08:51:08 AM
"Evil publishers" release full games in 5 years, SC is only in Pre-alfa state after 5 years...
This is direct result of lack of any planning, feature creep, neverending refactoring and "polishing" (in the end everything is unpolished anyway :P), focusing on jpg sales...
It goes beyond that. Somewhere along the line, Chris had an idea, a vision. He saw a kind of game that would combine several popular game-aspects into one. But he had no money to make it and knew for absolutely sure that no big company would dare to take another chance with him. And then came crowdfunding. Or maybe the vision came after crowdfunding, but who cares. Chris saw a window of opportunity and lauched his Kickstarter campaign. And then noticed he struck gold. His vision apparently appealed to a lot of people. However, Kickstarter has limitations and (legal) rules to abide by. That could hold him back in creating something to go with the vision. So, time to leave Kickstarter behind and start colleting the money directly.
And then it went off the rails. The money kept pooring in. With every wild idea, there it would come again. And again. And then Chris lost it. He probably thought that what he had envisioned would be doable. New modern techniques, clouds are everywhere, big publishers already basically doing it for years. How hard could it be? Money will buy everything, right? And boy, how nice it would be to prove everybody wrong and show them after all those years that he truly is the Master of Games. If they just give him the money and leave him be, he will prove it. Once and for all.
As an added bonus, they gave him so much money, he could add some family members to the payroll, and some old friends and put in some features that could help in another area as well. Let's demonstrate Hollywood I got skills at directing videoclips and have raw pure acting talent available at a snap with my fingertips. And still, every fart was a brilliant sound never heard before. Here's more money, do fart along!
So, he lost it. He started acting the big man who would show the world he could compete with the big companies. Opening multiple studios, going international, expanding his imperium. Because, I've laid down my vision, how hard can it be? As long as everybody does what I tell them to do, it'll turn out to be a huge success. Maybe a big company will buy RSI and then we'll be on our way to Hollywood.
And then it turned out to be really really hard to translate the dream into an actual working product. Having no clue whatsoever about, well, basically everything, it went all bad really quick. The money that should have lasted (them) for years went down the drain. Fast. Whoops. Oh no, Holy Fuck! Quick, let's keep everybody happy by sharing even more of my dreams and by jolly, if they are willing to pay for it, even better. Hell, we need them to because were having expenses we can't pay for long if we don't have a regular steady monthly incomeflow. So, draw pictures! Sell them. Doesn't matter if they can or will be converted to a actual useable item in the game (what game, hahahahaha, omg he's choking on it, somebody bring Chris some water) or just be a nice jpeg forever and ever, as long as it generates money.
Oh, now everything is falling apart. There's no way in hell we can actually build this game. We've been hiding it for years with small little things that need to be polished but the core of the game, we can't do it. We have the seats, the windows, some nice chrome parts and the little cupholder and you actually can buy coffee, but we can't build an engine. We started not with a normal V6 or V8, no we wanted to make a V12 but with Wankel technique. Never been done before. With reason, as it seems. And just to add some difficulty, we switched from gas to diesel, 'cause, you know, reasons, it all went so smoothly and shit and stuff. Now stop asking us when you can actually drive the car. It'll be finished when it's finished. However, those shiny wheelcaps that we draw? Yeah, we're not gonna make them, but we'll redraw them. And then they won't fit the wheels anymore, so we have to redo those too. Oops, now the wheels don't match the wheelcaps anymore. Hmm, let's look at a shop where you can buy hoodornaments first so people can toy with the carbody. A carbody that never will be attached to a working engine so you can actually drive that car around, but who cares.
As long as most of the people don't care if there ever will be a car, just ignore those screaming for a working engine. Fuck 'm. Fuck 'm all. After they give us their money of course. Then fuck 'm over once more. Call me when that isn't working anymore. I'll be on a yacht in Monaco probably, but call me anyway.
Post by: Serendipity on August 01, 2017, 01:24:12 PM
You guaranteed they wouldn't last 90 days. Shortly after your utterly unfounded and ridiculous claim, CIG did what they'd done for the previous two years and held sales that earned them around 10 million in a couple of months. Even if they literally had nothing when you made the claim, the knowledge of upcoming sales should have been used to realise they'd probably survive a little longer than 3 months. Terrible, terrible analysis.
Guaranteed? Really. Go ahead, please show me that guarantee.
(http://i.imgur.com/QVEnc9E.jpg)
And you're still going around in circles. The project was already FULLY FUNDED since Nov 2014. My comment was in Oct 2015. They continued to use dubious means, which they continue to this very day, to keep raising money based on LIES and DECEPTIVE PRACTICES.
I disagree. They offer an asset for sale that people can buy if they like. They say if it's ready to use in game or not. They say that nobody has to buy anything but a game package to play. All on the sale page. Nothing deceptive and not a single lie. You're just making things up now. It's a little bit desperate.
Your argument is that when an analyst downgrades a stock, the company should just stop doing business right away.No. My argument is there is, was and never will be a set budget for the game. The budget is set by how much funding they receive. This is on record as true. What you say is made up and stupid. Stopping the stretch goals at a certain point has no meaning on the game's budget. You're making things up again. It's looking even more desperate.
Are you suggesting that nothing has changed in the game since the last stretch goal? They haven't changed from research into PG planets to getting it done? This didn't increase the cost of making the game? No land bikes or vehicles have been added? No new ships? Did they all arrive for free? More money received getting used to build more content is exactly what an increase in budget means. They aren't pocketing the difference but using it to build more stuff. Now you're just being silly.
Nice deflection there. We're not talking about progress, we're talking about the fact that the game is 2.8 yrs late and $90.5M over budget. We don't care about progress or lack thereof during this period. They could put a man on the moon, and it won't change those facts.
You're the one being laughably silly because you're basically saying that anything above $65M isn't an increase in budget....because reasons.
It's not deflection. I'm trying to explain that if the budget was set at 65 million, as you ludicrously suggest, because that's when the stretch goals ended then how do we account for what's come since, like the fact we're getting planets instead of research into it plus all the extra ships that are going into the game since that point. All paid for...duh dumm durr...by the ever increasing budget supplied by the continued pledging.
What are you talking about? They consistently had sales from before Oct 2015. That's just a fact. Looking increasingly desperate with every counter claim fabrication right now.QuoteBecause CONSISTENTLY selling JPEGS in order to raise money was NOT a thing in Oct 2015. And as with all things related to analysis, could never have been factored into the premise.Pure lie. Have a look here and notice very regular sales from around June 2014.
Which part of "consistently" confused you? Not to mention the fact that, again, you're going in circles by ignoring the fact that had they not been doing it consistently (which even the funding chart shows), they won't have raised this much money after $65M. If they were making enough money selling subs, ships which are playable in the game, and game packages ($45 and $60), there would be no need to be selling "futures" in the form of JPEG concepts.
That's not what I'm doing. I'm comparing estimated release dates not the games themselves. Come on, try harder, this is too easy. You projected, 'join the fight 2012', I'm sure you don't need me to link your own video. It's 5 years+ past that. It doesn't matter what size studio or what type of game. Your projection was way off, there's was too. Other devs and companies also get it wrong all the time. How you fund development is totally immaterial to the fact your release projection was massively wrong.
Nice try. You're ignoring the context of the argument that YOU brought up. YOU compared LoD having a 2012 release date to Star Citizen being delayed. Even though you know NOTHING about the game's development, nor the fact that we switched engines etc. And in there, despite the fact that it's obvious that we don't have a release date bearing down on us, unlike Star Citizen, you still went ahead with the comparison anyway. Because reasons. Now you're trying to explain the nonsense away.
And no, my projection wasn't "way off"; and if you knew anything about the game's development, you would know these things because unlike CIG, I regularly write blog updates and notes explaining precisely what is going on, why, and how. I am not selling the game, so I have no incentive to obfuscate its development in order to keep backers off my back.
Why your estimate was 5 years off is completely irrelevant. My only point was that holding someone by the scruff of the neck whilst you scream in their face for missing a deadline when you have done exactly the same but with a longer delay is more than hypocritical, it's elephancritical!
Mostly irrelevant again. Why doesn't concern me. 'Join the fight 2012'. You're a liar. By your own standards.Did you lie when you added 2012 to your video? Was that a deliberate attempt to make people buy your TAK stuff knowing full well it wasn't ready to release? Shall I take to twitter and call you a lying bastard and scam artist?
Oh nice try.
- LoD was announced Feb 1, 2011 (http://3000ad.com/2011/02/line-of-defense-announced/).
- LoD trailer was released March 1, 2012 (http://3000ad.com/2012/03/line-defense-official-trailer-pc-gamer-exclusive/) - exclusive to PC Gamer
- LoD was released on Steam Early Access Sept 16, 2014 (http://3000ad.com/2014/09/line-of-defense-early-access-release/) as a way to use SteamWorks backend (SteamWorks services used by LoD (http://lodgame.com/faqs/steam-services/))
- It was explained on the Steam and LoD game page, why we had to use Early Access (http://lodgame.com/faqs/what-is-early-access/). And anyone who wanted to get in on the ground floor and follow the game's development, could buy any tier they wanted (http://lodgame.com/store/).
- In April 2016, we completed our SteamWorks integration, then disabled the store page after Valve streamlined the process for having games built and tested with SteamWorks, without needing it to be live to the public. We were then officially CBT access only (http://lodgame.com/news/16-04-29-01/). Which, btw, is why games like Lawbreakers (http://store.steampowered.com/app/350280/LawBreakers/) are currently being tested and built exclusively for SteamWorks, while doing public pre-orders though gamers do NOT have access to the game. The only way to test the game, is via CBT keys given out by the devs. Even if you pre-ordered, you aren't entitled to a key to play the game before release.
And unlike CIG, which had to be FORCED to give refunds, anyone who bought LoD, can get a no-questions asked Steam refund based on Valve's own guideliness for released or Early Access games (http://store.steampowered.com/earlyaccessfaq).
BONUS: Unlike CIG which not only didn't tell backers it was going to switch engines, then LIED about it, though I don't have to, I've written several dev blogs (http://lodgame.com/blog/) about what is going (http://lodgame.com/17-05-31-state-of-play/) on with our game engine as it relates to our PC and console plans. And none of it is fluff, and we don't have backers to lie to in order to keep raising money. It's just simple, clear communication.
Post by: Motto on August 01, 2017, 02:03:53 PM
Chris said, if you give me 65m, this is what you'll get for that. So people starting to give and after some time 65m was given. So he asked for a budget of 65m to build XYZ in promises. He didn't keep most of those promises, but as long as CIG has not spend over 65m until today, Chris has a budget left. Unfortunately, we don't know how much money CIG has spend until today. However, did Chris deliver as promised? No. Is it likely that they have spend over 65m until today? Yes. Therefore, did Chris deliver as promised within budget? No.
Now, the thing is, even after reaching 65m, money kept coming in. That is extra money to be spend on the game in general. We said we'd do 2 moons, let's make it 4. Stuff like that. The thing is, since there is no specification how those extra millions are to be spend in newly defined targets, they also can be allocated to previous existing targets. If one assumes that the extra money also is allocated for the original goals, then Chris did not deliver for the 65m and everything extra received since.
Since no specification has been made about the allocation of the extra money, one could argue that that all is extra money to be spend on other stuff. There is no way to tell how that money is spend, if at all.
Did Chris go over budget? We don't know since no financial disclosure has been given. Did he deliver as promised? No. Is it likely that the orginal 65m has been spend totally and that for some time now, the additional money has been used to keep up running CIG? Yes. Does that imply that Chris now spend over 65m and has not yet delivered what was agreed upon that he would deliver for 65m? Yes. So, is he over budget then? Yes. Plain and simple. This is Derek's view.
The argument that additional money has been spend to do extra, not-specified things, that as a result hinder the completion of the original promises, does not change the fact that still this project is most likely over original budget and original promises made. Despite his thoughts, backers did not give Chris a carte blache to do whatever he wanted after 65m was reached. He could do that but he had to keep his original promises first. Nobody gave permission to go for changing the orginal promises. If he wanted to change the goalposts for the original targets, he should have asked. Bottomline now is that CIG still hasn't delivered as promised (fact) and can't deliver what was promised. Not at the 65m mark and not with an extra 90m (very good guess).
Is this speculation? Yes, it is. It can only be checked and verified with the actual financial data. That will tell how much money in total was invested and spend. The thing is, we'll only get those details after CIG falls over and simply by falling over, Chris proves he couldn't deliver within specs or budget.
However, since the funding chart is the only way CIG talks about their income stream, let's all pretend that they actually have received 155m so far. Not much to show for if this current 2.6.3 alpha build is all they can deliver right now. Unless they haven't spend that much money in the first place, but that'll be highly unlikely regarding the offices and staffcount.
Post by: dsmart on August 01, 2017, 03:48:43 PM
You guaranteed they wouldn't last 90 days. Shortly after your utterly unfounded and ridiculous claim, CIG did what they'd done for the previous two years and held sales that earned them around 10 million in a couple of months. Even if they literally had nothing when you made the claim, the knowledge of upcoming sales should have been used to realise they'd probably survive a little longer than 3 months. Terrible, terrible analysis.
Guaranteed? Really. Go ahead, please show me that guarantee.
(http://i.imgur.com/QVEnc9E.jpg)
:eng101:
hy·per·bo·le (http://www.dictionary.com/browse/hyperbole)
hīˈpərbəlē/
noun
exaggerated statements or claims not meant to be taken literally.
synonyms: exaggeration, overstatement, magnification, embroidery, embellishment, excess, overkill, rhetoric
:allears:
And for context, this is the specific Tweet chain. Seeing as you guys love to take things out of context, while twisting it to suit your narrative
https://twitter.com/dsmart/status/649970990705995776
Mostly irrelevant again. Why doesn't concern me. 'Join the fight 2012'. You're a liar. By your own standards.
Oh I see what you did there.
You went from this:
Quote
Did you lie when you added 2012 to your video? Was that a deliberate attempt to make people buy your TAK stuff knowing full well it wasn't ready to release?
Then when proven to be FALSE (the 2012 date in the video had NOTHING to do with sales, as it was over TWO years later before we even started selling anything) you end up with this:
Quote
Mostly irrelevant again. Why doesn't concern me. 'Join the fight 2012'. You're a liar. By your own standards.
The deflection games you guys play is impressive. The fact that you're comparing Roberts LYING (as he does routinely) in Aug 2016 about a patch coming in Dec 2016, and which is now 8 months late, to a release date in a video, just goes to show how desperate you guys are. It's pathetic.
Of course, let's ignore the fact that the comparison would be Roberts claiming a Nov 2014 estimate for Star Citizen, complete with 12, then 18 month leeway in the ToS, and over 3 years later, still no game. Yeah, compare that to LoD which has no release date whatsoever, nor an obligation to give one, since we're not accountable to anyone but our own schedule and funding.
Post by: dsmart on August 01, 2017, 04:07:14 PM
Since no specification has been made about the allocation of the extra money, one could argue that that all is extra money to be spend on other stuff. There is no way to tell how that money is spend, if at all.
Well he has said that all the money goes into developing the game. Since he lies a lot, well, who knows? :shrug:
Post by: Ghostmaker on August 01, 2017, 06:52:53 PM
When I heard CIG was shelling out for mocap and big name actors for VAs, I twitched. A lot.
So, he lost it. He started acting the big man who would show the world he could compete with the big companies. Opening multiple studios, going international, expanding his imperium. Because, I've laid down my vision, how hard can it be? As long as everybody does what I tell them to do, it'll turn out to be a huge success. Maybe a big company will buy RSI and then we'll be on our way to Hollywood.
See, fun fact: actors gotta eat, just like the rest of us. And some are VERY mercenary about things. Gary Oldman, for example, won't even LOOK at a script unless it's accompanied by a slip saying 'We will pay you this much, plus a trailer and steak dinners'. Mark Hamill may be wrapping up his role as Luke Skywalker in the new Star Wars movies, but I'm pretty certain he didn't come cheap for voice acting. I doubt he's hurting for money, either.
Also, Hollywood is a damned incestuous industry. A lot of these people know each other. And it wouldn't surprise me one damn bit if one of them had spoken to Kevin Costner, and made sure to get paid up front BEFORE doing any work.
People wonder why Michael Bay keeps getting work. Here's another fun fact: Bay has a very strong work ethic. So much so that he tends to cattle-prod along actors who think they can slack off (hence why some of them detest him). But his movies get done on time, and on (or under) budget. Accountants love that, and so does Hollywood.
Chris Roberts is no Michael Bay.
Post by: BigM on August 01, 2017, 07:23:54 PM
Also if they really made 155 million plus dollars, there is no way they have anything close to 155 million left. Also, I would think you guys have every right to know how much CR and his friends and family have made from this crowd funding. There is no reason in hell that a backer shouldn't know any of this. You're backing them and deserve all info from the company.
From the outside, anyone with common sense should see they can't have a lot of cash left. Plus if they are running out of cash I wonder if CR and friends and family will end up taking money from their bank accounts to finish the game.
If you believe they will you all are very delusional!
Post by: GaryII on August 02, 2017, 12:42:47 AM
also because CR will repeat the same marketing trick and market v3.1 as next great patch...
2) I never played games developed by Derek, but from yt videos I see that he actually did similar things, that now CR is trying to do..
BIG difference is that Derek compared to CR did that without 155m+ of pre-order money, basically without money if we can even compare...
So he can speak from personal experience and basically was qualified to see FIRST that there is something wrong with SC project...
Post by: Serendipity on August 02, 2017, 12:42:48 AM
The thing with the budget is how you look at it.
Chris said, if you give me 65m, this is what you'll get for that. So people starting to give and after some time 65m was given. So he asked for a budget of 65m to build XYZ in promises. He didn't keep most of those promises, but as long as CIG has not spend over 65m until today, Chris has a budget left. Unfortunately, we don't know how much money CIG has spend until today. However, did Chris deliver as promised? No. Is it likely that they have spend over 65m until today? Yes. Therefore, did Chris deliver as promised within budget? No.
Now, the thing is, even after reaching 65m, money kept coming in. That is extra money to be spend on the game in general. We said we'd do 2 moons, let's make it 4. Stuff like that. The thing is, since there is no specification how those extra millions are to be spend in newly defined targets, they also can be allocated to previous existing targets. If one assumes that the extra money also is allocated for the original goals, then Chris did not deliver for the 65m and everything extra received since.
Since no specification has been made about the allocation of the extra money, one could argue that that all is extra money to be spend on other stuff. There is no way to tell how that money is spend, if at all.
Did Chris go over budget? We don't know since no financial disclosure has been given. Did he deliver as promised? No. Is it likely that the orginal 65m has been spend totally and that for some time now, the additional money has been used to keep up running CIG? Yes. Does that imply that Chris now spend over 65m and has not yet delivered what was agreed upon that he would deliver for 65m? Yes. So, is he over budget then? Yes. Plain and simple. This is Derek's view.
The argument that additional money has been spend to do extra, not-specified things, that as a result hinder the completion of the original promises, does not change the fact that still this project is most likely over original budget and original promises made. Despite his thoughts, backers did not give Chris a carte blache to do whatever he wanted after 65m was reached. He could do that but he had to keep his original promises first. Nobody gave permission to go for changing the orginal promises. If he wanted to change the goalposts for the original targets, he should have asked. Bottomline now is that CIG still hasn't delivered as promised (fact) and can't deliver what was promised. Not at the 65m mark and not with an extra 90m (very good guess).
Is this speculation? Yes, it is. It can only be checked and verified with the actual financial data. That will tell how much money in total was invested and spend. The thing is, we'll only get those details after CIG falls over and simply by falling over, Chris proves he couldn't deliver within specs or budget.
However, since the funding chart is the only way CIG talks about their income stream, let's all pretend that they actually have received 155m so far. Not much to show for if this current 2.6.3 alpha build is all they can deliver right now. Unless they haven't spend that much money in the first place, but that'll be highly unlikely regarding the offices and staffcount.
So the choice as you and Derek see it was to either continue adding stretch goals and adding to feature creep/bloat or pocket the extra themselves? Both options open to valid criticism. What they've done is add staff and studios to help with getting the game done and speed up certain of the stretch goals, like research into PG planets changing to actually doing PG planets, as well as add more vehicles. That seems like the best option to me.
Nobody asked them but they did the honourable thing when the funding didn't stop. Bravo.
Post by: Serendipity on August 02, 2017, 01:54:26 AM
You can't get out of your seat in Elite and you can't compare NMS to either. That's a cartoon. So no, nobody has done what CIG are doing before in a single game and certainly not to the visual beauty.
So uhm, what about Call Of Duty Infinite War and Mass Effect Andromeda?
So this tech innovation in Star Citizen is about explorable planetoids and being about to enter/exit ships in fps mode? :lol: :lol: :lol:
PLEASE list ALL the innovative tech in Star Citizen, which nobody has done before, so we can discuss them fully. It should be very interesting.
Mass effect and call of duty are both very different games. You know this. Again, what CIG is doing doesn't stand up to being new for each element on it's own, it's combining all of the elements together that's new and exciting. 155 million in pre orders exciting.
Post by: N0mad on August 02, 2017, 02:57:30 AM
it's combining all of the elements together that's new and exciting. 155 million in pre orders exciting.
That's the problem. CIG are selling an overhyped dream based on flashy ships and tech demos.
They have no trouble showing off their planetary tech at conferences, together with giant sandworms but seem totally unable to provide players something to test themselves. At some point the alarm bells have to start ringing when a company can't prioritise the essential systems like netcode but can produce endless PR videos, pre-scripted clips, and of course endless ships, fully functional and with huge fidelity and price.
If people had confidence that they could actually make the blockbuster game as promised then all of this wouldn't be a problem. I'm sure even Derek would be happy. But progress on Game seems painfully slow especially when you compare it with the progress they can make producing high fidelity ships to go on sale. They seem to be spending too much time on distractions like box carrying animations, simulated breathing and lots and lots of artwork, instead of making gameplay mechanics and engine optimisations to make it playable.
I genuinely believe they want to make the game, but I'm not sure they can, at least not in a form which would meet people's expectations and fulfil the promises they made.
I also believe that they're misleading people by continuing to make promises which they know must be unrealistic.
Just my opinion though.
Post by: Serendipity on August 02, 2017, 03:15:30 AM
it's combining all of the elements together that's new and exciting. 155 million in pre orders exciting.
That's the problem. CIG are selling an overhyped dream based on flashy ships and tech demos.
They have no trouble showing off their planetary tech at conferences, together with giant sandworms but seem totally unable to provide players something to test themselves. At some point the alarm bells have to start ringing when a company can't prioritise the essential systems like netcode but can produce endless PR videos, pre-scripted clips, and of course endless ships, fully functional and with huge fidelity and price.
If people had confidence that they could actually make the blockbuster game as promised then all of this wouldn't be a problem. I'm sure even Derek would be happy. But progress on Game seems painfully slow especially when you compare it with the progress they can make producing high fidelity ships to go on sale. They seem to be spending too much time on distractions like box carrying animations, simulated breathing and lots and lots of artwork, instead of making gameplay mechanics and engine optimisations to make it playable.
I genuinely believe they want to make the game, but I'm not sure they can, at least not in a form which would meet people's expectations and fulfil the promises they made.
I also believe that they're misleading people by continuing to make promises which they know must be unrealistic.
Just my opinion though.
Over hyped is fair enough but we'll have to wait and see if they can pull enough off of what they've said they can do to satisfy. 4.0 will be the point that I'll assess that and not before. If we have all the professions in and working to the level that the deep dive articles suggest, then it'll be fantastic. That 'if' is a big one I know.
Until then I'm happy to watch and play each build as we get it. 3.0 looks great on paper and AtV. Really looking forward to trying it out and getting my hands on the first real gameplay of the alpha.
Post by: dsmart on August 02, 2017, 04:28:09 AM
You can't get out of your seat in Elite and you can't compare NMS to either. That's a cartoon. So no, nobody has done what CIG are doing before in a single game and certainly not to the visual beauty.
So uhm, what about Call Of Duty Infinite War and Mass Effect Andromeda?
So this tech innovation in Star Citizen is about explorable planetoids and being about to enter/exit ships in fps mode? :lol: :lol: :lol:
Mass effect and call of duty are both very different games. You know this.
I wasn't talking about that. I was talking about specifically the parts you mentioned above. "You can't get out of your seat" and "you can't compare to NMS either"
My point is that you can do those things in both COD:IW and ME:A. Also, "getting out of your seat" isn't innovative in any regard.
Quote
Again, what CIG is doing doesn't stand up to being new for each element on it's own, it's combining all of the elements together that's new and exciting. 155 million in pre orders exciting.
Right. So which elements is it "combining" together that makes it so innovative? You keep ignoring this part. So...
Quote
PLEASE list ALL the innovative tech in Star Citizen, which nobody has done before, so we can discuss them fully. It should be very interesting.
I repeat this for you, in case you somehow missed it; though I don't believe that you did.
Quote
155 million in pre orders exciting.
Said every conman raising money for some reason or another. Or the so many companies that raise money through anti-consumer practices, then never deliver the goods. And yeah, raising money is now far more important than making a game; or they've had focused on making the game and shipped it by now back when it was fully funded at $65M back in Nov 2014.
Post by: Motto on August 02, 2017, 04:51:56 AM
So the choice as you and Derek see it was to either continue adding stretch goals and adding to feature creep/bloat or pocket the extra themselves?
I didn't say that. The thing is, they didn't stop the funding. If they had continued to accept pledges for a basic ship, that's one. But they didn't. Without anything to show for on their original promises, they kept on adding stuff to buy and selling more jpegs and more and more and more. Because they needed the money. Not to make it an even better game, but to keep afloat. Because the idea was to have a game by 2014 and from 2014 on, make money on exploiting the game and expanding the game in bits. But, no game in 2014. Whoops. Now what? We need to finish the game but where's the money to pay for that? What we had is gone now. Well, get extra money. Sell more stuff, sell other stuff. Hell, sell your mother for all I care, but get the money!
The thing is, we don't know how much money CIG has collected over the years. However, it's safe to say that their funding tracker is bogus. And we don't know how much CIG has spend over the years. However, it's safe to say it'll be much.
Is it likely that they have spend most if not all of their money by now and need to turn some drastic tricks to make it any further. Yes, I think that is likely. Highly likely.
Post by: Serendipity on August 02, 2017, 04:59:08 AM
You can't get out of your seat in Elite and you can't compare NMS to either. That's a cartoon. So no, nobody has done what CIG are doing before in a single game and certainly not to the visual beauty.
So uhm, what about Call Of Duty Infinite War and Mass Effect Andromeda?
So this tech innovation in Star Citizen is about explorable planetoids and being about to enter/exit ships in fps mode? :lol: :lol: :lol:
Mass effect and call of duty are both very different games. You know this.
I wasn't talking about that. I was talking about specifically the parts you mentioned above. "You can't get out of your seat" and "you can't compare to NMS either"
My point is that you can do those things in both COD:IW and ME:A. Also, "getting out of your seat" isn't innovative in any regard.QuoteAgain, what CIG is doing doesn't stand up to being new for each element on it's own, it's combining all of the elements together that's new and exciting. 155 million in pre orders exciting.
Right. So which elements is it "combining" together that makes it so innovative? You keep ignoring this part. So...QuotePLEASE list ALL the innovative tech in Star Citizen, which nobody has done before, so we can discuss them fully. It should be very interesting.
I repeat this for you, in case you somehow missed it; though I don't believe that you did.
Ok. I'm not going to talk about technology as I don't know much about that but I can talk about the game and why it's so enticing. What makes it potentially so special. The features planned that, combined, nobody has done before.
Multiplayer, realistic (enough) flight/space simulator mechanics with 6DoF, inertia, momentum etc where you are a pilot in a ship or vehicle able to get out of the seat and engage in FPS play in single, seamless maps, millions of km in size, fully traversable without loading screens of any kind including landing anywhere on PG planetary bodies of near full scale which can be fully explored with hand crafted POIs including both PVE and PVP game elements, deep skill based game mechanics for mining/repair etc which involves more than simply holding down a button, player influenced economy with real-time supply and demand market pressures all in an engine as beautiful as cryengine.
NMS, CoD, Battlecrusier, LoD, Battlescape infinity, Dual Universe, Elite Dangerous, Angels fall first and any other game you can mention simply can't claim all of that. For what it's worth I've played LoD, own Angels fall first and I'm a kickstarter backer for Dual Universe and Battlescape and I'm looking forward to seeing them become cool games in time but they don't have the scope or appeal of SC.
Question back at you. Why do you think the game's fundraising has destroyed all previous records for crowd funding if it isn't the fact it's trying to be something new and special?
Post by: GaryII on August 02, 2017, 04:59:18 AM
Over hyped is fair enough but we'll have to wait and see if they can pull enough off of what they've said they can do to satisfy. 4.0 will be the point that I'll assess that and not before. If we have all the professions in and working to the level that the deep dive articles suggest, then it'll be fantastic. That 'if' is a big one I know.
How long you are ready to wait? 5 years ? 10 years ?!
Game was promised in 2014...
SQ42 is MIA from year 2015..
v3.0 was promised in dec 2016..
Those are NOT usual delays that we see from other "dirty publishers"...
CR is missing deadlines not by weeks or few months but by years !!!
About AtV - sure in their propaganda show game looks 10 out 10
but actual game is maybe 3 out 10 if you look at current 2.6.3...
Post by: Serendipity on August 02, 2017, 05:05:00 AM
Over hyped is fair enough but we'll have to wait and see if they can pull enough off of what they've said they can do to satisfy. 4.0 will be the point that I'll assess that and not before. If we have all the professions in and working to the level that the deep dive articles suggest, then it'll be fantastic. That 'if' is a big one I know.
How long you are ready to wait? 5 years ? 10 years ?!
Game was promised in 2014...
SQ42 is MIA from year 2015..
v3.0 was promised in dec 2016..
Those are NOT usual delays that we see from other "dirty publishers"...
CR is missing deadlines not by weeks or few months but by years !!!
About AtV - sure in their propaganda show game looks 10 out 10
but actual game is maybe 3 out 10 if you look at current 2.6.3...
You haven't seen me call publishers dirty and I've waited patiently for many games down through the years. Delays don't bother me. I have a life and plenty of other games to play. Deadlines must mean something different to you than the rest of the world. When someone says they hope to achieve something by a certain date or they're trying to get something done, it doesn't mean they're promising it or it's a deadline. Hope. Trying to. Feel free to look up the definitions.
The massive funding also allowed more to be done than originally envisaged for the 2014 release, more disengenuous.
I'm willing to wait as long as it takes. I shall never ask for a refund. Looking at a current alpha build, (pre alpha build even) as indicative of the final product is just silly, myopic and disengenuous.
Post by: Serendipity on August 02, 2017, 05:12:13 AM
So the choice as you and Derek see it was to either continue adding stretch goals and adding to feature creep/bloat or pocket the extra themselves?
I didn't say that. The thing is, they didn't stop the funding. If they had continued to accept pledges for a basic ship, that's one. But they didn't. Without anything to show for on their original promises, they kept on adding stuff to buy and selling more jpegs and more and more and more. Because they needed the money. Not to make it an even better game, but to keep afloat. Because the idea was to have a game by 2014 and from 2014 on, make money on exploiting the game and expanding the game in bits. But, no game in 2014. Whoops. Now what? We need to finish the game but where's the money to pay for that? What we had is gone now. Well, get extra money. Sell more stuff, sell other stuff. Hell, sell your mother for all I care, but get the money!
The thing is, we don't know how much money CIG has collected over the years. However, it's safe to say that their funding tracker is bogus. And we don't know how much CIG has spend over the years. However, it's safe to say it'll be much.
Is it likely that they have spend most if not all of their money by now and need to turn some drastic tricks to make it any further. Yes, I think that is likely. Highly likely.
The only argument against this line of reasoning is that they're still in business so the funding tracker must be on the right lines otherwise how could they stay afloat all this time with an ever increasing number of employees?
Fact is, first 2 years overheads were tiny compared to today but funding was almost the same. Well over 50 million in two years, one of which they had less than 20 employees and a single office. They had tonnes of cash in reserve. Tiny Z used to be a hedge fund manager which means, I guess, he knows how to invest large chunks of cash.
Repeatedly saying they're about to run out of cash...for the last 2 years, becomes sillier and sillier as they continue to stay in business for longer and longer. They can have sales. They will deliver more game play. Money keeps coming in.
Don't you believe Derek's sources and the 220+ million in total received? Have they blown through all of that? Seriously?
Edit: From Derek's 'End game' blog from Oct 2015
"THE BEGINNING OF THE END
The four year, $90m+ Star Citizen video game project, is no longer a going concern. The project is FUBAR and there is no going back."
No longer a going concern. He thought they were bankrupt more or less two years ago. Is it time to call BS yet?
Post by: GaryII on August 02, 2017, 05:21:27 AM
Deadlines must mean something different to you than the rest of the world.
Looking at reddit and even CIG forums and also watching some pro-SC streamers I think I am not unique here...
Current v2.6.3 state/mess after 5+ years shows, that they just have no idea/skill/talant how to build promised game...
Post by: Serendipity on August 02, 2017, 05:22:58 AM
Post by: GaryII on August 02, 2017, 05:29:56 AM
2.6 isn't that bad. It's empty and small compared to what's on the way but it works. As a test bed and proof of concept it's fine.
For me its bad, maybe if it was done in 1-2 years as tech demo that it was OK..but 5+ years...no way...
Maybe I have too high standarts, but if dev promises to create game of decade, than I will set expectations very high..
Post by: Serendipity on August 02, 2017, 05:38:04 AM
2.6 isn't that bad. It's empty and small compared to what's on the way but it works. As a test bed and proof of concept it's fine.
For me its bad, maybe if it was done in 1-2 years as tech demo that it was OK..but 5+ years...no way...
Maybe I have too high standarts, but if dev promises to create game of decade, than I will set expectations very high..
They never said that but I agree they've set the bar high with the BDSSE malarkey! Maybe waiting until they get to beta before judging though huh? Judging a pre alpha is silly. Again, they've changed scope and direction a hell of a lot and added some truly impressive features, like PG planets etc, which, for me at least, means an excusable delay.
You want the world right now, which is fine, that's up to you. It's just unrealistic. It was realistic to offer 2014 as an estimate for the much more basic game originally envisioned, (please notice estimate), but I'm chuffed they've taken the stupid amounts of money and are attempting to creat something much, much more. It's great they haven't just pocketed the extra after creating that simple game.
Edit: Also, please remember they built a company from a few individuals to hundreds in the first couple of years too. That doesn't happen overnight and limits what you should expect from the production side of things.
Post by: GaryII on August 02, 2017, 05:49:09 AM
You want the world right now, which is fine, that's up to you. It's just unrealistic.
When "right now" ends?! After 10 years ?!
Current 5 years are quite long time period for "right now" ?!
Its about time to deliver don't you think ?!
I did not asked to deliver the game in 2013 instantly when I backed it...
Post by: StanTheMan on August 02, 2017, 06:04:32 AM
"Evil publishers" release full games in 5 years, SC is only in Pre-alfa state after 5 years...
This is direct result of lack of any planning, feature creep, neverending refactoring and "polishing" (in the end everything is unpolished anyway :P), focusing on jpg sales...
It goes beyond that. Somewhere along the line, Chris had an idea, a vision. He saw a kind of game that would combine several popular game-aspects into one. But he had no money to make it and knew for absolutely sure that no big company would dare to take another chance with him. And then came crowdfunding. Or maybe the vision came after crowdfunding, but who cares. Chris saw a window of opportunity and lauched his Kickstarter campaign. And then noticed he struck gold. His vision apparently appealed to a lot of people. However, Kickstarter has limitations and (legal) rules to abide by. That could hold him back in creating something to go with the vision. So, time to leave Kickstarter behind and start colleting the money directly.
And then it went off the rails. The money kept pooring in. With every wild idea, there it would come again. And again. And then Chris lost it. He probably thought that what he had envisioned would be doable. New modern techniques, clouds are everywhere, big publishers already basically doing it for years. How hard could it be? Money will buy everything, right? And boy, how nice it would be to prove everybody wrong and show them after all those years that he truly is the Master of Games. If they just give him the money and leave him be, he will prove it. Once and for all.
As an added bonus, they gave him so much money, he could add some family members to the payroll, and some old friends and put in some features that could help in another area as well. Let's demonstrate Hollywood I got skills at directing videoclips and have raw pure acting talent available at a snap with my fingertips. And still, every fart was a brilliant sound never heard before. Here's more money, do fart along!
So, he lost it. He started acting the big man who would show the world he could compete with the big companies. Opening multiple studios, going international, expanding his imperium. Because, I've laid down my vision, how hard can it be? As long as everybody does what I tell them to do, it'll turn out to be a huge success. Maybe a big company will buy RSI and then we'll be on our way to Hollywood.
And then it turned out to be really really hard to translate the dream into an actual working product. Having no clue whatsoever about, well, basically everything, it went all bad really quick. The money that should have lasted (them) for years went down the drain. Fast. Whoops. Oh no, Holy Fuck! Quick, let's keep everybody happy by sharing even more of my dreams and by jolly, if they are willing to pay for it, even better. Hell, we need them to because were having expenses we can't pay for long if we don't have a regular steady monthly incomeflow. So, draw pictures! Sell them. Doesn't matter if they can or will be converted to a actual useable item in the game (what game, hahahahaha, omg he's choking on it, somebody bring Chris some water) or just be a nice jpeg forever and ever, as long as it generates money.
Oh, now everything is falling apart. There's no way in hell we can actually build this game. We've been hiding it for years with small little things that need to be polished but the core of the game, we can't do it. We have the seats, the windows, some nice chrome parts and the little cupholder and you actually can buy coffee, but we can't build an engine. We started not with a normal V6 or V8, no we wanted to make a V12 but with Wankel technique. Never been done before. With reason, as it seems. And just to add some difficulty, we switched from gas to diesel, 'cause, you know, reasons, it all went so smoothly and shit and stuff. Now stop asking us when you can actually drive the car. It'll be finished when it's finished. However, those shiny wheelcaps that we draw? Yeah, we're not gonna make them, but we'll redraw them. And then they won't fit the wheels anymore, so we have to redo those too. Oops, now the wheels don't match the wheelcaps anymore. Hmm, let's look at a shop where you can buy hoodornaments first so people can toy with the carbody. A carbody that never will be attached to a working engine so you can actually drive that car around, but who cares.
As long as most of the people don't care if there ever will be a car, just ignore those screaming for a working engine. Fuck 'm. Fuck 'm all. After they give us their money of course. Then fuck 'm over once more. Call me when that isn't working anymore. I'll be on a yacht in Monaco probably, but call me anyway.
Yep.
And then we have the arrogance of thinking his wife Sandi, with sod all marketing experience could market the product.
What Sandi has done is the equivalent of a conman or an inexperienced junior sales person. They dont tell the customer what the product actually does and match its features and benefits to the customers needs, they just lie and lie and lie and smile until someone buys those lies and parts with their cash. Then poof when it comes to delivery they are gone - someone elses problem ! I did my job ! So what if I told them it could do x or y ...
Post by: StanTheMan on August 02, 2017, 06:13:24 AM
2.6 isn't that bad. It's empty and small compared to what's on the way but it works. As a test bed and proof of concept it's fine.
See after all your comment and analysis this is where we get to..
"what's on the way"
You are not CIG, CR or in any way in a position to KNOW what is on the way versus what you have been sold by the people MAKING THE MONEY....yet you are confident enough to claim it is "on the way"
You have a faith based position you have convinced yourself is based on knowledge.
Post by: Motto on August 02, 2017, 06:49:44 AM
The only argument against this line of reasoning is that they're still in business so the funding tracker must be on the right lines otherwise how could they stay afloat all this time with an ever increasing number of employees?
Fact is, first 2 years overheads were tiny compared to today but funding was almost the same. Well over 50 million in two years, one of which they had less than 20 employees and a single office. They had tonnes of cash in reserve. Tiny Z used to be a hedge fund manager which means, I guess, he knows how to invest large chunks of cash.
Repeatedly saying they're about to run out of cash...for the last 2 years, becomes sillier and sillier as they continue to stay in business for longer and longer. They can have sales. They will deliver more game play. Money keeps coming in.
Don't you believe Derek's sources and the 220+ million in total received? Have they blown through all of that? Seriously?
Edit: From Derek's 'End game' blog from Oct 2015
"THE BEGINNING OF THE END
The four year, $90m+ Star Citizen video game project, is no longer a going concern. The project is FUBAR and there is no going back."
No longer a going concern. He thought they were bankrupt more or less two years ago. Is it time to call BS yet?
Chris might have pulled some money elsewhere. Investors, bankloans, who knows? The thing is, if you have enough money, you don't need more, but you'll probably want more. Now, if you have enough money (the 65m for the original promises), why would you keep on asking for more money for a product you can't deliver? That behaviour will only get you more and more upset, angry, complaining customers. I now have 10 angry people because I didn't deliver their car. Let's sell more cars. Yeah, brilliant strategy :doh:
Tiny Z might have been a terrible hedge fund manager. The fact that someone claims to be/has been XYZ, doesn't mean they are/were good at it (Hi Chris, Hi Sandi :wave: )
I don't remember Derek claiming an exact time and date that CIG would collapse. He has been going on about this project being FUBAR for quite some time now, that is true. That doesn't mean he is wrong. With everything I see, I support his views. CIG has lasted longer than he anticipated yes, because they managed to get their hands on more money than expected. But not because they are a top-notch organisation with the best management layer ever and with financial skills that are on par with the best from the best at Wall Street.
But the desparate need for money - that has no bearing whatsoever on the survival of the game (as by own admission from Chris) - is at the least very strange. I see no signs of a healthy company in their current behaviour. I see a company in distress. And with no clear way out, because admitting they have money problems will automatically be the end of them too.
Post by: Serendipity on August 02, 2017, 07:31:25 AM
2.6 isn't that bad. It's empty and small compared to what's on the way but it works. As a test bed and proof of concept it's fine.
See after all your comment and analysis this is where we get to..
"what's on the way"
You are not CIG, CR or in any way in a position to KNOW what is on the way versus what you have been sold by the people MAKING THE MONEY....yet you are confident enough to claim it is "on the way"
You have a faith based position you have convinced yourself is based on knowledge.
I see the progress in AtV every week . It's not faith it exists. It's faith I'll be able to play it at some point. I had faith I'd be able to play AC. I had faith I'd be able to play 2.0. I had faith I'd be able to play Star Marine. I have faith I'll be able to play 3.0.
Are you suggesting we won't get to play a build called 3.0 at some point? I think we will. I think it's damn near certain we will.
Quote
I don't remember Derek claiming a exact time and date that CIG would collapse. He has been going on about this project being FUBAR for quite some time now, that is true. That doesn't mean he is wrong.
Maybe you have a very selective memory or maybe you can't read very well, either way Derek predicted 60 to 90 days, I posted a picture earlier in the thread, and he said they weren't a going concern nearly 2 years ago. That's a date range and him being incredibly wrong.
A company that is no longer a going concern doesn't stay in business for 2 years and counting!
Please at least try to read what I write if you're going to argue with me.
Derek is either making stuff up to hurt a competitor, parroting BS from ill informed sources or making idiotic assumptions based off incorrect analysis or analytics.
I remember when he explained how he got involved and mentioned reading a comm link where they mentioned starting the 64 conversion and that being a red flag that got him digging because it was so much work and they were in year 3 or 4 or whatever and it would take too long to complete, when in fact, the comm link said they'd nearly finished the 64 bit conversion. Willful twisting of facts or reading comprehension failure? I'll leave it up to you to decide for yourself. It's certainly not what he said it was though.
Post by: dsmart on August 02, 2017, 07:47:14 AM
So the choice as you and Derek see it was to either continue adding stretch goals and adding to feature creep/bloat or pocket the extra themselves?
I didn't say that. The thing is, they didn't stop the funding. If they had continued to accept pledges for a basic ship, that's one. But they didn't. Without anything to show for on their original promises, they kept on adding stuff to buy and selling more jpegs and more and more and more. Because they needed the money. Not to make it an even better game, but to keep afloat. Because the idea was to have a game by 2014 and from 2014 on, make money on exploiting the game and expanding the game in bits. But, no game in 2014. Whoops. Now what? We need to finish the game but where's the money to pay for that? What we had is gone now. Well, get extra money. Sell more stuff, sell other stuff. Hell, sell your mother for all I care, but get the money!
The thing is, we don't know how much money CIG has collected over the years. However, it's safe to say that their funding tracker is bogus. And we don't know how much CIG has spend over the years. However, it's safe to say it'll be much.
Is it likely that they have spend most if not all of their money by now and need to turn some drastic tricks to make it any further. Yes, I think that is likely. Highly likely.
Precisely. And this is where part of the "scam" and "Ponzi scheme" analogies come from.
They raised $65M to build a game within a specific time. Then couldn't. So guess what? It took longer, and that means needing more money. How do you raise that? By selling "futures" in the form of game assets which may or may not ever end up in the game. And what happens when people want refunds, and you don't have money to refund them? You use the new money to refund the old.
If the games were already released as final - regardless of how they turned out - and they were still raising money via selling DLC, that's completely different thing entirely. This is the part that most of these defenders don't seem to be able to reconcile in their brains.
Post by: Serendipity on August 02, 2017, 08:14:39 AM
That isn't supposition, heresay, guesswork or made up?
Post by: dsmart on August 02, 2017, 08:17:53 AM
PLEASE list ALL the innovative tech in Star Citizen, which nobody has done before, so we can discuss them fully. It should be very interesting.
Ok. I'm not going to talk about technology as I don't know much about that but I can talk about the game and why it's so enticing. What makes it potentially so special. The features planned that, combined, nobody has done before.
Where is that game, 6 years and $155M later?
Quote
Multiplayer, realistic (enough) flight/space simulator mechanics with 6DoF, inertia, momentum etc where you are a pilot in a ship or vehicle able to get out of the seat and engage in FPS play in single, seamless maps, millions of km in size, fully traversable without loading screens of any kind including landing anywhere on PG planetary bodies of near full scale which can be fully explored with hand crafted POIs including both PVE and PVP game elements, deep skill based game mechanics for mining/repair etc which involves more than simply holding down a button, player influenced economy with real-time supply and demand market pressures all in an engine as beautiful as cryengine.
So what you are saying is that the combination of all the above, is what makes it great and innovative? Are you high? Like right now?
Lets see...
01) Multiplayer
All online games need this.
In SC it's currently rubbish; and everyone knows this
02) realistic (enough) flight/space simulator mechanics with 6DoF, inertia, momentum etc
LOL!! not even close
I should know. I have written several flight dynamics engines (https://www.youtube.com/c/3000ADGAMESCHANNEL) over a 30 year period. Heck, this is one from an engine that was first written back in 1992, and streamlined over the years.
03) where you are a pilot in a ship or vehicle able to get out of the seat and engage in FPS play
That's already in COD:IW, ME:A, Angels Fall First, and several other games. You should go check them out. There's a bunch of them on Steam.
The only "novelty" in SC regarding this, and which has NO gameplay value, is the starting of the game in fps mode and entering a ship in that mode (in the PU only). And since CryEngine is an fps engine first and foremost, this was a no-brainer.
As much as I hate to bring this up, LoD is also takes place purely in fps mode, and does all the same things in certain areas. e.g. in a space station, you are warped to the ship in the external docking bay. On the planet, you walk up to it and enter it - like in all fps games which feature vehicle use. Even passengers can enter the back of shuttles, and remain in fps mode during the entire transit.
04) in single, seamless maps, millions of km in size, fully traversable without loading screens of any kind
Sorry, but that's not how that works. It's not a contiguous or seamless "map" or there won't be enough memory to load it. It's "demand loaded" based on your position in the "map". There are loading screens, but they are transparently handled like they are in many games such as Elite Dangerous, Infinity Battlespace, Dual Universe etc.
My legacy Battlecruiser/Universal Combat games don't have the concept of "maps" or "levels" as it's all data driven. Even so, the entire world is linked via jump anamalies.
05) including landing anywhere on PG planetary bodies of near full scale
NYI. So the veracity of those claims is specious at best.
06) which can be fully explored
NYI. So the veracity of those claims is specious at best.
07) with hand crafted POIs
NYI. So the veracity of those claims is specious at best.
08) including both PVE and PVP game elements
Arena Commander, Star Marine, PU, all have PvP elements
And some of the modules have PvE elements in the form repetitive missions and NPC swarms.
All other promised PvE and PvP elements are NYI
09) deep skill based game mechanics for mining/repair etc which involves more than simply holding down a button
NYI. So the veracity of those claims is specious at best.
10) player influenced economy with real-time supply and demand market pressures
NYI. So the veracity of those claims is specious at best.
11) all in an engine as beautiful as cryengine.
Yes. That's the only plausible check mark thus far
So the conclusion is that, it's all based on promises, and so far, NONE of the key "elements" (aka USP) which you claim make Star Citizen special and innovative, DO NOT EXIST.
Quote
NMS, CoD, Battlecrusier, LoD, Battlescape infinity, Dual Universe, Elite Dangerous, Angels fall first and any other game you can mention simply can't claim all of that.
See above. And those games were never claiming to do anything like Star Citizen is attempting to do. They are all different types of games, with the only common elements being space, and in some of them, the addition of planets.
Quote
For what it's worth I've played LoD, own Angels fall first and I'm a kickstarter backer for Dual Universe and Battlescape and I'm looking forward to seeing them become cool games in time but they don't have the scope or appeal of SC.
That's the problem. You continue to make false equivalent comparisons which have no basis in this discussion. We're discussing Star Citizen and what is PROMISES to be. ALL the games above, by smaller indie teams which didn't have access to $155M, are farther along than Star Citizen, and with FAR LESS resources at their disposal.
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Question back at you. Why do you think the game's fundraising has destroyed all previous records for crowd funding if it isn't the fact it's trying to be something new and special?
It's got NOTHING to do with "trying to be something new and special". That's all in your heads. This is evidenced by the fact that most of the funding comes from the existing install base. If new backers, or even 1% of all the backers were buying everything CIG was selling, they would have raised over a $1B by now. Unlike you guys, there are people who actually keep track of this stuff, and don't just pull numbers out of thin air. In fact, go look at the sales of the Nox and Cyclone for even more recent evidence of this fact.
Also ICO partners who track crowd-funding for games, just released their latest report this past Monday.
Video games declining on Kickstarter - ICO (http://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/2017-08-01-video-games-declining-on-kickstarter-ico)
Post by: Serendipity on August 02, 2017, 08:23:17 AM
I've seen your attempts at physics in flight. LoD is a disgrace in this regard. I'll link a video if you like but I think we both know it's laughable.
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It's not a contiguous or seamless "map" or there won't be enough memory to load it.
Yes it is. How much memory does empty space take up? You really are displaying your ignorance here.
Post by: Motto on August 02, 2017, 08:33:34 AM
Maybe you have a very selective memory or maybe you can't read very well, either way Derek predicted 60 to 90 days, I posted a picture earlier in the thread, and he said they weren't a going concern nearly 2 years ago. That's a date range and him being incredibly wrong.
A company that is no longer a going concern doesn't stay in business for 2 years and counting!
Please at least try to read what I write if you're going to argue with me.
Derek is either making stuff up to hurt a competitor, parroting BS from ill informed sources or making idiotic assumptions based off incorrect analysis or analytics.
I remember when he explained how he got involved and mentioned reading a comm link where they mentioned starting the 64 conversion and that being a red flag that got him digging because it was so much work and they were in year 3 or 4 or whatever and it would take too long to complete, when in fact, the comm link said they'd nearly finished the 64 bit conversion. Willful twisting of facts or reading comprehension failure? I'll leave it up to you to decide for yourself. It's certainly not what he said it was though.
Derek explained that 60 to 90 days was an exaggeration. He showed the whole timeline. But okay, let's take that literally. So, yes he was wrong there. At the moment, CIG is still alive. How they managed to do so, nobody knows. It's not by delivering what they promised, that's for sure.
Now the question is, for how long can they stay alive? I think it won't be for long now. They have lied too long to their backers now. They can't produce a decent game. Alpha 3.0 will be a very disappointing gameplay, if they dare to release it at all.
It is safe to say that Derek has been right though.
- It's now August 2017. The game - as pitched - isn't here. Not even close. So, there's that.
- If the funding chart is correct, CIG has now raised 155m. The game - as pitched - isn't here. Not even close. So, there's that.
Now, will CIG be able to make the game - as pitched - even if they had unlimited funding? No, it's just not doable at the moment. Maybe in 10 or 20 years.
Does CIG have enough funding to continue for at least delivering at the bare minimum, a decent working basic game? No, probably not.
Can CIG keep on generating money to keep afloat in the same way they have done for the last couple of years? No, probably not.
Is Star Citizen as game totally FUBAR? Well, yes. It's a miracle that they lasted until now. They need to pull another couple of miracles now with the 3.0 build, Games Com and Shitizencon. Let's see if they manage that...
Post by: dsmart on August 02, 2017, 08:51:36 AM
Don't you believe Derek's sources and the 220+ million in total received? Have they blown through all of that? Seriously?
First of all, my sources have been right about more things related to this project, than Roberts' has been truthful about it.
Second, if the CIG funding chart, at $155M is to be believed, coupled with what we DON'T know about investor money and loans, why is $285M (the cited number), which is barely $130M higher, so far fetched? Even if it's not as high as $285K, what gives you reason to believe that $155M is accurate, and the only money they have thus far received on the project?
https://twitter.com/dsmart/status/885144183945789442
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Edit: From Derek's 'End game' blog from Oct 2015
"THE BEGINNING OF THE END
The four year, $90m+ Star Citizen video game project, is no longer a going concern. The project is FUBAR and there is no going back."
No longer a going concern. He thought they were bankrupt more or less two years ago. Is it time to call BS yet?
Didn't we go through this already?
And a "going concern (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Going_concern)" has NOTHING to do with going bankrupt. Again, I have to ask you to look up on things and understand them, before you engage in discussions about those things.
Post by: Serendipity on August 02, 2017, 08:52:23 AM
Post by: Serendipity on August 02, 2017, 08:57:17 AM
Don't you believe Derek's sources and the 220+ million in total received? Have they blown through all of that? Seriously?
First of all, my sources have been right about more things related to this project, than Roberts' has been truthful about it.
Second, if the CIG funding chart, at $155M is to be believed, coupled with what we DON'T know about investor money and loans, why is $285M (the cited number), which is barely $130M higher, so far fetched? Even if it's not as high as $285K, what gives you reason to believe that $155M is accurate, and the only money they have thus far received on the project?
https://twitter.com/dsmart/status/885144183945789442QuoteEdit: From Derek's 'End game' blog from Oct 2015
"THE BEGINNING OF THE END
The four year, $90m+ Star Citizen video game project, is no longer a going concern. The project is FUBAR and there is no going back."
No longer a going concern. He thought they were bankrupt more or less two years ago. Is it time to call BS yet?
Didn't we go through this already?
And a "going concern (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Going_concern)" has NOTHING to do with going bankrupt. Again, I have to ask you to look up on things and understand them, before you engage in discussions about those things.
I did and I found this.
What does 'Going Concern' mean
Going concern is an accounting term for a company that has the resources needed to continue to operate indefinitely until a company provides evidence to the contrary, and this term also refers to a company's ability to make enough money to stay afloat or avoid bankruptcy. If a business is not a going concern, it means the company has gone bankrupt and its assets were liquidated. As an example, many dot-coms are no longer going concern companies after the tech bust in the late 1990s.
Read more: Going Concern http://www.investopedia.com/terms/g/goingconcern.asp#ixzz4oc7Twmsl
Follow us: Investopedia on Facebook
In fact I clicked the link you provided in the blog in question, which said the same thing.
Post by: dsmart on August 02, 2017, 09:09:46 AM
Derek is either making stuff up to hurt a competitor, parroting BS from ill informed sources or making idiotic assumptions based off incorrect analysis or analytics.
Yeah because somehow I have so much to gain from a pointless exercise. And it wasn't because CIG started this shit because I wrote a blog, and YOU guys started engaging in targeted harassment, that got us where we are today.
And somehow, to those of you who keep parroting this rubbish about "attacking a competitor", we can't talk about competitors because for some reason, Microsoft and Google, making commercials against Apple, is also totally egregious. That's the thing with you guys, you all live in an alternate reality.
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I remember when he explained how he got involved and mentioned reading a comm link where they mentioned starting the 64 conversion and that being a red flag that got him digging because it was so much work and they were in year 3 or 4 or whatever and it would take too long to complete, when in fact, the comm link said they'd nearly finished the 64 bit conversion. Willful twisting of facts or reading comprehension failure? I'll leave it up to you to decide for yourself. It's certainly not what he said it was though.
Your revisionist history (http://www.dereksmart.org/2015/08/star-citizen-how-i-got-involved) continues to fail.
Interstellar Citizens (http://www.dereksmart.com/2015/07/interstellar-citizens/) (July 9th, 2015)
Frankfurt team’s June 2015 engineering report (https://robertsspaceindustries.com/comm-link/transmission/14814-Monthly-Report). (July 3rd, 2015)
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Engineering
In June, Frankfurt Engineering deployed to the main codebase some major items that were planned for this month. As mentioned in the last monthly report, the Large World (moving the codebase to 64 bit coordinates), Camera Relative (rendering coordinates relative to the camera thus allowing galaxy size rendering without loss of precision), Zone system (the new Star Citizen spatial partitioning scheme, replacing Cryengine Octree) were close to hit the Star Citizen code mainline and have now been deployed, and will find their way into the various Star Citizen game modules soon.
The integration of relevant CryEngine 3.7 SDK parts, combined with our new changes, is being deployed into our codebase as we are writing this.
Frankfurt team’s May 2015 engineering report (https://robertsspaceindustries.com/comm-link/transmission/14758-Monthly-Report). (June 5th, 2015)
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Engineering
For the month of May, Frankfurt Engineering has been busy on multiple fronts. We made a lot of progress on Large World (moving the codebase to 64 bit coordinates, thus allowing galaxy size (literally) levels to be created and explored in Star Citizen) . The main task being worked on Large World this month was making the rendering Camera Relative: in fact the move to 64 bit required all rendering code to be changed to be relative to the camera and not simply in absolute world coordinates any more.
Post by: dsmart on August 02, 2017, 09:29:36 AM
Dude, I said none on their own are special but it's the combination of it all. I said it's their plans for it all and not available right now. Do you even read before replying? No game is doing it all. None of them.
I've seen your attempts at physics in flight. LoD is a disgrace in this regard. I'll link a video if you like but I think we both know it's laughable.
Actually, you haven't. Because there are several videos in the channel I provided which show perfectly fine flight dynamics in games released as far back as 2009.
The LoD video you guys keep citing only goes to show the lengths to which you guys would go to falsehoods to support a narrative. To anyone knowing how to play the game, it would have been painfully obvious that the video shows an EXTERNAL VIEW CAMERA which isn't coupled to the aircraft control systems. And that is precisely why it was later disabled (http://lodgame.com/changelog-archives/) in order to prevent people from attempting to "fly" aircraft using it. We had in there for external view testing to see the world rendering, draw distances etc. Even gameplay videos (http://lodgame.com/mediapage/) going all the way to 2014, which are on the game's page and YT channel, show the aircraft flight dynamics completely differently.
FYI because LoD uses a different engine, is a different kind of game, isn't focused on aerial/space combat, that's why it doesn't use the same flight dynamics engine as previous games. But you won't understand any of that, since you know nothing about tech. You're just parroting rubbish from Reddit.
This is why, when Goons and others find things in Star Citizen to laugh at, you all get mad. But that's precisely what you guys keep doing with LoD, despite the fact that 1) it usually results in you guys self-owning 2) the game is far more technologically advanced, farther along than Star Citizen, and a massive game built by less than a dozen people.
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Yes it is. How much memory does empty space take up? You really are displaying your ignorance here.
I am not going to grace that with a response because it's clearly above your knowledge (you have already claimed to not know anything about technology), but if you continue to engage in personal attacks, you will be banned. I know it's probably annoying that your narrative has NO traction here, so maybe you should consider staying on Reddit because we don't tolerate that here.
ps: Did you notice the "galaxy sized levels" comment in the May 2015 engineering report from CIG? Sure you did.
Post by: dsmart on August 02, 2017, 09:35:11 AM
Maybe you have a very selective memory or maybe you can't read very well, either way Derek predicted 60 to 90 days, I posted a picture earlier in the thread, and he said they weren't a going concern nearly 2 years ago. That's a date range and him being incredibly wrong.
A company that is no longer a going concern doesn't stay in business for 2 years and counting!
Please at least try to read what I write if you're going to argue with me.
Derek is either making stuff up to hurt a competitor, parroting BS from ill informed sources or making idiotic assumptions based off incorrect analysis or analytics.
I remember when he explained how he got involved and mentioned reading a comm link where they mentioned starting the 64 conversion and that being a red flag that got him digging because it was so much work and they were in year 3 or 4 or whatever and it would take too long to complete, when in fact, the comm link said they'd nearly finished the 64 bit conversion. Willful twisting of facts or reading comprehension failure? I'll leave it up to you to decide for yourself. It's certainly not what he said it was though.
Derek explained that 60 to 90 days was an exaggeration. He showed the whole timeline. But okay, let's take that litterally. So, yes he was wrong there. At the moment, CIG is still alive. How they managed to do so, nobody knows. It's not by delivering what they promised, that's for sure.
Now the question is, for how long can they stay alive? I think it won't be for long now. They have lied too long to their backers now. They can't produce a decent game. Alpha 3.0 will be a very disappointing gameplay, if they dare to release it at all.
It is safe to say that Derek has been right though.
- It's now August 2017. The game - as pitched - isn't here. Not even close. So, there's that.
- If the funding chart is correct, CIG has now raised 155m. The game - as pitched - isn't here. Not even close. So, there's that.
Now, will CIG be able to make the game - as pitched - even if they had unlimited funding? No, it's just not doable at the moment. Maybe in 10 or 20 years.
Does CIG have enough funding to continue for at least delivering at the bare minimum, a decent working basic game? No, probably not.
Can CIG keep on generating money to keep afloat in the same way they have done for the last couple of years? No, probably not.
Is Star Citizen as game totally FUBAR? Well, yes. It's a miracle that they lasted until now. They need to pull another couple of miracles now with the 3.0 build, Games Com and Shitizencon. Let's see if they manage that...
:five: :five: :five:
Post by: dsmart on August 02, 2017, 09:37:16 AM
Read more: Going Concern http://www.investopedia.com/terms/g/goingconcern.asp#ixzz4oc7Twmsl
Follow us: Investopedia on Facebook
In fact I clicked the link you provided in the blog in question, which said the same thing.
So you dug up a link, read it, but still chose to distort the meaning?
Quote
What does 'Going Concern' mean
Going concern is an accounting term for a company that has the resources needed to continue to operate indefinitely until a company provides evidence to the contrary, and this term also refers to a company's ability to make enough money to stay afloat or avoid bankruptcy. If a business is not a going concern, it means the company has gone bankrupt and its assets were liquidated. As an example, many dot-coms are no longer going concern companies after the tech bust in the late 1990s.
Now compare the above to my statement about CIG, and explain to me WHERE it implied that they were bankrupt (which would be a public filing)
"The four year, $90m+ Star Citizen video game project, is no longer a going concern. The project is FUBAR and there is no going back.""
Post by: BigM on August 02, 2017, 11:52:34 AM
The only argument against this line of reasoning is that they're still in business so the funding tracker must be on the right lines otherwise how could they stay afloat all this time with an ever increasing number of employees?
Fact is, first 2 years overheads were tiny compared to today but funding was almost the same. Well over 50 million in two years, one of which they had less than 20 employees and a single office. They had tonnes of cash in reserve. Tiny Z used to be a hedge fund manager which means, I guess, he knows how to invest large chunks of cash.
Repeatedly saying they're about to run out of cash...for the last 2 years, becomes sillier and sillier as they continue to stay in business for longer and longer. They can have sales. They will deliver more game play. Money keeps coming in.
Don't you believe Derek's sources and the 220+ million in total received? Have they blown through all of that? Seriously?
Edit: From Derek's 'End game' blog from Oct 2015
"THE BEGINNING OF THE END
The four year, $90m+ Star Citizen video game project, is no longer a going concern. The project is FUBAR and there is no going back."
No longer a going concern. He thought they were bankrupt more or less two years ago. Is it time to call BS yet?
Chris might have pulled some money elsewhere. Investors, bankloans, who knows? The thing is, if you have enough money, you don't need more, but you'll probably want more. Now, if you have enough money (the 65m for the original promises), why would you keep on asking for more money for a product you can't deliver? That behaviour will only get you more and more upset, angry, complaning customers. I now have 10 angry people because I didn't deliver their car. Let's sell more cars. Yeah, brilliant strategy :doh:
Tiny Z might have been a terrible hedge fund manager. The fact that someone claims to be/has been XYZ, doesn't mean they are/were good at it (Hi Chris, Hi Sandi :wave: )
I don't remember Derek claiming a exact time and date that CIG would collapse. He has been going on about this project being FUBAR for quite some time now, that is true. That doesn't mean he is wrong. With everything I see, I support his views. CIG has lasted longer than he anticipated yes, because they managed to get their hands on more money than expected. But not because they are a top-notch organisation with the best management layer ever and with financial skills that are on par with the best from the best at Wall Street.
But the desparate need for money - that has no bearing whatsoever on the survival of the game (as by own admission from Chris) - is at the least very strange. I see no signs of a healthy company in their current behaviour. I see a company in distress. And with no clear way out, because admitting they have money problems will automatically be the end of them too.
If we had a way to upvote you I would. You said it better than I could ever say it. Great post!
Post by: Motto on August 02, 2017, 12:08:46 PM
As Chris, I aim for the stars but always seem to end up in empty space. Probably because I'm not native in English. It's the little things in spelling and grammar that give me away. I don't understand why some think I'm Derek. He's so more eloquent :allears: (and he probably doesn't need as much editing to get all his annoying typo's and errors out of the way; I keep on finding them :saddowns: )
Post by: Serendipity on August 02, 2017, 03:35:22 PM
Read more: Going Concern http://www.investopedia.com/terms/g/goingconcern.asp#ixzz4oc7Twmsl
Follow us: Investopedia on Facebook
In fact I clicked the link you provided in the blog in question, which said the same thing.
So you dug up a link, read it, but still chose to distort the meaning?QuoteWhat does 'Going Concern' mean
Going concern is an accounting term for a company that has the resources needed to continue to operate indefinitely until a company provides evidence to the contrary, and this term also refers to a company's ability to make enough money to stay afloat or avoid bankruptcy. If a business is not a going concern, it means the company has gone bankrupt and its assets were liquidated. As an example, many dot-coms are no longer going concern companies after the tech bust in the late 1990s.
Now compare the above to my statement about CIG, and explain to me WHERE it implied that they were bankrupt (which would be a public filing)
"The four year, $90m+ Star Citizen video game project, is no longer a going concern. The project is FUBAR and there is no going back.
I'm not sure I've distorted anything. Let's do some analysis shall we.
You said: "The four year, $90m+ Star Citizen video game project, is no longer a going concern.
The link says: "If a business is not a going concern, it means the company has gone bankrupt"
Can you explain to me which part I distorted, because it looks like it's exactly the same to me. Probably because it is exactly the same.
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In June, Frankfurt Engineering deployed to the main codebase some major items that were planned for this month. As mentioned in the last monthly report, the Large World (moving the codebase to 64 bit coordinates)
So if something, (64 bit coordinates), has been 'deployed to the main codebase', I'm taking that to mean it's basically completed. They'd been working on it for years. I'm referring to an interview where I heard you saying they'd just started on the conversion. I don't have a link. Perhaps it was the open house or somewhere else. I have a good memory and I know you said it somewhere. I remember listening to you, going to check the comm link and laughing at your, (deliberate?), misunderstanding.
Either way it's still a fact they have 64 bit positioning and maps millions of km in width that can be traversed without breaks or loading screen, evidenced by the plentiful videos or just playing the game. It matters not if it's 'smoke and mirrors', (whatever that means in game dev terms, I mean, it's all illusion right?), the effect is seamlessly travelling from thousands of km away from a moon with it appearing as a couple of pixels, all the way to full blown asset and soon, to landing and exploring with no breaks, screens, menus...nothing.
They've done what the blog you linked talks about you could never do. That must hurt. I'm sorry that someone else is managing to accomplish your dream but there you go. There it is and there we are. Of course, we need 3.0 in our hands to confirm but the PC gamer journalist you questioned on twitter confirmed it, that's good enough for me.
I haven't attacked anyone, personally or otherwise, just offered opinion and analysis. Nothing personal at all.
Post by: Motto on August 02, 2017, 03:50:09 PM
A going concern is a business that functions without the threat of liquidation for the foreseeable future, usually regarded as at least within 12 months. It implies for the business the basic declaration of intention to keep running its activities at least for the next year, which is a basic assumption to prepare financial statements considering the conceptual framework of the IFRS. Hence, the declaration of going concern means that the entity has neither the intention nor the need to liquidate or curtail materially the scale of its operations.
So, to say a company is no longer a going concern, doesn't mean it's bankrupt, but it generally means it won't last more than the upcoming 12 months. So, if Derek said this 2 years ago, he was wrong, since CIG is still here. If, and only if, you take the statement literally. However, if you look at the statement in a somewhat broader view, you'll see the meaning as intended by Derek. As in, CIG will not be able to live up to what they pre-sold. They can't cut it and they won't make it. That narrative is quite in line with his other statements about CIG and SC. Now, I'll give you that it has taken longer than expected. However, I hereby will say that in my humble opinion, CIG no longer is a going concern. They won't last another 12 months. I don't foresee a future for CIG as a running company. Only running from the law.
Post by: dsmart on August 02, 2017, 03:56:54 PM
The defination for going concern from Wikipedia is:
A going concern is a business that functions without the threat of liquidation for the foreseeable future, usually regarded as at least within 12 months. It implies for the business the basic declaration of intention to keep running its activities at least for the next year, which is a basic assumption to prepare financial statements considering the conceptual framework of the IFRS. Hence, the declaration of going concern means that the entity has neither the intention nor the need to liquidate or curtail materially the scale of its operations.
So, to say a company is no longer an going concern, doesn't mean it's bankrupt, but it generally means it won't last more than the upcoming 12 months. So, if Derek said this 2 years ago, he was wrong, since CIG is still here. If, and only if, you take the statement literally. However, if you look at the statement in a somewhat broader view, you'll see the meaning as intended by Derek. As in, CIG will not be able to live up to what they pre-sold. They can't cut it and they won't make it. That narrative is quite in line with his other statements about CIG and SC. Now, I'll give you that it has taking longer than expected. However, I hereby will say that in my humble opinion, CIG no longer is a going concern. They won't last another 12 months. I don't foresee a future for CIG as a running company. Only running from the law.
Exactly. In fact, each time I have used the "going concern" term, it has been consistent with the notion and context that "they won't make it" and NOT that "they are bankrupt". You can go to www.dereksmart.com right now and do a search for "concern" and find that my usage very consistent.
Post by: Serendipity on August 02, 2017, 04:05:18 PM
But fair enough. You meant they won't complete the project. You stated it quite confidently when you didn't know if they can or not. You thought they couldn't. That's different. There's no way you know the future and 3.0, as confirmed by a PC gamer journalist, seems to be about to prove you wrong.
Theres no evidence of financial trouble despite your attempts at claiming so. Hiring staff. Paying wages. Having sales that make millions in a week. It's all supposition and guesswork, no doubt from your analysis that we've already discussed is horribly flawed.
No imminent collapse. Obvious and tangible progress with a reliable source reporting the truth. All we can do is wait and see. I'm looking forward to it.
Post by: Motto on August 02, 2017, 04:07:40 PM
Post by: dsmart on August 02, 2017, 04:32:37 PM
Can you explain to me which part I distorted, because it looks like it's exactly the same to me. Probably because it is exactly the same.
I'm not playing your stupid game. I HIGHLIGHTED the specific section. But go ahead and ignore it you want.
Quote
So if something, (64 bit coordinates), has been 'deployed to the main codebase', I'm taking that to mean it's basically completed. They'd been working on it for years.
No, that's not what that means.
Quote
I'm referring to an interview where I heard you saying they'd just started on the conversion. I don't have a link. Perhaps it was the open house or somewhere else. I have a good memory and I know you said it somewhere. I remember listening to you, going to check the comm link and laughing at your, (deliberate?), misunderstanding.
I have always been consistent in my alarm that they started doing that at all; and that FOUR years later, in Summer 2015, barely had it implemented. As I stated in my first blog, that was the impetus for the blog and which led to my assessment that the project was FUBAR. Had they NOT increased the game's scope, and made all these promises, THAT complex and time consuming amount of work would NOT have been necessary because the level extents supported by CryEngine, would have built the original game just fine. They could have created the entire world by connecting together all the smaller max size levels allowed by CryEngine, using the same very jump points they currently have in the Star Map. And it could still have appeared as one contiguous world, without any loading screens. Which is what most games, include Elite Dangerous, do.
Of course I was right because the PU didn't release until Dec 2015 (https://robertsspaceindustries.com/comm-link/transmission/15106-Star-Citizen-Alpha-20-Available), and it was a horribly, broken, mess. Even for a pre-Alpha. And it still is, almost two years later in 2.6.3 (last patch was in April btw).
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They've done what the blog you linked talks about you could never do. That must hurt. I'm sorry that someone else is managing to accomplish your dream but there you go. There it is and there we are. Of course, we need 3.0 in our hands to confirm but the PC gamer journalist you questioned on twitter confirmed it, that's good enough for me.
What in the hell are you talking about? My Interstellar Citizens (http://www.dereksmart.com/2015/07/interstellar-citizens/) blog had NOTHING to do with anything other than having a seamless experience whereby a player exists in the ENTIRE game in first person. None of the BC/UC games have FPS inside capital ships or stations. And LoD has some (FPS inside stations and a carrier) that, but as a "Combined Arms" game, not a dedicated "Space/Planetary Combat Game/Sim" like BC/UC games, it doesn't count.
And it's right there in the HOLY GRAIL section of the blog.
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THE HOLY GRAIL
As I’ve said in many interviews, articles and so on, when I first set out to make these games, I had an all-encompassing vision. Being a sci-fi buff, I wanted a game in which one could travel through the stars, meet strange new people, explore, trade, fight, command your crew, and all that. All in space, and on planets, in first person infantry mode, with air, space, and vehicular combat thrown into the mix. I envisioned a mix of Elite with Star Flight, a dash of Sentinel Worlds and Hard Nova, and all the ludicrously complex machinations of the Star Fleet series.
The fact that I actually pulled off the first iteration in 1996, while most were either laughing at me, or saying how it couldn’t be done, is something that has been lost in time.
Through it all, my vision was still not complete because, even though GPU and CPU technologies were progressing at a fast pace, the game engine technologies still weren’t there. As a result, I continued to make sacrifices in order to keep moving things forward. For example, you can’t have high visual fidelity when you’re trying to build a massive game world. So I tended to sacrifice visuals for gameplay, something that was seemingly unheard of back in the day because you just get laughed at. Which is hilarious now that I think about it, when there are so many best-selling but shallow games with sub-par graphics.
The Holy Grail of immersion for me has always been for the player to be able to exist in first person (aka infantry) mode throughout the entire game world. You’d be able to walk around inside your ship. You’d be able to dock that ship with a station, exit, walk around inside that station. You’d be able to fly your ship directly into a planet, land, exit that ship, enter a building, do stuff etc.
Much like back in 1996 whereby nobody had even come close to my vision, as of this writing, nobody has come close to making that game, let alone a capital ship combat game that gives you so much control and freedom.
Except me.
And it still continues to be a technical challenge of seemingly insurmountable proportions, over twenty-five years later since I first had an idea for the game that was to become Battlecruiser 3000AD.
And the only way that anyone is ever going to be able to make that game is if they built technologies specifically designed for it, and they have the deep financial pockets to do it with. And after that, it has to be compelling enough for gamers to want to upgrade their rig in order to play it. Unless you’re releasing the next Elder Scrolls, Call Of Duty, Battlefield, GTA or similar, good luck with getting modern-day gamers to bother upgrading to play your game without sufficient evidence of what makes your game so special.
Fact is, these all-encompassing games are exceptionally difficult to make. You can safely take that from someone who has spent over two decades making them. And even if you do manage to get the money to do it, and even manage to pull it off, the genre itself pretty much guarantees that the race to profit is fraught with agony, strife, frustration, and pain.
And so far Star Citizen hasn't even done it because, unlike LoD, they're still struggling to get a moon or planetoid working, let alone the massive scale planets and moons in BC/UC, or the detailed planetary bases (http://lodgame.com/mediapage/) in LoD.
Are you aware that the ENTIRE Star Citizen "world" is but a postage stamp, compared to the contiguous world (http://www.lodgame.com/media/lore/galaxy_map.jpg) featured in Battlecruiser/Universal Combat games? Yes, yes, of course you are, but go ahead and ignore it if you want.
Post by: ecg on August 02, 2017, 06:26:58 PM
I am an old time gamer (54) so I have played quite a few games over the years. Wing Commander, Freelancer even BattleCruiser 3000. I am a systems admin with a little dev (just enough to get into trouble). I joined the SC KS in Oct 2012. Was in for about 230$. The biggest red flag for myself was when they announced they were using CRYengine.
Why? Its been pretty obvious since, that was their first mistake. Trying to re-code this engine to fit CR's dream has obviously been problematic and seems to be the cause of many of the delays. There have been many other red flags but you guys have covered them pretty well. The games has also changed too much for my tastes - I am a sim guy and pretty much hate FPS/PVP. That's why earlier this year I got out. RSI refunded my full amount without hassle and even left my account intact. If a game is ever delivered I will revisit.
My gut feeling and that all it is, is they are in trouble due to CRYengine. It is just requiring too much time and effort to modify it to fit the demands. They would have been better off scrapping it and developing an in house engine.
But it is too late for that.
Thanks for listening. Carry on.
Post by: dsmart on August 02, 2017, 07:00:00 PM
Been lurking here for a while, but finally had to register just to let both DS and Serendipity how extremely entertaining this joust has been. It's pretty clear neither side is ever going to convince the other.
I am an old time gamer (54) so I have played quite a few games over the years. Wing Commander, Freelancer even BattleCruiser 3000. I am a systems admin with a little dev (just enough to get into trouble). I joined the SC KS in Oct 2012. Was in for about 230$. The biggest red flag for myself was when they announced they were using CRYengine.
Why? Its been pretty obvious since, that was their first mistake. Trying to re-code this engine to fit CR's dream has obviously been problematic and seems to be the cause of many of the delays. There have been many other red flags but you guys have covered them pretty well. The games has also changed too much for my tastes - I am a sim guy and pretty much hate FPS/PVP. That's why earlier this year I got out. RSI refunded my full amount without hassle and even left my account intact. If a game is ever delivered I will revisit.
My gut feeling and that all it is, is they are in trouble due to CRYengine. It is just requiring too much time and effort to modify it to fit the demands. They would have been better off scrapping it and developing an in house engine.
But it is too late for that.
Thanks for listening. Carry on.
Welcome. You're not alone in your thoughts.
The thing that most backers fail to realize is that they are never - ever - going to be able to build the game Chris envisioned and promised, with that engine. And unfortunately, back when they should have switched to a custom engine built from scratch, or even switched to UE4 which would give them the same or better visuals, and none of the aggro of CryEngine, they were busy making bullshot videos and images. In all that time, and even at $50M raised, they could have made the switch. But no, that was too easy - and sensible. So, a little over FIVE years + $125M later, they switched to a different branch (LumberYard) or the same restrictive engine they keep cobbling together.
The worst of it is that when this whole thing collapses, the game will be useless since it has no offline mode or peer-to-peer connectivity mode.
Post by: Motto on August 02, 2017, 07:10:35 PM
Post by: Serendipity on August 02, 2017, 11:08:03 PM
Through it all, my vision was still not complete because, even though GPU and CPU technologies were progressing at a fast pace, the game engine technologies still weren’t there. As a result, I continued to make sacrifices in order to keep moving things forward. For example, you can’t have high visual fidelity when you’re trying to build a massive game world. So I tended to sacrifice visuals for gameplay, something that was seemingly unheard of back in the day because you just get laughed at. Which is hilarious now that I think about it, when there are so many best-selling but shallow games with sub-par graphics.
Should 3.0 deliver what they say it will, and the PC gamer journalist you spoke to on twitter says they have, then it seems to me CIG have achieved exactly what you suggest can't be done, your 'holy grail', what you have not managed to do. A seamless, huge world with incredible visuals.
Post by: GaryII on August 03, 2017, 04:28:00 AM
Should 3.0 deliver what they say it will, and the PC gamer journalist you spoke to on twitter says they have, then it seems to me CIG have achieved exactly what you suggest can't be done, your 'holy grail', what you have not managed to do. A seamless, huge world with incredible visuals.
Unfortunately in year 2017 you can not believe game journalists almost all of them are sellouts :(
What he played probably was very controlled experience, if I understand correctly fps was no more then 30...I believe one of SC youtube Yes-man reported that...
v3.0 is still not out and probably delayed till September...so we can not see how huge is their "huge world" in v3.0...and what is "seamless" by SC definition...
Do not believe everything that they say in ATVs, I am listening that crap from year 2013 - too much marketing (lies, dreamcrafing) there..
If you are new to SC, then I can understand your enthusiasm about game, but old backers are not that excited anymore...too many broken promises...
Post by: dsmart on August 03, 2017, 04:47:59 AM
What the hell am I talking about? This:
Through it all, my vision was still not complete because, even though GPU and CPU technologies were progressing at a fast pace, the game engine technologies still weren’t there. As a result, I continued to make sacrifices in order to keep moving things forward. For example, you can’t have high visual fidelity when you’re trying to build a massive game world. So I tended to sacrifice visuals for gameplay, something that was seemingly unheard of back in the day because you just get laughed at. Which is hilarious now that I think about it, when there are so many best-selling but shallow games with sub-par graphics.
Should 3.0 deliver what they say it will, and the PC gamer journalist you spoke to on twitter says they have, then it seems to me CIG have achieved exactly what you suggest can't be done, your 'holy grail', what you have not managed to do. A seamless, huge world with incredible visuals.
I see you've pretty much given up all semblance of reason now and just walked off a cliff. You conveniently highlighted and carved out the visuals aspect of the comment, while leaving the qualifying parts which collectively form the context.
Here, to save you going back to the previous page (http://www.dereksmart.com/forum/index.php?topic=29.msg2347#msg2347), I will repost it for you:
Quote
They've done what the blog you linked talks about you could never do. That must hurt. I'm sorry that someone else is managing to accomplish your dream but there you go. There it is and there we are. Of course, we need 3.0 in our hands to confirm but the PC gamer journalist you questioned on twitter confirmed it, that's good enough for me.What in the hell are you talking about? My Interstellar Citizens (http://www.dereksmart.com/2015/07/interstellar-citizens/) blog had NOTHING to do with anything other than having a seamless experience whereby a player exists in the ENTIRE game in first person. None of the BC/UC games have FPS inside capital ships or stations. And LoD has some (FPS inside stations and a carrier) that, but as a "Combined Arms" game, not a dedicated "Space/Planetary Combat Game/Sim" like BC/UC games, it doesn't count.
And so far Star Citizen hasn't even done it because, unlike LoD, they're still struggling to get a moon or planetoid working, let alone the massive scale planets and moons in BC/UC, or the detailed planetary bases in LoD.
Are you aware that the ENTIRE Star Citizen "world" is but a postage stamp, compared to the contiguous world featured in Battlecruiser/Universal Combat games? Yes, yes, of course you are, but go ahead and ignore it if you want.
THE HOLY GRAIL
As I’ve said in many interviews, articles and so on, when I first set out to make these games, I had an all-encompassing vision. Being a sci-fi buff, I wanted a game in which one could travel through the stars, meet strange new people, explore, trade, fight, command your crew, and all that. All in space, and on planets, in first person infantry mode, with air, space, and vehicular combat thrown into the mix. I envisioned a mix of Elite with Star Flight, a dash of Sentinel Worlds and Hard Nova, and all the ludicrously complex machinations of the Star Fleet series.
The fact that I actually pulled off the first iteration in 1996, while most were either laughing at me, or saying how it couldn’t be done, is something that has been lost in time.
Through it all, my vision was still not complete because, even though GPU and CPU technologies were progressing at a fast pace, the game engine technologies still weren’t there. As a result, I continued to make sacrifices in order to keep moving things forward. For example, you can’t have high visual fidelity when you’re trying to build a massive game world. So I tended to sacrifice visuals for gameplay, something that was seemingly unheard of back in the day because you just get laughed at. Which is hilarious now that I think about it, when there are so many best-selling but shallow games with sub-par graphics.
The Holy Grail of immersion for me has always been for the player to be able to exist in first person (aka infantry) mode throughout the entire game world. You’d be able to walk around inside your ship. You’d be able to dock that ship with a station, exit, walk around inside that station. You’d be able to fly your ship directly into a planet, land, exit that ship, enter a building, do stuff etc.
Much like back in 1996 whereby nobody had even come close to my vision, as of this writing, nobody has come close to making that game, let alone a capital ship combat game that gives you so much control and freedom.
Except me.
And it still continues to be a technical challenge of seemingly insurmountable proportions, over twenty-five years later since I first had an idea for the game that was to become Battlecruiser 3000AD.
And the only way that anyone is ever going to be able to make that game is if they built technologies specifically designed for it, and they have the deep financial pockets to do it with. And after that, it has to be compelling enough for gamers to want to upgrade their rig in order to play it. Unless you’re releasing the next Elder Scrolls, Call Of Duty, Battlefield, GTA or similar, good luck with getting modern-day gamers to bother upgrading to play your game without sufficient evidence of what makes your game so special.
Fact is, these all-encompassing games are exceptionally difficult to make. You can safely take that from someone who has spent over two decades making them. And even if you do manage to get the money to do it, and even manage to pull it off, the genre itself pretty much guarantees that the race to profit is fraught with agony, strife, frustration, and pain.
If your opinion is that with the high visual fidelity + large game world means Star Citizen has succeeded, despite my writing an entire paragraph detailing what my "Holy Grail" opinion is, and which you yourself claimed Star Citizen had achieved, then they should just mark it as released right now, and call it a day. Game complete.
Star Citizen hasn't delivered ANY of what I stated above and which you highlighted. And it won't. As in never. And whatever PC Gamer and GameStar "played" doesn't even amount to ANY of the above, other than visuals. How does having a world that's not even 1% built, amount to it succeeding is completely baffling to me. Enjoy your 2 toy moons and 1 planetoid in 3.0. :laugh:
I like how everything is "should" and "will" though. Gotta keep the faith.
Post by: dsmart on August 03, 2017, 04:52:43 AM
If you are new to SC, then I can understand your enthusiasm about game, but old backers are not that excited anymore...too many broken promises...
He's not new. He's one of these guys over on /r/ds engaged in auto-fellatio, while cowardly posting here under an alt, thinking he's winding us up with circular and strawman arguments.
Post by: Serendipity on August 03, 2017, 05:44:53 AM
What the hell am I talking about? This:
Through it all, my vision was still not complete because, even though GPU and CPU technologies were progressing at a fast pace, the game engine technologies still weren’t there. As a result, I continued to make sacrifices in order to keep moving things forward. For example, you can’t have high visual fidelity when you’re trying to build a massive game world. So I tended to sacrifice visuals for gameplay, something that was seemingly unheard of back in the day because you just get laughed at. Which is hilarious now that I think about it, when there are so many best-selling but shallow games with sub-par graphics.
Should 3.0 deliver what they say it will, and the PC gamer journalist you spoke to on twitter says they have, then it seems to me CIG have achieved exactly what you suggest can't be done, your 'holy grail', what you have not managed to do. A seamless, huge world with incredible visuals.
I see you've pretty much given up all semblance of reason now and just walked off a cliff. You conveniently highlighted and carved out the visuals aspect of the comment, while leaving the qualifying parts which collectively form the context.
Here, to save you going back to the previous page (http://www.dereksmart.com/forum/index.php?topic=29.msg2347#msg2347), I will repost it for you:QuoteThey've done what the blog you linked talks about you could never do. That must hurt. I'm sorry that someone else is managing to accomplish your dream but there you go. There it is and there we are. Of course, we need 3.0 in our hands to confirm but the PC gamer journalist you questioned on twitter confirmed it, that's good enough for me.What in the hell are you talking about? My Interstellar Citizens (http://www.dereksmart.com/2015/07/interstellar-citizens/) blog had NOTHING to do with anything other than having a seamless experience whereby a player exists in the ENTIRE game in first person. None of the BC/UC games have FPS inside capital ships or stations. And LoD has some (FPS inside stations and a carrier) that, but as a "Combined Arms" game, not a dedicated "Space/Planetary Combat Game/Sim" like BC/UC games, it doesn't count.
And so far Star Citizen hasn't even done it because, unlike LoD, they're still struggling to get a moon or planetoid working, let alone the massive scale planets and moons in BC/UC, or the detailed planetary bases in LoD.
Are you aware that the ENTIRE Star Citizen "world" is but a postage stamp, compared to the contiguous world featured in Battlecruiser/Universal Combat games? Yes, yes, of course you are, but go ahead and ignore it if you want.
THE HOLY GRAIL
As I’ve said in many interviews, articles and so on, when I first set out to make these games, I had an all-encompassing vision. Being a sci-fi buff, I wanted a game in which one could travel through the stars, meet strange new people, explore, trade, fight, command your crew, and all that. All in space, and on planets, in first person infantry mode, with air, space, and vehicular combat thrown into the mix. I envisioned a mix of Elite with Star Flight, a dash of Sentinel Worlds and Hard Nova, and all the ludicrously complex machinations of the Star Fleet series.
The fact that I actually pulled off the first iteration in 1996, while most were either laughing at me, or saying how it couldn’t be done, is something that has been lost in time.
Through it all, my vision was still not complete because, even though GPU and CPU technologies were progressing at a fast pace, the game engine technologies still weren’t there. As a result, I continued to make sacrifices in order to keep moving things forward. For example, you can’t have high visual fidelity when you’re trying to build a massive game world. So I tended to sacrifice visuals for gameplay, something that was seemingly unheard of back in the day because you just get laughed at. Which is hilarious now that I think about it, when there are so many best-selling but shallow games with sub-par graphics.
The Holy Grail of immersion for me has always been for the player to be able to exist in first person (aka infantry) mode throughout the entire game world. You’d be able to walk around inside your ship. You’d be able to dock that ship with a station, exit, walk around inside that station. You’d be able to fly your ship directly into a planet, land, exit that ship, enter a building, do stuff etc.
Much like back in 1996 whereby nobody had even come close to my vision, as of this writing, nobody has come close to making that game, let alone a capital ship combat game that gives you so much control and freedom.
Except me.
And it still continues to be a technical challenge of seemingly insurmountable proportions, over twenty-five years later since I first had an idea for the game that was to become Battlecruiser 3000AD.
And the only way that anyone is ever going to be able to make that game is if they built technologies specifically designed for it, and they have the deep financial pockets to do it with. And after that, it has to be compelling enough for gamers to want to upgrade their rig in order to play it. Unless you’re releasing the next Elder Scrolls, Call Of Duty, Battlefield, GTA or similar, good luck with getting modern-day gamers to bother upgrading to play your game without sufficient evidence of what makes your game so special.
Fact is, these all-encompassing games are exceptionally difficult to make. You can safely take that from someone who has spent over two decades making them. And even if you do manage to get the money to do it, and even manage to pull it off, the genre itself pretty much guarantees that the race to profit is fraught with agony, strife, frustration, and pain.
If your opinion is that with the high visual fidelity + large game world means Star Citizen has succeeded, despite my writing an entire paragraph detailing what my "Holy Grail" opinion is, then they should just mark it as released right now, and call it a day. Game complete.
Star Citizen hasn't delivered ANY of what I stated above and which you highlighted. And it won't. As in never. And whatever PC Gamer and GameStar "played" doesn't even amount to ANY of the above, other than visuals. How does having a world that's not even 1% build amount to it succeeding is completely baffling to me.
I like how everything is "should" and "will" though. Gotta keep the faith.
Not a single cliff was walked off this day and of course they can't call it a day. It's your proclamations of impossibility that I'm arguing against. Again, " you can’t have high visual fidelity when you’re trying to build a massive game world." Star Citizen disagrees. Then you say this,
The Holy Grail of immersion for me has always been for the player to be able to exist in first person (aka infantry) mode throughout the entire game world. You’d be able to walk around inside your ship. You’d be able to dock that ship with a station, exit, walk around inside that station. You’d be able to fly your ship directly into a planet, land, exit that ship, enter a building, do stuff etc.
Now please do correct me if I'm wrong but this is EXACTLY what 3.0 is reported to have. Not just reported by the evil, lying CIG devs but also the 'shills' at PCGamer magazine and Gamestar. All at a very high visual fidelity that comes with Cryengine. They've done it. Your holy grail is almost upon us.
They will need to add gameplay elements of course, plus more than half of a single system, (3.1-4.x), before it fully realises Christ's wooden cup status, but the base will be there. Technology done. Impossible, possible. FPS to ship to station to planetoid to FPS again to buildings to ship to space. Seamlessly. Cryengine beautiful. No loading screens.
With SolEd they can create systems pretty quickly and they can be worked on whilst the game elements are also developed. That's the beauty of having multiple studios and hundreds of staff I suppose. Can they get the tech working and stable? Only time will tell. Not you. Not me. Only time.
You mention faith being required and I think you're right there. I had faith I would play Arena commander and, despite delays, I did. I had faith that I would play 2.0 and, despite delays, I did. I had faith I would play Star Marine, (despite it not existing according to you), and, despite delays and a massive rework, I did. I have faith I'll play 3.0 and, despite delays...I reckon I will as well. We'll find out very soon. Looking forward to it.
Will you try it when it drops as well? Will you admit to being wrong with your, 'Star Citizen hasn't delivered ANY of what I stated above and which you highlighted. And it won't. As in never.' comment above?' I mean it's already quite wrong even without 3.0 as your holy grail mentioned FPS to ship to station and that's already in there with 2.0. Saying it will never deliver 'ANY of what' you stated is patently ridiculous when half of it's already in the pre alpha tech demo! It's crazy the rubbish you type sometimes.
If you are new to SC, then I can understand your enthusiasm about game, but old backers are not that excited anymore...too many broken promises...
He's not new. He's one of these guys over on /r/ds engaged in auto-fellatio, while cowardly posting here under an alt, thinking he's winding us up with circular and strawman arguments.
So I quoted something from spectrum and accidentally left my user name in the paste. Looking back at edit logs will have revealed who I am. I'm certainly not new to SC. Backed Jan 2014 if memory serves. I've commented on r ds. I've commented in r SC. In all cases my handle is ConfusedMonkeh.
I haven't tried to suck my own cock since I was about 13 and it has nothing to do with cowardice posting under a different name. It's only because you banned me last year but I enjoy talking about SC so I re registered to chat but without being as confrontational with my comments. It's been fun. You may notice I'm hardly a prolific poster anywhere on the internet, I think this is the most I've posted anywhere about anything, except in my VoiceAttack profile thread on the old RSI forums. It's been stimulating and amusing. Long may it continue.
Post by: dsmart on August 03, 2017, 06:00:03 AM
Not a single cliff was walked off this day and of course they can't call it a day. It's your proclamations of impossibility that I'm arguing against. Again, " you can’t have high visual fidelity when you’re trying to build a massive game world." Star Citizen disagrees. Then you say this,
Your mental gymnastics are impressive, I have to admit. You're still going around in circles. Star Citizen hasn't done ANY of those things. It's not a SINGULAR feature, it's a COLLECTION of features that are part of my claim.
You keep harping on about something nobody is arguing about: visuals
There is no massive world, not even close.
The features aren't there. But you keep claiming they "will be", which completely negates your very own argument.
ALL the collection of features are mentioned - clearly - in my Holy Grail excerpt which YOU brought up, currently DO NOT EXIST in Star Citizen, and will NOT exist in 3.0. So I have NO idea what you're going on about. But keep tying yourself in knots though, we never grow tired of laughing around here.
If you are claiming that 3.0 is going to somehow amount to what I outlined in the Holy Grail, then you're the only one who is delusional.
*snip*
I am just going to ignore everything else, because clearly, it's a waste of time because you're not arguing in good faith.
Quote
So I quoted something from spectrum and accidentally left my user name in the paste. Looking back at edit logs will have revealed who I am. I'm certainly not new to SC. Backed Jan 2014 if memory serves. I've commented on r ds. I've commented in r SC. In all cases my handle is ConfusedMonkeh.
It's cute that you think we don't know who you are (https://www.reddit.com/user/ConfusedMonkeh). You guys are as predictable as a Sunflower in bloom.
Quote
I haven't tried to suck my own cock since I was about 13 and it has nothing to do with cowardice posting under a different name. It's only because you banned me last year but I enjoy talking about SC so I re registered to chat but without being as confrontational with my comments. It's been fun. You may notice I'm hardly a prolific poster anywhere on the internet, I think this is the most I've posted anywhere about anything, except in my VoiceAttack profile thread on the old RSI forums. It's been stimulating and amusing. Long may it continue.
If the hat fits.
And NOBODY gets banned here unless and until they break the rules. I had already pulled up your posting history from your other alt, and that's why I issued the warning yesterday because you appeared to be slipping again, the more you get challenged. The same thing that happened last time. The very fact that you're using an alt to post here, is grounds for immediate banning. But I opted not to ban you because I want to maintain the balance of the discussion seeing as you guys have your echo chamber over on /r/ds and which is discussing this very topic (https://www.reddit.com/r/DerekSmart/comments/6r5t93/in_case_you_guys_havent_been_catching_up_to_speed/).
Post by: Serendipity on August 03, 2017, 06:08:03 AM
You're really not making sense anymore. Are you ok?
Post by: dsmart on August 03, 2017, 06:09:35 AM
What the... I quoted your holy grail comment. It's EXACTLY what is coming in 3.0. FPS to ship to station to planetoid to building. Exactly the same. As evidenced by numerous CIG presentations and recent journalist commentary. How am I not arguing in good faith?
You're really not making sense anymore. Are you ok?
OK now you're just trolling. Are you SERIOUSLY suggesting that everything I posted in my Holy Grail is coming in 3.0? LMAO!!! Are you serious right now?
Post by: Serendipity on August 03, 2017, 06:09:58 AM
Post by: Serendipity on August 03, 2017, 06:10:57 AM
What the... I quoted your holy grail comment. It's EXACTLY what is coming in 3.0. FPS to ship to station to planetoid to building. Exactly the same. As evidenced by numerous CIG presentations and recent journalist commentary. How am I not arguing in good faith?
You're really not making sense anymore. Are you ok?
OK now you're just trolling. Are you SERIOUSLY suggesting that everything I posted in my Holy Grail is coming in 3.0? LMAO!!! Are you serious right now?
FPS to ship to space to planet to building is coming in 3.0. Not much game play admittedly but that was the core of your holy grail. It's coming in 3.0. Foundations. Done.
Post by: Serendipity on August 03, 2017, 06:15:58 AM
Quote
The features aren't there. But you keep claiming they "will be", which completely negates your very own argument
But half of them are. FPS to ship to station to walk about on station is in already. Just need the land on planets part with buildings and things to do and BOOM, there you go. 3.0 has that. Ask the guy from PCGamer again to confirm it if you like. Or we can wait a bit longer.
Post by: dsmart on August 03, 2017, 06:17:26 AM
What the... I quoted your holy grail comment. It's EXACTLY what is coming in 3.0. FPS to ship to station to planetoid to building. Exactly the same. As evidenced by numerous CIG presentations and recent journalist commentary. How am I not arguing in good faith?
You're really not making sense anymore. Are you ok?
OK now you're just trolling. Are you SERIOUSLY suggesting that everything I posted in my Holy Grail is coming in 3.0? LMAO!!! Are you serious right now?
FPS to ship to space to planet to building is coming in 3.0. Not much game play admittedly but that was the core of your holy grail. It's coming in 3.0.
You DO realize that Star Citizen is barely a proof-of-concept tech demo, right? And that even with moons in 3.0, that's all it's going to be?
OK, here, let me break it down for you, and remove all the fluff.
Quote
Being a sci-fi buff, I wanted a game in which one could travel through the stars, meet strange new people, explore, trade, fight, command your crew, and all that. All in space, and on planets, in first person infantry mode, with air, space, and vehicular combat thrown into the mix. I envisioned a mix of Elite with Star Flight, a dash of Sentinel Worlds and Hard Nova, and all the ludicrously complex machinations of the Star Fleet series.
*
- FPS in stations
- FPS in ships
- FPS on planet/moon
- Large universe
- Exploration
- Trading
- Combat
- Crew command
- Aircraft
- Space craft
- Ground vehicles
And this encapsulates the above:
Quote
The Holy Grail of immersion for me has always been for the player to be able to exist in first person (aka infantry) mode throughout the entire game world. You’d be able to walk around inside your ship. You’d be able to dock that ship with a station, exit, walk around inside that station. You’d be able to fly your ship directly into a planet, land, exit that ship, enter a building, do stuff etc.
So please explain to me, as best you can, how Star Citizen 3.0, which is still in pre-Alpha and doesn't even have 15% of its features complete (https://starcitizentracker.github.io/), has managed to somehow achieve all those things. And since you somehow believe that it has, are you now expecting it to be "released" in August?
* NOTE: With the exception of "FPS inside stations and ships", BC/UC games, which in the series are over THREE decades old, have ALL of those features - and then some. And LoD has those missing features, but in a smaller scale. But BC/UC + LOD != Holy Grail for me. One day, I hope to take what's in LoD and which is missing in BC/UC and put it in a new UC game (http://bc3000ad.com) - complete with improved graphics. My Holy Grail achieved. You get the point now?
(http://bc3000ad.com/wp-content/themes/blackaperture-bc3k/images/uc_poster_large.jpg)
Post by: Motto on August 03, 2017, 06:18:06 AM
Now please do correct me if I'm wrong but this is EXACTLY what 3.0 is reported to have. Not just reported by the evil, lying CIG devs but also the 'shills' at PCGamer magazine and Gamestar. All at a very high visual fidelity that comes with Cryengine. They've done it. Your holy grail is almost upon us.
Well, the thing is, even if they managed to implement everything at the same time in alpha build 3.0 (no chance), it also has to work. The fact that it isn't working, is most likely the reason that 3.0 still isn't out there. When 3.0 will get out there, it will be a hell of a ride. And not in the good way. Is doesn't matter how much they try to fix it afterwards, there won't be a stable official game release 1.0. Ever. Because it can't be done. Not now, and definately not with what they try to do with Cryengine. No matter how many tires you add to a suburban town car, you can't pull a fully loaded Australian Roadtrain out of the ditch with it. The car's engine just can't deliver the required power.
Post by: dsmart on August 03, 2017, 06:26:20 AM
I'm not sure why you linked my reddit profile after I told you exactly who I was. That doesn't prove much now does it. As I said, I'm reasonably sure you saw my user name in an edit log. That's ok. Que Sera Sera.
Because it was in support of your previous comment. And your comments are indicative of your motivation here. And note that I didn't "out" you, until you did that yourself. Also, I could simply have just banned your alt.
Post by: Serendipity on August 03, 2017, 06:29:40 AM
What the... I quoted your holy grail comment. It's EXACTLY what is coming in 3.0. FPS to ship to station to planetoid to building. Exactly the same. As evidenced by numerous CIG presentations and recent journalist commentary. How am I not arguing in good faith?
You're really not making sense anymore. Are you ok?
OK now you're just trolling. Are you SERIOUSLY suggesting that everything I posted in my Holy Grail is coming in 3.0? LMAO!!! Are you serious right now?
FPS to ship to space to planet to building is coming in 3.0. Not much game play admittedly but that was the core of your holy grail. It's coming in 3.0.
You DO realize that Star Citizen is barely a proof-of-concept tech demo, right? And that even with moons in 3.0, that's all it's going to be?
OK, here, let me break it down for you, and remove all the fluff.QuoteBeing a sci-fi buff, I wanted a game in which one could travel through the stars, meet strange new people, explore, trade, fight, command your crew, and all that. All in space, and on planets, in first person infantry mode, with air, space, and vehicular combat thrown into the mix. I envisioned a mix of Elite with Star Flight, a dash of Sentinel Worlds and Hard Nova, and all the ludicrously complex machinations of the Star Fleet series.
*
- FPS in stations
- FPS in ships
- FPS on planet/moon
- Large universe
- Exploration
- Trading
- Combat
- Crew command
- Aircraft
- Space craft
- Ground vehicles
And this encapsulates the above:QuoteThe Holy Grail of immersion for me has always been for the player to be able to exist in first person (aka infantry) mode throughout the entire game world. You’d be able to walk around inside your ship. You’d be able to dock that ship with a station, exit, walk around inside that station. You’d be able to fly your ship directly into a planet, land, exit that ship, enter a building, do stuff etc.
So please explain to me, as best you can, how Star Citizen 3.0, which is still in pre-Alpha and doesn't even have 15% of its features complete (https://starcitizentracker.github.io/), has managed to somehow achieve all those things. And since you somehow believe that it has, are you now expecting it to be "released" in August?
* NOTE: With the exception of "FPS inside stations and ships", BC/UC games, which in the series are over THREE decades old, have ALL of those features. And LoD has those missing features, but in a smaller scale. But BC/UC + LOD != Holy Grail for me. One day, I hope to take what's in LOD and which is missing in BC/UC and put it in a new UC game (http://bc3000ad.com).
(http://bc3000ad.com/wp-content/themes/blackaperture-bc3k/images/uc_poster_large.jpg)
Yes I realise the current alpha is bare bones and needs a lot of work before it's a full game.
-FPS in stations. ----- Yes 2.0
-FPS in ships. ---- Yes Starfarer/constellation
- FPS on planet/moon --- Yes in 3.0
- Large universe ---No but it's a pretty damn large single, seamless map with more to come after alpha.
- Exploration ---- Yes 2.0
- Trading. ---- Yes 3.0 kiosks and cargo
- Combat --- Obviously yes
- Crew command ---- Yes 3.0 stations for shield control and what not. Basic but in.
- Aircraft. ---- Yes 3.0 has planetary bodies with atmosphere
- Space craft ---- Yes
- Ground vehicles ----- Yes 3.0 Nox, Ursa, Dragonfly
Just missing the large universe really, an important part but an easy one to accomplish once the foundation of 3.0 is in place.
Your move.
Post by: Serendipity on August 03, 2017, 06:31:20 AM
I'm not sure why you linked my reddit profile after I told you exactly who I was. That doesn't prove much now does it. As I said, I'm reasonably sure you saw my user name in an edit log. That's ok. Que Sera Sera.
Because it was in support of your previous comment. And your comments are indicative of your motivation here. And note that I didn't "out" you, until you did that yourself. Also, I could simply have just banned your alt.
Outing me would have been fine, but thank you I suppose. I wasn't 'hiding' for any reason other than wanting to chat. I knew registering after a previous ban would normally mean an instant ban. I'm not scared of being identified as my online persona. I'm rather proud of that idiot Monkeh. Some people quite like him.
Post by: dsmart on August 03, 2017, 06:34:34 AM
Yes I realise the current alpha is bare bones and needs a lot of work before it's a full game.
-FPS in stations. ----- Yes 2.0
-FPS in ships. ---- Yes Starfarer/constellation
- FPS on planet/moon --- Yes in 3.0
- Large universe ---No but it's a pretty damn large single, seamless map with more to come after alpha.
- Exploration ---- Yes 2.0
- Trading. ---- Yes 3.0 kiosks and cargo
- Combat --- Obviously yes
- Crew command ---- Yes 3.0 stations for shield control and what not. Basic but in.
- Aircraft. ---- Yes 3.0 has planetary bodies with atmosphere
- Space craft ---- Yes
- Ground vehicles ----- Yes 3.0 Nox, Ursa, Dragonfly
Just missing the large universe really, an important part but an easy one to accomplish once the foundation of 3.0 is in place.
Your move.
LOL!! Yeah, that's not how that works.
Also, you just described a proof-of-concept tech demo, while I'm talking about a full and complete game. And by your submission, Star Citizen 3.0, without the large universe, is almost done.
Now I know you're either delusional, or just trolling us. Or you're just confused. Because, damn. This is why Chris gets away with the shit that he does.
Post by: Serendipity on August 03, 2017, 06:40:49 AM
Explains all but one.
That's not how it works!?!?
I'm afraid it is how it works. 3.0 is the basis for creating your holy grail. To quote one dsmart, pucker up, it's coming.
Post by: Motto on August 03, 2017, 06:50:40 AM
Now, a lot of things have been claimed by Chris that he will do. He still has not shown a proof of concept for all those things. There are claims that 3.0 will bring the PoC, but 3.0 is not out there yet. When it will, one can judge if 3.0 is indeed the PoC for everything Chris has claimed. Maybe it will be. However, going from the PoC to an actual live gaming enviroment as envisioned from the Kickstrater campaign and onwards, that's never gonna happen. Maybe if CIG had unlimited resources and would start from scratch with building a custom game engine. But still, that's a big maybe.
Post by: Serendipity on August 03, 2017, 07:21:55 AM
Really looking forward to having a good go myself.
Post by: Ghostmaker on August 03, 2017, 06:32:48 PM
Yes of course. I believe the PCGamer journalist that Derek asked on twitter. He played it. He landed on a moon. It's happening. It's coming soon. August? Dunno. Don't care. Just like the other milstones, AC, 2.0, Star Marine etc, all took their time. All arrived. All got better and more stable with updates.Frankly, it had better knock the socks off everyone, because right now it's in Daikatana/Duke Nukem Forever territory.
Really looking forward to having a good go myself.
Post by: GaryII on August 04, 2017, 03:00:05 AM
- Exploration ---- Yes 2.0
There is nothing to explore in SC currently...there even is no scanners after 5-6 years :D
Exploration in SC is dead on arrival, because their "Galaxy" is just to small to have unique experience like it is in ED.
Post by: dsmart on August 04, 2017, 05:05:00 AM
- Exploration ---- Yes 2.0
There is nothing to explore in SC currently...there even is no scanners after 5-6 years :D
Exploration in SC is dead on arrival, because their "Galaxy" is just to small to have unique experience like it is in ED.
What? Don't you feel like "exploring" the same POIs in the shoebox space region or on the barren moons?
Post by: Serendipity on August 04, 2017, 05:14:47 AM
The moons aren't precisely barren in 3.0 as there will be POIs and derelict ships and some outposts too plus who knows what else. They can't have told us everything they've made.
Agreed that it's small right now but that will change as stuff gets added. Hopefully it won't just be a slightly different coloured planet and one of 5 different station designs as well.
Post by: Serendipity on August 04, 2017, 05:28:29 AM
(http://i.imgur.com/PKMzHtU.jpg)
Is that one hyperbole, failed analytics or just a fabrication designed to spread FUD?
Post by: StanTheMan on August 04, 2017, 05:41:34 AM
Oh and by the way, here's another of Derek's guarantees.
(http://i.imgur.com/PKMzHtU.jpg)
Is that one hyperbole, failed analytics or just a fabrication designed to spread FUD?
It wouldnt matter if it was.
Post by: StanTheMan on August 04, 2017, 05:43:32 AM
There's some exploring to be done around the asteroid belt in 2.6. Weapon crates, derelict ships and a 'Bennyhenge' to be found.
The moons aren't precisely barren in 3.0 as there will be POIs and derelict ships and some outposts too plus who knows what else. They can't have told us everything they've made.
Agreed that it's small right now but that will change as stuff gets added. Hopefully it won't just be a slightly different coloured planet and one of 5 different station designs as well.
It MIGHT change not it WILL change.
If it does Change it will not be anything close to what CRoberts has told backers they are going to be able to do in SC with all these JPEGs he has sold them.. is it ?
Post by: GaryII on August 04, 2017, 05:44:42 AM
Is that one hyperbole, failed analytics or just a fabrication designed to spread FUD?
Only thing that Derek underestimates is people addition to SC - only Whales are keeping this project alive...
Will see how this turns out this year, because after last ATV v3.0 is officially MIA...
So prepare your money to save the project for one more year!
Post by: GaryII on August 04, 2017, 05:49:05 AM
There's some exploring to be done around the asteroid belt in 2.6. Weapon crates, derelict ships and a 'Bennyhenge' to be found.
Yeah, this sounds very fun you can do it for years I bet, here is some guy playing some very low fidelity game, that probably uses very common used and absolute tech:
I am sorry, but SC currently can NOT beat even this.. Shame :D
Post by: dsmart on August 04, 2017, 06:32:39 AM
Oh and by the way, here's another of Derek's guarantees.
Is that one hyperbole, failed analytics or just a fabrication designed to spread FUD?
Anyone with a brain knows what hyperbole is. Clearly you don't, or are willfully ignoring it.
ps: As with your previous alt, since you're not interested in reasonable good faith discussions, only engaging in attacks and trolling, your other alt has been banned. Have fun on Reddit, ConfusedMonkeh. :wave:
Post by: Motto on August 04, 2017, 07:44:56 AM
Post by: dsmart on August 04, 2017, 08:26:05 AM
Post by: dsmart on August 04, 2017, 08:29:03 AM
I think it would be wiser to keep Serendipity here but without arguing him on all aspects - as that is pointless - rather than kicking him out. That'll only feed the Reddit trolls. They already seem to think that Serendipity is bitchslappin' you around constantly.
OK. I will just issue him a warning then.
Post by: Meowz on August 04, 2017, 09:23:22 AM
Please explain how it's acheived all of those things.
Explains all but one.
That's not how it works!?!?
I'm afraid it is how it works. 3.0 is the basis for creating your holy grail. To quote one dsmart, pucker up, it's coming.
You keep explaining "proof of concept", but there is a lot more behind an actual "game" than a "proof of concept". Just the inability of the servers to host more than 24 people (and the fact that if all 24 people are together its not really playable) is preventing it from reaching "game" status even if 100% of the content and mechanics were complete, which they are far farm currently.
Next we don't have professions, we don't have capital ships, we don't have the vast majority of what the "game" is described to have. Would you be able to sit down and play this game as is everyday for 4-6 hours for the next 10 years (CR's goal for SC) and remain equally satisfied? You're lying if you say yes, because it isn't a game.
Let me break it down further, lets say I came to you in flip-flips, shorts and a white T saying I would complete a marathon if you gave me :10bux:. You've never seen me run, you don't know how good of shape I'm in, you don't even know if I have running shoes. I ask you to sponsor me which you do, and you give me way more :10bux: than I asked for. I promised you that I would "finish" the marathon, not just "start it", I also told you I would run it in about "x" amount of time.
So later I show up in high tech running gear with a headset and say I am ready to go, but I tell you its going to take me time to get my endurance up. You see me stretch, and mess with my high tech gadgets that I didn't really need to run the marathon (heart rate monitor, fancy waterbottle, oakley sunglasses, fitbit with gps, top of the line shoes, etc...) and I say, "Rest assured I can run!" and then I run a whole 20ft for you. Ok so now you know it is possible for me to run (the modules) great, but showing you I can run 20ft doesn't mean I can run a marathon. You take me at my word however and give me some :10bux:.
So now I tell you I am ready to run the marathon and when the gun goes off I quickly sprint 20ft then slow down to a very leisurely jog. You start to get worried, but I tell you to "Relax I always slow down, but the more ground I cover the faster I get!" You think "Sure, I mean no one can sprint a marathon so that seems reasonable." While the marathon doesn't have a time limit I did tell you I was going to finish it in "x" amount of time. Now I am not even 20% done and that time is coming up so you are getting worried. I tell you to "Relax, I become lightning fast later on, but it is going to take me a bit longer than I thought." You sigh an "ok" and let me go on.
Well now its well past the "x" time you gave me and ask whats going on. I tell you "Its harder than it looks, BUT LOOK AT ALL THE PROGRESS I'VE MADE!" Yeah true, but then you think of how much I STILL HAVE TO RUN to even make it to the finish line. Now you are getting frustrated because you sponsored me thinking I was a good runner, and so far I've been barely jogging. I've shown you nothing faster than my slow jog during the marathon except for that 20ft I sprinted while asking for money.
You are seriously starting to doubt if I can even finish the marathon, but I keep telling you otherwise. Then the marathon event planner comes up to you and says, "hey if he doesn't finish it soon you are going to have to pay dues again just to keep the event staff here." Time isn't up yet, but all you see is me leisurely jogging. I have used up 3/4 of the race time without having finished 1/4 of the distance. Every time I mention it to you I say "BUT LOOK HOW FAR I'VE RAN!!"
Its not the distance that I've ran that worries you, its the length I have left to run while running at my current pace. All the while having to pay the event staff to stay here. Your wallet is getting lighter and lighter while I'm leisurely jogging seemingly wasting your money and time being here waiting for me to finish. You know I can't make the time I told you I would finish it in, now you are worried if I can even finish the marathon at all.
Post by: Motto on August 04, 2017, 10:49:34 AM
But the main thing is that they have to build it to a fully functional online (semi-MMO) game. If, and that's still a very very big if (actually it isn't), they manage to get all those DS9 components working into a decent gamebuild they're still not there. Because they still need to expand that gamebuild into the fully massive build for the whole world. And that is what never ever is going to work.
The thing is, at what point do you declare that CIG has done what couldn't be done? Is it when they manage to lauch a tiny little mini-rocket that fits in your hand and shoot it upwards for a couple of feet, or is it when they have have a fleet of working rockets like NASA and ESA have, that actually can deliver tons of payload into space? I wouldn't start partying yet with the little handsized rocket.
Most importantly, they keep on bragging about the paint they use and the stickers they put on the side. They also make beautiful clips where they show how they mix the paint and how they place the stickers on the side. They forget to mention that everytime they try to launch a rocket, they need to throw it in the air by hand beacuse the engine still won't fire up and after they've thrown it into the air, it usually explodes.
Still, they have pretty pictures of new labels that could go on the side. If you buy one, you might see it someday on a rocket. They promise!
Post by: Serendipity on August 04, 2017, 01:14:35 PM
It doesn't matter if CIG have done anything new or not. Is it fun? That's all that matters. Right now fun is in short supply. As the mechanics get added to the huge, contiguous system map I reckon lots of people will find fun to be had.
I'd like to ask what the problem is with whales funding the project too please. What is bad about funding coming in from any source? Isn't it kind of brilliant that they've marketed the game as pc melting, super fidelity, push your PC to the limits because the people with money to burn are EXACTLY the people who enjoy building monster rigs and showing off the latest tech on them. Money to spend on pc components, money to spend on JPEGs. It's really very, very clever.
Post by: Motto on August 04, 2017, 02:04:57 PM
More importantly, they are lying to backers. There not telling the truth. Probably because of moneyproblems, but maybe for other reason(s) too.
If you are operating under an open environment, you say "hey guys, we've decided to move to Lumberyard (because of...) so in the next weeks, you might see that. Don't try to sneak it in. And when caught, don't lie further by saying "oh, it took 2 engineers not even half a morning to do so". Don't sell ships this week with no mention of delays, mention delays the next week, then sell ships with no mention of delays, stop the sale and mention delays etc. Don't keep on changing the date with 2 weeks at a time when you know it's gonna be months. Just be honest.
But that is the problem. The moment Chris starts telling the truth, the project is dead. Imagine Chris going up at Games Com and saying "Hey guys, listen up. It seems building this game is way more complicated than I ever could forsee, so here's the thing.... don't expect a new alpha release for at least a year. It's just not going to happen. Besides that, we're out of money, so if you want us to continue building this game, you all need to spend at least € 100,- every month. Yeah, I know I said we'd do it in 3 years and at 65m everything was fully funded and so, but, uh, yeah - handwaving starts - I fucked that up. Sorry."
If CIG had the capabilities to build this game, there should have been more progress by now. If there are not having difficulties, why isn't there are simple core that everyone can play that they extend with every release? Remember, this is still an Alpha build. Why the fuck do you need to polish? We're not at the MVP or something. You build the core, the networking, the engine. When that is working, you add posters on the wall in the sleepingquarters. You don't start with making the poster in the sleepingquarters and you definately don't keep on enhancing that poster when you can't leave the sleepingquarters because everything after the door isn't programmed yet.
If CIG had enough funding, they should have stopped the sales. Since they can't deliver what they promised, don't ask for more money if you have enough. Build and deliver what you agreed upon and then start asking for money again.
For now, CIG appears to be a company that sells stuff, but hardly delivers. And if they make a statement about delivering, they brake it. First the dates, and finally with what they deliver.
Backers started to ask for schedules and estimates because there wasn't any real progress. The progress made only sucked big time. When Chris couldn't contain that any longer, he started to lie to keep the backers at ease. At Games Com, if he truthfully had said the next build is probably a year away, CIG would have been done by now. And back then, he knew he was lying straight through his teeth. But he had no choice, being honest would have killed the game.
Remember Derek saying for some time now that they can't build a decent 3.0 build that will be ready to put out there and that they will keep on delaying it and delaying it? Are you willing to state here that Derek was right? That in fact CIG has been delaying and delaying and delaying the 3.0 build. Never mind the reason(s) for it, Derek predicted 3.0 not being read for release any time soon despite the schedules. Was he right?
Post by: dsmart on August 04, 2017, 03:34:21 PM
I understand the game isn't finished and I understand you don't think it can be. I disagree. In my opinion, 3.0 is a large step in the right direction, not just for planetary landings but the rest of the large list of technology and systems finished and coming online with its release making fleshing the game out possible. For me, as a gamer, it's exciting.
It doesn't matter if CIG have done anything new or not. Is it fun? That's all that matters. Right now fun is in short supply. As the mechanics get added to the huge, contiguous system map I reckon lots of people will find fun to be had.
I don't believe anyone is disputing any of the above. I know I'm not. They're all opinions, and both sides, even those in the middle, have their own opinions on all of that.
The issue is that CIG is routinely and consistently LYING to backers about the TRUE state of the project. If they were telling the truth, aside from the alarm that it would cause, there is a very good chance that even their most hardcore supporters would likely have bailed (as so many already have) by now.
Imagine what would happen if Chris came out and said that the game, as pitched, won't be out until around 2021, which is what I've said sources who have access to the internal schedule, have told me.
And it is the above behavior is why publishers/distributors have milestones which have payments and schedules attached. You don't deliver, you don't get paid. You change the design without publisher (the producer) approval, you run into issues with payment if you have to justify those changes.
So what Chris has done, is basically what he NEVER could do with a publisher. And backers who think they're publishers, are fucking morons because publishers have COMPLETE CONTROL over the project, the schedule, the direction, and the money. The only control backers have is to the money. And even so, if they believed that CIG had enough cash - as they claimed - to finish the project, there would be no need to keep raising money.
All of the above is why the game is almost 3 years late and $91M+ over budget after raising $65M to build the increased scope. There is no disputing these facts. A publisher would have terminated the project the minute it was into $35M and still in pre-Alpha. They would NEVER have allowed the game to blow through $65M, let alone $155M while still in pre-Alpha. Not in a million years.
Quote
I'd like to ask what the problem is with whales funding the project too please. What is bad about funding coming in from any source? Isn't it kind of brilliant that they've marketed the game as pc melting, super fidelity, push your PC to the limits because the people with money to burn are EXACTLY the people who enjoy building monster rigs and showing off the latest tech on them. Money to spend on pc components, money to spend on JPEGs. It's really very, very clever.
You're delusional if you think those are the reasons why people backed the project. One look at all the complaints about the game's performance issues is enough evidence that you're wrong.
And nobody is telling people how to spend their money. This isn't, and never was, about that. Obviously the average 2K backers, out of around 600K confirmed backers, still giving them money, are doing so for their own reasons. And we don't care why.
This whole discourse has NOTHING to do with now people choose to spend their money. If you think that's what this is about, clearly you're ignorant, not paying attention, or just don't care about the bigger picture at play.
Post by: dsmart on August 04, 2017, 03:45:31 PM
Remember Derek saying for some time now that they can't build a decent 3.0 build that will be ready to put out there and that they will keep on delaying it and delaying it? Are you willing to state here that Derek was right? That in fact CIG have been delaying and delaying and delaying the 3.0 build. Never mind the reason(s) for it, Derek predicted 3.0 not being read for release any time soon despite the schedules. Was he right?
Indeed. And I've said this since Dec 2016 when I wrote that SEVERAL sources claimed that the 3.0 which Chris had pitched as coming Dec 2016, simply did NOT exist.
Let's ignore the "promises vs goal" bullshit semantics those guys are using to defend what he said, the FACT is that, now, EIGHT months later, 3.0 is NOWHERE near ready. So what led Chris to believe - in Aug 19 2016 - that 3.0 was anywhere near ready to release +4 months later? How is it that, we're back at GamesCom and ONE YEAR later, that very same 3.0 is incomplete and nowhere release?
FF to 23:35
Post by: Motto on August 04, 2017, 03:46:30 PM
The issue is that CIG is routinely and consistently LYING to backers about the TRUE state of the project. If they were telling the truth, aside from the alarm that it would cause, there is a very good chance that even their most hardcore supporters would likely have bailed (as so many already have) by now.
And the thing is, they can't stop asking for more money. If they had enough, they wouldn't ask anymore by now. Because when you keep asking for money without delivering, you know that's gonna bite you in the ass someday. Why take that chance if you don't need to? Take a couple of extra millions, okay, but more than doubling it (assuming the funding tracker is (mostly) correct)? You only do that because you need the money. But by admitting you need the money, you'll kill all your funding at once. So, nothing to do but to keep on lying to your backers and hoping and praying that at some point in time you get so far that you don't have legal problems to worry about. But even with unlimited funding, that's not going to happen. CIG is on a road to nowhere, and keeps on buying fuel with other peoples money.
Post by: Serendipity on August 04, 2017, 10:59:38 PM
Post by: Serendipity on August 05, 2017, 12:26:59 AM
Far too many of over 7k responses said they would either buy more ships or maybe buy more ships.
Way more than half of responders don't care about the number of sales or want more of them, again, destroying the 'backers up in arms' or 'tired of endless sales' narratives.
Facts hurting the FUD yet again.
Thanks for posting them Derek, very useful information.
Post by: Motto on August 05, 2017, 03:02:21 AM
Still, it clearly shows that there still are a number of utterly stupid people who don't (want to) realise that they're only wasting their money. Wasting as in, they are not going to get a working game for all the money they're spending. I really am worried about what some of those huge spenders might do after CIG collapses and their thousands and thousands of dollars are gone.
On the other hand, if somebody at this moment still buys stuff from CIG, maybe they deserve it. If you clearly don't want to listen, you just have to feel.
What is has to do with FUD, I don't know. I don't have any Fear or Uncertainty that Star Citizen is a Disaster.
Post by: Darklegend1 on August 05, 2017, 03:09:48 AM
[/quote]
Let's ignore the "promises vs goal" bullshit semantics those guys are using to defend what he said, the FACT is that, now, EIGHT months later, 3.0 is NOWHERE near ready. So what led Chris to believe - in Aug 19 2016 - that 3.0 was anywhere near ready to release +4 months later? How is it that, we're back at GamesCom and ONE YEAR later, that very same 3.0 is incomplete and nowhere release?
They are spinning the lie that scope of 3.0 has increased substantially before planetary landings were limited to predetermined landing locations through cutscenes and now they have legendary landings anywhere you want on the
Chris himself one year ago showed a landing where he said you can land anywhere on the planet then he showed landing in which there was flora as well So i dont know how the moron backers think but it seems to me the scope has decreased.
But then again if they want to get ripped and open their wallets to this con again then who are we to stop them. let them get fucked up over again. Chris roberts has struck gold here whatever he does or does not the money flow is not stopping so he is better to stretch this as long as possible then to actually deliver mvp. :laugh: :laugh:
I look back and see myself being blind to all these facts and thought the same way the faithful backers are like now but i took some time to come to my senses and so do they, it only depends how long the other backers take.
Post by: Motto on August 05, 2017, 03:18:40 AM
I'm still awaiting an answer from Serendipity though, about Derek being right on the 3.0 delays.
Now, from the latest schedule delay, how about this masterpiece of text. All hail the wordartists :woop:
BUG PROCESS
As we are approaching the end of our larger feature work, now we can start to properly review the current gameplay experience with all our directors involved. These reviews identify areas where some more polish is required to deliver a better gameplay experience. As we have done with our previous releases, we’re adding this section to outline the higher ticket items that we feel need some more work before we are comfortable releasing a build to our backers. You will also find an overview of bugs/tasks that have been fixed over the past week, along with a bug burndown chart taken from our tracking software to help illustrate this fix rate a little better.
USER EXPERIENCE POLISH PASS :
Improvement of our overall framerate
We have decided to spend time increasing performance on the client and server side.
Player Count & General Stability
Currently, performance and stability drop sharply once the active players in a server reach 12-15 players.
Cockpit Experience
The Cockpit Experience sprint team is focused on improving the overall player experience in the cockpit through adjustments to cockpit geo, character placement, g-force/hit reactions, VFX, Audio, UI, and code support for things like camera shaking and hooking into ship health systems to display proper damage.
Space Landscaping
We are working on some extra Graphics code for the GPU particle system to support the creation of new VFX to implement space dust at points around Stanton. This will continue to be iterated on to create some more elaborate assets.
Basic Ship Security
With the gameplay we’re adding in to 3.0.0, we’re conscious that there may be some other players that would love to kill you and take your ship. To help prevent this, we wanted to implement some basic security that will allow you to lock the ship, so only you have the ability to pass freely through its doors.
Rotating and Orbiting Planets
We are very keen to make the Stanton map feel more organic as a real environment and having the planets rotate and orbit will really help with this.
This will also introduce a proper day/night cycle when you’re on a planet surface which in turn opens up further gameplay possibilities.
Player Interaction System – User Experience Improvements
We’re want to give players the ability to more intuitively interact with items and objects within the game, but also find ways to indicate to the player what type of interaction they would be performing (pick up, start conversation, push button, etc).
Race Tracks on Planets
To give our planetary environments extra points of interest, and also an excuse to drive ground-based vehicles around at high speed, we thought the best way to do this was to build some rudimentary race tracks on the planets that would have been previously used by the research teams as a way to blow off steam and have fun.
Yes, they are almost there for a stable release. It's seems they really, really know where the priorities should be after all those years of delaying the baisc game with core components :doh:
Post by: Darklegend1 on August 05, 2017, 03:23:23 AM
That wasn't my quote :smuggo: But never mind, I agree with Derek's answer :D
ahh sorry man my bad!!
Post by: Serendipity on August 05, 2017, 04:11:31 AM
Quote
I don't know why Derek removed the charts
I told you. It's because they don't support his narrative. If half of 7k backers are willing to spend more money on ships, in itself more than 2k, then how many of 1.8 million forum accounts are willing to spend more money on ships?
Quote
...they are not going to get a working game...
Holy confirmation bias Batman! You don't know that.
Quote
What is has to do with FUD, I don't know. I don't have any Fear or Uncertainty that Star Citizen is a Disaster.
Yes you do. Pretending there's only 2k people spending money now is an attempt at making others nervous about spending their money. The project isn't a disaster. It's taking time but that doesn't mean it's disastrous.
Quote
I'm still awaiting an answer from Serendipity though, about Derek being right on the 3.0 delays.
Derek might have sources within CIG, I don't know, but asking how someone managed to predict that CIG, known for missing their estimated release dates, would miss an estimated release date isn't exactly Nobel prize level thinking is it? Especially with something as technologically difficult as 3.0 and knowing the caveats from the schedule report that often get completely ignored around here. It's almost like you lot deliberately forget they're there for some reason...
This is an interesting Reddit thread talking about Derek's sources: https://www.reddit.com/r/DerekSmart/comments/6roc1t/a_user_on_gamestar_reveals_that_derek_does_not/
Makes you think huh?
Quote
I look back and see myself being blind to all these facts and thought the same way the faithful backers are like now but i took some time to come to my senses
Interesting. I would say it took you some time to realise you can't build a game development company from nothing and create a groundbreaking video game whilst massively increasing the scope of said video game in a few short years and were caught up in a FUD campaign which is falling apart with every month CIG stay in business and with every update on development progress. But that's just me.
You'd say I'm gulible and stupid for believing the hype. I'd say you're gullible and stupid for believing Derek's
Time will tell gentlemen. We can argue as much as we like. It don't mean poop. Only CIG can prove anyone right or wrong and only in time. Can't wait to find out who's right.
Post by: dsmart on August 05, 2017, 04:24:37 AM
I don't know why Derek removed the charts, but the poll itself is here (https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1FAIpQLSdSMo9rzkW1GGZa14wBmFJql4Z2-CcLf5QPSaFbSETH1iWxsw/viewform) and all the results are here (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/11ME0w7TGxz7KeTfyxlI8YxH564RZFONQZNqz-JCqsx0/edit#gid=243923190). So you can make your own charts. That the responses do not represent the whole of the SC community goes without saying.
Still, it clearly shows that there still are a number of utterly stupid people who don't (want to) realise that they're only wasting their money. Wasting as in, they are not going to get a working game for all the money they're spending. I really am worried about what some of those huge spenders might do after CIG collapses and their thousands and thousands of dollars are gone.
On the other hand, if somebody at this moment still buys stuff from CIG, maybe they deserve it. If you clearly don't want to listen, you just have to feel.
What is has to do with FUD, I don't know. I don't have any Fear or Uncertainty that Star Citizen is a Disaster.
What charts? The ones from yesterday? I posted them in the wrong forum so I relocated them. They are still on this page (http://www.dereksmart.com/forum/index.php?topic=9.720). And we have an entire section for actual data analytics (http://www.dereksmart.com/forum/index.php?topic=53.0).
There are still around 2K out of about 600K (the $1.5M count is rubbish, due to dupes) still putting money into this. And those analytics are very simple to run because the "clearly not fake" monthly funding is public.
Post by: dsmart on August 05, 2017, 04:34:31 AM
Quote
I don't know why Derek removed the charts
I told you. It's because they don't support his narrative. If half of 7k backers are willing to spend more money on ships, in itself more than 2k, then how many of 1.8 million forum accounts are willing to spend more money on ships?
Nice try.
And if we're talking about this chart, please explain to me how this has anything to do with the data about the average of 2K backers still propping up the project.
(https://i.imgur.com/tQ3VyZt.png)
Quote
This is an interesting Reddit thread talking about Derek's sources: https://www.reddit.com/r/DerekSmart/comments/6roc1t/a_user_on_gamestar_reveals_that_derek_does_not/
Makes you think huh?
Yeah, it would make morons think. Anyway, you are very late to the party (http://www.dereksmart.com/forum/index.php?topic=9.735). Again, nice try.
Post by: dsmart on August 05, 2017, 05:27:28 AM
Latest Star Citizen dev schedule is out. They went from clarity to obfuscation. Also dumped in a bunch of NEW crap to already LATE build.
Analysis below. It's not looking good. In fact, it's way worse. This explains Chris's demeanor and scared look in last AtV.
Diff: http://www.mergely.com/5yUuauMr/?wl=1
Schedule Report: https://robertsspaceindustries.com/schedule-report
(https://robertsspaceindustries.com/media/6iuqpt0i1rraer/source/Bug_process.png)
Quote
While it seems impressive that they finished 7 tasks, keep in mind that
- 3 of those tasks still need bug fixing, which is really more obfuscation on how things are progressing.
- 3 More of those tasks were cosmetic fluff changes they added just a few weeks ago (and still managed to delay).
- 2 of those tasks had ETAs listed as June 9th. They were forgotten about for 2 months. So it's hard to say if they were completed 2 months ago or just recently.
- 1 of these (volumetric fog) was a feature that should've been easily ported over from lumberyard.
Notice the part about the server dying with 12-15 clients? That's not even new; but now they're acknowledging it so that becomes a "known issue". I had written (http://www.dereksmart.com/forum/index.php?topic=9.msg1728#msg1728) about this performance issue back in June and also written (http://dereksmart.com/forums/topic/sc-scoop/#post-5521) about it again (with more detail) in July.
EXCUSES:
Quote
As mentioned in Around the Verse, as the majority of 3.0’s new features are now completed, we have shifted focus to feature/content integration, optimization and bug fixing. Aside from updating the few remaining outstanding features that are being developed, we’re adding a new section that will describe some of the major blocker bugs that have occurred over the past week, a detailed list of the bugs that were resolved, and a burndown report that will feature overall tracking of remaining bugs.
PURE FUD:
Quote
Completed: 7
Delayed: 3
Regressed: 2
Remaining: 9 (was 13)
Needs bug-fixing: 17 (was 14)
Total In-progress: 26 (was 30)
Furthest ETA: TBD or Aug 16th
COMPLETED:
Quote
- INVENTORY SYSTEM SUPPORT (Needs bug fixing)
- INVENTORY SYSTEM (Code Complete. Bug fixing to follow)
- MISSION BOARD APP (Feature Complete. Bug fixing in progress)
- VOLUMETRIC FOG
- RSI AURORA
- APOCALYPSE ARMS SCOURGE RAIL GUN
- GEMINI L86 PISTOL
DELAYED:
Quote
- ENTITY OWNER MANAGER - ETA is 11th August
Reason: LA Engineering identified further additional tasks needed to support persistence and netcode.
- CHARACTER CUSTOMIZATION - Still TBD
- SHIP SELECTOR APP & INSURANCE CLAIM - ETA is 11th August (was 3rd August)
Reason: Code is complete and now needs final hookup. Unfortunately, this has been delayed due to supporting bug fixing on the Arena Commander Loadout and Personal Manager. We need to have these features in a better state before too much progress is made on Vehicle customization. Otherwise, we would run the risk of having even more bugs to fix later.
REGRESSED:
Quote
- PLAYER MANNED TURRETS (No ETA)
- MISSION BOARD APP
OPEN:
Quote
- MISSION GIVERS
- ENTITY OWNER MANAGER
- CHARACTER CUSTOMIZATION
- VEHICLE CUSTOMIZER APP
- SHIP SELECTOR APP & INSURANCE CLAIM
- COMMS SYSTEM UI
- MISSION SYSTEM
- RENDER TO TEXTURE
- PLAYER MANNED TURRETS
BUG FIXING:
Quote
- INVENTORY SYSTEM SUPPORT
- INVENTORY SYSTEM
- ITEM 2.0 SHIP CONVERSION – PART 2
- INSURANCE
- DOORS AND AIRLOCKS
- CARGO
- CARGO MANIFEST APP
- KIOSK SUPPORT
- REPAIR
- HINT SYSTEM
- PERSONAL MANAGER APP
- MISSION MANAGER APP
- MISSION BOARD APP
- PHYSICS SERIALIZATION
- DRAKE DRAGONFLY
- RSI CONSTELLATION AQUILLA
- MISC PROSPECTOR
To make things worse, they added a slew of NEW items to the already bloated and LATE build. With no ETA. And NONE of them are going to be easy to implement.
Basically, they just added another +4-6 months or so to the schedule. I bet they are going to implement this in 3.0.x builds without encroaching on 3.1.
In case you were wondering why this is interesting, it's because I had previously written back in May (http://dereksmart.com/forums/topic/sc-scoop/#post-5276) that the internal dev schedule was NOT the same as the public one. So they appear to have decided to come clean with parts of the actual dev schedule now. Wow.
Quote
USER EXPERIENCE POLISH PASS :
Improvement of our overall framerate
We have decided to spend time increasing performance on the client and server side.
Player Count & General Stability
Currently, performance and stability drop sharply once the active players in a server reach 12-15 players.
Cockpit Experience
The Cockpit Experience sprint team is focused on improving the overall player experience in the cockpit through adjustments to cockpit geo, character placement, g-force/hit reactions, VFX, Audio, UI, and code support for things like camera shaking and hooking into ship health systems to display proper damage.
Space Landscaping
We are working on some extra Graphics code for the GPU particle system to support the creation of new VFX to implement space dust at points around Stanton. This will continue to be iterated on to create some more elaborate assets.
Basic Ship Security
With the gameplay we’re adding in to 3.0.0, we’re conscious that there may be some other players that would love to kill you and take your ship. To help prevent this, we wanted to implement some basic security that will allow you to lock the ship, so only you have the ability to pass freely through its doors.
Rotating and Orbiting Planets
We are very keen to make the Stanton map feel more organic as a real environment and having the planets rotate and orbit will really help with this.
This will also introduce a proper day/night cycle when you’re on a planet surface which in turn opens up further gameplay possibilities.
Player Interaction System – User Experience Improvements
We’re want to give players the ability to more intuitively interact with items and objects within the game, but also find ways to indicate to the player what type of interaction they would be performing (pick up, start conversation, push button, etc).
Race Tracks on Planets
To give our planetary environments extra points of interest, and also an excuse to drive ground-based vehicles around at high speed, we thought the best way to do this was to build some rudimentary race tracks on the planets that would have been previously used by the research teams as a way to blow off steam and have fun.
Fucking LOL if you still have money in this train wreck. :lol: :lol: :lol:
Post by: Motto on August 05, 2017, 07:41:35 AM
Remember Derek saying for some time now that they can't build a decent 3.0 build that will be ready to put out there and that they will keep on delaying it and delaying it? Are you willing to state here that Derek was right? That in fact CIG has been delaying and delaying and delaying the 3.0 build. Never mind the reason(s) for it, Derek predicted 3.0 not being ready for release any time soon despite the schedules. Was he right?
Derek might have sources within CIG, I don't know, but asking how someone managed to predict that CIG, known for missing their estimated release dates, would miss an estimated release date isn't exactly Nobel prize level thinking is it? Especially with something as technologically difficult as 3.0 and knowing the caveats from the schedule report that often get completely ignored around here. It's almost like you lot deliberately forget they're there for some reason...
So, you're not willing to admit that Derek was right. Your argument being that since CIG basically always misses their release dates, not to mention that those are "estimated" release dates so they can do with them whatever they want (why give them in the first place?), therefore predicting they miss a schedule isn't that difficult. Okay...
Let's try it again. Derek has been predicting for quite some time now that 3.0 is nowhere near a state that it is ready to be released nor that it will be on short term. That at least contradicts the words from Chris but hey, never mind. Now, what do you think is a proper timeframe to confirm Derek was right? How much extra time would it take for CIG not to release 3.0 for you to confirm that Derek was right about the state of 3.0? Another 2 months? 4 months? 6 months? If I give an estimated release date of June and that date steadily moves backwards now into September, maybe that is to be expected. But at what point at still not releasing 3.0 is it clear that Chris was talking out of his ass? What do you think? Or are you willing to say that no matter how much further delays on 3.0, that still doesn't prove Derek right with him saying that 3.0 is nowhere near to be released?
And, Derek predicts that the 3.0 build is still so crappy that that's why they haven't released it yet. They don't want to repeat the disaster that was the 2.0 / 2.5 release. But, in the end, they have to put 3.0 out there. Are you willing to agree now that if the 3.0 is as crappy as shit when it's being released, that Derek was right about that? Or are you going to use the excuse that no matter how long and hard they worked on the 3.0 build (see all the schedule updates and the AtV's et cetera for that, now more than a year since Chris said they were working on it) that is because they are doing things nobody has done before? If so, when will they deliver something that actually works? With 4.0? With 5.0? At what point would you stop saying "they're trying to" and start saying "they can't"? 2018? 2019? 2020? How much time are you willing to give Chris to put out a decent enough build to go from alpha to beta? Despite his promises made when starting this project.
Other than CIG collapsing and filing for bankruptcy, something that obviously would proof Derek right, what would it take for you to admit Derek was right? Please tell me, I'm really curious.
Post by: dsmart on August 05, 2017, 08:34:40 AM
Remember Derek saying for some time now that they can't build a decent 3.0 build that will be ready to put out there and that they will keep on delaying it and delaying it? Are you willing to state here that Derek was right? That in fact CIG has been delaying and delaying and delaying the 3.0 build. Never mind the reason(s) for it, Derek predicted 3.0 not being read for release any time soon despite the schedules. Was he right?Derek might have sources within CIG, I don't know, but asking how someone managed to predict that CIG, known for missing their estimated release dates, would miss an estimated release date isn't exactly Nobel prize level thinking is it? Especially with something as technologically difficult as 3.0 and knowing the caveats from the schedule report that often get completely ignored around here. It's almost like you lot deliberately forget they're there for some reason...
So, you're not willing to admit that Derek was right. Your argument being that since CIG basically always misses their release dates, not to mention that those are "estimated" release dates so they can do with them whatever they want (why give them in the first place?), therefore predicting they miss a schedule isn't that difficult. Okay...
Let's try it again. Derek has been predicting for quite some time now that 3.0 is nowhere near a state that it is ready to be released nor that it will be on short term. That at least contradicts the words from Chris but hey, never mind. Now, what do you think is a proper timeframe to confirm Derek was right? How much extra time would it take for CIG not to release 3.0 for you to confirm that Derek was right about the state of 3.0? Another 2 months? 4 months? 6 months? If I give an estimated release date of June and that date steadily moves backwards now into September, maybe that is to be expected. But at what point at still not releasing 3.0 is it clear that Chris was talking out of his ass? What do you think? Or are you willing to say that no matter how much further delays on 3.0, that still doesn't prove Derek right with him saying that 3.0 is nowhere near to be released?
And, Derek predicts that the 3.0 build is still so crappy that that's why they haven't released it yet. They don't want to repeat the disaster that was the 2.0 / 2.5 release. But, in the end, they have to put 3.0 out there. Are you willing to agree now that if the 3.0 is as crappy as shit when it's being released, that Derek was right about that? Or are you going to use the excuse that no matter how long and hard they worked on the 3.0 build (see all the schedule updates and the AtV's et cetera for that, now more than a year since Chris said they were working on it) that is because they are doing things nobody has done before? If so, when will they deliver something that actually works? With 4.0? With 5.0? At what point would you stop saying "there trying to" and start saying "they can't"? 2018? 2019? 2020? How much time are you willing to give Chris to put out a decent enough build to go from alpha to beta? Despite his promises made when starting this project.
Other than CIG collapsing and filing for bankruptcy, something that obviously would proof Derek right, what would it take for you to admit Derek was right? Please tell me, I'm really curious.
I'm just going to watch. :allears:
Post by: Serendipity on August 06, 2017, 01:58:37 AM
Derek was wrong about LoD's release date. By 5 years and counting. It doesn't make him a scumbag liar. I'm sure I've covered this before.
I don't care about 'delays' to estimated release dates. The money isn't running out anytime soon or they would have released more by now in a panic.
Looking forward to reading his Gamescom predictions. Should be very interesting.
Post by: helimoth on August 06, 2017, 02:44:15 AM
Derek was wrong about LoD's release date. By 5 years and counting. It doesn't make him a scumbag liar. I'm sure I've covered this before.
Derek isn't using $150m+ of backer money, pledged under a specific set of deadlines that were set to be met to deliver a specific product - so Derek can do whatever he wants with his own private project. CIG is in a whole different world to that and I'm surprised that you appear to be naive of that fact (either that or you're being deliberately obtuse).
Post by: Motto on August 06, 2017, 02:45:29 AM
However, my dear Serendipity, you didn't aswer my question. And that was a honest one from me, I really am curious.
Let's assume that Chris did start with this project with all good and proper intentions. I see no reason to think otherwise. Now, after some time into the development, Derek started claiming that the game - as pitched - can't be made. He also has stated that for some time now, Chris knows this too, but he has no option but to continue his operation and only can do so by lying to the backers and keep on asking them for money. And an important prediction is that 3.0 is nowhere near a stable release and it won't be for quite some time.
Now, my question remains: at what point are you willing to say that Derek was right about those things? No beating around the bush, just plain and simple. I think Derek was right when....
Post by: nightfire on August 06, 2017, 03:13:32 AM
The money isn't running out anytime soon or they would have released more by now in a panic.Since you keep bringing up observations and conclusions which are completely unrelated to Star Citizen (such as pointing to LoD’s delays/shortcomings/problems when discussing Star Citizen’s delays/shortcomings/problems) – actually deflection has to be one of your most used (and most obvious) rhetorics in this forum – I’ll make an exception for once and will do this too.
Youtube hobby machinist channel „AvE“, best known for his foul language and zero BS tolerance, has exactly the right shirt for you in store! :dance:
(https://vangogh.teespring.com/v3/image/EEaRLhrXMNw4FdANKa17tJvZ9VU/480/560.jpg)
Post by: dsmart on August 06, 2017, 05:46:41 AM
Derek was wrong about LoD's release date. By 5 years and counting. It doesn't make him a scumbag liar. I'm sure I've covered this before.
Just going to quote this for the sheer stupidity within.
Somehow comparing a self-funded indie project, which is no different from any other project by other devs, publishers etc which have their own funding, budget, release dates, delays etc - NONE of which they are accountable to ANYONE for, is somehow the same as Star Citizen whereby Chris Roberts consistently LIES to backers who have given him $155M and to whom he is 100% ACCOUNTABLE after FAILING to release even 15% of a game in 6 years.
Yes, it hurts, I know, but those are 100% FACTS. No obfuscation or deflection is going to change that.
Post by: dsmart on August 06, 2017, 06:04:24 AM
(http://i.imgur.com/sp2KqjY.gif)
Post by: helimoth on August 06, 2017, 06:14:39 AM
Star Citizen 3.0. The journey.
(http://i.imgur.com/sp2KqjY.gif)
damn i thought it was a race and was cheering on purple :(
in fairness though there's probably more of a game in that chart than what's currently in SC
Post by: Serendipity on August 06, 2017, 06:20:58 AM
How the game's are funded is irrelevant. Who's making the games is irrelevant. What kind of games they are is irrelevant.
The point is this, Derek thought he'd be finishing his game in 2012 and gave an interview where he said it would be releasing at the end of 2011 or q1 2012. That didn't happen. Chris said they were attempting to get 3.0 to us by Dec of last year. That didn't happen.
Neither of these 2 game developers are evil, lying scumbags because their games have suffered delays.
Is that simple enough now?
Post by: helimoth on August 06, 2017, 06:33:29 AM
How the game's are funded is irrelevant. Who's making the games is irrelevant. What kind of games they are is irrelevant.
That's where you're wrong kiddo. Analogies are my preferred way to explain a point so I'm gonna use an analogy.
Person A: Offers to build a bridge and asks for people for funding to build it - in return they get to use the bridge. Over time the bridge becomes ever-more complex and is still unrecognizable as a bridge years into the project.
Person B: Has a bit of private land and set themselves a personal target to build a bridge on their own land.
Post by: N0mad on August 06, 2017, 06:49:58 AM
I'm not comparing development of LoD and SC.Before going on to compare the development of the 2 games.
Please can we stop with this nonsense. IF Derek's game stops development tomorrow then he's accountable only to himself - nobody else is affected. IF Star Citizen stops development tomorrow then thousands of people will lose money.
Please stop trying to compare the 2 games - we know you're only doing it to try and wind up Derek.
Post by: Motto on August 06, 2017, 06:58:02 AM
Is that simple enough now?
Yes, that is simple enough. Derek said he would be done 3 years ago. Chris said he would be done 3 years ago. They both weren't done 3 years ago. That doesn't mean they are evil scumbags. You are absolutely right in that comparison.
I killed a guy trying to rob me. Hitler also killed people. Therefore, Hitler and I are both criminals. That's the kind of simple you're arguing? Dear god, you're stupid :doh:
Let's try this again, shall we?
Now, I'm going to make a game. I say to everyone who wants to buy it, that they have to wait until I'm done building it. I think that'll take 3 years. After 3 years, the game is not there yet, so nobody can buy it. No harm done. Does that make me an evil scumbag? No.
Now, I'm going to make a game. I say to everyone that they can buy it right now, but that they have to wait until I'm done building it. I think that'll take 3 years. After 3 years, the game is not there yet. Not even close. In the meantime I accepted the money from everybody who wanted to buy the not-yet-build game. Now, another 3 years later, the game still is not here yet. Not even close. In the meantime I still accepted the money from everybody who wanted to buy the not-yet-build game. Not only that, in the past 6 years I have added all kind of things people could buy for the game that I still haven't delivered. I now am at the point where I know I can't deliver on my promises, yet I keep on going asking for money because failure will most likely send me to jail for fraud. Does that make me an evil scumbag? Hell yeah!
BTW, that's the second time you didn't answer my question. Please complete the following sentence at the dots:
I, Serendipity, will say that Derek was right when...............
Is that simple enough now?
Post by: nightfire on August 06, 2017, 06:58:21 AM
Before going on to compare the development of the 2 games.Yes, it’s awful.
Please can we stop with this nonsense. IF Derek's game stops development tomorrow then he's accountable only to himself - nobody else is affected. IF Star Citizen stops development tomorrow then thousands of people will lose money.
Please stop trying to compare the 2 games - we know you're only doing it to try and wind up Derek.
90% of the argument goes like, „Chris’ shoelaces are open“ – „No, one of them still holds together a bit. But Derek’s fly is open.“
Post by: dsmart on August 06, 2017, 07:42:00 AM
How the game's are funded is irrelevant. Who's making the games is irrelevant. What kind of games they are is irrelevant.
That's where you're wrong kiddo. Analogies are my preferred way to explain a point so I'm gonna use an analogy.
Person A: Offers to build a bridge and asks for people for funding to build it - in return they get to use the bridge. Over time the bridge becomes ever-more complex and is still unrecognizable as a bridge years into the project.
Person B: Has a bit of private land and set themselves a personal target to build a bridge on their own land.
Good luck ol' chap. He's never going to accept it. In fact, I believe he does, but when you pick a hill to die on, you get to die on it. And furthermore.
I have a better one.
Person A: Takes money from a bank to build a playground on his property. Guess who he is accountable to when the playground isn't built.
Person B: Takes money from his bank account to build a playground on his property. It's delay. Guess who he is accountable to when the playground isn't built.
Serendipity you said:I'm not comparing development of LoD and SC.Before going on to compare the development of the 2 games.
Please can we stop with this nonsense. IF Derek's game stops development tomorrow then he's accountable only to himself - nobody else is affected. IF Star Citizen stops development tomorrow then thousands of people will lose money.
Please stop trying to compare the 2 games - we know you're only doing it to try and wind up Derek.
He's only winding himself up because the only way I'd be wound up, is if there was any relevance or truth to that stupid argument.
Before going on to compare the development of the 2 games.Yes, it’s awful.
Please can we stop with this nonsense. IF Derek's game stops development tomorrow then he's accountable only to himself - nobody else is affected. IF Star Citizen stops development tomorrow then thousands of people will lose money.
Please stop trying to compare the 2 games - we know you're only doing it to try and wind up Derek.
90% of the argument goes like, „Chris’ shoelaces are open“ – „No, one of them still holds together a bit. But Derek’s fly is open.“
:lol: :lol:
:five: :five: :five:
Post by: Motto on August 06, 2017, 08:03:58 AM
Not Soon. CR doesn't want to set a bad precedent by finishing something.
Even his fans are taking the piss :dance:
Post by: dsmart on August 06, 2017, 08:18:05 AM
On Reddit someone asked about something when it would be finished. One of the replies:
Not Soon. CR doesn't want to set a bad precedent by finishing something.
Even his fans are taking the piss :dance:
OMG!! :lol: :lol:
Post by: nightfire on August 06, 2017, 08:39:06 AM
On Reddit someone asked about something when it would be finished. One of the replies:
Not Soon. CR doesn't want to set a bad precedent by finishing something.
Think about it… a year ago, this level of sarcasm would have led to one consensus only: the author must be DS hiding behind yet another alias.
It’s amazing how far we’ve come since 2016.
Post by: Motto on August 06, 2017, 09:26:28 AM
Oh wauw, the animated "progress" gif just got it's own topic on Reddit (https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/comments/6ryxxx/detailed_gif_of_cigs_30_progress_over_time/). That'll get some nice comments to read :dance:
Post by: dsmart on August 07, 2017, 07:33:53 AM
So Dennis Crow (https://www.linkedin.com/in/dcrow/) who used to work for TT Fusion (where Erin Roberts used to work), has joined the LA studio as a snr producer. His last credits at TT Fusion was as online producer for Lego Star Wars (https://www.igdb.com/games/lego-star-wars-the-force-awakens/credits).
He is a snr producer who doesn't do anything with game design or things like that. He just manages the direction of certain aspects of the development in terms of schedules, teams etc.
The question backers should be asking is why they need another producer in LA.
According to LinkedIn, he left Rockstar back in 2015 to found his own company, AWOL Game (http://www.awolgame.com), which is now defunct. That doesn't seem to have worked out so well, so he joined CIG to go make Star Citizen. I don't think it's fair to knock the guy, a paycheck for a few months, is still a pay check.
(http://i.imgur.com/qGWgDop.png) (https://www.igdb.com/people/dennis-crow/gameography)
This normally wouldn't be important, except for the fact that backers seem to think this is somehow a big deal (https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/comments/6s0z4m/dennis_crow_joins_the_team_as_senior_producer/).
Post by: Motto on August 07, 2017, 07:56:19 AM
However, in that Reddit now discussions start about the financial state of CIG. There is some nervousness starting amongst the Shitizens. About time, one would say. Derek has been on it for quite some time now...
Post by: dsmart on August 07, 2017, 08:17:17 AM
Just another step in converting CIG to CIM...
However, in that Reddit now discussions start about the financial state of CIG. There is some nervousness starting amongst the Shitizens. About time, one would say. Derek has been on it for quite some time now...
Yeah, that financial issue has been creeping up in every discussion of late, and it's not going to go away any time soon. Even the most hardcore supporter has GOT to realize that with so much work left to do, and the diminished capacity to raise money, has to be a cause for concern. They simply can't be raising the amounts they were previously raising back when it appeared as if they stood a chance of actually delivering on what was promised. And I don't care how 3.0 is received, I have no reason to believe that it's going to do anything with funding because they can't sell $45 and $60 game packages in sufficient quantity to keep funding going. So they're going to keep selling ships and JPEGs right to the very end.
Post by: Motto on August 07, 2017, 08:24:56 AM
Post by: dsmart on August 07, 2017, 09:19:25 AM
https://robertsspaceindustries.com/referral-contest
Meanwhile, you can buy referrals on the Black market for $10 each. So for $30K, you can get a free GamesCom ticket :vince:
Post by: Motto on August 07, 2017, 09:32:49 AM
Post by: dsmart on August 07, 2017, 10:33:38 AM
Top 5 generated 20k referrals @ € 45 makes 900k. And it didn't cost CIG one dime...
I don't believe the referral needs to buy a game package though.
Post by: Motto on August 07, 2017, 10:38:34 AM
Whenever a Recruit becomes an actual Star Citizen player by buying a Game Package (with minimum value of $40 USD), you'll earn 1 Recruitment Point (RP).
Post by: dsmart on August 07, 2017, 10:41:51 AM
Post by: Knight Solaire on August 08, 2017, 10:48:24 AM
Here's a question for Derek: Most of the concern about the project in here has been about money and whether CIG can maintain the pace of funding for their large staff and its monthly burn rate. Aside from that, I've read interviews with lead designers on other AAA projects and most of them have said that keeping any big project to a 3-4 year cycle is key. Going much past that it becomes difficult to keep pushing the team to do great work. People lose focus, get burned out and turnover becomes more and more of an issue.
Do you agree with this and do you think the extended time in development on SC and all the pressures associated with that are impacting them?
Post by: dsmart on August 08, 2017, 11:11:08 AM
Hey, everyone. I've been a lurker in here for some time and have enjoyed the discussion.
Here's a question for Derek: Most of the concern about the project in here has been about money and whether CIG can maintain the pace of funding for their large staff and its monthly burn rate. Aside from that, I've read interviews with lead designers on other AAA projects and most of them have said that keeping any big project to a 3-4 year cycle is key. Going much past that it becomes difficult to keep pushing the team to do great work. People lose focus, get burned out and turnover becomes more and more of an issue.
Do you agree with this and do you think the extended time in development on SC and all the pressures associated with that are impacting them?
Hey man, welcome to the place where you can't get down voted or yelled at. :sandance:
Yeah, I agree with that completely. Not only because there is anecdotal evidence to support the notion, but also because burnout is a real threat to any project, whether or not it is a gaming one.
Even Chris himself posited about this back on Oct 19, 2012 (https://web.archive.org/web/20170320041806/http://themittani.com/features/exclusive-interview-star-citizens-chris-roberts)
Quote
You have stated that you expect to have an Alpha up and going in about 12 months, with a beta roughly 10 months after that and then launch. For a game of this size and scope, do you think you can really be done in the next two years?
Really it is all about constant iteration from launch. The whole idea is to be constantly updating. It isn’t like the old days where you had to have everything and the kitchen sink in at launch because you weren’t going to come back to it for awhile. We’re already one year in - another two years puts us at 3 total which is ideal. Any more and things would begin to get stale.
However, running out of money, and burnout, are two different things entirely. Even if backers continued to pour money into this train wreck, the fact that top notch people keep leaving, has a lot to do with seeking out better opportunities, burn out, as well as not want to be part of what is now highly regarded as an on-going scam against gamers.
Post by: Knight Solaire on August 08, 2017, 11:37:52 AM
Even Chris himself posited about this back on Oct 19, 2012 (https://web.archive.org/web/20170320041806/http://themittani.com/features/exclusive-interview-star-citizens-chris-roberts)
I think anyone thinking of investing in SC should be required to read this interview and then ask themselves if there is anything about it that has come true. Clearly CRoberts was just talking out his ass the whole time and had no real plan to do any of it. And it set the stage for all the BS that has come about since then.
Post by: dsmart on August 08, 2017, 12:20:43 PM
Even Chris himself posited about this back on Oct 19, 2012 (https://web.archive.org/web/20170320041806/http://themittani.com/features/exclusive-interview-star-citizens-chris-roberts)
I think anyone thinking of investing in SC should be required to read this interview and then ask themselves if there is anything about it that has come true. Clearly CRoberts was just talking out his ass the whole time and had no real plan to do any of it. And it set the stage for all the BS that has come about since then.
See, here's the thing. They've all read these statements over the years. And even though we bring them up time and time again, the True Believers tend to just ignore them. Which is why we just lol at those guys now, when they're feigning outrage that they've been scammed.
Just wait, the worst is yet to come. And they're completely unprepared.
Post by: Motto on August 08, 2017, 01:11:29 PM
Clearly CRoberts was just talking out his ass the whole time and had no real plan to do any of it.Honestly, I doubt that. I do think that Chris actually was planning on building the game he envisioned. The positive response most likely overwhelmed him and the sheer volume of money being given made him think it was doable too. If you just throw enough money at something, it always succeeds, right? And from there on, it went wrong. Simply because Chris isn't the man to do this. He is utterly incapable. If he had had a second in command that actually would have been able (and allowed) to bring him back to earth constantly, it might have worked. But rather, he chose his wife to give all that money to.
Now, at some point Chris realised he was fucked. Can't stop due to legal ramifications, so need to continue in hope of finishing something and not violating any Kickstarter rules or consumer laws. And that's where it's going wrong now.
Post by: dsmart on August 08, 2017, 01:29:05 PM
Clearly CRoberts was just talking out his ass the whole time and had no real plan to do any of it.Honestly, I doubt that. I do think that Chris actually was planning on building the game he envisioned. The positive response most likely overwhelmed him and the sheer volume of money being given made him think it was doable too. If you just throw enough money at something, it always succeeds, right? And from there on, it went wrong. Simply because Chris isn't the man to do this. He is utterly incapable. If he had had a second in command that actually would have been able (and allowed) to bring him back to earth constantly, it might have worked. But rather, he chose his wife to give all that money to.
Now, at some point Chris realised he was fucked. Can't stop due to legal ramifications, so need to continue in hope of finishing something and not violating any Kickstarter rules or consumer laws. And that's where it's going wrong now.
Yeah. Problem is that he's dug himself into a very deep hole because he simply cannot deliver the game promised. There's no solving that problem.
Post by: StanTheMan on August 08, 2017, 01:46:22 PM
Clearly CRoberts was just talking out his ass the whole time and had no real plan to do any of it.Honestly, I doubt that. I do think that Chris actually was planning on building the game he envisioned. The positive response most likely overwhelmed him and the sheer volume of money being given made him think it was doable too. If you just throw enough money at something, it always succeeds, right? And from there on, it went wrong. Simply because Chris isn't the man to do this. He is utterly incapable. If he had had a second in command that actually would have been able (and allowed) to bring him back to earth constantly, it might have worked. But rather, he chose his wife to give all that money to.
Now, at some point Chris realised he was fucked. Can't stop due to legal ramifications, so need to continue in hope of finishing something and not violating any Kickstarter rules or consumer laws. And that's where it's going wrong now.
Even if this was the case, he could have built the kickstarter ++ then used the rest of the cash to pretty much start again and build the better bigger game.
Of the top of my head, I would have thought you could have effectively done away almost entirely with SC 1.0 and developed SC 2.0, selling the whole thing as .. well SC 1.0 was a proof of concept and 2.0 is the real deal.
I dont think he cares too much for the rules. He has had to be forced to do refunds and he thought it was wise to end up in court with Kevin C.
Post by: Knight Solaire on August 08, 2017, 01:55:59 PM
Clearly CRoberts was just talking out his ass the whole time and had no real plan to do any of it.Honestly, I doubt that. I do think that Chris actually was planning on building the game he envisioned. The positive response most likely overwhelmed him and the sheer volume of money being given made him think it was doable too. If you just throw enough money at something, it always succeeds, right? And from there on, it went wrong. Simply because Chris isn't the man to do this. He is utterly incapable. If he had had a second in command that actually would have been able (and allowed) to bring him back to earth constantly, it might have worked. But rather, he chose his wife to give all that money to.
Now, at some point Chris realised he was fucked. Can't stop due to legal ramifications, so need to continue in hope of finishing something and not violating any Kickstarter rules or consumer laws. And that's where it's going wrong now.
I mistyped there. What I meant to say is he had no real plan on HOW to do any of it. I agree that he had the desire to make a great game at this early stage. He just has a terrible habit of talking about concepts from his mind (things he think would be cool) as if they are already in the game or on the drawing board when in reality he has no idea how or if they would work. This is something he's done repeatedly in interviews and TftC videos.
Post by: dsmart on August 08, 2017, 01:59:58 PM
Even if this was the case, he could have built the kickstarter ++ then used the rest of the cash to pretty much start again and build the better bigger game.
Right. But the problem with that is once released, there is no guarantee that the game would have been received well. Then they would have received $6M and have an uphill battle convincing backers that they had delivered the BDSSE, and needed to raise more for a sequel of sorts.
So once they figured out that making lofty promises based on dreams will continue to secure funding, there was no longer the incentive to take the risk and ship anything which wouldn't be received well enough to keep funding going.
Look at this this way. If you take away the PU, leaving only the other current components, then add a hatched together mission based SQ42 based on those components, do you see a $156M game?
That's the conundrum. And like all scams, it's brilliant if you ask me. Especially when you consider the fact that they figured out that they had tapped into a number of backers who would continue along for the ride. Normally those are the guys who buy DLC for games. In this regard, they got them to pre-purchase DLC for a game that doesn't yet exist, and by all accounts, probably never will.
Post by: Spunky Munkee on August 08, 2017, 11:50:02 PM
https://twitter.com/DennisACrow/status/894270847560499200 (https://twitter.com/DennisACrow/status/894270847560499200)
So Dennis Crow (https://www.linkedin.com/in/dcrow/) who used to work for TT Fusion (where Erin Roberts used to work), has joined the LA studio as a snr producer. His last credits at TT Fusion was as online producer for Lego Star Wars (https://www.igdb.com/games/lego-star-wars-the-force-awakens/credits).
He is a snr producer who doesn't do anything with game design or things like that. He just manages the direction of certain aspects of the development in terms of schedules, teams etc.
The question backers should be asking is why they need another producer in LA.
According to LinkedIn, he left Rockstar back in 2015 to found his own company, AWOL Game (http://www.awolgame.com), which is now defunct. That doesn't seem to have worked out so well, so he joined CIG to go make Star Citizen. I don't think it's fair to knock the guy, a paycheck for a few months, is still a pay check.
(http://i.imgur.com/qGWgDop.png) (https://www.igdb.com/people/dennis-crow/gameography)
This normally wouldn't be important, except for the fact that backers seem to think this is somehow a big deal (https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/comments/6s0z4m/dennis_crow_joins_the_team_as_senior_producer/).
Since Backers seem to believe that things are just fine, it's simply a slight delay for polishing as Croberts always claims then why do they "crow" about Croberts hiring this new Producer to take control?
If there is nothing really wrong, couldn't we simply hire the janitor, or a washed up highly questionable actress to do the job if it is all the same?
Post by: Knight Solaire on August 09, 2017, 04:47:41 AM
But, hey, at least the backers got to see a nice pic of what their money’s been spent on ::cough cough:: $10,000 door ::cough cough:: :doh:
Post by: helimoth on August 09, 2017, 04:51:13 AM
But, hey, at least the backers got to see a nice pic of what their money’s been spent on ::cough cough:: $10,000 door ::cough cough:: :doh:
I bet we're gonna discover the door was the tip of the iceberg when all the details come to light about how that money has been spent.
Post by: Serendipity on August 09, 2017, 05:15:12 AM
Dear god, you're stupid :doh:is name calling and I've been banned for less. Stop being mean you meanie. Also, I'm not stupid.
BTW, that's the second time you didn't answer my question. Please complete the following sentence at the dots:
I, Serendipity, will say that Derek was right when...............
Is that simple enough now?
Derek has been right before now about some little, inconsequential things. I will admit he's right about the big predictions, (meaning his constant bleating about being out of money and that the game can't be made), when CIG collapse and disappear without releasing 2 games that resemble what they've laid out they're making.
Now we could start discussing how he used 'current tech' 'as pitched' and 'unless they have money, time and expertise' as get out clauses but that's not really worth it. He'll claim he was right whatever happens.
They release a great pair of games that are critically acclaimed and sell well, it's not technology from 2015 and they managed to scrape together the tech to make it work but it's all smoke and mirrors...
They release a pair of games without some minor feature and it's not 'as pitched'.
The only way I'll admit Derek was right, and I'm talking about the big predictions, not the name of a secret ship or some staff leaving or whatever, is when CIG collapse through financial mismanagement or the games they make are an anorexic shadow of what has been described. Until then, he's being made to look more and more wrong every day they don't collapse. Those damn analytics! If only they weren't open to being skewed by hyperbole...
I'm really looking forward to reading his Gamescom predictions. Hopefully he doesn't release them too early and allow CIG to change it all to spite him again.
Post by: Serendipity on August 09, 2017, 05:18:40 AM
This guy isn’t taking control of anything. If he hadn’t tweeted about it no one would ever have known he worked there.
But, hey, at least the backers got to see a nice pic of what their money’s been spent on ::cough cough:: $10,000 door ::cough cough:: :doh:
Yes. It definitely cost 10 THOUSAND dollars. No seriously. It did. A door. Yeah, it opens automatically you see. Some MDF that's been painted. Yeah. Costs a fortune that stuff. Definitely 10 GRAND.
Post by: Serendipity on August 09, 2017, 05:22:34 AM
Post by: Motto on August 09, 2017, 06:54:35 AM
I will admit he's right about the big predictions, (meaning his constant bleating about being out of money and that the game can't be made), when CIG collapse and disappear without releasing 2 games that resemble what they've laid out they're making.
Ah, so when CIG finally has collapsed, you will admit that Derek was right. I think that when CIG collapses, you'll have to come up with some pretty good arguments to still keep on insisting that Dereks was wrong anyhow.
However, the thing is, Derek has been / is predicting several things that are a clear indication that something was / is wrong, predicting things that indicate that it's getting worse and worse and predicting that it all will accumulate and accumulate until CIG collapses. So, you're willing to admit that he was right when that actually happens. That also means that Derek was right about everything before that moment, at least for the big predictions. Basically, all the things that let up to that final event of CIG collapsing. But to those things you won't admit he was right. And you're wondering why I think you're stupid? Man, you're just proving my point here. Again.
Post by: Knight Solaire on August 09, 2017, 06:57:35 AM
I bet the coffee machine, they couldn't possibly have rented (http://www.nationwidecoffee.co.uk), cost them 20k as well huh?
Damn, dude, I must have struck a nerve there, huh? Whatever the door cost, or the fancy desks and tables and mo-cap stages, etc., etc. Bottom line is that CIG loves touting their fancy offices, but yet still can't deliver a game after 5 years. Why is this? If I was a backer (I'm not, btw) I would be sickened by the self enrichment and conceit coming from a company that hasn't delivered on any of the promises made to amass people's money in the first place.
Post by: Serendipity on August 09, 2017, 07:03:58 AM
I will admit he's right about the big predictions, (meaning his constant bleating about being out of money and that the game can't be made), when CIG collapse and disappear without releasing 2 games that resemble what they've laid out they're making.
Ah, so when CIG finally has collapsed, you will admit that Derek was right. I think that when CIG collapses, you'll have to come up with some pretty good arguments to still keep on insisting that Dereks was wrong anyhow.
However, the thing is, Derek has been / is predicting several things that are a clear indication that something was / is wrong, predicting things that indicate that it's getting worse and worse and predicting that it all will accumulate and accumulate until CIG collapses. So, you're willing to admit that he was right when that actually happens. That also means that Derek was right about everything before that moment, at least for the big predictions. Basically, all the things that let up to that final event of CIG collapsing. But to those things you won't admit he was right. And you're wondering why I think you're stupid? Man, you're just proving my point here. Again.
Oh you're being mean to me again. I might cry. It's still a very big if. CIG show no signs of collapse. In fact the funding tracker shows an increase in funding this calendar year compared to the same period last year. So yes, I'll admit Derek was right when he is proved right, not before. That's how these things work. I don't assume he's right about the big guesses just because he's been right about a few little things. That's called faith.
You call me stupid and then accept Derek's word as gospel truth. Show me proof they won't finish the games. Show me evidence of financial distress. (No, a loan nor cash sales are either.)
I bet the coffee machine, they couldn't possibly have rented (http://www.nationwidecoffee.co.uk), cost them 20k as well huh?
Damn, dude, I must have struck a nerve there, huh? Whatever the door cost, or the fancy desks and tables and mo-cap stages, etc., etc. Bottom line is that CIG loves touting their fancy offices, but yet still can't deliver a game after 5 years. Why is this? If I was a backer (I'm not, btw) I would be sickened by the self enrichment and conceit coming from a company that hasn't delivered on any of the promises made to amass people's money in the first place.
Paying your self a wage is ok. The game is being made. Most are happy to wait for it. Some aren't. Fair enough. Spending money accrued on staff isn't a bad thing. Happy, motivated staff work better. Fact.
Edit: oh yeah, the mocap studio was a stretch goal so kind of expected.
Post by: Motto on August 09, 2017, 07:09:18 AM
Post by: Serendipity on August 09, 2017, 07:10:02 AM
Post by: Motto on August 09, 2017, 07:13:19 AM
Post by: Serendipity on August 09, 2017, 07:14:07 AM
Cost of the doors are actually estimated about 20K. (http://gameranx.com/updates/id/73286/article/the-building-controversy-of-star-citizen/) Looks fancy though, only for the money of 500 pledgers at the most bottom level
Estimated by someone posting on SA? Well now, there's a reliable and trustworthy source if ever I heard one... I especially liked the 'here's an estimate I got then I doubled it and added 4 grand' part.
Insert slow clap gif here.
Post by: Serendipity on August 09, 2017, 07:15:52 AM
Yeah, I know. But when CIG collapses, it'll prove everything right. You know, the things other people can see as well by looking at the facts. Not just by sheeping after Derek. Basically, the not so stupid people.
Again with the 'when'. You just can't possibly entertain the chance of them getting a couple of decent games out. 'Closed minded' is being nice.
If CIG collapse then Derek will be proven right.
See, much better.
Post by: Knight Solaire on August 09, 2017, 07:16:31 AM
Although, to be fair, it's difficult knowing when Derek is being serious anyway what with flawed analytics, missing information, hyperbole, lies, fake sources trolling or being trolled...which stuff do I even believe anymore? It's hard keeping up.
All of these accusations could be aimed at CRoberts as well. Lying, misinformation, deliberately unrealistic timetables, etc. Why do you omit that?
The difference is, CRoberts has an obvious motivation (bringing in more $ that he claims he doesn't need), which makes his activities in this regard much more insidious than anything Derek has done.
Post by: Serendipity on August 09, 2017, 07:19:01 AM
Although, to be fair, it's difficult knowing when Derek is being serious anyway what with flawed analytics, missing information, hyperbole, lies, fake sources trolling or being trolled...which stuff do I even believe anymore? It's hard keeping up.
All of these accusations could be aimed at CRoberts as well. Lying, misinformation, deliberately unrealistic timetables, etc. Why do you omit that?
The difference is, CRoberts has an obvious motivation (bringing in more $ that he claims he doesn't need), which makes his activities in this regard much more insidious than anything Derek has done.
We've been through this. When a developer says they hope to do X or y, (release 3.0 in December or release LoD in 2012), and it doesn't happen, it doesn't mean they lied. Chris believes he can do what he's said he can do. 3.0 release will provide a nice chunk of evidence that he can.
Derek has guaranteed something that turned out to just be 'hyperbole'. Chris hasn't guaranteed anything.
Post by: Knight Solaire on August 09, 2017, 07:27:17 AM
Although, to be fair, it's difficult knowing when Derek is being serious anyway what with flawed analytics, missing information, hyperbole, lies, fake sources trolling or being trolled...which stuff do I even believe anymore? It's hard keeping up.
All of these accusations could be aimed at CRoberts as well. Lying, misinformation, deliberately unrealistic timetables, etc. Why do you omit that?
The difference is, CRoberts has an obvious motivation (bringing in more $ that he claims he doesn't need), which makes his activities in this regard much more insidious than anything Derek has done.
We've been through this. When a developer says they hope to do X or y, (release 3.0 in December or release LoD in 2012), and it doesn't happen, it doesn't mean they lied. Chris believes he can do what he's said he can do. 3.0 release will provide a nice chunk of evidence that he can.
Derek has guaranteed something that turned out to just be 'hyperbole'. Chris hasn't guaranteed anything.
Wow.. Just, Wow. You're level of gullibility and delusion knows no bounds.
There's a thing in the world called Critical Thinking. It involves analyzing evidence and patterns to determine the truth. There is no proof positive of it, but anyone that has been paying attention over the last several years would have to believe that Chris has lied and wildly exaggerated over the years to generate hype and income for CIG. Unless, of course, like you, they just don't want to see it.
Post by: Motto on August 09, 2017, 07:29:14 AM
You just can't possibly entertain the chance of them getting a couple of decent games out.
Yes, I can. That chance is zero. It will not happen. Ever. The change that I live long enough to actually witness the whole universe implode again even is higher.
Post by: Serendipity on August 09, 2017, 07:30:58 AM
Quote
Wow.. Just, Wow. You're level of gullibility and delusion knows no bounds.
There's a thing in the world called Critical Thinking. It involves analyzing evidence and patterns to determine the truth. There is no proof positive of it, but anyone that has been paying attention over the last several years would have to believe that Chris has lied and wildly exaggerated over the years to generate hype and income for CIG. Unless, of course, like you, they just don't want to see it.
Just because I came to a different conclusion than you doesn't mean I haven't analysed what's come out of CIG for the last 3 and a half years I've been following the project.
Your arrogance and condescension knows no bounds.
Post by: Serendipity on August 09, 2017, 07:33:18 AM
You just can't possibly entertain the chance of them getting a couple of decent games out.
Yes, I can. That chance is zero. It will not happen. Ever. The change that I live long enough to actually witness the whole universe implode again even is higher.
Not true. Nothing has zero percent chance of occuring and you'd have to change a lot to see 'the universe implode again', (whatever that means), epecially not when we're talking about a game we're seeing come together, albeit slowly, right in front of our eyes.
Does it feel bad that funding is up this year or does that mean imminent collapse now too?
Edit: Oh wait a minute...was that hyperbole? That's a good excuse for posting drivel I hear.
Post by: Serendipity on August 09, 2017, 07:47:30 AM
Post by: Motto on August 09, 2017, 09:48:59 AM
And that funding chart is complete bogus. If you think that they actually generate that kind of money month after month after month after month for several years in a row now, with almost nothing to show for, you must be stupid. Oh wait, we already knew that.
Post by: dsmart on August 09, 2017, 10:28:52 AM
Derek has been right before now about some little, inconsequential things. I will admit he's right about the big predictions, (meaning his constant bleating about being out of money and that the game can't be made), when CIG collapse and disappear without releasing 2 games that resemble what they've laid out they're making.
Now we could start discussing how he used 'current tech' 'as pitched' and 'unless they have money, time and expertise' as get out clauses but that's not really worth it. He'll claim he was right whatever happens.
They release a great pair of games that are critically acclaimed and sell well, it's not technology from 2015 and they managed to scrape together the tech to make it work but it's all smoke and mirrors...
They release a pair of games without some minor feature and it's not 'as pitched'.
The only way I'll admit Derek was right, and I'm talking about the big predictions, not the name of a secret ship or some staff leaving or whatever, is when CIG collapse through financial mismanagement or the games they make are an anorexic shadow of what has been described. Until then, he's being made to look more and more wrong every day they don't collapse. Those damn analytics! If only they weren't open to being skewed by hyperbole...
I'm really looking forward to reading his Gamescom predictions. Hopefully he doesn't release them too early and allow CIG to change it all to spite him again.
You know, this is why I really need to write a specific article about all the things I've been right or wrong about, because this argument is getting so old. And that's only because you guys are in complete denial. I have been right about a LOT of very important things. Just off the top of my head:
- they don't have the tech to build the game // they switched to LY
- they would need $150M+ to build the game he pitched // we're at $156M, and no game. Plus that makes it $91M over budget already
- they have to give refunds, so just ignore the ToS nonsense // see the StreetRoller debacle that got the ball rolling
- having missed the 18 month delay period, they will change the ToS to restrict backer rights // I saw this one coming a mile away (http://dereksmart.com/forums/topic/star-citizen-tos/) when noone else did.
- SQ42 is coming out in
- they have to give a dev schedule to appease backers // like the refund issue, this one cost me attorney fees. Ortwin blew me off. they started doing dev scheduled a year later
- CitizenCon 2016 was a "con" and The Worm wasn't real // this one was hilarious because all the time we were on Discord during the show, and I was saying it, even some Goons didn't believe me. Then later CIG copped to it being R&D. And they did a Road To CitizenCon video amid backer outrage
- 3.0 was a pipedream, didn't exist, and most certainly wasn't coming out in Dec 2016 // I loved the part where Shitizens realized that the 3.0 they were pitched isn't the one that appeared in the April 2017 dev schedule
...and that's just off the top of my head.
Not to mention all the exec and nepotism related things ranging from Chris and the Veep of marketing actually being married, to Sandi lying about her creds, shooting private movies on company property, the myriad of shell corps associated with the project etc
But don't tell Shitizens this though because the first thing they will point out is ---> "you said they would collapse in 90 days, they're still here" and "you said Star Marine wasn't in 2.6" <--- and that hilarity never gets old because it's as absurd as this whole scam.
Ultimately there isn't is a shred of doubt in MY mind that the project is FUBAR and that's going to collapse sooner rather than later. The only question is when that will be, and what form it will take. At that moment in time, the ultimate "Derek Smart Was Right" mantra is going to be that, since July 2015 Chris they had overscoped the game in Nov 2014 @ $65M, I had said the game, as pitched, could never be built.
Post by: Serendipity on August 09, 2017, 10:30:15 AM
Since the Big Bang, the universe is expanding. It is likely that that expansion will come to a halt, and after that the universe will shrink again until the absolute nothing and then the cycle starts all over with a big bang. I'm working on a schedule, but their might be some delays. You know, since this is a whole new uncharted terriroty that noone ever has done before and all. However, me living long enough to actually see that implosion/explosion has a higher probabilty than Chris Roberts living up to delivering his pitched game.
And that funding chart is complete bogus. If you think that they actually generate that kind of money month after month after month after month for several years in a row now, wiht almost nothing to show for, you must be stupid. Oh wait, we already knew that.
Second time you've called me stupid. I was definitely banned for less.
Now then, let's have a look at what you've said here shall we.
First off, if you think they haven't been getting that level of funding year on year would you mind explaining to me how they're keeping 5 studios open and paying the wages of over 400 people?
Second, your theoretical physics knowledge is about 20 years out of date I'm afraid. The universal expansion is speeding up, not slowing down. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metric_expansion_of_space) This means there will not be a 'big crunch' in the future.
Even if there was to be a universal contraction back to the singularity it's certainly not an implosion. The big bang wasn't an explosion. It's a contraction and an expansion. Big difference. An explosion must be exploding into something you see, that's the 'ex' part of the word. The big bang created space itself so no, not an explosion and definitely not an implosion in reverse.
Now which of us is appearing stupid do you think? If your answer is still me then you're doing that thinking thing wrong...again.
Post by: dsmart on August 09, 2017, 10:36:29 AM
Although, to be fair, it's difficult knowing when Derek is being serious anyway what with flawed analytics, missing information, hyperbole, lies, fake sources trolling or being trolled...which stuff do I even believe anymore? It's hard keeping up.
Surprisingly, that's how that works out here in the real world where dreams come to die. Being in denial about the confirmed and on-going factual issues, doesn't change them as facts. How you choose to regard them is entirely up to you. That's why we have anti-vaxers, flat earthers, scientologists etc. You can't convince some people of things they believe in, and nothing you do, write, or say, is going to change that.
Post by: dsmart on August 09, 2017, 10:37:59 AM
We've been through this. When a developer says they hope to do X or y, (release 3.0 in December or release LoD in 2012), and it doesn't happen, it doesn't mean they lied. Chris believes he can do what he's said he can do. 3.0 release will provide a nice chunk of evidence that he can.
:vince:
Quote
Derek has guaranteed something that turned out to just be 'hyperbole'. Chris hasn't guaranteed anything.
The sad reality is that you really believe that. :laugh:
Post by: Motto on August 09, 2017, 10:45:04 AM
First off, if you think they haven't been getting that level of funding year on year would you mind explaining to me how they're keeping 5 studios open and paying the wages of over 400 people?
Now which of us is appearing stupid do you think? If your answer is still me then you're doing that thinking thing wrong...again.
Answer to Question 1: Uhm, investors that we don't now about? Bankloans? Who knows where they got the money. I think they've ran out and that's about to come out.
Answer to Question 2: I still think you are stupid and I'm not thinking wrong.
Post by: Knight Solaire on August 09, 2017, 10:45:58 AM
Although, to be fair, it's difficult knowing when Derek is being serious anyway what with flawed analytics, missing information, hyperbole, lies, fake sources trolling or being trolled...which stuff do I even believe anymore? It's hard keeping up.
Surprisingly, that's how that works out here in the real world where dreams come to die. Being in denial about the confirmed and on-going factual issues, doesn't change them as facts. How you choose to regard them is entirely up to you. That's why we have anti-vaxers, flat earthers, scientologists etc. You can't convince some people of things they believe in, and nothing you do, write, or say, is going to change that.
Funny how Scientology came to my mind as well when reading Serendipity's comments and thinking about the cult of SC.
Post by: dsmart on August 09, 2017, 10:46:22 AM
Not true. Nothing has zero percent chance of occuring
Are you serious? Don't let me throw a math book at you.
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Does it feel bad that funding is up this year or does that mean imminent collapse now too?
Here's the thing, most of us don't care. In fact, us Goons HOPE that you guys keep putting money into an open flame, this way the Harvest Of Tears event that's coming, will be even more glorious.
ps: Please show me the metrics where it says funding is up this year
Post by: Serendipity on August 09, 2017, 12:25:55 PM
First off, if you think they haven't been getting that level of funding year on year would you mind explaining to me how they're keeping 5 studios open and paying the wages of over 400 people?
Now which of us is appearing stupid do you think? If your answer is still me then you're doing that thinking thing wrong...again.
Answer to Question 1: Uhm, investors that we don't now about? Bankloans? Who knows where they got the money. I think they've ran out and that's about to come out.
Answer to Question 2: I still think you are stupid and I'm not thinking wrong.
Again with calling me stupid, still not banned. I hope your name calling has at least earned a warning by now, otherwise some might think this forum is showing favouritism.
It's fine if you think I'm stupid though, you're entitled to your opinion. I hope you have fun, repeatedly calling me names and displaying your ignorance of subjects you bring to the discussion. Universe imploding... :laugh:
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ps: Please show me the metrics where it says funding is up this year
Metrics? I went to the pledge watch page, took the total pledge amounts from 1/1/16 to 1/8/16 and 1/1/17 to 1/8/17 and did a thing called 'subtraction'.
Feel free to metric the holy hell outta that page, the one that isn't accurate but is when applied to your own narratives, yourself.
Think they're about 2 mil up on last year but 2 mil down on 2015. Ooohhhhh, suspicious and nefarious symmetry no doubt!
Post by: dsmart on August 09, 2017, 12:32:35 PM
Again with calling me stupid, still not banned. I hope your name calling has at least earned a warning by now, otherwise some might think this forum is showing favouritism.
OK I'll bite.
Please tell me how different it is someone calling you stupid or a fool, to you calling someone a liar, delusional etc.
I'll wait. :colbert:
ps: As you know, the only reason your ban was reversed, is because these same guys asked me to revert it. Or you'd be long gone - just like your first alt which got you banned for the same sort of behavior that made me ban you last week.
Metrics? I went to the pledge watch page, took the total pledge amounts from 1/1/16 to 1/8/16 and 1/1/17 to 1/8/17 and did a thing called 'subtraction'.
I am literally agape that even knowing what your statement "funding is up this year" means, you still went ahead with 8 month metrics. :yikes:
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Feel free to metric the holy hell outta that page, the one that isn't accurate but is when applied to your own narratives, yourself.
Whether it's accurate or not is not material for the purposes of comparing their CLAIMED funding amounts. Man, you're stupid.
Post by: Serendipity on August 09, 2017, 12:44:55 PM
I would have said last 12 months if I'd meant that.
Post by: dsmart on August 09, 2017, 12:47:34 PM
Sorry, calendar year. From the first day of this year. Commonly known as...this year.
Go learn what these mean, and come back: YoY, YTD
Post by: Serendipity on August 09, 2017, 12:51:50 PM
Sorry, calendar year. From the first day of this year. Commonly known as...this year.
Go learn what these mean, and come back: YoY, YTD
Assuming I'm non worldly enough to not already know is very patronising.
Post by: Motto on August 09, 2017, 12:54:52 PM
Since the Big Bang, the universe is expanding. It is likely that that expansion will come to a halt, and after that the universe will shrink again until the absolute nothing and then the cycle starts all over with a big bang. I'm working on a schedule, but their might be some delays. You know, since this is a whole new uncharted terriroty that noone ever has done before and all. However, me living long enough to actually see that implosion/explosion has a higher probabilty than Chris Roberts living up to delivering his pitched game.
Second, your theoretical physics knowledge is about 20 years out of date I'm afraid. The universal expansion is speeding up, not slowing down. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metric_expansion_of_space) This means there will not be a 'big crunch' in the future.
Even if there was to be a universal contraction back to the singularity it's certainly not an implosion. The big bang wasn't an explosion. It's a contraction and an expansion. Big difference. An explosion must be exploding into something you see, that's the 'ex' part of the word. The big bang created space itself so no, not an explosion and definitely not an implosion in reverse.
Hmmm, the Big Crunch (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Crunch) is only one theory about the fate of the universe. There are many more. How do you know that your theory isn't wrong? Because somebody said so? That's basically your whole argument for disproving everything overhere.
Now, I said explosion/implosion based on The Big Bang being an explosion so the opposite, the universe collapsing on itself, would therefore be an implosion. Now there is a possibility that I didn't use the word explosion correctly if one would look at the Big Bang scientifically. If I did, it's probably because English isn't my native language. So, before attacking me on that one, how's your Dutch?
Post by: Motto on August 09, 2017, 01:01:05 PM
Man, you're stupid.
Oh, thank you. I'm having a laugh with that one you have no idea :laugh:
I'm really questioning myself why I advised to keep on having Serendipity around. Not my finest moment in hindsight...
Why someone actually would think he is bitchslapping us around overhere, it's beyond me. Way, way beyond me.
Post by: Serendipity on August 09, 2017, 01:03:39 PM
Post by: Serendipity on August 09, 2017, 01:04:34 PM
Man, you're stupid.
Oh, thank you. I'm having a laugh with that one you have no idea :laugh:
I'm really questioning myself why I advised to keep on having Serendipity around. Not my finest moment in hindsight...
Why someone actually would think he is bitchslapping us around overhere, it's beyond me. Way, way beyond me.
We're all having fun aren't we?
Post by: Serendipity on August 09, 2017, 01:10:59 PM
At that moment in time, the ultimate "Derek Smart Was Right" mantra is going to be that, since July 2015 Chris they had overscoped the game in Nov 2014 @ $65M, I had said the game, as pitched, could never be built.
Missed this reply earlier, good read. The bit I've quoted is the important bit, the rest is just fluff and bluster, this bit here, this is exactly what I just said. At the moment in time it collapses, that is when I will say Derek Smart was right.
Edit: Happily say it at that. I'm not stupid enough to not accept when I'm proven wrong.
Post by: dsmart on August 09, 2017, 01:28:36 PM
At that moment in time, the ultimate "Derek Smart Was Right" mantra is going to be that, since July 2015 Chris they had overscoped the game in Nov 2014 @ $65M, I had said the game, as pitched, could never be built.
Missed this reply earlier, good read. The bit I've quoted is the important bit, the rest is just fluff and bluster, this bit here, this is exactly what I just said. At the moment in time it collapses, that is when I will say Derek Smart was right.
Edit: Happily say it at that. I'm not stupid enough to not accept when I'm proven wrong.
Right well nobody was asking you accept an unknown, because fact is that we won't know whether I was right or not about THAT specific issue, until either they release the game or they don't.
And FYI, if they DO (they won't) release a "game" that wasn't as originally pitched, I would still be right. So there's that. :ssh:
Oh, you didn't miss though, right?
Quote
You know, this is why I really need to write a specific article about all the things I've been right or wrong about, because this argument is getting so old. And that's only because you guys are in complete denial. I have been right about a LOT of very important things. Just off the top of my head:
- they don't have the tech to build the game // they switched to LY
- they would need $150M+ to build the game he pitched // we're at $156M, and no game. Plus that makes it $91M over budget already
- they have to give refunds, so just ignore the ToS nonsense // see the StreetRoller debacle that got the ball rolling
- having missed the 18 month delay period, they will change the ToS to restrict backer rights // I saw this one coming a mile away (http://dereksmart.com/forums/topic/star-citizen-tos/) when noone else did.
- SQ42 is coming out in2015,2016, 2017
- they have to give a dev schedule to appease backers // like the refund issue, this one cost me attorney fees. Ortwin blew me off. they started doing dev scheduled a year later
- CitizenCon 2016 was a "con" and The Worm wasn't real // this one was hilarious because all the time we were on Discord during the show, and I was saying it, even some Goons didn't believe me. Then later CIG copped to it being R&D. And they did a Road To CitizenCon video amid backer outrage
- 3.0 was a pipedream, didn't exist, and most certainly wasn't coming out in Dec 2016 // I loved the part where Shitizens realized that the 3.0 they were pitched isn't the one that appeared in the April 2017 dev schedule
...and that's just off the top of my head.
Not to mention all the exec and nepotism related things ranging from Chris and the Veep of marketing actually being married, to Sandi lying about her creds, shooting private movies on company property, the myriad of shell corps associated with the project etc
But don't tell Shitizens this though because the first thing they will point out is ---> "you said they would collapse in 90 days, they're still here" and "you said Star Marine wasn't in 2.6" <--- and that hilarity never gets old because it's as absurd as this whole scam.
Ultimately there isn't is a shred of doubt in MY mind that the project is FUBAR and that's going to collapse sooner rather than later. The only question is when that will be, and what form it will take. At that moment in time, the ultimate "Derek Smart Was Right" mantra is going to be that, since July 2015 Chris they had overscoped the game in Nov 2014 @ $65M, I had said the game, as pitched, could never be built.
Post by: Motto on August 09, 2017, 01:28:40 PM
At the moment in time it collapses, that is when I will say Derek Smart was right.
Edit: Happily say it at that. I'm not stupid enough to not accept when I'm proven wrong.
That's the spirit :dance:
But, when (yes, when, not if) CIG collapses, why doesn't that prove Derek right on all the things that have led up to that event? CIG doesn't collapse overnight, it's a proces. There are a number of things happening and signs to be seen that clearly indicate that he is right. Why do you choose not to acknowlegde that?
Example: we have no idea how their financials are because they don't share them (which BTW, Chris said he would share them). The only information is a funding tracker on their website. Why would that tracker be accurate? Because they say so? Even when it's obvious that showing dwindling numbers would be devastating to the project.
It's strange that when we have several arguments why there are a number of signals that indicate there are things financially wrong, your only counterargument is "well, on their website they say they have collected over 155m" so everything is fine.
I can imagine someone wanting to see this project work, and I even can understand someone trying to look rather positively than negatively, but how can you justify/not see all the things happening?
Post by: Serendipity on August 09, 2017, 01:33:53 PM
So, you're willing to admit that he was right when that actually happens. That also means that Derek was right about everything before that moment, at least for the big predictions. Basically, all the things that let up to that final event of CIG collapsing. But to those things you won't admit he was right. And you're wondering why I think you're stupid? Man, you're just proving my point here. Again.
See, I'm not so sure Derek ending up being right about the game being impossible to make, makes him automatically right about the, rather large, predictions of money laundering, racist hiring practices, office bullying and financial fraud. One does not begat any of the others.
Post by: Serendipity on August 09, 2017, 01:35:19 PM
At the moment in time it collapses, that is when I will say Derek Smart was right.
Edit: Happily say it at that. I'm not stupid enough to not accept when I'm proven wrong.
That's the spirit :dance:
But, when (yes, when, not if) CIG collapses, why doesn't that prove Derek right on all the things that have led up to that event? CIG doesn't collapse overnight, it's a proces. There are a number of things happening and signs to be seen that clearly indicate that he is right. Why do you choose not to acknowlegde that?
Example: we have no idea how their financials are because they don't share them (which BTW, Chris said he would share them). The only information is a funding tracker on their website. Why would that tracker be accurate? Because they say so? Even when it's obvious that showing dwindling numbers would be devastating to the project.
It's strange that when we have several arguments why there are a number of signals that indicate there are things financially wrong, your only counterargument is "well, on their website they say they have collected over 155m" so everything is fine.
I can imagine someone wanting to see this project work, and I even can understand someone trying to look rather positively than negatively, but how can you justify/not see all the things happening?
I see things differently to you. That's about all there is to it. Me and hundreds of thousands of other people, not all insane or stupid, think the same.
Post by: Motto on August 09, 2017, 01:37:54 PM
Post by: Serendipity on August 09, 2017, 01:44:10 PM
All true because CIG couldn't get subsumption working? Nah.
Post by: dsmart on August 09, 2017, 01:44:41 PM
See, I'm not so sure Derek ending up being right about the game being impossible to make, makes him automatically right about the, rather large, predictions of money laundering, racist hiring practices, office bullying and financial fraud. One does not begat any of the others.
Ah yeah, the goalpost shifting. Nobody said anything about me being right about ANY of those things. That's what rumors and hyperbole are for.
- predictions of money laundering. // nope, not a prediction nor have anything to do with CIG engaging in it. in fact, I wrote an entire blog (http://dereksmart.com/2017/03/star-citizen-money-laundromat/) about it. you should read it
- racist hiring practices. // nope, didn't come from me. that was through The Escapist sources
- office bullying. // nope, didn't come from me. that was through The Escapist sources. In fact, the only time I wrote about anything close to that, was when James Pugh and a few others quit on the spot when Sandi accused them of being leakers
- financial fraud. // nope, I've never accused them of this
Quote
How about claiming Sandi worked as an escort and starred in porn films whilst dreaming about deposing her in French, villifying staff members for various reasons and the naming of his 'moles'?
And this is related to "Derek Smart being right", how?
ps:
- I don't recall ever accusing her of being an escort
- But she has starred in tickle porn. What's the problem? She's an actress
- And I do want to depose her in French because she's a lying shit who, went on a stream and said she's fluent in French and German
- I vilify execs because they're lying scum bags engaged in an active SCAM. If they feel so bad about it, they could have sued me by now. Fact is, that's how society works. You don't see Musk, Besos or any of the execs complaining about the public calling them names, vilifying them etc.
Post by: Serendipity on August 09, 2017, 02:15:00 PM
Post by: dsmart on August 09, 2017, 03:07:46 PM
Seems I may have misremembered some of the stuff I've read over the years. I blame Reddit. Apologies.
No worries. It happens. Even to me. :laugh:
But those guys on Reddit make shit up all the time. So there's that. :argh:
Post by: dsmart on August 09, 2017, 03:44:12 PM
https://twitter.com/commando_tom/status/895384780283535360
Post by: StanTheMan on August 09, 2017, 06:10:37 PM
Ha ha, yeah, my Dutch is obviously nonexistent. Fair enough on using explosion. Love your country, both jazz festivals and stag weekends have entertained me thoroughly before now. The idea the universe is increasing its expansion isn't my theory. I think it is pretty well accepted by much better minds than mine. Feel free to use that in a quote to call me stupid again.
You will accept the expertise of physicists but when it comes to Star Citizen you think you know better than a highly experienced Game Developer.
When Chris Roberts lies to you over 3.0 releasing in 2016 you declare it a "hope".
Post by: dsmart on August 09, 2017, 06:46:51 PM
When Chris Roberts lies to you over 3.0 releasing in 2016 you declare it a "hope".
But it wasn't a promise though. :laugh:
Post by: Orgetorix on August 09, 2017, 09:42:44 PM
I see things differently to you. That's about all there is to it. Me and hundreds of thousands of other people, not all insane or stupid, think the same.
"An error does not become truth by reason of multiplied propagation, nor does truth become error because nobody sees it. Truth stands, even if there be no public support. It is self sustained.” -Mahatma Gandhi
And there are many that see differently than you. The question that you need to answer is, "Are you looking for the Truth, or are trying to build walls to shade lies that you are deeply invested in, from the Truth?"
Post by: Serendipity on August 10, 2017, 12:51:52 AM
I see things differently to you. That's about all there is to it. Me and hundreds of thousands of other people, not all insane or stupid, think the same.
"An error does not become truth by reason of multiplied propagation, nor does truth become error because nobody sees it. Truth stands, even if there be no public support. It is self sustained.” -Mahatma Gandhi
And there are many that see differently than you. The question that you need to answer is, "Are you looking for the Truth, or are trying to build walls to shade lies that you are deeply invested in, from the Truth?"
I'm not looking for much, just a video game I've pre ordered. I'm not heavily invested, I just enjoy talking about it. Games will come and I'll judge them when they do. Hopefully they'll be fun.
Ha ha, yeah, my Dutch is obviously nonexistent. Fair enough on using explosion. Love your country, both jazz festivals and stag weekends have entertained me thoroughly before now. The idea the universe is increasing its expansion isn't my theory. I think it is pretty well accepted by much better minds than mine. Feel free to use that in a quote to call me stupid again.
You will accept the expertise of physicists but when it comes to Star Citizen you think you know better than a highly experienced Game Developer.
When Chris Roberts lies to you over 3.0 releasing in 2016 you declare it a "hope".
We've been over the 'lies' thing already but just to spark your memory, because it didn't happen when he hoped it would, doesn't make him a liar.
I believe the word of physicists because of this very important standard called, the scientific method, that encourages the truth to fall from experiments. Derek may be highly experienced and may have developed games before but that doesn't mean CIG can't do what they say they can do. If nobody ever tried to innovate we'd still be driving wooden carts with horses.
Those who say a thing is impossible should get out of the way of those doing it.
3.0 release, for me at least, will show that Derek was wrong and the game envisioned can be built. It'll be a shallow version of a small part of what they want, granted, but every journey starts with a single step. It also takes a lot of steps in-between to get to the end of a worthwhile journey.
If CIG collapse before we get 3.0 and up to 4.0 then Derek was right. Only time will tell.
Post by: N0mad on August 10, 2017, 01:17:58 AM
If nobody ever tried to innovate we'd still be driving wooden carts with horses.
I think we've covered this before: You're implying that Star Citizen is being innovative but exactly what innovation is Star Citizen doing?
I will grant you that when they first started talking about planetary tech in an open universe it was pretty ahead of its time but since then they've failed to deliver anything meaningful. It's great having an idea and a dream but it's meaningless unless you can deliver. CIG has taken so long to deliver anything that other games have implemented the technology with far more success.
Post by: nightfire on August 10, 2017, 02:18:52 AM
We're all having fun aren't we?
WE certainly do. But then again, many of us are neither whales nor cultists.
How it must feel for some who is heavily invested in the game to assure himself every morning that everything will turn out fine in the end – this I don’t know :shrug:
(https://i.imgflip.com/1tv3sd.jpg)
Post by: Serendipity on August 10, 2017, 03:07:53 AM
If nobody ever tried to innovate we'd still be driving wooden carts with horses.
I think we've covered this before: You're implying that Star Citizen is being innovative but exactly what innovation is Star Citizen doing?
I will grant you that when they first started talking about planetary tech in an open universe it was pretty ahead of its time but since then they've failed to deliver anything meaningful. It's great having an idea and a dream but it's meaningless unless you can deliver. CIG has taken so long to deliver anything that other games have implemented the technology with far more success.
Well it's either impossible to make the game as pitched, as Derek suggests, or it isn't. If it's impossible then it's never been done before. These two things kind of go hand in hand.
If there is a game out there that does all the things 3.0 will bring then please let me know. I'm pretty sure non exists yet.
A game that looks beautiful and I can go from FPS to ship to station, walk around in station, get back in my ship, fly seamlessly to a planetary body and land, do more on foot stuff, PvP or PvE, rinse and repeat.
That's what is new. The whole caboodle, nothing in and of itself but the glorious whole.
You can't have it both ways. It's either impossible to do and therefore never been done before or it's not impossible to do and, probably, been done before. Take your pick.
We're all having fun aren't we?
WE certainly do. But then again, many of us are neither whales nor cultists.
How it must feel for some who is heavily invested in the game to assure himself every morning that everything will turn out fine in the end – this I don’t know :shrug:
(https://i.imgflip.com/1tv3sd.jpg)
I wouldn't describe myself as either a cultist or a whale but I'm certainly having fun. I wouldn't be here if I wasn't.
Post by: N0mad on August 10, 2017, 03:43:49 AM
A game that looks beautiful and I can go from FPS to ship to station, walk around in station, get back in my ship, fly seamlessly to a planetary body and land, do more on foot stuff, PvP or PvE, rinse and repeat.
That's what is new. The whole caboodle, nothing in and of itself but the glorious whole.
I believe it is possible to accomplish what they promise, just not with CryEngine and not by CIG.
Nobody has got every part of what you want working but studios are getting closer to your dream, I'll give you some examples:
- No Man's Sky: looks beautiful and I can go from FPS to ship to station, walk around in station, get back in my ship, fly seamlessly to a planetary body and land, do more on foot stuff, PvE - just lacking PvP
- Space engineers: looks beautiful and I can go from FPS to ship to station, walk around in station, get back in my ship, fly seamlessly to a planetary body and land, do more on foot stuff, PvP - just lacking PvE
- Dual Universe: looks beautiful and I can go from FPS to ship to station, walk around in station, get back in my ship, fly seamlessly to a planetary body and land, do more on foot stuff, PvP - ? lacking PvE
Oh, and the other thing that all these games have in common is that they all use custom engines designed from the ground up to work at the scale required - perhaps something you'd think a computer wiz like CR should have realised from the start.
It's all well and good becoming a huge supporter & defender of a game that exists - if Star Citizen was a real game by now I think we'd all be fans of Chris Roberts instead of being critical.
What I can't understand is why people are huge fans of a game that exists only as screenshots and tech demos. CIG are selling people a dream, their scope is so huge that I bet everyone has a different idea what they game is going to be when it's finished. The trouble with selling an over-hyped dream is that the reality never matches people's expectations - just look at No Man's Sky, and at least they actually have a game!
Post by: Padrepapp on August 10, 2017, 03:59:15 AM
I remember the time when I receieved an email that this thread had a new post, and it was something funny/interesting/new information. Now it's a thread for Serendipity's rambling.
Sad.
Post by: Knight Solaire on August 10, 2017, 04:27:38 AM
I really do hope that the forum's engine has some maximum allowed posts, like 150 so we don't have to read more of Serendipity boring arguments.
I remember the time when I receieved an email that this thread had a new post, and it was something funny/interesting/new information. Now it's a thread for Serendipity's rambling.
Sad.
^^^^^^^^^Yeah, this!^^^^^^^^^^
Post by: N0mad on August 10, 2017, 04:32:28 AM
Post by: Padrepapp on August 10, 2017, 04:43:33 AM
Although it is nice to hear a different opinion occasionally.
Yeah, where occasionally does not mean 100+ posts from 1 person.
I came back from a 1 month holiday, and saw that there are 10+pages on the thread. I was so happy that there are so many things to read, but there were like 5 decent posts.
Post by: Motto on August 10, 2017, 04:57:36 AM
Post by: Knight Solaire on August 10, 2017, 05:25:41 AM
Although it is nice to hear a different opinion occasionally.
Opinions and debate are great, but it seems to have devolved into a pointless conversation where Motto or others will try to provide evidence and reasons for why CIG is lying and taking advantage of backers and in response, Serendipity says he believes everything Chris says and you can't prove he's lying.
This is not a debate because Serendipity never provides any evidence for why he believes CIG and CRoberts are trustworthy in the face of all the evidence to the contrary. He simply states that his opinion is he believes them and will patiently wait for the game.
That's all well and good, but there's really nothing more to be debated there.
Post by: Motto on August 10, 2017, 05:36:13 AM
Post by: Knight Solaire on August 10, 2017, 05:44:36 AM
I disagree :D
http://www.montypython.net/scripts/argument.php
Post by: Motto on August 10, 2017, 05:52:06 AM
Post by: N0mad on August 10, 2017, 05:52:11 AM
Post by: nightfire on August 10, 2017, 12:17:21 PM
I came back from a 1 month holiday, and saw that there are 10+pages on the thread. I was so happy that there are so many things to read, but there were like 5 decent posts.You too? I was away for only one week recently, and it took me two evenings to catch up! :yikes:
Post by: Serendipity on August 11, 2017, 01:58:16 AM
Serendipity says he believes everything Chris says and you can't prove he's lying.
This is not a debate because Serendipity never provides any evidence for why he believes CIG and CRoberts are trustworthy in the face of all the evidence to the contrary. He simply states that his opinion is he believes them and will patiently wait for the game.
That's all well and good, but there's really nothing more to be debated there.
I've never said any such thing. The evidence of them making a game and making progress is visible in AtV every week. I've never said that they're trustworthy but I have mentioned them coming up with the goods before. Remember when I said in this very thread that they said we'd get AC and we did. They said we'd get 2.0 and we did. They said we'd get Star Marine and, massive screw up and re do included, we did. They say we'll get 3.0 and I believe we will because history proves them to be true in delivering stuff they say they will.
It might take more time than expected and they may move around exactly what's included but we get it.
I see no reason for this to change. I don't blindly believe what Chris says. Stop making things up. I also do provide evidence for my comments, if you forget about it, that's not my problem. Evidence of completing prior milestones is evidence enough for me, especially combined with seeing 3.0 working in videos and presentations.
Any evidence they can't do what they say they can?
Post by: Padrepapp on August 11, 2017, 02:15:14 AM
It might take more time than expected and they may move around exactly what's included but we get it.
You can't be serious with this. Every SC release (including the gutted 3.0) sounds like this.
Hey I will give you a camera which has HD, USB connection, and 60fps. You will get it at the end of 2016.
1 year later: Sorry for the delay, here is your camera, it is not what we said it would be, it has no HD, no USB connection, and the framerate is only 24fps, but here it is. It was a really big work with new hightech innovations, so you should be happy for your 24fps.
Post by: N0mad on August 11, 2017, 02:27:35 AM
Any evidence they can't do what they say they can?
https://starcitizentracker.github.io/ (https://starcitizentracker.github.io/)
Um, it's taken them nearly 5 years, 4 studios and $150 million to get to 16% of what they originally promised.
What more evidence do you require?
Post by: nightfire on August 11, 2017, 02:41:18 AM
What more evidence do you require?
Uhm, let me guess… he will argue that this is no „evidence“ to begin with. That, yes, delays have happened before, but that this does not mean anything for the final outcome. That the tracker clearly shows that actual progress is being made all the time. That other AAA games took an eternity of time and millions of money to make as well, without being chastised for it. And that Derek’s games are no better than CIG’s.
But then again, I could be wrong :smugjones:
Post by: Spunky Munkee on August 11, 2017, 03:27:39 AM
I know that the typical comeback is I only paid $45 so I don't care what happens, or
Regardless of the price I paid I am proud to have supported Chris and this groundbreaking project ( the worst kind of cultist. They cannot be reached. I think they are the Kamakaze cultists, true believers, unflappable)
Yes, some games take a long time to complete and have multiple setbacks but we can just look at the history of HOW MANY delays there have been, HOW MANY TIMES have they announced release dates and then changed them. It clearly shows a pattern. Only two conclusions can be drawn here.
Either Chris Roberts is a complete fabricator of his "truth". He just makes up dates to suit his needs regardless of what the evidence would indicate. I'm sure he has lots of meetings, with lots of doughnuts to pass around where they will tell him truthfully where he is in the project but because he likes to keep the whales and other cultists wallets wide open he tells them whatever he thinks will keep the donations flowing. To this end he will make videos and feed information and stock internal footage to various You Tube content creators (and feed them a steady diet of JPEGS for them to sell on the side as payment). With a consumate bullshit artist at the head of a corporation that is wholly and completely dependent on the good will and trust of its supporters, there is a great deal to be concerned with. Should the Cultists realize that they are being lead about by the Pied Piper they will withdraw support, and the project would grind to a close in short order.
Or Chris Roberts is an incompetent boob who has no business tying his own shoes, let alone managing $157 million dollar video game project. If this is the case and I were still a backer I would be very concerned that the project cannot reach a positive conclusion.
As the truth would have it, one condition does not necessarily exclude the other. Chris Roberts may be an incompetent project manager lacking the ability to tie his own shoes or manage this project, there is sufficient evidence to support this conclusion by looking back at the problematic and mismanaged development of Freelancer/ the production of the abysmal Wing Commander movie. Two failures proving that he is incapable of multi tasking and getting good results.
We can also look at the Freelancer project and Space Resident and see that he has no problem with fabricating schedules when it suits his needs. Surely we cannot actually believe that there was sufficient internal feedback from his separate department leads to merit his overly optimistic assessments that would justify claiming he would release 3.0 in December. Then he claimed it would be released early summer, and several times after that. He had to know, but he also knew that donations were way down, and that he was about to take out a second loan(with no more loans available).
So CIG fabricates schedules to keep donations coming in and maintain some hope that the game might come out one day, if they keep feeding him cash. It amazes me how people actually believe that CIG took 2 loans but did not need the money. How can we believe they don't need the money when Roberts told a recent interviewer that he lacks the funds to build the servers once the game is finished. Somehow ample reserves and lacking funds do not fit together in the same corporation. Fit that with we didn't need that loan, or the second loan and you have to wonder what fantasy land the cultists live in.
As always, time will tell. If he pulls the rabbit from the hat. makes 3.0 somehow work smoothly enough, if he can overcome his own self created negative image he might survive another year. That does not guarantee he will deliver what hew initially promised. It simply buys him time, to collect more money and fabricate more schedules.
Post by: StanTheMan on August 11, 2017, 04:21:00 AM
Any evidence they can't do what they say they can?
https://starcitizentracker.github.io/ (https://starcitizentracker.github.io/)
Um, it's taken them nearly 5 years, 4 studios and $150 million to get to 16% of what they originally promised.
What more evidence do you require?
To be fair .. It seems to me that he and a lot of Backers dont care beyond .. can CR deliver something substantially sold sometime in the next 3-5 years ?
With an extra expectation that what is delivered would also be fun to play and result in an ongoing game as opposed to a game that is shut down through lack of interest.
On a superficial analysis it isnt an unreasonable position to have. Add a lot of faith, confirmation bias and more detailed analysis of the facts - and here we are.
As long a CIG is still here saying they are producing the game and churning out something now and then, sales appear to be raising revenue etc ... thats all the evidence they require and it doesnt matter what evidence is put up in opposition to that,, they are going to ignore it.
Post by: Serendipity on August 11, 2017, 04:26:32 AM
It might take more time than expected and they may move around exactly what's included but we get it.
You can't be serious with this. Every SC release (including the gutted 3.0) sounds like this.
Hey I will give you a camera which has HD, USB connection, and 60fps. You will get it at the end of 2016.
1 year later: Sorry for the delay, here is your camera, it is not what we said it would be, it has no HD, no USB connection, and the framerate is only 24fps, but here it is. It was a really big work with new hightech innovations, so you should be happy for your 24fps.
You do understand that an alpha isn't a finished product don't you? The way the game is now isn't how it will stay? Additions to content can and will be made? Terrible, terrible analogy.
Any evidence they can't do what they say they can?
https://starcitizentracker.github.io/ (https://starcitizentracker.github.io/)
Um, it's taken them nearly 5 years, 4 studios and $150 million to get to 16% of what they originally promised.
What more evidence do you require?
Nope. The fact they haven't done it yet is not evidence they can't do it. It took human beings a couple hundred thousand years to make a flying machine. The Wright brothers created in their lifetime what no other human had done in a quarter million years or so. I'd bet they were told it couldn't be done too.
Something something LoD, something something AAA games, something something there you go n0mad.
Post by: Padrepapp on August 11, 2017, 04:41:43 AM
The game as is now is not much different than what it was 2 years ago, and 3.0 won't do shit either. So many features are lacking, it won't even be a good milestone to say: "You see, we have all the core systems we need to complete the game". It will be just another failed patch.
Comparing this project to the Wright brothers is just GOLD. But if you insist, could you please list ALL the projects that were said it could not be done, and as it turned out, it really wasn't possible at that time? I think we remember the Wright brothers (and other big achievers) because they succeeded. Millions failed in the meantime.
Chris Roberts is failing also (for 20 years in a row). They have not delivered (and nor planning to in the near future) ANYTHING, that could be considered special.
Post by: GaryII on August 11, 2017, 04:45:34 AM
Nope. The fact they haven't done it yet is not evidence they can't do it. It took human beings a couple hundred thousand years to make a flying machine.
So see you all after 20-25 years when SC releases in year 2040 maybe...
btw CR by then will be about 70 years old...
Also I hope SC backers are very patient and also have enough money to support this game till 2040...
I am 100 % sure that biggest Star Marine fan WTFOSaurus would not survive till 2040
..common its only 2017 now you can do better... ;)
Jokes aside, I see that this game is Freelancer 2.0 - history just repeats itself - people (CR) does not change especially after age of 40..
Best scenario for SC - MVP is average game with a lot of features missing/broken..bad performance even with 10 players online...
Very good thing is that PU is playable offline:
so backers can continue to dreamcraft even after project is dead if its fails...
Post by: Knight Solaire on August 11, 2017, 04:56:56 AM
Any evidence they can't do what they say they can?
There is plenty of evidence that they can't deliver on their promises. Their record of broken promises and missed deadlines, rolled-back or just thrown-out features has been covered over and over here by Derek and others.
To me (yes, just my opinion), this makes any future promises they make untrustworthy and their motivations for making promises extremely suspect. They have proven that they can't deliver on the promises they make and those promises tend to be made around the time some big new ship sale goes up. This is the kind of behavior from them that I find sickening and needs to stop.
If CIG are indeed sincere about their desire to simply make a great game, then stop taking money (they don't need it according to Chris), stop going to trade shows, stop doing stupid YouTube videos and just get it done.
Post by: N0mad on August 11, 2017, 05:15:16 AM
The fact they haven't done it yet is not evidence they can't do it.This isn't logic, it's faith.
Science doesn't operate on vague hopes it works based on experimental proof & reason. So let's do the maths:
Let's assume that all the goals in the Tracker take the same amount of time and resources to create, therefore with 16% progress so far it will take CIG:
- 26 more years and...
- $787 million more in funding
Post by: Serendipity on August 11, 2017, 05:15:41 AM
Sorry, english is my second language, but is "Serenstupidity" a word? Just wondering...
The game as is now is not much different than what it was 2 years ago, and 3.0 won't do shit either. So many features are lacking, it won't even be a good milestone to say: "You see, we have all the core systems we need to complete the game". It will be just another failed patch.
Comparing this project to the Wright brothers is just GOLD. But if you insist, could you please list ALL the projects that were said it could not be done, and as it turned out, it really wasn't possible at that time? I think we remember the Wright brothers (and other big achievers) because they succeeded. Millions failed in the meantime.
Chris Roberts is failing also (for 20 years in a row). They have not delivered (and nor planning to in the near future) ANYTHING, that could be considered special.
3.0 won't do shit? You're serious? Seamless space to planet in cryengine isn't anything special huh? Blinded.
I wasn't comparing Star Citizen to the Wright brothers, that would be stupid, it was an example of how just because something hasn't been done yet doesn't mean it can't be done.
If you think SC isn't doing anything special then that's up to you. Derek seems to think it's impossible to do what they're doing. Space SIM fans have given 155 million dollars for this nothing special. Each to their own I suppose.
Only time will tell if they succeed or not.
Any evidence they can't do what they say they can?
There is plenty of evidence that they can't deliver on their promises. Their record of broken promises and missed deadlines, rolled-back or just thrown-out features has been covered over and over here by Derek and others.
To me (yes, just my opinion), this makes any future promises they make untrustworthy and their motivations for making promises extremely suspect. They have proven that they can't deliver on the promises they make and those promises tend to be made around the time some big new ship sale goes up. This is the kind of behavior from them that I find sickening and needs to stop.
If CIG are indeed sincere about their desire to simply make a great game, then stop taking money (they don't need it according to Chris), stop going to trade shows, stop doing stupid YouTube videos and just get it done.
You think a company should stop generating sales? Do you realise how daft that sounds? They need a regular income to be a viable business. Without income they don't get rental leases or other lines of credit, with suppliers for example. Any company in the world that is making money will continue to do what is making them money. This is the real world and you don't stop selling as long as people aren't stopping buying.
They've proven over and over again that they will deliver what they say they will, once again the list of major milestones, AC, 2.0, planet side, Star Marine...3.0? Delays don't mean they lied or are incompetent. It's game development, delays are standard.
Post by: Serendipity on August 11, 2017, 05:18:52 AM
The fact they haven't done it yet is not evidence they can't do it.This isn't logic, it's faith.
Science doesn't operate on vague hopes it works based on experimental proof & reason. So let's do the maths:
Let's assume that all the goals in the Tracker take the same amount of time and resources to create, therefore with 16% progress so far it will take CIG:I'm not saying it's impossible to do all they set out to do, plenty of other Games are doing similar things. However, based on the facts we have to hand, it would seem highly unlikely.
- 26 more years and...
- $787 million more in funding
Holy hell that's dumb! Creating content doesn't take the same time as building the systems to run the content. They took 2 years to make SolEd. It now takes an hour to build a star system with it. They also took 2 years to build the company from nothing. Get a grip please.
It's not pure faith though is it? They told us they'd get us AC, 2.0, planet side, hangar, Star Marine and we got them all. 3.0 is just next on the list. Historical evidence of them doing what they say they will.
Post by: Padrepapp on August 11, 2017, 05:33:50 AM
3.0 won't do shit? You're serious? Seamless space to planet in cryengine isn't anything special huh? Blinded.
If you think SC isn't doing anything special then that's up to you. Derek seems to think it's impossible to do what they're doing. Space SIM fans have given 155 million dollars for this nothing special. Each to their own I suppose.
This shows how you curve arguments all the time. I said, they haven't done anything special YET. They plan something special, but are far away from delivering it.
So their achievement so far is they made something in an engine which is not developed to do such things instead of writing their own. Nice. So next time I see someone eating soup with chopsticks and finally is done with it I should be amazed how he done that, instead of using a spoon, or maybe realizing that he could invent something more sufficent than chopsticks.
Post by: Knight Solaire on August 11, 2017, 05:41:34 AM
You think a company should stop generating sales? Do you realise how daft that sounds? They need a regular income to be a viable business. Without income they don't get rental leases or other lines of credit, with suppliers for example. Any company in the world that is making money will continue to do what is making them money. This is the real world and you don't stop selling as long as people aren't stopping buying.
Who's daft? By your logic every game maker would be selling promises 5+ years before their games come out because they couldn't possibly pay their bills any other way. But that's not true. Plenty of games get made through self funding, publishers, private investors, etc., and then are only sold to end users once their is an actual finished product to sell.
Chris has said that having a publisher would stifle his creativity by forcing him to adhere to a budget and a deadline. But in reality it would only stifle his greed.
Post by: N0mad on August 11, 2017, 05:41:48 AM
Creating content doesn't take the same time as building the systems to run the content. They took 2 years to make SolEd. It now takes an hour to build a star system with it.
That's a reasonable assumption to make, but this is CIG - it takes them ages to create content. Creating a ship takes a team months to do - and that's just a small ship. If the SolEd editor makes it so easy to make these systems (and yes I've seen the dev interview and demo) then where are all these planets? - they certainly aren't going to be in 3.0
Besides, they still seem to making the systems to run the content - you'd think they would have managed that after 5 years.
But, OK, let's accept your argument - then the tracker should start showing an acceleration in development, as content is rapidly added. However, just look at the graph on the Tracker. Clearly we haven't reached that point, actually, if anything it seems to have flat-lined.
Post by: GaryII on August 11, 2017, 05:48:02 AM
Delays don't mean they lied or are incompetent. It's game development, delays are standard.
Yes, delays are quite common in game dev., but not delays by several years and every deadline missed...
If delays are that long - project has severe issues in case of SC - crazy feature creep -> never done before :lol:
lack of planning (all those refactorings...)
btw after watching "Burndown" is quite clear that v3.0 is no where ready (Derek was right!) probably several months away, so release in December is very real...
Post by: Serendipity on August 11, 2017, 06:20:18 AM
3.0 won't do shit? You're serious? Seamless space to planet in cryengine isn't anything special huh? Blinded.
If you think SC isn't doing anything special then that's up to you. Derek seems to think it's impossible to do what they're doing. Space SIM fans have given 155 million dollars for this nothing special. Each to their own I suppose.
This shows how you curve arguments all the time. I said, they haven't done anything special YET. They plan something special, but are far away from delivering it.
So their achievement so far is they made something in an engine which is not developed to do such things instead of writing their own. Nice. So next time I see someone eating soup with chopsticks and finally is done with it I should be amazed how he done that, instead of using a spoon, or maybe realizing that he could invent something more sufficent than chopsticks.
I could easily argue that a cryengine map millions of kilometres wide that you can travel through seamlessly is a little bit special. Nobody has done it before at least, but fair enough, apart from that there's nothing special about what's currently available.
Please no more stupid analogies, he chose cryengine for its visuals and then spent years tweaking it to do what he wants. He's got massive maps and will soon have seamless planetary bodies to land on explore, (yes I believe what's in the videos will make it to my SSD eventually), so he'll have made an engine that does what he wants and looks how he wants. Great.
You think a company should stop generating sales? Do you realise how daft that sounds? They need a regular income to be a viable business. Without income they don't get rental leases or other lines of credit, with suppliers for example. Any company in the world that is making money will continue to do what is making them money. This is the real world and you don't stop selling as long as people aren't stopping buying.
Who's daft? By your logic every game maker would be selling promises 5+ years before their games come out because they couldn't possibly pay their bills any other way. But that's not true. Plenty of games get made through self funding, publishers, private investors, etc., and then are only sold to end users once their is an actual finished product to sell.
Chris has said that having a publisher would stifle his creativity by forcing him to adhere to a budget and a deadline. But in reality it would only stifle his greed.
Everyone who bought in knew and knows the state of the project. It explains on the sale pages. Refunds are given if requested. I don't see a problem. If they sold a finished game then yeah, problem, but it's clearly stated all over the place that it's an alpha. The buyer has a choice to become a buyer with that knowledge or to not become a buyer.
Creating content doesn't take the same time as building the systems to run the content. They took 2 years to make SolEd. It now takes an hour to build a star system with it.
That's a reasonable assumption to make, but this is CIG - it takes them ages to create content. Creating a ship takes a team months to do - and that's just a small ship. If the SolEd editor makes it so easy to make these systems (and yes I've seen the dev interview and demo) then where are all these planets? - they certainly aren't going to be in 3.0
Besides, they still seem to making the systems to run the content - you'd think they would have managed that after 5 years.
But, OK, let's accept your argument - then the tracker should start showing an acceleration in development, as content is rapidly added. However, just look at the graph on the Tracker. Clearly we haven't reached that point, actually, if anything it seems to have flat-lined.
It's taken 4 years to get to 3.0. (I've taken a year off for company building), I'd bet a reasonable sum of cash that we get 4.0 and a beta product much earlier than another 4 years.
Post by: N0mad on August 11, 2017, 07:28:14 AM
If there is a game out there that does all the things 3.0 will bring then please let me know. I'm pretty sure non exists yet.
A game that looks beautiful and I can go from FPS to ship to station, walk around in station, get back in my ship, fly seamlessly to a planetary body and land, do more on foot stuff, PvP or PvE, rinse and repeat.
That's what is new. The whole caboodle, nothing in and of itself but the glorious whole.
I've found your new favourite Game Serendipity: The 1.3 update of No Man's Sky:
- 30 hours of new story content
- Economies & Trading
- Planetary biomes
- Crashed freighters & salvage missions
- Dynamically generated missions
- Reputation with NPC guilds
- Improved dogfighting in space and atmosphere
- VOIP with other players
So what's so special about Star Citizen?
Post by: Serendipity on August 11, 2017, 08:13:30 AM
If there is a game out there that does all the things 3.0 will bring then please let me know. I'm pretty sure non exists yet.
A game that looks beautiful and I can go from FPS to ship to station, walk around in station, get back in my ship, fly seamlessly to a planetary body and land, do more on foot stuff, PvP or PvE, rinse and repeat.
That's what is new. The whole caboodle, nothing in and of itself but the glorious whole.
I've found your new favourite Game Serendipity: The 1.3 update of No Man's Sky:
- 30 hours of new story content
- Economies & Trading
- Planetary biomes
- Crashed freighters & salvage missions
- Dynamically generated missions
- Reputation with NPC guilds
- Improved dogfighting in space and atmosphere
- VOIP with other players
So what's so special about Star Citizen?
I'm not here to argue Star Citizen is the best thing ever. I'm here to argue it's pretty cool and should be fun and probably will be completed to a level that most will find acceptable.
Great for NMS to have brought the game up to where a lot of people thought it should have been from the start.
Of course the graphics of NMS don't really stand comparison to SC and let's be serious for a second, neither does the FPS or space flight battles either really, but congrats to them. Maybe I'll buy it now, not sure. Nearly did originally and it seems I was right to wait.
You see, I don't blindly go buying stuff but asses each project on it's own merits. I'm a backer of Dual Universe and Battle whatsy infinity thing as well as a proud owner of Angels fall first, Kerbal, Hellion, Space Engineers and Elite Dangerous.
None of them are as appealing, to me, as what I believe SC will become in time but it doesn't stop me playing them.
Post by: Motto on August 11, 2017, 10:54:07 AM
Now, Chris said he would do do A, B, C, D, E and F-Z. A and B are there, but barely functioning, C is rumored about to be released but as crappy as hell, D is totally faulty, E hasn't been seen or heard from since a democlip 2 years ago and F-Z are mere fantasies at the moment. Now the true believers like Serendipity say, see they said A couldn't be done, but there it is. And see, they said B couldn't be done, but here it is. So just wait untill they prove C too, and then D, E, F-Z, they all will follow.
Now the realists say, but hey wait a minute! A is crap, B is crap and C is still not here yet, so WTF is happening? Besides, it's nice to see A and B working on a very small island where 1 person is surviving his sunken boat, but it's supposed to work all over the entire world. That's a long way to go. And oh yes, that long way to go should have been completed 3 years ago, with everything including A-Z.
Now now, there they're their, hush little baby don't you cry, they're trying to do something not done before so it might take longer, but look, A and B prove they can do it. So you just wait and see, and keep giving them money or they might not complete what they said they would
But, but, WTF! They should be ready by now with everything they said they would, for half the price at that too. Why the fuck do they still need my money? Where the fuck is that game? Why the fuck do they keep selling things that might not even make it to the game when the fucking game itself doesn't excist? Why are they selling stuff that can't be working in the game for at least a couple of years? Why do they think that as long as they are working on it, they're safe? They're not! I pre-ordered a game. If they don't deliver, they have to pay me back. But they can't pay me back because they spend the money on making the game. Nonetheless, they owe me. A game, or the money. Not, whoopsie, money gone, no game yet. Sorry, nuttin' to do about that.
Post by: N0mad on August 11, 2017, 11:38:34 AM
None of them are as appealing, to me, as what I believe SC will become in time
That sort of sums it up. All the things promised by SC at the start: going from first person to ship, walking around planets and stations. Exploring, being a pirate, fighting, trading etc. Nobody was even talking about that stuff at the time. But here we are 5 years later and all these things are being done in other games (admittedly in different ways), but those aren't good enough for you (and sometimes they aren't that good).
You believe SC will be better than these games - the ones you can actually play - based on what? Dreams and vague promises from Chris Roberts?
Post by: nightfire on August 11, 2017, 11:52:13 AM
Scroll back a couple of pages (and then, a couple of pages before that, and so on). Same old mantras by Serendipity, same well-meaning attempts to refute them, same ignorance, deflection, recital of assertions debunked time and again in response. Lots of disbelief and head-shaking, another last-ditch effort by someone else to pull him out of his DreamVerse and back into reality, and there go the same old mantras again. Rinse and repeat.
Derek is right: this is a forum where nobody gets yelled down. But right now, I feel like we’re slowly drowning in cultist Goodthink, which more or less results in the same effect for me. Over the last dozen of pages or so, it has become increasingly difficult to wade through the haystack and find the few good critical needles, as fresh hay is now constantly being piled upon us.
Post by: Motto on August 11, 2017, 01:36:11 PM
Post by: Serendipity on August 12, 2017, 01:29:26 AM
None of them are as appealing, to me, as what I believe SC will become in time
That sort of sums it up. All the things promised by SC at the start: going from first person to ship, walking around planets and stations. Exploring, being a pirate, fighting, trading etc. Nobody was even talking about that stuff at the time. But here we are 5 years later and all these things are being done in other games (admittedly in different ways), but those aren't good enough for you (and sometimes they aren't that good).
You believe SC will be better than these games - the ones you can actually play - based on what? Dreams and vague promises from Chris Roberts?
Based on what I can play right now. It might be buggy and small and lacking features but I get where they want to go and I like it. The FPS is basic and needs better netcode but I enjoy it. The flying ships around bit is fun and exhilarating for me. Others disagree and that's fine. I've been playing video games for almost as long as they've existed and I trust myself. SC is exciting. I'm sure some of y'all have a long history of gaming too and you feel different, that's ok.
I'm not trying to drown anyone, I'm on my own and I'm sure you're all big boys and/or girls who can look after themselves. Use me as target practice, shoot me down.
Post by: nightfire on August 12, 2017, 04:06:08 AM
You believe SC will be better than these games - the ones you can actually play - based on what? Dreams and vague promises from Chris Roberts?
Based on what I can play right now. It might be buggy and small and lacking features but I get where they want to go and I like it. The FPS is basic and needs better netcode but I enjoy it. The flying ships around bit is fun and exhilarating for me. Others disagree and that's fine. I've been playing video games for almost as long as they've existed and I trust myself. SC is exciting. I'm sure some of y'all have a long history of gaming too and you feel different, that's ok.
I'm not trying to drown anyone, I'm on my own and I'm sure you're all big boys and/or girls who can look after themselves. Use me as target practice, shoot me down.
Let me get this straight:
I believe that I can climb Mount Everest.
Based on what? Dreams?
Based on the walks in the city park I’m doing right now. The city park might be small and lacking rocks, ice and any kind of alpine features, but I know where I want to go from here. My mountaineering skills are basic and I’ll need better shoes and equipment, but I enjoy the worn-out sneakers I currently have. I know that it will take a lot of stuff and money to build the tools and lay the foundations to reach the top of Mount Everest, but even though I spent the money my parents gave me on new doors and fancy stuff for my apartment, I’m sure I will get there. I hope that my parents will be patient and trustful enough to pledge some more money for my cause.
Others disagree that I’ll be able to climb Mount Everest and that’s fine. I’ve been walking around in city parks for almost as long as they’ve existed and I trust myself. Mount Everest is exciting. I’m sure some of you feel different about the chance that I will make it to the summit, that’s ok.
NOTE: Nothing of the above shall be interpreted as „evidence“ that I won’t be able to climb Mount Everest. I’ve never done anything like that before and I’ve barely ventured beyond the city limits in my life, but just because something hasn’t been done yet, doesn’t mean that it’s impossible. Also, my stupid neighbor Fred hasn’t managed to climb Mount Everest yet either, even though he constantly makes fun of my sneakers. So there.
Anything sound familiar here?
Post by: Spunky Munkee on August 12, 2017, 04:06:39 AM
Any conversation with you goes round in circles.
I am sure we will continue to find every flaw, lie, and shady business practice associated with what has arguably become the largest crowdfunded failure in history.
Please don't claim that the fact that they have raised lots of money is evidence of success. It is evidence of a full press media blitz across the internet and a cult of personality. A good and enjoyable completed game in the time frame they provided would be evidence of success. That has not happened. I distinctly remember last summer seeing several videos from disgruntled cultists. They were do deflated. They were led to believe that 3.0 would debut and all they got was some demo video with a stolen sand worm promising that this is what they would get. They got nothing, even a year later though the feature list has become much shorter despite all the claims of Roberts with his promised feature creep.
It's so strange. Roberts would continually make his list of features in the game longer and longer and now that its time to deliver, or actually now that he is way late to deliver anything his ambitions seem to have shrunk appreciably. Interesting. There is no scam here. Not here. This is a business and all these problems.... they were unforeseen. That's right, unforeseen. It was the goons fault for driving of backers, and that evil goblin Derek Smart. What a terrible person. He lied and turned my backers, MY BACKERS against me! HOW DARE HE!
I can hear it now off in the distance.
The words of a small man with his dreams of empire crumbling around him.
His failure is proof there is a sort of cosmic justice.
In the meanwhile nearly every You Tube advertisement will get trolled as it deserves. People should be forewarned of what a mess they might buy into.
Post by: AlsoSmart on August 12, 2017, 09:53:12 AM
You are in a forum with people with a clear anti-CIG-business-philosophy-stance, and all your posts until now (either the subtle or the obvious ones) represent everything against the people here with their anti-CIG-business-philosophy-stance and shows your irrational adoration for the SC project.
You also cannot hide your fanatism for SC with your pseudo sincere neutral behavior since your communciation pattern is way to obvious.
Also 140+ posts just to say subtly F.U. is quiet an accomplishment so far.
Post by: dsmart on August 13, 2017, 10:32:13 AM
@Serendipity
You are in a forum with people with a clear anti-CIG-business-philosophy-stance, and all your posts until now (either the subtle or the obvious ones) represent everything against the people here with their anti-CIG-business-philosophy-stance and shows your irrational adoration for the SC project.
You also cannot hide your fanatism for SC with your pseudo sincere neutral behavior since your communciation pattern is way to obvious.
Also 140+ posts just to say subtly F.U. is quiet an accomplishment so far.
Well to be fair, he has the Spectrum and Reddit hug boxes to engage in, but he chose to come here. The problem with us here is not that we are anti-CIG. It's that we're anti-CIG Bullshit. There is a difference. We're neither believers nor sycophants.
Post by: dsmart on August 13, 2017, 10:48:49 AM
https://twitter.com/dsmart/status/896414184111517696
You have to read the mental gymnastics to grasp the gravity of what they just did with the Aug 11 schedule (https://robertsspaceindustries.com/schedule-report).
https://robertsspaceindustries.com/spectrum/community/SC/forum/3/thread/production-schedule-megathread-august-11th-2017
(https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/157643206631227393/346126380452413471/Screenshot_2017-08-12_at_11.01.59_PM.png)
Quote
Wait a minute, it becomes clear now why they doing this Burndown segment.
This is to get ahead of the inevitable delay into late this year possibly even next year
They have not even locked down the 3.0 branch yet
and have thousands of jira issues
3676 issues in the 3.0 branch
This is only to have a plausible excuse for further delays. They know already they can;t get this out the door.
They have not even started with the burndown.
They are still forking the 3.0 branch
Another interesting thing is him saying that SQ42 and PU are in the same master branch. This confirms some of the rumors about SQ42 not being a stand alone game any more. If it is all in one repo then they either have to branch it at some point or if they build SQ42, it will have PU and SQ42
(https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/166260954412089344/345689631297372171/unknown.png)
Meanwhile over there :
3.0.0 and Global Progress Watch - Update 2017-08-11 (https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/comments/6t7hfu/300_and_global_progress_watch_update_20170811/)
It's time we talked, the delay in 3.0 is partially our fault (https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/comments/6sxm8a/its_time_we_talked_the_delay_in_30_is_partially/dlgc2sz/)
concierge backer would like to ask for possibilities (https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen_refunds/comments/6srkm1/concierge_backer_would_like_to_ask_for/) (refund)
(http://i.imgur.com/RuNJCFg.gif)
Post by: dsmart on August 13, 2017, 10:49:17 AM
Post by: Motto on August 13, 2017, 10:57:12 AM
This vapourware 'Jesus patch' is becoming even more of a joke among the general gaming community than it already was...I'm seriously embarrassed to admit on other gaming sites that I'm a backer as it is....and to think of all the hours explaining to the natural sceptics among my friends the possibilities I saw in SC, why I gave my support to the concept and the dream behind it. From now, I think I'll be wise just not mentioning SC at all.
How can I realistically explain my previous enthusiasm at being an alpha 'tester' when all that's been tested over the past year has been the cash cow backers patience? Well, like many others...my wallet is firmly shut until this alpha test is on my hard drive...after all, CR saw fit to let gaming media play test something we as backers, subscribers and supposed play testers apparently are now so superfluous, we haven't even seen as much as a fix for the the current and very broken baby PU. I'm tired of lies, misdirection, smoke and mirror tech demos, excuses and smiling faces expecting me to swallow even more bullshit on a weekly basis....I know, I just know there will be the ever chanted war cry that's fast becoming a meme...'I know nothing about game development'. ...But I can certainly tell bullshit when I hear it.
It's really seeming like the only person on the entire planet that doesn't want SC to be the BDSSE outside of aimless dreaming is CR himself. Enough crap, enough with the polishing, refactoring, burn downs, sales talk and adding pointless fluff to something that doesn't exist outside of CiG's offices and get the damned thing shipped so I can hold my head up among my many friends in the gaming community and be proud instead of embarrassed I backed the bloody thing in the first place.
Or
see, you can't keep saying "this update is huge, the technology is revolutionary, no man has gone there before" and then slap a 5 to 10 days on this task and call it a "genuine best estimation". The schedule on tasks seems good enough and slippage here and there was to be expected, but all the release aims dates, that was a joke!
Who in his right mind would think that bringing this whole humongous pieces together could take between 2 weeks to a month and be taken seriously. Given the huge number of various bugs given in the report, who could estimate to 'maybe next week or the next' an evocaty release for 2 months straight??
The new schedule format certainly seems more honest, but at this point, it's hard to believe it comes from a genuine intention as opposed to the fact that the fantasy dates schedule was putting cig in an untenable situation so a format change had to happen to avoid antagonizing the potential buyer. Also, a lot of communication doesn't equate to a lot of transparency, what is communicated matters for that. i don't know that using atvs and bugsmasher to promote an ongoing sale can really be called 'transparency' more than marketing.
IMHO, i'd like more hard truths from cig, like removing the '2017' from the squadron 42 pre-order page and replace it with something which bear some sense like 'in development' and in general avoid the whole routine of giving 'optimistic' dates around events to be replaced by 'dev is hard we can't give dates' around delivery time.
I look forward to the days of chris roberts simply saying 'coming next' the public events, not 'soon' which translate to 6 months / more than a year later.
I look forward to him clearly stating when something has taken considerable delays and not sweep in under the rug while showing a new shiny concept tech.
Post by: Serendipity on August 14, 2017, 01:36:05 AM
@Serendipity
You are in a forum with people with a clear anti-CIG-business-philosophy-stance, and all your posts until now (either the subtle or the obvious ones) represent everything against the people here with their anti-CIG-business-philosophy-stance and shows your irrational adoration for the SC project.
You also cannot hide your fanatism for SC with your pseudo sincere neutral behavior since your communciation pattern is way to obvious.
Also 140+ posts just to say subtly F.U. is quiet an accomplishment so far.
Should those of opposing views not be allowed to mingle in public? Shall we all retire to echo chambers where all we hear is biased confirmation of our own thoughts and ideas?
Not for me.
Fanaticism, pseudo sincere, SC adoration? Ok. I sense more flawed analytics. Perhaps just hyperbole. I never can tell but you guys sound much more emotionally involved than I will ever be. Some posts on the last page come across as particularly unhinged. Is it impossible to accept that I might just be a normal person that isn't heavily invested, either emotionally or financially, who likes chatting on forums?
What do you think will be in the Gamescom presentation then people? Throw some predictions out there.
Post by: Padrepapp on August 14, 2017, 01:41:06 AM
Fanaticism, pseudo sincere, SC adoration? Ok. I sense more flawed analytics. Perhaps just hyperbole. I never can tell.
Any comment on latest news? CIG lying again about release dates?
Post by: Serendipity on August 14, 2017, 01:58:17 AM
Fanaticism, pseudo sincere, SC adoration? Ok. I sense more flawed analytics. Perhaps just hyperbole. I never can tell.
Any comment on latest news? CIG lying again about release dates?
Which release dates would that be? Did you mean the estimated dates that come with a few paragraphs of caveats? Being wrong isn't necessarily lying. We've been through this a few pages ago.
Post by: Padrepapp on August 14, 2017, 02:03:26 AM
Fanaticism, pseudo sincere, SC adoration? Ok. I sense more flawed analytics. Perhaps just hyperbole. I never can tell.
Any comment on latest news? CIG lying again about release dates?
Which release dates would that be? Did you mean the estimated dates that come with a few paragraphs of caveats? Being wrong isn't necessarily lying. We've been through this a few pages ago.
Well we too have R&D projects at the company. But we never pushed estimated dates more than once/project.
If we would say 2 weeks, and then 2 weeks and again 2 weeks later, our customers would think that we are lying again and we can't deliver.
I think experienced game designers can estimate at least within a few weeks accuracy. Yet they are 1 year late with 3.0 while always stripping content from it.
This is lying.
Post by: Serendipity on August 14, 2017, 02:29:06 AM
They've added new stuff to 3.0 as well as removed stuff, it's almost as if, "Gamedev is like a jigsaw puzzle that you put together piece by piece. Like seeing how the sausage is made, it’s not always glamorous, stuff breaks (like all the time); and sometimes you put in a wrong piece that doesn’t fit (making it either a bug or a bad design choice) at all. Then you refactor it, put in a new piece that either fits, or breaks everything that previously worked
Those are Derek's words. He understands game development is hard and unpredictable.
Post by: nightfire on August 14, 2017, 02:35:56 AM
Post by: GaryII on August 14, 2017, 02:36:34 AM
Those are Derek's words. He understands game development is hard and unpredictable.
Looking at CIG looks like for some people game dev is too hard...
Unfortunately looks like CR will kill this project..initial idea in 2013 was good, that I and many others (including Derek) backed...
After watching first "Burndown" is clear that project state currently is overcomplicated mess..
Anyway interesting times ahead -> BIG question - will people spend a lot of money on remaining 2017 sales..
Post by: nightfire on August 14, 2017, 02:54:16 AM
Looking at CIG looks like for some people game dev is too hard...That’s a good way to look at it… CIG makes game development look way harder than it actually is :laugh:
A doctor examines an overworked developer with chest pain in the emergency room and asks him what day it is. He gets the following reply:
"This week's delay is due to the second mission giver, Ruto, completing his subsumption, and therefore needing some support from gamecode engineers and graphics engineers to be fully polished“
I’m certain that would lead to a prolonged stay at the clinic and possible referral to the psychiatric ward :supaburn:
Post by: Serendipity on August 14, 2017, 03:01:21 AM
Please. Not this „people don't understand game development“ stuff again. As for release dates… they are no longer with us. Are we supposed to accept this straightfaced? Who in their right mind would think that this is the most normal thing in the world to happen??
You can accept it or not at your leisure. I can accept it because I don't care about waiting for a video game. My life is full of other things and other games. I lose no sleep over this. It's not normal I suppose but very little about this project is normal.
The schedule report page shows lots of things getting finished. Hopefully I can play it soon. TM or not.
Those are Derek's words. He understands game development is hard and unpredictable.
Looking at CIG looks like for some people game dev is too hard...
Unfortunately looks like CR will kill this project..initial idea in 2013 was good, that I and many others (including Derek) backed...
After watching first "Burndown" is clear that project state currently is overcomplicated mess..
Anyway interesting times ahead -> BIG question - will people spend a lot of money on remaining 2017 sales..
Very interesting times. Presentations and sales upcoming and hopefully a major release as well. Exciting. It'll be hard to gauge the response though, what with the funding tracker apparently being completely unreliable. How will we measure the success or not of these upcoming events?
Post by: N0mad on August 14, 2017, 03:38:55 AM
Any comment on latest news? CIG lying again about release dates?
Which release dates would that be? Did you mean the estimated dates that come with a few paragraphs of caveats? Being wrong isn't necessarily lying. We've been through this a few pages ago.
Hi all, I know this has been analysed to death but I though I might put all the links here - partly because there isn't a single reference for all this, but mostly because of Serendipity.
GamesCom August 2016 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z-3YBuFI3iI&t=1416)
FF to 23:35
CR referring to 3.0: "It's our big end of the year release. We're going to get it out at the end of the year, hopefully not on December the 19th"
"I get shot for making promises, but that's our goal"
Up to April 14th 2017 (https://web.archive.org/web/20170401165231/https://robertsspaceindustries.com/schedule-report)
No 3.0 release dates but they were listing: basic professions (Trading / Cargo / Piracy / Smuggling / Bounty Hunter) as well as the entire Stanton system.
April 14th 2017 (https://web.archive.org/web/20170415041539/https://robertsspaceindustries.com/schedule-report)
Stanton update reduced to 3 moons. Delamar (and Levski) now a stretch Goal.
Evocati Start: 52 days
Release in: 76 days (Release Aim Date 29th June)
5th May 2017 (https://web.archive.org/web/20170506184812/https://robertsspaceindustries.com/schedule-report)
Evocati Start: 32 days
Release in: 69 days (Release Aim Dates 29th June - 13th July)
19th May 2017 (https://web.archive.org/web/20170520003238/https://robertsspaceindustries.com/schedule-report)
Evocati Start: 25 days
Release in: 62 days (Release Aim Dates 6th July - 20th July)
9th June 2017 (https://web.archive.org/web/20170610212110/https://robertsspaceindustries.com/schedule-report)
Evocati Start: 13 days
Release in: 48 days (Release Aim Dates 21st July - 27th July)
23rd June 2017 (https://web.archive.org/web/20170624013016/https://robertsspaceindustries.com/schedule-report)
Evocati Start: 14 days
Release in: 48 days (Release Aim Dates 4th August - 10th August)
7th July 2017 (https://web.archive.org/web/20170708155753/https://robertsspaceindustries.com/schedule-report)
Evocati Start: 14 days
Release in: 49 days (Release Aim Dates 21st August - 25th August)
Derek posts (http://dereksmart.com/forums/topic/sc-scoop/#post-5521) how his sources say that the performance issues are thus far insurmountable.
28th July 2017 (https://web.archive.org/web/20170729173927/https://robertsspaceindustries.com/schedule-report)
Evocati Start: 6 days
Release in: 42 days (Release Aim Dates 4th Sept - 8th Sept)
11th August 2017 (https://robertsspaceindustries.com/schedule-report)
Aim dates removed
Now one argument might be that it's hard to predict Game development, especially months ahead, but look back at the 5th of May update - they were predicting a release to the test server in 32 days. Yet here we are 3 months later with all aim dates dropped.
Even if this isn't lying to the backers, it's at least gross incompetence.
Post by: Padrepapp on August 14, 2017, 03:41:39 AM
I can accept it because I don't care about waiting for a video game. My life is full of other things and other games. I lose no sleep over this. It's not normal I suppose but very little about this project is normal.
Yet you have 130+ comments about this. This shows how you don't care.
Post by: dsmart on August 14, 2017, 04:23:49 AM
I can accept it because I don't care about waiting for a video game. My life is full of other things and other games. I lose no sleep over this. It's not normal I suppose but very little about this project is normal.
Yet you have 130+ comments about this. This shows how you don't care.
:laugh: :supaburn: :vince:
Post by: dsmart on August 14, 2017, 04:33:28 AM
If you say so. Personally not really bothered if it was. They've had my money so now I'm waiting for a couple of cool space games. I'm in no rush.
They've added new stuff to 3.0 as well as removed stuff, it's almost as if, "Gamedev is like a jigsaw puzzle that you put together piece by piece. Like seeing how the sausage is made, it’s not always glamorous, stuff breaks (like all the time); and sometimes you put in a wrong piece that doesn’t fit (making it either a bug or a bad design choice) at all. Then you refactor it, put in a new piece that either fits, or breaks everything that previously worked
Those are Derek's words. He understands game development is hard and unpredictable.
You see, the difference is that you don't then consistently LIE about things in order to continue SCAMMING backers out of their money.
You can take as long as you want, and do ANYTHING you want with your project when it's YOUR money to burn. e.g. back in 2014 I made the decision to do a spin-off game, Line Of Defense Tactics (http://lodgame.com/tactics/) because I already knew that i) LoD was going to take longer ii) we already had all the assets we needed.
So in less than 12 months, we had a multi-platform (PC, mobile, XBOX1) game which later made back its entire approx $500K investment on mobile alone in less than a month. That money went back in the company, which then continued to spend it on LoD. That's called planning. And it wasn't money from backers, banks, or investors. It was all company money. And we're looking at yet another spin-off game in the LoD franchise which will make two games released since Star Citizen was announced.
Post by: Serendipity on August 14, 2017, 04:37:46 AM
I can accept it because I don't care about waiting for a video game. My life is full of other things and other games. I lose no sleep over this. It's not normal I suppose but very little about this project is normal.
Yet you have 130+ comments about this. This shows how you don't care.
How does posting on this forum mean I care about the game taking time to be completed? I'm just passing the time. I really don't care about waiting for a video game. Posting on here proves nothing contrary to that statement at all.
Quote
Even if this isn't lying to the backers, it's at least gross incompetence.
Again with the absolutes. It doesn't have to be one of the other. It might be that, as the caveats state, the dates were nothing but aggressive targets that had to change to reflect reality. No deadlines. No promises. Just a hard working dev team doing their best to get it done. If you'd read the caveats and words within the updates you should have noticed this possibility.
Post by: Motto on August 14, 2017, 04:41:51 AM
And we're looking at yet another spin-off game in the LoD franchise which will make two games released since Star Citizen was announced.
But you don't have their kind of fidelity. And you're not using the latest technology. And you're not doing things that have never ever been done before. Basically, you're not building the BDSSE, so that's no comparison. My guess is, you're just trying to hitch a hike on the whole SC Versing the Burning Down Universe... And has Sandi now signed on, or are you still negotiating with her?
Post by: dsmart on August 14, 2017, 04:43:41 AM
Please. Not this „people don't understand game development“ stuff again. As for release dates… they are no longer with us. Are we supposed to accept this straightfaced? Who in their right mind would think that this is the most normal thing in the world to happen??
No, it's not normal. Imagine if Chris went to a publisher and said, "We're not putting dates on the schedule anymore". Their contract would be terminated immediately.
Fact is, as I stated back in May (http://dereksmart.com/forums/reply/5276/), there IS a schedule. There always was. It's just internal and goes on through 2021. And CIG has been feeding backers bullshit. Now it has become 100% clear that "Derek Smart was right" - again - and instead of continuing the farce of pretending that the public schedule is correct, they just replaced it entirely with bullshit that basically reverts everything back to square one. Remember, they weren't even doing schedules until Dec 2016, almost 18 months after I spent my own money on legal bills asking them to provide one to backers. Now it's gone again.
Post by: N0mad on August 14, 2017, 04:51:03 AM
It might be that, as the caveats state, the dates were nothing but aggressive targets that had to change to reflect reality. No deadlines. No promises. Just a hard working dev team doing their best to get it done. If you'd read the caveats and words within the updates you should have noticed this possibility.
CR referring to 3.0 at GamesCom August 2016: "It's our big end of the year release. We're going to get it out at the end of the year, hopefully not on December the 19th"
"I get shot for making promises, but that's our goal"
He said that to a room full of people who are effectively his publishers and here we are still waiting - 8 months and counting - but it's OK because it's an "aggressive target" :vince:
Post by: Serendipity on August 14, 2017, 07:20:20 AM
It might be that, as the caveats state, the dates were nothing but aggressive targets that had to change to reflect reality. No deadlines. No promises. Just a hard working dev team doing their best to get it done. If you'd read the caveats and words within the updates you should have noticed this possibility.
CR referring to 3.0 at GamesCom August 2016: "It's our big end of the year release. We're going to get it out at the end of the year, hopefully not on December the 19th"
"I get shot for making promises, but that's our goal"
He said that to a room full of people who are effectively his publishers and here we are still waiting - 8 months and counting - but it's OK because it's an "aggressive target" :vince:
The goal was missed. I don't care. If the company collapses before I get my games, then I'll care. Until then I'm ok to wait and watch. People raging about missed dates in video game releases always makes me laugh. I just don't get it. It doesn't matter to me if I play a game now or in 12 months. The funding isn't slowing down, it's up on last year's Jan to Aug, so I'm confident financial collapse isn't happening this year or early next.
Watching streamers play 2.6 at gamescom is a little naff to be fair as that's, ermmm, exactly what happened last year but getting a reasonably stable 3.0 patch soon after and then showing a chunk of squadron at citizencon should bolster backer confidence and the CIG bank balance significantly.
My crystal ball is now going back in the cupboard.
Post by: dsmart on August 14, 2017, 07:21:19 AM
And we're looking at yet another spin-off game in the LoD franchise which will make two games released since Star Citizen was announced.
But you don't have their kind of fidelity. And you're not using the latest technology. And you're not doing things that have never ever been done before. Basically, you're not building the BDSSE, so that's no comparison. My guess is, you're just trying to hitch a hike on the whole SC Versing the Burning Down Universe... And has Sandi now signed on, or are you still negotiating with her?
Right. That's the part that we need to catch up on. It's tough being an indie you see :laugh:
Post by: Serendipity on August 14, 2017, 07:23:51 AM
And we're looking at yet another spin-off game in the LoD franchise which will make two games released since Star Citizen was announced.
But you don't have their kind of fidelity. And you're not using the latest technology. And you're not doing things that have never ever been done before. Basically, you're not building the BDSSE, so that's no comparison. My guess is, you're just trying to hitch a hike on the whole SC Versing the Burning Down Universe... And has Sandi now signed on, or are you still negotiating with her?
Right. That's the part that we need to catch up on. It's tough being an indie you see :laugh:
Couple of questions.
What does indie mean for a game Dev company?
Who are Star Citizen and Squadron 42's publisher?
Post by: dsmart on August 14, 2017, 10:47:06 AM
Couple of questions.
What does indie mean for a game Dev company?
Who are Star Citizen and Squadron 42's publisher?
As most of us have decided that it's a waste of time engaging you in any sort of discussion, I have joined the party. So just going to ignore you. Life's too short, and you're just part of wasting what's left of it. :wave:
Post by: Serendipity on August 14, 2017, 02:49:54 PM
Post by: Motto on August 14, 2017, 03:04:37 PM
Post by: nightfire on August 14, 2017, 03:13:52 PM
Why CIG does not have private investors? (https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/comments/6tor2k/why_cig_does_not_have_private_investors/)
(http://i.imgur.com/Wotq0Cl.jpg)
These guys really see nothing wrong with their own idiocy :vince:
Post by: StanTheMan on August 14, 2017, 03:29:51 PM
It might be that, as the caveats state, the dates were nothing but aggressive targets that had to change to reflect reality. No deadlines. No promises. Just a hard working dev team doing their best to get it done. If you'd read the caveats and words within the updates you should have noticed this possibility.
CR referring to 3.0 at GamesCom August 2016: "It's our big end of the year release. We're going to get it out at the end of the year, hopefully not on December the 19th"
"I get shot for making promises, but that's our goal"
He said that to a room full of people who are effectively his publishers and here we are still waiting - 8 months and counting - but it's OK because it's an "aggressive target" :vince:
The goal was missed. I don't care. If the company collapses before I get my games, then I'll care. Until then I'm ok to wait and watch. People raging about missed dates in video game releases always makes me laugh. I just don't get it. It doesn't matter to me if I play a game now or in 12 months. The funding isn't slowing down, it's up on last year's Jan to Aug, so I'm confident financial collapse isn't happening this year or early next.
Watching streamers play 2.6 at gamescom is a little naff to be fair as that's, ermmm, exactly what happened last year but getting a reasonably stable 3.0 patch soon after and then showing a chunk of squadron at citizencon should bolster backer confidence and the CIG bank balance significantly.
My crystal ball is now going back in the cupboard.
There are people that have died waiting for SC having spent over $10k...
Now sure .. thats not proving anything much but they took CR on his word just as many Backers have.
People rage over missed dates because it is UNPROFESSIONAL to manage projects in the way CR is doing.
Post by: Serendipity on August 15, 2017, 06:38:00 AM
Maybe the 'gamechanger' mentioned by Ben a few weeks ago and probably the 600 series too.
Post by: dsmart on August 15, 2017, 07:47:37 AM
This is amazing!
Why CIG does not have private investors? (https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/comments/6tor2k/why_cig_does_not_have_private_investors/)
(http://i.imgur.com/Wotq0Cl.jpg)
These guys really see nothing wrong with their own idiocy :vince:
They're fucking morons. Aside from that, CIG does in fact have private investors. I actually know two of them. One pulled his money out back in 2016 amid much fanfare.
Post by: dsmart on August 15, 2017, 07:49:47 AM
I will not be issuing you any further warnings, nor deleting your inappropriate posts. Next time, it's a straight up IP + email ban.
There is NO trolling on this board. Take that shit to Reddit and keep it there.
Post by: dsmart on August 15, 2017, 08:18:38 AM
(https://forum-cdn.quartertothree.com/uploads/default/original/2X/e/eb7a5ac6cd24cf6e7f62f8f244c671ac1b360ebb.gif)
Post by: Motto on August 15, 2017, 08:32:05 AM
Obviously, it should say Error SQ42, Game not found
Post by: Serendipity on August 15, 2017, 01:51:14 PM
I will not be issuing you any further warnings, nor deleting your inappropriate posts. Next time, it's a straight up IP + email ban.
There is NO trolling on this board. Take that shit to Reddit and keep it there.
It wasn't intentionally trolling, I'm genuinely curious if you think they won't be able to pay wages this month because all the money is gone.
Post by: N0mad on August 16, 2017, 09:58:12 AM
Guess the physics still has bugs.
Post by: Serendipity on August 17, 2017, 12:43:07 AM
Post by: N0mad on August 17, 2017, 01:22:22 AM
An alpha version of a video game has some bugs? Well then, the project is obviously doomed.
Grow a sense of humour and actually watch the video before commenting - it's clearly a joke.
So is the rest of the Star Citizen - but that's a different discussion.
Post by: Serendipity on August 17, 2017, 01:31:53 AM
Video wasn't available. I just saw a still shot of a commando floating weirdly in space.An alpha version of a video game has some bugs? Well then, the project is obviously doomed.
Grow a sense of humour and actually watch the video before commenting - it's clearly a joke.
So is the rest of the Star Citizen - but that's a different discussion.
Post by: Padrepapp on August 17, 2017, 01:36:37 AM
Nah, no trolling here. Phew.
Did not know calling someone stupid is trolling.
from urban dictionary:
"The art of deliberately, cleverly, and secretly pissing people off, usually via the internet, using dialogue. Trolling does not mean just making rude remarks: Shouting swear words at someone doesn't count as trolling."
huh...
Post by: Serendipity on August 17, 2017, 01:39:14 AM
Post by: Padrepapp on August 17, 2017, 01:42:27 AM
Did not know that calling someone stupid is "outright insulting" either. How sensitive people can get?
Post by: Serendipity on August 17, 2017, 01:43:46 AM
It seems to me, that there is a consensus about your stupidity among forum members.
Did not know that calling someone stupid is "outright insulting" either. How sensitive people can get?
Yeah, it's funny how group think affects people. Other forums have postulated the reverse. Que Sera Sera.
Post by: Padrepapp on August 17, 2017, 01:50:03 AM
Many of us would appreciate if you decided to do this. The forum would become what it was once again. A site where we can read the opinion of DS and have a laugh at CIG. It was soooooo good before you. It was comedy gold. Now it's people whining because of namecalling and posting the same arguments 150+ times.
I think you are not only stupid, but boring and annoying as well, polluting a lot of people's place to have a laugh.
If anyone is a troll in this thread, it's you.
Post by: Serendipity on August 17, 2017, 01:54:23 AM
Post by: Motto on August 17, 2017, 02:33:32 AM
I thought that "stupid" best described that opinion but I am open to alternative wording if stupid has such a negative meaning that it is considered trolling.
Post by: Serendipity on August 17, 2017, 05:00:06 AM
Just to be clear, I'm not trolling. When I say that I think that Serendipity is stupid, I really mean that. Not as trolling, but in the sense that he really lacks basic intellect, that he is dumb, that he really is not smart at all, that he is an idiot, a moron. Mentally challenged on still uncharted levels. You get my drift here.
I thought that "stupid" best described that opinion but I am open to alternative wording if stupid has such a negative meaning that it is considered trolling.
Atta-boy, see, it's fun having me around.
Post by: dsmart on August 17, 2017, 05:32:10 AM
If you feel you don't get any value from this forum or feel violated because people think you are stupid regarding how you percept SC, you can always leave, or just read and not comment.
Many of us would appreciate if you decided to do this. The forum would become what it was once again. A site where we can read the opinion of DS and have a laugh at CIG. It was soooooo good before you. It was comedy gold. Now it's people whining because of namecalling and posting the same arguments 150+ times.
I think you are not only stupid, but boring and annoying as well, polluting a lot of people's place to have a laugh.
If anyone is a troll in this thread, it's you.
You are talking to someone who has no clue, and you expect him to understand any of this? Most of us have accepted him as the forum mascot now, so there's that.
Fact is, several "believers" have come here and long gone. None of them had the fortitude to be as obtuse and stupid as this one.
And you can go to their /r/ds enclave - right now - and see the sort of posts him and his friends are posting even as they engage in targeted harassment in a single Reddit dedicated to doing only that against one person. But he's here, crying foul. This is why they all congregate over there because even their own mods, though /r/starcitizen can be just as abusive, they tend to ban them frequently. Then once in a while they wander into Goon enclave /r/starcitizen_refunds, try the same shit, get tarred and feathered, cry foul, then leave.
Oh but telling someone they're stupid, is bad. You can pull up his posting history right here and on Reddit and see the hypocrisy within.
Post by: dsmart on August 17, 2017, 05:32:54 AM
Just to be clear, I'm not trolling. When I say that I think that Serendipity is stupid, I really mean that. Not as trolling, but in the sense that he really lacks basic intellect, that he is dumb, that he really is not smart at all, that he is an idiot, a moron. Mentally challenged on still uncharted levels. You get my drift here.
I thought that "stupid" best described that opinion but I am open to alternative wording if stupid has such a negative meaning that it is considered trolling.
Nah, you're fine. He's stupid.
Post by: Serendipity on August 17, 2017, 06:49:52 AM
Please do go have a look at my reddit comments: https://www.reddit.com/user/ConfusedMonkeh/comments
Nothing to hide. I may have called some people some names at some points but that's ok according to y'all.
Post by: StarBallz on August 17, 2017, 08:12:01 AM
Post by: Motto on August 17, 2017, 11:50:22 AM
If Serendipity had been on the Titanic, he would have been standing on the tip of the bow - the only part still above water - and he then would say "iceberg, what iceberg? There's a huge mass of something white in front of me that looks, smells, tastes and feels like an iceberg, but it could be very thick mist too. Besides, there might be a big airbubble left that lifts the ship straight again, who knows? I got a swimming degree, so I'll survive.
Post by: Serendipity on August 18, 2017, 01:23:01 AM
Not that any of that matters at all. Let's get this thread back on topic shall we? Talking about me is very flattering but it's not really about 'The Game'.
I liked the AtV bit where the female shopkeeper followed the character around as she was talking, that was cool. Wasn't so impressed with the hastily spoken bug list bit where they've fixed 54 and found 48 or whatever. Just as well I'm patient because 3.0 ain't arriving any time soon it seems.
Has any other game had such smooth NPC tracking of the player character? Most games just have the NPC staring past you and then turning stiffly if you move out of their cone of vision. I think 3.0 is going to be a decent step forward. End of September maybe?
Post by: N0mad on August 18, 2017, 01:31:03 AM
End of September maybe?
Ha ha ha ha
and I thought you didn't have a sense of humour :lol:
Post by: helimoth on August 18, 2017, 02:07:53 AM
Not that any of that matters at all. Let's get this thread back on topic shall we? Talking about me is very flattering but it's not really about 'The Game'.
Must be nice to be able to post somewhere to talk about star citizen without having overzealous mods ban anyone who even breathes a word of criticism or discontent. I assume that's why you post here because you accept the echo-chamber circlejerk of the RSI forums and /r/starcitizen are completely inferior to this board. I, for one, thank you for that compliment bro on behalf of Derek and on behalf of myself for having the sense to post here.
Post by: Serendipity on August 18, 2017, 03:48:02 AM
Not that any of that matters at all. Let's get this thread back on topic shall we? Talking about me is very flattering but it's not really about 'The Game'.
Must be nice to be able to post somewhere to talk about star citizen without having overzealous mods ban anyone who even breathes a word of criticism or discontent. I assume that's why you post here because you accept the echo-chamber circlejerk of the RSI forums and /r/starcitizen are completely inferior to this board. I, for one, thank you for that compliment bro on behalf of Derek and on behalf of myself for having the sense to post here.
The RSI forums are full of 'malcontents' that do little other than slam the company and their practices, seriously, I'm not sure which forums you're talking about but spectrum is loaded with a whole rainbow of emotions in relation to the project. I just post here because I enjoy it. I post on spectrum too and Reddit. I'm an equal opportunities internet denizen.
I wouldn't put word into Derek's mouth though, sarcastic or not, he's an internet warlord dontcha know!
End of September maybe?
Ha ha ha ha
and I thought you didn't have a sense of humour :lol:
October...?
Post by: helimoth on August 18, 2017, 05:04:38 AM
The RSI forums are full of 'malcontents' that do little other than slam the company and their practices, seriously, I'm not sure which forums you're talking about but spectrum is loaded with a whole rainbow of emotions in relation to the project. I just post here because I enjoy it. I post on spectrum too and Reddit. I'm an equal opportunities internet denizen.
Nope. The RSI forums are moderated to within an inch of their life. The only areas of malcontent that aren't immediately locked and poster banned are a tiny spectrum of specific complaints that RSI allows to give the impression of open and fair discussion. I'm surprised that you didn't manage to notice that.
Post by: dsmart on August 18, 2017, 05:33:04 AM
Definitely a man and a nice guy with a lovely wife and baby daughter. No marbles missing unless you think I'm mad for typing some words on a forum. University educated and not a kiddo. I like long walks on the beach, cooking, camping and music festivals. GSOH. Little overweight but working on it. I've always loved an argument as well, always have done. My parents would tell you I'm a massive wind up merchant. Never going to to obsessing about what others think of me, especially those I don't know on the tinterwebz.
Not that any of that matters at all. Let's get this thread back on topic shall we? Talking about me is very flattering but it's not really about 'The Game'.
OK that made me chuckle. :thumbsup:
Post by: dsmart on August 18, 2017, 05:36:19 AM
The RSI forums are full of 'malcontents' that do little other than slam the company and their practices, seriously, I'm not sure which forums you're talking about but spectrum is loaded with a whole rainbow of emotions in relation to the project. I just post here because I enjoy it. I post on spectrum too and Reddit. I'm an equal opportunities internet denizen.
Nope. The RSI forums are moderated to within an inch of their life. The only areas of malcontent that aren't immediately locked and poster banned are a tiny spectrum of specific complaints that RSI allows to give the impression of open and fair discussion. I'm surprised that you didn't manage to notice that.
Yeah, pretty much. And this has been proven time and time again. In all fairness, in the past weeks, a few of the more critical ones have been left untouched. I have found that usually, all it takes is for one moron to step out of line, thus giving the mods a reason (not that they needed one) to lock the thread. The Rule 9 locks are usually hilarious.
Also, I think they've caught on to the fact that /r/Starcitizen is getting more traffic than that abomination of a forum, and the more they get to be heavy-handed, the more the ire will flow to Reddit and outside of their enclave.
Post by: dsmart on August 18, 2017, 05:40:16 AM
End of September maybe?
Ha ha ha ha
and I thought you didn't have a sense of humour :lol:
October would be my guess, seeing as Sept is already knocking up on CitizenCon. But from what I'm hearing, that too is a very long shot. And unless they cut it and/or ship it with the pre-existing problems (serious hard locks, performance issues etc) like they did with 2.0, even Dec is tough.
They're between a rock and a hard place. They simply cannot release 3.0 in any condition now, and think it's going to be OK with backers. Especially since that whole "Chris is a perfectionist" bullshit went out the window a long time ago.
Post by: dsmart on August 18, 2017, 06:38:11 AM
(https://i.imgur.com/MARyPhE.jpg)
Uncharted - The Lost Legacy (https://www.unchartedthegame.com/en-us/games/uncharted-the-lost-legacy/?emcid=pa-ph-106652) screen shot:
(https://edge.alluremedia.com.au/m/k/2017/08/uncharted-the-lost-legacy.jpg)
Kotaku review (https://www.kotaku.com.au/2017/08/uncharted-the-lost-legacy-the-kotaku-review/)
LOL!! And Squadron 42 still hasn't even matched that.
Post by: dsmart on August 18, 2017, 06:53:27 AM
Post by: Serendipity on August 18, 2017, 10:40:50 PM
(http://cdn.mos.cms.futurecdn.net/127e7e3f6fa2a82e9a2f4d75d3f74a47-1200-80.jpg)
Hogwash.
Post by: N0mad on August 19, 2017, 12:52:33 AM
Squadron 42 hasn't matched that? Really? Hogwash.Yeah but once you stop looking at all the prerendered visuals and look in game.
What Cryengine can do:
(https://loopyrants.files.wordpress.com/2013/03/k2ofuh2.jpg)
StarEngine
(http://starcitizenbase.de/wp-content/uploads/2016/09/MR_August16_LA_MilesEckhart.jpg)
Well at least his coffee will now be rendered with fidelicious realistic fluid physics :lol:
Post by: dsmart on August 19, 2017, 05:04:21 AM
Well at least his coffee will now be rendered with fidelicious realistic fluid physics :lol:
LOL!! You beat me to it :D
Also...from 2015 (https://goo.gl/y4nk7e)
(https://i.ytimg.com/vi/Sx2JImzILNs/maxresdefault.jpg)
(https://static4.gamespot.com/uploads/original/1534/15343335/3156153-sq42.png)
(http://7images.cgames.de/images/idgwpgsgp/bdb/2664292/617x.jpg)
$156M!! :lol: :lol:
Post by: dsmart on August 19, 2017, 06:09:14 AM
Post by: dsmart on August 19, 2017, 06:58:51 AM
They went from this:
(https://robertsspaceindustries.com/media/4lhwc4bfz6te8r/source/300-High-Level-1.png)
To this:
(https://robertsspaceindustries.com/media/lybx56jxzlmp9r/source/170818_Production_Schedule_Update.jpg)
Report: https://robertsspaceindustries.com/schedule-report
Diff: https://www.diffchecker.com/IHZVKDdv
Quote
Completed: 1
Delayed: 5
Regressed: 0
New Tasks: 0
Remaining: 8
Needs bug-fixing: 24
Total In-progress: 32
Furthest ETA: TBD or Sept 6th (was TBD or Sept 1st)
This part is hilarious.
Quote
This week we have also moved the code onto its own 3.0 branch. “Branching” is when we copy the code from our main repository, where all the developers send their fixes and implementations at any time, to a separate “branch” and start looking more closely at what is changing, to make sure that any activity happening is absolutely necessary for our target build.
Meanwhile, over there (https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/comments/6ulcfm/300_and_global_progress_watch_update_20170818/), they don't understand what "branching" means, and that it has NOTHING to do with:
Quote
Now that they're isolated from the main branch, there should be way fewer new bugs happening, which will definitely help reducing the still impressive amount of bugs remaining for evocati release.
COMPLETED
Quote
- ENTITY OWNER MANAGER - Code Complete. This now allows the backend team to properly hook into this system.
DELAYED
Quote
- IMPROVED LIGHTING FOR FOG TECH - ETA
This work is still being estimated due to cross-discipline dependencies.
- MISSION GIVERS - ETA is 25th August
- VEHICLE CUSTOMIZER APP - ETA is 4th September (was 21st August)
During recent gameplay reviews with the directors, additional items of polish and general feature feedback has been recieved and incorporated into the scheudle to achieve the desired level of polish we require before releasing.
- SHIP SELECTOR APP & INSURANCE CLAIM - ETA is 29th August (Was 15th August)
During recent gameplay reviews with the directors, additional items of polish and general feature feedback has been recieved and incorporated into the scheudle to achieve the desired level of polish we require before releasing.
- COMMS SYSTEM UI - ETA is 6th September (was 25th August)
During recent gameplay reviews with the directors, additional items of polish and general feature feedback has been recieved and incorporated into the scheudle to achieve the desired level of polish we require before releasing.
OPEN
Quote
- MISSION GIVERS
- CHARACTER CUSTOMIZATION
- VEHICLE CUSTOMIZER APP
- SHIP SELECTOR APP & INSURANCE CLAIM
- COMMS SYSTEM UI
- MISSION SYSTEM
- ADDITIONAL SURFACE OUTPOSTS
- IMPROVED LIGHTING FOR FOG TECH
BUG FIXING
Quote
- INVENTORY SYSTEM SUPPORT
- INVENTORY SYSTEM
- ITEM 2.0 SHIP CONVERSION – PART 2
- INSURANCE
- DOORS AND AIRLOCKS
- CARGO
- CARGO MANIFEST APP
- KIOSK SUPPORT
- REPAIR
- HINT SYSTEM
- PERSONAL MANAGER APP
- MISSION MANAGER APP
- MISSION BOARD APP
- PHYSICS SERIALIZATION
- DRAKE DRAGONFLY
- RSI CONSTELLATION AQUILLA
- MISC PROSPECTOR
- ROVER AND DRAGONFLY IN SHIPS
- ITEM 2.0 MULTI FUNCTION DISPLAYS
- MOBIGLAS OVERHAUL
- RENDER TO TEXTURE
- RSI AURORA
- PLAYER MANNED TURRETS
- ENTITY OWNER MANAGER
Post by: dsmart on August 19, 2017, 07:13:39 AM
(https://i.imgur.com/mfFF3GA.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/AABxKyx.jpg)
Post by: NIDTechnology on August 19, 2017, 08:06:47 AM
I can't believe I didn't see this impending disaster for what it is. After following their nebulous production schedule in detail for months now, it's apparent. Even if they manage to Frankenstein together something in the coming year or two, all signs point to SC forever remaining an early access alpha; a titanic abortion in more practical terms.
Now I'm just following ongoing development out of morbid curiosity. :smugdog:
Post by: Karmic Cake on August 19, 2017, 09:06:34 AM
Please do go have a look at my reddit comments: https://www.reddit.com/user/ConfusedMonkeh/comments
ConfusedMonkeh? Weren't you banned here once already? (http://www.dereksmart.com/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=42)
Post by: dsmart on August 19, 2017, 09:57:58 AM
I want to apologize to you Derek, for giving you cheek all these years directly and indirectly across various platforms over this project.
I can't believe I didn't see this impending disaster for what it is. After following their nebulous production schedule in detail for months now, it's apparent. Even if they manage to Frankenstein together something in the coming year or two, all signs point to SC forever remaining an early access alpha; a titanic abortion in more practical terms.
Now I'm just following ongoing development out of morbid curiosity. :smugdog:
Nah man, it's all good. No apologies needed. We're all gamers, we're autistic and tend to engage in all manner of tomfoolery for whatever the "gaming cause of the moment" happens to be. It's in our DNA.
This is nuthin'. Once this shit-show is over, we'll be waiting for the next one. And here were thought we had peaked fighting over NMS. :laugh:
Post by: Motto on August 19, 2017, 04:48:52 PM
Best quote: Awesome I can't wait to give CIG some more money for all the promises that have fulfilled this year!!
Post by: NIDTechnology on August 19, 2017, 08:16:53 PM
Post by: dsmart on August 20, 2017, 04:35:51 AM
Make no mistake, the impending demos, promises and CGI montages will be spectacular. They need to be to stimulate the next round of ship sales. May burn existing fans who have put some time into following development and see the futility of the schedule, but the goal is to grow the whale farm overall. I still believe they can keep this train going for a couple more years until it derails. Perhaps siphon off $250+ million in total and spit out something akin to a really pretty but equally as shallow No man's sky with multiplayer tacked on from the get-go. Maybe even a severely scaled down version of SQ42.
There was a point where I believed that a group of whales would keep this shit-show going awhile longer. Not any more. 2017 has been a major tipping point. Even the 2K or so backers still giving them money, are probably going to bail, even if 3.0 is the Jesus Patch some think that it is.
I mean, consider that they are apparently going to have a $400 (!!) ship sale at GamesCom. :laugh:
Post by: Flashwit on August 20, 2017, 08:56:52 AM
This part is hilarious.QuoteThis week we have also moved the code onto its own 3.0 branch. “Branching” is when we copy the code from our main repository, where all the developers send their fixes and implementations at any time, to a separate “branch” and start looking more closely at what is changing, to make sure that any activity happening is absolutely necessary for our target build.
Wait a second, what? What kind of cowboy outfit is this? As a software developer myself I am blown away that they aren't using milestone branches as standard procedure 100% of the time. Are they just merging features directly into the master branch?
Post by: StanTheMan on August 20, 2017, 02:29:28 PM
This part is hilarious.QuoteThis week we have also moved the code onto its own 3.0 branch. “Branching” is when we copy the code from our main repository, where all the developers send their fixes and implementations at any time, to a separate “branch” and start looking more closely at what is changing, to make sure that any activity happening is absolutely necessary for our target build.
Wait a second, what? What kind of cowboy outfit is this? As a software developer myself I am blown away that they aren't using milestone branches as standard procedure 100% of the time. Are they just merging features directly into the master branch?
What they say they are doping and what they are actually doing ... two different things.... :snoop:
Post by: dsmart on August 21, 2017, 05:45:23 AM
This part is hilarious.QuoteThis week we have also moved the code onto its own 3.0 branch. “Branching” is when we copy the code from our main repository, where all the developers send their fixes and implementations at any time, to a separate “branch” and start looking more closely at what is changing, to make sure that any activity happening is absolutely necessary for our target build.
Wait a second, what? What kind of cowboy outfit is this? As a software developer myself I am blown away that they aren't using milestone branches as standard procedure 100% of the time. Are they just merging features directly into the master branch?
Yes, it's hilarious. I remember a few months ago when I said that "3.0 didn't exist" and some Shitizens were up in arms. This is precisely what that was about. They were still working on the 2.6.x code base, even as Croberts went up on stage and was touting "3.0 is coming on|before Dec 19th".
Post by: dsmart on August 21, 2017, 02:14:38 PM
Post by: Motto on August 21, 2017, 02:43:08 PM
Oh, it's a party by now. Dear God :vince:
So, how's that latest blog coming along? It's now 21-08-2017 23:40 overhere. Me's gettin' hungry :supaburn:
BTW, if there is any truth in the rumors about Sandi and Chris getting a divorce, do you think that's just for the record to get some money safely away from those backers who might want it back? Or is the love now dissolving since jailtime is imminent? Of both maybe?
Post by: dsmart on August 21, 2017, 03:02:04 PM
So, how's that latest blog coming along? It's now 21-08-2017 23:40 overhere. Me's gettin' hungry :supaburn:
BTW, if there is any truth in the rumors about Sandi and Chris getting a divorce, do you think that's just for the record to get some money safely away from those backers who might want it back. Or is the love now dissolving since jailtime is imminent? Of both maybe?
I actually decided to wait for after GamesCom to publish a new blog. That why I don't have to write another article.
As to the divorce, that their personal business, and we shouldn't care. The only reason that I even mentioned it is because of the nepotism that I had investigated and uncovered back in 2015, and for which I got attacked, called a liar etc. Until Chris himself confirmed it in his massive diatribe. So if it's true (according to public records, they have been married and divorced to each other, twice), then that's one count of nepotism out of the way. Divorced or not, they will ALL be held accountable when this shit-show collapses.
The main issue here is that a group of family and friends - a total of 9 people - under Chris Roberts, have been Unjustly Enriched from $156M given to them by backers, and for which, after 6 years, they have yet to deliver the promised products. Even as they continue to use scam tactics and lies to continue raising funds for a game they know they can't build as pitched back in 2012.
Post by: dsmart on August 21, 2017, 03:03:26 PM
They went from this:
(https://robertsspaceindustries.com/media/4lhwc4bfz6te8r/source/300-High-Level-1.png)
To this:
(https://robertsspaceindustries.com/media/lybx56jxzlmp9r/source/170818_Production_Schedule_Update.jpg)
And here we are on Aug 21st, and sources say that don't even have a fully playable 3.0 build. Which is why they are showing "levels" at GamesCom. It's hilarious. :vince:
Post by: Motto on August 21, 2017, 03:16:59 PM
Couldn't you just give us something? The main headlines, preferrably a little longer than a tweet. Something big that they can't deny afterwards. The suspense is killing me :magical: Please :allears: ? Pretty please :allears: ?
Oh, that 30 - 45 days, I'm guessing you're pretty sure about that to make a statement like that. Won't a supersale at Games Com spoil that prediction?
The Sandi thing is really pissing people off. They're forgetting she's not only his wife, but also number 2 in the company and getting al lot of backer money payed every year as salary for who knows what actually. Being the boss' wife probably. You might want to mention that.
Post by: helimoth on August 21, 2017, 03:25:37 PM
You thought the Star Citizen scam couldn't get any worse? It's no longer 2.6.3 (current build). It's now called "pre-patch 3.0" (https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=star+citizen+Pre-Patch+3.0)
a shame cos that streamer seems a legitimately very nice person. such a shame that sc/cig/cr have managed to ensnare some pretty cool people.
Post by: dsmart on August 21, 2017, 03:46:40 PM
Not writing anything now will give the Shitizens ammunition to say you actually don't have anything - as they of course knew - and you're writing in hindsight and therefore all is worthless and, well everYthing basicallY is hYperbole with You.
Couldn't you just give us something? The main headlines, preferrably a little longer than a tweet. Something big that they can't deny afterwards. The suspense is killing me :magical: Please :allears: ? Pretty please :allears: ?
Oh, that 30 - 45 days, I'm guessing you're pretty sure about that to make a statement like that. Won't a supersale at Games Com spoil that prediction?
I don't know what they're going on about tbh. It's as if they rely on me to give them insider news on a game they blew $156M on. Fact is, most of the stuff I say, tends to pan out at some point. The blog I wrote was to be published tomorrow, but that changed when they decided to do their presentation on Friday instead (https://robertsspaceindustries.com/comm-link/transmission/16061-Gamescom-2947-Details).
I already made clear, almost a year ago, that 3.0 wasn't ready, and didn't actually "exist". That's not even the half of it.
When the schedules kept slipping, sources told me there was an internal dev one that's not reflective of the public one, and that they were just making shit up, I told everyone to wait and see what comes next. Some just hand waved it away. Then CIG released a new schedule. Added a bunch of never-before-seen crap to it. Then removed the delivery aim dates completely. The reasons are now painfully obvious.
The ENTIRE project is in chaos, and there are several people leaving, even as I type this. And they are OUT of money in terms of the project being a "Going Concern".
Quite a few things will put some key sources at risk, but now that they're all talking (some to media), it's only a matter of time now before stuff starts getting out, as it always does.
I can 100% guarantee that nobody is prepared for what's really about to happen. You can bookmark this post.
Post by: dsmart on August 21, 2017, 03:53:31 PM
The Sandi thing is really pissing people off. They're forgetting she's not only his wife, but also number 2 in the company and getting al lot of backer money payed every year as salary for who knows what actually. Being the boss' wife probably. You might want to mention that.
That's their problem. They were pissed too, back when I revealed that she was his wife, and that they were covering it up. And when I wrote about it, complete with details, and even after other people did their own leg work, I got accused of stalking, harassment etc. But my attorney made quick work of Ortwin (http://dereksmart.com/bin/sc/15-10-02_Response_To_RSI_Cease_Desist.pdf) after he sent me a C&D. We never heard from them again.
As I posted elsewhere earlier today:
Quote
Precisely. There are many - many - businesses (mostly small businesses) which employ family members. The issue with CIG is that, using crowd-funded money, Croberts enriched his family and friends, most of whom are OVER PAID, in the furtherance of this scheme. There is a reason why “Unjust Enrichment” is a thing.
And aside from Erin, he did try to hide the fact that he was married to Sandi.
Of course, it wasn’t until I did my investigative blog that it came to light that all the people currently involved in the project, are the same same friends (excluding Ortwin) and family (excluding Sandi) who were involved in previous train-wrecks, namely that whole Gizmondo fiasco which I wrote about back in 20152.
Basically they are Roberts (all three), Elms (all three), Derek Senior, Tony Zurovek, Ortwin and others on the fringe like David Swofford (marketing), Eric Peterson (who bailed earlier on (https://www.engadget.com/2015/04/09/descent-underground-kickstarter-eric-peterson/)) who go all the way back to the early days with Croberts.
If you don’t think that’s shady enough, they even removed her “Meet Sandi Gardiner (https://robertsspaceindustries.com/comm-link/transmission/12913-Meet-Sandi-Gardiner)” entry from the website shortly after my expose. This is the last capture from March 2013 (https://web.archive.org/web/20140103222149/https://robertsspaceindustries.com/comm-link/transmission/12913-Meet-Sandi-Gardiner). And this was around the time she was going on interviews and claiming to have two degrees in marketing, so she was totally qualified to be VP Of Marketing for the project. All of which have proven to be false.
I don’t see how anyone thinks that if they had gone to VC for money, how any of this would have passed due diligence.
The nepotism is a big deal when it comes to money. From Sandi and Erin, all the way down. I have even written several times about specifically Erin and his pay. Nobody seems to be mad about that.
June 12, 2017 (http://dereksmart.com/forums/reply/5325/)
December 13, 2016 (http://dereksmart.com/forums/reply/5064/)
October 4, 2016 (http://dereksmart.com/forums/reply/4566)
Basically, using backer money, Chris built an entire studio for his brother. There is NO other reason for F42-UK to exist, when that team could have been based here in the US.
Post by: dsmart on August 21, 2017, 04:30:30 PM
Quote
It has been possible to deduce that the headline features shown since mid 2015 are standalone r&d tech. Caveats included in some of the dev videos (one of which I quoted twice in this thread relating to the planetside tech) further confirm this.
There is nothing from inside CIG or ex-CIG sources in the public domain regarding the reasons why modules developed by CIG and 3rd parties cannot be pulled into the PU - with the exception of Ilfonic's (canned) Star Marine work.
However these conversations HAVE happened in private and there are a fair number of folks within and around the industry with an insight into this, and with better knowledge and experience of game dev than someone like me could ever hope to have.
I had the opportunity to ask a CIG programmer why none of this stuff ever made it into the PU (among other questions), and if I posted the response without the swear words there wouldn't be much of it left.
It's straightforward enough to find out what's going on with this project behind the marketing and it won't become fully in the public domain until "it is 100% certain that Chris Roberts is never working in this industry again"
---
Also this post may be deleted as off topic which is fair enough, but Derek knows a hell of a lot more than he lets on and he isn't the only person.
If CIG are still asking for money it is BEYOND time that they need to come clean regarding the engine.
They had devs in 2016 who had become literally ill over all this, and they're doing the same thing at Gamescom they did last year and will scoop in millions.
If whales want to click a big donate button that's fine, but that's not what's going on - and those promoting the project by reposting marketing ought to make themselves aware of a few facts, because as far as myself and many others are concerned they're culpable.
Post by: Spunky Munkee on August 21, 2017, 06:44:32 PM
Post by: mezla1058 on August 21, 2017, 09:55:45 PM
I genuinely believe that the fallout from the SC/CIG collapse will be beyond anything we've seen in gaming so far.
I am predicting that one or more of the whales will full on murder Chris, Sandi, Erin and/or someone else publicly involved in the project once they realise that they've been scammed.
Some of those whales are out tens of thousands of dollars and unhinged enough, you have to be to put that much money into this scam, to actually go full on killing spree.
Remember NMS fiasco? Those people were out only 60 or so bucks and look at all the backlash.
Mark my words, bookmark this post, there will be deaths.
Post by: Spunky Munkee on August 21, 2017, 11:30:06 PM
Sandi, well some of those backers are "oh lala, we looovve you Sandi" I can almost see the spittle spewing from the corner of their mouths as they have little bubbles forming on their tongue. They sit in the basement in their crusty brown and yellow creased underwear mouse in one hand crumbs stuck to a dirty t shirt with some stains from last nights bean burrito clicking on their favorite part of the video fantasizing with them Sandi and big Ben in a trio of sweaty funky love. Yeah dey be lovin Sandi a long while, probably bought her videos, every one of them (is there more than one, who cares?). Just kidding We love you Sandi
Ethically the entire organization is highly suspect.
Post by: EmmettLazlo on August 22, 2017, 02:42:07 AM
There are some really unhinged "backers" who will simply lose their minds when their dream world evaporates.
They may well lose their minds but I think they'd just scapegoat (like many already are) and blame Derek for the entire collapse. That despite the fact that he , and I'm sure many of us here share the sentiment, has stated he would love to play the game CIG promised. We just know it's not going to happen.
Post by: helimoth on August 22, 2017, 02:47:11 AM
There are some really unhinged "backers" who will simply lose their minds when their dream world evaporates.
They may well lose their minds but I think they'd just scapegoat (like many already are) and blame Derek for the entire collapse. That despite the fact that he , and I'm sure many of us here share the sentiment, has stated he would love to play the game CIG promised. We just know it's not going to happen.
I agree. They'd need an 'out' in order to save face; nobody wants to admit they were very foolish with their money - especially if it's a rather large amount of money. I think there will still definitely be an angry, vocal section of the backer-base that does start baying for crobert's blood but that the majority will rabbit off something about Derek and trying to make a game nobody has ever made before etc etc. The real question is, once this whole thing is over and done with, will it be the last the gaming industry hears of croberts? :psyduck:
Post by: Motto on August 22, 2017, 02:55:56 AM
Post by: dsmart on August 22, 2017, 05:11:01 AM
There are some really unhinged "backers" who will simply lose their minds when their dream world evaporates.
They may well lose their minds but I think they'd just scapegoat (like many already are) and blame Derek for the entire collapse. That despite the fact that he , and I'm sure many of us here share the sentiment, has stated he would love to play the game CIG promised. We just know it's not going to happen.
Thing is, I don't have any reason to believe that they would blame me for the collapse; as that would be having to face the reality that one man (who they say is old, cranky, a failed inconsequential gamedev) was able to cause the destruction of a $156M+ project. It's as laughable as it sounds. But since most of the usual suspects are fucking morons, those guys probably would try to pin it on me. And Goons <---- :laugh:
Since July 2015 when I wrote that first blog saying that this problem was completely off-track when Croberts over-scoped it, I have been under siege by the usual suspects. But given my industry history and rep, I normally wouldn't take such a bold stance if I wasn't at least 90% certain that I was right. As time moved on, I got 100% convinced that I was right. And CIG keeps helping to prove that, each passing day.
The issue now is not when the final collapse will come; it's what form it will take. I still don't buy into the slow burn death spiral, as that's what I have already deemed to be the on-going E.L.E. I believe that it will be a singular event that's already in the works, and which I can't say much about.
Post by: dsmart on August 22, 2017, 09:38:25 AM
Post by: Mehlan on August 24, 2017, 11:54:52 PM
The various magazine were reporting Chris as stating that SQ42 was at 'Greybox or better'...
Now at Gamesonc 2017 Roberts is reported as saying 'They’re still working on final assets, but all the missions and chapters are blocked out. Each chapter would be several missions in say Wing Commander. They’re somewhere between white and grey boxes.'
https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/comments/6vrnxr/gamescom_day_2_live_show_notes_erin_chris_roberts/
So, according to Chris Sq42 has actually gone backwards in development over the last 10 months.
Post by: Spunky Munkee on August 25, 2017, 12:10:08 AM
Post by: dsmart on August 25, 2017, 04:39:53 AM
Hey, go find Chris comments on where SQ42 'stood' in 2016 and compare it to it's 'status' now according to Chris at GC 2017.
The various magazine were reporting Chris as stating that SQ42 was at 'Greybox or better'...
Now at Gamesonc 2017 Roberts is reported as saying 'They’re still working on final assets, but all the missions and chapters are blocked out. Each chapter would be several missions in say Wing Commander. They’re somewhere between white and grey boxes.'
https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/comments/6vrnxr/gamescom_day_2_live_show_notes_erin_chris_roberts/
So, according to Chris Sq42 has actually gone backwards in development over the last 10 months.
Or he was lying again. I'm going with that.
Post by: Mehlan on August 25, 2017, 06:09:55 AM
Either he lied, he has no clue wtf he's doing or both.
Of course I'm sure we're going to see something to the effect that he was 'mis-understood' again...
Post by: dsmart on August 26, 2017, 07:06:02 AM
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DIKT4QzWsAMfD94.jpg)
Report: https://robertsspaceindustries.com/schedule-report
Diff: https://www.diffchecker.com/2HwalFtY
Post by: CatEars on August 26, 2017, 08:50:55 AM
Post by: N0mad on August 26, 2017, 08:55:51 AM
Post by: Motto on August 26, 2017, 09:46:04 AM
Chris presented his own downfall yesterday. And he knows it.
Post by: Darklegend1 on August 26, 2017, 12:46:07 PM
Oh, and they quietly changed the schedule during GamesCom. Projected 3.0 release now Oct.
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DIKT4QzWsAMfD94.jpg)
Report: https://robertsspaceindustries.com/schedule-report
Diff: https://www.diffchecker.com/2HwalFtY
wtf according to the schedule they have been working on UI from start of schedule and from august to october they will be working on UI only ... has CIG gone mad!!!
take a look
https://robertsspaceindustries.com/media/aeasenll0bxtfr/source/300-High-Level.png (https://robertsspaceindustries.com/media/aeasenll0bxtfr/source/300-High-Level.png) :laugh:
They are milking backers high and dry and are not even being smart about their lies... :lol:
Post by: Motto on August 26, 2017, 01:20:12 PM
Post by: dsmart on August 31, 2017, 05:45:30 AM
Quote
That's not all, we all saw the performance issues which various sources had told me about, and which I'd discussed these past months. This Idris ship, is a frigate (which for some reason they're now calling a capital ship) class. Having seen the performance when even one of them is in a scene, let alone two, who here believes that they're ever going to be able to put in ships of this size in the game? Here, take a look a the ship chart (https://i.imgur.com/93DNjKJ.jpg) updated for GC2017 and be the judge. The Idris, which is missing btw, would be in the lower left under Aegis. You can see its size comparison in this ship cross-section (https://imgur.com/CEgnpS6.jpg) image.
(https://imgur.com/CEgnpS6.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/93DNjKJ.jpg)
Post by: Serendipity on August 31, 2017, 07:02:42 AM
(http://i.imgur.com/hszD19Q.png)
Post by: Backer42 on August 31, 2017, 07:16:59 AM
(http://imgur.com/Tj0IWUk.png)Left: mid 8th gen
Right: late 7th gen
Their game engine is 2011 material and it becomes really obvious now.
Post by: Serendipity on August 31, 2017, 07:19:22 AM
(http://cdn.mos.cms.futurecdn.net/127e7e3f6fa2a82e9a2f4d75d3f74a47-1200-80.jpg)
Post by: dsmart on August 31, 2017, 07:26:58 AM
Don't know about that, Mark looks pretty good here.
Show me WHERE in the "game", that appears. In real time. I'll wait.
We've seen a LOT of models and renderings of Miles Eckhart for over a year now. Then it appears live - again - in the game, and still looks like shit.
Explain.
Post by: Backer42 on August 31, 2017, 07:32:54 AM
Show me WHERE in the "game", that appears. In real time. I'll wait.It's obviously concept art, which was never rendered by CryEngine.
Can't wait until that "video game press" praises Star Citizen for its distinctive retro look, which has been "beautifully remastered" for 2022 release. :five:
Post by: Serendipity on August 31, 2017, 07:34:37 AM
Miles looks pretty good here.
(https://i.ytimg.com/vi/QTqjgy3efOY/hq720.jpg)
What about the render player faces on video screen technology they showed too? The pilot on screen in the other player's ship? That looked impressive and very cool
Post by: Backer42 on August 31, 2017, 07:43:18 AM
Even Mass Effect: Andromeda got laughed off the stage for falling behind in character animation. Star Citizen isn't an AAA game by any current standards. Only the budget is AAA.
Post by: N0mad on August 31, 2017, 07:45:07 AM
Star citizen 2017 ($156 million so far):
(http://i.imgur.com/3YJ8m4u.png)
Crysis 3 2013 ($66 million to make):
(https://gamewatcher-images.s3.amazonaws.com/image/file/6/6d/55096/3302.jpg)
Post by: dsmart on August 31, 2017, 07:45:30 AM
Miles looks pretty good here.
:lol: :lol:
Quote
What about the render player faces on video screen technology they showed too? The pilot on screen in the other player's ship? That looked impressive and very cool
It's a gimmick. Sure, some people care about it, and there's nothing wrong with that. I don't because it's bullshit, and a waste of time and resources which could have gone into actually finishing the fucking game, THEN adding shit to it.
Post by: Serendipity on August 31, 2017, 07:52:22 AM
Serendipity - We've had this discussion already and you lost. So here we are again:
Will Crysis 3 take that face and display it in my mate's ship? Will it animate in time with my face? Is that pre rendered cutscene of a finished game compared to a real time image captured off a stream of a game in alpha? Look at Marks face above if we're comparing cut scenes, not an image ripped off a stream of an in game alpha with face rig stuff happening live.
Post by: dsmart on August 31, 2017, 07:57:23 AM
Will Crysis 3 take that face and display it in my mate's ship? Will it animate in time with my face? Is that pre rendered cutscene of a finished game compared to a real time image captured off a stream of a game in alpha? Look at Marks face above if we're comparing cut scenes, not an image ripped off a stream of an in game alpha with face rig stuff happening live.
You've never played it, have you? Don't make me break out Farcry or Uncharted screen shots
(http://game-insider.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/crysis_3_-_psycho.png)
(http://media1.gameinformer.com/imagefeed/screenshots/Crysis3/01_jailbreak_1_intro.jpg)
(https://i.ytimg.com/vi/xqDbQD5Pa2c/maxresdefault.jpg)
Post by: N0mad on August 31, 2017, 08:03:36 AM
Will Crysis 3 take that face and display it in my mate's ship? Will it animate in time with my face? Is that pre rendered cutscene of a finished game compared to a real time image captured off a stream of a game in alpha? Look at Marks face above if we're comparing cut scenes, not an image ripped off a stream of an in game alpha with face rig stuff happening live.
Where to start ?...
Firstly you say "I'm not here to defend CIG blindly because I'm not an idiot or mentally ill", yet you seem fairly blind.
Secondly the SC image is using your much lauded face rig - concentrate on the detailing or, actually, the lack of it, and that's a player character model which you would expect to be high detail.
Lastly, as you might have realised by now, those Crysis screenshots are ALL IN GAME, using Cryengine and, most likely, an older generation rig.
Post by: Motto on August 31, 2017, 08:03:38 AM
Will Crysis 3 take that face and display it in my mate's ship? Will it animate in time with my face?
Will Scam Shitizen for that matter? They say they will, but they haven't shown it yet. They say a whole lot of things, but producing them, they can't. Gamescom 2017 made that painfully clear. That's most likely the reason the fanboys are in uproar. Too much of what Derek has been saying now is actually hitting very close to home...
Post by: Aya Reiko on August 31, 2017, 11:15:30 AM
Don't know about that, Mark looks pretty good here.
And tell me, in a space sim, just how is this even relevant when they clearly haven't got the core game mechanics locked down yet?
Answer; It's doesn't. It's a distraction to keep the remaining whales in line.
Post by: ecg on August 31, 2017, 11:35:42 AM
The guys from the show Mythbusters proved at one point - "you can polish a turd"
Post by: Motto on August 31, 2017, 12:00:49 PM
Post by: StanTheMan on August 31, 2017, 07:34:53 PM
The problem with that if he eventually produces something, it's expected to be very shiny. So whatever they release as 3.0 must be in tip-top shape. Otherwise, what have they been polishing all that time with all those people? And then people realise there wasn't much to polish to start with, so Chris lied. Now, what else might he have been lying about. And there it goes....
Yes but we have been here before.
He can churn out crap and plenty of Backers will lap it up like chocolate milk shake on a hot summers day.
Plenty will retch of course but CRoberts will be hoping it can ride that out but this cant go on forever.
Post by: dsmart on September 01, 2017, 10:15:03 AM
Quote
Quote-They found an animation glitch
-Fixed it by building a workaround ramp
-Which for unknown reasons made another 100% reproducible Glitch that nobody could figure out disappear
-They call it a happy accident and decide to show that to the backers as an example of bugfixing
If this really is how they work the 3.0 demo is amazingly stable.
It's also funny that it confirms the issue council bug tacker isn't actually used internally for tracking bugs, they use zendesk instead which explains why so many of the bug videos I found, even days after being logged, had 0 views on youtube.
Also they tracked the bug on zendesk, fixed it on zendesk and notice the comment at the bottom, someone went in and double checked all the fixed bugs to make sure they were resolved specifically for the gamescom build. Indicating they've been working on a specific build for gamecom for weeks/months, not a 3.0 build for release that will just happen to be shown at gamescom.
(http://i.imgur.com/ONgvv7M.png)
Post by: Backer42 on September 01, 2017, 10:17:45 AM
Quote
It's also funny that it confirms the issue council bug tacker isn't actually used internally for tracking bugs, they use zendesk instead which explains why so many of the bug videos I found, even days after being logged, had 0 views on youtube.Nothing public facing at CIG has anything to do with what happens internally. It's complete opaque with a 100 % PR shell.
Post by: the_wolfmann on September 01, 2017, 01:06:18 PM
The topic is: Test automation. I'll get the fact that I'm a software developer but not a game developer right out of the way. "I don't understand game development™" that much is clear and I won't insist that business software and game software should be done the same way. However, games are still a piece of software and can benefit from good practices that the software engineering field provides.
With both disclaimers out of the way... questions time:
- Do game engines allow unit testing of relatively simple pieces of code? As an example, maybe you want to test your physics related functions to see if for specific parameters they consistently return the same result. That way if someone accidentally breaks a calculation you'd expect to catch the error long before your character starts jittering uncontrollably during actual gameplay.
- Do we have any insider knowledge of CIG leveraging from such kind of quality control? I've seen them using JIRA screenshots excessively as of late to show that they have proper management of their feature's development (scoring them some "faith" points). JIRA lets you integrate build results that run after code changes /commits/ on a specific feature and can show the automated tests' results as passing or failing. However in any screenshots I've encountered the most information we could make out is that they're using source control branches and not much else.
If CIG can only depend on debugging code and manual QAs I fear they're in a bit of a worse pickle in the longer term (if they make it that far). I'm not bashing on manual QAs and bugsmashers, they're the unsung heroes in any kind of software project but there's only so much a human can do when a project gets more than a 100 or even thousands of features in it. Also it's quite a moral crush if you have to test the same features over and over and over just to make sure the last 3 lines of code that were changed didn't break something that was working years ago.
One can go on in much further details as to why automated testing with good coverage is all round beneficial and not a waste of time but the gist of it is already in this post. No need to post full blown chapters of books that cover the matter.
Post by: dsmart on September 01, 2017, 02:34:00 PM
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DIqzyB0WsAABMiR.jpg)
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DIqzzPXXoAQOYib.jpg)
Post by: helimoth on September 01, 2017, 02:41:05 PM
Post by: dsmart on September 01, 2017, 03:14:56 PM
I've been wondering ever since I started lurking about a year ago on one topic I feel has been left largely undiscussed. I consider it to be a tad bit more technical and that's probably why no one has picked it up yet - as it is a narrative that won't be understood by the general part of the SC audience. It might've had some traction in the past but lost momentum in which case I'd be grateful if you can point me to a place where it came to passing.
The topic is: Test automation. I'll get the fact that I'm a software developer but not a game developer right out of the way. "I don't understand game development™" that much is clear and I won't insist that business software and game software should be done the same way. However, games are still a piece of software and can benefit from good practices that the software engineering field provides.
With both disclaimers out of the way... questions time:
- Do game engines allow unit testing of relatively simple pieces of code? As an example, maybe you want to test your physics related functions to see if for specific parameters they consistently return the same result. That way if someone accidentally breaks a calculation you'd expect to catch the error long before your character starts jittering uncontrollably during actual gameplay.
- Do we have any insider knowledge of CIG leveraging from such kind of quality control? I've seen them using JIRA screenshots excessively as of late to show that they have proper management of their feature's development (scoring them some "faith" points). JIRA lets you integrate build results that run after code changes /commits/ on a specific feature and can show the automated tests' results as passing or failing. However in any screenshots I've encountered the most information we could make out is that they're using source control branches and not much else.
If CIG can only depend on debugging code and manual QAs I fear they're in a bit of a worse pickle in the longer term (if they make it that far). I'm not bashing on manual QAs and bugsmashers, they're the unsung heroes in any kind of software project but there's only so much a human can do when a project gets more than a 100 or even thousands of features in it. Also it's quite a moral crush if you have to test the same features over and over and over just to make sure the last 3 lines of code that were changed didn't break something that was working years ago.
One can go on in much further details as to why automated testing with good coverage is all round beneficial and not a waste of time but the gist of it is already in this post. No need to post full blown chapters of books that cover the matter.
Unit testing is used in gamedev for testing small bits of code. It's not called unit testing because that's a misnomer. e.g. in my case, to test vehicle physics, I would implement, then test it on a vehicle in an empty map. Once it's all good, it goes off to testing with different parameters for the various vehicles.
Aside from devs testing their own code, CIG does have a dedicated QA + playtest team. And they use Jira. We have no idea if they use Jira to generate/run build results.
Post by: dsmart on September 01, 2017, 03:15:30 PM
https://robertsspaceindustries.com/schedule-report
(https://robertsspaceindustries.com/media/sqsr2stj842c2r/source/Remainingfix_090117_2.jpg)
Post by: Backer42 on September 01, 2017, 03:37:08 PM
The topic is: Test automation. I'll get the fact that I'm a software developer but not a game developer right out of the way. "I don't understand game development™" that much is clear and I won't insist that business software and game software should be done the same way. However, games are still a piece of software and can benefit from good practices that the software engineering field provides.My impression is that game development has the worst standards of software engineering. Which is understandable. Video games are not "mission-critical". If your product crashes, at most someone gets upset, but no planes fall out of the sky and no million-dollar factory stops manufacturing. OTOH "pushing the limits" (esp. performance) is key, so having correct programs without "hacky" shortcuts is less of a priority.
Talent-wise I see some negative selection bias due to the working conditions in the industry. Everyone who can applies elsewhere, only doing grunt coding work at EA & Co as a last resort. The only people who seem to get actually paid well are the voice-actors for some reason.
In the end it all boils down to cost: proper QA costs money, while the video game media don't care much about software quality. Fancy graphics are more important. Star Citizen is a perfect example.
Post by: Serendipity on September 01, 2017, 04:26:27 PM
I'm intrigued.
Post by: Aya Reiko on September 01, 2017, 11:04:26 PM
So what do we think CR's, 'dont show the loading screen', was about? What could possibly have been unshowable on a convention only build, loading screen?Because the whole thing was a CryEngine level and not representative of 3.0 or any build of SC. Showing the loading screen would've tipped everyone off.
I'm intrigued.
Post by: Motto on September 01, 2017, 11:04:53 PM
Post by: Kyrt on September 02, 2017, 01:01:43 AM
I can't show you Squadron 42 because it isn't finished yet. You know this. If you can wait until Citizencon, then apparently we should get to see a lot of Squadron information. You probably also know this too.
We were supposed to get a lot of S42 info last year as well. As I is, if the S42 ingame graphics are as good as that picture, then that'll be great.
HOWEVER - while you might think Miles looks "pretty good", IMO that would have been correct 3 or 4 years ago. Right now? Today? Compared with other games? He's getting to the point of "average". And lets not go in to the player models. Maybe I'm spoiled...
I will grant that the Idris landing did give a "WoW" factor. And I liked how the planets/moons looked. But quality wise, the characters and ships weren't special IMO and the inevitable glitches and bugs only emphasised that. The jerkiness also raises the question as to whether the current level of detailing is sustainable or if optimisation will be enough - I would assume those PCs running the demos were fairly powerful and they still struggled at times.
Quote
What about the render player faces on video screen technology they showed too? The pilot on screen in the other player's ship? That looked impressive and very cool
I think that was the point - it SOUNDS impressive. But it's also technology that has been in used since 2012. And lets be honest here...the technology demo here was NOT kind to FOIP. The character models are not detailed enough or flexible to get away with it. It was technically impressive but those gormless grins were ugly and only emphasised how artificial the entire system is.
That's also ignoring the fact that while it has the potential to be impressive, right now it simply underlines that CIG are working on cosmetic features that have no impact on gameplay or immersion and have done so without having implemented a finished game engine or netcode. CIG are going to look incredibly stupid if they have to cancel this because their netcode isn't up to the challenge.
And it might not...CIG is already spending bandwidth like water and not everyone has a gigabit link. Good quality VOIP alone would be a challenge for some players but CR also touted a VOIP system for in game communication. All that on top of his "1000 player instances" and now FOIP.
Maybe I'm getting it mixed up, but I would have assumed that getting a working engine and netcode into play would be of prime importance. That way you have some idea of what your engine can do. I understand the idea of setting the limits high and then designing the engine around that, but aiming high can't get around physical limits. There is only so much that can be done...only so much bandwidth available, only so many CPU cycles.
I've disagreed with Derek Smart plenty in the past. And I think he is too invested in seeing himself right. I've objected to the use of the word "scam" for example because that implies a degree of dishonesty which I do not believe is present. I think CIG are working hard to make the BDSSE.
BUT - just because I don't believe it is a scam doesn't mean I don't think that CIG are skewing the development priorities to maximise their current money flow. Hence, the focus is more on pushing ship sales and hyping up cosmetic features and technologies rather than game development.
I have no objection to FOIP and VOIP in principle. BUT - the engine and netcode SHOULD take precedence. Even if you wanted to build in the hooks for such technologies now, these are the type of features that should be hyped up and finalised in the Beta phase. Not the pre-Alpha. Certainly not before the netcode is in place and you have an idea of how much bandwidth you have to play around with.
But the FOIP right now is not impressive and merely underlined how much work CIG still have to do on their models. You might think it impressive but all I could think of when watching the stream was how UGLY and old those models looked.
To put it in prespective...as far as I can see, CIG worked on FOIP when they still don't have their game engine finalised. Still don't have the netcode in place. Still don't know what their bandwidths needs for gameplay will be. Still need to finalise their instancing technology. Still need work on the flight engine - what they showed last week didn't look great. What they appear to be doing is pre-Alpha, Alpha and Beta development at the same time. Working on the engine, ingame assets and game mechanics, alongside cosmetic features and then going back to rework everything when something fundamental changes.
Post by: the_wolfmann on September 02, 2017, 02:44:35 AM
My impression is that game development has the worst standards of software engineering. Which is understandable. Video games are not "mission-critical". If your product crashes, at most someone gets upset, but no planes fall out of the sky and no million-dollar factory stops manufacturing. OTOH "pushing the limits" (esp. performance) is key, so having correct programs without "hacky" shortcuts is less of a priority.
Talent-wise I see some negative selection bias due to the working conditions in the industry. Everyone who can applies elsewhere, only doing grunt coding work at EA & Co as a last resort. The only people who seem to get actually paid well are the voice-actors for some reason.
In the end it all boils down to cost: proper QA costs money, while the video game media don't care much about software quality. Fancy graphics are more important. Star Citizen is a perfect example.
Thank you and Dr. Smart for your replies. I had a running suspicion that it would be considered a "waste" to allocate resources for code-based testing in the gaming industry. However, the smart choice for a project like Star Citizen which touts to be a 10-year running MMO with constant updates is to not cut corners on practices that will help them out in the long term. This to me means that if there ever is going to be a game (which I'm most sure there won't) it will be a crappy bug fest after each subsequent patch up to a point where updating becomes impossible. Heck, even right now the project exhibits troubling signs that it has entered "maintenance" mode due to it severe technical debt accrued over the hefty CryEngine core rewrite and Lumberyard switch. But I digress, better have the fanciest graphics this side of the 'verse than have an actual stable and fun to play game, right?
Post by: FredBloggs on September 02, 2017, 03:26:29 AM
There's a new game out that would appeal to Star Citizens:
https://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2017/09/01/cultist-simulator-kickstarter/
Post by: dsmart on September 02, 2017, 04:41:58 AM
So what do we think CR's, 'dont show the loading screen', was about? What could possibly have been unshowable on a convention only build, loading screen?
I'm intrigued.
Why don't you ask the guy we gave $160M to? It's interesting how nobody on Reddit or Spectrum is asking this question. I've reached out to one of my sources who should know. I will post when I hear back.
But my money is on the fact that they were running a special GC2017 build (http://www.dereksmart.com/forum/index.php?topic=29.msg3469#msg3469) which doesn't have the normal loading screen that backers would recognize. In fact, it was already proven that they did in fact have a specific build at GC2017. So it could be that it was just a standard hacked CryEngine level like what they were streaming during the show, and not the whole 3.0 build. Which explains why they didn't want to show the loading screen, you can start from Levski etc.
It's curious to me that they didn't start from Olisar, get a ship, fly to Levksi, then start the mission there.
Post by: helimoth on September 02, 2017, 04:44:39 AM
Post by: dsmart on September 02, 2017, 04:46:15 AM
I've disagreed with Derek Smart plenty in the past. And I think he is too invested in seeing himself right. I've objected to the use of the word "scam" for example because that implies a degree of dishonesty which I do not believe is present. I think CIG are working hard to make the BDSSE.
BUT - just because I don't believe it is a scam doesn't mean I don't think that CIG are skewing the development priorities to maximise their current money flow. Hence, the focus is more on pushing ship sales and hyping up cosmetic features and technologies rather than game development.
Right. But that's what makes it a scam. :smug:
Also, dishonesty, as you know, comes in all forms. Yes, they've been dishonest. That being the case, how far a stretch is it for them to have been dishonest to the point of encroaching on activities which give rise to it being a scam? This is why in all legal cases, attorneys tend to look for things like prior conduct, past actions etc in order to establish a pattern that points to the accused being capable of doing/saying what they were accused of.
I stand by my opinion that they're actively running a scam. And I know, without reservation, that it will all come to light soon enough.
Post by: Kyrt on September 02, 2017, 05:18:59 AM
Right. But that's what makes it a scam. :smug:
They are taking money, in the form of pre-orders, and using that money to develop a game.
You can argue that they are being "dishonest" to be the point of scamming people, but then a lot of what they are doing is simple marketing and PR.
The key point for me is first - are they developing a game? and second - will the game be released?
I think progress on the game is slow. But from what you and others have said, that seems more due to negligence and incompetence on the part of certain members of CIG. We have feature creep, and changed specifications. We have the choice of an engine that strikes me as totally unsuited for the game they want and which required and requires so much modification that they may as well have taken the smart route and just developed their own engine from the start - just like Hello Games did. We have years of work which were thrown out because of "communications issues" between CIG and third party developers.
I don't see any need to attribute to criminality what can be explained away by incompetence and bad management. It means that yes - technically the game has been in development since 2011. Six years now - yes, I DO count that year of pre-production as part of the timescale. But that six years is only equivalent to what? 2.5 or 3 years development at other firms because of everything that "went wrong"
Do I like that CIG appear to be focussing on ship sales and overhyping "new technologies" such as Render to Textures of FOIP? No. I think it a waste of time this early. But given CIGs chosen funding model, I can see why they do it. I don't like it, but I can understand it.
Having said that, there does come a time when CIG will have to put up...and with all the promises they have made, that time is 3.0. Even discounting them a couple of years of active development, CIG need to show progress towards an actual game. 3.0 needs to show some major evolution. They cannot keep tinkering with the game engine or flight model. We need actual gameplay. The engine should have been finished ages ago and the flight model one of the first things completed in Alpha.
But do I think CIG are demonstrating the degree of criminality needed for a scam? No. But I think the focus on raising money via ship sales and the like IS partially responsible for the slow development. You can argue that they are being dishonest, but a lot of that is marketing and PR and expected. Their funding model requires a degree of hype to keep the money rolling in but salesmanship isn't (necessarily) fraud or scamming. If people at CIG were taking money for a game they knew could not be completed...then yes, but I don't see any evidence of that. Incompetence and bad management for sure...but criminality?
Do I believe CIG are working hard on the game? Yes.
Do I believe it will be released? I think they'll try...but I don't know if they will.
Do I think CR is to blame for many of the issues? Yes.
Post by: Serendipity on September 02, 2017, 05:26:10 AM
https://robertsspaceindustries.com/spectrum/community/SC/forum/3/thread/why-did-chris-not-want-the-loading-screen-shown-af
Post by: N0mad on September 02, 2017, 06:19:45 AM
But do I think CIG are demonstrating the degree of criminality needed for a scam? No. But I think the focus on raising money via ship sales and the like IS partially responsible for the slow development. You can argue that they are being dishonest, but a lot of that is marketing and PR and expected.
Strictly speaking whether this project is labelled a scam / fraud will be decided after the fact: either on game release (= no), or after the collapse when the actual truth emerges (= whatever the lawyers decide it is - I'm not a lawyer by the way) - and we can still all express our own opinion before either of these events happen.
So ask yourself this: will the game ever be released before CIG run out of cash? (seems likely) and if so, and the company collapses, will they end up being to taken to court by angry backers who want their money back accusing them of mismanagement and fraud? (very yes)
Post by: Kyrt on September 02, 2017, 06:21:41 AM
Spectrum will know...
https://robertsspaceindustries.com/spectrum/community/SC/forum/3/thread/why-did-chris-not-want-the-loading-screen-shown-af
Why? The only people who would know why Chris wanted the loading screen hidden is Chris, and possibly anyone in the hall who might have seen the screen and been able to read it while he was telling people to hide it.
The problem is that the only times CR seemed to want stuff hidden like that is when things were going bad. When the players gun started glitching for example, he was told to remove it. So the suspicion that there was something on the loading screen that we were not supposed to see is very strong.
What would normally be on a loading screen? A pretty picture. Version information. Copyright info.
We saw a bit of a pretty picture. But we saw nothing about why CR was so insistent that the loading screen be swapped out. You could argue that they didn't want it known that it was a special build for Gamescom but I think everyone knew that already and CR essentially admitted as such when he started.
Post by: Kyrt on September 02, 2017, 06:32:13 AM
So ask yourself this: will the game ever be released before CIG run out of cash? (seems likely) and if so, and the company collapses, will they end up being to taken to court by angry backers who want their money back accusing them of mismanagement and fraud? (very yes)
Unless funding via ship sales and the like collapses - possible - I think it likely that CIG will release a game by 2021. Whether they'll have enough for a good launch after that and to provide servers and so on? Who knows. Someone suggested an "optional " subscription akin to what they have now but I can't see how that could work without the game becoming "pay to win". OTOH, they may decide they don't need a massive marketing campaign...they've already sold a million copies or so ;)
Will they end up being taken to court? That depends on a number of factors. But I doubt anyone will get their money back if they do.
But - mismanagement? Yes...I can see a case. Fraud? Players are being told they are giving money to help develop the game, that the expanded scope means substantial delays, and even that despite what they expect, CIG may release a MVP version and build from there. The funding model of ship sales doesn't seem particularly geared towards fast development but CIG do appear to be developing the game. Slower than I would like but they are developing it. And the toolkits. And the engine. And the worlds. I disagree with their practises and priorities, some of which seem particularly wasteful, but again, that doesn't strike me as fraudulent or a "scam".
Post by: Motto on September 02, 2017, 06:47:33 AM
Post by: dsmart on September 02, 2017, 06:51:05 AM
Right. But that's what makes it a scam. :smug:
They are taking money, in the form of pre-orders, and using that money to develop a game.
You can argue that they are being "dishonest" to be the point of scamming people, but then a lot of what they are doing is simple marketing and PR.
The key point for me is first - are they developing a game? and second - will the game be released?
Nobody is disputing the fact that they are attempting to build a game. We've had this discussion before. ENTIRE companies with worldwide offices pretending to be working on, or actually working on, a project have been shut down after being found to be engaged in scammy tactics and/or fraud. It does NOT matter that they are trying to build a game. That's not - and never was - the argument.
This whole crux of the "scam" part is due to things such as :
- the ToS changes skewed in their favor and which takes away backer rights
- the walkback of promises AFTER getting backer money
- the fundraising tactics which they've been derided time and time again - consistently (even as recently as the 600i debacle)
- the deceptive practices (e.g. R&D demos designed to mislead backers into thinking progress is being made) routinely used to mislead backers
- the deceptive practices - and LIES - designed to mislead backers about the TRUE state of the project
Taking money from backers to do one thing, then using it for another, including personal gain (aka Unjust Enrichment) is the cornerstone of scams.
There's more where that came from. So when I use the word "scam", I don't use it lightly. You want to see examples of scams? Look no further than the FTC site listings (https://www.consumer.ftc.gov/scam-alerts). They come in all shapes and sizes.
Post by: dsmart on September 02, 2017, 06:52:24 AM
Spectrum will know...
https://robertsspaceindustries.com/spectrum/community/SC/forum/3/thread/why-did-chris-not-want-the-loading-screen-shown-af
They don't know shit. As usual.
Post by: dsmart on September 02, 2017, 07:01:58 AM
Spectrum will know...
https://robertsspaceindustries.com/spectrum/community/SC/forum/3/thread/why-did-chris-not-want-the-loading-screen-shown-af
Why? The only people who would know why Chris wanted the loading screen hidden is Chris, and possibly anyone in the hall who might have seen the screen and been able to read it while he was telling people to hide it.
The problem is that the only times CR seemed to want stuff hidden like that is when things were going bad. When the players gun started glitching for example, he was told to remove it. So the suspicion that there was something on the loading screen that we were not supposed to see is very strong.
What would normally be on a loading screen? A pretty picture. Version information. Copyright info.
We saw a bit of a pretty picture. But we saw nothing about why CR was so insistent that the loading screen be swapped out. You could argue that they didn't want it known that it was a special build for Gamescom but I think everyone knew that already and CR essentially admitted as such when he started.
No, he didn't. He said he was going to play 3.0 live. He never said anything about it being a "special" build for GC2017.
This is what Lando said: FF to 17:16
This is what Chris said: FF to 07:31
Post by: dsmart on September 02, 2017, 07:06:35 AM
Chris knows he can't make the game as he promised it. Yet he took money based on those promises. Now he continues to ask for money by referring to those promises in the full knowledge that he can't keep them. That's fraud. Plain and simple.
It is. But few either don't actually understand the implications, nor how that works, or they're just in denial and/or towing the official company line.
Post by: dsmart on September 02, 2017, 08:30:44 AM
As he pointed out, they removed the majority of all descriptions, as well as the "completed" and "bug fixing" status descriptors. That, and the fact that they have now started removing things, goes back to what I have written about that 3.0 isn't ready (sources says it needs +6 months, and that was back in July) and that they are going to end up releasing "something" in the short term, and branding it as 3.0. But don't worry though, everything is fine.
Schedule Report: https://robertsspaceindustries.com/schedule-report
Diff: https://www.diffchecker.com/y7JlgDfo
Quote
quote:
Completed: 0
Delayed: 5
Regressed: 0
New Tasks: 1
Removed From 3.0: 1
Remaining: 8
Needs bug-fixing: 24
Total In-progress: 32
Quote
quote:
Our Gamescom team is back from a successful showing of Star Citizen in Cologne. Thousands of people got to experience one of the moons of Alpha 3.0 firsthand in our show floor booth and many also got a chance to see more at the Gloria Theater in downtown Cologne Friday night. Essentially those attendees at the show were our first external “testers” for 3.0 and while they were busy having fun flying and adventuring around the new areas of Star Citizen, they also helped us identify more bugs in the game as we continue efforts to bring 3.0 to its live launch. As a result of all the “play testing” at Gamescom, our bug count has taken an upward swing this week as more issues were discovered during the demos in our booth. Last week the must-fix issues totaled 68 and this week saw a jump up to 94. While that seems like a large increase, it is very much a part of the burn-down process in game development. Also these bugs were discovered much quicker due to the sheer numbers of players who came through our booth (2,000 +). The process also showed us that the build isn’t quite ready for a wider test, just yet. Since Gamescom, the SC team has been hard at work to bring those numbers to a level where we can “go wider” with the Evocati, the PTU and the entire player base.
One other news of note. This week, we’ll be pulling down the various project timelines on our weekly dev schedule as our bug burn down numbers become even more critical to our launch and are much more of a driving force in our ultimate goal: getting 3.0 in your hands.
DELAYED
Quote
MISSION GIVERS - ETA is 8th September (was 25th August)
SHIP SELECTOR APP & INSURANCE CLAIM - ETA is 4th September (was 29th August)
The date has moved out slighty due to extra debugging and support.
COMMS SYSTEM UI - ETA is 6th September
We are adding the initial implementation of the Comms System in to 3.0.0 which will allow players to hail in order to request landing while at the various space stations in the PU.
During recent gameplay reviews with the directors, additional items of polish and general feature feedback has been received and incorporated into the schedule to achieve the desired level of polish we require before releasing.
MISSION SYSTEM - [No change but from the comments seems likely o be delayed]
Progress on this feature is currently under Director review. Any feedback received from this review that could result in further work will be evaluated and estimated.
NEW
Quote
COCKPIT EXPERIENCE - ETA is 5th September
The Cockpit Experience sprint team focused on improving the overall player experience in the cockpit by refining the cockpit geometry, character placement, g-force/hit reactions, VFX, Audio, UI, as well as code support for things like camera shaking and hooking into ship health systems to display proper damage.
REMOVED FROM 3.0
Quote
IMPROVED LIGHTING FOR FOG TECH - TBD Removed
We have started the task of relighting all the environments and ships to incorporate this new feature. However, due to the volume of work, it is likely to be an ongoing process and extend beyond 3.0.0, so we will relight everything we can up to the live release and then address whatever remains in a future patch.
OPEN
Quote
- MISSION GIVERS
- CHARACTER CUSTOMIZATION
- VEHICLE CUSTOMIZER APP
- SHIP SELECTOR APP & INSURANCE CLAIM
- COMMS SYSTEM UI
- MISSION SYSTEM
- ADDITIONAL SURFACE OUTPOSTS
- COCKPIT EXPERIENCE
NEEDS FIXING
Quote
- INVENTORY SYSTEM SUPPORT
- INVENTORY SYSTEM
- ITEM 2.0 SHIP CONVERSION – PART 2
- INSURANCE
- DOORS AND AIRLOCKS
- CARGO
- CARGO MANIFEST APP
- KIOSK SUPPORT
- REPAIR
- HINT SYSTEM
- PERSONAL MANAGER APP
- MISSION MANAGER APP
- MISSION BOARD APP
- PHYSICS SERIALIZATION
- DRAKE DRAGONFLY
- RSI CONSTELLATION AQUILLA
- MISC PROSPECTOR
- ROVER AND DRAGONFLY IN SHIPS
- ITEM 2.0 MULTI FUNCTION DISPLAYS
- MOBIGLAS OVERHAUL
- RENDER TO TEXTURE
- RSI AURORA
- PLAYER MANNED TURRETS
- ENTITY OWNER MANAGER
Post by: Motto on September 02, 2017, 10:16:35 AM
Post by: helimoth on September 02, 2017, 01:51:09 PM
I haven't read quite so much bullshit put together in a long time. Notice how they try to use project management terms and techniques as proof of how professional they are?
haha yeah and then that 'technical' term is all you hear the shitizens parrot for the next few months so that they can try to sound knowledgeable too. I think I saw one thread where CIG were using code refactoring (of all things) to try to explain away a delay and for the next few days I saw that term used so much. :rolleyes:
I heard that croberts in fact just spins the CIG 'Excuse Wheel' (Ver 2.6.3) whenever he needs to explain away a delay
(https://i.gyazo.com/9672621beab4f2a1c34c9228b0a54bc5.png)
Post by: nightfire on September 03, 2017, 05:29:53 AM
Really looking forward to 3.0 now. Should be amazing.
:laugh:
Post by: Motto on September 03, 2017, 05:35:15 AM
Note that he pobably meant the actual released 3.0 build. Although I think that release will be as amazingly bad as the GC17 demo.
Post by: nightfire on September 03, 2017, 07:32:09 AM
Note that he pobably meant the actual released 3.0 build. Although I think that release will be as amazingly bad as the GC17 demo.
Yes, we always have to keep in mind that 3.0 ≠ 3.0 ≠ 3.0! As the years go by, this tends to be forgotten.
- The original, genuine, mammoth 3.0, the real deal everyone was looking forward to in 2016 (or was it 2015)… you know, the Jesus Patch and New Netcode Implementation – that Mother Of All Updates was already something entirely different to begin with.
- The watered down 3.0 promised this year was like a 1:10 dilution of the original.
- Then they stripped down and delayed more features in the months and weeks before GC, resulting in further dilution.
Post by: dsmart on September 03, 2017, 07:41:12 AM
Post by: Motto on September 03, 2017, 07:53:44 AM
Post by: Spunky Munkee on September 03, 2017, 12:24:26 PM
I would laugh my ass off. I wonder if the term MVP could mean a buggy partially done 3.0 and that because the term is so nebulous that legally Roberts could claim it is the final version?
So long as Roberts powers up his PC for 10 minutes a day he could say he was "working on it".
Post by: dsmart on September 03, 2017, 02:01:10 PM
So I was bored and wanted to see how easily I could make an accurate Croberts transcription from Youtube's auto-caption system.
Here's Chris detailing the state of SQ42 just before leaving for the Imaginarium mocap shoot, 2 years 4 months and 28 days ago.
That's a crazy read considering that's nearly two and a half years ago. It's been a long time since CR mentioned kickstarter tiers too.
Would be a shame if that transcript were to be posted to reddit, as a reminder of what everyone paid for and what was coming in 2016.
70 SQ42 missions coming in 2015!
Quote
So here is my 10 for the chairman questions. I'd like to say that this is probably going to be the last 10 for the chairman that you get from me for a while because I'm getting on a plane. This is... we're shooting this on Friday for Monday airing but I'm actually flying on Monday to the UK where I'm going to be working hard on the performance capture sessions for squadron 42 which is very cool. Hannis and myself are going to be working with all the actors and setting up all the scenes for squadron 42. We've got some... we're gonna have a pretty awesome cast. We're not going to share it yet it's going to be something that we'll reveal closer to the day but I think you guys will be both impressed and happy. Stories for Squadron 42 is shaping up really well. I think we haven't shared in detail, later on we were... we will share it but essentially you know we've got a really big sort of story arc so we're going to split it into a trilogy, so you know Wing Commander one, two, three, that kind of thing.
So episode one is what people will play this year and that's the one that has seven... the equivalent of 70 Wing Commander style missions and it's formulated a little differently than say the old Wing Commander because the Wing Commander it was like you flew a space mission and then you're aboard the ship and had some conversation, you flew another space mission. Whereas in squadron 42 you can fly a space mission and then land, get out, get into a firefight with some pirates then chase another pirate, he gets into a ship and takes off, you get into a ship and chase him, so you know in the old sort of Wing Commander format that's actually three missions but it's all sort of one fluid thing that happens. There'll be three sort of checkpoints so to speak of in squadron 42 for those kind of things, but it would sort of all be one overall mission.
So we're sort of thinking it's like 20, I think it's 21 chapters or so, and each chapter sort of is a segment of missions that's sort of a kind of fluid, so they sort of do this and then maybe you'll stop and be talking around and dealing with people and get into some action and then it sort of goes on like that.
So it's the equivalent of about 70 missions Wing Commander style. I think we think is about 20 hours of gameplay. It's pretty damn cool like I said, we're gonna have some we have an awesome cast and then you'll be spending time with them for the next.
So episode 2 is behind enemy lines which I think everyone that backed until like six million gets for free, and then episode three would be the year after that. So we're sort of thinking that we'll have each one of these each one of them is the equivalent of a huge triple A, you know Call of Duty or better because I mean we've got a much bigger campaign and it's cool and
So anyway I'm starting there. I'm going to shoot that. We're working you know really hard the UK guys heads down and we've got a whole bunch of other people in the German offices helping a lot on squadron 42 and other areas of... So Illfonic a lot of the FPS mechanics will go into squadron 42 stuff that we're doing for space here in L.A. is going into it and you know some of the you know animation and other aspects are also happening in austin for squadron 42.
So it's gonna be pretty cool but I'm going to be in the UK for the next almost three months. So basically we're starting shooting a couple of weeks from now but I've got to do prep also spend time with foundry 42 and then we'll shoot all the way through to about the end of June and will also be also doing some more motion capture and stuff like that and so but it's going to be fun. I'm really excited it's going to be you know cinematic great lots of movement so everyone that's a Wing Commander fan and wants the next generation Wing Commander I think is going to be very very happy with squadron 42 and what you'll get to play this year and then you'll have stuff to look forward to the next few years while we're busily finishing out the game which is you know something that we're going to be doing next year in terms of the persistent universe and all the rest of stuff.
So I think the idea is really just to sort of keep on building the universe and the world and also be releasing narrative stories for you to play and eventually we'll also be doing ones that aren't so, sort of, military focused like squadron 42. Maybe a sort of more kind of rogue Han Solo style story and stuff like that. This one's a pretty awesome, it's a pretty, pretty big storyline. Don't want to get into too much details but it's sort of the overall story arc was what the writer from sci-fi was referring to, who shouldn't have actually written down the article because I told her not to, but she seemed to forget that part but anyway. It's the overall arc of... That's why there's Behind Enemy Lines, it's the second episode. Anyway, enough of that, on to the questions.
Post by: Motto on September 03, 2017, 02:18:13 PM
Would be a shame if that transcript were to be posted to reddit, as a reminder of what everyone paid for and what was coming in 2016.
You mean this thread? (https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/comments/6xvv2i/the_state_of_sq42_2_years_4_months_and_28_days_ago/) :smuggo:
EDIT: WAUW, one of the first comments: Just because cultists don't like the facts and downvote him, doesn't make him wrong.
EDIT 2: Now that comment is gone again? Strange. Oh, do look in the comments please? Some guy suggested I'd wank on replies or something, so I replied to him. That comment might have been a little trolling. There can be quite some fun to be had by just taking everything literally :D
Post by: StanTheMan on September 03, 2017, 02:32:02 PM
Note that he pobably meant the actual released 3.0 build. Although I think that release will be as amazingly bad as the GC17 demo.
Yes, we always have to keep in mind that 3.0 ≠ 3.0 ≠ 3.0! As the years go by, this tends to be forgotten.What will happen between now and when they actually release something under the disguise of 3.0, is anyone’s guess. However, according to the theory of homeopathy, the potency of the game will increase with each dilution. So, prepare for the worst… er, best!
- The original, genuine, mammoth 3.0, the real deal everyone was looking forward to in 2016 (or was it 2015)… you know, the Jesus Patch and New Netcode Implementation – that Mother Of All Updates was already something entirely different to begin with.
- The watered down 3.0 promised this year was like a 1:10 dilution of the original.
- Then they stripped down and delayed more features in the months and weeks before GC, resulting in further dilution.
and of course his TED lecture on homeopathy.
How people who are intellectually capable are easy to fool....
Post by: dsmart on September 05, 2017, 05:56:04 PM
Quote
when i think about it Star Citizen is the next step of AAA development.
Instead of releasing disappointing end product to consumer you just keep on piling up the promises and fidelity. With soon being a keyword keeping people investing into the product.
each time raising the expectation of consumer.
the more they deliver the actual product the less they can sell the dream forward.
im fearing this is the lesson AAA will learn from star citizen
Think about it star citizen has always been close to finish. But what is actually getting finished is a trailer of next big feature delaying the overall process.
from in engine made 2012 sq42 trailer
to terra landing in 2013
to city landing in 2014
to almost complete nyx landing zone
to pupil planet at end of 2015
to sandworm in 2016
to facetracking in 2017
Post by: Spunky Munkee on September 05, 2017, 06:24:26 PM
https://giphy.com/gifs/KY1qPW3R4KXSg/html5
Post by: Aya Reiko on September 06, 2017, 02:28:24 AM
The next video should read "Early 2018, to The Face Palm"At this point, I'd prefer "The Final Face-Plant".
https://giphy.com/gifs/KY1qPW3R4KXSg/html5
Post by: Serendipity on September 06, 2017, 04:22:19 AM
https://www.gamerebel.net/my-first-time-playing-star-citizen-first-impressions/
7 hours pass, and my streams picked up 1000s of viewers, hundreds of subscribers and followers, and my Discord has a full crew of Star Citizen enthusiasts all having a blast in the buggy universe that is Star Citizen. It’s 3 am and I reluctantly shut the show down for the night and say my farewells to many new friends. After a days work I fire the game and stream back up, and sure enough, another feature by youtube and many new viewers join the show, many being invited to the Discord to chat on stream. One individual named Raydon even gave me temporary access to his account with $5,000 worth of ships to check out. Unbelievable!
What I found during my first playthrough of Star Citizen was that the game is a bit convoluted, difficult to navigate, extremely buggy and lacking of stuff to do. However, I also found that this alpha state of a game, holds one of the most friendly and wonderful gaming communities I have ever seen in my 20+ years of internet use. Everyone is super helpful to new players, and many of the community know each other well and play nightly.
Excellent. Go community! Just need more game to play now...soon...sometime.
Post by: Padrepapp on September 06, 2017, 04:30:20 AM
New Star Citizen finds the community in game to be amazingly friendly and helpful. Which is nice.
https://www.gamerebel.net/my-first-time-playing-star-citizen-first-impressions/
What I found during my first playthrough of Star Citizen was that the game is a bit convoluted, difficult to navigate, extremely buggy and lacking of stuff to do. However, I also found that this alpha state of a game, holds one of the most friendly and wonderful gaming communities I have ever seen in my 20+ years of internet use. Everyone is super helpful to new players, and many of the community know each other well and play nightly.
[/i]
What I found during my first playthrough of Star Citizen was that the game is a bit convoluted, difficult to navigate, extremely buggy and lacking of stuff to do. However, I also found that this alpha state of a game, holds one of the most friendly and wonderful gaming communities I have ever seen in my 20+ years of internet use. Everyone is super helpful to new players, and many of the community know each other well and play nightly.
[/i]
I fixed the parts you should have bolded after 6 years and 150million dollars.
Post by: Motto on September 06, 2017, 04:34:28 AM
Post by: Wiggleitjiggle on September 06, 2017, 05:18:07 AM
Post by: Serendipity on September 06, 2017, 05:42:11 AM
The truth is this, the alpha of SC is exciting. It's buggy and broken and lacking features but you can feel where it wants to go and a lot of gaming enthusiasts are cheering it on.
The best bit here is the lip smacking irony of you guys acting in group think like a good little bunch of smartie cultists and displaying the very same behaviour you laugh at SC fans for engaging in. Hilarious.
I don't enjoy the alpha therefore anyone who does must be paid or stupid...
Post by: Wiggleitjiggle on September 06, 2017, 06:22:31 AM
Post by: Motto on September 06, 2017, 07:05:04 AM
Post by: Serendipity on September 06, 2017, 07:11:12 AM
Post by: Serendipity on September 06, 2017, 07:12:18 AM
There is nothing to do at all so yes, it is complete BS. Even the people advocating the game regularly tell people to wait to try it out, because they know it isn't fun. That guy probably did everything you can in 1 hour, spent the rest of the time probably just flying in circles and laughing at game breaking bugs
He streamed it all so feel free to go watch a VOD or something instead of making baseless accusations with no basis in truth.
Post by: Wiggleitjiggle on September 06, 2017, 07:21:50 AM
Post by: Motto on September 06, 2017, 07:24:48 AM
Serenstupidity, the funding tracker is BOGUS! It doesn't tell the truth about the money coming in and for one, it doesn't deduct al the money being refunded. So you can argue all you will here about that funding, we know it is not true. Why you keep insisting on bringing the same old false arguments back and back and back is beyond me. Speaking about not seeing the wood for the trees :doh:
Post by: Serendipity on September 06, 2017, 07:28:53 AM
Now then, any other proof it's bogus in other ways? Any evidence? Anything you can show me to change my mind? I've a very open mind, always changing how I think about things. Show me evidence. Convince me it's bogus and they're running a 400 person company on no income.
Post by: Motto on September 06, 2017, 07:32:53 AM
Post by: Serendipity on September 06, 2017, 07:35:11 AM
That the current figures are false needs no further clarification. I'll just wait for the investigations to bring out the whole truth of the finances.
So you can't show me a single piece of evidence to support your proposition that the funding chart is significantly inaccurate yet expect me to just believe you? Now that would be truly stupid...
Did you know there's a chocolate teapot in close orbit around the sun?
Post by: Motto on September 06, 2017, 07:38:06 AM
Post by: Wiggleitjiggle on September 06, 2017, 07:39:43 AM
Post by: dsmart on September 06, 2017, 08:14:50 AM
Star Citizen is the only odd ball one here, for more than 1 reason, but I am not worried about that project. I might start to get a little worried when they reach year 8 from when the kickstarter ended, if they have not released one of the games, So late 2020 early 2021.
:vince:
Quote
Anyways, Kickstarter/crowdfund have been a great thing for PC gaming.
Not really. The number of crowdfunded games is minuscule compared to those that weren't. No, it hasn't made a single dent to the PC game numbers.
Quote
If anything it has only changed to the point where people are just going to crowd fund games from already trusted developers with a good history of releasing good games whether those games were crowdfunded or not, at least for the big amount of money funded games.
No it's not. Have you been keeping track of how many projects from mainstream devs which never got funded?
Did you read my post from earlier in this thread where I posted various analysis from ICO about videogame crowd-funding trends?
Quote
Without the crowdfunded games, I fear we would be left with the massive amount of garbage that the AAA market (which is easily 95% of AAA gaming) has been shoveling out for more than a decade, where they put creativity and innovation into the trunk, or with the massive amount of indie games where 95% of them are garbage, and even then the good ones have a low production values.
Wrong again. Going by the huge popularity of triple A games, even going by the numbers of those that faltered recently such as COD:IW, ME:A, the number of those games continues to do well because fans stick with what they know and want to play. And for devs/pubs, sequels or copies are always a safe bet.
If gamers weren't buying those games, devs/pubs won't be making them. So clearly the minority think they are garbage. And minority opinions don't pay the bills.
The reason that most indie games are not up to par is because of the low barrier to entry in developing and publishing games. When you reduce that bar, that's what you get. Then game development is no longer an exclusive club. It's no different from any other form of creative media such as books, movies, or music.
As an example, since I started out, I knew that the type of games that I wanted to make, weren't going to appeal to a lot of people. So, just like flight sims from back in the day, I carved out a niche market for my games, stuck with it, and almost 30 years later, aside from the short detour to do an RTS (Line Of Defense Tactics (http://lodgame.com/tactics/)) which did surprisingly well, I have stuck with those same games because my install base kept buying them. And over the years, that install base grew. It's the same reason that the DCS flight sims are the de facto standard today, because that market is dead, but there are core simmers like myself who still support it.
Quote
The Crowdfunding games give a way for developers to be more into the AA market, where they can make great games with creativity and innovation in the drivers seat and have a much higher production value than indie games.
No it wasn't and didn't. It also contradicts your early statement. It was just an alternate form of funding for developing games. Whether those games turned out good or bad - or great - is largely irrelevant because financial expense is never the correct metric for judging the quality of a released product. This is evident by the apparent flops of multi-million Dollar games.
Post by: dsmart on September 06, 2017, 08:15:13 AM
First of all I only have $60 into this, and won't be spending anymore I never spend more than $60 for any crowdfunded game.
That's a wise decision
Quote
I have seen extremely less ambitious games that were developed by more seasoned teams that took 7+ years to develop and were still excellent games when they released.
Such as?
Quote
So with these games being far more ambitious is the reason why I do not expect the game for at least 8 years for one of them to release.
OK then.
Quote
Some bumbs, scrapes, and bruises, and people making assumptions of their own do not scare me at all. Anybody who didn't expect any bumbs, bruises, and scrapes along the way and funded these games did so in great ignorance.
They're not assumptions. They're opinions, and others are based on fact.
And yes, literally every single game development is riddled with challenges. And nobody is saying that Star Citizen can't or doesn't have those. That argument is a non-starter; as is the argument about it's "visual fidelity". NONE of those two issues are ever a topic for discussion because there is nothing to argue about there. Regardless of the fact that as to the visual fidelity, it already looks aged, compared to other recent and upcoming games, as well as the fact that their own foolish decision to focus on visual fidelity instead of engine capability, is why the game has been rife with performance issues that we've yet to see the worst (GC2017 was only the tip of the iceberg) of.
So now, what the on-going discourse is about, centers around very basic and straightforward FACTUAL things:
1) Arbitrarily increasing the scope of the original project that was pitched in 2012, thus invariably dooming it.
And before you say "Oh the community voted for that", don't - because they didn't (http://dereksmart.com/2016/06/star-citizen-fidelity-of-failure/#comment-3407). And IF they had, it was still up to Croberts to know where to stop. He didn't, because money was coming in as a result.
2) Removing and/or sidelining promised features which were already paid for through backer funding
e.g. private servers, VR, ability for friends to visit your hangar, and the list goes on (https://starcitizentracker.github.io/).
3) Consistently and systematically lying to backers - about pretty much, everything - while under the guise of "open development"
e.g. the 3.0 dev schedule (which has turned out to be confirmed as fiction) , the port to LumberYard which was in planning for over a year, but never disclosed until YE 2016; and then they lied about it. Not to mention the Star Marine debacle, the state of SQ42, the original game that most people backed in 2012
And the BIG one: knowing that SQ42 wasn't going to be shown because it wasn't ready, and knowing that they didn't actually have planetary tech working in the game engine, they went ahead and lied about literally every aspect of the project between AUG-OCT 2016 anyway. Then when they got busted (by me, as I was the first to proclaim that it was all R&D bullshit because of what sources told me) using an R&D demo being passed off as "in-game 3.0", they somehow managed to trot out a "The Road To CitizenCon" video, which conveniently precluded the events they were busted for. Because yeah, if you were upfront about something, the best course of action is to make a video proving that you lied ahead of telling those lies.
And to add insult to injury, in furtherance of those very same lies, Croberts went on stage and LIED about the status of the much anticipated 3.0.
And that was during and after raising over $5M as result of those very same events which, a year later at GC2017, have been confirmed to be lies much worse than we previously thought.
5) Using specially created R&D demos, passing them off as actual game features and/or mechanics - until they got busted doing it. Then the one time they actually came to a show to get around that, the world saw during GC2017 that the emperor had no knickers after all.
There's a very long list of this because it has been going on since 2014. Start here (http://www.dereksmart.com/forum/index.php?topic=29.msg3623#msg3623).
6) Going back on promises made to backers, including the shameful rescission of rights backers once had in the original ToS (http://dereksmart.com/forums/topic/star-citizen-tos/). The same ToS which was based on a shallow "The Pledge" which they have routinely and disgracefully defaulted on - repeatedly.
7) The on-going tactics to rip off backers, while continuing to raise money to fund a train-wreck and line their pockets, when in fact the game - as overscoped back in Nov 2014, was already fully funded to the tune of $65M. And yet, even after being late, this November will be +3 years and almost +$95M later with the game NOWHERE near Beta status and NO vertical slice. Meanwhile, SQ42 is still MIA, though it was coming in 2015.
Then there was that time when Croberts claimed that 2.0 was "substantial" enough to refuse refunds (http://dereksmart.com/forums/reply/1966/). I said it was bullshit. Some guy tested it with State authorities. And they agreed with me.
8) The continued promotion of a game they know - with certainty - cannot be built as pitched in Nov 2014, but still raising money (while taking out loans, investor money etc - and lying about or not disclosing it to backers) under the pretext of building said game. Which, going by past actions, the lies, obfuscation and deception will only come to light after the fact, and when it's too late for backers to do anything.
As I wrote in my recent GC2017 article (http://dereksmart.com/forums/reply/5685/), if another publisher or dev was doing even 10% of the above, there would be an uproar. Not to mention that a publisher backed project would have been CANCELED by now - without question. And that's why, at this point, only the hardcore backers who refuse to accept the fact that i) they've been scammed ii) they're making a group of people rich iii) the game will never be a reality, are the ones carrying the torch, even as the rest of gaming continues to laugh.
Quote
Besides, even with Alpha 2.6 I already had a great amount of fun out of it.
Don't regret spending the money 1 bit, and currently have no worries at all. Ask me again in 3+ years how I feel.
That's a perfectly OK stance because it's your money and you have the right to do as you wish with it. However, making excuses for the state and status of the project, while ignoring the larger picture and the missteps therein, is irresponsible, shallow, and disingenuous.
Post by: helimoth on September 06, 2017, 08:25:12 AM
Post by: Serendipity on September 06, 2017, 08:34:04 AM
For you to continue believe a tracker put out by someone that has been being called on lies since 2012.... is truly stupid. You have 0 reason to trust CIG since they started breaking promises, you know 5 years ago, yet you do.
Oh yeah, they're probably lying about the level of funding and paying their 400 staff and the rent on 5 studios all over the world with monopoly money. Maybe magic beans is currency enough? Baked beans? Perhaps they haven't raised a single dollar and just get everyone to work for free for years and years?
Serendipity strikes me as the kind of person that when hearing a nuclear warning siren, seeing hundreds of people running for cover, government emergency warnings playing on every TV channel and witnessing the sight of the nuke flying overhead would still demand to hear from somebody that witnessed the nuke itself being launched - preferably written confirmation from the person that launched it. At this point you're either being deliberately obtuse or you're frankly a bit of a special person and would do better on a kids forum rather than an adult forum like this.
You can extrapolate assumptions about the financial aspect of the company all you like but I prefer knowledge over guesswork. They're paying 400 staff. They can't do that if they have don't have money. When staff start leaving for not having wages paid then I'll start to believe they have no money. Whilst staff are getting paid and offices getting expanded I'm happy ignoring the so called 'nuke' flying overhead and pointing and laughing at all the chicken littles running around screaming about the sky falling.
Post by: Motto on September 06, 2017, 08:47:44 AM
Post by: helimoth on September 06, 2017, 09:00:52 AM
You can extrapolate assumptions about the financial aspect of the company all you like but I prefer knowledge over guesswork.
We do too. Chris has perfect information of all of this yet prefers to not share it, despite assuring backers at the start that they'd be treated no differently to publishers :D. Meanwhile clues are springing up all around, one of the most recent being the loan where he leveraged his entire company (and $156m worth of backer trust and faith) on a single, tiny loan - locking them out from any loans in the mean time - on funds they would be due to receive in due course anyway. Why the desperation, croberts? :D I thought your company finances were healthy. :shrug:
And how do you know staff are being paid anyway? I could throw it all back on you that everything you are saying is based upon assumptions. Fact remains until croberts decides to come clean and open up the books from scrutiny (which he will be forced to eventually whether by hook or by crook) the speculation will continue and to anyone with even a modicum of critical-thinking ability, things don't look good at all for croberts.
I just hope they are gentle on him in prison and don't try to fit an idris in to his hangar. :gary:
Post by: Motto on September 06, 2017, 10:44:26 AM
Did you know there's a chocolate teapot in close orbit around the sun?
I know about that chocolate teapot. Chris told me about it and sold me a picture of a teacup that I can use to visit it.
No? Nothing? No kudo's for this brilliant rebuttal? You guys... c'mon now. You know I live for this stuff, but I can't do without confirmation.
Post by: ecg on September 06, 2017, 12:26:24 PM
Post by: helimoth on September 06, 2017, 12:47:18 PM
(https://i.imgur.com/sd9b87V.png):laugh:
edited for shitizens
(https://i.gyazo.com/4305ac07815484d873296cedb2bc0396.png)
Post by: StanTheMan on September 06, 2017, 04:39:39 PM
First of all I only have $60 into this, and won't be spending anymore I never spend more than $60 for any crowdfunded game.
That's a wise decisionQuoteI have seen extremely less ambitious games that were developed by more seasoned teams that took 7+ years to develop and were still excellent games when they released.
Such as?QuoteSo with these games being far more ambitious is the reason why I do not expect the game for at least 8 years for one of them to release.
OK then.QuoteSome bumbs, scrapes, and bruises, and people making assumptions of their own do not scare me at all. Anybody who didn't expect any bumbs, bruises, and scrapes along the way and funded these games did so in great ignorance.
They're not assumptions. They're opinions, and others are based on fact.
And yes, literally every single game development is riddled with challenges. And nobody is saying that Star Citizen can't or doesn't have those. That argument is a non-starter; as is the argument about it's "visual fidelity". NONE of those two issues are ever a topic for discussion because there is nothing to argue about there. Regardless of the fact that as to the visual fidelity, it already looks aged, compared to other recent and upcoming games, as well as the fact that their own foolish decision to focus on visual fidelity instead of engine capability, is why the game has been rife with performance issues that we've yet to see the worst (GC2017 was only the tip of the iceberg) of.
So now, what the on-going discourse is about, centers around very basic and straightforward FACTUAL things:
1) Arbitrarily increasing the scope of the original project that was pitched in 2012, thus invariably dooming it.
And before you say "Oh the community voted for that", don't - because they didn't (http://dereksmart.com/2016/06/star-citizen-fidelity-of-failure/#comment-3407). And IF they had, it was still up to Croberts to know where to stop. He didn't, because money was coming in as a result.
2) Removing and/or sidelining promised features which were already paid for through backer funding
e.g. private servers, VR, ability for friends to visit your hangar, and the list goes on (https://starcitizentracker.github.io/).
3) Consistently and systematically lying to backers - about pretty much, everything - while under the guise of "open development"
e.g. the 3.0 dev schedule (which has turned out to be confirmed as fiction) , the port to LumberYard which was in planning for over a year, but never disclosed until YE 2016; and then they lied about it. Not to mention the Star Marine debacle, the state of SQ42, the original game that most people backed in 2012
And the BIG one: knowing that SQ42 wasn't going to be shown because it wasn't ready, and knowing that they didn't actually have planetary tech working in the game engine, they went ahead and lied about literally every aspect of the project between AUG-OCT 2016 anyway. Then when they got busted (by me, as I was the first to proclaim that it was all R&D bullshit because of what sources told me) using an R&D demo being passed off as "in-game 3.0", they somehow managed to trot out a "The Road To CitizenCon" video, which conveniently precluded the events they were busted for. Because yeah, if you were upfront about something, the best course of action is to make a video proving that you lied ahead of telling those lies.
And to add insult to injury, in furtherance of those very same lies, Croberts went on stage and LIED about the status of the much anticipated 3.0.
And that was during and after raising over $5M as result of those very same events which, a year later at GC2017, have been confirmed to be lies much worse than we previously thought.
5) Using specially created R&D demos, passing them off as actual game features and/or mechanics - until they got busted doing it. Then the one time they actually came to a show to get around that, the world saw during GC2017 that the emperor had no knickers after all.
There's a very long list of this because it has been going on since 2014. Start here (http://www.dereksmart.com/forum/index.php?topic=29.msg3623#msg3623).
6) Going back on promises made to backers, including the shameful rescission of rights backers once had in the original ToS (http://dereksmart.com/forums/topic/star-citizen-tos/). The same ToS which was based on a shallow "The Pledge" which they have routinely and disgracefully defaulted on - repeatedly.
7) The on-going tactics to rip off backers, while continuing to raise money to fund a train-wreck and line their pockets, when in fact the game - as overscoped back in Nov 2014, was already fully funded to the tune of $65M. And yet, even after being late, this November will be +3 years and almost +$95M later with the game NOWHERE near Beta status and NO vertical slice. Meanwhile, SQ42 is still MIA, though it was coming in 2015.
Then there was that time when Croberts claimed that 2.0 was "substantial" enough to refuse refunds (http://dereksmart.com/forums/reply/1966/). I said it was bullshit. Some guy tested it with State authorities. And they agreed with me.
8) The continued promotion of a game they know - with certainty - cannot be built as pitched in Nov 2014, but still raising money (while taking out loans, investor money etc - and lying about or not disclosing it to backers) under the pretext of building said game. Which, going by past actions, the lies, obfuscation and deception will only come to light after the fact, and when it's too late for backers to do anything.
As I wrote in my recent GC2017 article (http://dereksmart.com/forums/reply/5685/), if another publisher or dev was doing even 10% of the above, there would be an uproar. Not to mention that a publisher backed project would have been CANCELED by now - without question. And that's why, at this point, only the hardcore backers who refuse to accept the fact that i) they've been scammed ii) they're making a group of people rich iii) the game will never be a reality, are the ones carrying the torch, even as the rest of gaming continues to laugh.QuoteBesides, even with Alpha 2.6 I already had a great amount of fun out of it.
Don't regret spending the money 1 bit, and currently have no worries at all. Ask me again in 3+ years how I feel.
That's a perfectly OK stance because it's your money and you have the right to do as you wish with it. However, making excuses for the state and status of the project, while ignoring the larger picture and the missteps therein, is irresponsible, shallow, and disingenuous.
Whilst paying yourself and your family massive salaries and benefits.
Post by: StanTheMan on September 06, 2017, 04:46:36 PM
Quote
You can extrapolate assumptions about the financial aspect of the company all you like but I prefer knowledge over guesswork. They're paying 400 staff. They can't do that if they have don't have money. When staff start leaving for not having wages paid then I'll start to believe they have no money. Whilst staff are getting paid and offices getting expanded I'm happy ignoring the so called 'nuke' flying overhead and pointing and laughing at all the chicken littles running around screaming about the sky falling.
I am a recruitment consultant with over 20 years in the industry. This has included 3 years working internally with a global technology company where at any one time I had responsibility for sourcing several hundred skilled professionals and a recruitment budget of over $million.
What you are saying is BULLSHIT.
A company can be publically HIRING TENS OF THOUSANDS of people one minute and a minute later LAYING OFF TENS OF THOUSANDS of people.
AND the only people that know about that change are A FEW SENIOR PEOPLE AT THE VERY TOP OF THE COMPANY and some of their advisors, bankers etc.
Post by: Aya Reiko on September 06, 2017, 10:30:20 PM
Fact remains until croberts decides to come clean and open up the books from scrutiny (which he will be forced to eventually whether by hook or by crook) the speculation will continue and to anyone with even a modicum of critical-thinking ability, things don't look good at all for croberts.You know, I'm a $65 backer from the KS drive (and nothing beyond that since), so instead of demanding a refund, I could demand the accounting books instead.
Post by: Moeis on September 06, 2017, 10:30:52 PM
First of all I only have $60 into this, and won't be spending anymore I never spend more than $60 for any crowdfunded game.
That's a wise decisionQuoteI have seen extremely less ambitious games that were developed by more seasoned teams that took 7+ years to develop and were still excellent games when they released.
Such as?QuoteSo with these games being far more ambitious is the reason why I do not expect the game for at least 8 years for one of them to release.
OK then.QuoteSome bumbs, scrapes, and bruises, and people making assumptions of their own do not scare me at all. Anybody who didn't expect any bumbs, bruises, and scrapes along the way and funded these games did so in great ignorance.
They're not assumptions. They're opinions, and others are based on fact.
And yes, literally every single game development is riddled with challenges. And nobody is saying that Star Citizen can't or doesn't have those. That argument is a non-starter; as is the argument about it's "visual fidelity". NONE of those two issues are ever a topic for discussion because there is nothing to argue about there. Regardless of the fact that as to the visual fidelity, it already looks aged, compared to other recent and upcoming games, as well as the fact that their own foolish decision to focus on visual fidelity instead of engine capability, is why the game has been rife with performance issues that we've yet to see the worst (GC2017 was only the tip of the iceberg) of.
So now, what the on-going discourse is about, centers around very basic and straightforward FACTUAL things:
1) Arbitrarily increasing the scope of the original project that was pitched in 2012, thus invariably dooming it.
And before you say "Oh the community voted for that", don't - because they didn't (http://dereksmart.com/2016/06/star-citizen-fidelity-of-failure/#comment-3407). And IF they had, it was still up to Croberts to know where to stop. He didn't, because money was coming in as a result.
2) Removing and/or sidelining promised features which were already paid for through backer funding
e.g. private servers, VR, ability for friends to visit your hangar, and the list goes on (https://starcitizentracker.github.io/).
3) Consistently and systematically lying to backers - about pretty much, everything - while under the guise of "open development"
e.g. the 3.0 dev schedule (which has turned out to be confirmed as fiction) , the port to LumberYard which was in planning for over a year, but never disclosed until YE 2016; and then they lied about it. Not to mention the Star Marine debacle, the state of SQ42, the original game that most people backed in 2012
And the BIG one: knowing that SQ42 wasn't going to be shown because it wasn't ready, and knowing that they didn't actually have planetary tech working in the game engine, they went ahead and lied about literally every aspect of the project between AUG-OCT 2016 anyway. Then when they got busted (by me, as I was the first to proclaim that it was all R&D bullshit because of what sources told me) using an R&D demo being passed off as "in-game 3.0", they somehow managed to trot out a "The Road To CitizenCon" video, which conveniently precluded the events they were busted for. Because yeah, if you were upfront about something, the best course of action is to make a video proving that you lied ahead of telling those lies.
And to add insult to injury, in furtherance of those very same lies, Croberts went on stage and LIED about the status of the much anticipated 3.0.
And that was during and after raising over $5M as result of those very same events which, a year later at GC2017, have been confirmed to be lies much worse than we previously thought.
5) Using specially created R&D demos, passing them off as actual game features and/or mechanics - until they got busted doing it. Then the one time they actually came to a show to get around that, the world saw during GC2017 that the emperor had no knickers after all.
There's a very long list of this because it has been going on since 2014. Start here (http://www.dereksmart.com/forum/index.php?topic=29.msg3623#msg3623).
6) Going back on promises made to backers, including the shameful rescission of rights backers once had in the original ToS (http://dereksmart.com/forums/topic/star-citizen-tos/). The same ToS which was based on a shallow "The Pledge" which they have routinely and disgracefully defaulted on - repeatedly.
7) The on-going tactics to rip off backers, while continuing to raise money to fund a train-wreck and line their pockets, when in fact the game - as overscoped back in Nov 2014, was already fully funded to the tune of $65M. And yet, even after being late, this November will be +3 years and almost +$95M later with the game NOWHERE near Beta status and NO vertical slice. Meanwhile, SQ42 is still MIA, though it was coming in 2015.
Then there was that time when Croberts claimed that 2.0 was "substantial" enough to refuse refunds (http://dereksmart.com/forums/reply/1966/). I said it was bullshit. Some guy tested it with State authorities. And they agreed with me.
8) The continued promotion of a game they know - with certainty - cannot be built as pitched in Nov 2014, but still raising money (while taking out loans, investor money etc - and lying about or not disclosing it to backers) under the pretext of building said game. Which, going by past actions, the lies, obfuscation and deception will only come to light after the fact, and when it's too late for backers to do anything.
As I wrote in my recent GC2017 article (http://dereksmart.com/forums/reply/5685/), if another publisher or dev was doing even 10% of the above, there would be an uproar. Not to mention that a publisher backed project would have been CANCELED by now - without question. And that's why, at this point, only the hardcore backers who refuse to accept the fact that i) they've been scammed ii) they're making a group of people rich iii) the game will never be a reality, are the ones carrying the torch, even as the rest of gaming continues to laugh.QuoteBesides, even with Alpha 2.6 I already had a great amount of fun out of it.
Don't regret spending the money 1 bit, and currently have no worries at all. Ask me again in 3+ years how I feel.
That's a perfectly OK stance because it's your money and you have the right to do as you wish with it. However, making excuses for the state and status of the project, while ignoring the larger picture and the missteps therein, is irresponsible, shallow, and disingenuous.
Dragon Age Origins was a 7 year development cycle for an example.
Since 2013, everything that has been happening as far as the negativity, as far as Chris Roberts perfectionism mentality and management style and its effects on the game, and you even getting eventually involved with saying something about the game are all things I expected. I was basically expecting Freelancer all over again, but this time the difference is they would get a lot more money and continued money stream. Chances are not everything promised will make it into the game, I do expect the final outcome to be in a same type of situation as Freelancer, as in the game will still be massively fun but won't ever fully realize the full vision. I predicted all of this because of history and saw no reason why it wouldn't repeat itself in some way.
Everyone else I know who helped fund this felt the same way, we are all old gamer's that love the space combat sim genre, so we know about Chris Roberts, Erin (Eric? I always get those 2 names mixed up) Roberts, and you.
The only thing I didn't predict is when you did get involved, I didn't think it would become what looks like a huge crusade.
Also I really do not think the "rest of gaming" are really laughing as much as you think they are. If anything, the rest of gaming for the most part just don't care about it, don't know what to think about it, or just watching it. Then are there are the 2 extremes that as far as I can tell are just a very tiny group of loud people on either side of all of this.
Post by: Moeis on September 06, 2017, 10:43:37 PM
Star Citizen is the only odd ball one here, for more than 1 reason, but I am not worried about that project. I might start to get a little worried when they reach year 8 from when the kickstarter ended, if they have not released one of the games, So late 2020 early 2021.
:vince:QuoteAnyways, Kickstarter/crowdfund have been a great thing for PC gaming.
Not really. The number of crowdfunded games is minuscule compared to those that weren't. No, it hasn't made a single dent to the PC game numbers.QuoteIf anything it has only changed to the point where people are just going to crowd fund games from already trusted developers with a good history of releasing good games whether those games were crowdfunded or not, at least for the big amount of money funded games.
No it's not. Have you been keeping track of how many projects from mainstream devs which never got funded?
Did you read my post from earlier in this thread where I posted various analysis from ICO about videogame crowd-funding trends?QuoteWithout the crowdfunded games, I fear we would be left with the massive amount of garbage that the AAA market (which is easily 95% of AAA gaming) has been shoveling out for more than a decade, where they put creativity and innovation into the trunk, or with the massive amount of indie games where 95% of them are garbage, and even then the good ones have a low production values.
Wrong again. Going by the huge popularity of triple A games, even going by the numbers of those that faltered recently such as COD:IW, ME:A, the number of those games continues to do well because fans stick with what they know and want to play. And for devs/pubs, sequels or copies are always a safe bet.
If gamers weren't buying those games, devs/pubs won't be making them. So clearly the minority think they are garbage. And minority opinions don't pay the bills.
The reason that most indie games are not up to par is because of the low barrier to entry in developing and publishing games. When you reduce that bar, that's what you get. Then game development is no longer an exclusive club. It's no different from any other form of creative media such as books, movies, or music.
As an example, since I started out, I knew that the type of games that I wanted to make, weren't going to appeal to a lot of people. So, just like flight sims from back in the day, I carved out a niche market for my games, stuck with it, and almost 30 years later, aside from the short detour to do an RTS (Line Of Defense Tactics (http://lodgame.com/tactics/)) which did surprisingly well, I have stuck with those same games because my install base kept buying them. And over the years, that install base grew. It's the same reason that the DCS flight sims are the de facto standard today, because that market is dead, but there are core simmers like myself who still support it.QuoteThe Crowdfunding games give a way for developers to be more into the AA market, where they can make great games with creativity and innovation in the drivers seat and have a much higher production value than indie games.
No it wasn't and didn't. It also contradicts your early statement. It was just an alternate form of funding for developing games. Whether those games turned out good or bad - or great - is largely irrelevant because financial expense is never the correct metric for judging the quality of a released product. This is evident by the apparent flops of multi-million Dollar games.
What crowdfunding did was give the consumer an even bigger voice for showing that there is still a market for certain kind of games that the market has largely forgot about. And as a result, crowdfunded or not, we have been seeing more and more developers take on developing those kinds of games since that time.
Post by: the_wolfmann on September 07, 2017, 01:43:07 AM
What crowdfunding did was give the consumer an even bigger voice for showing that there is still a market for certain kind of games that the market has largely forgot about. And as a result, crowdfunded or not, we have been seeing more and more developers take on developing those kinds of games since that time.
Hello, friend. It's annoying when you're leading the same discussion in multiple threads. Could you kindly find a subreddit for crowdfunding discussions and continue there? KTHXBYE
Post by: Motto on September 07, 2017, 02:23:15 AM
A company can be publically HIRING TENS OF THOUSANDS of people one minute and a minute later LAYING OFF TENS OF THOUSANDS of people.
That may be true for the USA, but in The Netherlands for one, it's not so easy to fire employees. They're heavily protected.
You know, I'm a $65 backer from the KS drive (and nothing beyond that since), so instead of demanding a refund, I could demand the accounting books instead.
You'd be doing the whole world a big favor if you actually did that. But I highly doubt Chris will listen to Kickstarter demands. But do try, please.
The only thing I didn't predict is when you did get involved, I didn't think it would become what looks like a huge crusade.
Did you bother to read how Derek got involved? That Chris has brought it onto himself? Doesn't seem so.
Post by: Backer42 on September 07, 2017, 02:31:28 AM
https://duckduckgo.com/?q=publishers+site%3Arobertsspaceindustries.com
There is even this: https://robertsspaceindustries.com/pledge/Add-Ons/Shut-Up-And-Take-My-Money
Quote
Want to show big publishers you’re voting with your credits? Pick up this special spacecraft skin honoring the RSI crowdfunding campaign!
Note: The functionality to apply skins has not been implemented yet and will be available at some point in the future!
Post by: Motto on September 07, 2017, 02:39:08 AM
Post by: Moeis on September 07, 2017, 02:39:13 AM
What crowdfunding did was give the consumer an even bigger voice for showing that there is still a market for certain kind of games that the market has largely forgot about. And as a result, crowdfunded or not, we have been seeing more and more developers take on developing those kinds of games since that time.
Hello, friend. It's annoying when you're leading the same discussion in multiple threads. Could you kindly find a subreddit for crowdfunding discussions and continue there? KTHXBYE
I didn't, I made a direct response to someone else on a different thread, and then things got moved around after. Not my fault it is in more than 1 thread.
Post by: Moeis on September 07, 2017, 02:40:25 AM
How he got involved has nothing to do with what I was expecting before all of it happened.A company can be publically HIRING TENS OF THOUSANDS of people one minute and a minute later LAYING OFF TENS OF THOUSANDS of people.
That may be true for the USA, but in The Netherlands for one, it's not so easy to fire employees. They're heavily protected.You know, I'm a $65 backer from the KS drive (and nothing beyond that since), so instead of demanding a refund, I could demand the accounting books instead.
You'd be doing the whole world a big favor if you actually did that. But I highly doubt Chris will listen to Kickstarter demands. But do try, please.The only thing I didn't predict is when you did get involved, I didn't think it would become what looks like a huge crusade.
Did you bother to read how Derek got involved? That Chris has brought it onto himself? Doesn't seem so.
Post by: Motto on September 07, 2017, 03:41:38 AM
Post by: StanTheMan on September 07, 2017, 04:53:10 AM
A company can be publically HIRING TENS OF THOUSANDS of people one minute and a minute later LAYING OFF TENS OF THOUSANDS of people.
That may be true for the USA, but in The Netherlands for one, it's not so easy to fire employees. They're heavily protected.
F42 is in the UK where you can fire staff easily.
As you say it is also true of the USA where CIG have staff in numbers.
OFC there are contractors and temp staff .. and if it goes bankrupt not being able to reduce headcount would be a reason for doing so.
Post by: FredBloggs on September 07, 2017, 10:13:51 AM
All lot of things have happend that nobody was expecting :D
Have I missed something? Have the ELE- Layoffs started already? Source?
Post by: dsmart on September 07, 2017, 10:54:47 AM
All lot of things have happend that nobody was expecting :D
Have I missed something? Have the ELE- Layoffs started already? Source?
Not that we know of. What we do know is that a group of people left on 08/31, with more to come.
Post by: Motto on September 07, 2017, 11:14:42 AM
Post by: dsmart on September 07, 2017, 11:17:00 AM
Do you have more details about what exactly left at 08/31? Where, how many, what positions, stuff like that?
Yeah, but I can't make that public for obvious reasons. When I used to do that, I'd get yelled at. And Shitizens also attacked the people who left.
Post by: Motto on September 07, 2017, 11:20:52 AM
Post by: GaryII on September 08, 2017, 03:44:14 AM
Do you have more details about what exactly left at 08/31? Where, how many, what positions, stuff like that?
I guess, here is one of them:
https://robertsspaceindustries.com/spectrum/community/SC/forum/3/thread/ode-to-omar
Post by: Motto on September 08, 2017, 04:08:11 AM
Post by: StanTheMan on September 08, 2017, 06:29:54 AM
That's one. Can't wait to see more names and numbers. I'd wish Derek would hurry up with the big reveal. I've had the first mod visit on Reddit and they like to see me gone. I'd love to drop the big one there too :D
Not going to be something CIG advertise nor the people that get canned.
It is a mix of shock, embarrasment, anger allsorts for the people involved. Some will find it a relief.
We would expect around 5% staff turnover in a healthy company as a rough guide.
Post by: Serendipity on September 08, 2017, 06:49:08 AM
Post by: Motto on September 08, 2017, 07:23:39 AM
The thing is, you have absolutely no evidence of the turn-over at CIG. So by stating "I think it's considerably less" you are doing the same thing you accuse Derek of. Pot calling the kettle black kinda thing. The difference being that Derek does have some contacts within CIG and you don't.
It'll be fun to collect all your statements though, you know, after Derek has been proven right.
Post by: Serendipity on September 08, 2017, 07:35:54 AM
We hear about staff leaving. It's less than 20 a year.
Post by: N0mad on September 08, 2017, 07:43:09 AM
:supaburn: :supaburn: :supaburn: :supaburn: :supaburn: :supaburn: :supaburn:
Pssssst, there is no 'big one' to drop. It's just the usual lies.
You seem very sure of yourself Serendipity - since you actually have no idea what Derek's news is, like the rest of us, you might be better off waiting to see what he's got before dismissing it out of hand.
Still, while we wait - any comment of the latest BurnDown (should be called BurnUp really), huh ??
Post by: Motto on September 08, 2017, 07:50:47 AM
Post by: dsmart on September 08, 2017, 07:54:41 AM
Post by: Motto on September 08, 2017, 08:10:44 AM
Post by: Wiggleitjiggle on September 08, 2017, 08:22:31 AM
Post by: dsmart on September 08, 2017, 08:33:18 AM
Their body language speaks volumes this entire episode, lots of looking away, poor eye contact, hands not acting in straight lines with line of vision, all tell tale signs of someone lying/being disingenuous. The eyebrows middle raised guy is a tell tale sign of anxiety, that or surprise and he's not being caught of guard im betting with this atv
You will know why, soon enough
https://twitter.com/dsmart/status/905831110910738432
Post by: Motto on September 08, 2017, 09:03:14 AM
Post by: dsmart on September 08, 2017, 09:07:31 AM
They're closing the UK office?
Of course not. They can't.
Post by: Orgetorix on September 08, 2017, 09:44:44 AM
They're closing the UK office?
No, how I see it, Studio 42 is in reality their main holding, it'll be the center point of any contraction. US holdings go first, pulling back toward their EU holdings, then lights out.
Post by: Orgetorix on September 08, 2017, 09:45:58 AM
Their body language speaks volumes this entire episode, lots of looking away, poor eye contact, hands not acting in straight lines with line of vision, all tell tale signs of someone lying/being disingenuous. The eyebrows middle raised guy is a tell tale sign of anxiety, that or surprise and he's not being caught of guard im betting with this atv
Except for Sandi, eye's of a snake if you ask me...
Post by: dsmart on September 08, 2017, 09:53:39 AM
They're closing the UK office?
No, how I see it, Studio 42 is in reality their main holding, it'll be the center point of any contraction. US holdings go first, pulling back toward their EU holdings, then lights out.
CIG-LA // Chris, Sandi, corporate
CIG-TX // Chris's friends (e.g. Tony Z et al), tech ops, PU dev
F42-GER // CryTek refugees, engine dev
F42-UK (Manchester) // Chris's brother Erin, SQ42, CS and God knows what else since they're clearly not working on SQ42
F42-UK (Derby) // Contingency plan for F42-UK downsizing most likely, since there's NO need for a studio just for face tech
F42-UK is the main and largest studio. Also Chris can escape and stay over there.
All the other studios are 100% expendable, and can be closed.
Post by: Orgetorix on September 08, 2017, 10:12:03 AM
They're closing the UK office?
No, how I see it, Studio 42 is in reality their main holding, it'll be the center point of any contraction. US holdings go first, pulling back toward their EU holdings, then lights out.
CIG-LA // Chris, Sandi, corporate
CIG-TX // Chris's friends (e.g. Tony Z et al), tech ops, PU dev
F42-GER // CryTek refugees, engine dev
F42-UK (Manchester) // Chris's brother Erin, SQ42, CS and God knows what else since they're clearly not working on SQ42
F42-UK (Derby) // Contingency plan for F42-UK downsizing most likely, since there's NO need for a studio just for face tech
F42-UK is the main and largest studio. Also Chris can escape and stay over there.
All the other studios are 100% expendable, and can be closed.
Which is exactly as I see it also, if they are even able to execute a corporate strategy in this regard.
List of Retraction,
1) Austin
2) LA
3) Germany
4) UK, Derby
5) UK, Manchester
Though as you indicated, they might retract Derby into Manchester 1st, or soon after Austin gets sucked into the blackhole.
I still think in the end it's going to be a high speed cratering event, right into the ground @ Mach 5.
Post by: N0mad on September 08, 2017, 10:17:36 AM
I can't believe they'd go that far.
Post by: Orgetorix on September 08, 2017, 10:40:08 AM
Interesting, they might be able to shed staff over a period of time without raising too many eyebrows but closing a studio would be catastrophic.
I can't believe they'd go that far.
And that's precisely the trap they're caught in. I don't see them being able to effect any radical labor force draw downs.
If I had more time, and better vid editing skillz, I'd mock this up with Derek as Green Leader the A-Wing Pilot, and Croberts/CiG as the Super Star Destroyer, and much hilarity would ensue...
Post by: dsmart on September 08, 2017, 03:03:39 PM
They're closing the UK office?
No, how I see it, Studio 42 is in reality their main holding, it'll be the center point of any contraction. US holdings go first, pulling back toward their EU holdings, then lights out.
CIG-LA // Chris, Sandi, corporate
CIG-TX // Chris's friends (e.g. Tony Z et al), tech ops, PU dev
F42-GER // CryTek refugees, engine dev
F42-UK (Manchester) // Chris's brother Erin, SQ42, CS and God knows what else since they're clearly not working on SQ42
F42-UK (Derby) // Contingency plan for F42-UK downsizing most likely, since there's NO need for a studio just for face tech
F42-UK is the main and largest studio. Also Chris can escape and stay over there.
All the other studios are 100% expendable, and can be closed.
Which is exactly as I see it also, if they are even able to execute a corporate strategy in this regard.
List of Retraction,
1) Austin
2) LA
3) Germany
4) UK, Derby
5) UK, Manchester
Though as you indicated, they might retract Derby into Manchester 1st, or soon after Austin gets sucked into the blackhole.
I still think in the end it's going to be a high speed cratering event, right into the ground @ Mach 5.
Derby is cheaper than Manchester. Since they are apparently getting a bigger office for Derby, it makes sense if they relocate/fire some of the workforce in Manchester and have a small op in Derby. They could also significantly downsize Manchester and still hang on to it and Derby.
Post by: Orgetorix on September 08, 2017, 05:13:11 PM
Derby is cheaper than Manchester. Since they are apparently getting a bigger office for Derby, it makes sense if they relocate/fire some of the workforce in Manchester and have a small op in Derby. They could also significantly downsize Manchester and still hang on to it and Derby.
Question I would have to pose is what is the lease agreement on the Manchester studios? I seem to remember seeing posts indicating that they still had multiple years on it, and it wasn't a cheap lease. Either way if they do start to contract it will cost them money to get out of any remaining years they have on the studios they are closing.
Which brings me back to my original hypothesis. I don't think they can contract in an orderly fashion, and still stay solvent. Doing so, in my view, would be a fatal blow to the illusion of progress that they're doing their damnedest to maintain. What we saw at GamesCon '17, and what we'll see at CitizenCon '17, shit shows as they were, and will be. Pale in comparison to layoffs, and public closures
of studios.
I think their first closure will be their final closure, so to speak. I think they know that, and even the dimmest bulb in all the studios, has to be seeing the light, and have that sinking feeling you get in your gut when, you're caught squarely between the hammer, and the digital anvil...
Post by: Moeis on September 08, 2017, 05:23:47 PM
That's one. Can't wait to see more names and numbers. I'd wish Derek would hurry up with the big reveal. I've had the first mod visit on Reddit and they like to see me gone. I'd love to drop the big one there too :D
You do realize that people leaving a company is not a sign of anything, right? I work for one of the most highest rated companies in the world for employee satisfaction, and we still get people who leave on their own volition for various reasons all the while were still very happy with the company they are leaving.
Unless there is some kind of real proof that layoffs are happening, people leaving means nothing at all.
Post by: Moeis on September 08, 2017, 05:27:17 PM
Is that 5% a year? So in CIGs case we'd be talking 20 leavers a year or so. I think it's considerably fewer than that. Sounds like a very happy workforce overall then. Nice.
Actually a 10% turn over rate is considered a healthy turnover rate, and yes that is per year.
http://www.gallup.com/businessjournal/316/truth-about-turnover.aspx
Post by: StanTheMan on September 08, 2017, 05:27:35 PM
They're closing the UK office?
No, how I see it, Studio 42 is in reality their main holding, it'll be the center point of any contraction. US holdings go first, pulling back toward their EU holdings, then lights out.
CIG-LA // Chris, Sandi, corporate
CIG-TX // Chris's friends (e.g. Tony Z et al), tech ops, PU dev
F42-GER // CryTek refugees, engine dev
F42-UK (Manchester) // Chris's brother Erin, SQ42, CS and God knows what else since they're clearly not working on SQ42
F42-UK (Derby) // Contingency plan for F42-UK downsizing most likely, since there's NO need for a studio just for face tech
F42-UK is the main and largest studio. Also Chris can escape and stay over there.
All the other studios are 100% expendable, and can be closed.
Which is exactly as I see it also, if they are even able to execute a corporate strategy in this regard.
List of Retraction,
1) Austin
2) LA
3) Germany
4) UK, Derby
5) UK, Manchester
Though as you indicated, they might retract Derby into Manchester 1st, or soon after Austin gets sucked into the blackhole.
I still think in the end it's going to be a high speed cratering event, right into the ground @ Mach 5.
Derby is cheaper than Manchester. Since they are apparently getting a bigger office for Derby, it makes sense if they relocate/fire some of the workforce in Manchester and have a small op in Derby. They could also significantly downsize Manchester and still hang on to it and Derby.
We will know things are really bad if they move their office to Hull.
Post by: Moeis on September 08, 2017, 05:28:51 PM
I really don't see the point in your comments here. "There's no big one", "seems like a nice company with a happy workforce", stuff like that, are all those remarks just to ruffle some feathers? Rattle some cages? See if anyone here takes the bait? Or just trolling a bit?
The thing is, you have absolutely no evidence of the turn-over at CIG. So by stating "I think it's considerably less" you are doing the same thing you accuse Derek of. Pot calling the kettle black kinda thing. The difference being that Derek does have some contacts within CIG and you don't.
It'll be fun to collect all your statements though, you know, after Derek has been proven right.
We have yet seen any proof of Derek Smart having any contacts within CIG. There is absolutely nothing he has ever said that convinced he ever has.
Post by: StanTheMan on September 08, 2017, 05:30:41 PM
That's one. Can't wait to see more names and numbers. I'd wish Derek would hurry up with the big reveal. I've had the first mod visit on Reddit and they like to see me gone. I'd love to drop the big one there too :D
You do realize that people leaving a company is not a sign of anything, right? I work for one of the most highest rated companies in the world for employee satisfaction, and we still get people who leave on their own volition for various reasons all the while were still very happy with the company they are leaving.
Unless there is some kind of real proof that layoffs are happening, people leaving means nothing at all.
They were not very happy that is why they left. However, yes, it is normal for people to move jobs for reasons other than they are mightily pissed off with their employer - that just helps.
Post by: Moeis on September 08, 2017, 05:32:55 PM
That's one. Can't wait to see more names and numbers. I'd wish Derek would hurry up with the big reveal. I've had the first mod visit on Reddit and they like to see me gone. I'd love to drop the big one there too :D
You do realize that people leaving a company is not a sign of anything, right? I work for one of the most highest rated companies in the world for employee satisfaction, and we still get people who leave on their own volition for various reasons all the while were still very happy with the company they are leaving.
Unless there is some kind of real proof that layoffs are happening, people leaving means nothing at all.
They were not very happy that is why they left. However, yes, it is normal for people to move jobs for reasons other than they are mightily pissed off with their employer - that just helps.
Proof as to why they left? Or are you just assuming they left because they were not happy?
Post by: dsmart on September 08, 2017, 05:33:32 PM
Derby is cheaper than Manchester. Since they are apparently getting a bigger office for Derby, it makes sense if they relocate/fire some of the workforce in Manchester and have a small op in Derby. They could also significantly downsize Manchester and still hang on to it and Derby.
Question I would have to pose is what is the lease agreement on the Manchester studios? I seem to remember seeing posts indicating that they still had multiple years on it, and it wasn't a cheap lease. Either way if they do start to contract it will cost them money to get out of any remaining years they have on the studios they are closing.
Which brings me back to my original hypothesis. I don't think they can contract in an orderly fashion, and still stay solvent. Doing so, in my view, would be a fatal blow to the illusion of progress that they're doing their damnedest to maintain. What we saw at GamesCon '17, and what we'll see at CitizenCon '17, shit shows as they were, and will be. Pale in comparison to layoffs, and public closures
of studios.
I think their first closure will be their final closure, so to speak. I think they know that, and even the dimmest bulb in all the studios, has to be seeing the light, and have that sinking feeling you get in your gut when, you're caught squarely between the hammer, and the digital anvil...
Downsizing is going to be very challenging and detrimental to the project due to how they have the development spread out. Also, Matt covered this in PTII of his article (https://www.gamasutra.com/blogs/MattBrady/20170901/304964/Star_Citizen_A_Close_Look_at_the_Cash.php).
Post by: dsmart on September 08, 2017, 05:35:08 PM
That's one. Can't wait to see more names and numbers. I'd wish Derek would hurry up with the big reveal. I've had the first mod visit on Reddit and they like to see me gone. I'd love to drop the big one there too :D
You do realize that people leaving a company is not a sign of anything, right? I work for one of the most highest rated companies in the world for employee satisfaction, and we still get people who leave on their own volition for various reasons all the while were still very happy with the company they are leaving.
Unless there is some kind of real proof that layoffs are happening, people leaving means nothing at all.
Yup quite true in fact. Except that it's more of an issue when key people leave during active development of a project that's not only three years late, but also not even 15% to completion.
This industry is one of the most difficult to get into. So people don't just leave without a good reason.
Post by: dsmart on September 08, 2017, 05:40:54 PM
I really don't see the point in your comments here. "There's no big one", "seems like a nice company with a happy workforce", stuff like that, are all those remarks just to ruffle some feathers? Rattle some cages? See if anyone here takes the bait? Or just trolling a bit?
The thing is, you have absolutely no evidence of the turn-over at CIG. So by stating "I think it's considerably less" you are doing the same thing you accuse Derek of. Pot calling the kettle black kinda thing. The difference being that Derek does have some contacts within CIG and you don't.
It'll be fun to collect all your statements though, you know, after Derek has been proven right.
We have yet seen any proof of Derek Smart having any contacts within CIG. There is absolutely nothing he has ever said that convinced he ever has.
That's your problem, not mine. And nobody cares, except you guys on /r/ds.
I am not here, and never was here, to convince anyone of anything. I don't control what people do with their money, and I don't care. And I don't care what they choose to believe. That's not my thing, and it never was.
I care about one single thing: vindication (because I know with 100% certainty, that I am right about my assessment) for having been dragged into a shit-storm in which a group of people, mad over a fucking video game, have taken upon themselves to engage in targeted harassment of me, my team, my family, my games etc. All because I wrote a blog.
It's hilarious that with all your heads buried in the sand, even as most everything I write about, coming true (even as you guys ignore them until they happen), this notion of "sources", is all you guys care about. As if that's somehow important. Whether I have sources or not, or just making shit up on the fly, it's all irrelevant because the project is on the decline, is the industry laughing stock, is an on-going active scam, and stands NO chance of EVER becoming a reality.
Post by: Motto on September 08, 2017, 05:43:44 PM
We have yet seen any proof of Derek Smart having any contacts within CIG. There is absolutely nothing he has ever said that convinced he ever has.
We? Do speak for yourself. It's one thing that you don't believe that, it's another to declare that for all of us. I know that Derek has inside contacts.
Post by: Moeis on September 08, 2017, 06:00:11 PM
I really don't see the point in your comments here. "There's no big one", "seems like a nice company with a happy workforce", stuff like that, are all those remarks just to ruffle some feathers? Rattle some cages? See if anyone here takes the bait? Or just trolling a bit?
The thing is, you have absolutely no evidence of the turn-over at CIG. So by stating "I think it's considerably less" you are doing the same thing you accuse Derek of. Pot calling the kettle black kinda thing. The difference being that Derek does have some contacts within CIG and you don't.
It'll be fun to collect all your statements though, you know, after Derek has been proven right.
We have yet seen any proof of Derek Smart having any contacts within CIG. There is absolutely nothing he has ever said that convinced he ever has.
That's your problem, not mine. And nobody cares, except you guys on /r/ds.
I am not here, and never was here, to convince anyone of anything. I don't control what people do with their money, and I don't care. And I don't care what they choose to believe. That's not my thing, and it never was.
I care about one single thing: vindication (because I know with 100% certainty, that I am right about my assessment) for having been dragged into a shit-storm in which a group of people, mad over a fucking video game, have taken upon themselves to engage in targeted harassment of me, my team, my family, my games etc. All because I wrote a blog.
It's hilarious that with all your heads buried in the sand, even as most everything I write about, coming true (even as you guys ignore them until they happen), this notion of "sources", is all you guys care about. As if that's somehow important. Whether I have sources or not, or just making shit up on the fly, it's all irrelevant because the project is on the decline, is the industry laughing stock, is an on-going active scam, and stands NO chance of EVER becoming a reality.
first of all I don't even know what /r/ds is, so who ever these other guys are I have no idea what you are talking about.
Well so far you have not been vindicated at all, you never said anything that has ever convinced me you were ever right. As far as I can tell you know just as much as anybody else outside of CIG. Of everything I have read of yours, the only thing you are right about is the game did not release in 2014. Everything else saying you are "right" is flimsy at best in my opinion. I use critical thinking for everything I read, and so far what you have written leaves much to be desired. Unless I missed something, I can't think of anything you said that came true that wasn't already expected.
You, family, ect, being attacked is wrong and shouldn't have happened.
Till something actually happens that you straight out says will happen that nobody else expected, I see no reason to believe you at all.
Post by: dsmart on September 08, 2017, 06:21:36 PM
first of all I don't even know what /r/ds is, so who ever these other guys are I have no idea what you are talking about.
uh-huh, OK
Quote
Well so far you have not been vindicated at all, you never said anything that has ever convinced me you were ever right.
Either your reading comprehension skills are lacking, or you didn't read what I wrote. Where did I say I was vindicated? Please show it to me.
Quote
As far as I can tell you know just as much as anybody else outside of CIG. Of everything I have read of yours, the only thing you are right about is the game did not release in 2014. Everything else saying you are "right" is flimsy at best in my opinion.
uh-huh, OK.
Quote
I use critical thinking for everything I read, and so far what you have written leaves much to be desired. Unless I missed something, I can't think of anything you said that came true that wasn't already expected.
Again, that's on you. Nobody cares. I know I don't.
Quote
Till something actually happens that you straight out says will happen that nobody else expected, I see no reason to believe you at all.
You keep repeating yourself as if you're trying to convince yourself. I can tell you with certainty, that you're not convincing anyone here. Nobody cares what you think, how you think it, or why. We all have our opinions which we're entitled to. If you, for some reason, think you're important enough that anyone here has to be concerned about your frame of mind and/or what you think of my (or anyone else's) input regarding this on-going scam, then fucking :lol: man, you're on the wrong part of town.
Post by: dsmart on September 08, 2017, 06:24:21 PM
(https://robertsspaceindustries.com/media/94fmtrtu3xfkkr/source/Remainingfix_090817.png)
Post by: Moeis on September 08, 2017, 06:41:13 PM
first of all I don't even know what /r/ds is, so who ever these other guys are I have no idea what you are talking about.
uh-huh, OKQuoteWell so far you have not been vindicated at all, you never said anything that has ever convinced me you were ever right.
Either your reading comprehension skills are lacking, or you didn't read what I wrote. Where did I say I was vindicated? Please show it to me.QuoteAs far as I can tell you know just as much as anybody else outside of CIG. Of everything I have read of yours, the only thing you are right about is the game did not release in 2014. Everything else saying you are "right" is flimsy at best in my opinion.
uh-huh, OK.QuoteI use critical thinking for everything I read, and so far what you have written leaves much to be desired. Unless I missed something, I can't think of anything you said that came true that wasn't already expected.
Again, that's on you. Nobody cares. I know I don't.QuoteTill something actually happens that you straight out says will happen that nobody else expected, I see no reason to believe you at all.
You keep repeating yourself as if you're trying to convince yourself. I can tell you with certainty, that you're not convincing anyone here. Nobody cares what you think, how you think it, or why. We all have our opinions which we're entitled to. If you, for some reason, think you're important enough that anyone here has to be concerned about your frame of mind and/or what you think of my (or anyone else's) input regarding this on-going scam, then fucking :lol: man, you're on the wrong part of town.
Well since you don't want to tell me what r/ds is, I guess it was not an important thing at all, so why even mention it in the first place?
You misunderstood what I said. You said you only cared about vindication. My point is, despite you saying you have been right about many things, you haven't been vindicated on anything you claim to be right about at this point. So there is no reason to believe that you will be vindicated in the end either.
Really it is on you to actually prove the things you say, which thus far you have not. It is on you that I don't believe you, that is your problem.
I don't need to convince myself to not believe you, you are the one that is failing to convince me or any other person like me who uses critical thinking while looking at real evidence.
But you actually do seem to care about trying to convince people, which is why you spend so much time on Twitter, blogs, ect trying to convince people that everything is a scam. I am not here to convince anybody here of anything, cause I already know that everybody here, with a few exceptions, are full of people that are already believing you.
You sure do seem to get overly emotional over someone saying they simply do not believe you, I don't see any reason for doing such things.
Post by: dsmart on September 08, 2017, 07:03:54 PM
You misunderstood what I said. You said you only cared about vindication. My point is, despite you saying you have been right about many things, you haven't been vindicated on anything you claim to be right about at this point. So there is no reason to believe that you will be vindicated in the end either.
No, I didn't misunderstand anything. You're the one going around in circles. What I said was pretty clear. Here, let me quote it for you.
Quote
I care about one single thing: vindication (because I know with 100% certainty, that I am right about my assessment) for having been dragged into a shit-storm in which a group of people, mad over a fucking video game, have taken upon themselves to engage in targeted harassment of me, my team, my family, my games etc. All because I wrote a blog.
Quote
Really it is on you to actually prove the things you say, which thus far you have not. It is on you that I don't believe you, that is your problem.
I don't need to convince myself to not believe you, you are the one that is failing to convince me or any other person like me who uses critical thinking while looking at real evidence.
Again, that circular logic doesn't work on people like me. I don't have to prove anything, to anyone. That's not how that works. And the fact that you think that you not believe me - something which I already said is irrelevant to me - is somehow my problem, just goes to show how hubris and arrogance have no place in meaningful discourse. Even if I was official media, or you were a subscriber (free or paid), the onus won't be on me. No, it would be on you because that's how it actually works. There is a reason why Alex Jones, Rush Limbough and all those ass-clowns at Fox News get paychecks. And that reason ties into why rags like The Enquirer are still in business. Again, you have no clue what you're talking about.
Quote
But you actually do seem to care about trying to convince people, which is why you spend so much time on Twitter, blogs, ect trying to convince people that everything is a scam. I am not here to convince anybody here of anything, cause I already know that everybody here, with a few exceptions, are full of people that are already believing you.
You sure do seem to get overly emotional over someone saying they simply do not believe you, I don't see any reason for doing such things.
So, according to you, someone posting their opinions and missives on social media, on their time, as they see fit, is somehow them trying to convince people of something? Are you high? Do you even know how that sounds?
Here is an example. And since, according to you, your brain processes things differently, back in April 2016, I wrote a blog, Star Citizen - Extinction Level Event (http://dereksmart.com/2016/04/star-citizen-the-ele/), which was the ground zero for my saying that the project had entered an irrecoverable E.L.E. In that blog,
Here is just one quote from it:
Quote
You could start with the ever-changing ToS which, effective May 31st, 2016 from their inability to deliver as promised, requires them to provide not only refunds, but also a financial accounting of how the money raised from backers, has been spent. They’re unlikely to do it. And there is a reason that they shifted that date from 12 months (expired Nov 30th, 2015) to 18 months (expires May 31st 2016).
They changed the ToS in June 2016 (http://dereksmart.com/forums/topic/star-citizen-tos/).
So, as example of one of many things that I have been right about, was that me trying to convince people of anything, or just me putting thoughts and opinions on paper, leaving it up to the reader - as all writers do - to draw their own conclusions?
Here is another good one:
For a long time I had written that their refusal to give refunds was illegal and won't stand up to legal scrutiny. Even as they were refusing refunds, and backers getting frustrated, Croberts was on the record in the media saying they don't refuse refunds if there was a reason to give one. Even though he was already saying that 2.0 was substantial enough to refuse refunds.
Guess what happened? A guy who was refused a sizable refund, read my blogs, and decided to test my theory. He went straight to the CA authorities. They agreed with my assessment. CIG refunded the guy. Several others contacted that same CA office. All of a sudden, refunds were a thing and haven't been refused since.
I wrote about the resulting fallout in my July 2016 blog, The Refund Debacle (http://www.dereksmart.org/2016/07/star-citizen-the-refund-debacle/).
Again I asked, was that me trying to convince people of anything, or just me putting thoughts and opinions on paper, leaving it up to the reader - as all writers do - to draw their own conclusions?
I have LOTS more where that came from. Let me know if you would like more. I have them all in a nice Evernote notebook which I used for my book. So it's just a matter of copy and paste.
Post by: Moeis on September 08, 2017, 07:23:03 PM
For how emotional you seem to be in all of this, yeah, I have every reason to believe that you really do need people to believe you, and it upsets you if people do not believe you. Your actions speak must louder than words.
I used to be interested in LoD, and it seemed like you used to make a lot more progress prior to your crusade against Star Citizen. Then as time went by I saw the development of LoD really come to a crawl ever since you started your crusade with SC. You really do seem obsessed with Star Citizen, and that is why I feel you are emotional about it, cause your 2 other projects seem to have suffered because of it.
Post by: dsmart on September 08, 2017, 07:29:58 PM
I used to be interested in LoD, and it seemed like you used to make a lot more progress prior to your crusade against Star Citizen. Then as time went by I saw the development of LoD really come to a crawl ever since you started your crusade with SC. You really do seem obsessed with Star Citizen, and that is why I feel you are emotional about it, cause your 2 other projects seem to have suffered because of it.
It's cute that you think LoD dev came to a crawl (http://lodgame.com/changelog/). Nice try. Our last major patch was in March (FYI, the last major SC patch was in April). If we don't have anything new to release, we don't release it. What's there gets on-going testing using our internal server. Aside from the fact that we're doing a port to UE4 in tandem for our console versions. For someone who was "interested" in LoD, you would actually know this if you were following it because I've written several dev blogs (http://lodgame.com/blog/) and dev status updates (http://lodgame.com/news/) about it.
Deflecting Star Citizen discussions to make it about LoD, isn't going to work. Don't bother.
Post by: Moeis on September 08, 2017, 07:34:50 PM
I used to be interested in LoD, and it seemed like you used to make a lot more progress prior to your crusade against Star Citizen. Then as time went by I saw the development of LoD really come to a crawl ever since you started your crusade with SC. You really do seem obsessed with Star Citizen, and that is why I feel you are emotional about it, cause your 2 other projects seem to have suffered because of it.
It's cute that you think LoD dev came to a crawl (http://lodgame.com/changelog/). Nice try. Our last major patch was in March (FYI, the last major SC patch was in April). If we don't have anything new to release, we don't release it. What's there gets on-going testing using our internal server. Aside from the fact that we're doing a port to UE4 in tandem for our console versions. For someone who was "interested" in LoD, you would actually know this if you were following it because I've written several dev blogs (http://lodgame.com/blog/) and dev status updates (http://lodgame.com/news/) about it.
Deflecting Star Citizen discussions to make it about LoD, isn't going to work. Don't bother.
I wasn't trying to deflect it to be about LOD, rather I was explaining why I feel you are so emotionally invested into Star Citizen, to the point of it effecting the rest of your life in a bad way.
There is more I can say about LOD and the evidence about the development has come to a crawl, but like I said that wasn't my point anyways.
Post by: dsmart on September 08, 2017, 07:37:04 PM
New totally-not-fake schedule (https://robertsspaceindustries.com/schedule-report) is up, and I just got the latest newsletter (which hilariously has stamina as the topic highlight).
(https://robertsspaceindustries.com/media/94fmtrtu3xfkkr/source/Remainingfix_090817.png)
Nick over at SA has his analysis online (https://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3800238&userid=0&perpage=40&pagenumber=2138#post476213939).
Sept 8th "Schedule Report" Report
Schedule Report: https://robertsspaceindustries.com/schedule-report
Diff: https://www.diffchecker.com/yRJon1Ib
No features completed. 5 new delays. 3 features had their ETAs removed.
Quote
After a solid week of bug fixing and triage, we are happy to report that the critical issue list for Star Citizen Alpha 3.0 Evocati is heading back in the right direction. Last week we reported that list had jumped up to 94 major bugs thanks to issues discovered during our Gamescom demos, but this week they received our full attention with a heavy dose of bugsmashing and were brought down to 76. Alongside the triage and bugfixing, we’ve continued to review key features (this week we tackled Comms and Missions), to consider any extra work needed, then we will update the plan for these features for delivery to Evocati, Public PTU, 3.0 LIve, and beyond, as necessary.
This burn down Evocati window is coming to a close soon. Even though this process can be a bit of a rollercoaster ride with crazy fluctuations, even day to day, we feel providing you with this sort of transparency in our development is something of value as you continue this journey with us. We’ll be back next week with further updates as we draw ever closer to 3.0’s unveiling for all our backers.
Quote
Completed: 0
Delayed: 5
Remaining: 8
DELAYED:
Quote
Cockpit Experience - ETA is TBD (was 5th September)
Vehicle Customizer App - ETA is 11th September (was 4th September)
UI Engineering have been working to fix a few blocking issues in the Vehicle Customisation code to allow them to continue their work in the way they need. These bugs have taken more time than anticipated, which has impacted the completion estimate.
Ship Selector App & Insurance Claim - ETA is 12th September (was 4th September)
Further bugfixing support on other systems was required over the last week. The UI team is aiming to have this completed by early next week.
Comms System UI - ETA Removed
The entire comms system will undergo final implementation review next week. Should there be any further requirements for UI, these will be identified in that review and estimated out.
Mission System - ETA is TBD (was 1st September)
Feedback from the review is still being estimated out.
OPEN:
Quote
- COCKPIT EXPERIENCE
- MISSION GIVERS
- CHARACTER CUSTOMIZATION
- VEHICLE CUSTOMIZER APP
- SHIP SELECTOR APP & INSURANCE CLAIM
- COMMS SYSTEM UI
- MISSION SYSTEM
- ADDITIONAL SURFACE OUTPOSTS
Post by: dsmart on September 08, 2017, 07:42:08 PM
I wasn't trying to deflect it to be about LOD, rather I was explaining why I feel you are so emotionally invested into Star Citizen, to the point of it effecting the rest of your life in a bad way.
That's your opinion. By your flawed logic, anyone embarking on something they find worthy of their time, somehow affects their lives in a bad way. Which is precisely how scammers and con artists like Chris Roberts and his ilk, get away with things. Because nobody could be bothered. And people who are scammed, are usually unlikely to report it, let alone acknowledge that they'd be scammed. What I do with my time, is none of your business. I'm sure you would love for me to stop writing about Star Citizen, but rest assured, unless you guys straight up come and kill me - as most have threatened to do - that's NEVER going to happen.
Quote
There is more I can say about LOD and the evidence about the development has come to a crawl, but like I said that wasn't my point anyways.
There isn't, because you know nothing about the development, other than what's been made public - by me. Your brain must now have been able to decipher the game's massive changelog. Or you're confusing it with the bullshit that CIG puts out for Star Citizen's changelog.
Post by: Orgetorix on September 08, 2017, 08:05:06 PM
yes, you are misunderstanding, but we could go on forever like the Monty Python argument skit.
Just give it a rest buddy, you're not going to get anywhere personally attacking Derek here. If you want to have a full on anti-Derek nerdgasm, take your bunched up panties over to https://www.reddit.com/r/DerekSmart/ and fly them as high as you can on that flag pole...
Post by: dsmart on September 08, 2017, 08:08:04 PM
yes, you are misunderstanding, but we could go on forever like the Monty Python argument skit.
Just give it a rest buddy, you're not going to get anywhere personally attacking Derek here. If you want to have a full on anti-Derek nerdgasm, take your bunched up panties over to https://www.reddit.com/r/DerekSmart/ and fly them as high as you can on that flag pole...
I already issued him a warning and deleted his last missive. Next up, he's getting banned. We're just not going to tolerate that here.
That's the thing with these guys, the minute they end up on the wrong side of an argument, the resort to personal attacks.
See how he just flat out ignored my post about the E.L.E blog in which I pointed out two key issues that I predicted and which were relevant to whatever he was claiming. He ignored it, but moved right on to the personal attacks.
We know he's from /r/ds and we'll soon find out who he is, just like we unmasked others (e.g. ConfusedMonkeh aka Serendipity) before him. They simply can't help themselves and it doesn't take long before they out themselves.
Post by: Moeis on September 08, 2017, 08:26:49 PM
yes, you are misunderstanding, but we could go on forever like the Monty Python argument skit.
Just give it a rest buddy, you're not going to get anywhere personally attacking Derek here. If you want to have a full on anti-Derek nerdgasm, take your bunched up panties over to https://www.reddit.com/r/DerekSmart/ and fly them as high as you can on that flag pole...
I already issued him a warning and deleted his last missive. Next up, he's getting banned. We're just not going to tolerate that here.
That's the thing with these guys, the minute they end up on the wrong side of an argument, the resort to personal attacks.
See how he just flat out ignored my post about the E.L.E blog in which I pointed out two key issues that I predicted and which were relevant to whatever he was claiming. He ignored it, but moved right on to the personal attacks.
We know he's from /r/ds and we'll soon find out who he is, just like we unmasked others (e.g. ConfusedMonkeh aka Serendipity) before him. They simply can't help themselves and it doesn't take long before they out themselves.
I sent you a PM asking you a question about the warning, so please answer it.
Also like I said, I do not know what /r/ds even is, and I do not know why you think I am from what ever that is.
Post by: Orgetorix on September 08, 2017, 08:39:12 PM
I already issued him a warning and deleted his last missive. Next up, he's getting banned. We're just not going to tolerate that here.
That's the thing with these guys, the minute they end up on the wrong side of an argument, the resort to personal attacks.
See how he just flat out ignored my post about the E.L.E blog in which I pointed out two key issues that I predicted and which were relevant to whatever he was claiming. He ignored it, but moved right on to the personal attacks.
We know he's from /r/ds and we'll soon find out who he is, just like we unmasked others (e.g. ConfusedMonkeh aka Serendipity) before him. They simply can't help themselves and it doesn't take long before they out themselves.
I hear ya, they're a bunch of. Well you can't really help, but feel sorry for them to the n°. Because you wouldn't be human if you didn't have a little empathy for them.
On the other hand though, it's just so laughably pitiful when you step back, and take in the whole purview of their sheer commitment to cognitive dissonance.
And its all Over a God Awful Fucking Game, nothing more. The Shitizens have expended enough energy on this cluster fuck to power a small island nation for a decade. All that energy expended over nothing more then pixelated JPEG's. Oh the humanity of it all...
Post by: Moeis on September 08, 2017, 08:46:24 PM
Post by: Backer42 on September 08, 2017, 08:52:21 PM
I suspect one of the games (SC or SQ42) to release in 3 or 4 years from now, and the other to come out sometime after that.Assuming the primary platform of that 2011 CryEngine still exists in 2022 (I doubt it, Windows PC is on its way out). From where do another 160 million dollars of funding come from?
Post by: Moeis on September 08, 2017, 09:06:11 PM
I suspect one of the games (SC or SQ42) to release in 3 or 4 years from now, and the other to come out sometime after that.Assuming the primary platform of that 2011 CryEngine still exists in 2022 (I doubt it, Windows PC is on its way out). From where do another 160 million dollars of funding come from?
Windows PC is far from being on the way out. People have been saying that PC gaming is dying for many decades now, and there is no indication that PC gaming or even Windows PC is going to "die". Also I doubt Amazon is going to abandon Lumberyard any time soon.
Post by: ecg on September 08, 2017, 11:04:50 PM
I suspect one of the games (SC or SQ42) to release in 3 or 4 years from now, and the other to come out sometime after that.
Based on what? The supporters of SC are actually doing the things they accuse DS of doing? MAKING STUFF UP! Game was supposed to be out years ago, and that's straight from the mouth of croberts. All DS does is take the information spewed forth from croberts and co. and uses his experience in the industry to explain why delay upon delay is occurring, why they will deplete funds prior to releasing the full game (which is no longer what was initially promised), and gives his opinions.
croberts has outright lied to you and all your other SC brethren,("3.0 will be released Dec 2016"), why do you have such blind faith in croberts? What has he done to prove to anyone that he will come through in the end?
What croberts excels at is marketing - lots of pretty pictures, videos, R&D demos to suck people in - They have accomplished nothing since Dec. 2016. The 3.0 he announced back then has been shrunk and delayed, shrunk and delayed. I ask again, what has croberts done besides make grandiose promises that have been scaled back and still only have a tech demo alpha to show for it? After 6 +years.
I pledged back in Oct 2012. I got out last year. Not because of anything DS wrote, but because it was pretty easy to see all the red flags popping up on this project. It was no longer the game I pledged my money towards.
Post by: Moeis on September 08, 2017, 11:34:32 PM
I suspect one of the games (SC or SQ42) to release in 3 or 4 years from now, and the other to come out sometime after that.
Based on what?
I already answered this early in this thread, around page 70.
And I disagree about Chris Roberts lying about when things would be released, otherwise you would have to say every single developer is a liar when ever they have something that is late, I dont't call them liars unless there is actual proof that when they gave the release date they knew it was not possible. Chris Roberts has always been bad at giving good release dates, it is one of his flaws among his perfectionism and his management style, and this is all stuff I knew before I put my $60 into this game.
Post by: ecg on September 09, 2017, 12:23:17 AM
I suspect one of the games (SC or SQ42) to release in 3 or 4 years from now, and the other to come out sometime after that.
Based on what?
I already answered this early in this thread, around page 70.
And I disagree about Chris Roberts lying about when things would be released, otherwise you would have to say every single developer is a liar when ever they have something that is late, I don't call them liars unless there is actual proof that when they gave the release date they knew it was not possible. Chris Roberts has always been bad at giving good release dates, it is one of his flaws among his perfectionism and his management style, and this is all stuff I knew before I put my $60 into this game.
What you are describing is not to far from "Cult of Personality". Believe what you want its your money. I paraphrase - "We are delaying 3.0 until Dec 2016 for more polish" It is not released and over 6 mos. later it has been scaled back and is still months away according to their own reports. That is not misjudging a date - that is giving a release date they know is not possible, otherwise known as a lie. But hey, spin it any way you want to maintain your croberts worship level. When is croberts advancement to sainthood scheduled?
Post by: Orgetorix on September 09, 2017, 12:23:30 AM
I suspect one of the games (SC or SQ42) to release in 3 or 4 years from now, and the other to come out sometime after that.
Based on what?
I already answered this early in this thread, around page 70.
And I disagree about Chris Roberts lying about when things would be released, otherwise you would have to say every single developer is a liar when ever they have something that is late, I dont't call them liars unless there is actual proof that when they gave the release date they knew it was not possible. Chris Roberts has always been bad at giving good release dates, it is one of his flaws among his perfectionism and his management style, and this is all stuff I knew before I put my $60 into this game.
I feel for you, I really do feel for you.
I already gave you one homework assignment, to study what a Ponzi Scheme is and correlate it with SC's current funding model.
Your next assignment after that is to watch both live streams form GamesCon '16 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z-3YBuFI3iI), and GamesCon '17 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nIEGbOK0cAE) in their entirety. You will compare and contrast the promises made by Chris Roberts in both, and you will also note any, and all differences between the demo's shown.
After that we will have a discussion on whether Chris Roberts knew that the promises he was making in 2016 were completely unattainable, ie... complete and total lies, malice aforethought, mens rhea? Or were the statements that Chris Roberts made caused by his pathological perfectionism. Can that dysfunction solely excuse him from spewing patently false statements out of his ass on stage?
If you still think that researching the details of what Chris Roberts has repeatedly promised, and repeatedly failed to deliver, pertaining to SC, is an act of futility. Then I would have to advise you that your best bet is to stop posting here. Because really, what's the point then?
Post by: Moeis on September 09, 2017, 12:26:36 AM
I suspect one of the games (SC or SQ42) to release in 3 or 4 years from now, and the other to come out sometime after that.
Based on what?
I already answered this early in this thread, around page 70.
And I disagree about Chris Roberts lying about when things would be released, otherwise you would have to say every single developer is a liar when ever they have something that is late, I don't call them liars unless there is actual proof that when they gave the release date they knew it was not possible. Chris Roberts has always been bad at giving good release dates, it is one of his flaws among his perfectionism and his management style, and this is all stuff I knew before I put my $60 into this game.
What you are describing is not to far from "Cult of Personality". Believe what you want its your money. I paraphrase - "We are delaying 3.0 until Dec 2016 for more polish" It is not released and over 6 mos. later it has been scaled back and is still months away according to their own reports. That is not misjudging a date - that is giving a release date they know is not possible, otherwise known as a lie. But hey, spin it any way you want to maintain your croberts worship level. When is croberts advancement to sainthood scheduled?
Saying I worship Chris Roberts is a personal insult. /rolleyes
You know nothing about me.
It is not cult thinking, it is not worship, it was fully knowing exactly what my money was going into with all the risks associated with it, also knowing about Chris Roberts and all of his faults. And SC/SQ42 was far from biggest reason why I pledged in the first place, the 2 games are only a very small reason.
Post by: Exitramp on September 09, 2017, 12:45:52 AM
Saying I worship Chris Roberts is a personal insult. /rolleyes
You know nothing about me.
It is not cult thinking, it is not worship, it was fully knowing exactly what my money was going into with all the risks associated with it, also knowing about Chris Roberts and all of his faults.
The thing is, people who belong to a cult don't realise they are in one until they've left. Everything you've posted here already demonstrates a massive lack of critical thinking towards Chris Roberts and CIG.
At some point in the future when all this has finally collapsed you're going to take a step back and say to yourself 'WTF was I thinking'.
Post by: Orgetorix on September 09, 2017, 12:53:37 AM
Saying I worship Chris Roberts is a personal insult. /rolleyes
You know nothing about me.
It is not cult thinking, it is not worship, it was fully knowing exactly what my money was going into with all the risks associated with it, also knowing about Chris Roberts and all of his faults. And SC/SQ42 was far from biggest reason why I pledged in the first place, the 2 games are only a very small reason.
If you have already studied all of Croberts faults, and after all of that you still decided that adding your own money to the bonfire was something you absolutely needed to do.
Then what really was your motivation?
Seriously that's the only traction you're going to get on this forum based on your previous responses...
Post by: Moeis on September 09, 2017, 12:53:39 AM
Saying I worship Chris Roberts is a personal insult. /rolleyes
You know nothing about me.
It is not cult thinking, it is not worship, it was fully knowing exactly what my money was going into with all the risks associated with it, also knowing about Chris Roberts and all of his faults.
The thing is, people who belong to a cult don't realise they are in one until they've left. Everything you've posted here already demonstrates a massive lack of critical thinking towards Chris Roberts and CIG.
At some point in the future when all this has finally collapsed you're going to take a step back and say 'What the fuck was I thinking'.
Nope, nothing I posted here demonstrated anything you are saying. How many times do I have to say that everything that has been happening was something I fully expected to happen because I know the history of Chris Roberts? I knew exactly what I was getting into, I knew exactly it was going to be a turbulent and long development full of drama and massive delays. Like I said, me putting in my $60 wasn't even mainly for SC/SQ42 in the first place, it was about being a voice towards the industry.
You guys do not seem to get that, and then you claim I don't have the critical thinking skills? /rolleyes
Post by: Moeis on September 09, 2017, 12:55:01 AM
Saying I worship Chris Roberts is a personal insult. /rolleyes
You know nothing about me.
It is not cult thinking, it is not worship, it was fully knowing exactly what my money was going into with all the risks associated with it, also knowing about Chris Roberts and all of his faults. And SC/SQ42 was far from biggest reason why I pledged in the first place, the 2 games are only a very small reason.
If you have already studied all of Croberts faults, and after all of that you still decided that adding your own money to the bonfire was something you absolutely needed to do.
Then what really was your motivation?
Seriously that's the only traction you're going to get on this forum based on you previous responses...
I made a new thread about my motivations and how I already got my $60 worth
http://www.dereksmart.com/forum/index.php?topic=79.0
Post by: Bootcha on September 09, 2017, 01:42:22 AM
Try to engage each other without falling back on a label. Make your arguments, that's fine.
Post by: Backer42 on September 09, 2017, 04:52:02 AM
Proof attached covering the time span since Star Citizen is in production.Assuming the primary platform of that 2011 CryEngine still exists in 2022 (I doubt it, Windows PC is on its way out). From where do another 160 million dollars of funding come from?Windows PC is far from being on the way out. People have been saying that PC gaming is dying for many decades now, and there is no indication that PC gaming or even Windows PC is going to "die".
There is a reason why Microsoft is in panic mode since 2015.
There is a reason why publishers turned Chris Roberts down.
You evaded the question about the additional funding.
Quote
Also I doubt Amazon is going to abandon Lumberyard any time soon.Amazon doesn't care about PC gaming, Lumberyard is a cross platform engine.
Post by: Moeis on September 09, 2017, 05:00:55 AM
Proof attached covering the time span since Star Citizen is in production.Assuming the primary platform of that 2011 CryEngine still exists in 2022 (I doubt it, Windows PC is on its way out). From where do another 160 million dollars of funding come from?Windows PC is far from being on the way out. People have been saying that PC gaming is dying for many decades now, and there is no indication that PC gaming or even Windows PC is going to "die".
There is a reason why Microsoft is in panic mode since 2015.
There is a reason why publishers turned Chris Roberts down.
You evaded the question about the additional funding.QuoteAlso I doubt Amazon is going to abandon Lumberyard any time soon.Amazon doesn't care about PC gaming, Lumberyard is a cross platform engine.
I am sorry, but no, just no. Android/iOS are serving a different market than Windows is, that is literally a bad comparison to make, and the PC gaming market has been growing for years now, while the console market has been shrinking. The comparison you are making is like trying to compare the market share of Cars to the market share of Airplanes, they are all modes of transportation, but using your logic airplanes are on their way out because there are more cars than airplanes.
There is also a reason why publishers turned down people like Larian Studios and Obsidian for the kind of games they wanted to make.
Lumberyard is can still be used for PC Gaming, so no reason to believe it will go away.
There is nothing to say about funding, currently they keep on increasing in funds.
Post by: Motto on September 09, 2017, 05:06:11 AM
We will know things are really bad if they move their office to Hull.
The E.L.E. when moving to Slough with David Brent as Managing Director?
Post by: Motto on September 09, 2017, 05:08:24 AM
This industry is one of the most difficult to get into. So people don't just leave without a good reason.
Or being forced to, either by not getting a contract renewed or actually being forced out the door.
Post by: N0mad on September 09, 2017, 05:21:29 AM
Assuming the primary platform of that 2011 CryEngine still exists in 2022 (I doubt it, Windows PC is on its way out). From where do another 160 million dollars of funding come from?Proof attached covering the time span since Star Citizen is in production.
That chart has nothing to do with your assertion about Windows PC being on its way out - you need the absolute numbers to claim that, not the % market share.
Post by: Backer42 on September 09, 2017, 05:32:43 AM
There is nothing to say about funding, currently they keep on increasing in funds.You mean they keep in increasing in liabilities aka debt.
But this isn't going much longer, here is the freshly made shell firm https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/company/10934694 which is most likely going to hold all the IP rights, while the backer debt ends up elsewhere. Derek Smart was right, this is going to end with people in jail.
Post by: the_wolfmann on September 09, 2017, 06:11:27 AM
You mean they keep in increasing in liabilities aka debt.
But this isn't going much longer, here is the freshly made shell firm https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/company/10934694 which is most likely going to hold all the IP rights, while the backer debt ends up elsewhere. Derek Smart was right, this is going to end with people in jail.
Very interesting timing that... August 29th.
Post by: Motto on September 09, 2017, 06:14:47 AM
So, they are trying to get the IP(s) into a separate shell. Are they about to lose it all to Coutts because they're behind on payments? Or just running for a bankruptcy construction where they shed all the current debts and restart with the money left? Without having to keep any of the old promises?
This probably is part of the story Derek has been hinting about. Oh man, I wish he'd got the all clear already :f5: :supaburn: :f5: :supaburn:
Post by: BrightSpark on September 09, 2017, 07:32:27 AM
Post by: dsmart on September 09, 2017, 08:47:30 AM
I suspect one of the games (SC or SQ42) to release in 3 or 4 years from now, and the other to come out sometime after that.Assuming the primary platform of that 2011 CryEngine still exists in 2022 (I doubt it, Windows PC is on its way out). From where do another 160 million dollars of funding come from?
Windows PC is far from being on the way out. People have been saying that PC gaming is dying for many decades now, and there is no indication that PC gaming or even Windows PC is going to "die". Also I doubt Amazon is going to abandon Lumberyard any time soon.
Star Citizen's success or failure has nothing to do with Lumberyard. And no, I don't expect that this train-wreck is going to be around in 2018, let alone 2022.
Post by: dsmart on September 09, 2017, 08:49:37 AM
I suspect one of the games (SC or SQ42) to release in 3 or 4 years from now, and the other to come out sometime after that.
Based on what? The supporters of SC are actually doing the things they accuse DS of doing? MAKING STUFF UP! Game was supposed to be out years ago, and that's straight from the mouth of croberts. All DS does is take the information spewed forth from croberts and co. and uses his experience in the industry to explain why delay upon delay is occurring, why they will deplete funds prior to releasing the full game (which is no longer what was initially promised), and gives his opinions.
croberts has outright lied to you and all your other SC brethren,("3.0 will be released Dec 2016"), why do you have such blind faith in croberts? What has he done to prove to anyone that he will come through in the end?
What croberts excels at is marketing - lots of pretty pictures, videos, R&D demos to suck people in - They have accomplished nothing since Dec. 2016. The 3.0 he announced back then has been shrunk and delayed, shrunk and delayed. I ask again, what has croberts done besides make grandiose promises that have been scaled back and still only have a tech demo alpha to show for it? After 6 +years.
I pledged back in Oct 2012. I got out last year. Not because of anything DS wrote, but because it was pretty easy to see all the red flags popping up on this project. It was no longer the game I pledged my money towards.
I actually quoted his past history of foolish decisions (http://www.dereksmart.com/forum/index.php?topic=34.msg3815#msg3815) in the other forum. It's eye-opening, to say the least.
Post by: Orgetorix on September 09, 2017, 08:52:04 AM
You mean they keep in increasing in liabilities aka debt.
But this isn't going much longer, here is the freshly made shell firm https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/company/10934694 which is most likely going to hold all the IP rights, while the backer debt ends up elsewhere. Derek Smart was right, this is going to end with people in jail.
CLOUD IMPERIUM RIGHTS LTD.
Lol, sure looks like it.
Post by: dsmart on September 09, 2017, 09:02:27 AM
I suspect one of the games (SC or SQ42) to release in 3 or 4 years from now, and the other to come out sometime after that.
Based on what?
I already answered this early in this thread, around page 70.
And I disagree about Chris Roberts lying about when things would be released, otherwise you would have to say every single developer is a liar when ever they have something that is late, I dont't call them liars unless there is actual proof that when they gave the release date they knew it was not possible. Chris Roberts has always been bad at giving good release dates, it is one of his flaws among his perfectionism and his management style, and this is all stuff I knew before I put my $60 into this game.
Are you serious right now?
He went up on stage and LIED about the state of 3.0. I was told this long BEFORE he actually DID it. And I wrote about it. Then he went and DID it.
How on Earth would a developer make a statement in Aug 2016 about a 3.0 build coming out in Dec 2016, then when the first dev schedule is released in April 2017, it was NOTHING like the Aug 2016 schedule, not to mention completely changed, with items missing, others added etc.
He LIED. Pure and simple.
I am a software dev, and there is no way that I would say a build was due out in 4 months, then a year later it's not. Especially if the items in the schedule remain largely unchanged, and have no reasonable explanation for the delay.
And then, even after I wrote in May 2016 (http://dereksmart.com/forums/reply/5276/) that sources told me the 3.0 schedule was fiction, shortly after that in Aug 2016 - ahead of the GC2017 disaster - they seemingly fessed up to it by not only removing the delivery aim dates from the schedule (http://www.dereksmart.com/forum/index.php?topic=29.msg2676#msg2676), but also completely revising it again.
It's now Sept 2017 and 3.0 is nowhere near completed. Aside from the fact that, as per yesterday's Sept 8th schedule analysis (http://www.dereksmart.com/forum/index.php?topic=29.msg3824#msg3824), several items that previously had release dates, no longer do.
And as per the latest AtV burndown (https://youtu.be/JdS8q2_d76o?t=511) (FF to 08:31) that preceded the release, they are apparently prepping to change how the testing works. He never even mention the word "Evocati". So there is a very good chance that something is about to change.
Current test schedule: Dev -> QA -> Evocati -> PTU -> Live
Only they know what they're going to change, but if I were to hazard a guess, I would say that they will probably release self-contained "levels" like what was seen at GC2017, and pass them off as some kind of minimal testing so they don't have to explain WHY they still don't have the planets and space areas promised for 3.0.
Post by: dsmart on September 09, 2017, 09:09:06 AM
There is nothing to say about funding, currently they keep on increasing in funds.You mean they keep in increasing in liabilities aka debt.
But this isn't going much longer, here is the freshly made shell firm https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/company/10934694 which is most likely going to hold all the IP rights, while the backer debt ends up elsewhere. Derek Smart was right, this is going to end with people in jail.
My Tweets from a few days ago are about this. Goons and I have been discussing it in my Discord secure channel. I actually wrote a scoop article about it, but have yet to publish it because I am awaiting some clarification from one of my primary sources about something I learned and which I wanted to include in it. Unfortunately, the main crux of this can't be made public by me or it will compromise sources who told me not to release it.
Stay tuned. It's bad.
Wauw, how did you find that one? That's huge :vince:
So, they are trying to get the IP(s) into a separate shell. Are they about to lose it all to Coutts because they're behind on payments? Or just running for a bankruptcy construction where they shed all the current debts and restart with the money left? Without having to keep any of the old promises?
This probably is part of the story Derek has been hinting about. Oh man, I wish he'd got the all clear already :f5: :supaburn: :f5: :supaburn:
Yes.
Post by: StanTheMan on September 09, 2017, 09:33:10 AM
Is that 5% a year? So in CIGs case we'd be talking 20 leavers a year or so. I think it's considerably fewer than that. Sounds like a very happy workforce overall then. Nice.
Actually a 10% turn over rate is considered a healthy turnover rate, and yes that is per year.
http://www.gallup.com/businessjournal/316/truth-about-turnover.aspx
*mod censored* :science:
Derek is a developer of some 40 years, I am a recruitment consultant of some 20 years. You appear to have sited some claim in a piece about SALES STAFF.
What experts tell you is not sufficient evidence for you, you prefer to seek out other opinions that might support your position and then try and use those to discredit the actual experts that don't agree with your claims. This is not a pathway to truth it is the way that biased people approach an issue to try and justify their beliefs.
*mod censored* :science:
Derek is not an isolated expert voice and I am not an isolated expert recruitment voice.
Post by: StanTheMan on September 09, 2017, 09:41:48 AM
Quote
I wasn't trying to deflect it to be about LOD, rather I was explaining why I feel you are so emotionally invested into Star Citizen, to the point of it effecting the rest of your life in a bad way.
This is an argument I hear from young adults, idiots and teenagers copying each other with what they think is a good retort.
It is childish and irrelevant what emotional state Derek or any of the rest of us are in in respect of Star Citizen.
The evidence speaks for itself.
No need for emotion.
Post by: StanTheMan on September 09, 2017, 09:56:34 AM
I suspect one of the games (SC or SQ42) to release in 3 or 4 years from now, and the other to come out sometime after that.
Based on what?
I already answered this early in this thread, around page 70.
And I disagree about Chris Roberts lying about when things would be released, otherwise you would have to say every single developer is a liar when ever they have something that is late, I dont't call them liars unless there is actual proof that when they gave the release date they knew it was not possible. Chris Roberts has always been bad at giving good release dates, it is one of his flaws among his perfectionism and his management style, and this is all stuff I knew before I put my $60 into this game.
This illustrates your naivety and is evidence of your age and lack of experience in the world of work.
Whilst technically you are correct that people lie all the time, the REALITY is that there are accepted norms in professional circles and that CROBERTS has greatly overstated his position such that it is reasonable to call him a LIAR versus some other developer whose schedule slipped (because that would be within expected industry norms or is otherwise reasonably explained)
Another reason why the lay person is idiotic to ignore expert opinion in favour of their own opinion.
Post by: StanTheMan on September 09, 2017, 10:02:19 AM
Quote
Saying I worship Chris Roberts is a personal insult. /rolleyes
You know nothing about me.
It is not cult thinking, it is not worship, it was fully knowing exactly what my money was going into with all the risks associated with it, also knowing about Chris Roberts and all of his faults.
This claim of yours is simply incorrect unless you can, at the very least, read minds.
If you can read minds, I would be after a Nobel prize and would be kicking myself I didnt take up James Randi on his £1mil challenge.
Post by: Moeis on September 09, 2017, 05:37:25 PM
Is that 5% a year? So in CIGs case we'd be talking 20 leavers a year or so. I think it's considerably fewer than that. Sounds like a very happy workforce overall then. Nice.
Actually a 10% turn over rate is considered a healthy turnover rate, and yes that is per year.
http://www.gallup.com/businessjournal/316/truth-about-turnover.aspx
If you have sources to show that points the way that CIG has a higher turn over rate than normal, provide some numbers to show how many people CIG has lost per year, then I would
*mod censored* :science:
Derek is a developer of some 40 years, I am a recruitment consultant of some 20 years. You appear to have sited some claim in a piece about SALES STAFF.
What experts tell you is not sufficient evidence for you, you prefer to seek out other opinions that might support your position and then try and use those to discredit the actual experts that don't agree with your claims. This is not a pathway to truth it is the way that biased people approach an issue to try and justify their beliefs.
*mod censored* :science:
Derek is not an isolated expert voice and I am not an isolated expert recruitment voice.
If you have sources to show what is considered a healthy turn over rate for tech companies and provide some numbers to show how many people CIG has lost per year, then I would be interested in reading such sources.
I did find this article that talks about how tech companies have the highest turn over rate
http://www.techrepublic.com/blog/career-management/tech-companies-have-highest-turnover-rate/
This article talks about what can the tech industry do to help against such a high turnover rate
http://www.gethppy.com/employee-engagement/can-tech-industry-solve-employee-tenure-problem
Post by: Moeis on September 09, 2017, 05:46:11 PM
I suspect one of the games (SC or SQ42) to release in 3 or 4 years from now, and the other to come out sometime after that.
Based on what?
I already answered this early in this thread, around page 70.
And I disagree about Chris Roberts lying about when things would be released, otherwise you would have to say every single developer is a liar when ever they have something that is late, I dont't call them liars unless there is actual proof that when they gave the release date they knew it was not possible. Chris Roberts has always been bad at giving good release dates, it is one of his flaws among his perfectionism and his management style, and this is all stuff I knew before I put my $60 into this game.
This illustrates your naivety and is evidence of your age and lack of experience in the world of work.
Whilst technically you are correct that people lie all the time, the REALITY is that there are accepted norms in professional circles and that CROBERTS has greatly overstated his position such that it is reasonable to call him a LIAR versus some other developer whose schedule slipped (because that would be within expected industry norms or is otherwise reasonably explained)
Another reason why the lay person is idiotic to ignore expert opinion in favour of their own opinion.
First of all, don't assume my age or my experience in the work force, that is uncalled for, you know nothing about me, and really stop with the underhanded insults.
I look at what is normal for Chris Roberts himself, he has had this problem with release dates for decades. So while what he does is abnormal for the industry, it is normal for him cause he is really bad at it and he can't get himself to stop, and in the end his games still got released and were excellent games.
Post by: Moeis on September 09, 2017, 05:47:55 PM
Quote
Saying I worship Chris Roberts is a personal insult. /rolleyes
You know nothing about me.
It is not cult thinking, it is not worship, it was fully knowing exactly what my money was going into with all the risks associated with it, also knowing about Chris Roberts and all of his faults.
This claim of yours is simply incorrect unless you can, at the very least, read minds.
If you can read minds, I would be after a Nobel prize and would be kicking myself I didnt take up James Randi on his £1mil challenge.
What? What I said had nothing to do with reading minds, and everything to do with looking at history and knowing enough about the person.
Post by: N0mad on September 15, 2017, 01:19:54 AM
To my eyes, the screenshots don't look like they've shown off the actual AI behaviour graphs, but rather the mission creation logic. Which just looks like a visual scripting tool to me, nothing special in itself. Perhaps another example of CIG reinventing the wheel unnecessarily, whilst over-complicating it at the same time.
Post by: VeritasLiberos on September 15, 2017, 05:31:10 PM
Quote
Brian Chambers on Twitter: "We're getting closer. #StarCitizen #3.0"
https://twitter.com/ChambersArt/status/908598777056985089
Post by: Moeis on September 15, 2017, 05:37:41 PM
Meanwhile... :wtchris:QuoteBrian Chambers on Twitter: "We're getting closer. #StarCitizen #3.0"
https://twitter.com/ChambersArt/status/908598777056985089
Till they find more bugs and that graph shoots up again.
Post by: dsmart on September 15, 2017, 06:00:42 PM
Meantime, who recalls that time when I said they were going to chop up and shit out whatever they had as 3.0 because they simply cannot get it done by year end, let alone for ShitizenCon?
They already started.
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DJxlsl4UEAACBxP.jpg)
In last night's Star Citizen update, they proudly proclaimed that they had reduced their "must fix" issues by 50, reducing the count to 26. Except for one thing they said: "...some by fixing bugs and some shifted over to allow for a more focused polish of traversal".
What this means is that, as I've reported before, they're still removing/hiding items from 3.0 build. They started doing that in the previous dev schedule update (http://www.dereksmart.com/forum/index.php?topic=29.msg3824#msg3824), and they're still doing it as per this recent update.
This means is that, like the 3K+ bugs in current 2.6.3 update, they're removing features + bugs, in order to release "something" called 3.0.
My prediction for 3.0 is that it won't have any space<->planet traversal, and will just be a level you load into. Just like GC2017 showed.
Now comes this statement (https://robertsspaceindustries.com/spectrum/community/SC/forum/3/thread/so-question-about-the-new-shift-in-cig-s-burndown-/471958) about today's reveal. By the same guy who looked directly at the cameras at GC2017, and said that the build they were playing in the stream, was going to be the same build that Chris would be showcasing later - and which only had some things disabled.
Quote
I've been hearing this from a couple sources, so I wanted to take a moment to clarify how this process works.
Firstly, there is no "special" or "separate" build with specific features for Evocati. What we push to Evocati will be the most current build of 3.0 from our release branch that we feel is suitable for our immediate testing needs.
What this means is that like every Evocati build before it, it will still contain many, many bugs impacting the overall Star Citizen experience we hope to achieve when Alpha 3.0 eventually launches, but that the most pressing bugs standing in the way of testing specific features we are prioritizing at that moment have been hopefully eliminated. Once this is done, we can push a build to Evocati and direct them to concentrated testing of those specific features within the overall 3.0 branch.
As Erin said in Burndown yesterday, we intend to sweep through game system by game system, starting first with traversing between the moons of Crusader. As milestones are hit, and waves of bugs associated with additional features are smashed, we will push further builds to Evocati, then to PTU, and finally to our live environment, which itself is still a test bed for Star Citizen Alpha.
Meanwhile, remember back when I said GC2017 was a hacked version they put together for the show? Sure you do.
(https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/166260954412089344/358420245192376323/unknown.png)
Post by: dsmart on September 15, 2017, 07:28:55 PM
Erin, verbatim as transcribed on SA (https://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3800238&userid=0&perpage=40&pagenumber=2210#post476432475)
Star Citizen: Around the Verse Sep 14, 2017
@ 08:23
Erin Roberts:
Quote
I wanna get... I wanna go to Evocati... I wanna make sure the first thing we can do is ensure we can traverse the system easily and well, and that's all this set of bugs is about, is we... you know... from getting in, taking off, ATC working, QT-ing working, being able to go to locations, all that kinda stuff, we just get THAT working and so it's not... it's not a nightm... you know I'm not going into maps all the time and trying to work out where I can jump places and so forth... you can do that kind of stuff and we have what I think is a really good start for EVOCATI cos it's a lot of FUN, it's FUN.
You go down to planets you do some EVENTS. And THEN, once we get this set of twenty, you know, SIX bugs left, you know... and don't forget these are the 26 bugs I want fixed to go to EVOCATI with, but I'm SURE we'll fix a bunch of other STUFF, you know, at the same time and stuff like that... and then we basically go and get that in, and then once we get that set of BUGS... you know, those set of, uh, BUGS... then what we're gonna do again is sit... sit down with TARD and then say, 'Right! What's um... what's the next feature we wanna focus on', and then pick another say ten, twenty um... like FEATURES... let's get TRADING maybe working properly and then maybe... ten or fifteen features...
(A dev raises his hand to speak at this point and is ignored)
(https://i.imgur.com/PQ7UWxe.png)
... and we say right, here's the... here's the seventeen BUGS for that, that's the next release for EVOCATI, let's get all this stuff worked on and then we fix all sorts of stuff in the background, and we just basically PICK a FEATURE at a time, NAIL IT DOWN and just keep on going that way and that's how we're gonna close this out.
"So the bug countdown to each point release is what's being given to the backers, Erin is in there telling his guys to work on these buglists and we're being shown it in a video, the backers will then be watching these buglists as a countdown to the next release - so Erin is removing himself from the equation and putting his devs right up against the backers and that's what this little piece of theatre was about and the change to the point release schedule.
Hey Erin Roberts, go fuck yourself. And fuck you devs if you are still stupid enough to be working for that cunt."
Meanwhile over there... (https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/comments/70c7m9/putting_the_individual_devs_on_blast_like_that/)
Post by: Orgetorix on September 15, 2017, 09:28:32 PM
Quote from: TouchdownTim55
Leaders and project managers need to shield their employees from the customers/other leaders and act as the go between. -TouchdownTim55 (https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/comments/70c7m9/putting_the_individual_devs_on_blast_like_that/)
Absofuckinglutelyright! I've had to report to more then one "Manager" that didn't understand this quintessential fact about what their main job function really was.
Mainly a good Project Manager's job boils down to getting upper management off the back of the guys in the trenches, so that they can get the shit that needs to be done, up and running. Shielding them from the micromanaging bullshit coming from a dingle berry that has a hard time just dressing himself in the morning, let alone actually knowing what shit needs to be done, and how to get it done right.
I have great empathy for the real devs on the floor. The guys working their asses off, and doing the best that they can. Just to pull a salary, and feed their families. What do they get for all that effort and hard work? They have to deal with an absolute fucktard like Erin.
If you listen closely you can hear their muttered refrains. "I can't shit out Tiffany Cuff Links on command you D-Bag..."
I can see from this exchange, that Erin has already checked out. All it looks like he's doing now is a study in blame shifting.
Post by: Backer42 on September 16, 2017, 02:48:32 AM
Post by: Motto on September 16, 2017, 02:49:01 AM
And they're not even hiding it anymore; straight from the diffchecker (https://www.diffchecker.com/ZSKS4fRN)
This week we’ve got good news on the bug fixing front as we’ve taken a giant leap toward our objective of getting Star Citizen Alpha 3.0 into the hands of the Evocati. Last week’s report indicated a total of 76 must-fix issues and this week we are down to 26. While a number of these bugs were simply resolved due to the team’s usual endeavors, our directors reviews have been keenly focused on core player loops which has led to a redefinition of must-fix. In short, we’ve decided that we need to get this into Evocati hands sooner rather than later. We are simply going to accept that there will still be additional issues to resolve, but we want your feedback now, so we have readjusted our numbers to reflect bugs that are blocking the core experience (gameplay loops, missions, commodities and shopping, to name a few). We want you traversing the universe, landing on planets and generally testing 3.0 while we continue to polish and bug fix more features that can then be passed along for testing. We can then prioritize any new issues that come up, but it will accelerate the process so we can advance 3.0 much quicker to the PU and ultimately to our entire player base. We’ll be back next week with another update on how we’re doing.
Post by: Aya Reiko on September 16, 2017, 03:59:47 AM
Remember this:
(http://imageshack.com/a/img922/7743/dcg85p.png)
Don't get surprised if only Daymar is added to the official 3.0 release. Maybe one more moon at most. No space travel. Just separate levels like the GC version.
Post by: dsmart on September 16, 2017, 06:15:34 AM
Erin is seeing his life of luxury and his yearly 300K salary + benefits going up in smoke in the short run, with the possibility to have to pay back everything gained in the last years. So he is as desperate to get a working 3.0 build out of the door as Chris is. What an ass he is in that clip. It's almost as if it's filmed with a hidden camera to expose some major bad thing. He fits right in in that scenario.
And they're not even hiding it anymore; straight from the diffchecker (https://www.diffchecker.com/ZSKS4fRN)
This week we’ve got good news on the bug fixing front as we’ve taken a giant leap toward our objective of getting Star Citizen Alpha 3.0 into the hands of the Evocati. Last week’s report indicated a total of 76 must-fix issues and this week we are down to 26. While a number of these bugs were simply resolved due to the team’s usual endeavors, our directors reviews have been keenly focused on core player loops which has led to a redefinition of must-fix. In short, we’ve decided that we need to get this into Evocati hands sooner rather than later. We are simply going to accept that there will still be additional issues to resolve, but we want your feedback now, so we have readjusted our numbers to reflect bugs that are blocking the core experience (gameplay loops, missions, commodities and shopping, to name a few). We want you traversing the universe, landing on planets and generally testing 3.0 while we continue to polish and bug fix more features that can then be passed along for testing. We can then prioritize any new issues that come up, but it will accelerate the process so we can advance 3.0 much quicker to the PU and ultimately to our entire player base. We’ll be back next week with another update on how we’re doing.
Yeah, as I wrote, they basically removed 50 bugs from the list, fixing some, obviously leaving others in the existing pool of 3K+ bugs already in 2.6.3. The reason is simple. They can't get 3.0 done in time for CC2017, and they're just going to "release" something called 3.0 and call it a day. It's a brilliant plan if you ask me.
:bahgawd:
(https://i.imgur.com/zUjxALh.png)
(https://i.imgur.com/d8yRPpp.jpg)
Post by: Serendipity on September 16, 2017, 06:39:36 AM
A lot of the community have requested them to just release whst they have, (totally ignoring the meaning of the word 'blocker'), and it seems they have listened. They must be getting a little desperate to just get it out of the door though. It is a little embarrassing.
26 little bugs in the code, 26 little bugs. Knock one off the load, compile the code, find 64 little bugs in the code.
Post by: N0mad on September 16, 2017, 06:53:48 AM
Post by: Serendipity on September 16, 2017, 06:58:44 AM
Post by: dsmart on September 16, 2017, 08:58:04 AM
There's no chance of a general release before Citizencon now I don't think. Evocati might get their hands on it though.
A lot of the community have requested them to just release whst they have, (totally ignoring the meaning of the word 'blocker'), and it seems they have listened. They must be getting a little desperate to just get it out of the door though. It is a little embarrassing.
26 little bugs in the code, 26 little bugs. Knock one off the load, compile the code, find 64 little bugs in the code.
It's not that simple.
But it also plays into Chris's recent statements about early access. So if they're just going to ignore/hide bugs, cut stuff, then release what they have, that basically moves toward that EA goal. Though I don't see how it makes the project any less early access or not, because even in EA, you still have to decide what builds to release and which not to. e.g. the last patch I released for LoD was back in March; and I haven't released another build since then because quite a few blockers are pending as part of the major (vehicles) change that we did, as well as the UE4 parallel porting effort.
But that's the thing with early access, you're not entitled to anything because all you're doing is paying to access the game in dev, base on what the devs want to release. Star Citizen is different because technically, as I wrote here (http://dereksmart.com/forums/reply/5785/), it's been in EA since the first hangar module, except that they weren't calling it that. Also, they were the ones building up the expectations of backers - especially having raised $160M while making insurmountable promises with release dates. In EA, they don't need to do any of that. Just do regular updates letting backers know what's going on, then release a build when they think it's ready. It's no different from how internal dev works.
Problem is, they simply cannot wipe away the previous approach to the project by simply announcing that they're in EA, so no more dates, we'll release a build when it's ready etc.
The fact that they're going to now release the builds to backers in stages via Evocati, is fucking hilarious to me because I remember back when I indicated that releasing a massive game in a "staggered release (http://lodgame.com/faqs/what-is-early-access/)" fashion was the best way to do it when dealing with public builds, Shitizens were having a field day attacking me. Oh how soon we forget.
None of this matters because the project is FUBAR anyway.
Post by: Serendipity on September 16, 2017, 09:09:37 AM
Get a game made, get it out and iterate.
Quote
None of this matters because the project is FUBAR anyway.
Not sure that's true for two reasons. One, it's perfectly recognisable as a video game in development and two, I don't believe it's fucked up far enough to cause catastrophic collapse.
Post by: dsmart on September 16, 2017, 09:58:02 AM
AP:
October 2014, Cloud Imperium Games sells concept art of a spaceship for $600.
(https://i.imgur.com/ERvJpd6.png)
September 2017, Cloud Imperium Games gives a status update on the $600 spaceship, they haven't starting building it yet.
Post by: Motto on September 16, 2017, 10:42:02 AM
Post by: StanTheMan on September 16, 2017, 06:59:24 PM
The early access comment doesn't mean much at all imho, it's just clarifying that whatever they release will be added to, it's just MVP by another name.
Get a game made, get it out and iterate.QuoteNone of this matters because the project is FUBAR anyway.
Not sure that's true for two reasons. One, it's perfectly recognisable as a video game in development and two, I don't believe it's fucked up far enough to cause catastrophic collapse.
This is why you sound like an idiot.
An industry vet tells you something and you think your opinion matters.
It doesn't because you are not an expert and he is...
The sensible thing is to shut up and listen.
You might learn something and for free !
Post by: Serendipity on September 18, 2017, 01:57:18 AM
The early access comment doesn't mean much at all imho, it's just clarifying that whatever they release will be added to, it's just MVP by another name.
Get a game made, get it out and iterate.QuoteNone of this matters because the project is FUBAR anyway.
Not sure that's true for two reasons. One, it's perfectly recognisable as a video game in development and two, I don't believe it's fucked up far enough to cause catastrophic collapse.
This is why you sound like an idiot.
An industry vet tells you something and you think your opinion matters.
It doesn't because you are not an expert and he is...
The sensible thing is to shut up and listen.
You might learn something and for free !
This is an industry vet who is on record raging about burning it to the ground, calling the CEO all manner of insulting names, hating on developers, fans and executives almost every day on multiple web sites for years, self admitted to being at war and you think I should take his word for it because he's worked in the industry? This makes you think I'm the one looking stupid?
Blindly believing someone who has been proven to be wrong over and over again when commenting about SC just because they've produced a video game in the past, now that right there is idiocy.
I question whatever I don't agree with no matter where it comes from because I'm not a group think type and like to make my mind up for myself.
Post by: nightfire on September 18, 2017, 02:00:12 AM
Blindly believing someone who has been proven to be wrong over and over again when commenting about SC just because they've produced a video game in the past, now that right there is idiocy.
Amazing that you would come to this conclusion about Chris Roberts!
Post by: Spunky Munkee on September 18, 2017, 04:05:21 AM
Post by: StanTheMan on September 18, 2017, 08:28:37 AM
The early access comment doesn't mean much at all imho, it's just clarifying that whatever they release will be added to, it's just MVP by another name.
Get a game made, get it out and iterate.QuoteNone of this matters because the project is FUBAR anyway.
Not sure that's true for two reasons. One, it's perfectly recognisable as a video game in development and two, I don't believe it's fucked up far enough to cause catastrophic collapse.
This is why you sound like an idiot.
An industry vet tells you something and you think your opinion matters.
It doesn't because you are not an expert and he is...
The sensible thing is to shut up and listen.
You might learn something and for free !
This is an industry vet who is on record raging about burning it to the ground, calling the CEO all manner of insulting names, hating on developers, fans and executives almost every day on multiple web sites for years, self admitted to being at war and you think I should take his word for it because he's worked in the industry? This makes you think I'm the one looking stupid?
Blindly believing someone who has been proven to be wrong over and over again when commenting about SC just because they've produced a video game in the past, now that right there is idiocy.
I question whatever I don't agree with no matter where it comes from because I'm not a group think type and like to make my mind up for myself.
You compound your stupid positions with more idiotic comments.
You could be right about all the above and it would still be the intelligent thing to do to listen to Derek and not the little voices in your own head.
Post by: dsmart on September 18, 2017, 10:09:35 AM
BAM Takedown! :woop:
I thought the "has been proven to be wrong over and over again when commenting about SC" part was a nice touch to the delusion. :lol:
Post by: Orgetorix on September 18, 2017, 07:54:02 PM
I question whatever I don't agree with...
And that's exactly where you have failed...
“An error does not become truth by reason of multiplied propagation, nor does truth become error because nobody sees it. Truth stands, even if there be no public support. It is self sustained.” -Mahatma Gandhi
Post by: Serendipity on September 19, 2017, 02:22:41 AM
I question whatever I don't agree with...
And that's exactly where you have failed...
“An error does not become truth by reason of multiplied propagation, nor does truth become error because nobody sees it. Truth stands, even if there be no public support. It is self sustained.” -Mahatma Gandhi
I disagree. With you, not Ghandi. Questioning everything is part of my personality, sorry.
Post by: N0mad on September 19, 2017, 02:33:24 AM
I disagree. With you, not Ghandi. Questioning everything is part of my personality, sorry.
Is coming to the wrong conclusions part of your personality as well?
Post by: Serendipity on September 19, 2017, 02:34:02 AM
I disagree. With you, not Ghandi. Questioning everything is part of my personality, sorry.
Is coming to the wrong conclusions part of your personality as well?
Well nobody's perfect!
Post by: GaryII on September 19, 2017, 02:51:35 AM
Well nobody's perfect!
Yes, and some people will learn this hard way...
Like in CR and SC case:
His Wing Commander games were great...
but then downfall started...
Freelancer...
Hollywood...
and finally SC...
He is now is like old NBA star:
1) mind says: Yes
2) body says: can't do anymore
Post by: Serendipity on September 19, 2017, 02:55:34 AM
Well nobody's perfect!
Yes, and some people will learn this hard way...
Like in CR and SC case:
His Wing Commander games were great...
but then downfall started...
Freelancer...
Hollywood...
and finally SC...
Freelancer still being played to this day... hardly a failure. Imagine what he might have achieved if he'd been given more time and money...
Hollywood wasn't a total failure. Lucky number slevin and Lord of War were reasonably well received.
As for SC, imagine what he might acheive with more time and money than he's ever had before.
Post by: Motto on September 19, 2017, 03:16:31 AM
Questioning everything is part of my personality, sorry.
Okay. So you question everything Chris says and everything CIG does. And you question everything Derek writes and you question everything we debate here on this forum. You put all that together to come to a conclusion for yourself. And then that conclusion is to give Chris the benefit of the doubt and assume that Derek most likey is wrong? :vince:
The only thing you should question, are your own conclusions. Try a week to live to the exact opposite view of your own conclusions. It'll probably open your eyes...
Post by: N0mad on September 19, 2017, 03:19:26 AM
Freelancer still being played to this day... hardly a failure. Imagine what he might have achieved if he'd been given more time and money...
Hollywood wasn't a total failure. Lucky number slevin and Lord of War were reasonably well received.
Wing Commander was a success, I personally never played them because they seemed like cheap Star Wars knock offs and I was too busy playing X-Wing vs Tie Fighter to bother.
I think we can all agree that SC is Chris Robert's baby and he has absolute control over it. So here's the thing, has CR actually had a successful project since the Wing Commander Series? Bear in mind that in those days the scope of the game was constrained to what could fit on a 700Mb CD. Freelancer was a great game, but how much was CR involved after Microsoft stepped in to rescue the project - probably not very much, despite appearances. Again for the films, CR is listed as just a producer for these films, he's certainly not had a creative role making them either as director / editor or writer. On his IMDB his only writing / directing credits are for his games (Update - I forgot he wrote and directed the Wing Commander movie - sort of proves my point). I would argue that CR isn't some creative genius or great game programmer, he's a man with a dream, but that mostly involves copying ideas from everyone else and he's hopelessly out of his depth trying to create Star Citizen.
Also take a look at this, it's long but the guy has some pretty good points to make:
Update: I was barely half way through when I posted, but the guy cashed out of SC for over $7000 (see 28.10) !
Post by: GaryII on September 19, 2017, 03:29:33 AM
Freelancer still being played to this day... hardly a failure. Imagine what he might have achieved if he'd been given more time and money...
Hollywood wasn't a total failure. Lucky number slevin and Lord of War were reasonably well received.
1) A lot of games still being played to this day...it does not change fact, that MS saved that game NOT CR...
2) Even his (and here he was not even a director...) best movies lost millions of $, so its a failure:
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0425210/?ref_=nm_flmg_prd_12 (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0425210/?ref_=nm_flmg_prd_12)
Box Office
Budget: $27,000,000 (estimated)
Opening Weekend: £1,074,550 (UK) (24 February 2006)
Gross: $22,494,487 (USA) (14 July 2006)
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0399295/?ref_=nm_flmg_prd_14 (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0399295/?ref_=nm_flmg_prd_14)
Box Office
Budget: $50,000,000 (estimated)
Opening Weekend: $9,390,144 (USA) (16 September 2005)
Gross: $24,127,895 (USA) (28 October 2005)
And his directed Wing Commander: :D
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0131646/?ref_=nm_flmg_dr_5
Budget: $30,000,000 (estimated)
Gross: $11,576,087 (USA) (28 May 1999)
Post by: Serendipity on September 19, 2017, 04:50:12 AM
Questioning everything is part of my personality, sorry.
Okay. So you question everything Chris says and everything CIG does. And you question everything Derek writes and you question everything we debate here on this forum. You put all that together to come to a conclusion for yourself. And then that conclusion is to give Chris the benefit of the doubt and assume that Derek most likey is wrong? :vince:
The only thing you should question, are your own conclusions. Try a week to live to the exact opposite view of you own conclusions. It'll probably open your eyes...
Honestly, I think it's somewhere between blissful utopia and catastrophic collapse. They've obviously had their problems but it looks like they're beating them to me. Derek is just far too rabid a commentator to take seriously. It's impossible that every little thing they do or announce is fatally flawed in some way, yet Derek screams ELE or collapse or lying bastards every single time? It's just not realistic. He's been proven wrong on many occasions and been proven to be
When I first heard about Derek from him attaching himself to this project I pondered his message quite a lot. The longer it went on without any significant catastrophe the more it appeared BS. I don't need to go over all his failed predictions again I'm sure but there's 60 to 90 reasons in total.
Before SC I'd never heard of CR or DS so I've made my opinions of this project and the individuals involved just from reading and playing and listening. I've found Derek's methods to be severely lacking on many fronts. But that's just me. There are reasons he's less than popular amongst gamers you know.
I feel my eyes are open, I see quite well through them too.
Post by: N0mad on September 19, 2017, 04:58:12 AM
They've obviously had their problems but it looks like they're beating them to me.
Care to suggest some examples ? (before we do)
Post by: Ghostmaker on September 19, 2017, 05:01:26 AM
You mean after he'd missed deadline after deadline and gone over budget to the point where MS had to come in, buy the company, and kick him out?
Freelancer still being played to this day... hardly a failure. Imagine what he might have achieved if he'd been given more time and money...
Dude, seriously. Stop. Just stop. I liked Freelancer too, but I could tell it had been kludged together for release (particularly with the missions and single-player campaign). This is blatant fanboyism, not critical analysis, and all you're doing is confirming people's opinion of you as a shill.
Post by: GaryII on September 19, 2017, 05:09:33 AM
Derek is just far too rabid a commentator to take seriously. It's impossible that every little thing they do or announce is fatally flawed in some way, yet Derek screams ELE or collapse or lying bastards every single time? It's just not realistic. He's been proven wrong on many occasions and been proven to belyingusing hyperbole on many others, it's ruined his credibility.
I can agree that Derek is bit too dramatic, but in year 2017 is clear that he is right - SC project has major issues and promised game is impossible at this point...
So sooner or later Derek will hit correct SC failure date...
Post by: Motto on September 19, 2017, 05:10:52 AM
I feel my eyes are open, I see quite well through them too.
It's gonna be a real sight for you then, when the blinds fall off :D
Post by: Serendipity on September 19, 2017, 06:49:58 AM
You mean after he'd missed deadline after deadline and gone over budget to the point where MS had to come in, buy the company, and kick him out?
Freelancer still being played to this day... hardly a failure. Imagine what he might have achieved if he'd been given more time and money...
Dude, seriously. Stop. Just stop. I liked Freelancer too, but I could tell it had been kludged together for release (particularly with the missions and single-player campaign). This is blatant fanboyism, not critical analysis, and all you're doing is confirming people's opinion of you as a shill.
I've never played any of Chris' previous games. I'm not a fanboy.
Post by: Serendipity on September 19, 2017, 06:57:19 AM
They've obviously had their problems but it looks like they're beating them to me.
Care to suggest some examples ? (before we do)
The state of the original 2.0 release compared to now. Orders of magnitude more stable.
Star Marine scale miscommunication. Whoops.
Landing on planetary bodies. Looking much better in videos than the first attempts last year.
Flight model tweeks have made it more fun to fly.
Animations have improved a lot from first FPS attempts.
It's almost like they've released an alpha product and are steadily improving most of it.
The biggy is, of course, the networking. Fuck knows what will happen there. They keep saying they can solve the problem of MMO at high fidelity in a similar way to how Dual Universe is doing it. Appears plausible to me.
Post by: N0mad on September 19, 2017, 07:07:54 AM
https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/comments/711pmt/failuretoreport_talks_feature_creep_cig_behaviour/
https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen_refunds/comments/710sr4/failure2report_7k_backer_divests_from_sc_due_to/
Post by: N0mad on September 19, 2017, 07:22:03 AM
Quote
Orders of magnitude more stable.It crashed during the live GamesCom demo, and multiple times in the limited floor demo, so no, it's not stable. Not to mention Ramps of course.
Quote
Landing on planetary bodies. Looking much better in videos than the first attempts last year.Yes, well that's just the thing, in videos. This is probably the one thing they will eventually get working, but you'll need a huge graphics card to make it run smoothly and there won't be anything to do. When CIG started on this quest for planets it was new and exciting, but we've had moons in Elite Dangerous and planets in NMS since then, so it's really nothing special now.
Quote
Flight model tweeks have made it more fun to fly.That's purely subjective. Just looking at the in-atmosphere flying during the GamesCom demo the flight model doesn't look at all realistic, ships seem to be able to pivot around in mid air, almost as though they were using the space flight model rather than one suitable for an atmosphere.
Quote
Animations have improved a lot from first FPS attempts.Really? The animations in the GamesCom live demo were janky as hell. An NPC got off a stool by walking through it, they climbed stairs by treating it as a ramp. The model twitched when changing physics grids etc.
Quote
It's almost like they've released an alpha product and are steadily improving most of it.:vince: Really? where is it?
Quote
The biggy is, of course, the networking. Fuck knows what will happen there. They keep saying they can solve the problem of MMO at high fidelity in a similar way to how Dual Universe is doing it. Appears plausible to me.I agree !
Post by: Serendipity on September 19, 2017, 08:13:36 AM
QuoteOrders of magnitude more stable.It crashed during the live GamesCom demo, and multiple times in the limited floor demo, so no, it's not stable. Not to mention Ramps of course.QuoteLanding on planetary bodies. Looking much better in videos than the first attempts last year.Yes, well that's just the thing, in videos. This is probably the one thing they will eventually get working, but you'll need a huge graphics card to make it run smoothly and there won't be anything to do. When CIG started on this quest for planets it was new and exciting, but we've had moons in Elite Dangerous and planets in NMS since then, so it's really nothing special now.QuoteFlight model tweeks have made it more fun to fly.That's purely subjective. Just looking at the in-atmosphere flying during the GamesCom demo the flight model doesn't look at all realistic, ships seem to be able to pivot around in mid air, almost as though they were using the space flight model rather than one suitable for an atmosphere.QuoteAnimations have improved a lot from first FPS attempts.Really? The animations in the GamesCom live demo were janky as hell. An NPC got off a stool by walking through it, they climbed stairs by treating it as a ramp. The model twitched when changing physics grids etc.QuoteIt's almost like they've released an alpha product and are steadily improving most of it.:vince: Really? where is it?QuoteThe biggy is, of course, the networking. Fuck knows what will happen there. They keep saying they can solve the problem of MMO at high fidelity in a similar way to how Dual Universe is doing it. Appears plausible to me.I agree !
It didn't crash during Gamescom. That was 3.0 being played.
Not sure why you'll need a huge graphics card to load a procedural planetary body. It's not rendering anything beyond your vision. We'll find out soon enough.
Did you see the original animations from the very first implementation? Trust me, animations are much better.
Where is the alpha? Are you being silly? AC, PU, Star Marine etc. Alpha.
Post by: N0mad on September 19, 2017, 09:23:56 AM
Quote
It didn't crash during Gamescom. That was 3.0 being played.Hang on, yes it did. Did you not watch Chris Robert's presentation - it was hilarious.
Quote
Not sure why you'll need a huge graphics card to load a procedural planetary body. It's not rendering anything beyond your vision. We'll find out soon enough.All the show floor computers had GTX 1080s if memory serves, god knows how much RAM. But yes, we should find out soon.
Quote
Where is the alpha? Are you being silly? AC, PU, Star Marine etc. Alpha.OK, using the definitions for generic software development then there's an argument that we're in alpha. But games development is sort of it's own thing and looking at Wikipedia:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Video_game_development#Alpha
Quote
First playable
The first playable is the game version containing representative gameplay and assets,[149] this is the first version with functional major gameplay elements.[150] It is often based on the prototype created in pre-production.[151] Alpha and first playable are sometimes used to refer to a single milestone, however large projects require first playable before feature complete alpha.[150] First playable occurs 12 to 18 months before code release. It is sometimes referred to as the "Pre-Alpha" stage.[153]
Alpha
Alpha is the stage when key gameplay functionality is implemented, and assets are partially finished.[153] A game in alpha is feature complete, that is, game is playable and contains all the major features.[154] These features may be further revised based on testing and feedback.[153] Additional small, new features may be added, similarly planned, but unimplemented features may be dropped.[154] Programmers focus mainly on finishing the codebase, rather than implementing additions.[152] Alpha occurs eight to ten months before code release,[153] but this can vary significantly based on the scope of content and assets any given game has.
I'd argue that we're in pre-Alpha stage (after $160 million and 5 years). But, let's see what others think.
Post by: dsmart on September 19, 2017, 09:37:45 AM
I disagree. With you, not Ghandi. Questioning everything is part of my personality, sorry.
:lol: Would that be the "selective questioning" that you do here, whereby you question us, but not CIG?
Questioning everything is part of my personality, sorry.
Okay. So you question everything Chris says and everything CIG does. And you question everything Derek writes and you question everything we debate here on this forum. You put all that together to come to a conclusion for yourself. And then that conclusion is to give Chris the benefit of the doubt and assume that Derek most likey is wrong? :vince:
The only thing you should question, are your own conclusions. Try a week to live to the exact opposite view of your own conclusions. It'll probably open your eyes...
You beat me to it. :smuggo:
Post by: dsmart on September 19, 2017, 09:44:18 AM
That Failure2Report video seems to be getting plenty of attention:
https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/comments/711pmt/failuretoreport_talks_feature_creep_cig_behaviour/
https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen_refunds/comments/710sr4/failure2report_7k_backer_divests_from_sc_due_to/
Fake news! Or just another Derek Smart alt with a voice modifier :argh:
Post by: Motto on September 19, 2017, 09:45:25 AM
All the show floor computers had GTX 1080s if memory serves, god knows how much RAM. But yes, we should find out soon.
I posted the specs earlier on one of the boards here. It was the latest Intel i7 on 32 GB with 2 (?) GTX 1080 Titans. Huge specs.
Post by: dsmart on September 19, 2017, 09:47:50 AM
OK, using the definitions for generic software development then there's an argument that we're in alpha. But games development is sort of it's own thing and looking at Wikipedia:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Video_game_development#AlphaQuoteFirst playable
The first playable is the game version containing representative gameplay and assets,[149] this is the first version with functional major gameplay elements.[150] It is often based on the prototype created in pre-production.[151] Alpha and first playable are sometimes used to refer to a single milestone, however large projects require first playable before feature complete alpha.[150] First playable occurs 12 to 18 months before code release. It is sometimes referred to as the "Pre-Alpha" stage.[153]
Alpha
Alpha is the stage when key gameplay functionality is implemented, and assets are partially finished.[153] A game in alpha is feature complete, that is, game is playable and contains all the major features.[154] These features may be further revised based on testing and feedback.[153] Additional small, new features may be added, similarly planned, but unimplemented features may be dropped.[154] Programmers focus mainly on finishing the codebase, rather than implementing additions.[152] Alpha occurs eight to ten months before code release,[153] but this can vary significantly based on the scope of content and assets any given game has.
I'd argue that we're in pre-Alpha stage (after $160 million and 5 years). But, let's see what others think.
They were the ones calling it pre-Alpha. Since they are nowhere near Alpha yet, six years later, according to that chart, they are still in "First Playable". Which is hilarious indeed.
Post by: the_wolfmann on September 19, 2017, 09:53:01 AM
I posted the specs earlier on one of the boards here. It was the latest Intel i7 on 32 GB with 2 (!) GTX 1080 Titans. Huge specs.
And yet, the capital ships' battle was a slideshow. I got a headache trying to watch that. That's probably due to the piss-poor networking but I suspect the high overall poly count had something to do with the poor performance as well. I wonder if the FrankenEngine does a good job at back-face culling the ships' interiors as that's easily another bazillion polys that can be optimized away during combat.
Post by: dsmart on September 19, 2017, 01:27:29 PM
I posted the specs earlier on one of the boards here. It was the latest Intel i7 on 32 GB with 2 (!) GTX 1080 Titans. Huge specs.
And yet, the capital ships' battle was a slideshow. I got a headache trying to watch that. That's probably due to the piss-poor networking but I suspect the high overall poly count had something to do with the poor performance as well. I wonder if the FrankenEngine does a good job at back-face culling the ships' interiors as that's easily another bazillion polys that can be optimized away during combat.
What's worse is that was on a frigging LAN!!!
Post by: Motto on September 19, 2017, 01:30:03 PM
Ah, found the Gamescom 2017 PC specs. Only 1 GTX 1080 Titan, but I think I saw somewhere mentioned they had pc's with 2 of them in it? Anyways, still much better than most of the backers will have
(http://i.imgur.com/iQ8wwNR.jpg)
Post by: Motto on September 19, 2017, 01:53:08 PM
Post by: dsmart on September 19, 2017, 06:13:36 PM
So, just to stick it to Chris, I just purchased the whole 6 games bundle for 55 bucks from that oldest living #indiedev fossil to see if it will run on my Intel Core i7 5930K @ 3,5 GHz on 32 GB with a MSI Nvidia GeForce GTX 980 4GD5T OC :D
:vince:
All those games will scream on the system. Guaranteed.
ps: Thanks!
Post by: premiumnugz on September 20, 2017, 02:25:18 PM
Post by: nightfire on September 20, 2017, 02:45:15 PM
Does anyone know what the purported "gamechanger" they keep referring to is going to be at the coming CitizenCon presentation?
They are going to change the game to Early Access :D
Post by: Motto on September 20, 2017, 03:03:16 PM
Post by: dsmart on September 20, 2017, 05:52:58 PM
Does anyone know what the purported "gamechanger" they keep referring to is going to be at the coming CitizenCon presentation? I'm trying to find information online but not having much luck.
I thought the gamechanger (it was shite. we all watched) was at GC2017? I haven't heard any such thing for CitizenCon. Where did you read that?
Post by: Motto on September 20, 2017, 11:29:01 PM
Post by: N0mad on September 21, 2017, 12:21:25 AM
Maybe some sort of base building ship (which will never make it into the game) ??
Post by: Backer42 on September 21, 2017, 03:42:55 AM
Post by: dsmart on September 21, 2017, 05:23:55 AM
I read something similar on Reddit. Something about FOIP not being the gamechanger but yet to come at CC as confirmed by Lando. My best guess is that that is just pure speculation and hype creation because FOIP just can't be the gamechanger. Then again, that whole "gamechanger" thing was more fluff by Chris to rekindle the hypetrain and that whole FOIP blew up right in his face (pun intended)...
It's bullshit. I believe the "game changer" at GC2017 was either Chris's 3.0 presentation (with planet access) or FOIP. Both were trash. So. :colbert:
Post by: StanTheMan on September 21, 2017, 10:45:12 AM
Croberts is SOOOOO kin creative ...
(http://cdn5.ihorror.com/app/uploads/MARS-KeyArt-FSG-DDT.jpg)
Post by: nightfire on September 21, 2017, 10:56:33 AM
Base builder game jpeg inc...
Croberts is SOOOOO kin creative ...
When it comes to base building, I like the fidelity of this one better. AND it was more fun to play. AND it beat Star Citizen to Early Access! :woof:
(http://assets1.ignimgs.com/thumbs/userUploaded/2016/12/16/astroneer2-1481920458523.jpg)
Post by: N0mad on September 21, 2017, 12:13:23 PM
https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/comments/6w9zs7/gamechanger_clarification/
F**k knows what they've got planned, I'm sure it will have the fanboys climbing over each other to be the first to buy it.
Post by: Motto on September 21, 2017, 12:53:56 PM
The gamechanger is a civilian ship which will be sold in 2017.
There are two ships left in the year and the gamechanger is one of them.
You must be kidding me, right? There are two ships left in the year? WTF is that about? CIG actually will try to sell yet another concept ship after the 600i. As a gamechanger? After Gamescon 2017? And maybe another concept sale for the X-mas holidays?
:wtf: :vince: :wtf: :vince: :wtf: :vince: :wtf: :vince:
Post by: ChrisIhao on September 21, 2017, 02:53:41 PM
Base builder game jpeg inc...
Croberts is SOOOOO kin creative ...
When it comes to base building, I like the fidelity of this one better. AND it was more fun to play. AND it beat Star Citizen to Early Access! :woof:
Humm. What is that game? Too lazy to browse :p
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Post by: nightfire on September 21, 2017, 02:57:47 PM
Humm. What is that game? Too lazy to browse :p
ASTRONEER (http://store.steampowered.com/app/361420/ASTRONEER/)
They are now at Early Access version 0.3 – hmm, kind of reminds me of something :bahgawd:
Post by: ChrisIhao on September 21, 2017, 03:02:03 PM
ASTRONEER (http://store.steampowered.com/app/361420/ASTRONEER/)
Aha. Cool. Thanks. Read about it way back, but forgot to check it out. Its an actual game! Wow!
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Post by: ChrisIhao on September 21, 2017, 03:03:20 PM
Who wants a game changer six years into development?
Haha. Good one. "Game finisher" would be more like it.
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Post by: Motto on September 21, 2017, 10:54:10 PM
Guess they know nothing about game development :D
Post by: Backer42 on September 22, 2017, 04:11:46 AM
The comments and reviews about Astroneer are very funny to read if you are following the Scam Shitizen drama. They're complaining about lack of content after 10 months in development :DI have yet to see an early access product, which became a really good game afterwards. It's interesting when instead of spending money on hyped up incomplete games you just take a note and see them fail one after another much later (usually when the EA money dries up).
While there is the rare exception here and there, just as to be expected, all really excellent games I played - Indie or AA - were never in EA on Steam.
Post by: Serendipity on September 22, 2017, 04:27:37 AM
Post by: McDrake on September 22, 2017, 05:54:32 AM
Post by: Motto on September 22, 2017, 08:13:51 AM
Post by: dsmart on September 22, 2017, 06:38:49 PM
FF to 15:0 and 18:50
They don't have a vertical slice yet, let alone a game. But that's not important though, because they're working on all these immaterial things like air (LOL!!) traffic controllers. You know, because Elite Dangerous has that.
Quote
Benjamin Anders (System Designer):
...and you will talk only specifically to that AI and that will give the response.
So there is an air traffic controller entity which is a combined version of the SEATS that we already have and the useable system other designers are working on, and the AI will basically sit down and then have SENSORS or FEELERS you could say, um... to... check how many ships are in the radius, what ships request LANDING, what pads are free, what are occupied, what are the DIFFERENT stations of occupation of these pads and then will according to that, will address landing pads to players.
There's a couple of (inaudible) ones for special stations like LEVSKI or GRIM HEX or PORT OLISAR and there's also like a GENERIC one, a GENERIC computer system which also picks up if there's for whatever reason, no flight operator available. Because our flight operators are actually like physically placed in the station, so... you could basically stand in the station, see him talking to someone and whoever is on the ship will see the same thing. So it's a... uh... ONE TO ONE TRANSITION.
Let's say that station gets attacked or that guy is out of an emergency or whatever, he's not there, we have a BACKUP system that picks up with just a generic computer voice and that will handle the flight operation then.
So every flight controller is its own AI. When you hailing a tower to request landing or takeoff, you're gonna be in contact with an actual SUBSUMPTION DRIVEN AI which, um, has... depending on the station a unique voiceline or a generic one...
Something that a bog standard FSM can handle quite easily, gets completely blown out of proportion to the point where not only are they NEVER going to be able to implement it as stated, without chopping it all back - like they do with everything promised these past years - but they completely blew it out of proportion. Because you know, somehow that makes so much sense.
Seriously, FUCK those guys. :argh: At one time it was easy to just put the blame on the top level execs who were driving the direction of this train wreck; but these clowns go on camera to say shit like this - knowing it's all pure an utter bullshit. It's easy to just lump them all in on this on-going scam. It's a paycheck, and they're getting paid to bullshit backers. The SAME shit that if they do to publishers - and the producer gets wind of it - gets people fired, and projects canceled.
And you should see half the shit that the CIG guys are spouting in the ETF channel. It's absolutely amazing.
UPDATE: Meanwhile, over at the Goon enclave, SomethingJones has a transcript (https://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3800238&userid=0&perpage=40&pagenumber=2267#post476643415) of the new ATV up.
IF YOU NEEDED ANY FURTHER EVIDENCE THAT THIS PROJECT IS FUBAR & THAT THEY'RE JUST MAKING SHIT UP AS THEY GO ALONG, THIS WOULD BE IT
STRAP YOURSELF IN and prepare to dive inside CIG's well-oiled development machine.
Around The Verse Sep 21, 2017
@ 01:20
UK Leads Meeting
(https://i.imgur.com/VYK6GWs.png)
Matthew Webster (assoc producer):
Erin is very keen to go to Evocati THIS WEEK, um... so what we've done is, em... is severely cut down the PTU 'must fix' list, those 21 issues are the ones that we really need to focus for... like, the focus for this initial push to Evocati is the experience of the first HOUR, TWO HOURS or so...
The... the directors and the executive took a REALLY good look at what they wanted to do for our first release to Evocati cos... cos we're REALLY keen on getting this out to... to the Evocati group and start... for them to start testing things.
LA Project Leadership Meeting
(https://i.imgur.com/NdOdlWN.png)
(https://i.imgur.com/4afWL7t.png)
Erin Roberts:
...basically the idea is to get JIRA right, get JIRA used properly...
Chris Roberts
Yeah yeah yeah, a hundred percent you should... JIRA should be used right and... labelled right and timeline should be a juror so anyone can open the JIRA and see more details in the comments.
What I want is... a... like very QUICK top level view from the producer of their group, calling out like what their kinda ISSUES are
UK Project Leadership Meeting
(https://i.imgur.com/vKuYVNJ.png)
Rickey Jutley:
The thing that I asked QA to do today in the leads meeting is, I wanted them to just HIGHLIGHT the ones that THEY think are BIG... em... ev ah... Evocati issues that aren't on this list and send that filter to YOU, we'll recommend what we think out of the thirteen issues that they've highlighted, we think probably should be fixed... I think there's one or two that we think, 'you know what it's worthwhile', but ERIN, it's for YOU to make that CALL, then, um, you can let us know if you wanna add them or not
LA Global Leads Meeting
Erin Roberts:
I can just sit with the guys locally here, I don't need 20 people in there I just need to sit wif... one or two guys and then we'll just go through the process... cos I'm more interested in right now just how fuu... how... how... it FEELS when you get out, get... get a SHIP... take off... go to a place... and I DO think... if we can get the fix in for um... for the ah... for the em... for the ATC markers in, then that will be GOOD.
LA Directors Leads Meeting
Erin Roberts:
Please, just be careful of what you're checking in, don't just get on, on Friday night, check something in and go home... that's for your own... I'm not having a go at U.S., but also just sort of take care, make sure you get, you know CHECKED and so forth and things cos that costs us more time than anything when basically the build BREAKS and then we gotta (inaudible)... you know it kills you HERE, it kills us in the UK, you know we come in in the morning and we've got 4 hours at LEAST before we have to find the big fix and then by the time of the end of the day we've got a build and... so we need to make sure that everyone is being really CAREFUL when doing that stuff and I'd rather everyone took an EXTRA HOUR and make sure the BUG'S FIXED and then um, then try and rush on to the next one.
WARNING Verbal diarrhea incoming
This is the single most surreal transcript I have done to date.
Star Citizen: Around the Verse - Sep 21, 2017
@ 09:58
Mike Jones (Director of Corporate and Publishing Technology):
My team is responsible for DIGITAL PUBLISHING, and with 3.0 imminent we've been doing a lot of work to, uh... ENHANCE OUR SYSTEMS AND EXPAND OUR CAPABILITIES, and so I feel like we're ready to PUBLISH, uh... pretty much ANYTIME, uh... we get a selected build that's READY TO GO
@ 15:00
Carlos Pla Pueyo (Gameplay Programmer):
With the air traffic controller we have tried to ah... get a FEELING of a REALISTIC SITUATION, so... when REAL LIFE when you have different PLANES coming to an airport you need some kind of CONTROL, you need RULES, you need a way of making sure that everything is going to PLAN. So we have been trying to get the same behavior in... in a STAR CITIZEN so... up to now when you approaching a station you just have to... LAND and that's it. Now, you have to REQUEST landing which implies a communication with SOMEONE, an NPC which can be a REAL NPC or a AUTOMATIC VOICE...
Automatic Voice:
One hangar comin' up!
Carlos Pla Pueyo:
...telling you where you can LAND, or if there's no space available or anything like that. And there's also a controller were how much you can stay in a landing pad, eh... like security measures and so on.
Benjamin Anders (System Designer):
Right now players can just land everywhere they want, there is nothing controlling them, there is nothing saying, 'oh you should PARK HERE', there's no rules to that, and we needed to find a system that basically co ordinates landing, taking off, and also creating more IMMERSION on what actually like flight controllers are.
Bob Rissolo (Dialogue Supervisor):
The CONCEPT behind our game is to be very REALISTIC in what we do, so we do a lot of research in anything that goes on and especially... that DEFINITELY does not uh... uh... leave out the air traffic controllers, so we've done a lot of RESEARCH into what air traffic controllers DO. When... when we were ON SET in... in... and ah... FILMING and PCAP it... it was... it was really important you know cos the game was... er... really much FILMED LIKE A MOVIE and as we... as we went about TRACKING and trying to manage and maintain the CONTENT it was very clear that we needed to focus on the IMPLEMENTATION side and to use that as a way to track how the... the PCAP should be cut up and the way it should be ORGANIZED so... UTILIZING THAT BACKGROUND OF IMPLEMENTATION I made sure that we TRACKED OUR PCAP in a way that was ultimately feasible to edit... edit the project and... and... and... and uh... actually track how... how it was being cut up and... and uh... and... on... on the uh... on the EDITING BOARD.
It's really a BEHAVIORAL THING and so while we can record all the context and all the different dialogue that we want, it really becomes... you know it really comes down to our SYSTEMS to really be able to handle it, and yeah, our engineering team is just phenomenal, they... they are really pushing the boundary of what AI can really HANDLE, and making it a really systemic... ah... ah... MODULE OF BEHAVIOR so it's not just like, you know, 'oh these guys do this thing or whatever', it's a real AIR TRAFFIC CONTROLLER MODULE that... that... that... that's DEFINING all of these BEHAVIORS and... and... and it's not even just ONE VOICE that's defining the whole BALLET of all the different, you know, PEOPLE DOIN' ALL THE SIGNALS and the AI is saying, 'you can GO and you have to TAKE OFF or you can LAND, you go HERE', you know, all those kind of things... it's... it's... it's... it's a WHOLE BALLET of all these uh... uh... CHARACTERS involved.
Benjamin Anders (System Designer):
Well one of the more complicated things is that it's not working like in REAL LIFE where everyone behaves as they should be, right? So it's still a GAME and players so what they WANT sometimes, so we need to make sure to have RULES in place which allow players to actually have an IMMERSIVE EXPERIENCE but also don't abuse other players as well and have like, PUNISHMENT almost, um... when they not follow the RULES
Bob Rissolo (Dialogue Supervisor):
You have to account for the silly stupid things like a player strafing the station, or uh, flying too close and you know they have to react in a way it's... it, eh... you know... it ah... ah... it's both HELPFUL to the player haha, let's not do that haha! But, eh... but it's also... it's... it's... it's a GAME you know, it HAPPENS and it's FUN, ENTERTAINING.
Benjamin Anders (System Designer):
So every flight controller is its own AI. When you hailing a tower to request landing or takeoff, you're gonna be in contact with an actual SUBSUMPTION DRIVEN AI which, um, has... depending on the station a unique voiceline or a generic one...
Subsumption AI Flight Controller:
There! Should be waiting for you in the hangar!
Benjamin Anders (System Designer):
...and you will talk only specifically to that AI and that will give the response.
So there is an air traffic controller entity which is a combined version of the SEATS that we already have and the useable system other designers are working on, and the AI will basically sit down and then have SENSORS or FEELERS you could say, um... to... check how many ships are in the radius, what ships request LANDING, what pads are free, what are occupied, what are the DIFFERENT stations of occupation of these pads and then will according to that, will address landing pads to players.
There's a couple of (inaudible) ones for special stations like LEVSKI or GRIM HEX or PORT OLISAR and there's also like a GENERIC one, a GENERIC computer system which also picks up if there's for whatever reason, no flight operator available. Because our flight operators are actually like physically placed in the station, so... you could basically stand in the station, see him talking to someone and whoever is on the ship will see the same thing. So it's a... uh... ONE TO ONE TRANSITION.
Let's say that station gets attacked or that guy is out of an emergency or whatever, he's not there, we have a BACKUP system that picks up with just a generic computer voice and that will handle the flight operation then.
Bob Rissolo (Dialogue Supervisor):
If you think about it we have a big amount of content to get, you know, like a big piece of cake, the SPONGE is the primary... the BIG PART of what we do. But there's also... cake needs some ICING, needs some FLAVOR, and so we... we... like to... ah... um... you know... have a giant, general sort of VOICE SET that is used across the... the... the GALAXY, and we also like to have some nice specific characters that are placed in locations and give a good flavor to certain things like for instance, LEVSKI, we have a general ATC but we also have this flight ops dude in um... in LEVSKI that's kind of like a California dude like me
Flight Ops California Dude AI:
Hey there! On behalf of the People's Alliance, WELCOOOOME to Levksi! The name's (inaudible), I run the hangars here which is GREAT for you 'cos you're prob'ly lookin' to land!
Bob Rissolo (Dialogue Supervisor):
He's a good character and he provides a lot of good character to that... to that LANDING SPACE, and uh... it's FUN for players to enjoy that specific character set rather than having a... just a big universe of... always general, you know characters running around.
Meanwhile the automagically disappearing issues continues in full swing.
(https://i.imgur.com/QDMwk4U.png)
They started removing stuff since the Sept 8th update (http://www.dereksmart.com/forum/index.php?topic=29.msg3824#msg3824). This is how they went from a few dozen issues to a hand full.
In this article I wrote (http://dereksmart.com/forums/reply/5785/) about the early access announcement, their release schedule is all over the place.
Quote
STAR CITIZEN MAJOR MILESTONE BUILDS
3.0 (w/ planet/moon access etc), ??/??/??
2.6.3, 04/27/2017
2.6.2, 03/31/2017
2.6.0 (w/ Star Marine fps module), 12/23/2016
2.4.0 (/w/ ArcCorp shopping), 06/08/2016
2.0 (w/ Persistent Universe, Multi-Crew Ships), 12/11/2015
1.2 (w/ ArcCorp social module), 08/28/2015
0.8 (w/ Arena Commander dogfighting module), 06/04/2014
0.x (w/ Hangar module), 08/29/2013
So apparently they are going to be releasing parts of 3.0 to Evocati over time, until they get the full (scaled down since the 2016 promise) 3.0 promise to Evocati, then PTU, then live release. Which is when all hell is literally going to break loose. Guaranteed.
Since we have people in Evocati, I am waiting to see if that first release has the promised seamless space<->moon transitions or #justanotherlevel
Post by: dsmart on September 22, 2017, 06:40:58 PM
MTBFritz over at FDev has one of his masterpiece posts (https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php/355735-Star-Citizen-Thread-v6?p=5934921&viewfull=1#post5934921) up. This time he's taking on this ATV bullshit.
He totally nailed it.
Post by: Aya Reiko on September 22, 2017, 11:11:48 PM
Post by: maxsimal on September 23, 2017, 08:37:01 AM
Actually, it's not simulated.
As a game dev, I admit to some amount of jealousy, initially, about a guy getting to build his dream game, with oodles of cash, no publisher to answer to, and all the time anyone would ever need to build a space sim. A space sim! No offense to you Derek, but space sims are much easier to build than most other types - compare the math behind flying in space to the math behind getting a reasonable water interaction model going for a boat game and you wonder how they've managed to fail at even getting a working flight model. How are they failing to get netcode working when the physics interactions are so much simpler to model than something involving landscape? Well, of course, they decided to do all that planetary stuff, but c'mon.
So, while I'm in the sweat mines working on my own project, dealing with our publishers, I gotta say it's fun coming over here and seeing how badly CR has cocked things up. My only lament is that no actual, good designer/project manager will get the chance to do this.
Post by: dsmart on September 23, 2017, 09:20:44 AM
Best Damn Schadenfreude Simulator Ever.
Actually, it's not simulated.
As a game dev, I admit to some amount of jealousy, initially, about a guy getting to build his dream game, with oodles of cash, no publisher to answer to, and all the time anyone would ever need to build a space sim. A space sim! No offense to you Derek, but space sims are much easier to build than most other types - compare the math behind flying in space to the math behind getting a reasonable water interaction model going for a boat game and you wonder how they've managed to fail at even getting a working flight model. How are they failing to get netcode working when the physics interactions are so much simpler to model than something involving landscape? Well, of course, they decided to do all that planetary stuff, but c'mon.
So, while I'm in the sweat mines working on my own project, dealing with our publishers, I gotta say it's fun coming over here and seeing how badly CR has cocked things up. My only lament is that no actual, good designer/project manager will get the chance to do this.
^this all of it, pretty much.
One thing is certain, Croberts has once again served to be the poster child of what not to do when you're developing a game with other people's money, and no oversight.
Post by: dsmart on September 23, 2017, 09:29:49 AM
(https://imgur.com/H7wIWop.jpg)
So in last night's newsletter, which always comes out with the dev schedule (more on that later), two things jumped out at me from this sentence.
Quote
"so players can experience the excitement of piloting their ship from space into atmosphere and across one of Crusader’s moons"
1) God I hope that's just the idiot who wrote that, not knowing how to construct a sentence for clarity reasons. Because if they are really releasing 3.0 (or a subset thereof) with only one moon ---> fucking :lol: because the fallout would be amazing. :magical:
Erring on the side of common sense, I'm just going with the notion that the sentence doesn't mean they are releasing it with only one moon, but rather he was trying to express the notion of being on one of the moons.
2) So they are stating that they do have the ability to go from space to a moon or planetoid. Though how they are doing that, is still left to be seen. I know some backers are hoping that whatever they release, puts to bed that whole "seamless" space<->planet transition bullshit to rest. I can't wait.
Post by: nightfire on September 23, 2017, 09:54:32 AM
1) God I hope that's just the idiot who wrote that, not knowing how to construct a sentence for clarity reasons. Because if they are really releasing 3.0 (or a subset thereof) with only one moon ---> fucking :lol: because the fallout would be amazing. :magical:
Hey, that's exactly what Frogbear said on Discord! :D
Quote
wacky moon language and emotional cues are carried through it so badly
Post by: Kyrt on September 23, 2017, 10:54:31 AM
I wasn't trying to deflect it to be about LOD, rather I was explaining why I feel you are so emotionally invested into Star Citizen, to the point of it effecting the rest of your life in a bad way.
Why would it affect his life in a bad way?
**HE** hasn't got money invested in the game.
As for why....the game is of interest and he was invested. Until he started "asking questions" and not getting answers and was booted.
If he has the spare time to point out the flaws in the project - and there are a great many of them - that's up to him.
It is, I think, a bit much to think he is having much of an impact. He is making noise, but funding has remained relatively high....at least until CIG show off their demos.
I think the reaction of people such as yourself to Derek Smarts observations is much more interesting. I do not think you would be getting so defensive if, at some level, you didn't think he had a point.
Quote
There is more I can say about LOD and the evidence about the development has come to a crawl, but like I said that wasn't my point anyways.
Well...the thing is, your evidence is mostly that he appears to have stopped releasing patches, stopped talking about it. Which is false.
He doesn't talk about it as much as CIG does about SC - but CIG are doing things wrong here. They shouldn't be talking about the game at all until their engine and netcode and flight model are finished. That way they can worry about he basic foundations of the game without worrying about the PR. Maybe once Alpha starts they could release a few trailers, but all these talks and vids and more are - IMO anyway - mostly a mistake. Developing the game engine isn't flashy, but it is kinda necessary and CIG haven't done it.
Your "lack of progress" appears to be business as normal for every developer except CIG.
Post by: Aya Reiko on September 23, 2017, 10:55:15 AM
Post by: N0mad on September 23, 2017, 11:06:57 AM
What we saw at GDC17 is what is going to be 3.0; An asteroid base and one moon. Both with copy and paste terrain and no other content at all.
The first iteration of 3.0 will be like 2.6.3 with three moons and slightly less content (I guess they're going to remove those stupid missions).
Can't wait to hear the backlash when it hits Avocado testing. NMS have added base building, ground vehicles, capital ships, a whole new alien race and a new story in the same time that 3.0 has managed to give us 3 moons to land on, all from a team a fraction of the size of CIG.
Post by: Backer42 on September 23, 2017, 11:36:17 AM
As a game dev, I admit to some amount of jealousy, initially, about a guy getting to build his dream game, with oodles of cash, no publisher to answer to, and all the time anyone would ever need to build a space sim.I learned a lot from this. About game development. :)
[...]
So, while I'm in the sweat mines working on my own project, dealing with our publishers, I gotta say it's fun coming over here and seeing how badly CR has cocked things up. My only lament is that no actual, good designer/project manager will get the chance to do this.
Post by: ChrisIhao on September 23, 2017, 11:45:22 AM
MTBFritz over at FDev has one of his masterpiece posts (https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php/355735-Star-Citizen-Thread-v6?p=5934921&viewfull=1#post5934921) up. This time he's taking on this ATV bullshit.
He totally nailed it.
Is this TV-shop or something?
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Post by: Motto on September 23, 2017, 12:18:37 PM
Post by: nightfire on September 23, 2017, 12:36:28 PM
And then what? Waiting for the next patch?Yes. But not without weeks and months of intense theorycrafting over there about all the exciting features and bug fixes 3.0.1 will bring, as well as what the new concept ships can do and what to melt for what. Don't worry, they'll be fine and continue to get their money's worth out of following the game development experience. As long as they have the meta-game in the forums, they'll be fine.
Post by: Motto on September 23, 2017, 12:51:54 PM
But most of all, I want to have the discussions overthere knowing that Derek has been proven right :toot:
Post by: Resin on September 23, 2017, 01:24:30 PM
Oh, I want this to be over so badly. I can't wait for 3.0 and I can't wait for Shitizen Con. I want to see it crash and burn. The suspense is killing me. It's becoming like the cliffhanger that ends the season and you just want to see where it's going. I want news, I want gossip, and want it all so I can have the ultimate laugh when CIG collapses. I want to rub it in to those guys. I want to set a remind me for myself there. I want to hear all their arguments after CIG has crashed. I want to look for the first one who dares to say Derek was right. And now I lost XYZ of money. I want, I want, I want :supaburn:
But most of all, I want to have the discussions overthere knowing that Derek has been proven right :toot:
Maybe create new account on both /r/starcitizen and on Spectrum and post some pro-SC posts once in a while just to have an older account to post with when shit hit the fan? Like an infiltrator.:)
Post by: ChrisIhao on September 23, 2017, 02:11:08 PM
So, there will be a moon. A barren rock with nothing to do but fly over it or drive on it with a buggy. That'll be fun for 5 minutes or so. And then what? Waiting for the next patch?
Exactly. Most players have already overplayed 2.6.X by now, and adding an empty moon where people basically have to crowd together to even have remotely fun, wont change this all that much. If people complain about other "early access" games out there, guess how they'll react when they get two space stations and one moon to play with the next 6-12 months.
I cant get over the fact that this could have become an awesome space sim by now, if fps and planetary landings were dropped in the first place, with this kind of a budget. Oh, and if Chris stayed the hell away from most aspects of the game, except rounding up a big friggin' wad of money due to his name.
Post by: Motto on September 23, 2017, 02:44:51 PM
+ Levski isnt a moon, its a landing zone on a large Asteroid! In 3.0 we'll see Yela, Cellin, Daymar and Delamar (the home of Levski)! However the Location of Delamar will change in future patches cause originally the Asteroidfield it's in right now isn't located in the Stanton system!
That's so much more to explore. I'm guessing twenty minutes before waiting on the next patch.
Post by: dsmart on September 24, 2017, 05:25:53 AM
I guess we got it all wrong...
+ Levski isnt a moon, its a landing zone on a large Asteroid! In 3.0 we'll see Yela, Cellin, Daymar and Delamar (the home of Levski)! However the Location of Delamar will change in future patches cause originally the Asteroidfield it's in right now isn't located in the Stanton system!
That's so much more to explore. I'm guessing twenty minutes before waiting on the next patch.
:lol:
Post by: Orgetorix on September 24, 2017, 06:06:27 PM
That's so much more to explore. I'm guessing twenty minutes before waiting on the next patch.
Naw, you'll never get to explore that 20 minutes of new content, because it'll crash every 10 minutes...
Post by: StanTheMan on September 24, 2017, 07:49:54 PM
Quote
GeneralZex 2 points 7 hours ago
They want Evocati testers being put to work. Having players mess around with the 3.0 Gamescom version found a lot bugs QA missed entirely. Players were playing with features in a way they weren't even thought of being tested in a QA environment.
...
They must have very bad QA...there was very little for players to play with...
Post by: nightfire on September 24, 2017, 09:22:10 PM
They must have very bad QA...there was very little for players to play with...
Either that, or very unimaginative, unmotivated, inattentive and stressed out QA.
Sent from my HTC One using Tapatalk
Post by: dsmart on September 25, 2017, 03:55:47 PM
An excerpt from the vomitous puff piece tripe from gamestar.de Posted July 2016 on RSI forums by a mod (https://forums.robertsspaceindustries.com/discussion/comment/6838498/#Comment_6838498):
Quote
The Next Steps
After we played for a while to make a picture for ourselves about the technological background (of the game) at Foundry 42, we naturally wanted to know, when it will be playable live. Chris Roberts told us what the next steps to update the alpha builds for backers will look like.
First there will be an update to version 2.5 soon. This contains a new space station for the existing mini universe(see box on page 14). "The station is more targeted at players, that lets say want to move beyond the law", explains Roberts. The allusion refers to the pirate base named Grim Hex, which was shown recently by Cloud Imperium Games in their Online-Video-Show "Around the Verse" shortly. Grim Hex is the opposite to the already existing station Port Olisar in the playable Stanton System. "With that we want to enable the gameplay between two factions, to see, what the players will make of it", so Roberts.
After that follows 2.6, in which the developers want to introduce the First-Person-Shooter-Module Star Marine. Star Marine will be played outside of the persistant universe, like the already existing module Arena Commander, in which one can test his piloting skills. It is specially designed for multiplayer shooter sessions, with separate levels. "We have invested very much time into the FPS-mechanics, which will be very noticeable if compared to the actual rudimentary systems in 2.4", says Roberts. The developer show us a corresponding gameplay segment, which leaves an excellent impression: Animation, controls and weapon feeling were thoroughly overhauled, so that for a shooter player it really feels good. The result: Seamless movements and clean gunplay – keep it up!
With version 2.7 CIG wants to implement procedural planet technology into the live universe. In the first step it will for the first time become possible to travel the complete Stanton System. At the moment version 2.4 contains only parts of it, in whcih which one can't land on planets or space ports. This will change fundamentally. "Version 2.7 is the next big step for us, which will contain much more playable content for our backers", remarks Roberts. Planets and Moons in the Stanton System will be directly approachable and the players can land on them, like on the afore mentioned Outlaw-Base Grim Hex. With following patches more landing zones will find their way into the Stanton System, like for example Hurston and Microtech, two important corporation locations in the Star Citizen Universe. The proclaimed target of CIG is, to make Stanton playable in its full extent before the end of 2016, with all stations and landing zones, which Roberts estimates to 40 locations. It shall also be possible, to play considerably more missions... end...
Then they pull the ol' switcheroo we are no longer burning down to 2.7, we are burning down to 3.0. We have always been burning down to 3.0.
Posted August 21st 2016 (Gamescom) (https://www.redacted.tv/star-citizen-gamescom-2016-overview/) by our "special" superfan friend Boredgamer
Quote
STAR CITIZEN ALPHA 3.0 FEATURES
Renamed from Star Citizen Alpha 2.7 & Released Planned Before End of 2016
Expanding the Stanton System
-ArcCorp, Hurston, Microtech, Crusader, Delamar
-New Space Stations, Moons & Asteroid Belts (30-40 locations)
Planets
-Planetary Landing
-Atmospheric Flight
-Free Roaming
-Landing Zones
-Ground Combat
-Ground Vehicles
(Mentions of Procedural Planets 2.0, with Oceans, Water, Plant Life)
Basic Professions
-Piracy
-Bounty Hunting
-Cargo Hauling
-Trading
-Mercenary
Item 2.0
-Inner Thought – “Contextual Action System Replacing Use” (wtf is this shitfuck?)
-Refactored Items
StarNetwork 1.0
-New Network CODE Increasing performance
-More Players
-BETTER
Subsumption 1.0
-NPCs
-Schedules for NPCs
-Diverse NPC Actions
-Day & Night Cycles
-Increased Missions & Complexity of them
-Economy Driven Missions
Mission 1.0
Dynamic Missions that can be template, modular, NPC & Economy Driven
-Jobwell Mission Board
-Other Missions
Ships & Vehicles
-Dragonfly
-Ursa Rover
Post by: dsmart on September 25, 2017, 03:56:05 PM
CitizenCon 2016
(https://imgur.com/54axyWT.jpg)
(https://imgur.com/0DDwLbs.jpg)
GamesCom 2017
(https://imgur.com/NztH3PT.jpg)
(https://imgur.com/DBeltmn.jpg)
(https://imgur.com/CDb603A.jpg)
Post by: dsmart on September 27, 2017, 07:56:08 AM
Maybe because it's not lethal enough (https://www.gamespot.com/articles/star-citizens-fps-gameplay-will-be-more-lethal-tha/1100-6433524/)? Yeah, that would be it (http://www.dereksmart.com/forum/index.php?topic=53.msg4486#msg4486).
Post by: dsmart on September 29, 2017, 07:30:38 AM
FF to @ 11:00
(https://i.imgur.com/0qc2BVJ.png)
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"You have five or six people and it crashes every five or ten minutes... and if 3.0 crashes is relative or proportional to the amount of people playing there will be a lot more, you'll be having crashes every minute or two, because you are going to fill up these instances pretty quickly... They'll download it, then they'll be getting kicked out to the desktop" - Chris Roberts
Too unstable to release, even to Evocati. From 0 (having deferred a bunch of them to a later build) must-fix bugs, back to 5 (that they are disclosing)
Hey, who remembers when I said this yesterday, ahead of their burndown?
https://twitter.com/dsmart/status/913522461353881600
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BREAKING!! Well, don't bother waiting for 3.0 aka "Baby Jesus Patch" being released to Evocati next week. We're now 2 weeks out. Oh well.
https://twitter.com/dsmart/status/913102409483857920
Quote
I forgot to mention, you can ignore Chambers. 3.0 build, as of last build, was the same crash fest as LAST week. He doesn't know yet maybe
Post by: premiumnugz on September 29, 2017, 09:21:17 AM
Too unstable to release, even to Evocati. From 0 (having deferred a bunch of them to a later build) must-fix bugs, back to 5 (that they are disclosing)
I'm genuinely amazed they didn't squeeze a ship sale in there when the tracker dropped to zero bugs. Chris must be fuming, unless they're planning to have it scrape the bottom for a while, do a big ship sale, then shoot back up.
Post by: Motto on September 29, 2017, 09:30:26 AM
Post by: dsmart on September 29, 2017, 11:15:53 AM
Too unstable to release, even to Evocati. From 0 (having deferred a bunch of them to a later build) must-fix bugs, back to 5 (that they are disclosing)
I'm genuinely amazed they didn't squeeze a ship sale in there when the tracker dropped to zero bugs. Chris must be fuming, unless they're planning to have it scrape the bottom for a while, do a big ship sale, then shoot back up.
You're kidding, right? They are having an X1 concept sale right now, and it has all the makings of a flop. So what's the emergency plan? A flash subscriber* sale of course
https://robertsspaceindustries.com/comm-link/transmission/16144-Subscriber-Flash-Sale
* who remembers back when the game was "no subscriptions".
Post by: Motto on September 29, 2017, 12:42:30 PM
(http://i64.tinypic.com/2s7fcyw.png)
Somebody did the very first copy in mirror writing by accident and apparently nobody took the time correcting it. Probably too busy moving features out of the build.
Post by: dsmart on September 30, 2017, 08:18:38 AM
Last week when a source told me that 3.0 was nowhere near ready, even though they had deferred a bunch of bugs to a "later" build, I thought they would actually try to rush it out - crashes and all. Apparently they decided not to do that after all (http://www.dereksmart.com/forum/index.php?topic=29.msg4597#msg4597). Or did they?
Post by: Flashwit on September 30, 2017, 09:12:59 AM
Post by: dsmart on September 30, 2017, 09:19:27 AM
Wow, no wonder they couldn't release with that stuff. If those are the sort of bugs they're encountering (extremely basic stuff) they are going to get shredded when they get into Evocati. I'm sure at least 100+ gamebreakers will be found.
You're assuming that's what they're encountering. Considering that they pulled over two dozen bugs (http://www.dereksmart.com/forum/index.php?topic=29.msg3824#msg3824) from the patch and deferred them in order to release the upcoming scaled down 3.0 "Baby Jesus Patch", it's likely that there are bugs that they're not disclosing. Several sources have said that it simply doesn't run without crashing. I posted that, then they confirmed it in their ATV the next day. All of a sudden, the zero bugs, automagically manifested as something else. Because yeah.
Post by: David-2 on September 30, 2017, 12:09:18 PM
Those crashing bugs ... from the method names they're all over the place and in reasonably low level stuff that's exercised all the time, e.g.,
- CEntityComponentSystem::UnregisterComponent,
- CSCActorControlStateUsable::QueueIdle,
- CGameRules::PrecacheList,
- PersistenceCache::CCacheMsgHandler::SetChildrenRootParentRecursive.
There's like 30 of these crashes fixed in the last 2 weeks alone!
So
- it's amazing they have this many crashes in foundation level code at this stage, not to mention right when they're supposed to be shipping to Evocati ...
- it's no wonder they can't keep a system running for more than a few minutes ...
- how many are left to fix in their bug queue?
- to those who say that we, out here, don't know game development: Unit tests, anyone? Again, these are low-level methods!
:vince:
Post by: premiumnugz on September 30, 2017, 12:14:34 PM
All that's happening now is people are realising the "internal build reports" and status updates are completely bogus and meaningless, I've seen this happen on commercial projects before. As a project manager if you don't stand by your gantt charts and build reports people just lose faith in your charts and slowly they become the office joke, then the joke with your client, then you lose the client. CRoberts is running out of tricks and delaying tactics to use, now his gantt charts have been shown as meaningless what else will they throw at us?
Post by: Backer42 on September 30, 2017, 12:27:33 PM
Post by: Motto on September 30, 2017, 12:43:25 PM
So basically, Chris is fucked either way. The end is near. As can be deducted too from the huge sales success over the weekend. People are no longer putting their money in Scam Shitizen and that's the beginning of the end...
Post by: StanTheMan on September 30, 2017, 04:45:15 PM
I would be shocked if this goes to Evocati any time before Christmas. :bahgawd:
All that's happening now is people are realising the "internal build reports" and status updates are completely bogus and meaningless, I've seen this happen on commercial projects before. As a project manager if you don't stand by your gantt charts and build reports people just lose faith in your charts and slowly they become the office joke, then the joke with your client, then you lose the client. CRoberts is running out of tricks and delaying tactics to use, now his gantt charts have been shown as meaningless what else will they throw at us?
But hey what would you know ?
Post by: Spunky Munkee on September 30, 2017, 09:41:51 PM
What have they done to CryEngine to break it in such a fundamental way?
IThe problem was/ is that this engine is poorly suited to create the massive MMO style game he wants to build. It required heavy modification. Ill refer back to what I had been told and paraphrase. They start patching here and there, hundreds of changes, then thousands. Eventually you come to a point where the code is like a jenga tower. Change one more thing and it breaks a few others. It appears that to have the game as he wishes he can only have a few players in an instance (correct term?) because the game is so (data, pixel) intensive that as you approach 16 players it will crash.
Roberts wants it so when joe and biff are in a shootout in Space Marine it is happening in real time on the same space station you are flying past, no separation between the various modules and the rest of the persistant universe. Add in all the miscellaneous bullshit nobody cares about like face over IP ( I think he needs a shaving minigame and a dental hygiene simulator, whaddya think?)and you have a nightmare that is nearly impossible to build and very few are actually interested in playing. ITS NOT FUN. he hasn't figured out that his game is BORING.
Time is running out. His suddenly deciding to remove a shitload of bugs from the list to push out this super buggy ultra condensed version of 3.0 is a sign of desperation to keep more players from requesting refunds. Personally I think this will be their coffin nail. If I'm wrong they are still so far from a complete game that there will be many chances to fail or run out of money to continue with their huge staff. They spend more than they take in now.
Anybody have a funding chart for dummies that is updated to show the latest pixel sale?
Post by: Aya Reiko on October 01, 2017, 03:38:39 AM
If I'm not mistaken, CryEngine is also horribly suited for a space sim too. And horribly out-of-date. And, well, just plain horrible.What have they done to CryEngine to break it in such a fundamental way?
IThe problem was/ is that this engine is poorly suited to create the massive MMO style game he wants to build. It required heavy modification. Ill refer back to what I had been told and paraphrase. They start patching here and there, hundreds of changes, then thousands. Eventually you come to a point where the code is like a jenga tower. Change one more thing and it breaks a few others. It appears that to have the game as he wishes he can only have a few players in an instance (correct term?) because the game is so (data, pixel) intensive that as you approach 16 players it will crash.
Roberts wants it so when joe and biff are in a shootout in Space Marine it is happening in real time on the same space station you are flying past, no separation between the various modules and the rest of the persistant universe. Add in all the miscellaneous bullshit nobody cares about like face over IP ( I think he needs a shaving minigame and a dental hygiene simulator, whaddya think?)and you have a nightmare that is nearly impossible to build and very few are actually interested in playing. ITS NOT FUN. he hasn't figured out that his game is BORING.
Time is running out. His suddenly deciding to remove a shitload of bugs from the list to push out this super buggy ultra condensed version of 3.0 is a sign of desperation to keep more players from requesting refunds. Personally I think this will be their coffin nail. If I'm wrong they are still so far from a complete game that there will be many chances to fail or run out of money to continue with their huge staff. They spend more than they take in now.
Anybody have a funding chart for dummies that is updated to show the latest pixel sale?
Post by: Motto on October 01, 2017, 03:52:46 AM
Post by: dsmart on October 01, 2017, 07:00:18 AM
Look at lines 53-68 in that diff (https://www.diffchecker.com/7nrH3A6u), both weeks, under the subtitle "Crashes".
Those crashing bugs ... from the method names they're all over the place and in reasonably low level stuff that's exercised all the time, e.g.,
- CEntityComponentSystem::UnregisterComponent,
- CSCActorControlStateUsable::QueueIdle,
- CGameRules::PrecacheList,
- PersistenceCache::CCacheMsgHandler::SetChildrenRootParentRecursive.
There's like 30 of these crashes fixed in the last 2 weeks alone!
So
- it's amazing they have this many crashes in foundation level code at this stage, not to mention right when they're supposed to be shipping to Evocati ...
- it's no wonder they can't keep a system running for more than a few minutes ...
- how many are left to fix in their bug queue?
- to those who say that we, out here, don't know game development: Unit tests, anyone? Again, these are low-level methods!
:vince:
Yup. Now, think about this. That's what they're willing to disclose publicly. Imagine what they're NOT disclosing, and you have your on-going disaster summarized.
Post by: dsmart on October 01, 2017, 07:04:51 AM
I would be shocked if this goes to Evocati any time before Christmas. :bahgawd:
All that's happening now is people are realising the "internal build reports" and status updates are completely bogus and meaningless, I've seen this happen on commercial projects before. As a project manager if you don't stand by your gantt charts and build reports people just lose faith in your charts and slowly they become the office joke, then the joke with your client, then you lose the client. CRoberts is running out of tricks and delaying tactics to use, now his gantt charts have been shown as meaningless what else will they throw at us?
Yup. A source told me this months ago, and I wrote about it (http://dereksmart.com/forums/reply/5276/). Guess what happened shortly after? They released a new update with more stuff that wasn't in it before.
Post by: dsmart on October 01, 2017, 07:05:47 AM
What have they done to CryEngine to break it in such a fundamental way?
They didn't break CryEngine. They tried to build a custom engine (StarEngine) from it; and completely botched it up.
Post by: dsmart on October 01, 2017, 07:06:52 AM
If Chris can't release 3.0 at least to the Avocado's before Shitizen Con, most bakers will (finally) accept that they have been had since Gamescom 2016. If he releases the crap that 3.0 is to the Avocado's and that stuff leaks, most bakers will (finally) accept that they have been had since Gamescom 2016.
So basically, Chris is fucked either way. The end is near. As can be deducted too from the huge sales success over the weekend. People are no longer putting their money in Scam Shitizen and that's the beginning of the end...
:five: :five: :five:
Post by: dsmart on October 01, 2017, 07:08:21 AM
They should have started with a custom made engine from scratch with a focus on the basic core elements of the game. basically, once Chris decided to go with CryEngine, the game was fucked.
Yup. Basically the gist of The July Blog :eng101:
Post by: Motto on October 01, 2017, 08:25:17 AM
:five: :five: :five:
Yesssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss :toot:
Post by: dsmart on October 02, 2017, 08:42:17 AM
It's going to be absolutely hilarious if CIG tries to integrate John's EmotionFX (http://www.mysticgd.com/) animation engine. That engine is a fantastic but somewhat complex. I've tinkered with it for years; but never did end up using it because it was overkill for my games.
The fact that AMZ has now ripped out over 60% of CE3, is testament to how restrictive the CE engine is in the first place. Yet, as I wrote in this Dec 2016 blog (http://dereksmart.com/2016/12/star-citizen-irreconcilable-differences/), those lying bastards at CIG had the audacity to say it took them 2 days to implement LumberYard because they were using the the same (it's bullshit) branch as AMZ. Almost a year later, they still haven't released anything that remotely supports their "switch".
https://twitter.com/dsmart/status/914683492788834305
https://twitter.com/dsmart/status/914563550085042177
Quote
So @AmznLumberyard just released a major update to LumberYard, proving once again that CryEngine simply isn't suited for all types of games. Good call! Gee, it's almost as if I wrote a whole blog in 2015 about that.
Except in the case of Amazon, they actually took one look and decided, "yeah, we're gonna have to rip it all out to make a decent general purpose engine". Then went ahead and did just that.
@AmznLumberyard Basically created a new custom engine using baseline CryEngine. No, they couldn't have started from scratch with own engine as that would be admitting that someone up the food chain caused AMZ to lose a fortune by licensing CE in the first place.
Post by: Fool Me Once on October 03, 2017, 10:14:26 AM
They should have started with a custom made engine from scratch with a focus on the basic core elements of the game. basically, once Chris decided to go with CryEngine, the game was fucked.
Yup. Basically the gist of The July Blog :eng101:
As a layman, I´ve always wondered the following: Is there a reason why CIG couldn´t use simpler (perhaps even in a stylized art style, like Blizzard always uses) models in order to make the game run smoother? From my uninformed outsider´s perspective I can´t help but imagine that most CE limitations would be relatively minor if they could get over how hard it is for the engine to render all the things they need it to.
Post by: dsmart on October 03, 2017, 10:29:33 AM
As a layman, I´ve always wondered the following: Is there a reason why CIG couldn´t use simpler (perhaps even in a stylized art style, like Blizzard always uses) models in order to make the game run smoother? From my uninformed outsider´s perspective I can´t help but imagine that most CE limitations would be relatively minor if they could get over how hard it is for the engine to render all the things they need it to.
Well no, because and art style is a matter of choice and depending on the game. It's what they wanted to go with, and they stuck with it.
I get the same queries all the time with Line Of Defense. I chose the colorful art style, compared to my previous games, because it suited the type and style of game I was making.
Post by: Flashwit on October 03, 2017, 10:34:20 AM
They should have started with a custom made engine from scratch with a focus on the basic core elements of the game. basically, once Chris decided to go with CryEngine, the game was fucked.
Yup. Basically the gist of The July Blog :eng101:
As a layman, I´ve always wondered the following: Is there a reason why CIG couldn´t use simpler (perhaps even in a stylized art style, like Blizzard always uses) models in order to make the game run smoother? From my uninformed outsider´s perspective I can´t help but imagine that most CE limitations would be relatively minor if they could get over how hard it is for the engine to render all the things they need it to.
Yeah, but Croberts' whole pitch was about crazy fidelity and so forth. And, without knowledge of game engines, my understanding is that it isn't really a rendering problem but an issue of having forced CryEngine into a role it was never meant to play. I believe it's also partially because they implemented so many things at an unnecessarily low-level that the amount of data flow is excessive and it just gets out of control when you're past 8 players. A great example is the recent announcement of that Air Traffic Controller nonsense. I don't believe any other game studio would waste time on something as ridiculous as an AI-controlled ATC with an actual physical model, especially when they haven't even got 10% of actual gameplay in the game yet. It's a real :wtchris:
Post by: Motto on October 03, 2017, 10:42:57 AM
Which makes me wonder, I assume more top people know by now that CIG is the Titanic and that the iceberg has been hit. Are they making their own files and dossiers? When CIG crashes, will they provide us with the gossip and the details we currently lack? Or do the keyplayers prefer to jump ship in advance? Does anybody has some (industry) background on that?
Post by: Ghostmaker on October 03, 2017, 12:08:42 PM
As a layman, I´ve always wondered the following: Is there a reason why CIG couldn´t use simpler (perhaps even in a stylized art style, like Blizzard always uses) models in order to make the game run smoother? From my uninformed outsider´s perspective I can´t help but imagine that most CE limitations would be relatively minor if they could get over how hard it is for the engine to render all the things they need it to.
Well no, because and art style is a matter of choice and depending on the game. It's what they wanted to go with, and they stuck with it.
I get the same queries all the time with Line Of Defense. I chose the colorful art style, compared to my previous games, because it suited the type and style of game I was making.
There's also been some solid pushback over the years against dull, brown and gray color palettes in games. The whole 'Real Is Brown' trope. Thankfully the pushback has resulted in some nicer, more vivid games.
Post by: nightfire on October 03, 2017, 12:42:53 PM
As a layman, I´ve always wondered the following: Is there a reason why CIG couldn´t use simpler (perhaps even in a stylized art style, like Blizzard always uses) models in order to make the game run smoother? From my uninformed outsider´s perspective I can´t help but imagine that most CE limitations would be relatively minor if they could get over how hard it is for the engine to render all the things they need it to.
Well no, because and art style is a matter of choice and depending on the game. It's what they wanted to go with, and they stuck with it.
This I get. But why did they have to go overboard with "fidelity" in the pre-alpha phase? Wouldn't it have been better to use simpler models for flying around during the development phase and focus on, you know, the gameplay and such things instead? For implementing and testing game mechanics and such, wouldn't it have been better to implement low-fidelity models and world entities with Minecraft-style complexity, and flesh them out once the game loop was running?
Post by: dsmart on October 03, 2017, 01:13:10 PM
This I get. But why did they have to go overboard with "fidelity" in the pre-alpha phase? Wouldn't it have been better to use simpler models for flying around during the development phase and focus on, you know, the gameplay and such things instead?
1) He used CryEngine
2) He sold the visual fidelity as the main USP (Unique Selling Point) for the game
With both of the above, he had no choice but to keep going.
Post by: Spunky Munkee on October 04, 2017, 02:12:04 AM
Chris Robbers has reached his highest level of incompetence and exceeded it. Star Citizen is the result.
Post by: N0mad on October 04, 2017, 01:30:51 PM
As a layman, I´ve always wondered the following: Is there a reason why CIG couldn´t use simpler (perhaps even in a stylized art style, like Blizzard always uses) models in order to make the game run smoother? From my uninformed outsider´s perspective I can´t help but imagine that most CE limitations would be relatively minor if they could get over how hard it is for the engine to render all the things they need it to.
I have played with Lumberyard a little (very little) when it first came out (effectively still Cryengine) and it became apparent that Cryengine is really good at making very pretty first person single player shooters, which is all that Crytek needed it to do. It doesn't do MMO games, it doesn't do open world (just levels), it doesn't do space. It loads in levels for a FPS - that is all. Nor will the scripting system allow you to modify it to do any of the above in an easy and fast way - the only option is to delve into the core engine code to make it do these things. This is fine if you've built the engine from scratch and known it in detail, but trying to modify complex code written by someone else (which almost certainly has minimal documentation) is a recipe for disaster as everything you change can cause all sorts of things to break later in ways which are almost impossible to fix. I'm pretty sure this is the problem CIG are have right now.
Before someone says that they employed Crytek engineers for this very reason, I'm sure that those programmers are very talented, but unless they wrote that core engine code then they are just as good as any other programmer for the job of modifying it.
Post by: teufelhunden on October 04, 2017, 01:48:33 PM
Post by: Spunky Munkee on October 04, 2017, 04:15:29 PM
Post by: Greggy_D on October 04, 2017, 07:10:39 PM
Perfection.
Post by: Spunky Munkee on October 04, 2017, 07:53:30 PM
Post by: the_wolfmann on October 05, 2017, 02:08:48 AM
Post by: Motto on October 05, 2017, 02:30:25 AM
Post by: Backer42 on October 05, 2017, 06:48:23 AM
I have played with Lumberyard a little (very little) when it first came out (effectively still Cryengine) and it became apparent that Cryengine is really good at making very pretty first person single player shooters, which is all that Crytek needed it to do.Its engine was first and foremost designed to render a tropical island with an ocean, lakes and lots of vegetation.
A space ship combat game couldn't be farther from that.
They still stumble over the "Z coordinate < arbitary value" underwater shortcut hardcoded everywhere into the engine. Six years after they got it.
Post by: Ghostmaker on October 05, 2017, 09:48:42 AM
I can't help but think, 'God, why didn't that pile of cash wind up in someone else's hands? Harebrained Schemes? 3000AD? Heck, even CDProjekt Red probably wouldn't mind a $160 million infusion.'
:argh:
Post by: Backer42 on October 05, 2017, 01:53:13 PM
Post by: Spunky Munkee on October 05, 2017, 02:04:14 PM
Post by: FredBloggs on October 05, 2017, 05:11:38 PM
He is the LAST person to be a project manager. He made all the wrong decisions and castrated all the experts in his organization who could have steered him straight. I believe that this is a primary reason why key people have left him. The loss of these people has hurt the organization.
It started going downhill since Wingman left CIG...
Post by: Motto on October 06, 2017, 04:18:23 AM
Post by: N0mad on October 06, 2017, 04:26:25 AM
Post by: the_wolfmann on October 06, 2017, 05:16:20 AM
The new laucher is here (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Cy9Dq6twzU)
Is it happening??? :dance:
Post by: dsmart on October 06, 2017, 05:38:42 AM
The beta of the 3.0 pre-Alpha is on the way to Evocati :supaburn:
Tweet storm starts here: https://twitter.com/dsmart/status/916274145444409344
Patch notes: https://pastebin.com/ns8vTSp4
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DLdDOw9W4AAjIyL.jpg)
The most hilarious part? Windows detects this 3.0 build as malware. So there's that. Apparently Microsoft is aware of the issue.
Here's the kicker. The notes read like the 3.0 roadmap. So until the build is actually released, no way to know WHAT actually works atm.
Performance is still abysmal and is worse than 2.6.3. You have to spawn on the other side of the planet with less people in order to get into a server properly.
FYI, RAM/VRAM usage on this Evocati build ---> 21GB / 11GB. I'm not making that up.
I am calling it now. Even though is the beta of a pre-Alpha (<---LOL!!), 3.0 is definitely looking like the MVP an early access. It's over. This is most definitely Freelancer 2.0, but with $160 million of backer money.
The latest burn-down ATV is hilarious. It shows just how inept and incompetent Chris is
Quote
"Erin, Performance is in the toilet on the latest build." - CIG Dev, AtV Oct 5, 2017
"Building games like this, you have to balance visual fidelity with gameplay and scope. You absolutely cannot have it all, and even if you do have it all, something will suffer. Either visual fidelity, or performance." - Derek Smart, July 6, 2015 (http://www.dereksmart.com/2015/07/interstellar-citizens/)
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DLdSbUIWsAYWFip.jpg)
Meanwhile, over at the tribe: https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/comments/74l3gd/first_reports_of_evocati_being_out/
Pure chaos in Evocati:
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DLdnnKEXUAAJ8xv.jpg)
Post by: Flashwit on October 06, 2017, 10:19:45 AM
Once they get this out to backers at large this'll be the first time I actually launch the game in years. I'm sure there will be tons of changes since the last time I played! (lol)
Post by: dsmart on October 06, 2017, 10:37:14 AM
Post by: Flashwit on October 06, 2017, 10:46:51 AM
Post by: JoeBloggs on October 07, 2017, 09:01:15 PM
Look at lines 53-68 in that diff (https://www.diffchecker.com/7nrH3A6u), both weeks, under the subtitle "Crashes".
Those crashing bugs ... from the method names they're all over the place and in reasonably low level stuff that's exercised all the time, e.g.,
- CEntityComponentSystem::UnregisterComponent,
- CSCActorControlStateUsable::QueueIdle,
- CGameRules::PrecacheList,
- PersistenceCache::CCacheMsgHandler::SetChildrenRootParentRecursive.
There's like 30 of these crashes fixed in the last 2 weeks alone!
So
- it's amazing they have this many crashes in foundation level code at this stage, not to mention right when they're supposed to be shipping to Evocati ...
- it's no wonder they can't keep a system running for more than a few minutes ...
- how many are left to fix in their bug queue?
- to those who say that we, out here, don't know game development: Unit tests, anyone? Again, these are low-level methods!
Well... there's a possible reason for that.
If you're making modifications to the Game-Engine, you need to ask for the vendor's (Cryengine) test-cases.
Look like they didn't ship the sources with test-cases. Or they did ship test-cases, and never updated.
From the looks of those bug-reports, they look like junior-level developer bugs that can be easily fixed.
If Amazon Cryengine developers can fix and modify 70% of CryEngine, why can't the developers at RSI/CIG do so?
Also, I'm surprised nobody think about 80-bit, 128-bit long-float. Did anyone know that multiplying 64-bit causes precision?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extended_precision#x86_Extended_Precision_Format
Did anyone not notice this? The CPU internally supports 80-bit precision for 64-bit floats. In order to store 64-bit correctly, you need to use CPU-native C++ types.
If you just save/load in 64-bits, you're gonna cause small rounding errors that will screw-up the real-time physics engine.
Post by: N0mad on October 08, 2017, 12:45:16 AM
If you just save/load in 64-bits, you're gonna cause small rounding errors that will screw-up the real-time physics engine.
Also true for the industry standard 32 bit float values but small errors are manageable when dealing with small maps (which can still be the equivalent of multiples of kilometres in size).
If you want to screw up Physics then I'd imagine the best way to do it is with moving station physics grids. Fair play if they can make it work but since CIG made a Gamescom demo with ramps which killed players then I'd guess not.
Post by: dsmart on October 08, 2017, 05:57:12 PM
Post by: dsmart on October 09, 2017, 04:51:03 PM
Post by: nightfire on October 10, 2017, 12:00:15 AM
$160MSometimes a video says more than a thousand Reddit threads.
Sent from my HTC One using Tapatalk
Post by: ecg on October 10, 2017, 01:17:14 AM
$160M
LMAO - but the SCultists will still manage to put a positive spin on it. Cause that is what they do best.
Post by: N0mad on October 10, 2017, 01:41:54 AM
LMAO - but the SCultists will still manage to put a positive spin on it. Cause that is what they do best.
Since the Shills are banned I will attempt to guess what their response might be to get some discussion going:
Quote
You guys are all idiots, it's a pre-alpha and bugs are normal. Derek is completely wrong, I don't see any evidence that CIG are in any trouble whatsoever they are clearly keeping all the promises they made over the 3.0 Jesus patch release.
Derek is just plain wrong if he thinks that 6 years and $160 million is enough to make the most highly fidelicious real life simulator known to mankind - they need lots more time and money.
Derek Smart is wrong. I bet Derek Smart wishes he could create a game like this. Don't believe anything Derek says. Derek is in a fantasy world. Derek is going to eat his words when it becomes the BDSSE. Derek is so wrong about everything.
And, by the way, I only have a passing interest in Star Citizen. I hardly ever look at any forums about the game. I think I have a fairly realistic and balanced opinion about the game, unlike Derek Smart, who is always wrong.
I think that would be in the ball park for his response.
Post by: dsmart on October 10, 2017, 04:57:52 AM
I think that would be in the ball park for his response.
That's a pretty good summary.
As for those clowns over there, they're still seeing trees where there are rocks in the forest (https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/comments/75cqfw/30_footage_nox_in_cutlass/); and all it took was on janky video to get them to forget all about 3.0 (https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/comments/7590kh/is_30_the_release_that_turns_sc_into_a_game_that/) and look to the future ----> 4.0 :laugh:
(https://i.imgur.com/9rep3Ke.png)
(https://i.imgur.com/N111NUQ.png)
(https://i.imgur.com/5dbSmHR.png)
Post by: Motto on October 10, 2017, 05:46:57 AM
Post by: dsmart on October 10, 2017, 05:49:23 AM
Here's the thing. The same shit they did with the original 3.0.0 (https://pastebin.com/ns8vTSp4) and the 3.0.0a (which came after the weekend release) is what they've done again with this one. You can't tell wtf they've fixed or addressed because there is no distinction between what they fixed now, before, or what is still an issue. They just lump everything in there to make it look like, well, I dunno really what they were going for there. Not to mention the fact that they listed items which they are claiming is already implemented, but as of yesterday, 93% of what they claim is in 3.0, isn't actually IN these builds.
Also, when you consider this bullshit:
Quote
"We're expecting many new players so we wanted to make sure the [3.0] user experience is *really good*. So we've decided to spend more time optimizing and polishing then we have for recent releases"
...you have to wonder wtf they're actually talking about. There are currently over 3000+ bugs in Issue Council for 2.6.3 (https://robertsspaceindustries.com/community/issue-council/star-citizen-alpha/). And with this 3.0, it's safe to say that there are going to be thousands more - which will probably never be fixed. They will get it to "good enough", then fuck off to go do something else that's about making money from whales.
As I've said before, most times, half the shit they show to backers, is all made to generate hype, running local (like at the shows) client/server, or in an editor. Which means that the live experience will be totally different, and complete rubbish.
Here's the example of the Nox parking in the Cutlass.
ATV (July 2017):
3.0 Evocati (Oct 2017):
https://gfycat.com/gifs/detail/ChubbyLargeGossamerwingedbutterfly
It's all shit. They really just rushed this build out to Evocati because of CitizenCon, which is probably when they plan to release it to the PTU.
Quote from: toanoradian" post="477237959
Derek, do you see them releasing a further revision of 3.0, like, 3.0.0c just to keep their promise of 3.0 being that really good one?
Maybe 4.0 isn't the Jesus Patch, but just 3.0.0.1.
Oh most definitely. I believe that 3.0x is the end of the line. They're going to keep refactoring and iterating until the wheels come off. There's so much they promised for 3.0, that it will take another 3-4 years to complete it - before they even start thinking about 4.0.
If they DO survive the next few months, they will do what they've always done. That being, implement the promised features which they can, walk back or ignore those they can't, then leave them in a buggy state. Which is how we get 3000+ bugs currently in 2.6.3. But they're promoting shiny new things in 3.0 which are just the same rubbish that's never getting fixed.
1) Performance is still shit. And it got worse with this build, and it's only going to get even worse when MORE people are able to play it.
2) Netwworking is still shit. But we already knew that. And back when I said they'd be fucking dumb to touch this shit at this point, some people thought I was mad. Until they removed the critical aspects of this from the dev schedule. We've now experienced the results in 3.0 - and they're NEVER going to be able to fix it. It's too late, and they're too far gone. 1000+ client MMO? Fuck you, and get off my ship!
3) Physics is still shit; but somehow they managed to make it a LOT worse in 3.0.
4) The much touted Subsumptionm AI is NON-FUCKING-EXISTENT. It's just scripted NPCs hanging around, glitching, and doing fuck all but taking up space and impacting performance even more.
5) Mission givers don't work. Oh you want a mission, do you? Go ask Miles over there. Assuming he's at the fucking table, and not floating off 20 feet away - glass in hand.
6) The much touted "planetary tech" is as underwhelming as it is mindboggingly boring. And it's buggy as hell. And barren. The one location, Levski, is an absolute slideshow. And that's with just you and the environment.
And that's with two fucking moons and an asteroid. So much for this:
(https://i.imgur.com/54axyWT.jpg)
7) UI, well, I don't even know about that one. But then again, not that I am the one to talk; after all I'm the guy who develops games with the most ridiculous UI, you need to be on the autism spectrum to comprehend it. And that fucking ESC key, man. :negative:
8) There is absolutely NOTHING worth doing in 3.0. Seriously, NOTHING. When backers get this, assuming they can get in a ship, fly to a planet, and enter it - the spectacle will be over in all of 20 mins. Guaranteed. Then, the streamers are going to be doing the same repetitive bullshit for weeks on end because, well, they have nothing.
It's all still a glorified $160M tech demo that's not even a vertical slice, if you can believe that.
What Evocati are now seeing in 3.0 is PRECISELY the bane of these types of games. They're fucking DULL AND BORING if you don't have people to play with, or a robust AI and mission system for solo engagements.
And in 3.0, good fucking luck finding anyone. There could be 8 clients in your instance, and you'd NEVER see them. And when you do, there's NOTHING to do because there is no "game". Six fucking years later.
Even ED suffers from this same thing, and that's why those who don't like it, call it boring. And the funny thing is, you could be peddling rubber dog shit for hours in ED, and get some "fun" from it because everything is just so well put together. Even in my BC/UC games; I spent DECADES developing and improving revolutionary AI (check out my recent 6hr live stream (https://go.twitch.tv/thedereksmart/videos/all)) to alleviate this problem - specifically. Which is why I never even bothered to spend too much time with multiplayer for those games.
This is an absolute travesty. I don't care what anyone says, they've basically blown through all this money, spent all this time - and have this shit to show for it.
I have said it before, I will say it again: someone is going to jail over this because there is NO way on Earth they get away with this. And a bunch of ass-clowns are parked on Reddit creating bullshit theory-crafting threads, instead of inquiring about where the money has gone.
A year ago today, this is a 50K upvoted thread on Reddit (https://www.reddit.com/r/gaming/comments/56xtzr/star_citizen_planet_to_planet_quantum_jumping/) over proof-of-concept that a year later is still nothing more than a pipe dream.
Post by: Greggy_D on October 10, 2017, 06:56:33 AM
LMAO - but the SCultists will still manage to put a positive spin on it. Cause that is what they do best.
ERRRRRRLEEEEEEEE AKKKSESSSSSSS !!!!!!!!!!
Post by: N0mad on October 10, 2017, 11:59:37 AM
3.0 Evocati (Oct):
Well that didn't last long.
Quote
"Star Citizen ..." This video is no longer available due to a copyright claim by MIchael Emmons.
By the same logic, then perhaps he should lodge copyright claims against ALL Star Citizen videos on YouTube (he'll be busy!). I'm sure YouTube will see sense and reinstate it.
Post by: dsmart on October 10, 2017, 12:01:34 PM
Post by: Motto on October 10, 2017, 04:43:35 PM
Post by: Motto on October 10, 2017, 05:16:56 PM
Yeah, I just updated the link with a Goon copy of it.
You should update the blog as well. Or is the copy gone as well now?
Post by: dsmart on October 10, 2017, 08:53:06 PM
Post by: Spunky Munkee on October 10, 2017, 11:07:23 PM
Make Star Citizen the card based game. You could have a Spacemaster who narrates, make it just like D+D. The Cultists will eat it up.
Shit idea, that's why it could happen but I don't think they have time enough to do anything. The end is near, this 3..0 patch sealed their fate. If it peels of 10-20% of the cultists they are finished.
Post by: dsmart on October 11, 2017, 06:28:54 AM
Post by: Motto on October 11, 2017, 07:14:56 AM
Oh, they're attacking you for promising them a video of you actually playing 3.0. Is that coming?
Post by: Motto on October 11, 2017, 07:47:40 AM
Post by: Backer42 on October 11, 2017, 09:30:40 AM
This is supposedly a 3.0 captureWhy is there out-of-focus texture floating at the bottom of the screen?
Post by: N0mad on October 11, 2017, 09:34:41 AM
Why is there out-of-focus texture floating at the bottom of the screen?
I think that's the helmet. It's there for immersion. Together with the need to load all your all cargo by hand (when it's implemented).
I can't wait it will be almost as tedious as doing all these things in real life.
Post by: Backer42 on October 11, 2017, 09:37:50 AM
I think that's the helmet. It's their for immersion.What does a 1842 diving helmet inside a 2942 space game?
Quote
Together with the need to load all your all cargo by hand (when it's implemented).Great!
Post by: dsmart on October 11, 2017, 10:42:51 AM
And if you hosted it on your own forum? Would they threaten you with legal action?
They could try. They would fail. Then I'd know who they are. And we'll end up in space court, in which I will drag CIG. They're not dumb enough to pull that stunt with me.
Quote
Oh, they're attacking you for promising them a video of you actually playing 3.0. Is that coming?
That was before we realized that they had implemented a watermark.
Plus, it would be a violation of the NDA (which is in fact legally enforceable btw). Then CIG could use that to identify the person with the shared account that I have access to. If it were my Evocati account, I wouldn't care because everyone knows that there's nothing I welcome more than to end up in court with them so that I can blow the lid on everything. But that would also burn the account.
Regardless of the fact that I have no reason to believe that they would dare do anything dumb enough for them to end up in a legal situation with me, the person with the account doesn't want to burn their account. Especially since playing the game requires a lot of post-processing to remove the watermark everywhere. Nobody has time for that, other than in short clips like the ones we've seen cropping up.
It's always hilarious to me that they get all their important information through me, and not the half-wit they gave $160M to.
Post by: dsmart on October 11, 2017, 10:45:05 AM
Why is there out-of-focus texture floating at the bottom of the screen?
It's the helmet (with a DOF pass). Seriously, they thought this was a good idea. Because immersion.
Post by: Backer42 on October 11, 2017, 11:03:32 AM
It's the helmet (with a DOF pass). Seriously, they thought this was a good idea. Because immersion.Yes, I always wanted to view my game world through a small window (which is my monitor) and then have that window even more reduced by a floating texture.
For a truly 1990 12-14 inch CRT Wing Commander experience!
Post by: Motto on October 12, 2017, 04:03:12 AM
(https://i.redd.it/2vr15xv68crz.png)
Now doesn't look Delamar lovely this time of year?
Post by: N0mad on October 12, 2017, 04:38:59 AM
Post by: dsmart on October 12, 2017, 07:40:12 AM
But once you do, you'll get this beautiful vista:
(https://i.redd.it/2vr15xv68crz.png)
Now doesn't look Delamar lovely this time of year?
That's been photoshopped btw. And it's an in-editor shot.
Post by: Motto on October 12, 2017, 07:55:24 AM
Post by: dsmart on October 12, 2017, 08:11:34 AM
So, in 3.0 it's even worse? :vince:
Yes. And it beggars belief. That's precisely why, even for the most anticipated patch, there aren't that many leaks like in the past.
It's worse than 2.6.x if you can believe that.
Post by: dsmart on October 12, 2017, 08:11:59 AM
Quote
So we’re constantly working on that. We’re working on optimizing code but we’re actually in the middle of a massive backend rewrite – completely changing the way the serialization works to a much more efficient, logical way. Which is the item port- the item 2.0 system we’ve talked about, which we’ve recently got going. It is a fundamental part of that, because we’re restructuring some of the way that entities are set up – so we’re changing it completely from the way it was done in the old CryEngine to be a very component-based setup, much more logical, and we’re only really serializing data that we need to serialize rather than big globs of data and it’s not nearly as, I guess, fixed as the old system was. Because the old system was really built for small, 16 player or 8 player, multiplayer games – deathmatch, FPS shooter-style whereas we’ve got something that we need to be up for long times, hours or days of time have the server up and have hundreds of people on it.
So our ability to scale has been much bigger, it’s something we’ve been working on for quite a long time, and we’re still working on it, we’re getting close to having some fruits of it being born in the near future. So this is very much analogous to us using, when we did the zone system and moving to 64-bit math instead of 32-bit math. All those things sort of paid off – what allowed us to be able to do Crusader and the local physical grids and all the cool stuff that you’ve seen from 2.0 onwards and a lot of this other backend stuff we’re working on is going to make the experience much better, much smoother for you and have a higher framerate on the server – one of the reasons why people see desync issues now, and maybe some precision issues is the actual server when it’s under load is running at actually quite a low framerate, even compared to clients.
You could be on a client running at 40 or 50 frames, yet the server is only running at 10 or 15 frames. Now the server running at 10 or 15 frames is simulating physics only at 10 or 15 frames, which means there are big steps between each frame, whereas on your local machine, you’ve got much smaller steps, so what can happen is, on the server, you could be here – which is something that happened in the EVA situation – and the next frame of what the server thinks you’re doing is, like you’re player is half-way in the wall of the ship – he’s moving outside. But on your local client, you haven’t – because you have all the fidelity whereas on the server, it goes, “oh look, he’s half way in the world, so I’ll give him a big impulse to try get him out” whereas the server isn’t in the same position which basically catapults your EVA person – could potentially kill him from the damage and that was one of the things that was creating, say, the deaths that you would see in an EVA-transition going in and out.
And partly that was because the server on the physics step was running at a much slower framerate than the client so we’re working on things to make all that better, it’s a work-in-progress, it will take a little while to get goingbut once it does, it will be better and there will be a lot more people in the instances and we’ll be moving smoothly. So these are all things that the network team is working on – I wish we had more members of the network team, we have essentially about 4 engineers that work on the game server network side and then we have another 3 that working in the backend services side. But if any of you out there are network engineers and wanna work on a really ambitious game, let us know, because we’ve had open positions for this for quite a while.
We’re always looking for good people because the things that we need is networkers, there’s a big need for us on the engineering side, AI is a big need and physics – if there’s any physics geniuses out there but if you talk to anyone in the game business, those are all the areas that are it’s genuinely hard to find people. We’re moving along and it’s going to be pretty cool when it’s all said and done, cause it’s basically building a system, I’ve talked about it before, that the next generation of how you build these online cloud-driven systems, so we can distribute it across many servers and process more than you would in traditional single-server setups.
So anyway, probably a long answer for whether or not there will be spaces for more additional pilot players, but there you go.“
Post by: Motto on October 12, 2017, 08:23:05 AM
Post by: dsmart on October 14, 2017, 10:15:53 AM
Post by: Spunky Munkee on October 14, 2017, 12:48:35 PM
Post by: ChrisIhao on October 14, 2017, 09:33:42 PM
We are in unknown territory... So you don't know what the hell you are doing. Yeah, that fits. No frigging way they will get this crap to work. Project is nearing its death throes.
Lol. We are the chosen few. :lesnick:
Post by: dsmart on October 15, 2017, 05:40:10 AM
We are in unknown territory... So you don't know what the hell you are doing. Yeah, that fits. No frigging way they will get this crap to work. Project is nearing its death throes.
The wheels have not only come off, but they're rolling down the hill over at the next town. All we're waiting for now is to see when the chassis itself stops moving.
Post by: dsmart on October 15, 2017, 04:53:24 PM
https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/comments/76lqca/30_spoilers_from_my_evocati_friend/
It's curious to me why CIG didn't just release to Evocati the 3.0 build that PC Gamer totally played this Summer (http://www.pcgamer.com/first-man-on-the-moon-hands-on-with-star-citizen-alpha-30/)
Post by: Greggy_D on October 15, 2017, 06:12:19 PM
Post by: satoru on October 15, 2017, 07:22:31 PM
Post by: dsmart on October 16, 2017, 04:58:21 AM
They moved Miles from oct 9th to Oct 30th? Hey guys I don't think you understand how these 'sprints' work.
I think they're still trying to convince him that he can be a mission giver fulltime, without his hobbo night job. :laugh:
Post by: dsmart on October 16, 2017, 05:47:34 AM
Today's Evocati leaks:
https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/comments/76lqca/30_spoilers_from_my_evocati_friend/
It's curious to me why CIG didn't just release to Evocati the 3.0 build that PC Gamer totally played this Summer (http://www.pcgamer.com/first-man-on-the-moon-hands-on-with-star-citizen-alpha-30/)
Ho Lee Cow! This thread has some hilarious comments.
https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/comments/76lqca/30_spoilers_from_my_evocati_friend/dofc7bw/
https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/comments/76lqca/30_spoilers_from_my_evocati_friend/dofqmol/
CIG dev chimes in:
https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/comments/76lqca/30_spoilers_from_my_evocati_friend/dofpejc/
I hope they realize that I've been telling them 3.0 was shit forever and a day. Even recently as last week (http://dereksmart.com/2017/10/star-citizen-five-years-ago/).
My favorite. Yeah, that's totally seamless space<->planet transition, and not instances with trigger points in them.
Quote
Q: How's the moons?
A: Tricky to get to atm. When first QTing to a moon, the ship stops about 500km away, so you have to go back to the star map app and select 1 of 6 bouys or "OMs" to get closer to them. Then you have to max out your ship's speed with AB to travel about 100km to reach an outpost or station. For example, from Port Olisar to Levski, you select Delamar as your destination on the star map app, then after arriving you select OM3 to get close to Levski, then after that you point your ship towards where Levski should be and you wait about 5 minutes in max speed to get to the vicinity of Levski where you can ping the ATC guy to give you a hangar to land on. The moons themselves only have 5-7 outposts marked on the star map, but there are roads, derelicts and un-marked buildings that you can explore just by flying around. Other than that, the moons are very sparse between marked outposts and bikes are too buggy to effectively roam around moons.
Post by: Motto on October 16, 2017, 06:37:52 AM
Post by: satoru on October 16, 2017, 05:11:44 PM
They moved Miles from oct 9th to Oct 30th? Hey guys I don't think you understand how these 'sprints' work.
I think they're still trying to convince him that he can be a mission giver fulltime, without his hobbo night job. :laugh:
If you had to work inside that Frakenstien engine even a virtual version of yourself would be driven to drink :lol:
Post by: GaryII on October 18, 2017, 05:58:01 AM
https://robertsspaceindustries.com/spectrum/community/SC/forum/3/thread/game-changer-price-estimates
lol, SC has already too many ships and ZERO gameplay...
Another disappointment in 2017 about SC...
Post by: Motto on October 18, 2017, 06:07:07 AM
After the previous disappointing sale, this one will most likely attract even less buyers. The hype is over Chris, the thrill is gone. Deliver, or go broke.
Post by: GaryII on October 18, 2017, 06:34:00 AM
After the previous disappointing sale, this one will most likely attract even less buyers. The hype is over Chris, the thrill is gone. Deliver, or go broke.
Yes, I think they wont hit last years numbers at end of 2017 big sales...so I guess they will go all in and will put on the sale all "rare" ships...
In 2017 is even hard to read how SC fanboys accept all this disaster as normal game development...
Post by: dsmart on October 18, 2017, 09:29:52 AM
A quick scan shows a lot of No's on the would you buy it question. This is still an open comment too: The fact that people are discussing such obscenely high amounts for in-game ships like it was a perfectly reasonable thing shows just how completely unreasonable many in this community have become.
After the previous disappointing sale, this one will most likely attract even less buyers. The hype is over Chris, the thrill is gone. Deliver, or go broke.
Stop spreading FUD! Don't forget the plan. We WANT those fucking clowns to keep giving him money, even if just a little. The fallout after the impending collapse will be all the more glorious. :colbert:
Post by: premiumnugz on October 18, 2017, 09:30:56 AM
Quote
Ya. Maybe its an epic class ship given FREE to all backers as of the 5th Anniversary ???
Now that would be a game changer.
lol !!!
Quote
I hope you have a prescription for what you're taking.
:laugh:
Looks like the party is finally over Chris... Literally nobody as of my time of reading is planning to buy it, wow.
Post by: ChrisIhao on October 18, 2017, 12:02:19 PM
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Post by: dsmart on October 18, 2017, 12:35:52 PM
I think the game changer is a farming ship where you get a Harvest moon like mode, manually collecting tomatoes, onions etc. from your fields that have to be manually loaded onto ships. But wait, thats not all. You can also fish very special looking fish with your new Spacerod (tm), only available to consierge level backers, for putting in your hangar fish tank. They can obviously breed, and if you are very very lucky you will earn a special emblem that you can decorate your ship with, after paying a fee of 20 usd (only fresh cash, no uec allowed). It will be awesome!
Shockingly, this is the game changer.
(https://i.imgur.com/LyhyLCq.png)
(https://i.imgur.com/VyZLI66.png)
Post by: ChrisIhao on October 18, 2017, 12:50:31 PM
I mean, how else is this supposed to be a game changer? We already have the Idrises that wont see the light until 2040 sometime (perhaps).
Post by: Motto on October 18, 2017, 01:02:07 PM
But, if you need proof of how stupid backers really are, just look here (https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/comments/777p1y/concierge_news_sneak_preview_for_citizencon/). They are all having fantasies about how that
Hey Chris, if you're reading here, I got a tip. Make it a base building ship that turns/expands into a base once it has landed and make that a one time exercise. So if they want to do it again, they have to buy a new basebuilding ship. That'll give your grandchildren's children still a steady income with those 100 star systems.
Post by: N0mad on October 18, 2017, 01:26:48 PM
Post by: nightfire on October 18, 2017, 01:57:28 PM
How exactly does that ship "change" the game? or is that a silly thing to ask?Since it will introduce a hundred new rendering and collision bugs, of course it’s going change the game! :D
Post by: ChrisIhao on October 18, 2017, 01:58:32 PM
Post by: Motto on October 18, 2017, 02:11:04 PM
Post by: dsmart on October 18, 2017, 02:19:21 PM
You forgot to mention that they did a major overhaul on the ship matrix (https://robertsspaceindustries.com/comm-link/engineering/16170-The-Shipyard-Ship-Mass) as well.
But, if you need proof of how stupid backers really are, just look here (https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/comments/777p1y/concierge_news_sneak_preview_for_citizencon/). They are all having fantasies about how thatshipJPEG could be the gamechanger by claiming how it might work. They are completely bonkers :vince:
Hey Chris, if you're reading here, I got a tip. Make it a base building ship that turns/expands into a base once it has landed and make that a one time exercise. So if they want to do it again, they have to buy a new basebuilding ship. That'll give your grandchildren's children still a steady income with those 100 star systems.
They're fucking nuts. They liken collecting JPEGs of ships to trading cards. Except they're worthless.
Post by: dsmart on October 18, 2017, 02:19:50 PM
How exactly does that ship "change" the game? or is that a silly thing to ask?Since it will introduce a hundred new rendering and collision bugs, of course it’s going change the game! :D
Ooooh, I totally see what you did there. :vince:
Post by: dsmart on October 18, 2017, 02:21:17 PM
Chris is too busy integrating the new Norwegian studios they recently have opened.
Wait! Wot? :magical:
Post by: ChrisIhao on October 18, 2017, 03:42:06 PM
The problem is that I paid for the original vision, but I got more than I bargained for. If we take the car metaphor further: imagine that you paid for a concept car, lets say the Tesla model X, which we can imagine was crowd funded by customers sharing the "vision" of the creators. They were promised a sports utility vehicle that has all the modern facilities you could expect from a modern car at this price range.
However, as money started rolling in big time, instead of speeding up the development and focusing all the efforts on finishing the car, then thinking about developing new cars, they decided that the model X, although not realistically achievable within any given time schedules, should be capable of atmospheric flight. Of course this represented a whole set of new problems for the developers, as no one had done anything similar before, but they were dead set on making the car. If this meant that the car, which was promised to be launching the middle of next year, would be delayed with another year, so be it. To actually be able to finance the car, they started to sell new concepts of cars which also included new areas of usage, which meant that they suddenly had to spread their efforts even further and begin working on these new concepts to keep the new customers satisfied.
Even more money started rolling in, and Tesla decided: "nah, this isnt perfect enough, we need the model x to be able to break out of the atmosphere and land on the moon". This meant that they had to change the entire engine instead of simply modifying it, which meant that they had to go back to the drawing board once again and redesign essential parts of it, while also including atmospheric shielding to make it possible to re-enter the atmosphere upon returning. Time schedules were further skewed and promises again were not kept. As they realized that this started to become a trend, Tesla suddenly decided that the best strategy at this point were to simply stop promising things.
The original backers which simply wanted a nice car to get to work, the supermarket or their woodland cabins started wondering what was happening. What would come next? That the car, which basically still was a rough model you could sit inside of to get the feel of it, was to be able to reach Mars instead of simply the moon? The backers knew that since the car werent even be able to drive around properly yet, much less to achieve atmospheric flight, so a lot of them started reconsidering if they wanted to gamble on the car even leaving the concept stage, with so much of their hard earned money invested into this project. The new promised concept cars seemed even further away. Backers started pulling out and demanded refunds, which in turn required Tesla to come up with ways to keep the funding going. They then returned to what had worked so well before; to sell even more concepts, while the backers who paid for the original concept of a road vehicle had nothing substantial to show for. What they do get is a pre-alpha model they can take home, but they can only drive around in their driveways for now, due to a lot of technical problems. Tesla again says; it takes as long as it takes, prompting even more people stop believing in the ever expanding vision of the heads of Tesla. Instead of having this second rate car standing around in their garage doing nothing, they decide that enough is enough.
This is honestly how I feel about this whole thing. I backed before there even was planned a fps aspect in the game, and already at the time this was introduced I was somewhat skeptical. I decided to back SC because it was supposed to be a spiritual sequel to the Wing Commander series, which I loved so much back in the day, and that in a big way. I spent exactly $1000 buying several interesting ships, which seem to now drown in the huge amount of new concepts, simply based on the fact that I wanted a great space simulator, not a life simulator. I do however love the "idea" of being able to land and exit a space craft, but not if this detracts from the initial core concept of the game. A glorious space sim needs to have a lot of available systems and sectors to interesting, but at this rate we will sadly have only two or three "finished" systems two years from now.
That said; of course this is a voluntary endeavor, and no one is forcing anyone into something, and in my case I just sold off everything except from a core package of around 70 dollars (which includes SQ42). I think I will keep this one, but no way if I am putting more money into this as long as 3.0 is the best they can come up with.
Post by: Spunky Munkee on October 18, 2017, 04:42:08 PM
Post by: dsmart on October 18, 2017, 06:15:18 PM
Ok. Here is a long post I just posted on one of those Reddit threads (deleted in an hour probably):
Welcome to the forum. Don't worry, as long as you're not here to troll us, you're more than welcome. It's not Reddit. We're not trying to convince anyone of anything, and nobody is going to up or down vote you. Backer, hater, neutral or whatever, we don't care. We're just here for the lols of this on-going train wreck.
Anyway, your analogy is a perfect take on similar ones that some of us have come up with over the years. Which is hilarious because some of those other guys completely entangle it when they talk about 3.0 saying crap like "Yeah, they promised us that 3.0, but what we have now is so much bigger and better" <---- :lol:
Quote
I backed before there even was planned a fps aspect in the game, and already at the time this was introduced I was somewhat skeptical.
I believe that fps was always in the original design. They only tacked on the Godawful Star Marine as a test bed; in the same way that Arena Commander was the test bed for the flight combat.
Quote
That said; of course this is a voluntary endeavor, and no one is forcing anyone into something
Except for the part where they've now stopped giving refunds; even though they have failed to deliver on promises.
Quote
and in my case I just sold off everything except from a core package of around 70 dollars (which includes SQ42). I think I will keep this one, but no way if I am putting more money into this as long as 3.0 is the best they can come up with.
That's pretty reasonable. You can buy a bad game for $70 and not get a refund.
Post by: Ghostmaker on October 19, 2017, 06:55:07 PM
Quote from: dsmart
That's pretty reasonable. You can buy a bad game for $70 and not get a refund.
LOL (http://store.steampowered.com/steam_refunds/) :smug:
Post by: GaryII on October 20, 2017, 04:24:09 AM
That's pretty reasonable. You can buy a bad game for $70 and not get a refund.
Or you can buy "Limited jpg Gamechanger" for 850$ and also not get a refund :haw:
Post by: Motto on October 20, 2017, 04:32:06 AM
Post by: Greggy_D on October 20, 2017, 05:42:08 AM
Post by: Motto on October 20, 2017, 05:53:01 AM
Post by: David-2 on October 20, 2017, 06:52:39 AM
Quote
... will go on sale ... and be in limited quantities."
Yes, as if it was a print individually pulled by the artist from a deteriorating matrix of limited lifespan, then hand numbered and signed.
Instead, of course, being a bunch of electrons which can be duplicated for free any number of times.
Post by: Motto on October 20, 2017, 07:22:00 AM
Post by: dsmart on October 20, 2017, 07:26:55 AM
(https://i.imgur.com/tPrU1cs.png)
It's truly hilarious.
https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/comments/77ku2n/the_co_pioneer_will_go_on_sale_oct_27th_and_cost/
Post by: Greggy_D on October 20, 2017, 07:31:56 AM
There is only one reason for it being a limited edition and that is that you can only buy it with fresh cash. All the other things like attracting whales with the word "limited" is just a bonus. Target the 2K whale group with a limitation of 2.000 copies and that's another 1.7 million to get them until X-Mas.
Bingo...the "limited" moniker is going to trigger those who would usually be on the fence into "gotta buy it now" lemmings.
The morons over on the SC reddit are already theory crafting (dreaming) about how the ship is going to work. Never mind that CIG still can't code a buggy going up a ramp.
Post by: dsmart on October 20, 2017, 08:39:14 AM
There is only one reason for it being a limited edition and that is that you can only buy it with fresh cash. All the other things like attracting whales with the word "limited" is just a bonus. Target the 2K whale group with a limitation of 2.000 copies and that's another 1.7 million to get them until X-Mas.
Bingo...the "limited" moniker is going to trigger those who would usually be on the fence into "gotta buy it now" lemmings.
The morons over on the SC reddit are already theory crafting (dreaming) about how the ship is going to work. Never mind that CIG still can't code a buggy going up a ramp.
Forget about the coding part. They still have to build the ship. Then get it into the game. No mention nothing of the gameplay mechanics it is supposed to be promoting.
$850 for a JPEG
Post by: David-2 on October 20, 2017, 08:46:55 AM
Post by: Motto on October 20, 2017, 11:57:58 AM
Post by: ChrisIhao on October 21, 2017, 01:42:14 AM
Ok. Here is a long post I just posted on one of those Reddit threads (deleted in an hour probably):
Welcome to the forum. Don't worry, as long as you're not here to troll us, you're more than welcome. It's not Reddit. We're not trying to convince anyone of anything, and nobody is going to up or down vote you. Backer, hater, neutral or whatever, we don't care. We're just here for the lols of this on-going train wreck.
Anyway, your analogy is a perfect take on similar ones that some of us have come up with over the years. Which is hilarious because some of those other guys completely entangle it when they talk about 3.0 saying crap like "Yeah, they promised us that 3.0, but what we have now is so much bigger and better" <---- :lol:QuoteI backed before there even was planned a fps aspect in the game, and already at the time this was introduced I was somewhat skeptical.
I believe that fps was always in the original design. They only tacked on the Godawful Star Marine as a test bed; in the same way that Arena Commander was the test bed for the flight combat.QuoteThat said; of course this is a voluntary endeavor, and no one is forcing anyone into something
Except for the part where they've now stopped giving refunds; even though they have failed to deliver on promises.Quoteand in my case I just sold off everything except from a core package of around 70 dollars (which includes SQ42). I think I will keep this one, but no way if I am putting more money into this as long as 3.0 is the best they can come up with.
That's pretty reasonable. You can buy a bad game for $70 and not get a refund.
Late answer here but no, I didnt expect my post HERE to be deleted. I meant on Reddit. Suprisingly it didnt happen. Times are a changing on the SC subreddit :golfclap:
Actually I remember, early after the post-kickstarter stretch goals were introduced, that ship boarding was included in stretch goal five (3.5 mill usd). Just check the strech goals page. Considering the planetary landings were not added until much later, the fps part would be pretty limited. Like a lobby while being docked at a station or a planet. In fact I think I remember discussions about planetside landings being cutscenes which led to menus with trading etc. I think the fps implementation was pretty minuscule if you are correct.
Post by: dsmart on October 21, 2017, 04:06:59 AM
Late answer here but no, I didnt expect my post HERE to be deleted. I meant on Reddit. Suprisingly it didnt happen. Times are a changing on the SC subreddit :golfclap:
Yeah, the tide has changed. But that's only because the more reasonable voices are drowning out the zealots. And also even some zealots are seeing the writing on the wall now; and nobody likes to look stupid.
Quote
Actually I remember, early after the post-kickstarter stretch goals were introduced, that ship boarding was included in stretch goal five (3.5 mill usd). Just check the strech goals page. Considering the planetary landings were not added until much later, the fps part would be pretty limited. Like a lobby while being docked at a station or a planet. In fact I think I remember discussions about planetside landings being cutscenes which led to menus with trading etc. I think the fps implementation was pretty minuscule if you are correct.
Both FPS and planetary landings were always in the stretch goals.
Post by: ChrisIhao on October 21, 2017, 05:53:00 AM
Post by: dsmart on October 21, 2017, 06:12:42 AM
Quote
One persistent bug was a memory leak issue where the game (either on the client or server side) soaked up more and more system RAM until it crashed. The team has been squashing this bug whenever they find it, but with performance issues like this, there is rarely a single solution. As more mechanics and code are implemented, any one of them can cause the issue to return.- Gee, it's almost as if that Derek Smart guy called this one the same day 3.0 was released on Oct 5th.
According to this, 3.0 probably won't hit the PTU until sometime around the end of the year - assuming they're brave enough to pull that stunt like they did with 2.0 and 2.6.
(https://robertsspaceindustries.com/media/j56kya0yqv9zor/source/Must-FIx-Issues_102017.png)
Also, both 3.1 and 3.2 sections have now been removed from the schedule report. That's pretty ominous if you ask me. MVP here we come!
FYI, the latest Evocati 3.00F build is pure crap. The more they "fix", the more problems show up. Performance issues, crashes, all still very much a thing.
Post by: dsmart on October 21, 2017, 06:13:52 AM
Ok. But planetary fps combat was the 20 mill goal. On "certain lawless planets". Dont fit the bill if planetary landings were already in the pipeline before this. Sure you arent mixing up "being able to land on planets", as in automated landing with interaction menus, with seamless in-cockpit landings?
Yeah. Don't forget one important thing: They've been making up all this shit on-the-fly, with no design docs, nor correlation to the actual games they claimed to be building.
Post by: ChrisIhao on October 21, 2017, 06:35:49 AM
Oh, and I love the 54 mill stretch goal: "More Detailed AI Activities – we’ll add ten distinct types of AI character roles on planetside environments! At $54 million, this includes Bartender, Doctor, Entertainer, Nurse, Sanitation Worker, Security Guard, Shopper, Tourist, Vagrant and Vandal. Future AI roles will be added with future stretch goals! Each additional ‘class’ of character will be fully expressive and have a role to play in Star Citizen’s planetside interaction AND the game’s greater economy."
Yeah, right. More like Miles Eckhart and a bunch of brainless, "get stuck in doors" zombies. No further mention of this in other goals either. Coherent? Nah.
Been reading your blogs since about 1.5 years ago btw. Lots of fun following this farce.
Post by: dsmart on October 21, 2017, 06:39:22 AM
Yeah, I know. Should be a reference to this in the dictionary under "talking out of your ass", as in Roberts talking from a stage. :aaaaa:
Yes. And that's precisely what doomed the project.
Quote
Been reading your blogs since about 1.5 years ago btw. Lots of fun following this farce.
Been one helluva ride. :supaburn:
Post by: David-2 on October 21, 2017, 09:34:49 AM
Quote
One persistent bug was a memory leak issue where the game (either on the client or server side) soaked up more and more system RAM until it crashed. The team has been squashing this bug whenever they find it, ....
I've been in software development for 40+ years. When we find a memory leak - it's a bug, each time. it isn't just one bug that exists in multiple places in the code. Each individual instance is its own bug.
So ... if one of those 24..26 ship stoppers is a "memory leak" that is actually a bunch of different memory leaks in different places in the source code, each one of which has to be individually found and nailed ... how many ship stoppers do they really have?
And what if they're doing this for other ship stoppers. E.g., a bug which is written as "UI for Mobiglass is wrong" might actually be 5..10 different bugs that each have to be found and fixed ...
(Not that I believe in their count anyway; I want to make that clear. It's just that their bullshit excuses are as badly done as their "game". And no, despite 40+ years writing compilers, performance monitors, static code analyzers, desktop applications, and high-availability back-end servers, I am, sadly, not a "game developer". So I guess my opinion is bullshit too, huh?)
(BTW, based on previous bug notes in their "release notes" they're using C++. C++ before the 2011 standard was notorious for the ease with which you could write code that had memory problems: leaks, double deletes, accessing memory after deletion, accessing memory out of bounds, etc. That's what gave rise to Java, C#, etc. However. There's no reason on new code anymore to be using pre C++11. It is still possible in modern C++, with modern best practices, to write memory leaks/access out of bounds/etc. But it should be damn unlikely, if you're doing it right. But I guess we all know they're not doing it right.)
Post by: Motto on October 21, 2017, 11:34:22 AM
Post by: dsmart on October 21, 2017, 11:45:27 AM
QuoteOne persistent bug was a memory leak issue where the game (either on the client or server side) soaked up more and more system RAM until it crashed. The team has been squashing this bug whenever they find it, ....
I've been in software development for 40+ years. When we find a memory leak - it's a bug, each time. it isn't just one bug that exists in multiple places in the code. Each individual instance is its own bug.
So ... if one of those 24..26 ship stoppers is a "memory leak" that is actually a bunch of different memory leaks in different places in the source code, each one of which has to be individually found and nailed ... how many ship stoppers do they really have?
And what if they're doing this for other ship stoppers. E.g., a bug which is written as "UI for Mobiglass is wrong" might actually be 5..10 different bugs that each have to be found and fixed ...
(Not that I believe in their count anyway; I want to make that clear. It's just that their bullshit excuses are as badly done as their "game". And no, despite 40+ years writing compilers, performance monitors, static code analyzers, desktop applications, and high-availability back-end servers, I am, sadly, not a "game developer". So I guess my opinion is bullshit too, huh?)
(BTW, based on previous bug notes in their "release notes" they're using C++. C++ before the 2011 standard was notorious for the ease with which you could write code that had memory problems: leaks, double deletes, accessing memory after deletion, accessing memory out of bounds, etc. That's what gave rise to Java, C#, etc. However. There's no reason on new code anymore to be using pre C++11. It is still possible in modern C++, with modern best practices, to write memory leaks/access out of bounds/etc. But it should be damn unlikely, if you're doing it right. But I guess we all know they're not doing it right.)
Yeah, but clearly you don't know anything about software development :colbert:
Post by: StanTheMan on October 21, 2017, 06:13:48 PM
Quote
Yeah, but clearly you don't know anything about software development :colbert:
My thoughts exactly ...
Post by: Andrew on October 21, 2017, 06:21:10 PM
There's no reason on new code anymore to be using pre C++11.
What if your Engine has a codebase that was developed way before 2011? Maybe that forces some problems on them?
Really asking, I have no clue.
Post by: dsmart on October 21, 2017, 06:45:12 PM
There's no reason on new code anymore to be using pre C++11.
What if your Engine has a codebase that was developed way before 2011? Maybe that forces some problems on them?
Really asking, I have no clue.
It's backwards compatible. The only time you need to make any changes are when syntaxes change. And that hasn't happened to any greater degree for decades.
Post by: David-2 on October 21, 2017, 09:14:59 PM
What if your Engine has a codebase that was developed way before 2011? Maybe that forces some problems on them?
Do not mistake the "engine" - which provides a framework for graphics and user interface and multitasking and so on - with the absolutely enormous mass of code you have to write to get an actual game.
Everything they talk about when they they're bullshitting about "item 2.0", local physics grids, "subsumption AI" (as if), the (as yet nonexistent) gameplay, health and damage and all the calculations behind the stuff that's displayed on the "mobiglas", the store where you can look at and try on and buy clothes, the procedurally generated whatevers, the behavior about menus and "inner thoughts" and so on ... all of that and much much much more is their own, not the engine.
And all of the code you write can be in modern C++ even if the APIs you call are in an earlier version of C++ (or even in C). And all of that API can be wrapped (one time!) to provide a modern look (wrapping raw pointers with smart pointers, for example).
Post by: JoeBloggs on October 22, 2017, 05:11:40 PM
LOL, Derek. After you posted that, nobody else posted about game-engines.
Post by: JoeBloggs on October 22, 2017, 05:17:35 PM
Memory leaks are easy to fix.
Does CIG buy memory-leak checkers for their staff?
See:
https://stackoverflow.com/questions/6261201/how-to-find-memory-leak-in-a-c-code-project
The original CryEngine doesn't have any memory leaks. They have two versions - Debug and Release build. Are they shipping debug builds?
Does CIG have build Star Citizen with Cry's built-in bug reporter, crash reporter tools?
Does CIG hire developers with proficiency to hunt-down bugs?, profile the code?
I have a hunch they hire these interns or very junior developers who make good presentation videos and poor code.
Post by: Spunky Munkee on October 23, 2017, 04:03:01 AM
Robbers ought to hold one in his hands at the convention and claim that CIG invented it. It will just take another 20 million to put it into production in his new plant in China. All backers who buy a $2500 package will get their very own in the mail............... once the game is completed.
Post by: Aya Reiko on October 23, 2017, 10:37:37 AM
All they need is one of those code readers that you plug into your car and it will run the problems down for you. It's the perfect took for finding all the lines of faulty code. It tells you what line was at fault and tells you what to replace it with.It's one thing to break the scale, however that thing would melt on its first use when looking at CRobert's code.
Robbers ought to hold one in his hands at the convention and claim that CIG invented it. It will just take another 20 million to put it into production in his new plant in China. All backers who buy a $2500 package will get their very own in the mail............... once the game is completed.
Post by: Motto on October 23, 2017, 11:55:40 PM
With that, lets see what’s going on this week:
Earlier today we released the newest episode of Citizens of the Stars! Twitch streamer Grakees talks about breaking the game for fun and hugs. Then Paul Vaden gets his chance to unseat Mike Jones as the Quantum Question champion. Catch the latest episode here.
On Tuesday, the writers will release their weekly Lore Post. These in-fiction stories help to give life to the living, breathing universe we aim to create.
Later this week, Loremakers Guide to the Galaxy returns. Which system will they take us to this Wednesday? Keep an eye on our playlist for the newest episode here
Then on Thursday, a new episode of Around the Verse and the most up-to-date bug count on Burndown!
Last, but certainly not least is Citizen Con 2947! We have an entire day of panels, demos, Q&A sessions and more. We’re also streaming it all on our Twitch Channel for those who can’t make it out to Frankfurt to join us in person. Be sure to check out everything we have in store by visiting our Citizen Con Details page.
My God, this looks like a fucking Tv Guide. Hey Guys, you're supposed to be making a videogame. Clearly you're focusing on the wrong half of that word. It's the game part that should have the emphasis!
Post by: nightfire on October 24, 2017, 02:40:10 AM
On Tuesday, the writers will release their weekly Lore Post. These in-fiction stories help to give life to the living, breathing universe we aim to create.
Maybe focus less on writing stories, and focus more on writing code? I’m sure that would help to give life to the universe much more.
Post by: N0mad on October 24, 2017, 03:03:34 AM
On Tuesday, the writers will release their weekly Lore Post. These in-fiction stories help to give life to the living, breathing universe we aim to create.
Maybe focus less on writing stories, and focus more on writing code? I’m sure that would help to give life to the universe much more.
That's now the main business of Star Citizen, it's a giant JPEG selling PR machine designed to keep the hype train going for as long as possible. They'll never be able to make a game which can meet any of the unrealistic expectations they've encouraged all the backers to have. Never mind the fact that they seem unable to make anything which doesn't crash at the moment.
CitizenCon this year will be the make or break IMO, if they pull off an amazing (fake) tech demo then they can keep the backers fooled for another year. If they try and show off 3.0 as it is now (which I believe is the current plan) then all the zealots are going to realise that their expensive Jpegs are never going to make it into the game and stop buying.
Post by: Motto on October 24, 2017, 03:31:56 AM
Post by: StanTheMan on October 24, 2017, 04:41:07 AM
On Tuesday, the writers will release their weekly Lore Post. These in-fiction stories help to give life to the living, breathing universe we aim to create.
Maybe focus less on writing stories, and focus more on writing code? I’m sure that would help to give life to the universe much more.
That's now the main business of Star Citizen, it's a giant JPEG selling PR machine designed to keep the hype train going for as long as possible. They'll never be able to make a game which can meet any of the unrealistic expectations they've encouraged all the backers to have. Never mind the fact that they seem unable to make anything which doesn't crash at the moment.
CitizenCon this year will be the make or break IMO, if they pull off an amazing (fake) tech demo then they can keep the backers fooled for another year. If they try and show off 3.0 as it is now (which I believe is the current plan) then all the zealots are going to realise that their expensive Jpegs are never going to make it into the game and stop buying.
Yep and they haven't learnt the lesson (or can't) because they are still peddling stuff they know is not getting into SC even if they could get to a release.
Post by: nightfire on October 24, 2017, 09:41:35 AM
As the schedule already pointed out, they have nothing to show for. The final Shitizen Con is about selling yet another - very pricy - concept ship and announcing the Intel SSD promotion. There is absolutely nothing of interest and attending it will be a drag. As the livestream will show. Let's hope the backers keep their wallets closed so this whole scam will finally come to an end.
Even over there (https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/comments/78e6wj/october_27_2017/), a few cultists plan on not wasting their lifetime watching the livestream. And I always thought that the "fun of following development" was one of the reasons cited for pledging…
Post by: dsmart on October 25, 2017, 04:50:39 AM
It's bullshit.
We get the inside scoop around the clock on my Discord channel. It's still shit all the way. And my sources were right. No way in hell 3.0 is ready inside of 6 months.
Right now, the only reason it goes above 20 fps is if you're ALONE and playing with yourself in an instance.
Heck, we even get info directly from ETF. Everything is broken. Completely. And the performance issues aren't going away. The server gets progressively worse over time, until it croaks and drops everyone.
Post by: StanTheMan on October 25, 2017, 06:41:21 AM
if you're ALONE and playing with yourself in an instance.
This is a feature is going to be popular amoungst certain male backers.
It has also inspired in game products that aid fidelity and were initially launched in the real world Japanese market.
You will be able to buy these special cups in the game's vending machines soon.
They may well be working on a Hello Kitty co branded version too.
Post by: dsmart on October 26, 2017, 05:06:13 AM
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x666ggn
Post by: FredBloggs on October 26, 2017, 06:33:53 PM
After $160m and 6yrs, this is the 3.0 Evocati build as of a few days ago. Have fun.
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x666ggn
It's already been REDACTED. Was this the octopus commando I've seen elsewhere?
Post by: Spunky Munkee on October 26, 2017, 10:09:43 PM
Post by: Motto on October 28, 2017, 01:43:20 PM
Post by: dsmart on October 29, 2017, 05:46:32 AM
After $160m and 6yrs, this is the 3.0 Evocati build as of a few days ago. Have fun.
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x666ggn
It's already been REDACTED. Was this the octopus commando I've seen elsewhere?
Yes, it was
You guys need alt accounts so you can repost this stuff as often as possible. Any chance the video file can be safely downloaded? Would that place this website in jeopardy if it was somehow loaded here?
Too much trouble tbh. It's not worth the hassle. 3.0 is coming out soon, then the hilarity will be on open display as always.
Post by: Spunky Munkee on October 29, 2017, 12:13:49 PM
My guess is it might be several months before 3.0 is released. Nobody knows just what level of bugginess Robbers will decide is correct.
In the meanwhile we would love to see 3.0 in the meanwhile. It works a lot better when I call it CRAP and can point to the video as evidence.
Post by: dsmart on October 29, 2017, 01:12:59 PM
I wonder how long it will be before they release this mess to the public, unless you have heard anything from the con?
My guess is it might be several months before 3.0 is released. Nobody knows just what level of bugginess Robbers will decide is correct.
In the meanwhile we would love to see 3.0 in the meanwhile. It works a lot better when I call it CRAP and can point to the video as evidence.
Nothing's changed on my end as far as sources go. As I previously wrote, they still maintain that it needs minimum 6 months in dev test before it's anywhere near read for live. CIG will have to release something before year end. And my guess is that they will try to fix all the crash bugs, then dump it on backers just before holidays, then piss off until the new years. Just like 2016.
Post by: BigM on October 30, 2017, 01:15:58 PM
If people could end up in jail then it sure seems they have one bad attorney!
At times, I think CRoberts is just playing with you, then actually release a game that is playable? Is there any way the insiders you talk to could play a game like this?
Okay never mind CRoberts isn't that smart to pull that off. :)
Post by: N0mad on October 30, 2017, 01:23:11 PM
My guess is that it's going to be bad news and 3.0 isn't going to be in the hands of the backers for many more months. Good thing all the whales can't get refunds anymore !!
Does anyone think it's likely that they've got some SQ42 to show off in December?
Post by: Motto on October 30, 2017, 01:51:04 PM
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DNWaXnFW0AESc4L.png)
Post by: dsmart on October 30, 2017, 01:51:23 PM
I can't wait to see this new production schedule for 3.0 which they're revealing in a few days.
My guess is that it's going to be bad news and 3.0 isn't going to be in the hands of the backers for many more months. Good thing all the whales can't get refunds anymore !!
Does anyone think it's likely that they've got some SQ42 to show off in December?
I remember when I wrote that my sources said that 3.0 was in no way shape or form ready to leave 3.0 QA for another 6 months.
Of course they wanted to build to hype so they released it prematurely a month before CC2017.
Then croberts goes on stage and talks about things Evocati find that the QA and devs can't find, when half the shit in the changelog are either 1) internal and not even something QA or Evocati would have known about, 2) bloody obvious to anyone with half a brain
Post by: dsmart on October 30, 2017, 01:52:38 PM
So much for the new FPS
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DNWaXnFW0AESc4L.png)
That's basically it. Though we have no way of knowing if that's Evocati 3.0 or not, that has not improved one iota since the last time I played it and reported that performance (networking and engine) were abysmal.
But they're totally going to come out with procgen cities though. :bahgawd:
Post by: Kyrt on October 30, 2017, 04:51:48 PM
Does anyone think it's likely that they've got some SQ42 to show off in December?
They probably do.
Enough to show some degree of progress.
However, if they were anywhere near release it likely would have been showcased by now
Post by: Aya Reiko on October 30, 2017, 05:53:42 PM
Does anyone think it's likely that they've got some SQ42 to show off in December?If anything, it'll be like CC17; a smoke-and-mirrors fest full of stitched together tech demos and no actual gameplay being shown.
Post by: David-2 on October 30, 2017, 06:00:48 PM
So much for the new FPS (https://twitter.com/D4RK_4NG3L/status/924815031572877312)
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DNWaXnFW0AESc4L.png)
It was explained to me on reddit that I'm an idiot because I didn't understand that your avatar clipping through your spaceship is totally the result of bad netcode requiring non-optimized round-trips to the server. (Also, because alpha, even after 5 years of the same bug.)
I'm sure that explains low FPS too.
So, we're just waiting for the netcode patch RSN and all will be well.
Post by: Spunky Munkee on October 30, 2017, 08:09:34 PM
My x85 just snuck behind your Bumblebee fighter and let loose a size 3 missile, Quick, roll the dice, BOOM You got wasted. ARRRGH!
WOW what fun!
But I punched out first and attached a mini limpet mine on your ship. Bonus roll! You are dead! HA!
See, perfect for the neck beard crew.
Post by: Meowz on October 30, 2017, 08:58:15 PM
As I have said before, with all that Art Work I'm sure a card game with a lore master a la Dungeons and Dragons is perfect for this crowd, Geeky Nostalgic, Boring.
My x85 just snuck behind your Bumblebee fighter and let loose a size 3 missile, Quick, roll the dice, BOOM You got wasted. ARRRGH!
WOW what fun!
But I punched out first and attached a mini limpet mine on your ship. Bonus roll! You are dead! HA!
See, perfect for the neck beard crew.
I assume you are not aware of their role playing ships forum? Its like what you described, but without the pictures... :3: :laugh:
Post by: ChrisIhao on October 30, 2017, 11:19:17 PM
The whole thing is just amazing and in long run this could be required reading in schools long after CRoberts and Sandi are counting days before they get out of jail. Then we have to wonder how bad this will end up hurting Kickstarter.
If people could end up in jail then it sure seems they have one bad attorney!
At times, I think CRoberts is just playing with you, then actually release a game that is playable? Is there any way the insiders you talk to could play a game like this?
Okay never mind CRoberts isn't that smart to pull that off. :)
Is anyone making a documentary about SC btw? From beginning to end. If not that would be a lost opportunity.
Post by: nightfire on October 31, 2017, 01:35:37 AM
Is anyone making a documentary about SC btw? From beginning to end. If not that would be a lost opportunity.
Derek will be writing a book about the whole fiasco.
Later, some big-name Hollywood producer will decide to make a crowdfunded movie based on this real story. His actress wife will be part of the lead cast...
Post by: Spunky Munkee on October 31, 2017, 03:15:56 AM
Post by: Bubba on October 31, 2017, 03:33:41 AM
Post by: nightfire on October 31, 2017, 09:30:02 AM
I'm gathering you folks don't pay attention to the carefully-curated IMDB entries. I for one, may be tickled when this bad boy (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt5561564/) hits the theaters. I wonder how much footage they've already shot?LOL! Who managed to sneak this one in?
Post by: Greggy_D on October 31, 2017, 10:19:09 AM
http://www.imdb.com/company/co0467761?ref_=tt_dt_co
Post by: dsmart on October 31, 2017, 03:18:31 PM
Who is Gemini 42 Entertainment? Another shell?
http://www.imdb.com/company/co0467761?ref_=tt_dt_co
Yeah
http://www.dereksmart.org/forums/reply/3698/
Post by: dsmart on November 03, 2017, 07:44:22 PM
https://robertsspaceindustries.com/schedule-report
Don't hesitate to say it: DEREK SMART WAS RIGHT! (http://www.dereksmart.com/forum/index.php?topic=9.msg3456#msg3456)
They have a new format. It basically CONFIRMS what I have been saying all along that they have NOT be forthcoming with the real amount of work that needs to be done. Also that 3.0 needed at least another 4-6 months (from when they released to Evocati in early Oct) before it's even ready for release.
Clearly 3.0 wasn't even ready to leave internal QA, let alone go to Evocati when it did a month ago.
It's almost as if they waited until AFTER CitizenCon to give the bad news.
Post by: Motto on November 04, 2017, 06:51:12 AM
Post by: dsmart on November 05, 2017, 05:07:26 AM
The Verse Pack (https://robertsspaceindustries.com/pledge/Packages/The-Verse-Pack) - $795 :bahgawd:
Post by: nightfire on November 05, 2017, 05:17:56 AM
The Verse Pack (https://robertsspaceindustries.com/pledge/Packages/The-Verse-Pack) - $795 :bahgawd:
$795 for a million new stories and exciting space adventures in my head? Hey, compared to the pricing and side effects of many psychoactive drugs, that almost sounds like a bargain!
Post by: dsmart on November 05, 2017, 05:32:54 AM
Post by: nightfire on November 05, 2017, 05:42:53 AM
LOL! Five years later! Gameplay Engineer, Service & Backend (https://cloudimperiumgames.com/jobs/619-Gameplay-Engineer-Service-Backend) :doh:
They actually have the nerve to list "one or more shipped products, especially PC products" along with the job requirements.
Post by: Motto on November 05, 2017, 06:37:50 AM
We have a new contender!!!
The Verse Pack (https://robertsspaceindustries.com/pledge/Packages/The-Verse-Pack) - $795 :bahgawd:
795,-? It shows $ 954,- for me :cop:
It obvious they have to do something since they can't put up a new expensive concept ship every month and Gamescom 2018 is still a long time out. It reeks of desperation. The only thing missing is a big flashing "Liquidation Sale" sign.
Post by: dsmart on November 05, 2017, 08:26:56 AM
Post by: nightfire on November 05, 2017, 08:30:05 AM
It's $795 USD. Maybe they do the conversion based on your detected location.
It said something like $8xx for me, "including taxes". So maybe they add VAT depending on location?
Post by: Kyrt on November 05, 2017, 08:38:13 AM
LOL! Five years later! Gameplay Engineer, Service & Backend (https://cloudimperiumgames.com/jobs/619-Gameplay-Engineer-Service-Backend) :doh:
They actually have the nerve to list "one or more shipped products, especially PC products" along with the job requirements.
That seems fairly straightforward and normsl.
What gets me is...
Follow best practices, development processes, and coding standards
Considering that CIG seems to be doing the best they can to avoid best practise...otherwise, they probably wouldn't be working on polishing game assets that shouldn't even be created till a Beta was ready while the engine was still WIP...I'm not really sure why they are asking for this.
Post by: Motto on November 06, 2017, 06:14:40 AM
This is even worse :vince:
Patrick working on damage states for Cutlass (https://twitter.com/SandiGardiner/status/926243045028360192)
Post by: StanTheMan on November 06, 2017, 07:50:05 PM
This is even worse :vince:
Patrick working on damage states for Cutlass (https://twitter.com/SandiGardiner/status/926243045028360192)
Patrick rhymes with spastic...
Post by: dsmart on November 07, 2017, 02:33:45 PM
Quote
Back again this week for another email Q&A session between my lucky Evocati friend and I. There's a lot of small back-and-forth questions I had for my friend so I lumped them together in the same topic as best I could.
Q: How's testing been?
A: I've been very busy outside of the testing environment, so testing has been sporadic for me. My job sent me out of state last week, so I missed a couple patches. We're waiting for patch O to arrive soon.
Q: How's shopping and missions going?
A: Missions aren't priority testing, so let's skip that. The shopping experience is still very much a WIP, but it's getting there. Dumper's Depot sells individual ship equipment on display like other shops, but you can't interact with the shop keepers yet. Same deal with Miles and Mr. Shadow. Buying & selling cargo is the same as previous weeks. Yes there are new weapons, suits, and armors to try and purchase. Ships can carry/haul cargo boxes 1/4th the size of a 1 SCU box like in previous builds. All cargo boxes are the same size and weight no matter the contents inside. No the cargo boxes do vary in looks and color depending on the contents. No you can't open the cargo boxes. No they are not throw-able. No you can't sit on them. No you can't kick them. (Are you messing with me?) Yes you can stack and place them anywhere you can reach. Yes cargo is persistent. Cargo boxes do spawn on the specified ship when buying them from trade kiosks. They do despawn when selling them. No you can't make profit from selling them yet. Yes the reworked Cutlass can carry two bikes and have enough room for cargo and 6 passengers. Yes cargo boxes can be carried around by your character, but lately the moons' surfaces are quicksand (collision bug) so it's not fun landing ships and vehicles on them.
Q: What improved feature do you like most in 3.0?
A: It's tough to choose just one. My top 3 are the improved party system, improved inventory, and the inner thought selection. Least? the limited fuel we're given, preventing us from reaching other planets in the Stanton System.
Q: Is it true the secret derelict ship is the Javelin? Where can you find it?
A: That is true. It can be found in one of Daymar's plateaus between OM4 and OM6 buoys. It's tough to triangulate because it's one of many unmarked derelict sites and it's surrounded by other land features. It's a lot bigger than I thought it would be. I've yet to see it from space. Levski can be seen from OM2. Its mining hole is a dead giveaway.
Q: What do you say to people who want to end the Evocati phase now and release 3.0 as is?
A: Those people either have short-term memories or they weren't there to experience 2.0 in all its crashing bug-ridden glory. 3.0, as is, still needs a lot of bug-fixing and improvements. Missions aren't working as intended for obvious reasons, and cargo still needs a lot of work. Moons' surfaces are still quicksand and CTDs happen at truly random times. Outpost markers still only appear when you're outside your ship, making it tedious to reach marked outposts. The mobiGlas' star map and inventory apps are still buggy and unresponsive at times. NPCs aren't interact-able yet. The x000x errors are very prevalent, preventing a percentage of ETF members from loading into the game. Insurance still doesn't work as intended, preventing previously-used ships to be locked. The only workaround for insurance-locked ships seems to be re-copying your account to PTU every patch which becomes tedious quickly. Point is, 3.0 is not ready to be tested by non-NDA testers. The wait for 3.0 is painful, but the aggravation and the mountain of salt it will add to the pile is not worth it for the average backer. Patience and persistence is very much a desired trait for testing builds like 3.0.
Q: I know you hate predictions but do you believe 3.0 PTU will come this year?
A: I stand by my previous answer. Don't expect it this month.
And that's it for this week. Enjoy and discuss. To my fellow U.S. citizens, go vote!
P.S. For those who may be angry about the surprise derelict being spoiled, it was your choice to click on this spoiler thread.
Post by: Motto on November 07, 2017, 02:44:55 PM
Post by: David-2 on November 07, 2017, 03:06:34 PM
Or then again, :ohdear:
Post by: dsmart on November 07, 2017, 05:59:16 PM
Cargo sounds like a lot of fun! No wonder people can't wait to get it in the PTU!
Or then again, :ohdear:
Oh I can't wait to see some dweeb grab a box, take a few steps, he falls through the ship, cargo falls through the level, ship explodes. :laugh:
Post by: dsmart on November 08, 2017, 05:48:20 AM
Post by: Spunky Munkee on November 08, 2017, 06:13:41 AM
Post by: Flashwit on November 08, 2017, 09:26:17 AM
Today's Evocati leak
...
This sounds a right mess. What are they doing over there in the asylum? It sounds like all they've implemented for cargo is generic boxes appearing and disappearing.
Post by: Ghostmaker on November 08, 2017, 10:37:45 AM
:wtchris:
And instead of ending with the guy getting thrown out the window (like in that meme), they IMPLEMENT that crap.
Post by: Motto on November 08, 2017, 03:29:45 PM
Star Citizen Evocati 3.0. Quick! Before they pull it.
Well, that didn't take long. Luckily, I have the offline copy to laugh at :D
Post by: dsmart on November 08, 2017, 04:02:59 PM
https://media.giphy.com/media/3ohs7VLthtxC2yQMsU/giphy.gif
Post by: the_wolfmann on November 09, 2017, 02:10:32 AM
Yeah, Goons also have a GIF of it
https://media.giphy.com/media/3ohs7VLthtxC2yQMsU/giphy.gif
Wasn't there a longer version of this on Daily Motion a week back? It had some strange title like "The New Chevy or whatnot Commercial". Got taken down as soon as CIG/RobberSI caught wind of it of course...
Can't get tired of watching the "fidelitah" in action though :laugh:
Post by: dsmart on November 09, 2017, 05:27:34 AM
Post by: dsmart on November 09, 2017, 08:30:32 AM
Post by: Greggy_D on November 09, 2017, 10:21:06 AM
Post by: dsmart on November 09, 2017, 10:25:15 AM
Derek, is there a CitizenCon 2017 roundup coming from you?
I just wrote about that actually. See my previous post.
Post by: dsmart on November 10, 2017, 08:12:48 AM
Quote
As a quick question to you and others here that DO KNOW this stuff. Does Amazon's Lumber Yard do well with networking? In other words, is it Lumberyard being choked by CIG's Frankenengine or is it an incompatibility with it?
Nobody knows, since there are currently NO RELEASED GAMES that use LumberYard. The engine, as a whole, is all very experimental - and still in Beta.
What I do know is that the CryEngine networking layer was always rubbish; and isn't something that they were actively interested in improving because most of the games the engine targeted, were simple 16-player games, with lobbies. Forget about fucking MMOs. The only decent CryEngine MMO (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_CryEngine_games) on record, Archeage, had to toss out and re-write the entire networking layer. And then they built the game from the ground up as an MMO. And it's instance/shard concept.
And in the latest LY build, AMZ even deprecated the entire CryEngine network layer in favor of their own. Which makes sense, since AWS is network-centric and they would have top tier network engineers there.
The LumberYard engine was never designed for MMO games. At all. Even AMZ states this clearly in their docs and faqs about what the engine is designed to do, and the limitations/strengths of the networking component.
Whoever wants to use LY for MMO games, without reading the fine print, or starting from scratch, is an incompetent moron
I suspect that in the switch from CE3.x to LY, they ended up using the LY implementation, which would require them to strip the now deprecated CE3.x networking layer they were using in their Frankenengine.
There was also indication that they were either using, or planning to use this experimental bullshit (in comparison to SDKs like RakNet or ReplicaNet) call yojimbo (https://github.com/networkprotocol/yojimbo) which they were Golden backers of. If they did end up using it, fucking :laffo: because it explains everything.
Star Citizen was never designed to be an MMO. They have missed that boat. They're never - ever - going to get there because it's too late now. And the premise of them even attempting it, would mean a code/maintenance freeze of maybe TWO FUCKING YEARS to re-jigger everything. When you consider that the last 2.6.3 patch was in April, and 3.0 is now almost a year late - and will be more than that eventually - it's easy to see how completely and totally FUCKED they are.
As I wrote here (http://dereksmart.com/forums/reply/5949/), an MMO architecture is not the sort of thing you just tack on at any time during development. The best they could have even got away with, was how Elite Dangerous - which isn't an MMO - did it. And that was a phenomenal fit of engineering, given how it works, the world size etc. AND it has a ton of caveats, regardless.
If they are now testing 60 client sessions, it's not because they magically came up with new networking tech (note that it's not listed anywhere in the dev schedule) at the spur of the moment. It's because they have realized that the AWS instances (these are the different tiers (https://aws.amazon.com/ec2/instance-types/)) they were usingvfor severs, are simply incapable of handling the additional shit that 3.0 is now throwing at it. Unfortunately for them, moving to higher tier AWS instances is not only going to cost them money, but it's also NOT going to solve the networking/connectivity problem. It's just going to solve the server's ability to just fuck off and die at some point. And it was doing just that - CONSISTENTLY - in the tests they just had.
To get a better understanding of what it takes to build an MMO using cloud tech - the dumbest thing to do since we elected a moron as POTUS - is to read these resources.
Using the cloud to build a MMORPG (https://www.slideshare.net/ACMBangalore/using-the-cloud-to-build-a-mmorpg) <-- This is theoretical and shows you what's possible, not that it's possible for a real-time game, with high fidelity visuals etc
Building a World in the Clouds: MMO Architecture on AWS (MBL304) | AWS (https://www.slideshare.net/AmazonWebServices/mbl304) <-- This is how Firefall did it. Multiplayer was pure shit. And the game died. As did the company.
Above is how Frontier did it. And they don't even try to do anything more than 32 clients within a "bubble/island"
They're completely and utterly fucked; and Star Citizen will never - ever - be an MMO. Backers should just pray that they are one day able to play with 32 of their friends in a session. Fucking :lol: if they all have multi-crew ships.
Post by: FredBloggs on November 10, 2017, 08:34:04 AM
They're completely and utterly fucked; and Star Citizen will never - ever - be an MMO. Backers should just pray that they are one day able to play with 32 of their friends in a session. Fucking :lol: if they all have multi-crew ships.
You don't understand Game development. Buy an Idris!
Post by: FredBloggs on November 10, 2017, 01:11:32 PM
Post by: dsmart on November 10, 2017, 03:16:32 PM
So... how long until Star Citizen has Loot-boxes implemented?
As soon as they run out of JPEG ships :laugh:
Post by: nightfire on November 10, 2017, 03:37:40 PM
So... how long until Star Citizen has Loot-boxes implemented?
Congratulations – you've just helped to delay 3.0 by a couple more months :cripes:
Post by: N0mad on November 10, 2017, 03:45:52 PM
So... how long until Star Citizen has Loot-boxes implemented?
First they'll have a loot box concept sale so you can pick up limited edition loot box Jpegs.
Post by: dsmart on November 10, 2017, 05:12:12 PM
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DOT3dDAW0AAjkYj.jpg)
Post by: dsmart on November 10, 2017, 05:34:45 PM
LOL!!! six fucking years later, and they keep moving the goal post
https://robertsspaceindustries.com/schedule-report
Quote
Finally, as you may have heard during the final presentation at CitizenCon, we are going to switch over to a quarterly release schedule for the PU in order to provide content drops on a more consistent basis. To that end, we will be modifying the Beyond 3.0 Overview section to a new PU Roadmap that will show you exactly where the various features and additions will fall in our quarterly release schedule. If a feature requires more work, then it will transition into the next release. This roadmap will be posted once 3.0.0 goes Live.
I am calling it right now, 3.0 is the MVP. They haven't released a patch since 2.6.3 in April 2017. Now, they're going to a quarterly release? Which means all the bugs and issues are going to be unfixed for a WHOLE QUARTER
:laffo:
#neverforget
(https://robertsspaceindustries.com/media/avlyc0kezpebnr/source/EndofYear_PUTimeline_11172017.png)
Post by: Ghostmaker on November 10, 2017, 07:11:28 PM
So... how long until Star Citizen has Loot-boxes implemented?*snorts* Maybe they could get Perfect World to help them with their coding?
(I admit it's nice to play D&D again with Neverwinter, but holy hell I hate those loot box drops with a burning passion)
Post by: David-2 on November 10, 2017, 08:13:10 PM
Quote
One question that came up often was the difference between a ‘task’ and a ‘bug.’ A task can be anything from crafting a feature to refining a game mechanic to improve the player experience.
So here it is for the benefit of the fanboys, what all of us software developers already knew: Their massive increase in tasks during the last few weeks of testing includes a large amount of new work that wasn't there before. They're still building 3.0 - a shockingly large amount of 3.0 - as they claim to be "polishing" it.
You know, in the kind of software development I've been doing for the last 40 years we have a state known as "code complete" in each product milestone (now, each sprint). After that the testing for that milestone/sprint starts (before that the testers are preparing their test plans and trying to write automated tests) and all that's supposed to go in until ship/deploy are bug fixes. If something is missing then that task/card/story/whatever was not code complete and you've got some explaining to do.
Post by: Motto on November 11, 2017, 04:09:59 AM
Post by: dsmart on November 11, 2017, 05:42:36 AM
Besides running out of money, CIG is now also running out of ways to tell the backers that there is no progress in developing the game and that it will not be released ever. As soon as they don't have any other way of suggesting some form of progress, they will push out 3.0 and file for bankruptcy. I wonder if there is a developer left who actually believes this game will make it. They're probably all just working for their paycheck and applying for a new job left right and center.
That's basically it.
Post by: dsmart on November 11, 2017, 08:32:00 AM
Quote
Dear CIG,
yes, it's me again.
I was very curious how you would manage this new Burndown and schedule report format in a way, that every Backer would be able to understand.
And as it turns out, you don't. You don't even provide a "guide" on how to read or interpret your numbers that you provide (That was done by @sqrw and thanks for that).
So what did you change for the better? Nothing. You don't even put the numbers into the context of last week. It's just a picture for 4-5 seconds and nobody mentions what's on it in the segment afterwards.
Not even in the "summary" there is a summary. Just a "we're making progress" no effing shit, you're "making progress" since last year.
And one thing that I really dislike is, if you actually record meetings, then give us the real deal, don't make a cut in the middle of a sentense. That is rude AND smells fishy. Was the dev to say something that would actually be a valid information of the status of 3.0?
Most of that that was shown were "features" or "minor improvements", except for the "lights out - when ships spawn - bug", so honestly, we are in an Alpha, so these things don't matter!
And since I honestly doubt CIG still knows what Alpha actually means (except for beeing a good excuse when something doesn't work) here's a link: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Software_release_life_cycle#Alpha (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Software_release_life_cycle#Alpha)
Is it really necessary to delay a release because the "shopping terminals look added on" or other minor nitpicks? Hell no! I know CR is a perfectionist, but, as mentioned above, we're in an alpha, not the actual release. So give us the janky stuff and patch the good stuff in later. You've got that "awesome new Delta Patcher" don't you? So make use of it.
And the best part is, Erik doesn't even talk about "full release" anymore. He just mentioned PTU Release of 3.0. I wonder why? Maybe because the overall count wen't up (in most segments by nearly 50%) and you're running out of time for this year.
You've got 2 major events coming up (The end of Kickstarter Event, and the Holiday "live" stream), which take time to coordinate and "develop" the stuff for it. And you've roughly got 4-5 weeks left.
Is that enough to smash 78 Bugs and manage 262 Tasks? Looking back at the previous burndown segments where you only focused on one part of the game and it took 3 weeks to smash 20 bugs... well... I doubt it.
Which leads me to the same thing I asked for last week: Honesty.
Will you be able to manage a 3.0 release this year? Yes or no? Or will you do the dodgy solution and just release it on PTU, if so, why wait? It was good enough for 2 major events this year and it is good enough for 1000 Evocati. So why isn't it good enough for the rest of us? Many of whom are here from the beginning.
Btw. I don't believe this whole "they test specifics" story, if so you wouldn't need 1000 players just for that. And if it were true, why don't you do an ATV segment and let us look behind the curtain? Record what the Evocati actually do and show it to us. Maybe... every week in ATV, in Burndown? Heck Burndown almost takes 20 minutes and doesn't provide that much actual information. Get rid of the meeting recordings, keep the devs talking about bugs but add the Evocati Recordings.
So overall, another week, another failure on the honesty front. Maybe next week?
Best regards
Post by: Motto on November 11, 2017, 10:58:42 AM
Post by: SpaceTroll on November 11, 2017, 11:08:00 AM
Today -----> 82 bugs
I'm buying the completionist pack
Post by: N0mad on November 11, 2017, 11:14:16 AM
Post by: SpaceTroll on November 11, 2017, 11:20:00 AM
You don't understand game development.
Post by: Star Chip on November 11, 2017, 02:11:17 PM
Let's be honest. The Whales bought (nearly) all the Pioneers so the pressure is off until the next scheduled ship sale, at which point they'll suddenly appear to make progress, like a release to PTU - again all heavily NDA'd. Not that I'm cynical or anything, but it's a proven business model for CIG now, I don't expect them to stop just because there's no viable game.The problem is can they implement the ship mechanics faster than they are selling new concept?
game changers status
---------------------------------
Redeemer forgotten
Reclamer forgotten
Endeavor forgotten
medical ???
acclerator ???
farming ???
science ???
custom ???
Reliant forgotten
Prospector forgotten
Genesis forgotten
Herald forgotten
Crucible forgotten
Phoenix LOL
Merchantman LOL
890Jump LOL
600i will see
Carrack LOL
Orion LOL
Prowler LOL
HullABCDE LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL
Pioneer $850
Idirs ???
Polaris ???
Javelin ???
Bangle !!!!!!!!!!
Pegasus ???
SpaceDoor BUILD
Derek are you going to update your chart of engineering debt? Does it look better or worse?
Post by: N0mad on November 11, 2017, 02:53:42 PM
How much of what they sell has actually been created within the game - even if it isn't accessible to backers yet?
How long does it take before they create it ie. Sale -> Creation time?
Has anyone looked at this in detail yet?
Post by: Meowz on November 11, 2017, 02:59:57 PM
CIG can't even release their "basic" moon tech and these fools are over there theory crafting about how they will be able to fly into gas giants that look like the linked picture and how they will have to deal with radiation, turbulence, gravity and such to harvest resources. Meanwhile in reality land CIG can't produce the most basic of floating rock mining systems. I can't comprend the disconnect these people have from reality given the current evidence available.
:vince:
Post by: David-2 on November 11, 2017, 03:27:50 PM
CIG can't even release their "basic" moon tech and these fools are over there theory crafting about how they will be able to fly into gas giants that look like the linked picture and how they will have to deal with radiation, turbulence, gravity and such to harvest resources. Meanwhile in reality land CIG can't produce the most basic of floating rock mining systems. I can't comprend the disconnect these people have from reality given the current evidence available.
This'll show up as 2-3 tasks on next week's schedule ...
Post by: dsmart on November 12, 2017, 06:53:32 AM
:laffo:
Post by: dsmart on November 12, 2017, 07:14:23 AM
https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x68u1zy
Post by: Spunky Munkee on November 12, 2017, 01:51:22 PM
Post by: Motto on November 12, 2017, 02:18:23 PM
It was really that slow of a frame rate? It looks really craptastic. I bet lots of citizens won't care. They will proclaim OOH AAH Fidelity!
Now why would they name their right hand Fidelity?
Post by: nightfire on November 12, 2017, 02:34:28 PM
It was really that slow of a frame rate? It looks really craptastic. I bet lots of citizens won't care. They will proclaim OOH AAH Fidelity!
Not at all surprising, some have already dutifully pointed out that SC is still in alpha and that anyone whining about low fps in an alpha build doesn't understand game development and shouldn't be here among the big boys.
Post by: Spunky Munkee on November 12, 2017, 03:09:16 PM
Last year I bought Titanfall 2 and COD IW I enjoyed them both, got some replay value and they were much better than anything Star Citizen has produced to date.
Post by: StanTheMan on November 12, 2017, 06:19:14 PM
So... how long until Star Citizen has Loot-boxes implemented?
First they'll have a loot box concept sale so you can pick up limited edition loot box Jpegs.
and then after that there may be a version using face recognition tech and the popular English private school game of "Soggy Biscuit" (I didn't go to a private school myself)
Soggy biscuit involves getting a group of boys in a room and a biscuit (cookie).
All the boys have to beat themselves off and cum onto the biscuit which has been placed on a table, the middle of the circle, on a table etc (within penis reach)
The last boy to cum on the biscuit has to eat it.
It doesnt take much imagination to see how this game could be adapted for Star Citizen with loot boxes as a reward for those able to beat themselves off first in response to a JPEG stimulus. The face recognition tech would be used to verify the winners and losers or otherwise enhance the experience. There would need to be some forfeit for the loser - perhaps playing a couple of rounds of Star Marine.
PTW (Play To Wank) indeed.
Post by: Kyrt on November 12, 2017, 07:19:02 PM
Not at all surprising, some have already dutifully pointed out that SC is still in alpha and that anyone whining about low fps in an alpha build doesn't understand game development and shouldn't be here among the big boys.
To a great degree, they are correct. Frame rate issues in a pre Alpha state aren't that big a concern. Late Beta would be a better time to worry.
Now...of more interest is why CIG are going through all of this whole the engine is incomplete. By focussing so much on polish and ships at yhis stage, they are only guaranteeing extra work for themselves when Beta foes come along.
You don't polish the game at this stage of development...there is still too much that requires adding and changing and anything added now runs a very real risk of needing rework or being thrown put during the Beta phase.
That means even more delays, even more costs.
Anyone who doesn't wonder why they are doing stress tests in a preAlpha build, especially when the netcide and server backends aren't complete, doesn't understand gsme development
Post by: Bubba on November 12, 2017, 10:07:54 PM
Post by: Kyrt on November 13, 2017, 01:12:59 AM
Of course, frame rates aren't a huge issue in early alpha. Far more significant is that, five years and tens of millions after a "working prototype" was unveiled to the public, it's a matter of debate whether what they have is a pre-alpha or early alpha. You know, we shoulda made it to Moscow by now.
Since they are...by their own admission....still working on their engine and don't have all functionality complete, the game is still in a pre-Alpha state. They are working TO an Alpha build...not working ON an Alpha build.
While I know they are a bit trapped by their own promises, one of the reasons why this game is taking so long is the attention they are giving to keeping it in a playworthy state. With the engine and game still incomplete and being worked on, the probability is that major sections of what has already been done will need to be redone.
From what I recall from my own experiences in development and programming, CIG should be building the game once the netcode and server meshing systems are in place. That way, they know the restrictions each of those modules will impose. Sure...maybe they'll get lucky. Maybe their netcode team will be able to arrange the systems so that they can transfer all the reqiired data in the planned x bytes and get it working do they can repeat that send 60 times a second....
But reality has a way of biting. Until the netcode is in place, the possibility exists that the team cannot meet your planned usage. And of course, you can't create the netcode until you know what information it will send (ship position in three axis, ship heading in three axis, speed, what actions it is doing and more) as well as how how you want to send it (at least 30 times a second if the entities are close) and who you want to send it to (how many players per instance), all of which also requires a certain idea of the basic specs you require for the game, such as minimum.bandwidth requitements for both the player and server. And of course, there are additional extras...do you want to encrypt or compress the data stream, for example - both of which offer certain advantages but also require CPU cycles and add to delay.
CIG should have an idea what their netcode can do....but to put such code into the game so late, and to have built so much around its absence?
And that isn't the only issue. Admittedly, I know a bit less about server systems, but from what I do know, server meshing strikes me as yet another technology that is critical to implement the game they want, but is also another critical feature they haven't added, a critical feature they haven't even started around designing how to implememt but which would be so much better being built into the game from the ground up instead of tacked on as an afterthought....an action which again seems to promise a need to rework huge sections of code to get meshing to work.
More delays and bugs.
And all that is on top of their current systems and way of working. Maybe I'm totally wrong here, maybe there is a method behind their madness - but much of what I see and hear regarding this development shows a certain degree of haphazardness. By that, I'm saying that it looks like at least some of the game appears to be being developed in a make it up as you go kind of approach....which is an approach that I would expect to be slower more expensive and more prone to bugs and performance issues than a more methodical approach.
So...for me, there is no question. Its a preAlpha state and unless CIG get really lucky, a lot of that work they have done and are doing on polishing the game and putting it into a playable state will have to be thrown out. That they are already reworking assets suggests that at least some of my assumptions along these lines are correct.
Seriously...in some ways I am impressed with how quickly CIG are moving. Because of Chris Roberts incompetence or inexperience or whatever, the first 3...maybe even 4 years...of development effectively did not occur. And because of his decisions, because CIG are prioritising the market over game development, because CIG are putting so much effort into making a PreAlpha polished and playable...the game will take a lot longer to develop and cost a lot more mo ey than it should.
About the only good news in all of this is that IF the engine is now in the state they say it is, now in a state where the backend stuff is the only systems left to replace, then the engine is probably at a point where they can restart development on S42.
Its just a pity they seem to think the flight model requires tweaking rather than a massive rethink. While there are people who are trying to make up excuses for it and how "real" it is, the state of the flight model seems to be the one thing both "sides" agree on....it's too arcadey, it isn't fun and it doesn't give enough feel or variance netween models. What they have is serviceable....but for what will be one of the biggest timesinks in game (flight) serviceable (IMO) isn't good enough. It needs to be great and, mote importantly, it needs to be fun.
Say what you will about EDs content (or lack thereof) but their flight model feels great even if it isn't realistic; reality has to bend before gameplay. And thst is abother lesson CIG don't seem to know
Post by: dsmart on November 13, 2017, 06:08:51 AM
No game loop, no actual missions. Just moving rubber dog shit from A to B.
I like how they confirmed my post about the QD lag/delay :laugh:
SCLeaks Note: Patch 3.0.0p -
Mission Focus test, so folks today Evocati got a new patch and they're focusing on the missions similar to what we saw in GamesCon@2016.
Avocados need to go to a specific location, grab a special package and deliver it to some other place. The system still need some love, sometimes the target box doesn't spawn for example.
Server pop. is still 60, and "large freight" is in since the beginning (of evocati), and that means you don't need to grab a mission if you want to haul stuff.
That's it for today, good night o7
Issue Debugging Request
If you are on Nvidia's latest drivers and getting the following GPU crash "GPU Timeout in CREATE_DEFERRED_BUFFERS ()" could you try running the game NOT in fullscreen (try full screen windowed and regular windowed) and see if the crash persists
Major Known Issues:
All shops are missing items
Quantum travel can take 30 to 90 seconds to engage
There are many missing textures
Interaction promps will flicker in and out after ejecting out of a ship and respawning at GrimHex
Quantum linked slaves will end up inside of destinations far from masters
LODs are broken and popping in and out at incorrect view ranges
Focus Feature Updates
Universe
Hint System: Added try on/inspect enter and exit hint events, as well as spawn point enter/exit hint events
Levski: Added additional LODs that should be viewable from orbit
Improved audio for size 4 Behring laser cannon
Adjusted close range lock-out for quantum destinations deemed too close
Ships and Vehicles
Rebalance of quantum travel fuel usage on all quantum drives
Prospector: Updated damage VFX
Retaliator: Updated ladder metrics for better grasping and updated door animations
Bug Fixes
Abandoned outposts should no longer have internal atmosphere
Toned down the thruster reflection on the Dragonfly MFD
Prone should now properly toggle
Fixed certain ships that were using their quantum fuel for boost/afterburner
Adjusted overly loud ambiance at Grimhex landing pad
Airlock sounds should no longer be too loud when heard from 3rd person
There should no longer be a floating box in the back room of Cafe Musain
The doors at Port Olisar's Dumper's Depot should no longer clip into the walls when opening
The "Spooling" message should no longer persist during the quantum travel sequence
A pilot seat should no longer be left on the pad after spawning a ship
Updated surface meshes to repair areas of the Prospector that were not taking damage
Players should now have proper animation when entering pilot seat and lower turret of the Caterpillar
Fixed various visual issues in and around Conscientious Objects at Levsk
Motion blur fix for Port Olisar rings
Terrain assets on Cellin and Daymar should no longer render noticeably close to the player
Players should now be able to interact with the side door on the Freelancer
Fixed floating assets inside Garrity Defense
CryAstro stations should now recognize the Starfarer's automated landing system
Fixed sign placement issue in Port Olisar weapon shop
Removed replaceme balls above hangars at Levski
Players should no longer be able to force their way through the collision of the front window in the Freelancer
Ships should no longer sink into the ground after the player lands on the planet surface and exits
Technical
Various crash fixes
Non-Focus Feature Updates
Missions
Changed lighting states at comm arrays
Further updated mission rewards and timer variables
Picking up the black box should no longer break the character or get stuck to the hand
Updated various AI spawning parameters for bounty, assassination, and recovery missions
UI
Added overheat bar to the heat MFD
Shopping and Cargo
Reduced the volume of shopkeeper's dialogue
Further polish to nesting and accordian grid hierarchy on the commodities kiosk
Ships
Avenger series: Moved location of ejection button so the interaction is less likely to be triggered accidentally
Bug Fixes
Fixed the Deploy Data Beacon mission marker, which should no longer spawn far above the probe at Levski
Fixed some missing VFX from the Avenger Warlock and Titan on incoming damage or destruction
Fixed some LOD issues found within the Selfland hangar
The P4AR should no longer be missing various LODs
Starfarer interior should now have atmosphere
The "friendly fire" warning audio should now properly play in Squadron Battle
Item wear on MFD should now update properly
Shields so no longer recover regen while off
Player should now properly attach to the seats in the ARGO
Fixed misaligned logos on Revel and York elevator doors
Firing the P8-SC in burst fire mode should no longer create a looping mechanic sound
The top turret in the Starfarer should now be usable
Fixed unusual cockpit lighting in the 85X
Fixed pirate swarm M50s having replaceme textures
Post by: dsmart on November 13, 2017, 08:08:49 AM
https://www.servethehome.com/amazon-aws-ec2-c5-instances-custom-intel-xeon-scalable-cpus/
Post by: Greggy_D on November 13, 2017, 09:42:17 AM
Post by: nightfire on November 13, 2017, 10:50:08 AM
I have no words, but this is the latest patch notes
No game loop, no actual missions. Just moving rubber dog shit from A to B.
I've noticed it more than once on Reddit: this affinity for cargo hauling and repetitive grinding missions among the backer base.
I wonder how many backers work as pizza delivery guys, Fedex drivers, furniture moving people and similar "move A to B" type professions in their day jobs. Like those farmers who play Farming Simulator in the evening (I read once that there are quite a few of them). Other than that, I can't really figure out why people are so excited about a seemingly boring game mechanic (at least to me, it is) in SC.
Even if it's only about the UEC earned in-game: if you could earn more "real-money-equivalent" in the game than you can in real-life, then this market inefficiency would quickly be discovered and levelled out by loads of backers flocking into the business and undercutting cargo rates in SC. Just theory-crafting here of course, since SC will never get this far.
Post by: nightfire on November 13, 2017, 11:00:54 AM
Since they are...by their own admission....still working on their engine and don't have all functionality complete, the game is still in a pre-Alpha state. They are working TO an Alpha build...not working ON an Alpha build.
Actually, Star Citizen is about to go into "Early Access" according to Chairman Robbers. I guess he took the saying "it's not a bug, it's a feature" so seriously that he really believes SC is feature complete by now.
Post by: N0mad on November 13, 2017, 12:06:28 PM
The only way CR can continue making money is with more ship sales - so he can't ever "release" the game otherwise the ship sales would effectively stop. It has to be in perpetual "nearly there" development to keep the whales spending.
For those of you who might think that even with a "full release", they can still continue ship sales, think about that - it would be like EA releasing Battlefront 2 for $80 but saying that it'll be another $400 to unlock Vader - forget micro-transactions, Star Citizen would have MACRO-transactions. I can't see that working out well.
Post by: nightfire on November 13, 2017, 12:38:16 PM
The only way CR can continue making money is with more ship sales - so he can't ever "release" the game otherwise the ship sales would effectively stop. It has to be in perpetual "nearly there" development to keep the whales spending.
Yes, that's basically what he implies…
http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2017-08-29-star-citizen-would-be-the-worst-scam-in-the-world
According to him in the interview, "releases" are so traditional and old-fashioned. For a game to be good, it must never be finished. How convenient that SC will become the very epitome of "never finished".
Post by: David-2 on November 13, 2017, 02:02:25 PM
Quote
Improved audio for size 4 Behring laser cannon
BTW, Derek, I'm a C++ guy, so can you tell me if this is what the Java guys refer to as "garbage collection":
Quote
A pilot seat should no longer be left on the pad after spawning a ship
Post by: nightfire on November 13, 2017, 03:13:45 PM
BTW, Derek, I'm a C++ guy, so can you tell me if this is what the Java guys refer to as "garbage collection":QuoteA pilot seat should no longer be left on the pad after spawning a ship
Yes, that bug became apparent during the recent 60 players per server stress test. An Evocati leaked a screenshot of it:
(http://ilpiccolo.gelocal.it/polopoly_fs/1.8644823.1401971365!/httpImage/image._gen/derivatives/landscape_250/image.)
Post by: dsmart on November 13, 2017, 05:28:49 PM
I don't mean to downplay the importance of getting cargo missions working but thank goodness they expanded the schedule to include this task and finish it - nothing's stopping PTU release now!QuoteImproved audio for size 4 Behring laser cannon
BTW, Derek, I'm a C++ guy, so can you tell me if this is what the Java guys refer to as "garbage collection":QuoteA pilot seat should no longer be left on the pad after spawning a ship
LOL!! No, that's not garbage collection in coding terms; but the analogy still works :laugh:
Post by: dsmart on November 13, 2017, 05:29:17 PM
BTW, Derek, I'm a C++ guy, so can you tell me if this is what the Java guys refer to as "garbage collection":QuoteA pilot seat should no longer be left on the pad after spawning a ship
Yes, that bug became apparent during the recent 60 players per server stress test. An Evocati leaked a screenshot of it:
(http://ilpiccolo.gelocal.it/polopoly_fs/1.8644823.1401971365!/httpImage/image._gen/derivatives/landscape_250/image.)
:vince: :lol: :lol: :lol:
Post by: JoeBloggs on November 13, 2017, 11:16:29 PM
If they don't know how to do proper garbage collection in C++, they should re-label their job titles.
Instead of 'Senior Developer' rename that to 'Junior Developer' who can't debug code for memory allocation errors (malloc, new) nor use a custom memory manager (https://github.com/emeryberger/Hoard ), Boost Library Pool, Posix Memory Manager.
My hunch is they probably added dozens of
They should junk CryEngine. The engine has outgrown the usefulness. They would need to get custom game-engine that can do massive LOD (Load on Demand, not Line of Defense), have correct memory management and stack-walkers, Vulcan or DX12 or the Sony-variant of OpenGL (PSGL) to work with the graphics.
It's too late. To ask to develop an engine now... would cost extra in millions. Get another jpeg ship sale and lootbox GIFs to rake in millions more. LOL
Post by: N0mad on November 14, 2017, 12:51:55 AM
They should junk CryEngine. The engine has outgrown the usefulness. They would need to get custom game-engine that can do massive LOD (Load on Demand, not Line of Defense), have correct memory management and stack-walkers, Vulcan or DX12 or the Sony-variant of OpenGL (PSGL) to work with the graphics.It is too late to develop a custom engine. Star Citizen only makes money by repeatedly promising to be nearly finished so they can keep up the hype for ship sales. If they change engine then the whales might realise that it's going to be years before they see any more progress and get cold feet. Remember how they lied about how easy it was to change to Lumberyard.
It's too late. To ask to develop an engine now... would cost extra in millions. Get another jpeg ship sale and lootbox GIFs to rake in millions more. LOL
Star Citizen is an art project at the end of the day, not a tech project. They make it look pretty and make unrealistic promises, then spend years failing to solve the technical problems.
Post by: JoeBloggs on November 14, 2017, 02:21:43 AM
... is an art project at the end of the day
CRoberts must be horrible
Star Citizen the cartoon, film or soft-toys would have been much easier to make.
Post by: the_wolfmann on November 15, 2017, 01:54:59 AM
Edit: I like how Sandi comes 'round by the end to clear out the last dissenting troll standing against the project.
Post by: dsmart on November 15, 2017, 05:37:23 AM
Quote
Specs
Game configuration was 2560x1440P - Very High - V-Sync Off.
Hardware'
GPU: GTX 1070 overclocked by about 10%
CPU: Intel i5 4690K overclocked to 4.6Ghz
16GB of DDR3 System Ram running at 2.4Ghz
Still runs like shit. Notice how there's absolutely NO combat engagement etc
Also had another testing round yesterday:
Quote
Server Performance Testing
GREETINGS AVOCADOS!
Tonight (2017-11-14) we will be doing some complex playtest data collection and we need your assistance!
Before we begin:
Please ensure that you are running r_displayinfo 3 at all times.
Please pay very close attention to chat and follow all instructions from CIG Staff.
Test Instructions:
When we are ready for you to begin testing we will ask you to join in on the PTU Servers.
This test is going to consist of multiple phases and we need your FPS Data from each phase:
Spawn at Port Olisar and go outside to Pad A00
After data collection, a CIG Employee will advance the phase via chat, return inside to ASOP and spawn SMALL SHIPS
Take your small ship and position yourself somewhere safely above Port Olisar.
After data collection, a CIG Employee will advance the phase via chat, then pick a moon/station of your choosing and spread out away from other players.
After data collection, a CIG Employee will advance the phase via chat, ditch your ships in orbit/on surfaces and get back to Port Olisar.
Spawn LARGE SHIPS and hover over Port Olisar.
After data collection, a CIG Employee will advance the phase via chat, pick a moon/station of your choosing and spread out away from other players.
Once we have collected this final set of data we will shut down the servers and migrate to a new set to perform additional tests as needed.
While waiting for new servers, please use the following Response Template to reply to this thread with all the information we need to collect added in:
CIG Staff will be present in most servers forwarding / updating chat with further testing instructions.
NOTHING has improved about the frame rate or the networking. Nothing. Like, at all.
Meanwhile, they're still issuing threats against backers who don't follow test instructions. Except, those instructions aren't via email. You have to be on Spectrum to know about it. So if you foolishly start the game, get lumped into a test server, then spawn a ship. You've apparently broken the rules.
Quote
It started out as a bunch of commandos hanging around on the landing pads. Stress test level amount of commandos, like 30+ or something.
He ran inside and ordered his ride from the console, then was directed to a pad, with a pip on the screen for his ship. When he got there, it wasn't the ship type he had requested. It was literally the wrong ship. He turned to look around the pad at a Connie falling over the side, clipping, or whatever. When he turned back around, his ship had become an entirely different ship. It was like a magic trick. He literally turned around and an entirely different ship was there. He told discord about the weirdness, then someone ran past him and said that new ship was theirs.
He then ran back to the requisition computer, and found his ship was on another pad. He then went over there, found an adjacent ship, gave a shot at trying to enter the bay, and said he's probably going to hit an invisible wall. He then totally ran against an invisible wall in the cargo bay. He then ran over to his ship, tried to enter his ship through the bay, the internal door refused to open or have any interaction whatsoever. He finally accessed the side hatch at the end of the video.
The whole time, whenever people were spawning ships, the FPS totally ate it.
(https://i.imgur.com/2axgMBx.png)
(https://i.imgur.com/ryZhxD4.png)
UPDATE1: Yup, video is gone.
UPDATE2: Someone downloaded and mirrored it http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x69d2ql
Post by: Spunky Munkee on November 15, 2017, 06:07:37 AM
Be glad you got your refund or try and get yours really fast cuz the clock is ticking...
Post by: N0mad on November 15, 2017, 06:16:13 AM
Quote
We need fps counter numbers in screenshots :DPoor fools, I suspect the admins probably won't allow the link anyway.
Post by: N0mad on November 15, 2017, 06:19:44 AM
That was awful. Frame rates as low as 13fps, ships spawning to be replaced by someone else's ships in front of your eyes.13fps was good - wait till you get to the end of the clip :laugh:
Post by: StanTheMan on November 15, 2017, 07:07:48 AM
They think "I will get starter package to mess around and have a laugh in this buggy game"
Then they get sucked in to JPEG buying cycle.
Post by: Flashwit on November 15, 2017, 10:05:23 AM
NOTHING has improved about the frame rate or the networking. Nothing. Like, at all.
Meanwhile, they're still issuing threats.
(https://i.imgur.com/2axgMBx.png)
(https://i.imgur.com/ryZhxD4.png)
While funny, I'm with them on this one. If you can't listen to instructions, gtfo.
Post by: dsmart on November 15, 2017, 10:49:03 AM
Post by: Beexoffel on November 15, 2017, 11:21:24 AM
Post by: N0mad on November 15, 2017, 11:45:03 AM
Meanwhile, in Infinity Battlescape, ...
Oh look, massive stations, multiple players in a server, planets to land on and no lag.
If CIG don't release something *good* in the next 6 months (they can't) then all these games (Elite Dangerous / Dual Universe / Infinity Battlescape) are going to start putting Star Citizen to shame with their gameplay and graphics making Star Citizen even more of a joke than it already is.
Post by: dsmart on November 15, 2017, 02:44:17 PM
Quote
It started out as a bunch of commandos hanging around on the landing pads. Stress test level amount of commandos, like 30+ or something.
He ran inside and ordered his ride from the console, then was directed to a pad, with a pip on the screen for his ship. When he got there, it wasn't the ship type he had requested. It was literally the wrong ship. He turned to look around the pad at a Connie falling over the side, clipping, or whatever. When he turned back around, his ship had become an entirely different ship. It was like a magic trick. He literally turned around and an entirely different ship was there. He told discord about the weirdness, then someone ran past him and said that new ship was theirs.
He then ran back to the requisition computer, and found his ship was on another pad. He then went over there, found an adjacent ship, gave a shot at trying to enter the bay, and said he's probably going to hit an invisible wall. He then totally ran against an invisible wall in the cargo bay. He then ran over to his ship, tried to enter his ship through the bay, the internal door refused to open or have any interaction whatsoever. He finally accessed the side hatch at the end of the video.
The whole time, whenever people were spawning ships, the FPS totally ate it.
Post by: nightfire on November 15, 2017, 03:05:12 PM
For those of you who missed the Evocati video above, before it was pulled.
This sounds so funny, it could be the blueprint for an entire arcade multiplayer game in itself, where you have to beat other players on an obstacle course to board a ship, while also having to solve intermittent puzzles popping up.
Post by: Bubba on November 15, 2017, 03:10:12 PM
In short: you don't reward people with testing slots. At best, you give them social capital in your game community in exchange for their help. And you want the fact of having a test slot carry as little social capital as you can, because no sane developer wants to encourage a community social hierarchy based on out-of-game values. Because then you have a toxic community that works against your interests of promoting the game.
But yeah, you will get people wandering into your test environment. Not a problem.
Many years ago I was doing MP testing in a scripted environment (FPS - Operation Flashpoint) where we had to build a network stack using self-modifying code (totally reprehensible coding practices, but it was a good way to put off finishing my PhD). Anyway, we had some module testing, and lo', my boss musta been at the pub, 'cos he's ignoring orders and shooting other testers.
Well, that's why we wrote a console. Remove all his weapons, move him to a spot in the wilderness 5k from the nearest moveable object, and disable his map.
5 min later, he's ready to play nice.
Boredom is a powerful tool, unless it's what you're selling.
Post by: Motto on November 15, 2017, 03:20:45 PM
But it's your job. No paycheck if you don't do it. What a life...
Post by: dsmart on November 15, 2017, 03:41:54 PM
For those of you who missed the Evocati video above, before it was pulled.QuoteIt started out as a bunch of commandos hanging around on the landing pads. Stress test level amount of commandos, like 30+ or something.
He ran inside and ordered his ride from the console, then was directed to a pad, with a pip on the screen for his ship. When he got there, it wasn't the ship type he had requested. It was literally the wrong ship. He turned to look around the pad at a Connie falling over the side, clipping, or whatever. When he turned back around, his ship had become an entirely different ship. It was like a magic trick. He literally turned around and an entirely different ship was there. He told discord about the weirdness, then someone ran past him and said that new ship was theirs.
He then ran back to the requisition computer, and found his ship was on another pad. He then went over there, found an adjacent ship, gave a shot at trying to enter the bay, and said he's probably going to hit an invisible wall. He then totally ran against an invisible wall in the cargo bay. He then ran over to his ship, tried to enter his ship through the bay, the internal door refused to open or have any interaction whatsoever. He finally accessed the side hatch at the end of the video.
The whole time, whenever people were spawning ships, the FPS totally ate it.
OK someone who downloaded the video, has re-hosted it
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x69d2ql
Post by: N0mad on November 15, 2017, 04:15:38 PM
Has anyone from Evocati leaked anything on a planet yet? Can't wait to see those stress tests !
Post by: David-2 on November 15, 2017, 04:39:15 PM
OK, here's another question: Why do the animations of players walking about appear to slide about on the surface, out of sync with distance actually travelled? I mean, I know why - they're borked up - but first, why is that happening now after years of these animations, and second, why doesn't anyone comment on that as a problem?
That's all for now.
Post by: N0mad on November 16, 2017, 02:39:37 AM
I have a lot of questions about that video; here's one: There's a heartbeat/health monitor in the lower left of the frame - it bobs up and down when the player moves. That's the "head bob" I guess. But it's supposed to be a HUD on the inside of his helmet. Leave aside the amount of the bobble, but why is it bobbing at all? Is that the way real helmets attached to suits work - your own head bobs up and down inside it? I don't really wear helmets but I don't remember my full motorcycle helmet behaving that way.
That's just an artistic feature, that's not the problem with this test.
OK, here's another question: Why do the animations of players walking about appear to slide about on the surface, out of sync with distance actually travelled? I mean, I know why - they're borked up - but first, why is that happening now after years of these animations, and second, why doesn't anyone comment on that as a problem?
Again, not the major problem with the test. Please give us the time frames and someone with better networking knowledge than me would be able to comment.
It could be related to the fact that they now have a sliding scale of motion using the mousewheel, rather than 2 speeds, walk and run. If the updated position is transmitted separately (or at differing intervals) to the current animation speed value then they may get out of sync. Alternatively, it may be a side effect from having the whole station moving and orbiting the planet (assuming this is actually implemented), where updating the physics grid at the same time as moving leads to floating point multiplication errors. Just a theory.
Post by: Aya Reiko on November 16, 2017, 10:39:51 AM
It's already down.For those of you who missed the Evocati video above, before it was pulled.QuoteIt started out as a bunch of commandos hanging around on the landing pads. Stress test level amount of commandos, like 30+ or something.
He ran inside and ordered his ride from the console, then was directed to a pad, with a pip on the screen for his ship. When he got there, it wasn't the ship type he had requested. It was literally the wrong ship. He turned to look around the pad at a Connie falling over the side, clipping, or whatever. When he turned back around, his ship had become an entirely different ship. It was like a magic trick. He literally turned around and an entirely different ship was there. He told discord about the weirdness, then someone ran past him and said that new ship was theirs.
He then ran back to the requisition computer, and found his ship was on another pad. He then went over there, found an adjacent ship, gave a shot at trying to enter the bay, and said he's probably going to hit an invisible wall. He then totally ran against an invisible wall in the cargo bay. He then ran over to his ship, tried to enter his ship through the bay, the internal door refused to open or have any interaction whatsoever. He finally accessed the side hatch at the end of the video.
The whole time, whenever people were spawning ships, the FPS totally ate it.
OK someone who downloaded the video, has re-hosted it
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x69d2ql
Post by: N0mad on November 16, 2017, 12:27:09 PM
It's already down.
But the damage is done :laugh:
Post by: dsmart on November 16, 2017, 03:30:53 PM
FF to @1:57
INTERESTING TRANSCRIPT EXCERPT
Star Citizen: Around the Verse
Nov 16, 2017
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NxBdyyGx7vM#t=61s (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NxBdyyGx7vM#t=61s)
Todd Papy Game Design
"...and making sure that we can refine that to as small of a list and as concise of a list as what we would consider a MINIMUM VIABLE PRODUCT, to put that out to PTU and to live"
Jake Ross Producer, Texas, since 2014
"...we're gonna review that process, hopefully get a minimal amount of feedback so we can get super close to calling this thing FEATURE COMPLETE"
Robert Gaither ex QA 1 year, Associate Tech Designer 1 year, Texas
"...also we've got all sorts of art that had rotations all over the place, we had to go back and make sure that everything was placed properly on the shelves and that we're having all the FINAL STUFF in the game, all the FINAL ASSETS in the build"
Robert Reininger Senior Tech Designer, 1y 4mo, Texas
"...definitely been challenges going through this, SHOPKEEPERS has been... you know... that's generally our first usage of the SUBSUMPTION engine in general, so getting to know that has been a challenge, the shopkeepers... although... what you're going to see is fairly simple compared to the overall AI you're gonna see, ah... in the LONG RUN is... still just a good learning experience just for us... ahm... getting... getting... some of the other bugs worked out of the system, you know, INTERACTIONS with objects, getting the camera to sit right on the thing you're trying to focus on and trying on... things like that, it's kinda dialing in the knobs so to speak... it's taken its toll and taken its time"
Ashram Kain Technologist, Producer, 1y 4mo, LA
"Interestingly this week we've had to deal with a number of bugs related to how we do occlusion in the cargo grids, for instance if you were to store a ship in your cargo bay, how do we fill up boxes around that ship so we don't block you so you can't keep the ship there BUT still give you the option of storing cargo inside your ship? It's been very interesting stuff"
Janine Irmler Production assistant, Frankfurt 1y 7mo (previously HR for various companies)
"So what has happened recently is that we transitioned from doing SPRINTS to doing WEEKLY REVIEWS to close out the work for missions for 3.0. We already have a lot of missions available in Evocati (note- there are only 5 missions in Evocati right now) but there are a few still missing so what we are doing is, um... wrapping up the outstanding missions and tasks... which we take through JIRA. So the team is working through the outstanding JIRA lists and to keep it organised we define the FOCUS at the beginning of each week as well as which missions we want to review and we are doing the review at the end of each week. This means that we are also doing daily THINGS to ensure we stay on top of BLOCKERS and any issues that could arise, and also to track progress.
Additionally to the reviews we are also doing PLAYTHROUGHS where... DIRECTORS or LEADS for example can experience the missions themselves, they can play them for themselves and provide additional feedback to the team as well on top of the reviews we have... so... this feedback... we get ALL THE FEEDBACK and it really helps the team to improve and balance the missions further.
This is where we are, we have made lots of progress doing all these REVIEWS and PLAYTHROUGHS and now we're just closing out the LAST BITS so we anticipate to be FEATURE COMPLETE in the very near future"
Luke Pressley ex Crytek, Lead Live Design 3y 10mo, UK
"This week we've been focussing on taking the rest of our missions to FINAL, we've got 7 more taken to FEATURE COMPLETE and I think that leaves us with only 4 more to take there, and we're close."
Matthew Lightfoot ex DayZ/Arma, Associate Producer 2y, UK
"Some of the focuses of the IFCS team was supporting the AI team with bugfixing and spline following, so we've managed to close out quite a few bugs now, we've got one left, which is going to extend to next week and before John can start on the spline following tasks"
John Pritchett Senior Physics Programmer, LA, since 2013
"I'm out here at Foundry 42 so that I can work with Andrew Nicholson (Tech Designer, UK, 1y-ish) and David Colson (junior gameplay programmer, 5mo, UK) on FLIGHT MODEL, so helping out with the TUNING and helping David work on... he's.... he's... been working WITH me recently so he's working on the GRAV-LEV SYSTEM and optimising IFCS and things like that"
Andrew Nicholson Tech Designer, 1y-ish, UK
So last week we managed to complete... I managed to complete a complete pass on the ship tunings for the FCM, velocities, to make things a little faster, it took a LONG time to get through all those ships but I'm really pleased with how that's worked out. This week the focus is the GRAV-LEV simulation for the HOVERBIKES and ATMOSPHERIC TUNINGS and the drag simulation in atmospheric flight.
David Colson Junior Gameplay Programmer, 5mo, UK
We've discovered a little bit before we went to Evocati last week, we found that every so often the ships would just loose control, you would roll and yaw to one side and the PLANE would just start spinning and you weren't able to recover very easily. And we quickly discovered that some PERFORMANCE IMPROVEMENTS that were added a few days earlier CAUSED this issue, we weren't exactly sure why but we needed to release to Evocati so we REMOVED the performance improvements which fixed the ships loosing control but, you know, we still wanted these performance improvements so I went back a couple of days later and took a deeper look at these performance improvements and discovered that, you know, I'd made a mistake and there was some... um... FORCE COUPLES in the way the ship rotates that weren't balanced very well as a result of the performance improvements and it meant that the ship tried to make some manoevures it wasn't balanced and it would just uncontrollably SPIN and not be able to get out."
Leo Vansteenkiste ex-Junior Gameplay Programmer 1y, Gameplay Programmer 1y, UK
"Last week on the (Mobiglass) starmap was quite alright, there are still a few issue where we lost the input and we had a few crashes, those have been fixed. The crashes were kind of hard to fix because they are kind of random"
Mark White Production Assistant 2y, UK
"On the starmap we've been doing the last few bugfixes, on Thursday or Friday last week we got it to a point where we're now happy with it on the UI side so that's now this morning gone over to Todd, Todd's viewed it this morning, he's just sent over a list of 5 or 6 bugs. So now we're going to estimate those, get them into the schedule. Once those bugs are done again we'll go back to Todd and hopefully that'll be it and it'll be completely signed off for 3.0 live"
Chad McKinney ex-Software Engineer 1y 6mo, Lead Gameplay Engineer 4mo, LA
So right now there's kind of two things I'm working on right now with PERSISTENCE. One is just general bug fixing, we've done a lot of work to get persistent behaviour into the game, persisting LOCATIONS, persistent INVENTORY, persisting items and port attachment and so on... Now that we're getting these FEATURES into the hands of the BACKERS and the EVOCATI we're starting to see some very RARE and HARD TO CATCH BUGS come in and so spending time tracking those things down, very rare..."
That's it up to 15:20 in the video, I might do the rest as it's clear to anyone who's remotely paying attention what's happening and what's coming.
Also...
April 2016 Chris Roberts definition of MVP (http://scqa.info/?show=10FTC&episode=83&qid=9) from 10FTC-083 (http://scqa.info/transcript/?episode=10FTC-083)
Quote
So, really what we're doing with Star Citizen is we're working on the game, adding features for an incredibly ambitious design – I don't think there is any other game that is trying to do as much as we're trying to do. So, degree of difficulty 11, not 10. And, we'll have what we determine is a minimum viable product feature list for what you would call Star Citizen the commercial release which is basically when you say, "Okay, we've gotten to this point and we've still got plans to add a lot more cool stuff and more content and more functionality and more features…" – Which by the way includes some of the later stretch goals we have because not all of that is going to be for 'absolutely right here' on the commercial release. But we'll have something that we'll think, 'Okay yeah, not everyone can play it but it doesn't matter – you can load it up, it plays really well, it's really stable, there's lots of content, there's lots of fun things to do, different professions, lots of places to go, we've got a really good ecosystem.' So, when we get to that point that's when we would say, "Now it's not alpha, it's not beta, it's Star Citizen 1.0."
Post by: dsmart on November 16, 2017, 04:05:54 PM
(https://i.imgur.com/FpKlKBI.png)
Post by: David-2 on November 16, 2017, 05:31:44 PM
You pasted in those charts upside down, right? 'Cause if they're not upside down ... this project's going in the wrong direction ...
Post by: StanTheMan on November 17, 2017, 04:01:53 AM
He gets a girlfriend, takes her out for dinner buys her presents etc etc and just as he thinks he is finally getting laid.. she dumps him.
Now he is back to square one even more desperate than ever !
CRoberts has barely let the backers get their hand up Star Citizen's 3.0 knickers.
Obviously he knows he isn't packing what he said he was.
If Backers get hands on 3.0, he is going to get punched as they leave with red faces and knob cheese on their fingers.
Some will keep it quiet out of embarrassment and others will cry Batgirrrrrl !
Post by: dsmart on November 17, 2017, 06:10:33 AM
CPU: Intel Core i7 6700k @ 4.6GHz
RAM: 32GB DDR4 @ 3000 MHz
GPU: NVidia GTX 1080 @ 2.0GHz
OS: Windows 10 Pro Build 15063
Display: 3440x1440 with GSync, Borderless windowed, no V-Sync
Post by: dsmart on November 17, 2017, 06:33:38 AM
You pasted in those charts upside down, right? 'Cause if they're not upside down ... this project's going in the wrong direction ...
Not upside down. Yeah, I know, it's patently hilarious.
I also added the AtV transcript to my previous post (scroll up)
Post by: N0mad on November 17, 2017, 07:05:13 AM
Post by: Motto on November 17, 2017, 07:25:40 AM
Post by: Flashwit on November 17, 2017, 10:08:16 AM
Post by: Motto on November 17, 2017, 10:43:59 AM
Post by: dsmart on November 17, 2017, 11:43:51 AM
Going bankrupt won't save Chris and his croonies. When CIG crashed, the real drama will start.
Yup, that's basically going to be the most hilarious part of the farce.
Post by: dsmart on November 17, 2017, 02:10:11 PM
https://robertsspaceindustries.com/comm-link/home-featured-content/16249-The-Anniversary-Special
LOL!! at the new schedule
https://robertsspaceindustries.com/schedule-report
Post by: N0mad on November 17, 2017, 02:16:28 PM
Post by: Motto on November 17, 2017, 02:28:31 PM
Post by: SpaceTroll on November 17, 2017, 03:50:46 PM
:D
Post by: dsmart on November 17, 2017, 03:53:34 PM
It has the feel of a last little desperate push for cash before the ELE :laugh:
Thing is, as was proven (http://www.dereksmart.com/forum/index.php?topic=9.msg3456#msg3456) back when they came "clean" and posted a massive list of bugs, they are STILL withholding the true amount of issues in the project. Which means, given how massive 3.0 is, there are probably 1000+ bugs in there, added to the 3000+ still in 2.6.3
Post by: dsmart on November 19, 2017, 03:30:13 PM
Post by: Aya Reiko on November 19, 2017, 04:57:50 PM
(https://i.imgur.com/uPgDfdi.png)You could argue the drought began at either GrimHex or Star Marine when you compare the number of releases before each event to the number afterward.
Post by: N0mad on November 20, 2017, 08:59:20 AM
I've never seen this sub reddit so salty. When you lay out the timeline as above, it's painfully apparent how little progress has been made. I'm sure it won't stop the whales emptying their wallets at the holiday sale to keep the project stumbling on for another year.
Post by: David-2 on November 20, 2017, 12:50:56 PM
https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/comments/7e2y7w/release_timeline/
I've never seen this sub reddit so salty.
What's truly remarkable about it is there is nobody at all claiming that the negative remarks are coming from trolls or DS alts!
BTW, speaking of the drought - I haven't noticed anybody in any recent reddit thread attributing delays to "tool development" such that things will move faster in the future once all this great tooling-under-development is in place! So maybe that excuse is finally retired.
There are still a few folks - even in this thread! - claiming the delay is due to all the awesome unprecedented "tech" being developed in this game. AFAIK most of this "tech" (e.g., the magic Subsumption!) has yet to be seen outside of subscriber videos, and some of it isn't even seen there, only talked about. (I myself have developed, over the past few years, a sublinear exact solution to the Travelling Salesman Problem (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Travelling_salesman_problem), it's awesome tech, and I'll be releasing it as soon as I finish polishing it...)
Final comment: short memories! There are still people - even in this thread! - claiming that 3.0 is a major advance and denying that any cuts have been made to it since it was "announced" by CR.
Post by: N0mad on November 20, 2017, 01:13:58 PM
I haven't noticed anybody in any recent reddit thread attributing delays to "tool development" such that things will move faster in the future once all this great tooling-under-development is in place! So maybe that excuse is finally retired.
It's almost as though the SC defenders have finally run out of excuses.
I can't wait for 3.0 to go live and turn out to be a massive disappointment -> GET A REFUND
Post by: N0mad on November 20, 2017, 01:18:36 PM
https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/comments/7e6xix/i_no_longer_believe_30_will_release_in_2017/
Some wit posted this:
https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/comments/592llu/if_cig_thinks_2016_isnt_likely_for_30_anymore/
:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
Post by: Motto on November 20, 2017, 01:46:41 PM
I'm still putting my money on CIG not making it to Games Con 2018 though.
Post by: nightfire on November 20, 2017, 03:03:51 PM
BTW, speaking of the drought - I haven't noticed anybody in any recent reddit thread attributing delays to "tool development" such that things will move faster in the future once all this great tooling-under-development is in place! So maybe that excuse is finally retired.
Sorry to burst your bubble, but… how about this one (https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/comments/7e5fgg/what_is_star_citizens_overall_progress/)?
Quote
They wont be as long because getting to 3.0 was the hard part. They have the delta patcher now, they have the tools to build cities, planets, ships. There is more work to do but the things required to build the universe efficiently is there.
There’s always one more idiot :laugh:
Post by: randomness on November 20, 2017, 04:07:03 PM
You can get great visuals without having to rely on a massive polycount.
Here's "House of the Dying Sun", for example:
Look at the poly-count for things like the asteroids, or enemy ships. Did you really miss that extra level of detail watching that trailer? :)
Also, people can crap on No Man's Sky all they want, but you have to admit, some of the ships in that game do look decent (http://static4.businessinsider.com/image/57b07894db5ce925008b69b3-1920/no%20man's%20sky_20160810141733.jpg)
Now , I'm not a game developertm, but wouldn't it make sense for you massive multiplayer game to be accessible to as many people as possible, what with those budgeting concerns ?
I have to admit , I'm rather clueless about this project and most of its history, and have only recently started to dig a bit into its history. I was actually gonna pick up a basic package with the anniversary sale, but apparently their sale doesn't actually mean reduced-price-kinda-sale , so I'm holding off . Seems to be the right decision :lol:
Post by: dsmart on November 20, 2017, 05:32:08 PM
https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/comments/7e2y7w/release_timeline/
I've never seen this sub reddit so salty. When you lay out the timeline as above, it's painfully apparent how little progress has been made. I'm sure it won't stop the whales emptying their wallets at the holiday sale to keep the project stumbling on for another year.
It's amazing. And as usual, I get blamed.
https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/comments/7e2y7w/release_timeline/dq2oknf/
Post by: Spunky Munkee on November 20, 2017, 11:59:13 PM
He might announce the sad news after the sale because the risk will be minimal. Then he will claim that we are almost there and throws in a word like Subsumption, AI, or netcode as the cause of the delay. Only then will he again mention the new periodic patch drop system. I bet that will become his excuse to delay any patches until March- April. Then they will get 2.8.11.163 The toilet paper patch.
This will be a thinly veiled excuse of a patch that will be as useful as wet toilet paper.
Post by: dsmart on November 21, 2017, 04:27:25 AM
Haven't they figured it out yet? Chris Robbers will never say anything, at least as long as his holiday ship sales are coming up. He has the potential to sucker them for a million dollars or possibly more if the hype train is still running.
He might announce the sad news after the sale because the risk will be minimal. Then he will claim that we are almost there and throws in a word like Subsumption, AI, or netcode as the cause of the delay. Only then will he again mention the new periodic patch drop system. I bet that will become his excuse to delay any patches until March- April. Then they will get 2.8.11.163 The toilet paper patch.
This will be a thinly veiled excuse of a patch that will be as useful as wet toilet paper.
God I hope they start selling plots of land on their barren moons. That would be the epicenter of 2018 hilarity.
Also...
Quote
they have 10 days to make $6.5 million in order to match last years funding
lol
Total in November 2017 (so far): $1,081,927
Total in November 2016 (total): $7,776,767
last year they pulled in an amazing $6,738,501 during their 12 day anniversary sale, so it could happen! of course, speculation last year was that 3.0 and a huge number of game systems were right around the corner for jan/feb 2017 at the absolute latest, along with a hanger or flight ready status for a ton of new concept ships
they need about the same level of funding as last year, but I'm thinking they won't hit above $5m this november (prediction models indicate sub $4m, but never underestimate how fucking stupid these people are)
Post by: Spunky Munkee on November 21, 2017, 04:58:54 AM
Yeah. I was reading a post on Spectrum today where the OP thought CIG out not sell any more concept sale ships, at least until they catch up on all the ships they still owe backers.
He was shouted down by citizens who told him that if he didn't want the concept ship he does not need to buy it but don't screw other citizens out of the opportunity. They are practically begging to hand their money to Robbers.
I'm dumbfounded.. They haven't figured any of this out yet....
Post by: dsmart on November 21, 2017, 06:10:21 AM
https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/comments/7eh7v3/30_spoilers_5th_evocati_qa_update/
Q: How’s testing this week?
A: We did a lot of focused tests in the past 7 days including 100 player server stress tests, shopping experience tests, mission system tests, and reviewing ships’ completion status. We’re at patch 3.0.0X now, and we’re able to test most missions except combat missions, Miles’ and Ruto’s missions. CIG gave us 25 million aUEC so we can travel to the player hubs and buy everything on the shelves for the shopping experience test. This also meant we can afford as much cargo, re-fuel, repair, and insurance deductibles as we want. Outside of the constant mobiGlas bugs, the shopping experience can be considered feature complete and hassle free. The missions system still needs work and I’m hoping that CIG enables the mission-givers Miles and Ruto soon. We can use the beds on ships again, but the ability to log out with them is not yet implemented.
Q: Can the Aurora haul cargo?
A: Yes and no. You can buy SCUs worth of cargo (1m3 box) from trade kiosks but it won’t APPEAR on the Aurora because external cargo boxes aren’t implemented yet. 1 SCU of cargo equals 100 units, so if you buy 6 SCU of cargo for the Aurora, you effectively bought 600 units of cargo. You can buy and sell cargo with the Aurora, Mustang and Hornet through the trade kiosks at the 3 player hubs (Port Olisar, GrimHex, and Levski). With the small, less than 1 SCU “unit cargo boxes” that you can find/carry/place, you can technically place them inside the Aurora but it’s a tricky process under gravity. Any ship where you have to use a ladder to get inside the ship prevents you from placing small cargo boxes inside because your character automatically releases any cargo box from your hand to use the ladder. Any ship that has an accessible ramp to get inside you can place as much cargo as it can fit, but it’s best to place them on designated mag-plates (cargo grid) so they don’t move during travel. You can have a mix of large SCU non-carry-able cargo boxes and small unit cargo boxes that you can carry/place/stack in the same cargo grid.
Q: How’s the FPS lately?
A: I’ve been getting a wide range of frames lately. From as low as 7 FPS in a full server to 65 FPS in a fresh server, my average FPS is about 30 in a 60 player server. To me, that’s a significant improvement from 2.6.3.
Q: How are NPCs coming along?
A: They’re still confined to the player hubs, but they make the hubs feel alive especially Levski. The shopkeepers make comments while you browse and shop, and the space ATC guy sounds like a good guy to hang out with. NPC ships only appear during missions AFAIK. Miles and Ruto are at Levski and GrimHex, respectively, but they’re not enabled yet.
Q: Are the missions from 2.X gone now?
A: Tessa and the ICC Probe missions are not in 3.0 AFAIK. There is no ICC Probe to QT jump to. The CommArray satellites and their missions are still in 3.0 with the added multiple turret security. There are only 4 CommArray satellites and 1 CryAstro service station around Crusader. The Private Eye mission at Covalex Station near Daymar is in 3.0. The Covalex station has a small new area to explore and the secret room to get the good ending is still there. I don’t know if the numerous collectibles at Yela’s belt is still around because I haven’t bothered to look. Security Outpost Kareah is still at Cellin in 3.0, but the security mission for it is not in the mission board app. It might be unlockable with enough good reputation.
Q: How are the bikes and rover handling now?
A: The Dragonfly is working much better than the Nox lately, while the Ursa rover is much more stable than the bikes. The Dragonfly does better in off-road terrain while the Nox works best on smooth surfaces like the race track at Deakins Outpost. The Nox still tends to flip on its side and turning with the Nox is like riding a stallion without a saddle. There’s still the issue of collision with both bikes and the rover. With the bikes, hitting a boulder on the moon surface sends you flying into the air and flipping uncontrollably. With the Ursa rover, it jumps upward when hitting obstacles and flips over. Parking the bikes into ships is still tricky where they move erratically trying to conform to the larger ship’s internal grid. Parking the rover inside the Connie is less problematic than the bikes, but it tends to slip through the cargo bay floor when closing them. That bug needs to be fixed. With Patch X, the bikes can now strafe up and down and they automatically switch from hover mode to flight mode if you can get high enough above the surface.
Q: How’s ship combat? Did they really buff the Gladius?
A: With a “no PVP unless stated otherwise” rule in ETF and no combat focused testing yet, I don’t know. When CIG states we can test combat among each other and combat/escort missions are fixed, I’ll let you know. The Gladius does have 3x size 3 weapon mounts in 3.0.
Q: What’s improved significantly from the first 3.0 patch to the current one?
A: Traversal. In the first 3.0.0 patch, I had a tough time just getting to the moons. Now that we have ~1000m/s AB cruise on most ships and buoys are plentiful and much closer to the moons, traversal is easier now. Most multi-crew ships have enough quantum fuel to travel for hours, while the single-seater ships have enough QF to reach Levski and traverse the moons. However, our ships don’t have enough fuel to reach the other planets. Hurston is over 32 million kilometers away and ArcCorp is over 42 million km away. MicroTech was removed. Delamar, and its landing zone Levski, is the furthest moon we can reach at about 800,000 km away.
Q: If you weren’t in Evocati Test Flight what would you be doing to pass the time during the Great Drought?
A: I’d be playing Space Engineers, Stellaris, Empyrion, Astroneer, Hellion, Elite Dangerous, or my old copy of Freelancer. I certainly wouldn’t be spending my free time being salty on the internet.
Post by: N0mad on November 21, 2017, 06:21:35 AM
Q: How’s ship combat? Did they really buff the Gladius?
A: With a “no PVP unless stated otherwise” rule in ETF and no combat focused testing yet, I don’t know.
Let me get this straight - it's a space combat game which doesn't allow testers to test the space combat? :siren:
Q: If you weren’t in Evocati Test Flight what would you be doing to pass the time during the Great Drought?
A: I’d be playing Space Engineers, Stellaris, Empyrion, Astroneer, Hellion, Elite Dangerous, or my old copy of Freelancer. I certainly wouldn’t be spending my free time being salty on the internet.
That's also the answer for what to do AFTER the Great Drought :laugh:
Post by: randomness on November 21, 2017, 08:57:29 AM
Q: How are the bikes and rover handling now?
A: The Dragonfly is working much better than the Nox lately, while the Ursa rover is much more stable than the bikes. The Dragonfly does better in off-road terrain while the Nox works best on smooth surfaces like the race track at Deakins Outpost. The Nox still tends to flip on its side and turning with the Nox is like riding a stallion without a saddle. There’s still the issue of collision with both bikes and the rover. With the bikes, hitting a boulder on the moon surface sends you flying into the air and flipping uncontrollably. With the Ursa rover, it jumps upward when hitting obstacles and flips over. Parking the bikes into ships is still tricky where they move erratically trying to conform to the larger ship’s internal grid. Parking the rover inside the Connie is less problematic than the bikes, but it tends to slip through the cargo bay floor when closing them. That bug needs to be fixed. With Patch X, the bikes can now strafe up and down and they automatically switch from hover mode to flight mode if you can get high enough above the surface.
Meanwhile....
Also guys, apparently we're getting the 30 fps cinematic experience. PC gaming would be proud.
Post by: Motto on November 21, 2017, 11:26:23 PM
Post by: David-2 on November 21, 2017, 11:55:57 PM
GOG has a Black Friday sale: the whole bundle of Wing Commander for $ 10,- (https://www.gog.com/promo/20171121_black_friday_sale_wing_commander_pack) :D
How much for just the jpegs?
Post by: dsmart on November 24, 2017, 05:09:36 PM
New schedule report is out. Notice how the list of bugs is no longer present. You know, cuz there's a sale going on. :laugh:
https://robertsspaceindustries.com/schedule-report
Post by: Meowz on November 25, 2017, 10:04:51 AM
:lol:
New schedule report is out. Notice how the list of bugs is no longer present. You know, cuz there's a sale going on. :laugh:
https://robertsspaceindustries.com/schedule-report
Its funny how EA gets national attention over loot boxes and their greedy tactics, but everyone looks the other way and accepts CIG's downright fraudulent marketing. Honestly, it just makes me sad that a company can even get away with crap like this today.
Post by: Aya Reiko on November 25, 2017, 12:33:10 PM
Because, truth be told, CiG is small potatoes in the industry at large. While the cult think they're a big, huge deal, the truth is no one really cares about them anymore.:lol:
New schedule report is out. Notice how the list of bugs is no longer present. You know, cuz there's a sale going on. :laugh:
https://robertsspaceindustries.com/schedule-report
Its funny how EA gets national attention over loot boxes and their greedy tactics, but everyone looks the other way and accepts CIG's downright fraudulent marketing. Honestly, it just makes me sad that a company can even get away with crap like this today.
Post by: dsmart on November 25, 2017, 05:52:17 PM
Post by: premiumnugz on November 25, 2017, 09:02:49 PM
5 years ago this month
God it's vomit inducingly cringey
Post by: Spunky Munkee on November 25, 2017, 11:20:33 PM
Post by: nightfire on November 26, 2017, 02:22:33 PM
Q: How are NPCs coming along?
A: They’re still confined to the player hubs, but they make the hubs feel alive especially Levski.
Yeah, I can totally see that.
(https://i.imgur.com/zNeeq9L.jpg)
Post by: StanTheMan on November 26, 2017, 05:16:52 PM
Q: How are NPCs coming along?
A: They’re still confined to the player hubs, but they make the hubs feel alive especially Levski.
Yeah, I can totally see that.
(https://i.imgur.com/zNeeq9L.jpg)
Ben and Lando glued at the waist, an elderly CRoberts taking advantage of an unsuspecting gamer or they got Kevin Spacey in the game.
Post by: Backer42 on November 30, 2017, 09:21:22 AM
5 years ago this month
How did I ever fall for this bullshit?
I guess I was five years younger back then. :nms:
Post by: Motto on November 30, 2017, 01:15:11 PM
Post by: Scruffpuff on November 30, 2017, 04:47:30 PM
The reference to NMS is not correct. NMS was released as a game, and as promised. However prior to that, all the backers went completely overboard in their fantasizing about what it all would, could and should do. And Sean didn't do enough to correct them/that. So the backers created their own hype and went mad when their - not Sean's - visions weren't met.
Finally someone else said this - I thought I was alone in the universe in spotting this. Gaming communities are particularly adept at creating their own realities, even with near-infinite amounts of indisputable and rock-solid evidence right in front of them.
You see this shit everywhere: Ultima Online was "killed" with PVE-PVP sharding. (So killed that it's still going today.) SWG was "killed" by the NGE. (SWG was slated to be cancelled due to lack of profit - the NGE was a hail Mary pass.) Theses opinions are repeated all over the net as fact, drowning out the actual events, until anyone casually researching years later only finds the wrong data, which gets repeated authoritatively until the truth becomes nearly impossible to find.
Post by: Meowz on November 30, 2017, 08:28:11 PM
The reference to NMS is not correct. NMS was released as a game, and as promised. However prior to that, all the backers went completely overboard in their fantasizing about what it all would, could and should do. And Sean didn't do enough to correct them/that. So the backers created their own hype and went mad when their - not Sean's - visions weren't met.
Finally someone else said this - I thought I was alone in the universe in spotting this. Gaming communities are particularly adept at creating their own realities, even with near-infinite amounts of indisputable and rock-solid evidence right in front of them.
You see this shit everywhere: Ultima Online was "killed" with PVE-PVP sharding. (So killed that it's still going today.) SWG was "killed" by the NGE. (SWG was slated to be cancelled due to lack of profit - the NGE was a hail Mary pass.) Theses opinions are repeated all over the net as fact, drowning out the actual events, until anyone casually researching years later only finds the wrong data, which gets repeated authoritatively until the truth becomes nearly impossible to find.
What was the real spark that lit the fuse was the holocron system. SWG had a rapidly growing subscription base until people found out you could unlock Jedi by randomly grinding out professions. That killed the fun for a lot of people, and the upward momentum. Everything after that was SOE's and Lucas' attempt to regain that upward momentum, but NGE did in fact "kill" the game, it was just the last of a thousand cuts for SWG.
https://www.gamasutra.com/blogs/RaphKoster/20150417/241406/A_Jedi_Saga.php
Post by: dsmart on December 01, 2017, 03:19:04 PM
Post by: Ghostmaker on December 01, 2017, 08:27:44 PM
That Gamasutra article's fairly interesting.
https://www.gamasutra.com/blogs/RaphKoster/20150417/241406/A_Jedi_Saga.php
One of the other things that I recall about SWG and the NGE was there was a stink about how it had invalidated a large chunk of a recent expansion -- I think it was Trials of Obi-Wan? I don't know if there were refunds, but there was a LOT of hard feelings regarding not only the loss of existing content, but the removal of content that had just been released (and not for free!) two weeks prior.
Post by: krylite on December 02, 2017, 07:33:46 AM
Unfortunately he seems oblivious or uninformed that all he's seeing are cryengine demo levels and doesn't understand that all the glitches and low frame rate are fundamental years long issues. Hopefully that changes eventually. "test server, work in progress"(hope?) :laugh:
Post by: dsmart on December 02, 2017, 12:32:44 PM
Post by: Spunky Munkee on December 02, 2017, 04:23:10 PM
Post by: Motto on December 02, 2017, 05:09:54 PM
Post by: dsmart on December 03, 2017, 06:31:08 AM
Do they think it's going to improve much from the buggy picture show it is? They won't remain satisfied with this. At the worst things will continue in a slow decline. Fewer and fewer backers finding merit in playing the same limited jobs, ships not making it through the pipeline and serving no use in game. Fewer people wasting money on the latest flavor of fighter until staff cuts slow the already slow improvements to a glacial crawl.
Well, if you recall, they did the same thing with 2.0 and 2.6; though they weren't anywhere as bad as 3.0. So it is likely that they will try to at least get it a bit more stable then release it for the holidays. I don't think they care about the stability, performance, networking etc - as they can just hand wave it off a being in development.
Post by: dsmart on December 03, 2017, 06:31:52 AM
Even on Reddit there's some serious shit being debated (https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/comments/7h5s31/lets_tell_us_the_trueth_about_30/)
Yeah, we just ignore those guys now. They have no power, and no say. Heck, a bunch of whales just gave CIG another $6M in November. So yeah.
Post by: dsmart on December 03, 2017, 06:34:59 AM
https://starcitizentracker.github.io/
(https://i.imgur.com/PnGI9z8.jpg)
Every ship in Red, isn't in the game at this point.
(https://i.imgur.com/os9ra94.png)
https://robertsspaceindustries.com/starmap
(https://i.imgur.com/pUBC97G.png)
Post by: dsmart on December 03, 2017, 07:41:11 AM
Pretty much the patches have gotten progressively worse - if you can imagine that. And now that the 3.0 euphoria has worn off, the Twitch viewership has normalized back down to sub-400 again.
God I hope they release it to live for the holidays. That would be the greatest holiday gift to the thread, and which would best even the anniversary land sale fiasco.
Post by: Greggy_D on December 03, 2017, 08:20:16 AM
Every ship in Red, isn't in the game at this point.
HOLY SHIT! Look at all of those ships from 3-4 years ago. How are people not LIVID over the fact that ships they've paid hundreds/thousands for are not in the "game"?
Post by: Flashwit on December 03, 2017, 11:29:50 AM
Every ship in Red, isn't in the game at this point.
HOLY SHIT! Look at all of those ships from 3-4 years ago. How are people not LIVID over the fact that ships they've paid hundreds/thousands for are not in the "game"?
Exactly, and how many of those red ones do you think are even being worked on? I don't believe for a second that a speck of work has been done on the Hull-* series beyond the initial concepting.
Post by: StanTheMan on December 03, 2017, 11:37:51 AM
Pretty much the patches have gotten progressively worse - if you can imagine that.
I have a good imagination but I am definitely struggling ....
Post by: StanTheMan on December 03, 2017, 11:39:37 AM
Every ship in Red, isn't in the game at this point.
HOLY SHIT! Look at all of those ships from 3-4 years ago. How are people not LIVID over the fact that ships they've paid hundreds/thousands for are not in the "game"?
Exactly, and how many of those red ones do you think are even being worked on? I don't believe for a second that a speck of work has been done on the Hull-* series beyond the initial concepting.
and you would have thought at least one of the Hull series would be relatively easy to develop...
Post by: Spunky Munkee on December 03, 2017, 07:57:19 PM
I think he is probably riding his people hard to make magic happen and get the game to be stable, add in actual gameplay, I would if I believed this should continue. But I don't.
Had he simply made the single player S42 with multiplayer arena he could have secured funding for the other stuff building out a growing company based on success. He would probably have fucked that up too as he did to Freelancer. Now he will have his name live in gaming infamy. Not that I am sympathetic, not one bit.
Post by: Spunky Munkee on December 04, 2017, 12:15:59 AM
The only way they can see 3.0 is from some dude with the most up to date top of the line PC capturing it on You Tube. Luckily they can all experience the thrill of it all, taking off, flying in a straight line, re entering a moon's atmosphere landing, taking off...repeat...
Nothing to do but they are all OOH AAH, I can't wait!
To do what exactly?
I didn't even see a single pirate spawn.
Even through all of that you can still see frame rate issues under the best of circumstances.
I see some new names pumping out videos, I have to wonder if these were done in house by CIG and handed out? It wouldn't surprise me one bit. This whole thing has been a cock and bull story.
I don't know if that expression is universally used, a bullshit story. Fiction to entice continued financial support for Chris to take a crash course in modern game development.
He probably could have earned enough money to float his project by making this whole development a reality show. It would have been like American Chopper, Ben Lesnick as Mikey :ohdear: It would have been very entertaining. Obviously Chris would play the part of Pops, :smith: the blowhard who storms around to say it's my way or the highway. He could make a lot of money and his wife could get screen time :cripes:
See how well that works out. America loves to watch dopey people cause problems, make mistakes. It would have had universal appeal. They could have had the guys from Top Gear :) narrate and mock Robbers. BBC would have picked it up, Home boy screws up every week, ratings heaven. Get Honey Boo Boo :stare: and Momma June :stonk: to come in too.
Post by: dsmart on December 04, 2017, 06:08:14 AM
Quote
Adventure report from the PTU tonight. My self-imposed mission: complete one in-game "Quest."
Attempt #1:
Spawned in the wank pod and despite running a whole bunch of config changes and various performance tweaks, the game was as much of a 3 fps slideshow as ever. I jittered my way out of bed and then painstakingly made my way to the ship spawn chamber. Seriously this took about 3 minutes. Every time an npc would t-pose onto the screen or stutter-dance around a corner, my whole computer would freeze up for 5-10 seconds. It was like a horror movie except instead of murdered by the uncontrollably vibrating monsters I just got kind of mildly irritated. The consolation is that at least once you get out of port Ollisar the whole experience smooths out somewhat. Why they decided to make every player spawn in a tiny area when their main server performance issue occurs due to player density, I'll never know.
Eventually managed to make it to the ship spawner and decided to spawn an "Aegis Saber Tomcat Punches Above Its Weight Edition Mk 7." No idea what it was, just one of the PTU ships they allow players to spawn, but I was guessing that it was a single seat fighter because that is everything now. It spawned on pad C07. Painstakingly janked my way to the airlock and... it wouldn't open. That's no problem, dealt with that before, the solution is to jank your way to one of the other airlocks and then laboriously work your way back to your landing pad from the outside. Went to the next closest airlock- also broken. I should point out here that this bug has been in the game since 2.0 launched in fucking 2015 and they still haven't fixed it. Eventually after checking every airlock on the level, I found one that would let me out- on the far side of the pads from my ship. Great! Ran out into space. I decided it'd be faster to jump off the pads and then nipplejet my way over to my ship. Jumped off the pads, and my character went into a tumble animation and just kind of stayed there, 2 feet away from my launch point, flailing wildly and never returning control. Eventually I found the buttons to kill myself.
Attempt #2:
Back in the wank pod. Same shaky journey to the outside, where I discovered that my ASTPAIWE Mk7 was still spawned... on a whole separate set of pads from the one I respawned on. Undeterred, I threw myself off the landing platforms again and this time the nipplejets kicked into life. With a mighty fssssshhhhhh I kicked the jets in and spent the next 5+ minutes staring boredly at chat while my spaceman inched over to my ship. I guess some other people were planning to all hop in a caterpillar and fly to one of the planets but they couldn't get the doors to work? I made a mental note to grief them if I finished my mission.
Finally arriving at the ship, I noted that it was indeed a single-seat fighter, I guess... some kind of stealth ship? I didn't really take long to think about the ramifications of a stealth ship in a world where all combat happens at WW2 dogfight ranges and everything fires bright red lasers. Got in the ship, and miracle of miracles was able to take off without any jank. Now, when I say "Without any jank" I should clarify- everything in the game sucks shit. At no point in this experience did my fps jump above 5, and my spaceman is barely controllable at the best of times. But I didn't clip through anything, and didn't die, and that is a win in a Citizen's book. That's living the fucking dream. So anyway I pop into the ship and get a notification that I now have missions waiting for me to accept them if I will only bring up my retarded wrist-mounted HUD. So I hit f1 and the spaceman begins repeatedly punching himself in the dick really hard which I guess is what happens when the "Open menu" animation bugs out and starts looping. I'd heard that the bugfix for this is to just mash f1 a thousand more times, so I do that and eventually get to a menu.
Accepting the contract and navigating to it isn't easy. I'm going on some sort of rescue mission which the text says is on Delamar, the nav beacon that pops up (but I can't warp to) says is in intergalactic space, and the star map says is on Yela. Since the only one I can actually warp to is the one on the star map, I set it as my destination and proceed to hammer the "B" button a thousand times, which is the preferred method of engaging one's quantum drive. I like to imagine that all of the spaceships in the game are basically eastern european autos and all spacemen are in a permanent drunken rage as they hammer the shit out of every control just to get any kind of response. It makes the whole thing slightly less frustrating.
Anyway I get to Yela and it turns out the "Help" beacon spawned inside an asteroid so the person I'm supposed to protect dies instantly. Mission failed.
Attempt #3:
But that's okay because I'm being offered a new mission! Fly over to a wrecked starfarer and collect "The Goods." Deliver them to such and such for who cares and get like 300 credits. I know these are MMO quests and therefor basically just ways to waste your time, but it feels like if a crate is worth recovering from a wrecked spaceship you should probably pay more than the space equivalent of bus fare to whichever mercenary picks it up for you. But what do I know. Luckily the beacon for this is like 30 km away from the asteroid with the failed protection mission, so I don't have to quantum jump anywhere. I point the nose of my ship at the beacon and settle in for another 2 minute flight.
As I arrive, what to my wondering eyes should appear but another actual human being! Or at least, I assume it was. There's the wrecked starfarer, and there nestled up against its belly is a Cutlass that registers as friendly when I target it. Despite the ridiculous close-packed nature of the spawn, this is the first player I've encountered while just flying around in several hours of playing this stupid build. Naturally I set engines to full burn and just hammer those motherfucking triggers as the game devolves into a 1fps slideshow- I mean clearly he was after my loot, it's completely justified. I guess the pilot was actually in the cockpit because the cutlass begins trying to make evasive maneuvers, but either he flies in a straight line or he isn't pounding his controls hard enough because it is incredibly easy to track him and just lay on the fire until he explodes. That was... really odd, actually. Ships in 3.0 are normally completely unkillable due to lag and jank and weird balance issues. I played Arena Commander once (once) and none of the three guys on my team could kill even a single ship of the first wave, they just tanked everything.
So anyway the cutlass is dead and with one nefarious act of piracy under my belt I try to figure out how to get out of my fucking ship to get this loot. Unfortunately entering combat has A) destroyed the server, and B) destroyed my hud, including the "Push F to actually use anything in the cockpit" system that everyone is so keen on. So I'm still stuck at 1FPS and now nothing in the cockpit will respond except flight controls. Eventually I remember there's a hardcoded "Exit" key, Alt-F, and hammer that two thousand times until my guy gets up. Now all I have to do is fly into the crashed starfarer and retrieve a simple box.
Let me digress here for a moment. Do games ever make you feel motion sick? Can you remember the last time a game was so completely disorienting that you had no idea what way was up? For me it was the Descent games back in the 90's. Something about those suckers would just fuck with my inner ear something fierce. Flight sims and VR can't hold a candle to that feeling.
Well, Star Citizen can. See the thing is, the Starfarer is wrecked, so it has no power. That means the inside is zero-G, pitch black, and covered in floating debris. And every time you touch any piece of that debris, your spaceman starts doing sick 360 noscopes. Within seconds I'm completely disoriented, before half a minute has passed I am actually physically nauseous. The box, literally labelled "The Goods" is only 20m away but it might as well be 200. I seriously cannot make any progress towards it down a straight line fucking corridor, my spaceman janks and spins wildly every time I touch a control. But I am undeterred. I stand up and do a shot of maalox and then inch, ever so carefully, around every fucking piece of debris and down that hallway. The final door is in sight but it is covered in other boxes. I have no choice but to nipplejet straight at it and hope that I can bust through like some kind of retarded kool-aid man. Somehow, this actually works! I find myself in front of "The Goods" and somehow, manage to engage my grabby hands! This mission is so close to being over I can taste it. Now I just have to maneuver my way back out.
I hear laser fire from outside. Well, I assume it's laser fire. I hear noises, space noises, chopped up into incomprehensibility by the 1-2 fps that I'm getting. Did Cutlass man come back? Did the game spawn pirates on me when I got the box? I can't lose now! Slowly, caaarefully I - fuck, touched some debris, time for the zero-g tilt-a-whirl from hell again. I get back out the door and to the ship- I'm guessing it is NPC pirates shooting at it, but I really can't tell. Either way they appear to be doing zero damage to my entirely stationary, powered-off ship. Sure, okay.
I jet to the ship, pilfered goods in hand, and at last the moment is upon us. "Enter pilot seat" I tell my character, and he does just that- immediately chucking the box into the void of fucking space as he enters his pre-canned animation god DAMN IT. So apparently if you have single seat fighters, you should basically not do any mission that involves moving any kind of good because you literally have to physically stuff that shit in your ship, I guess? CIG I feel that you perhaps did not think any of this through very well.
In order to complete the mission I'd have to fight off the two basically invincible npc's, fly back to jankbase prime, spawn a ship with a cargo area, come back and redo the starfarer carnival ride bullshit a second time. I want to emphasize, this is a starter mission, paying 300 credits, and to complete it you're going to need 1+ hour and a ship that costs more than 100 bucks- one that can fight and carry cargo.
Mission abandoned.
Quote
Thank you for the kind words everyone. Not sure how often I'm going to do any kind of PTU writeup because it really is a pile of unfun garbage, but if I find something amusing I will write about it for you.
It really can't be emphasized enough how bad the combat is right now. There's a reason all of the posts on the subreddit, and all of the streamer videos, feature people just flying from planet to planet and loading/unloding cargo- you literally cannot fight in the current build of the PTU. Between super low framerates, input lag in the 2-3second range, and targets jittering all over the screen like coked up hummingbirds, it's next to impossible to land a shot. Even if you do, some asshole at CIG decided to make combat more like Elite, I guess, which means your average engagement if you can hit the target will take 3-4 minutes just to do enough damage that they die. And there is literally nothing stopping them from ignoring you for the 10 seconds it takes to set a jump destination and fly away if they feel like they're losing. Not that you could tell you were losing because, as far as I can see, the shield indicators don't work and the damage states are broken as fuck. Missiles almost never hit, and if they do hit seem to do next to no damage.
I'm actually really excited for them to fix the FPS. The game is stable enough that it doesn't crash very often already, and the only reason it is so riveting is because just fighting through the lag and low FPS to land on a planet feels like a real achievement. Smooth those framerates out and people are going to get tired of wanking over landing and go try to actually do things in the PTU, only to realize that literally every system is either a stubbed-in placeholder, or broken, or both.
Post by: nightfire on December 04, 2017, 07:00:11 AM
Mission abandoned.
He's in way over his head. He should have started with simple missions instead.
For example: "My self-imposed mission: complete one refund".
Post by: Flashwit on December 04, 2017, 10:00:28 AM
Better them than me.
Post by: dsmart on December 11, 2017, 03:32:27 PM
Post by: dsmart on December 14, 2017, 01:47:18 PM
http://mailchi.mp/cloudimperiumgames/tbd-140681
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DRCOjUfXUAIdFVZ.jpg)
Post by: helimoth on December 15, 2017, 03:10:45 AM
Post by: dsmart on December 15, 2017, 06:36:17 AM
a newsletter advertising a newsletter ??? :vince:
Yeah, in The Verse, everything goes. Everything.
Post by: Motto on December 15, 2017, 07:17:01 AM
I'm guessing this will not bring what Chris had hoped. It already wasn't to begin with, but it sure as hell won't be now with the lawsuit and Coutts dropping in.
Post by: StanTheMan on December 15, 2017, 11:08:27 AM
So, this is the all-or-nothing do-or-die SQ42 card that CIG now is pulling?
I'm guessing this will not bring what Chris had hoped. It already wasn't to begin with, but it sure as hell won't be now with the lawsuit and Coutts dropping in.
All they have .. a few mins of Mocap thats useable and some voiceovers.
Post by: Flashwit on December 15, 2017, 02:15:00 PM
Post by: Motto on December 15, 2017, 05:33:09 PM
Post by: Star Chip on December 15, 2017, 07:34:26 PM
I bought for hundreds of dollars their pretty JPEGs but all I got was this lousy newsletterEven the JPEG buying cult agree that loot box is evil and EA is shit, but spending $1000 on JPEG is awesome. Clearly BF2 in a lesser game than Star citizen, because $60 cant buy you more than the $200 JPEG. Would you buy an Irdis or buy a copy of BF2? The BF2 is a broken mess without P2W feature, Irdis is not P2W is not a broken mess, it actually has content and game play 2nd to none.
Post by: N0mad on December 16, 2017, 06:28:58 AM
Fly Safe !
Post by: Backer42 on December 16, 2017, 06:53:10 PM
Fly Safe !Just remember that Scott Manley somehow got hold of a free "press account".
Post by: Motto on December 18, 2017, 12:21:55 AM
Please, do not go live! (https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/comments/7kjakn/please_do_not_go_live/)
Post by: Flashwit on December 18, 2017, 09:32:28 AM
I'm pretty excited.
Post by: dsmart on December 18, 2017, 09:39:45 AM
That's actually a rather heartening thread. A lot of people speaking truth and not getting the shit downvoted out of them. This really does feel like a turning point. If they actually push to release this thing live before the end of the year it's going to be catastrophic.
I'm pretty excited.
They're in denial. Just wait until SQ42 trailer drops; they'll wake up and go back to their same old shitty shelves again.
Post by: helimoth on December 18, 2017, 09:45:07 AM
Post by: N0mad on December 19, 2017, 03:45:44 AM
I was wondering how important all these mechanics actually are in the game. The power distribution triangle thing looks like a throwback to the 80s games (where it wasn't that useful), I'm not even sure which game I originally saw it in (google didn't help). Besides, it only seems to matter in SC when you are in stealth mode, but is this actually a useful mechanic anyway? or is it just there because CR figured that it worked in the 80s and didn't give it much thought?
Post by: Stilo on December 19, 2017, 04:23:36 AM
Freespace ditched it.
For me that control is not really useful during combat, i prefer to choose the ship or the components before the mission.
Post by: Motto on December 19, 2017, 04:23:44 AM
Post by: dsmart on December 19, 2017, 05:39:35 AM
Quote
Is it me or do they always only fix bugs I never even noticed?:-)
https://robertsspaceindustries.com/spectrum/community/SC/forum/4/thread/star-citizen-alpha-3-0-0ao-ptu-691578-patch-notes
Post by: Kyrt on December 19, 2017, 06:08:16 AM
I remember it in XWing and Wing Commander 3.
Freespace ditched it.
For me that control is not really useful during combat, i prefer to choose the ship or the components before the mission.
It's a fairly standard mechanic that - done properly - adds a little bit of tactical thinking to combat. You prioritise speed, firepower or defence and switching to the correct mode can either emphasise your play style, compensate for your weakness or allow you to react to the game environment as needed.
It works fairly well in ED for example.
Post by: Backer42 on December 19, 2017, 07:58:01 AM
Post by: Flashwit on December 19, 2017, 09:33:20 AM
Chris doesn't get that 'exactly like real life' doesn't equal fun. People play games so that they don't have to go do boring stuff, not so that they can simulate waiting in line at the DMV.
Post by: dsmart on December 19, 2017, 10:09:17 AM
Maybe it's just me, but I can only imagine that opening up mobiglass and requesting landing/takeoff every friggin' time is going to get old real quick.
Chris doesn't get that 'exactly like real life' doesn't equal fun. People play games so that they don't have to go do boring stuff, not so that they can simulate waiting in line at the DMV.
It's cute that you think that's the only annoying and shitty thing going on in the "game". That's nuthin'. :laugh:
Post by: dsmart on December 20, 2017, 08:49:10 AM
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DRgCeBaX0AI5fOx.jpg)
So basically, either impostors or a skybox. :)
Post by: N0mad on December 20, 2017, 09:08:58 AM
http://docs.aws.amazon.com/lumberyard/latest/userguide/rendering-graphics-fog-volumetric.html
http://docs.cryengine.com/display/SDKDOC2/Volumetric+Fog
Depending on which engine their lawyers say they are using today.
Post by: dsmart on December 20, 2017, 09:12:41 AM
I'm note entirely sure that Ben Parry understands what he's talking about. The good news is that both Cryengine or Lumberyard support volumetric fog:
http://docs.aws.amazon.com/lumberyard/latest/userguide/rendering-graphics-fog-volumetric.html
http://docs.cryengine.com/display/SDKDOC2/Volumetric+Fog
But I guess CIG are rapidly rewriting everything so that they can claim to be using their own custom built engine when they get to court.
Of course he does. The engine supporting it, has nothing to do with the game actually implementing it. I am having a Twitter thread about that right now.
Post by: dsmart on December 20, 2017, 11:41:18 AM
(https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/82210263440306176/393099463125893141/unknown.png)
(https://robertsspaceindustries.com/media/0df24fxoeeqsrr/channel_item_full/TMBL_HeavyTank_ShotE_PJ02-Squashed.jpg)
Post by: dsmart on December 20, 2017, 11:47:13 AM
Post by: Motto on December 20, 2017, 11:52:29 AM
Post by: Bubba on December 20, 2017, 12:11:19 PM
Seriously, does someone have a ranking of the most pathetic RSI promo materials? This one is pretty sad, and (from my limited engagement) I thought they usually made promotions that at least look good. Have there always been stinkers like this, or are we looking at desperation as we approach the Event Horizon?
Post by: N0mad on December 20, 2017, 12:19:14 PM
Was this tank thing ever mentioned before or did Chris decide on Monday that they were out of cash and a tank could be done quickly?
Post by: DemonInvestor on December 20, 2017, 12:26:40 PM
Post by: dsmart on December 20, 2017, 12:36:20 PM
(https://i.imgur.com/bRFKG91.png)
Post by: Greggy_D on December 20, 2017, 12:56:47 PM
Post by: Motto on December 20, 2017, 12:56:57 PM
Post by: Greggy_D on December 20, 2017, 05:58:17 PM
Space tank! SOLD!!
(https://i.imgur.com/bRFKG91.png)
They're almost up to $200k for the day. Morons.
Post by: AncoGaming on December 20, 2017, 07:22:25 PM
Post by: dsmart on December 21, 2017, 05:27:58 AM
Yeah. As I say... that's just stupid because in the meantime, nothing gets done.
Remember what I said in my GTL stream? That as long as there are few whales who think throwing money at this is a good idea, they can keep going for that much longer? First it was land sales, not it's tanks. I can't wait for what comes next.
Post by: Flashwit on December 21, 2017, 08:18:55 AM
Post by: dsmart on December 21, 2017, 09:17:49 AM
On the other hand it looks like at best it's going to give them a couple hundred thousand boost which is peanuts really. They're slowly getting less and less return on each sale, which means they have to do sales more often, which means people may eventually get sick of their shit.
Well the diminished sales are already evidence of people being sick of their shit.
Post by: Motto on December 22, 2017, 12:27:34 AM
Post by: Motto on December 22, 2017, 12:41:19 AM
3.0 PTU has been opened to all backers! (https://robertsspaceindustries.com/spectrum/community/SC/forum/4/thread/ptu-build-status)
Merry Christmas everybody!
Post by: Backer42 on December 22, 2017, 01:09:32 AM
3.0 PTU has been opened to all backers!There aren't many left, are there? How about another Free Flight week?
Post by: StanTheMan on December 22, 2017, 04:23:23 AM
BREAKING!
3.0 PTU has been opened to all backers! (https://robertsspaceindustries.com/spectrum/community/SC/forum/4/thread/ptu-build-status)
Merry Christmas everybody!
And isn't it marvellous that they are in "the first phase of testing" !
Bring out the rest of Santa's little helpers...with their Christmas spending money...
(http://www.elfcrazy.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/11/christmas-elf-world-record.jpg)
Post by: orko on December 22, 2017, 07:07:06 AM
And isn't it marvellous that they are in "the first phase of testing" !
Bring out the rest of Santa's little helpers...with their Christmas spending money...
(http://www.elfcrazy.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/11/christmas-elf-world-record.jpg)
Feels like a compromise. I guess CIG now can say they've delivered _something_ to boost some sales and the devs can leave office to take a short breath during holidays. It'll be interesting to see what this next phase of "testing" will be, and how passive CIG will be in early 2018. The first quarter of last year was... dry in my memory. This is an endless cycle of solution development and marketing gone wrong. They've been "polishing" this shit for over a year with only a fraction of the promised features in place. But yeah, you all know that.
EDIT: It'll also be very interesting to see how this all plays out performance-wise, and how the community will handle the slow and painful wait for another x years.
Post by: StanTheMan on December 22, 2017, 06:45:07 PM
Together with what they showed of SQ42, 3.0 will keep a lot of Backers just about on side.
So if they are out of cash, it will all come down to the $ they can raise.
They can go quiet for 3-4 months if they have enough or we will be hearing about share offers and more "tonks" sooner rather than later.
Post by: helimoth on December 23, 2017, 02:48:43 AM
Post by: N0mad on December 23, 2017, 04:48:29 AM
Post by: N0mad on December 25, 2017, 04:07:57 AM
I hadn't realised it was going to be a series. I didn't see the release dates though.
:supaburn:
UPDATE: Next part is up already !!!
Post by: helimoth on December 25, 2017, 05:19:58 AM
Post by: McDrake on December 25, 2017, 07:20:30 AM
feels like this is good of a thread as any to wish all of you magnificent goons/shitlords a merry xmas :toot:Thanks. Same to you....all of you ;)
Post by: dsmart on December 25, 2017, 02:09:34 PM
feels like this is good of a thread as any to wish all of you magnificent goons/shitlords a merry xmas :toot:
Yup, it sure is!! Merry Christmas & Happy Holidays fellow shitlords! :laugh: :supaburn:
Post by: jwh1701 on January 01, 2018, 06:35:51 PM
I'm not sure if this is the correct thread for this or not. This popup up in suggestions:
Live stream talking about have massive server meshes to accommodate 1000 people. So I grabbed that and put into to google and got this thread.
I have grasped a few things about game development reading and researching. The only thing in this thread I have put my hands on is VM and used extensively. I have built cluster systems using MS and ONtap but not sure if these are similar to game servers.
https://robertsspaceindustries.com/spectrum/community/SC/forum/50259/thread/how-many-people-can-be-in-an-instance/198078
If anyone can answer or provide details on what Clive is proposing is possible? Can server meshes and handle 1000 players? A person name Valaska seems to have some knowledge and greatly disagrees.
Thank you
Post by: Matriarch on January 01, 2018, 11:07:00 PM
If anyone can answer or provide details on what Clive is proposing is possible? Can server meshes and handle 1000 players? A person name Valaska seems to have some knowledge and greatly disagrees.
Long-time lurker, first time poster.
Derek wrote a good post about just this issue in October last year:
http://dereksmart.com/forums/reply/5949/ (http://dereksmart.com/forums/reply/5949/)
Short answer, it's never going to happen. Long answer, it's technically possible but it's a very complex system that will take a long time to develop and debug, and they're starting on it very late in the piece.
From a technical point of view, it's not a hardware issue, it's a software issue. Sure, there are many amazing cloud computing technologies at the moment that allow you to scale server resources instantly to your computing demands, but the magic is in the software that you write to run on those resources. We're talking about a distributed software computing system, presumably with the intelligence to dynamically partition bits of the game world, to handle balancing and passing of users between servers, and to (intelligently) send relevant game world data between servers, while filtering out or minimising the passing of irrelevant data. It's not an easy job. You need to write code to do all that, in a way that integrates with the way the engine's networking functions work, and then spend time debugging the myriad of weird and wonderful emergent behaviours that arise in distributed systems (things not getting passed around, too many things being passed, scalability and performance, duplicated data, split brain, race conditions etc. etc.)
Source: I'm a software engineer who builds distributed systems (not games, but ones that do cool science with big, dangerous moving parts that can kill people if you write crap code).
This links into broader issues about the game and its development that Derek has been talking about for the last two and a half years, but which many people seem unable to grasp. Yes, progress is being made. New features are being implemented. Bugs are being fixed. Promises are being delivered on. But progress is so slow that the game, as promised, can never be made in a reasonable period of time. Yes, maybe given another ten years and another hundred million dollars, but it looks doubtful they're going to get either the time or the money, as they're pissing off more and more backers with constant glacial progress, lack of delivery on promises and endless appeals for more time and money.
So, going back to the server meshing, it's technically possible but they're never going to finish it because they'll have run out of time and money before they do.
You find parallels in a lot of the other questionable tech products that are heavily promoted and crowdfunded, but fail before or after coming to market - the product is based on sound technical principles which are within the realm of physical possibility, but it's simply not possible to create the product due to engineering challenges, the product doesn't make economic sense or it's implemented so badly that nobody wants it. Arguably Star Citizen is all three. Possible to build but implausible to engineer (at least with the currently expanded scope), not economically viable (as the niche market isn't big enough to provide the funds required to realise the scope), and badly implemented (full of annoying bugs and unnecessarily autistic gameplay mechanics, and what they have managed to build has been done inefficiently due to Chris Roberts' leadership style).
I don't know why on Earth people want to make Derek out as the bad guy in all this. Quite the opposite - he's clearly a talented developer with a deep sense of commitment to the space genre, and indie game development in general, and he's despairing at what he sees - a development process that more than likely will disappoint everyone who backed it, if it's not a downright failure, doing serious harm to the genre, indie development and crowdfunding of games for years to come. I'm reading posts even now where people are looking at the state of "Alpha 3.0", as little as it is after several years of development, and saying "Whelp, that was a total rubbish fire. I'm definitely not crowdfunding another indie game again".
It's a total disaster and my hat is off to Derek that he sounded the alarm bells so long ago now. He was right, and I think has already been proven so even prior to the eventual failure of the development (the ELE).
Post by: helimoth on January 02, 2018, 03:44:06 AM
(https://i.gyazo.com/232185297cd0cb40b37a6ec9dcbfffee.png)
Above screenshot is part of the sc 'lore' explaining the collapse of the SynthWorld project but I think it sounds eerily similar to how another project might be described at its demise.
Post by: Kyrt on January 02, 2018, 04:17:53 AM
Live stream talking about have massive server meshes to accommodate 1000 people. So I grabbed that and put into to google and got this thread.
I have grasped a few things about game development reading and researching. The only thing in this thread I have put my hands on is VM and used extensively. I have built cluster systems using MS and ONtap but not sure if these are similar to game servers.
https://robertsspaceindustries.com/spectrum/community/SC/forum/50259/thread/how-many-people-can-be-in-an-instance/198078
If anyone can answer or provide details on what Clive is proposing is possible? Can server meshes and handle 1000 players? A person name Valaska seems to have some knowledge and greatly disagrees.
Thank you
It depends on a number of factors.
There is work the server does, there is work the client does and there is the network which passes information between them.
The server meshing Clive Johnson is talking about is simply saying that the server workload for an instance will be shared by a number of servers, which in turn will be created as server requirements dictate. Each server will be responsible for a certain region within the instance...a zone...and interaction between the zones will be possible because servers talk to each other.
Think Warcraft. An instance would be a continent...say Kalimdor. A zone would be a zone. If you are in Ashenvale, you can still see and interact with people in the Barrens even though you are managed by different servers.
The network part is where servers talk to clients. The aim here is to streamline and manage the data so that items of interest are updated with more detail and more often. Again, with Warcraft, if you are in Silithus you can't see the two characters in Ashenvale or the Barrens so the servers should cull that data and not send it to you. There is no point wasting bandwidth or CPU cycles with data that is of no use.
And the client uses that data to render and display and update the position and status of every entity your avatar can see, plus other tasks.
For 1000 players in an instance.....
Those thousand players have to connect to the Star Citizen data cloud and be assigned to the sane instance. Each will be assigned to a zone controlled by a server. As they get closer together, more servers will be created to handle the increased workload due to the increase in potential interactions between these entities. There is an overhead associated with this as the servers will also need to talk with and interact with each other and there is a limit based on physical servers numbers and location.
Can the servers handle 1000 players in an instance? Given enough hardware capacity and a system designed to handle such a load? Yes.
The network? There are limits here that are physical. If the data centre has a 1 gig link, you can't create a virtual datastream when it fills up. The servers need to cull the data to an extent the the data link into your PC can handle it.
1000 players in an instance sounds like a lot...and it is. But those 1000 players may be in 50 ships, each of which is its own zone so those 1000 players may translate down to the data for a mere handful of entities that your PC needs to know about.
And if the data is culled properly, then the client doesn't have to do a lot of work to portray them.
So......you'll note that 1000 players in an instance doesn't translate into 1000 player mega combat fests.
More...while this is highly simplified...it should be clear that what CIG are aiming for is TECHNICALLY possible and certainly feasible...partly because they are a little vague on what they mean by "instance"...but requires a great deal of planning and design that can't really be tacked on.
And that's something I don't see much sign of from CIG.
Post by: StanTheMan on January 02, 2018, 04:56:11 AM
You wouldnt back someone that cant get a bike to work to get you to Mars.
So far after 170 mil and all these years CIG hasnt got the bike to work and he is a monumental shameless liar..
Moreover whilst it might be technically possible no one else has done it and plenty have been in the business of developing MMOs with far more success than Croberts..d
Post by: dsmart on January 02, 2018, 06:48:55 AM
Happy new years everyone.
I'm not sure if this is the correct thread for this or not. This popup up in suggestions:
Live stream talking about have massive server meshes to accommodate 1000 people. So I grabbed that and put into to google and got this thread.
I have grasped a few things about game development reading and researching. The only thing in this thread I have put my hands on is VM and used extensively. I have built cluster systems using MS and ONtap but not sure if these are similar to game servers.
https://robertsspaceindustries.com/spectrum/community/SC/forum/50259/thread/how-many-people-can-be-in-an-instance/198078
If anyone can answer or provide details on what Clive is proposing is possible? Can server meshes and handle 1000 players? A person name Valaska seems to have some knowledge and greatly disagrees.
Thank you
It's bullshit. Move on.
Post by: dsmart on January 02, 2018, 07:01:26 AM
I don't know why on Earth people want to make Derek out as the bad guy in all this. Quite the opposite - he's clearly a talented developer with a deep sense of commitment to the space genre, and indie game development in general, and he's despairing at what he sees - a development process that more than likely will disappoint everyone who backed it, if it's not a downright failure, doing serious harm to the genre, indie development and crowdfunding of games for years to come. I'm reading posts even now where people are looking at the state of "Alpha 3.0", as little as it is after several years of development, and saying "Whelp, that was a total rubbish fire. I'm definitely not crowdfunding another indie game again".
It's a total disaster and my hat is off to Derek that he sounded the alarm bells so long ago now. He was right, and I think has already been proven so even prior to the eventual failure of the development (the ELE).
Welcome to the forum, n00b! That post is one helluva first impression; especially since around here we just tend to shitpost for lols :lol:
In all seriousness though, you hit all the key points of this farce - and you didn't even have to write a dozen multi-page blogs to get those points across.
It's so hilarious to me when I look back at July 2015 where I said they couldn't build it without a capable team, capable engine, and not less than $150M. Sure, anything is possible given time and money. Then they blew past $175M (what they claim publicly) + loans, investor money etc - and entering year 7, they don't even have 18% of the game finished. The 3.0 release alone is proof that without the tech, they're going to be throwing money at a problem they can't solve. As they say, you can't squeeze water from stone, but that's basically where they are now. Currently, 3.0 has over 5K bugs, including the 3K that was there since the 2.6.3 release in April 2017. And they have those to contend with, make even more complex by the addition of other key systems that aren't even IN the game engine tech yet.
It's hilarious to me that backers are still talking about server meshes with 1000+ clients, when even RSI/CIG have stopped talking about it for over a year. Which means it's just not happening. And I don't expect it to even appear in the new dev schedules, since that item has never even appeared in ANY of the dev schedules.
My feeling is that they know they've hit a wall, and they also know that the best they're gonna get is to improve on the 50 client instance experience, and also quite possibly go to a player hosted instance model as I suggested here (http://dereksmart.com/forums/reply/6078/).
Post by: jwh1701 on January 02, 2018, 07:47:09 AM
Matriarch, Kyrt, StanTheMan, dsmart wanted to thank everyone on the comments. Another reason I asked a well is concerning I game I have been playing for years. Its called defiance, since its original inception it has been plagued with disconnects, rubber banding, inability to see other players when you go over 25 in one area. People have been asking them for years to fix these issues. The devs call the instances shards on the forums, the majority of the time when you get more than 25 in an event all the players disappear. This is just fps game and it has many problems. I keep wondering how from a dev stand point can cig truly take crytek engine to the unprecedented level of promises that have been made. Not to give to much away but poor engineering in Ireland led to a real headache for myself and and very large company. We way behind on metrics and after the 23 iteration of the server's motherboard not including that looked like a cob web with the all the additional hand soldier connects the project was deemed a failure. The true cost was in lost time and replacing thousands of boards in each server 23 times. The company had plenty of money so that was not an issue, but 8 months behind the release date they shuttered the entire Ireland engineering offices. I wonder looking over the releases of SC and lack of progress to the 6 million stretch goals have they boxed themselves into a corner. Based on Derek's and everyone that contributed to my question it seems very likely. If this is a reality concerning the crytek engine I canot image what they could do to comeback.
Post by: dsmart on January 02, 2018, 07:53:23 AM
Post by: jwh1701 on January 02, 2018, 07:54:25 AM
from https://www.robertsspaceindustries.com/comm-link/transmission/12790-4-Million-New-System-New-Ship-New-Goals
(https://i.gyazo.com/232185297cd0cb40b37a6ec9dcbfffee.png)
Above screenshot is part of the sc 'lore' explaining the collapse of the SynthWorld project but I think it sounds eerily similar to how another project might be described at its demise.
I love mods and a lot of my games I purchase are based on can it support mods from Nexus. I have always wondered how can SC with the online play and enormous physics the claim to be doing support and function with player introduced mods do matter how small they maybe?
Post by: jwh1701 on January 02, 2018, 09:04:10 AM
Bringing up all the red flags concerning they were ding a 64 bit engine to 64 positioning. I always thought that if they were heavily modifying the engine there is no way they would be able to merge into ly in a couple of days. How sad for so many backers that still believe in CIG, seems they have squandered millions on Star engine including all man hours wasted by horrific management choices from the onset.
Post by: Flashwit on January 02, 2018, 10:03:25 AM
First time it crashed as soon as I hit the key to get out of the wankpod.
Second time it just stayed at a black screen and I didn't even get to load into the game.
Third time was success! FPS was ranging in the 20s in Port Olisar according to nvidia's FPS counter but I did encounter only one other person while I was there.
As someone who hasn't actually played the game in years, my first impression is that it's extremely user unfriendly. It took me 5 minutes just to find out where the terminal was to spawn a ship. I then fucked about in the MobiGlass for a bit to see what was in there. It went okay, but that is definitely not a great UI. Anyway, I selected some mission about getting some crap from a Starfarer (?) wreck and thus began my slog to get to the fucking thing.
It is a gigantic pain in the ass if your path is blocked by a planet or something because the non quantum engines are SO slow. After finally getting out of Crusaders shadow enough to jump to a moon near the wreck, I then had to spent many minutes more skimming over the moon at full afterburner until I could get a line to the beacon near the wreck. After my spaceman had stopped flipping out enough to grab a crate from the wreck (may or may not have been the thing I was actually there for, there was no indication) I was promptly exploded by someone else while trying to wrangle the crate into the 'cargo' area of my Aurora.
All in all, not what I would call an exhilarating experience.
Post by: jwh1701 on January 02, 2018, 10:55:29 AM
By the way, I did actually fire up 3.0 over the break.
First time it crashed as soon as I hit the key to get out of the wankpod.
Second time it just stayed at a black screen and I didn't even get to load into the game.
Third time was success! FPS was ranging in the 20s in Port Olisar according to nvidia's FPS counter but I did encounter only one other person while I was there.
As someone who hasn't actually played the game in years, my first impression is that it's extremely user unfriendly. It took me 5 minutes just to find out where the terminal was to spawn a ship. I then fucked about in the MobiGlass for a bit to see what was in there. It went okay, but that is definitely not a great UI. Anyway, I selected some mission about getting some crap from a Starfarer (?) wreck and thus began my slog to get to the fucking thing.
It is a gigantic pain in the ass if your path is blocked by a planet or something because the non quantum engines are SO slow. After finally getting out of Crusaders shadow enough to jump to a moon near the wreck, I then had to spent many minutes more skimming over the moon at full afterburner until I could get a line to the beacon near the wreck. After my spaceman had stopped flipping out enough to grab a crate from the wreck (may or may not have been the thing I was actually there for, there was no indication) I was promptly exploded by someone else while trying to wrangle the crate into the 'cargo' area of my Aurora.
All in all, not what I would call an exhilarating experience.
Luckily in Elite horizons this is pretty easy to figure and its not to slow to make one jump.
"It is a gigantic pain in the ass if your path is blocked by a planet or something because the non quantum engines are SO slow."
Also when planetary landings were first introduced in EH I ran into a similar mechanic till I got the hang knowing were the base was located.
Post by: dsmart on January 02, 2018, 11:45:09 AM
- You can jump to a planet from anywhere at anytime
- If you want a precise location, use the Tacops orbital map, set a waypoint, jump - and the ships's AI will take you straight to that wp
- If you a random location, just jump to the planet
You can see it all in action in the 6hr stream I did back in Sept
Post by: ecg on January 02, 2018, 06:39:12 PM
I solved those problems decades ago in Battlecruiser 3000AD,
Damn, I miss Battlecruiser 3000AD
Post by: Kyrt on January 02, 2018, 07:03:47 PM
If this is a reality concerning the crytek engine I canot image what they could do to comeback.
Several possibilities sprung to mind...
throw money at the problem. Given enough time, and money, they may be able to eventually fix the issues.
Fire Chris Roberts and put a competent manager in charge
Take some time off "development" and work on patching up the engine
Throw band aid fixes at the issues and hope they work well enough to cover over the cracks and prop up the engine.
Ask for the backers support and understanding while they take a couple of years to write a custom engine which CAN handle the game
I daresay that CIG will be able to improve upon the performance when they get back after the holiday, maybe even enough to allow some semblance of testing, but when even CIG devs are stating the engine is operating beyond its limits, you have to figure its only a matter of time before the whole thing breaks. If not now, then the next time there is a major patch or the time after that. There is only so much you can do to prop up a failing engine before all those band aids come back to haunt you.
Given what Clive Johnson has stated, it seems apparent CIG need to stop work on the game and do some serious work with the engine. That doesn't seem to likely so unless CIG get really lucky, it seems doubtful their band aid fixes will do more than mitigate the problems. Still, they might hold out for a year or two.
Post by: Meowz on January 02, 2018, 07:50:19 PM
from https://www.robertsspaceindustries.com/comm-link/transmission/12790-4-Million-New-System-New-Ship-New-Goals
(https://i.gyazo.com/232185297cd0cb40b37a6ec9dcbfffee.png)
Above screenshot is part of the sc 'lore' explaining the collapse of the SynthWorld project but I think it sounds eerily similar to how another project might be described at its demise.
Wouldn't surprise me if this is a real life jab at CR and CIG by the writers. They are natorious for sneeking in hidden meanings, easter eggs and other quips that are easily missed by QA, but caught by the community. WoW has a ton of them.
Post by: David-2 on January 02, 2018, 08:40:27 PM
... a real life jab at CR and CIG by the writers.
Can't see why the writers would bite the hand that feeds them ... they've got to have the easiest job at CIG of all. Writing "lore" and "backstory" with no responsibility whatsoever for designing/implementing/debugging/testing/selling/promoting - or doing anything at all worth doing, actually.
(I mean consider: The current state of affairs represents 5-6 years of development - the "lore" to get to this point represents what? Less than a man-month or two of effort, to be generous? Ok, double that, call it four man-months. Everything else they've written past this point in the past 5 years is yet-to-be-implemented scribbling. Especially since apparently lore has nothing to do with gameplay mechanics, apparently the responsibility of someone else - not yet hired ...!)
Post by: Flashwit on January 03, 2018, 09:52:53 AM
The main issue being that development is so slow that any more lore at this point is like farting into the wind. The writers could describe all kinds of cool people and locations but what's the point? It's been 6 years and all we've got is one half-assed corporate star system which doesn't present much of interest. I think there's like 2 named NPCs currently? There's already a mountain of lore and history that might as well have not even been written.
Post by: dsmart on January 05, 2018, 04:04:06 PM
https://robertsspaceindustries.com/Schedule-report-05012018
Post by: Spunky Munkee on January 05, 2018, 05:10:54 PM
Post by: DemonInvestor on January 05, 2018, 06:37:29 PM
New schedule report is up. 3.1 coming end of March. :lol:
https://robertsspaceindustries.com/Schedule-report-05012018
What economy are they're talking about?
They're not talking like ingame goods, right? I mean so far there doesn't seem to be much to really balance stuff?
:vince: Object Container Streaming already in September, damn that speed is amazin'!
No but honestly, didn't they like say it would be in 3.0 ?
Post by: StanTheMan on January 05, 2018, 08:29:49 PM
Quote
Our new delivery schedule is based on dates rather than features and allows for more flexibility in development.http://mailchi.mp/cloudimperiumgames/procedural-cities-and-the-anniversary-special-schedule-140721?e=bd96992ea1 (http://mailchi.mp/cloudimperiumgames/procedural-cities-and-the-anniversary-special-schedule-140721?e=bd96992ea1)
With the release of Alpha 3.1 planned for late March, our aim is to deliver new releases quarterly, going forward. We have a lot of content and enhancements planned to roll out this year, so be sure to check out our Production Update for more details.
Post by: krylite on January 06, 2018, 12:40:09 AM
New schedule report is up. 3.1 coming end of March. :lol:
https://robertsspaceindustries.com/Schedule-report-05012018
I just read it and the bs spouted in that note was nauseating. How much longer can they keep this farce going? CodIW and ME: Andromeda, even the updated NMS, have already made whatever SC ends up being obsolete and irrelevant. Anyone still "backing" CIG-arrets(arrests) is just feeding CR and his gang's cashcow flow. Just let it die already. The next "bdsse" should be by Frontier (upgraded ED) or some other entity with a modicum of integrity.
Post by: Backer42 on January 06, 2018, 01:46:42 AM
I just read it and the bs spouted in that note was nauseating. How much longer can they keep this farce going? CodIW and ME: Andromeda, even the updated NMS, have already made whatever SC ends up being obsolete and irrelevant. Anyone still "backing" CIG-arrets(arrests) is just feeding CR and his gang's cashcow flow. Just let it die already. The next "bdsse" should be by Frontier (upgraded ED) or some other entity with a modicum of integrity.
X4 might wipe the floor with Mini-PU this year. Egosoft is known for questionable software quality on release day, but they are quicker than CIG in fixing it up.
Did you know that CIG completely removed Area 18 from Pre-Alpha 3.0?
Post by: Flashwit on January 06, 2018, 11:36:09 AM
Quote
3.1 is about enhancing performance and polishing the gameplay systems and UI, including ships, system traversal, a large balance pass of our economy, and improving AI for spaceflight and combat.
Intriguing, I didn't know they had any gameplay systems to polish.
Also, big lol at the fact that the only content expansion for an entire year is going to be expanding Stanton.
Post by: jwh1701 on January 06, 2018, 12:02:47 PM
New schedule report is up. 3.1 coming end of March. :lol:
https://robertsspaceindustries.com/Schedule-report-05012018
My questions about this schedule.
Although 3.1 is our focus for late March, several teams will also be working on our long-term goals for this year, in which we plan to deliver the vast majority of systems and mechanics so players have a variety of options to lose themselves in the ‘Verse.
This reads to me that we will see 100 plus star systems will be in SC before the end of 2018? When I see systems and loose themselves I think star systems? Maybe systems are more game mechanics, but I do not know I would loose myself in that.
Our next delivery in late September will introduce another major long-term tech goal: Object Container Streaming. This technology will allow us to start expanding the Stanton system with additional destinations, while managing our memory usage much better. In this delivery, we would also like to start introducing the mechanics of how you stake and file land claims and the gameplay that comes with this feature. This release will also continue to consolidate and polish all the new features in the past milestone.
This seems counter to the first question I have about delivering vast systems. If they need the new container system to just expand station assets how will the be able to add vast majority of systems if this does means planets, moons, etc?
Post by: Kyrt on January 06, 2018, 03:03:12 PM
This reads to me that we will see 100 plus star systems will be in SC before the end of 2018? When I see systems and loose themselves I think star systems? Maybe systems are more game mechanics, but I do not know I would loose myself in that.
"3.1 is about enhancing performance and polishing the gameplay systems"
It isn't much but take what you can ;)
That should answer your second question as well
If you need it more basic....
3.1 will add bug fixes and optimisations
3.2 will add some basic gameplay elements and mechanics
3.3 will expand the Stanton system
3.4 will expand the Stanton system
And yes...that should bring us to where 3.0 was expected to be when it released....going by last years timetable anyway.
Post by: jwh1701 on January 06, 2018, 04:16:31 PM
Thank you for the response I saw others had posted about how little was planned 2018, I though I must be misunderstanding. If the base tech is there and now and this is all that is planned for 2018 what in the world are 450+ people doing? How can they fathom to keep afloat at this pace and keep people interested?
"3.1 is about enhancing performance and polishing the gameplay systems"
It isn't much but take what you can ;)
That should answer your second question as well
If you need it more basic....
3.1 will add bug fixes and optimisations
3.2 will add some basic gameplay elements and mechanics
3.3 will expand the Stanton system
3.4 will expand the Stanton system
And yes...that should bring us to where 3.0 was expected to be when it released....going by last years timetable anyway.
Post by: Aya Reiko on January 06, 2018, 11:38:54 PM
If CiG lives long enough, that is.
Post by: Kyrt on January 07, 2018, 02:32:49 AM
So basically, v3.X is adding the shit into the techdemo they promised would be in v3.0. So expect that to be done probably sometime around 2020 or thereabouts.
If CiG lives long enough, that is.
I'm sure they'll add a bit more than that, but Stanton fleshed out was originally 3.0, the netcode was originally 3.0, 3.0 was supposed to be relatively bug free with a suitable performance...
Read into it what you may
Post by: krylite on January 07, 2018, 05:02:47 AM
misunderstanding. If the base tech is there and now and this is all that is planned for 2018 what in the world are 450+ people doing? How can they fathom to keep afloat at this pace and keep people interested?
I took "systems" meaning their supposed nonsense immersive "systems" in "lose yourself"-gameplay such as their aquatic tanks, visible toilets, basically squealing for "more time"(forever) to keep their ponzi going while trying to make their techdemo palatable for more brainwashed whalers to keep funding. Rather than anything to do with extra star systems outside of 'Stanton'. How laughable they used the words "lose yourself". Imagine if Mack, the WAB guy read those "words..words. of the developer", lol. @ "lose yourself"! dingDing! The "development" is such a farce that the writer of that bs note is in "pants on fire" mode or halfway drunk already.
Well, I would expect much of their 450+ somebodies to keep making timecostly but disparate textures for their vaporware ships, now adding land grants. Get ready for "land beacons" with intricate strobing , rotating details like a police siren or Lynch's Dune "thumper"-sticks (more scripted 2.6.3'ish "Dune ripoff sandworm events") And oh yes, the "tanks" as they try to mesh in another techdemo Starshitizen "galaxy of tanks" game. (world of tanks fad they are glomming on to at the moment in their desperate reaching for anything anywhere to continue to hook their funding boneheaded whalers).
Post by: jwh1701 on January 07, 2018, 08:11:43 AM
WAB is awesome I'm glad the he's in a better position to do more reviews. I find him to be very honest, funny and passionate when he does them. As I dune fan read all the books and the sand worm demo was very nostalgic to watch. To be honest I have always wondered why they are taking any dev time to implement so many small features. Why would they do so when the engine / modules are not up to promised game levels. If the qoute below is true then what is holding them up? I speculate they knew the lawsuit was coming and have spent they last year not on engine dev but merging modules to ly and trying to remove all of the cyrtek code.
Qoute:
(I think it took us a day or so of two engineers on the engine team). What runs Star Citizen and Squadron 42 is our heavily modified version of the engine which we have dubbed StarEngine, just now our foundation is Lumberyard not CryEngine.
https://www.extremetech.com/extreme/241674-star-citizen-developer-chris-roberts-clarifies-engine-change-promises-move-amazons-lumberyard-wont-delay-game
I wonderand they are not seeming to move forward as they are spending a bunch to now remove all the Crytek code and trying to merge it all to ly.
I took "systems" meaning their supposed nonsense immersive "systems" in "lose yourself"-gameplay such as their aquatic tanks, visible toilets, basically squealing for "more time"(forever) to keep their ponzi going while trying to make their techdemo palatable for more brainwashed whalers to keep funding. Rather than anything to do with extra star systems outside of 'Stanton'. How laughable they used the words "lose yourself". Imagine if Mack, the WAB guy read those "words..words. of the developer", lol. @ "lose yourself"! dingDing! The "development" is such a farce that the writer of that bs note is in "pants on fire" mode or halfway drunk already.
Well, I would expect much of their 450+ somebodies to keep making timecostly but disparate textures for their vaporware ships, now adding land grants. Get ready for "land beacons" with intricate strobing , rotating details like a police siren or Lynch's Dune "thumper"-sticks (more scripted 2.6.3'ish "Dune ripoff sandworm events") And oh yes, the "tanks" as they try to mesh in another techdemo Starshitizen "galaxy of tanks" game. (world of tanks fad they are glomming on to at the moment in their desperate reaching for anything anywhere to continue to hook their funding boneheaded whalers).
Post by: N0mad on January 11, 2018, 01:45:47 PM
It's all interviews, I mean ALL of it. It's so dull, I started skipping bits. Then just got bored.
Please tell me if there's something interesting in here because I, sure as hell, am not watching it all.
Once again, it's a game Dev log, where they don't actually show the game (maybe for legal reasons?)!
Post by: jwh1701 on January 11, 2018, 02:33:20 PM
ATV is back for the new year:
I can see why you got bored the first 28 mins were rough for me a lot talking but not much being said.
volumes/tags, gameplay at 29:00 min lol JK, including how great they worked on polishing 3.0 ptu,
32:00 claimed they were improving gameplay on 3.0 while people where playing
37:34 talks about inderditcions, elite enginner flashback,
41:00 server degradation monitoring
50:17 showing skype screenshots guys working 3:00 am in morning on Christmas
The fixes all my fears about SC.
52:00 data/persistance cache causing the cargo losses etc.
Thought this was interesting.
55:37 Sandi pushing tanks
To be honest watching SC employees talk they do seem genuine but I have always a hard time in discerning this in people. When I watching Sandi and Chris I do not have the same feeling though. They did show some game play near the end, running down corridor, fly a ship for only a few seconds.
Post by: N0mad on January 11, 2018, 03:12:34 PM
I guess they didn't have much to talk about having just come back from their holidays.
Still, quarterly releases should be interesting - although I can't actually see them releasing anything significant every quarter. My guess is that they'll spend the next 6 months fixing what's already available in 3.0.
I can't see them fixing the frame rate issues any time soon since that seems to be a problem at the very core of the engine and probably can't be fixed without breaking, or at least rewriting, lots of other code.
Still, should be interesting to see if they can actually add some real gameplay this year (if the company lasts that long).
Post by: jwh1701 on January 11, 2018, 04:15:17 PM
Been going back and forth with people on the new Montoya video, no matter what you say the keep saying the same thing over and over. Collectively "we don't care how long it takes, there are no red flags"
Kudos to Montoya, so far as he's not deleting opposing view points.
Thanks for doing that.
I guess they didn't have much to talk about having just come back from their holidays.
Still, quarterly releases should be interesting - although I can't actually see them releasing anything significant every quarter. My guess is that they'll spend the next 6 months fixing what's already available in 3.0.
I can't see them fixing the frame rate issues any time soon since that seems to be a problem at the very core of the engine and probably can't be fixed without breaking, or at least rewriting, lots of other code.
Still, should be interesting to see if they can actually add some real gameplay this year (if the company lasts that long).
Post by: ewhac on January 11, 2018, 06:09:31 PM
I finally let 3.0 on to my machine and fiddled around with it for about 20 minutes. My system is merely a 6-core i7 running at 4GHz with 16GiB RAM and an NVIDIA GTX-970 (the only "weak" part of the rig). This machine happily tears through just about every game I've thrown at it.
...And boy is this thing choppy. Just walking around Olisar has the disk thrashing it's brains out, presumably as it's loading assets. I didn't even bother to fly my ship; I walked around Olisar, then EVAed from one half of Olisar to the other.
It seems they've spent all their time polishing the visuals -- everything does look rather more impressive. There was an interesting "sheen" on the glass of the space ships that wasn't there before. A nice detail, but utterly insignificant to game play.
You're started with 5000 aUAE. Available missions don't seem to offer more than 200 aUAE or so, which feels grind-tastic.
Previously, when you looked at something in one of the stores, a description of the item would appear. Now all you see is an invented brand name and a price. "Um, what is this, and what does it do?" are kind of important questions when looking at armor, space suits, and spaceship parts. Shopkeepers repeat the same lines of monologue far too often.
The clothing store is still a complete waste of time and space.
Saw a couple of NPCs stuck behind planters, chairs, and other random bits of geometry.
Certainly there has been an attempt to make things more "realistic." Your EVA suit now has a limited O2 supply. You can become exhausted by running everywhere, depleting your O2 supply more quickly. Definitely realistic. Also: No damned fun.
I actually became comfortable flying the Aurora ES around in the previous release. But I'm anxious they've changed all the flight controls and dynamics, so I'm afraid to take my ship out for a spin.
All in all, there's still no "there" there. It feels like a dying amusement park -- the only reason anyone is there is out of sheer habit.
Post by: dsmart on January 11, 2018, 07:39:10 PM
Post by: Motto on January 12, 2018, 12:34:21 AM
Post by: Wipeout on January 12, 2018, 02:20:17 AM
I probably don't have anything to say that hasn't already been said multiple times here and elsewhere.
I finally let 3.0 on to my machine and fiddled around with it for about 20 minutes. My system is merely a 6-core i7 running at 4GHz with 16GiB RAM and an NVIDIA GTX-970 (the only "weak" part of the rig). This machine happily tears through just about every game I've thrown at it.
...And boy is this thing choppy. Just walking around Olisar has the disk thrashing it's brains out, presumably as it's loading assets. I didn't even bother to fly my ship; I walked around Olisar, then EVAed from one half of Olisar to the other.
It seems they've spent all their time polishing the visuals -- everything does look rather more impressive. There was an interesting "sheen" on the glass of the space ships that wasn't there before. A nice detail, but utterly insignificant to game play.
You're started with 5000 aUAE. Available missions don't seem to offer more than 200 aUAE or so, which feels grind-tastic.
Previously, when you looked at something in one of the stores, a description of the item would appear. Now all you see is an invented brand name and a price. "Um, what is this, and what does it do?" are kind of important questions when looking at armor, space suits, and spaceship parts. Shopkeepers repeat the same lines of monologue far too often.
The clothing store is still a complete waste of time and space.
Saw a couple of NPCs stuck behind planters, chairs, and other random bits of geometry.
Certainly there has been an attempt to make things more "realistic." Your EVA suit now has a limited O2 supply. You can become exhausted by running everywhere, depleting your O2 supply more quickly. Definitely realistic. Also: No damned fun.
I actually became comfortable flying the Aurora ES around in the previous release. But I'm anxious they've changed all the flight controls and dynamics, so I'm afraid to take my ship out for a spin.
All in all, there's still no "there" there. It feels like a dying amusement park -- the only reason anyone is there is out of sheer habit.
I just have the basic package, Mustang ship. I have not even been able to get the game to not crash, or not be a slide show. So I quit trying, hopefully their next update in 3 months will solve my issue.
I have an i7-4770k, 32GB memory, GTX 1070 FE, so my PC is plenty capable for the game.
I really hate how they are bring in to much "reality" into the game. It could make it tedious and not really fun. Hopefully over time with enough feedback they decide to get rid of it.
Post by: Backer42 on January 12, 2018, 08:17:18 AM
I actually became comfortable flying the Aurora ES around in the previous release. But I'm anxious they've changed all the flight controls and dynamics, so I'm afraid to take my ship out for a spin.There was a time before they implemented insurance mechanics, when bugs randomly exploding your ship were without consequence. That was the right time to ask for a refund. Now you accepted the new ToS.
Post by: ewhac on January 12, 2018, 05:17:15 PM
I just have the basic package, Mustang ship. I have not even been able to get the game to not crash, or not be a slide show. So I quit trying, hopefully their next update in 3 months will solve my issue.
One of the ways I wasted time in the previous release was to exit Olisar, EVA up to the ring between the two struts, and just watch the "traffic" -- people trying to take off, people trying to land, people zooming through the rings at full throttle, people ramming Olisar and other ships (sometimes even accidentally), etc. Sometimes a ship would be adrift near the station, so I'd EVA over, get inside, and land the thing (because I was bored and it was more interesting than zapping over to yet another comm relay and pressing CTRL-ALT-DEL). However, this only worked about 50% of the time, since getting the program to let me sit in the pilot's chair was a crapshoot, especially if the ship was tumbling too rapidly.
There was a time before they implemented insurance mechanics, when bugs randomly exploding your ship were without consequence. That was the right time to ask for a refund. Now you accepted the new ToS.
To avoid going crazy, the way I look at it is that, dollar-wise, I bought a triple-A game and ended up not really liking it. Oh well.
Post by: Wipeout on January 12, 2018, 08:03:24 PM
Post by: Wipeout on January 14, 2018, 01:56:33 PM
Why did they release this when they did? That was a bad move.
Post by: dsmart on January 14, 2018, 02:09:58 PM
Well that didn't last long. Finally got to play it this weekend and it is back to being slide show and crashing.
Why did they release this when they did? That was a bad move.
Maybe update your drivers again? :thumbsup:
Post by: Spunky Munkee on January 14, 2018, 06:30:11 PM
People continue to take CIG's rancid bait. Roberts keeps raking in his bloated salary regardless of his failure to create a GAME.
Post by: dsmart on January 15, 2018, 05:45:55 AM
Raed this shit. They're so fucked. :lol: :lol:
Quote
Devtalk Podcast Ep01 with Matt Sherman, Tech Designer on Star Citizen
https://soundcloud.com/user-321126684/devtalk-podcast-ep-01-matt-sherman (https://soundcloud.com/user-321126684/devtalk-podcast-ep-01-matt-sherman)
@14:50
Q:
You have a core idea and then as you develop it some more ideas come out, how do you handle tertiary ideas from possibly exanding that core gameplay? How do you control or gauge that as a technical designer?
Matt Sherman:
Ahh... I... in... in part, like... like there's... earlier checks and balances I had mentioned where it's having... knowing... whatever I'm thinking of, I'm gonna have to get it gut checked by damn well everyone. Um... and that sort of creates a good... ah... a good padding around those ideas where it's going to be shot to hell... you know it's gonna be shot to hell as you're submitting it, but that's also (mumble) you... you... make something where it's like shot at with criticisms or concerns or just basic gut checks from other people and you know you've started reinforcing and creating a design on something where fewer and fewer of those shots actually hit the mark, ah, where... you can be like, 'oh no!', you're... you're gonna say that, but... this is already in place to counterbalance that or... these structures are here to, ah... provide those certain gameplay elements, ah... whatever the scenario is for it
Q:
I feel like you don't just create a design doc. There's got to be some sort of inspiration that you receive. Do you have any notable source of inspiration?
Matt Sherman
Uh... for a lot of that stuff, eh... it would go back to just some of the different games that I've played or the styles of games that I've played... ahh... probably one of the biggest ones I'd still say is like System Shock, ah... and especially now because the studio that is sort of heading the idea that... um... had... they did an enhanced edition about a year ago... and when they released it it's like, 'oh you get it with both the classic edition with the enhanced controls in the enhanced edition', and... especially now it's an amazing case study in...
...look at just what a key bind shift really does for a game, ah... cos their classic controls from 1994 were before WASD controls were a thing and it really showed like the game was very very cumbersome, it was still a very incredible game... like oh, here's a 6dof game, ah, the same year Doom II came out, um... it's got jumping, leaning, crouching, ducking through air vents, just homicidal AI... ah... amazing first person adventure elements to it at the... it... it's one of those things like... at the time... the control was fine enough for what it was, here's this really cool experience, you know the Ultima Underworld games were its predecessors aaaand... it's like, ok, I understand what they're doing and what the systems are, then when you fast forward 20 years it's like, 'wow, this is clunky, this is cumbersome, how was I faster as a kid and not minding this stuff', um... and that's why they're enhanced edition is like, 'oh hey! You know those modern control sensibilities we've picked up over the years? We've applied those to what the actual commands and actions are for those games', so there's a brand new keymap and one or two QoL things with like mouselook, um, and suddenly you know, this game can play as well as... ah... System Shock II, the Deus Ex games, all that kinda stuff, it still shows its age a little bit but... it... immediately became insanely playable.
@44:40
Q:
As a game dev and as an avid gamer, what is your take or your thoughts on the state of the game industry today?
Matt Sherman
Yeah. Um... it's definitely interesting because... it's like at that cusp of a lot of potential.... and you don't know how things are going to get realised and... if you'd also like start considering like the external socio-policital climates like, 'Ok! What... what can and can't we make still... what... you know... is there going to be... are there any challenges you know, into the future even, ah, what... known challenges or known things, it's like, ok, people haven't tried progressing THIS type of a gameplay model or THIS genre or whatever... um... sort of finding THOSE things and I think there's... there's enough of the... the industry still sort of doing THAT cos... even like a lot of the, you know, triple A games that will get lambasted for being, ah... sequel heavy or whatever the hell people wanna say... um... there's still that... that notion where... they're always pulling pieces of multiple different genres and they're still also trying to blend stuff together... CREATE... something different so it... they don't... they aren't always trying to make exactly the same... there is always that... that attempted something a little bit different, another layer of edition ah... kinda just one new major gameplay feature...
And I still think some of that gets lost because people don't always think back to just how far we had to go, ah, to get to that point where it's like, 'yes we've got these giant, GIANT ASS SANDBOXES right now, have you ever played ADVANCED DUNGEONS AND DRAGONS ON THE INTELLIVISION? Because you'll break your fucking skull in half trying to play through that if what you're acclimated to is...
There is that thing were you have to really step back all the way and see it's like... this is where we've really come from and how far we've gone and how big of incremental jumps we've made each step along that way
Post by: dsmart on January 15, 2018, 05:40:37 PM
Transcript courtesy of SomethingJones
Quote
Q:
How many land claim licenses will fit on a planet or moon?
Dave Haddock:
Uhm... that is a... very good question, uh... we have... when we were actually doing the um... sort of, the... the BUILD to the... um... the... the ANNIVERSARY SALE like that... there's a lot of conversations about like these LAND CLAIMS and stuff like that, and I... I remember, um... in one of the conversations talking with... with TONY, uh... that... apparently, based off of every single Star Citizen... uh... like... getting one of the big ESTATE pieces... uh, if every single one of them got one they still wouldn't be able to fill up a single planet.
1.9 million Star Citizens wouldn't be able to fill a single planet. That's the calculation.
Q:
What is modularity?
Matt Sherman:
So... yeah, like you said it definitely does have multiple interpretations, ah, the... the core is gonna come down to PLAYER FACING MODULARITY, that's gonna be the moment to moment choices anyone gets to make with... how is their ship kitted out, what are their components, weapons, all that good stuff, but then at the same time we've also got DEVELOPER FACING MODULARITY and that's a lot of the stuff for how are we actually going to be able to CREATE and ITERATE all of this CONTENT that's gonna populate the world of STAR CITIZEN, um... so... right now the biggest thing for PLAYER FACING MODULARITY is... is... really gonna be your COMPONENT OPTIONS, ah, it's definitely something we're looking to keep FLESHING OUT, I mean we've got, ah, you know... the ALTERNATE ROOM OPTIONS for the RETALIATOR, ah, looking at a number of different things for various ships but a lot of it does become more CASE BY CASE and... and... how... how... BIG of a WING can we get for... you know I know we saw modules planned for the CATERPILLAR cos that's its nice big segmented rooms...
BUT at the same time that MODULARITY doesn't mean it's just gonna be just LEGO, you know we're not just gonna be I'M JUST GONNA PICK THIS DESK UP AND MOVE IT AT A HALF METER OVER TO THE SIDE
So there's still gonna be some... some STRUCTURE, form to it, ah, ahm...
And... and we also have been recently showing off a lot more of the DEVELOPER SIDED MODULARITY, just a month or so ago when you (Lando) did your... the... ah.. urr... OUTPOST HAPPY HOUR with the UK team, that's a great example of DEVELOPER FACING MODULARITY because it's HEY SET UP THESE WALL PREFAB, set up these NODE PREFABS for, 'OK, this is these BED SET APPS for THIS manufacturer THIS style, ah... ah... the... PLANET DEMO that we showed, ah... ah... you know like the planet generation demo, ah... um... the building out of like the IDRIS and the JAVELIN videos that are about a month or so back where it's uh... hey, here's these AEGIS...GIANT... SHIP HALLWAY CHUNKS, so that's a lot of that DEVELOPER FACING MODULARITY where it's... it's how we're able to build a giant, you know, multi star system GAME, ah, without KILLING OURSELVES
Q:
The inner thought system and player interaction in general, is that it? Are we done?
Calix Reneau:
Yeah, as usual, as usual we're finished from the gate... no, that's, ah... so much of... of this is coming together still, um... we're... we're ITERATING ON IT and doing all kinds of things and doing a whole other ASPECT to it, basically, ah, the interaction system is really good for finding things in the world to click on and... and... interacting with them in bespoke ways, just... go out there and see what you get, um...
But it's not so great at things that don't really have a, you know, a logical place out in the world like, where would you click exactly to EXIT SEATS or to HOLSTER YOUR WEAPON or to do your EMOTE, so, ah, we have a little personal THOUGHT RADIAL WHEEL that comes up and gives you access to all that, you know I'm actually working on that now
Todd Papy:
Steve's on the beach drinking BEERS, ah, RELAXING, I'm... I'm in the office working, so...
Yeah it's basically I was here for a couple of days, they put me at Steve Bender's desk, I don't know why, it needs to be DOUSED and basically SANITIZED
Q:
I don't suppose you want to answer a question about dance emotes do you?
Todd Papy:
No
Q:
Tell us about 3.1, what are we looking at for 3.1?
Todd Papy:
Well... I think... haha... well, for us... uhm... we saw 3.0 and... and... as Erin stated and... and, um... there... basically we stated in development letter, that... you know, in order for us to move over to this, ah, DATE DRIVEN RELEASE, you know we needed to get 3.0 out the door.
But 3.0 going out the door there was a lot of stuff that we felt, um... WASN'T UP TO SNUFF and... and we needed to get optimisations better... ah... uhm... just because the overall frame rate, ah... then there were other, ah... I think USABILITY, ah, aspects that we felt we needed to improve... uhm... and even just on... player's understanding of what they can do and what they can't do, and... uhm... then even if you think about like the... the... ITEM 2.0 COMBAT VISOR SCREENS and those... those... those types of things were we worked really hard on that was... just... they didn't get to... the quality level that we all wanted them to get to, ah, so...
It's working towards and finalising a lot of the issues that we felt were, uhm.... should have been part of 3.0 but just, you know, kind of... kept on limping on and... the... the guys were working very hard... it just didn't come to be
Q:
The 300i, where is it, where's our rework? What's happening, when?
Eric Kieron Davies:
When. It's the production part of me that's why you get to ask the 'when' question, right? A lot of whens, ok... ah... ahm... THREE HUNDRED EYE! It's a GREAT question, ah, the REWORK is... I believe the last of our original FIVE PLEDGE SHIPS and from what I understand it's one of the most owned ships... so there's a few people interested in what's going on with the 300i, fair enough...
So, the 300i... I'm going to have SO much information for you, ah... is DEFINITELY ON OUR RADAR, it's definitely one that we wanna REWORK, it is on the AGENDA to work on as you'd expect, I can't give you more information of what the date is, I know you're asking for it, we're looking at 2018, we're looking at a lot of what the long term is for a lot of the SHIPS, being one of the last reworked ships we're DEFINITELY SUPER INTERESTED in actually getting that done and out from under us and getting it into everybody's hands so we can keep moving on with the NEW SHIPS that are coming up, I can't give you any more than that but it's DEFINITELY ON OUR RADAR...
Post by: David-2 on January 15, 2018, 05:49:27 PM
Oh, and I definitely need a THOUGHT RADIAL WHEEL in my life, boy would that simplify a lot of things. Talking to some of my (unfortunately) boring friends, you know, I could just pick the right thought from the THOUGHT RADIAL WHEEL and be done with it, you know? Just able to get on with other things while that thought was been expressed. Or just thought. Whatever.
Post by: DemonInvestor on January 15, 2018, 11:36:26 PM
'We just needed to get shit out and we knew it was shit' - really shows how the perception of kickstarted games having no pressure is off.
And another ship rework - in my uneducated (in terms of game development) mind this raises 2 thoughts.
1) Why rework a ship, when the basic systems to differentiate ship types are seemingly far from finished?
2) How many artists are currently really working on ships for this space-fighter simulation? So far most ships seem to be stuck in the pipeline, while they had 60 months for their 78 ships so far.
But then again - uneducated mind ... maybe it's all normal.
Post by: Aya Reiko on January 15, 2018, 11:46:32 PM
Wow the last two answers of the transcript are really painful to read.1- Because CRoberts is more concerned with the window dressing and appearances, whereas any dev worth their salt would concern themselves with building a solid foundation first.
'We just needed to get shit out and we knew it was shit' - really shows how the perception of kickstarted games having no pressure is off.
And another ship rework - in my uneducated (in terms of game development) mind this raises 2 thoughts.
1) Why rework a ship, when the basic systems to differentiate ship types are seemingly far from finished?
2) How many artists are currently really working on ships for this space-fighter simulation? So far most ships seem to be stuck in the pipeline, while they had 60 months for their 78 ships so far.
But then again - uneducated mind ... maybe it's all normal.
2- Probably because CRoberts wants constant re-writes and/or re-designs, so ultimately nothing of substance ever gets done.
Post by: justme on January 16, 2018, 05:24:20 AM
:lesnick:
Post by: Motto on January 16, 2018, 05:35:08 AM
Post by: dsmart on January 16, 2018, 05:56:03 AM
Quote
So if 1.9 million of the largest land claims fit on a single planet (which, incidentally, would represent $190 million of revenue, or more than CIG's entire claimed funding total to date):
1.9 million land claims at 64 km^2 (8 km x 8 km) comes out to at least a 3110 km planetary radius, assuming no packing losses from trying to fit plots onto a sphere -- maybe they can be arbitrarily shaped so that they'll all fit in, as long as they have the stated total area. I guess I am also assuming that land claims are not instanced, so that it is impossible to have multiple claims in the same physical location.
For comparison, Reddit (https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/comments/7kxnnl/anyone_know_how_big_30s_largest_moon_is_compared/dri1qj4/) says the following about current moon sizes in 3.0:QuoteIn game (PTU 3.0). Delamar has a 75km radius, Daymar has radius of 295km, Cellin has a radius of 260km and Yella has a radius of 313km. Diameter = 2r, Surface area = 4(PI)r2. You can verify this using the altitude gauge and the moons map marker at the center of the moon. These compared to Jupiters moons (Io-Daymar, Ganymede-Cellin, Europa-Yella) and (Asteroid Ceres-Delamar) are between 1/10th to 1/5th smaller in radius.
So CIG are promising planets that are 10-40 times the diameter of the current moons, or 100-1600 times the surface area. And here I thought the current moons already looked barren...
Post by: Spunky Munkee on January 16, 2018, 05:56:51 AM
1- Because CRoberts is more concerned with the window dressing and appearances, whereas any dev worth their salt would concern themselves with building a solid foundation first.
2- Probably because CRoberts wants constant re-writes and/or re-designs, so ultimately nothing of substance ever gets done.
While this is all true I think that Robbers is engaged in constant ship design is because he has little else to put in front of the Whales. He can keep the coffers full by having the staff labor on this busy work while he has his crack team of lepers trying to crack the code and make his crapfest run at more that 30fps (on a top spec PC). He is not selling a game anymore, he sells digital ships, land and tanks to fools. I guess he figures that as long as he has people"working on it" he cannot be called an out and out scammer, but merely a sorry incompetent boob who wasted countless millions on his pipe dream.
Post by: Flashwit on January 16, 2018, 09:45:09 AM
Thumbs up Chris!
Post by: Spunky Munkee on January 16, 2018, 02:32:20 PM
Post by: krylite on January 16, 2018, 09:22:52 PM
Post by: Bubba on January 16, 2018, 11:29:35 PM
There are other jobs in the world of tech that pay much better and are more rewarding than this.
Post by: Penny579 on January 17, 2018, 08:29:00 AM
So basically, v3.X is adding the shit into the techdemo they promised would be in v3.0. So expect that to be done probably sometime around 2020 or thereabouts.
If CiG lives long enough, that is.
The way i read the original schedule report was....
we are like years behind the 3.0 release because of all the extra 'polish', but we just released 3.0 and left half the shit out and its pretty broken... But its a new year now !!! so we need a road map.... because that's the thing we do annually, i mean we haven't thrashed out a plan on how to finish yet or anything, i mean how could we sell jpegs following a plan? clearly alpha knows nothing about game developments
anyways most of the year will be spent putting in the shit that was meant to be in 3.0 in the first place, while this might be the most realistic time line we have put forward yet ... i mean we have given our selves a whole year to finish stuff that we said was 98% done in 2016 so it sounds achievable given the incredibly low hurdle we have set ourselves ... but give it 6 months and you'll find out the schedules where just bullshit to keep the hype up and we will be struggling with critical art reworks, new concepts well make some lame excuses maybe something about a law suit and then trumpet our achievements that we are now burning down to 3.1 this xmas !!!!! (just in time for a jpeg sales)
and if you get a new premium subscription we will even let you crash the power point tech demo before other backers, you can be all "in'' with the team and we will even let you give us feedback... help us pros 'develop' catch the fine glitches that may slip through the cracks of our exhaustive QA" maybe give you a sneak preview of the 3.2 road map
Post by: Penny579 on January 17, 2018, 08:57:27 AM
X4 might wipe the floor with Mini-PU this year. Egosoft is known for questionable software quality on release day, but they are quicker than CIG in fixing it up.
Did you know that CIG completely removed Area 18 from Pre-Alpha 3.0?
speaking of the X series ... dig up the dev blogs on simulating an economy, its so many lemons before the lemon aid, even at release it was still pretty bitter. Given they have been at it for years the :siren: goes off for me when CIG think they are going to chuck that bit of highly dynamic programming in.. they are already talking about pricing refinement :wtf: what economy the sever doesn't even last hours, you don't event have a design document on what an economy might look like.
speaking for the speed of development, for a bit i was like the whole travel to a planet seamlessly thing was pretty cool must be real hard... wait space engineers already has this it only cost me 15 bucks it started after CIG with a a tiny team, it cost a million times less and runs a full simulation at the same ... think SpaceX designed a new rocket from scratch built and tested it and got a rocket to outer space in real life, in less time and for similar budget to star citizen.... really :wtf:
Post by: dsmart on January 18, 2018, 06:25:46 AM
They're so screwed
Post by: lurker_404 on January 18, 2018, 11:30:56 AM
Post by: N0mad on January 18, 2018, 10:30:26 PM
The section on how ships are thought up is especially good around the 20 minute mark.
TLDR; Chris just gets ideas from Star Wars or WW2.
Post by: jwh1701 on January 19, 2018, 07:26:36 AM
Latest ATV is out and it's a tour of the JPEG factory - literally.
The section on how ships are thought up is especially good around the 20 minute mark.
TLDR; Chris just gets ideas from Star Wars or WW2.
This video is crazy, all these people involved on ships and you don't even have a functioning game.
All these people employed just for ships and they still do not function. They have so many core issues,
persistence, economy, netcode, gazillion missions to create. F42 is seeing what its like to live in a dystopia
CR development society can't be easy.
Post by: Penny579 on January 19, 2018, 08:31:47 AM
This video is crazy, all these people involved on ships and you don't even have a functioning game.
All these people employed just for ships and they still do not function. They have so many core issues,
persistence, economy, netcode, gazillion missions to create. F42 is seeing what its like to live in a dystopia
CR development society can't be easy.
Even those without marketing degrees can tell you people buy spaceships, no one wants a jpeg of unfinished netcode
Post by: Flashwit on January 19, 2018, 09:29:28 AM
Post by: helimoth on January 20, 2018, 04:29:53 AM
I think any publisher after seeing a bill for nearly three-quarters of a billion dollars, dwindling player numbers and no end in sight would have put this sick puppy to sleep a long time ago.
Post by: dsmart on January 20, 2018, 06:56:56 AM
I remember croberts claiming years ago that for every dollar paid to him would be worth a multiple of that dollar (I don't remember the exact multiple he used but it was like 4x or higher) due to being able to avoid publisher overheads. This means that with the funding total now at $177,000,000 croberts is effectively saying a top studio with a publisher would not be able to create what they have without at least $708,000,000 and upwards of 6 years development time.
I think any publisher after seeing a bill for nearly three-quarters of a billion dollars, dwindling player numbers and no end in sight would have put this sick puppy to sleep a long time ago.
Chris Roberts: I can be more profitable than AAA games on a fifth of sales (http://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/2013-04-22-chris-roberts-how-incredible-community-transforms-development)
Post by: krylite on January 20, 2018, 05:14:40 PM
Latest ATV is out and it's a tour of the JPEG factory - literally.
The section on how ships are thought up is especially good around the 20 minute mark.
TLDR; Chris just gets ideas from Star Wars or WW2.
:laugh:, it's so easy in that useless video to guess behind the lines what the ATV heads are really saying i.e. pretty much confirms how fubar the project is and how insipid and so far behind the real deal games such as Elite Dangerous. Some examples:
One of the ship designers trying to make it sound amusing how everyone has to run their new idea by CR literally squeezing in line begging CR for approval to continue. Confirms it's a small company lousy dictatorship culture, the worst types of family business firms to be working for..
CR himself talks how he goes through each idea and says ok or not. Just like those old prequel videos of George Lucas going through all the art ideas while the staff/yesmen are just waiting on every word while GL ends up choosing the worst in your face OT fan insulting kiddie designs for TPM.
Then CR talking about how the ships are "real" and realizing one's old genre dreams of "living out" flying spacehips like in the novels, tv's, movies. Amazingly talking like ED doesn't exist and is already doing that exact "flying spaceships" gameplay for many sci-fi fans. Right, just rip off another idea here and there from other currently or recently successful games while SC continues to be made further irrelevant. What a bunch of bull and gall. "Profitability??"..pffft.. more like ponzi churning.
Even ED had a nice "SC quality" teaser trailer of the Chieftan which will be out in maybe one month instead of 6 years. www.youtube.com/watch?v=UKcclm3dFzk
Post by: dsmart on January 22, 2018, 06:45:26 AM
https://gfycat.com/AlarmedTestyAfricanjacana
Post by: helimoth on January 22, 2018, 09:26:05 AM
LOL!!
https://gfycat.com/AlarmedTestyAfricanjacana
rofl
and that's meant to be the pinnacle - the very cutting edge - of what is graphically achievable in 2018?
Post by: Motto on January 22, 2018, 11:54:34 AM
Post by: jwh1701 on January 22, 2018, 03:57:36 PM
Yes, any day now (https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/comments/7s4wb4/the_silence_is_deafening_cig/) :dance:
I replied in the thread and took a screen of the post and it was removed in under 54 seconds.
Post by: justme on January 23, 2018, 01:51:49 AM
with that, you are not able to wear a space suit. this means, that you can't exit the station and survive that.
also if you have some friends, waiting with a ship with atmosphere out side, you could not use your mobiglas.
this you need for all the traveling.
this is not a client based bug. so if you login on another computer, you still have that bug. and if you login with
a fresh account, you will not have it.
this bug is known since the beginning of the ptu, so around 4 month! during the ptu you could solve it by your own,
by recopy your account.
when the first rumors came up, that ptu should go live, there were several threads about the possibility to reset the
account in the pu, too. it was said, that there are some heavy game braking bugs, like this one and atm the only way
would be, to recopy the account. they ignored these warnings, deleted some threads, because some got a bit salty and
so they could close these threads for moderation reasons.
we all know, that star citizen has the most toxic moderation of all.
the first entry of this spaceball bug was shortly after the pu release. so since this date, many players have that bug and the
number is still climbing up.
so some players are out there, having this bug a month.
maybe someone should do a faked bug report with the reproducable steps of that one, with telling you get something special for free, like a flyable idris or so. atm it seems a bit, that they don't really care about :D
Post by: jwh1701 on January 23, 2018, 07:55:56 AM
Laughing about this earlier thinking no wonder its taking so long I bet this has never been done before
in any other space sim.
Post by: Narrenbart on January 24, 2018, 10:08:38 AM
Post by: jwh1701 on January 25, 2018, 08:03:00 AM
(https://s26.postimg.org/j67hbwaqh/sc_test.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
Post by: dsmart on January 25, 2018, 08:52:01 AM
I really do not understand the mindset of SC Supporters at all, the lawsuit has exposed Chris out right lying. With 7 years in dev and the basics still do not work. They keep saying its alpha and they tell people to move along if all their ships are broken. And of course this thread is put under controversial if that alone is not a red flag for sc supports then they will probally get in a line and follow CR off a cliff.
Yeah, it's normal for a game 6 years in development, to still be in alpha. Everything's fine, you see. :c00lbert:
Post by: David-2 on January 25, 2018, 09:02:54 AM
But assume, arguendo, that you did code the game that badly, and every piece that had a set of "thought UI" tags/attribute/overrides/functionality failed to be created in an otherwise newly created ship (of multiple ship classes). In that case how could it be anything but a single bug localized in one location that could be easily found and fixed in one day?
Post by: StanTheMan on January 25, 2018, 04:39:20 PM
I don't even understand how you could possibly code the game so badly that assets consistently were only partially created.
But assume, arguendo, that you did code the game that badly, and every piece that had a set of "thought UI" tags/attribute/overrides/functionality failed to be created in an otherwise newly created ship (of multiple ship classes). In that case how could it be anything but a single bug localized in one location that could be easily found and fixed in one day?
Answers on a JPEG.
(https://memegenerator.net/img/instances/500x/67852550/youre-so-fucked-up-that-you-could-fall-into-a-barrel-of-tits-and-come-up-with-a-dick-in-your-mouth.jpg)
Post by: jwh1701 on January 25, 2018, 09:07:34 PM
https://robertsspaceindustries.com/roadmap/board/1-Star-Citizen
Took Screen Shot, Popup with lots of caveats comes up to, but least we have it saved.
(https://s26.postimg.org/9b30jnbt5/sc_roadmap_2018.jpg) (https://postimg.org/image/dwz4rzxc5/)
Post by: Spunky Munkee on January 25, 2018, 11:29:06 PM
When I read the supposed 3.1 items and 3.2 ect I cant help but think that this crap should have already been done. They should not be lauded for getting it done rather they deserve to be hammered for failing to do these things already.
What a joke.
The only reason I bother watching this any longer is because other than some government departments this has to be one of the worst run organization. Think about it. CIG and the Government both get fed money regardless of their efficiency, responsiveness, customer satisfaction, productivity, or professionalism.
Post by: GaryII on January 26, 2018, 03:34:37 AM
Road Map is up, in reddit they already making excuses for it or giving it a pass.Yes, those Shilizens are amazing :D
I am 99 % sure that actual "progress" will be 3.2 only in December...
3.1 maybe in May, but in will not contain much of new content..
So actual end result are yearly content updates, not quarterly...
Post by: N0mad on January 26, 2018, 07:13:18 AM
Interesting that for 3.2 they plan to implement a lot of new gameplay mechanics (mining / salvage / repair and others). I can't see that happening in 2018 Q2 at all - especially given that it's taken them a full year to get a bare bones 3.0 patch out.
Post by: dsmart on January 26, 2018, 07:22:30 AM
Post by: N0mad on January 26, 2018, 08:02:53 AM
Not just the nervous laughter when the devs talk about getting CR to approve a change, but the fact that so many people have spent so long on what is just an art asset in the game. Don't get me wrong, the Coil looks amazing, but yet again rather than use simple and established techniques and tools to achieve the same effect (maybe at lower quality), they've opted to build a new system from scratch and make everything more complex.
It all goes to reinforce the idea that CR is still just making movies - albeit an interactive one. CIG seem to spend more time getting the art assets right than focusing on gameplay loops or performance. If they ever do release SQ42 it will be the most beautiful interactive space movie ever released, with the occasional moment of awkward combat thrown in between the extended periods of moving from A to B so you can marvel at the art work (presented in slideshow format at 20fps).
Post by: jwh1701 on January 26, 2018, 08:07:28 AM
Program name is at the 8 second mark.
Post by: dsmart on January 26, 2018, 08:13:54 AM
Here's something that caught my eye, its not all the fidelity but what the name of the program they are using in top right.
I don't see anything. What time stamp?
Post by: jwh1701 on January 26, 2018, 08:16:48 AM
I don't see anything. What time stamp?
Right at 8 second mark you can see the program name, I can only guess they are cig dev?
Post by: jwh1701 on January 26, 2018, 08:30:02 AM
Spend 25k and get two F8 Lightning Heavy Fighters :lol:
And crytek is the greedy one per many on the reddit :lol:
https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/comments/7t1n8s/all_new_concierge_rewards_up_to_two_free_f8/
(https://s26.postimg.org/56k4rrt1l/All_new_concierge_rewards_star_citizen.png) (https://postimg.org/image/5w2x44tl1/)
Post by: Kyrt on January 26, 2018, 08:37:36 AM
Here's something that caught my eye, its not all the fidelity but what the name of the program they are using in top right.
Program name is at the 8 second mark.
Is it too much trouble to tell us?
Post by: jwh1701 on January 26, 2018, 08:42:12 AM
Is it too much trouble to tell us?
Give me a second, long name take a screen of it and upload. Really wanting anyone with dev to give take on the name and the file extension to see what they thought. Curious if this in anyway infers they have completely moved to ly?
(https://s26.postimg.org/fj6fdnjy1/build_information_lumbaryard.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
Post by: Flashwit on January 26, 2018, 08:43:26 AM
Post by: jwh1701 on January 26, 2018, 09:10:55 AM
Here's people either spent over 25k or others trying to get the perks :lol:
(https://s26.postimg.org/ypjmh3nnt/spend_that_money_lol.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
Post by: N0mad on January 26, 2018, 09:20:31 AM
Give me a second, long name take a screen of it and upload. Really wanting anyone with dev to give take on the name and the file extension to see what they thought. Curious if this in anyway infers they have completely moved to ly?
I'm not sure what you're getting at. CIG say they're using Lumberyard. That will be the modified CryEngine editor now named Lumberyard. The .cry file extension will be inherited from the original Cryengine code (as are directories named CryEngine etc).
The interesting point which Derek made is whether they have moved the code base to Lumberyard, or simply ported their custom code to the new Editor. Since the first would require them to start with a fresh build of the Lumberyard code, then manually go through every file, copying across any changes that they've made, and only those changes. More likely, to be recognised as Lumberyard simply requires some extra code linking to the Amazon Web Services, so rather than untangle all their code from original CryEngine, they've just added these new AWS features. However, having not attempted to port a modified CryEngine to Lumberyard then this is just speculation on my part.
Post by: jwh1701 on January 26, 2018, 09:36:05 AM
I'm not sure what you're getting at. CIG say they're using Lumberyard. That will be the modified CryEngine editor now named Lumberyard. The .cry file extension will be inherited from the original Cryengine code (as are directories named CryEngine etc).
I do not believe they could have moved to ly in two days if they had done all they claimed to the original engine. If they are using an ly editor would this work with the heavily modified star engine?
Post by: dsmart on January 26, 2018, 09:56:55 AM
Give me a second, long name take a screen of it and upload. Really wanting anyone with dev to give take on the name and the file extension to see what they thought. Curious if this in anyway infers they have completely moved to ly?
(https://s26.postimg.org/fj6fdnjy1/build_information_lumbaryard.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
The LY editor is still backwards compatible.
Post by: dsmart on January 26, 2018, 10:23:08 AM
Beer4TheBeerGod over on SA (https://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3800238&userid=0&perpage=40&pagenumber=3591#post480675672)
Quote
Let's see, so at the end of Q1 2018 they're going to...
Have Customizable Characters (100 tasks)
Polish Helmets (13 tasks)
"Improve" Planetary Generation Tech (1 task)
"Improve" the Flight Control System (1 task)
"Improve" the Personal Manager (1 task)
Balance Weapons (2 tasks)
Overhaul Ship Damage (4 tasks)
Convert Ship AI to Subsumption (62 tasks)
Implement Aegis Reclaimer (56 tasks)
Implement Anvil Terrapin (39 tasks)
Implement MISC Razor (39 tasks)
Implement Tumbril Cyclone (38 tasks)
Implement Ship Weapon: Preacher Distortion Shotgun (29 tasks)
Implement Personal Weapon: Gemini R97 Shotgun (29 tasks)
Improve Netcode (10 tasks)
Optimize Performance (36 tasks)
Let's be clear about this. They've put more thought into laying out how to polish the fucking helmets than they have for improving netcode. It takes the same number of tasks to implement a glorified off-road golf cart than it does to implement a multi-crew ships. They have 100 tasks to implement customization of characters but only 3 tasks combined to improve planetary generation, improve the flight system (their core gameplay element), and improve the user interface.
At this point anyone who reads that and doesn't immediate register that it's a giant pile of steaming bullshit deserves to be fucking scammed.
Post by: Kyrt on January 26, 2018, 11:02:53 AM
The new schedule as well as the latest whale backer bribery are amazing. Going to write a short article later today or tomorrow from the notes I have gathered.
Beer4TheBeerGod over on SA (https://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3800238&userid=0&perpage=40&pagenumber=3591#post480675672)
To be fair, one task doesn't necessarily equal another, either in complexity, time or required resources or manpower.
OTOH...that does make the list rather arbitrary and meaningless, not to mention it is difficult to think of one "task" for...as an example...improving planetary generation tech short of rolling everything into just one heading and calling it a task.
As it is, based on CIGs progress to date, this list strikes me as overly optimistic for just a years work. It implies that CIG are going to really increase their productivity but even if all of this goes through, and goes through on time, that essentially leaves 3.4 in Dec18 at the point we where originally supposed to reach with 3.0 in Dec 16.
IF they keep the schedule.
Post by: N0mad on January 26, 2018, 11:27:30 AM
Post by: jwh1701 on January 26, 2018, 12:58:11 PM
The LY editor is still backwards compatible.
When I saw the editor I wondered how they could have used LY editor with starengine, I thought with all the claimed changes would they need have created their own build tools.
Post by: Motto on January 26, 2018, 02:49:15 PM
Post by: Orgetorix on January 26, 2018, 11:10:43 PM
They can easily keep to the schedule by delivering a bare bones, super simple implementation of each feature. Eg. for mining: procedurally assign asteroids a mineral content (to save storing a mineral worth for EVERY asteroid), use a scanner to determine the content, then have a mining laser animation to transfer the mineral worth to the ship, at the end keep a list of depleted asteroids on the client / server. Simple to implement, not a lot of fun, but at least once it's in the game they can iterate on it. But this is Chris Roberts and CIG, they NEVER choose the easy option, and it will never get into the game this side of 2019.
For fidelity's sake they have to start at the subatomic level, and model each subatomic quark, then move up to the atomic level, and model each proton, neutron, and electron. Not too mention the photons, got to have extensive modeling of the photons.
That's the ticket, when you have realistic interaction of all the particles, both as a particle and a wave, only then can true fidelity be reached!
Post by: jwh1701 on January 27, 2018, 05:52:53 PM
I like Elite/H as I only play the offline mode and I hate griefing in games. So far with what little there is do to you can
find many videos of people doing all and anything they can to grief other players. I was thinking that this game could
be come one of the biggest grief games similar to ARK: Survival Evolved. I can see players swarming f8's for fun and any
other outrageously overpriced ship they can sell.
I've been curious to see what or any action they will take:
https://robertsspaceindustries.com/spectrum/community/SC/forum/50259/thread/insurance-and-cheating-the-system/916092
Post by: StanTheMan on January 27, 2018, 07:42:42 PM
Interesting thread, several 3.0 videos on youtube show people losing their ships to theft, people wait around just to steal them.
I like Elite/H as I only play the offline mode and I hate griefing in games. So far with what little there is do to you can
find many videos of people doing all and anything they can to grief other players. I was thinking that this game could
be come one of the biggest grief games similar to ARK: Survival Evolved. I can see players swarming f8's for fun and any
other outrageously overpriced ship they can sell.
I've been curious to see what or any action they will take:
https://robertsspaceindustries.com/spectrum/community/SC/forum/50259/thread/insurance-and-cheating-the-system/916092
I love scamming people in MMOs - all in game stuff.
One mans griefing is another mans career choice and where better to learn the hard lesons than in a game and not the real world eh .... :smuggo:
They have no chance of policing Star Citizen from the Real Money Trade business to simple - aggressive takeover of assets.
I don't think you can programme a system to stop me getting Little Billy to lend me his ship or stop him from falling for a ruse - Croberts isn't the only person who can get stuff out of people with a bit of flannel...
I limit my activities to ingame and RMT not trying to get people to give out account details or other out of game stuff, but if it is in game it is fair game to me - even if all encompassing EULAS and TOS try to make "scamming" etc rules of the game.
I can imagine todays snowflakes (not including PVE players!) are more fragile than those of a decade or so ago so the bleating to CIG would be constant. Another costly overhead for them to pay for...
Post by: jwh1701 on January 27, 2018, 09:01:03 PM
I love scamming people in MMOs - all in game stuff.
One mans griefing is another mans career choice and where better to learn the hard lesons than in a game and not the real world eh .... :smuggo:
They have no chance of policing Star Citizen from the Real Money Trade business to simple - aggressive takeover of assets.
I don't think you can programme a system to stop me getting Little Billy to lend me his ship or stop him from falling for a ruse - Croberts isn't the only person who can get stuff out of people with a bit of flannel...
I limit my activities to ingame and RMT not trying to get people to give out account details or other out of game stuff, but if it is in game it is fair game to me - even if all encompassing EULAS and TOS try to make "scamming" etc rules of the game.
I can imagine todays snowflakes (not including PVE players!) are more fragile than those of a decade or so ago so the bleating to CIG would be constant. Another costly overhead for them to pay for...
Everyone has different ideas on game play, I take the same approach in games as in real life. I can show a video of person handing $1000 dollars worth of cyber rig for me to change in an MMO. Everyone that is a close friend knows that I would never steal or take anything from anyone. Even now with friends I still record when handling items that are very expensive just in case anything should happen.
What I was watching was which I will try to find is guy requested his ship and before he got to it it was stolen, seen two of these kinds of videos. To me that is a bug as no one should be able to take the ship before you can get to the landing pad. Title was something like 130k lost in 5 seconds, I did not see it in bookmarks.
Post by: David-2 on January 27, 2018, 10:08:46 PM
What I was watching was which I will try to find is guy requested his ship and before he got to it it was stolen, seen two of these kinds of videos. To me that is a bug as no one should be able to take the ship before you can get to the landing pad.
I don't see why that isn't the intended and expected behavior, given that since Day 1 you've got to request your ship then run down long hallways and through airlocks and down flights of stairs and then across "tarmac" to get to your ship. If CIG didn't want people to be able to steal your ship why didn't they implement it so you go to your very own personal "hanger", entering with a keycode, then enter your ship and fly out of the hanger? I mean, what is your very own personal "hanger" for if not to hold your ships so you can get into them in ease and comfort?
And I may as well say that I don't understand - as I'm not a gamer - the "fun" in waking up in your very own personal ... well, I guess it's called a "wank pod" on reddit ... and then running down corridors and down stairs etc. etc. just to get to order your ship, whereupon you get to run around as I mentioned above. Each and every time.
A cynic might say that that's because the only thing that reliably works is running around in corridors. I mean, if you look at videos on youtube ... that's pretty much how each and everyone of them spends the first 4-6 minutes.
It's not like anything actually happens in those corridors. There isn't anyone to talk to, nothing to see, no thugs to mug you, no whores to proposition you, no food stands to grab a bite to eat before your "mission" ... nothing at all to do except to run around.
Seems pretty boring to me, but as I say, I'm not a gamer.
Post by: dsmart on January 28, 2018, 08:30:26 AM
Meanwhile, over at the hug box, they're having a collective meltdown over the ship stealing issue (https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/comments/7tg30u/psa_stealing_ships_might_no_longer_be_planned/)
Star Citizen Litany of Lies
Original Promise: "Single Player – Offline or Online(Drop in / Drop out co-op play)" (https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/cig/star-citizen/description)
New Truth: Isolated co-op missions outside the campaign. (http://massivelyop.com/2015/07/31/co-op-missions-yanked-from-star-citizens-squadron-42/)
Original Promise: "Mod-able multiplayer (hosted by YOU)" (https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/cig/star-citizen/description)
New Truth: "We will be live and in operation for some time before anybody even looks at private servers." (https://youtu.be/aaoGxOxzAwc?t=1h50m50s)
Original Promise: We have backed Oculus Rift and will support it in Star Citizen / Squadron 42. (https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/cig/star-citizen/description)
New Truth: "I can't answer that." (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hSzfObdJGSs&t=45m31s) (45:31)
Original Promise: "Star Citizen will launch with 100 star systems." (https://robertsspaceindustries.com/funding-goals)
New Truth: 5-10 Systems at Launch (http://massivelyop.com/2017/07/19/star-citizen-followers-react-to-server-capacity-star-system-count-news/)
Original Promise: Persistent Universe (hosted by US) (https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/cig/star-citizen)
New Truth: Stolen ships will disappear when you log out. (https://robertsspaceindustries.com/spectrum/community/SC/forum/50259/thread/insurance-and-cheating-the-system/916039)
Post by: jwh1701 on January 28, 2018, 10:44:20 AM
Beer4TheBeerGod has updated a list of crucial features CIG have walked back. The most recent being the issue with stolen ships.
Meanwhile, over at the hug box, they're having a collective meltdown over the ship stealing issue (https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/comments/7tg30u/psa_stealing_ships_might_no_longer_be_planned/)
I had been trying to follow the pirate logic for awhile but had no Idea that it was this big a deal to remaining faithful. The link you had earlier to somethingawful they showed a guy who had already bought a domain and setup his whole life around this mechanic. I cannot wait to see the response from CR or whatever official twisting they do for this.
Post by: StanTheMan on January 28, 2018, 11:35:38 AM
Is there a document / graphic out there detailing all these internal entities/departments and one for the way they have segmented Backers into various niches (eg Concierge) over time ?
Post by: David-2 on January 28, 2018, 12:12:38 PM
Post by: helimoth on January 28, 2018, 05:34:44 PM
So no actual space pirates in the BDSSE then...
Post by: jwh1701 on January 28, 2018, 06:55:40 PM
Post by: GaryII on January 29, 2018, 05:50:10 AM
Instead we have Chris Roberts putting his son's turtles into the game.
Somebody needs to create Fallout 4 mod that in 2290+ year SC is still in development and Pre-Alfa.
And you can join 1 of 3 fractions:
1) Shilizens
2) Goons
3) Crytek (Skedden)
..and all main characters are still alive as ghouls ;)
and outcome depends totally on your actions...
P.S. Buy an Idris jpg for 10 000 bottlecaps ;)
Post by: StanTheMan on January 29, 2018, 07:09:00 AM
Somebody needs to create Fallout 4 mod that in 2290+ year SC is still in development and Pre-Alfa.
And you can join 1 of 3 fractions:
1) Shilizens
2) Goons
3) Crytek (Skedden)
..and all main characters are still alive as ghouls ;)
and outcome depends totally on your actions...
P.S. Buy an Idris jpg for 10 000 bottlecaps ;)
Or a different simple game would do...
Need a Kickstarter ....modest little affair ...
Shitizen special skills / weps etc ..throwing money into a dumpster fire - AOE attack
Skadden - chucking out law suits
Goons - answers on a ...
Derek ?
Post by: dsmart on January 29, 2018, 09:27:41 AM
http://www.pcgamer.com/if-you-steal-a-ship-in-star-citizen-it-will-disappear-when-you-log-out-of-the-game/
Post by: helimoth on January 29, 2018, 09:50:23 AM
Because I was not a Space Pirate.
Post by: GaryII on January 30, 2018, 01:31:11 AM
They're continuing to walk back design promises. The latest.
http://www.pcgamer.com/if-you-steal-a-ship-in-star-citizen-it-will-disappear-when-you-log-out-of-the-game/
I think its just a start, they starting to figure that:
1) People just can not have a nice things on Internet - people will exploit all that they can...
2) Actual development just can't compete with player dreams...
If this game goes that far - I am very interested how they try to solve all problems like balancing profits from different professions (trade, combat, mining etc) that how they fight exploiters, cheaters, greifers etc.
Post by: helimoth on January 30, 2018, 07:39:51 AM
I think its just a start, they starting to figure that:
1) People just can not have a nice things on Internet - people will exploit all that they can...
2) Actual development just can't compete with player dreams...
If this game goes that far - I am very interested how they try to solve all problems like balancing profits from different professions (trade, combat, mining etc) that how they fight exploiters, cheaters, greifers etc.
My guess is that it would be more of the same, watered-down concepts; probably all professions accessible through a missions UI which would be the same few missions constantly recycled - half of them buggy and broken. Trading will be just some pre-determined prices for trade goods that refresh occasionally, nothing dynamically driven - certainly no player driven economy. Mining will be a case of destroying prefabricated asteroids that again will be buggy and the times they do work just dropping the same stale minerals in pre-determined amounts. Combat will be the most boring of all imo which will involve boring 10 minute-long engagements which will consist of flying at the target, unloading a few volleys, then turning the ship around and repeating until the enemy ship explodes.
They've already shown with their hilarious "response" to the piracy question that they could give a rats ass about encouraging emergent gameplay or providing something fun - shitizens are there for one reason only and that's to keep on buying virtual items.
Post by: DemonInvestor on January 30, 2018, 02:00:43 PM
My guess is that it would be more of the same, watered-down concepts; probably all professions accessible through a missions UI which would be the same few missions constantly recycled - half of them buggy and broken. Trading will be just some pre-determined prices for trade goods that refresh occasionally, nothing dynamically driven - certainly no player driven economy. Mining will be a case of destroying prefabricated asteroids that again will be buggy and the times they do work just dropping the same stale minerals in pre-determined amounts. Combat will be the most boring of all imo which will involve boring 10 minute-long engagements which will consist of flying at the target, unloading a few volleys, then turning the ship around and repeating until the enemy ship explodes.
They've already shown with their hilarious "response" to the piracy question that they could give a rats ass about encouraging emergent gameplay or providing something fun - shitizens are there for one reason only and that's to keep on buying virtual items.
The problem seems to be that they're not that far in concept to actually talk what gameplay they think will emerge and how they'd lead to wanted gameplay. And so far i don't see them actually putting any realt thought in how to get strangers to actually cooperate - so that might because i'm not following every dream they utter.
Post by: N0mad on January 30, 2018, 02:15:27 PM
The problem seems to be that they're not that far in concept to actually talk what gameplay they think will emerge and how they'd lead to wanted gameplay. And so far i don't see them actually putting any realt thought in how to get strangers to actually cooperate - so that might because i'm not following every dream they utter.
The problem with Chris is that when anybody asks if a gameplay feature will be in the game: he says yes. They want all the gameplay, and to make it as complex as possible. At the same time all the actual gameplay development has been largely ignored thus far in favour of the graphical fidelity of the game (eg prioritising "Helmet polish" over anything which resembles a game mechanic). CIG have led the backers into believing whatever they want. Just read reddit a bit and you'll find that they all have their own idea about how the game will actually work and what they want to do in it. Very little of what has been promised will be implemented, none of it will work well, and, even if it does, none of it will be much fun.
Post by: dsmart on January 30, 2018, 02:40:43 PM
"SomethingJones"
Star Citizen: 7 hours of what Tony Zurovec said
NOTE: Nyx Landing Zone was previewed as "Coming Soon" in August 2015. This interview took place shortly after that preview - Tony Z says that Nyx Landing Zone is "largely done" and will be released in the next milestone after 'Shopping'.
@53:40
Jared Huckaby:
Is there anything more you can tell us about Nyx?
Tony Zurovec:
Yeah, NYX... NYX will likely show up in the milestone immediately after shopping, NYX is... it's interesting in that NYX has actually been largely done for quite a while.
There was one particular area, this BAZAR area that still had a lot of design details and artistic, you know... ISSUES that needed to be worked out, um... but with those now RESOLVED, production is, ah... you know, proceeding at FULL SPEED on it and we expect to have that done, ah, you know FAIRLY SOON
We should actually be able to spend quite a bit of time REFINING and TWEAKING, you know, ensuring that the performance is at the level that we actually want before we release it to the community. In other words the actualy BUILD OUT of the level is, ah... going REALLY REALLY WELL at this point.
Jared Huckaby:
Will it be another destination on the elevator?
Tony Zurovec:
That's... for the SHORT TERM we're just going to CHAIN and you're going to have the magical elevator, you can access it from there or from your hangar, that will change you know as we get a little bit farther along and your... you know... gain ability to ah, you know travel to different systems and stuff, ah... but for the SHORT TERM we will just allow players to go in there, it will just be another destination, you know, on that elevator.
Um, it's actu... um... NYX is really INTERESTING ah, from my perspective for a variety of different reasons, one of which is that it actually gives us the ability to have three, ah, completely distinct functional areas. What I mean by that is when you first land in NYX and you come out and you go through CUSTOMS and you basically go down to the main, ah... the main AREA... there's LAW AND ORDER, there's SECURITY, it's WELL MAINTAINED, all the LIGHTS are on, there's SECURITY GUARDS, you know, there's CIVILIANS, you know, CIVILIANS going about their BUSINESS
There's SHOPS in which you can do business, you know, ahhhh... ETCETERA
There are HINTS, you know, internally, that you're within an ASTEROID that's... ah... you know... you can see that from windows that give you these beautiful views, you know, ah, of the OUTSIDE, aahhm, you can tell because some of the CEILINGS you know, there was no point to basically building, ah... you know... to building ROOFS and CEILINGS all that type of stuff um so you can actually see you know BIG HUGE CHUNKS OF STEEL EXPOSED YOU KNOW AH
Asteroid stone, rock, metal you know, etcetera, you know just HANGING in various areas... but in general that area actually LOOKS, aaahhh... it LOOKS you know, very... it looks very MODERN. It looks built out. It looks like what it's supposed to be which is an area where people, you know, did a lot of business, they, you know, conduct a lot of business in that area.
As you start to MOVE you know down various passages and corridors and passageways away from that central area, you'll start to encounter what we call, you know... it's... it's a it's a more... it's a more DANGEROUS zone... basically it's an area that's no longer officially utilised by, you know, by the POLITICAL and CIVILIAN classes of this planet and it's been overtaken by uhh, by uhh, by you know... more QUESTIONABLE types, lots... you know... lots uh... much more crime there than you would ever see in the central area of the city there's no security to discourage it, ah
There are obviously you know just some, just some HARD LUCK cases out there, ugghhhmmm
You'll see these, uh along uh
Stuff that's fallen into disrepair
Lights that are flickering not working
Control panels you know that are no longer
Operate doors that are you know half stuck open
THAT TYPE OF THING
To where it looks
Very similar you know conceptually to the central area except it looks like it hasn't really been you know properly maintained for you know for a decade
THEN
If you continue proceeding even farther you'll get into what we call the
E X C A V A T I O N A R E A S
and this is where ONCE UPON A TIME
decades earlier
when this was
YOU KNOW
an area that they thought was going to be a... a... a...
A BOOMING MINING AREA
They were clearing out all sorts of
you know
new CAVERNS
drilling
them
out
etcetera
you know, the idea was...
they were, they were eventually going to put, put in
ALL THESE CONTROL ROOMS AND STORAGE FACILITIES
ETCETERA
and that construction you know STOPPED
Very Quickly.
And...
aahhh when they decided that
you know
given the
you know
aaahhhh
the surveys that they were doing the the the it was going to be way more difficult to extract sufficient value to the war and all the investment beingmadeandsotheoriginalinhabitantsofnyxtookoff
and all the
ah
you know
the
the
the
theeee
whatever-you-wanna-say...
THAT WAS ALL LEFT BEHIND AND BASICALLY THESE more politically oriented you know population gradually moved in and basically what you wound up with is a populous that tends to be a little bit more you know ahhhh radical in there overall you know political beliefs versus the mainstream
Post by: DemonInvestor on January 30, 2018, 02:55:09 PM
The problem with Chris is that when anybody asks if a gameplay feature will be in the game: he says yes. They want all the gameplay, and to make it as complex as possible. At the same time all the actual gameplay development has been largely ignored thus far in favour of the graphical fidelity of the game (eg prioritising "Helmet polish" over anything which resembles a game mechanic). CIG have led the backers into believing whatever they want. Just read reddit a bit and you'll find that they all have their own idea about how the game will actually work and what they want to do in it. Very little of what has been promised will be implemented, none of it will work well, and, even if it does, none of it will be much fun.
Yeah that's true.
Post by: dsmart on January 30, 2018, 04:26:18 PM
Yeah that's true.
What's missing in that is also the fact that he knows that the more promises he makes, the more money that is to follow. That's pretty much been the basis of it all.
Post by: dsmart on January 30, 2018, 06:04:35 PM
Star Citizen Patch 3.0.1
Alpha Patch 3.0.1 has been released to the Evocati, and is now available to test! Patch should now show: PTU-705284
It is strongly recommended that players delete their USER folder for the Public client after patching, particularly if you start encountering any odd character graphical issues or crash on loading. The USER folder can be found (in default installations) at C:\Program Files\Roberts Space Industries\StarCitizen\LIVE.
Major Known Issues:
When using the Mobiglas there is a chance to cause a graphical glitch that will remain for the duration of the session. W/A: Relaunching into crusader should fix it, but if this occurs please make note of it on the regression found here: https://robertsspaceindustries.com/spectrum/community/AVOCADO/forum/84096/thread/volunteer-regression-testing-3-0-1
New Features
General
Added monocle to PMA and added eye accessory slot as option in PMA.
Missions
Temporarily removed deploy missions from the mission broker.
Feature Updates
Ships and Vehicles
- AI now have specific shield generators that provide half the shield health/shield regen.
- For all ships, shield HP halved, regen lowered, regen ramp up time increased. Shields now allow more physical damage through the less health they have.
- For all ships, armor reduced to 1.00 for physical and 0.95 for energy for all ships.
- Missile damage and explosive radius reduced.
Bug Fixes
- Players should no longer be sorted into Arena Commander races that have already started, causing an error code.
- Speculative fix for ships missing items.
- Reputation should now persist between player sessions.
- Fix for ship EMP weapons charging much faster than intended.
- Fix for certain weapon families starting at max spread and recovering significantly slower than expected.
- When trying on/inspecting clothes your face should no longer be illuminated by helmet lights that aren't there.
- Fix for ships duplicating if changes were made to the pledge while an insurance claim was being made.
- Admin NPCs should now accept boxes and allow players to complete related missions.
- Boxes placed on admin counters should no longer fall through to the floor.
- REC rented items should no longer invalidate prior rentals and rentals with time remaining from the prior patch should now be available.
- Carry-able crates dropped from vehicle destruction in excess of SCU crates in Cargo Grids will now spawn on positions of Cargo Grids instead of near world origin.
- Players should no longer be able to break their character and be stuck spawning as a white sphere.
Technical
- Various crash fixes.
Known bugs, issues, and work arounds (W/A):
- When using the Mobiglas there is a chance to cause a graphical glitch that will remain for the duration of the session. W/A: Relaunching into crusader should fix it.
- AC ship customization and VMA currently do not save changes to selected ship. W/A: Port Olisar port modification system still somewhat works.
Post by: David-2 on January 30, 2018, 07:25:09 PM
THAT WAS ALL LEFT BEHIND AND BASICALLY THESE more politically oriented you know population gradually moved in and basically what you wound up with is a populous that tends to be a little bit more you know ahhhh radical in there overall you know political beliefs versus the mainstream
I didn't know any of this stuff was in the game! Holy cow, I'm ready to buy in to SC at last! I'm a big political junkie and the idea of having great political conversations with NPCs - maybe escalating, you know, into something more exciting, arguments, like, you know, fist fights or even gunplay! - that's really big for me! Maybe a clan vs clan thing where some clans are more libertarian and others more communist and others are like, well, anarchists obviously - this is cool! BDSSE!!!!!! :dance:
It is on the schedule for 3.3 or, end of year 3.4? I mean he said it was real close! They're just polishing it now!
Post by: orko on January 31, 2018, 03:21:55 AM
I didn't know any of this stuff was in the game! Holy cow, I'm ready to buy in to SC at last! I'm a big political junkie and the idea of having great political conversations with NPCs - maybe escalating, you know, into something more exciting, arguments, like, you know, fist fights or even gunplay! - that's really big for me! Maybe a clan vs clan thing where some clans are more libertarian and others more communist and others are like, well, anarchists obviously - this is cool! BDSSE!!!!!! :dance:
It is on the schedule for 3.3 or, end of year 3.4? I mean he said it was real close! They're just polishing it now!
:laugh:
Just a stream of thoughts for no reason. Still gotta share:
It's been such a blast to read all the endless visions of backers who are neck-deep in the muds of SC around the web. Countless times I've seen backers imagining all these beta phase features, embracing the collective consensus of needs and desires, and labeling criticism as an uninformed opinion. It's amazing. I feel people's general optimism and good faith has really hurt them this time. Personally, I consider myself a realist with a touch of cynicism, and I usually notice when I get overly optimistic about some great concept. But, when I think about SC, the project has never made me even remotely believe in the full vision 2.0.
Sure, the scope and demos were nice at first (during kickstarter mainly), but as time passed and, for example, no fundamental gameplay mechanics / stable core was ever introduced (outside the never-ending promises of even bigger things), my alarm bells really started ringing. Reading DS's first blog back in 2015 further confirmed my thoughts, and I started talking to my friends who were backers or followers of the project. Since then it has been very interesting and entertaining to follow and discuss the project. Better than TV, easily better than anything that comes out of the yellow press. Pure drama with many sides, endless surprises and secrets. Too bad nothing lasts forever.
Post by: GaryII on January 31, 2018, 03:52:54 AM
3.0.1 patch was released to Evocati. The patch notes are hilarious.
Evos can feel spacial again and try to test some broken mess again...
To me looks like a lot of hotfixies, some of them looks like wild guesses to try to fix bugs...and nothing more...
Post by: GaryII on January 31, 2018, 03:57:45 AM
It is on the schedule for 3.3 or, end of year 3.4? I mean he said it was real close! They're just polishing it now!
That "polish" can take few years, knowing CIG.. :D
I think, if they can push out broken 3.2 at end of the year (like it was with 3.0) its a roaring success for CIG!
Post by: dsmart on January 31, 2018, 05:24:38 AM
Evos can feel spacial again and try to test some broken mess again...
To me looks like a lot of hotfixies, some of them looks like wild guesses to try to fix bugs...and nothing more...
Oh, and it's about 36GB. So much for the delta patcher :vince: :lol:
Post by: StanTheMan on January 31, 2018, 05:51:23 AM
Yeah that's true.
CIG have out and out lied to Backers.
They keep telling the world that things are near completion, just about to be released and then not delivering for years..
All the while selling them stuff on the back of those lies.
It has gone way beyond a few people saying things they shouldn't have and management having to walk back on those statements.
Yet another failure to manage this game properly.
It was absolutely foreseeable (by an experienced qualified marketing professional for example) that you cant have staff (of any level) going on company produced video, forums etc saying X or Y features are going into the game by x date and then failing to deliver those whilst taking customers money on the reasonable expectation that they are being told the truth.
They are incredibly unprofessional and breaking the law.
Post by: McDrake on January 31, 2018, 09:32:14 AM
Oh, and it's about 36GB. So much for the delta patcher :vince:Are you kidding?
Post by: Flashwit on January 31, 2018, 10:06:25 AM
I can't recall any other game I've played where you've had to manually delete folders before installing updates. At the very least, if it's strongly recommended why wouldn't you just make that one of the steps in the patcher? It would take like 10 minutes to upgrade the patcher to delete that folder itself.
Post by: jwh1701 on January 31, 2018, 10:30:07 AM
Oh, and it's about 36GB. So much for the delta patcher :vince: :lol:
:lol: 36gb for the claimed fixes? :lol:
Post by: dsmart on January 31, 2018, 12:30:45 PM
:lol: 36gb for the claimed fixes? :lol:
Yeah well, I can see how the monocle is fidelitious enough. :smuggo:
Post by: DemonInvestor on January 31, 2018, 01:10:44 PM
CIG have out and out lied to Backers.
They keep telling the world that things are near completion, just about to be released and then not delivering for years..
All the while selling them stuff on the back of those lies.
It has gone way beyond a few people saying things they shouldn't have and management having to walk back on those statements.
Yet another failure to manage this game properly.
It was absolutely foreseeable (by an experienced qualified marketing professional for example) that you cant have staff (of any level) going on company produced video, forums etc saying X or Y features are going into the game by x date and then failing to deliver those whilst taking customers money on the reasonable expectation that they are being told the truth.
They are incredibly unprofessional and breaking the law.
The whole Spiel about constantly being nearly finished is really baffling. I witnessed that with Starbound and wondered why people were blindly following them, when it not only was apparent that the game was rescheduled and worked over and over again wand wouldn't hold true to their promises but that they put the pre-order money into establishing themselves as publishers. But than again they finished and delivered a game.
So sunk costs are really something people seemingly want to believe in.
Post by: dsmart on January 31, 2018, 01:17:48 PM
Are you kidding?
Nope. Not at all.
Post by: dsmart on January 31, 2018, 01:18:20 PM
On that same note, something that keeps getting me is this recurring recommendation to delete your USER folder. What's that all about? If their delta patcher is functioning (lol) correctly and updating the game properly each patch, why would you need to do this?
I can't recall any other game I've played where you've had to manually delete folders before installing updates. At the very least, if it's strongly recommended why wouldn't you just make that one of the steps in the patcher? It would take like 10 minutes to upgrade the patcher to delete that folder itself.
Well, it's pre-Alpha. So :colbert:
Post by: dsmart on January 31, 2018, 05:37:26 PM
He's lying. His lips are moving. How can someone describe a feature in 3.0 that isn't even **implemented** yet? They're basically going to make shit up this Friday, in an attempt to placate a bunch of fucking lunatics into thinking that in the long term, all their dreams will be realized.
https://www.twitch.tv/videos/224358368?t=00h36m46s
Post by: jwh1701 on January 31, 2018, 08:02:29 PM
Side note here's a backer tired of the polish with no real updates game mechanics.
Usually do not see to many of these when I'm checking.
https://robertsspaceindustries.com/spectrum/community/SC/forum/4/thread/the-best-damn-space-sim-ever-ahh-realy-with-that-f
(https://s26.postimg.org/pdrn7vgux/flight_model.jpg) (https://postimg.org/image/l4mx5pdlh/)
Post by: DemonInvestor on January 31, 2018, 11:10:21 PM
His lips are moving, which means he's lying.
He's lying. His lips are moving. How can someone describe a feature in 3.0 that isn't even **implemented** yet? They're basically going to make shit up this Friday, in an attempt to placate a bunch of fucking lunatics into thinking that in the long term, all their dreams will be realized.
https://www.twitch.tv/videos/224358368?t=00h36m46s
Found the limitations at around min 40 interesting. So 50 players it is for the next major leap in gpu/cpu.
Post by: Backer42 on February 01, 2018, 04:45:55 AM
Interesting thread, several 3.0 videos on youtube show people losing their ships to theft, people wait around just to steal them.
I like Elite/H as I only play the offline mode and I hate griefing in games. So far with what little there is do to you can
find many videos of people doing all and anything they can to grief other players. I was thinking that this game could
be come one of the biggest grief games similar to ARK: Survival Evolved. I can see players swarming f8's for fun and any
other outrageously overpriced ship they can sell.
You expected enjoyable multiplayer out of the most toxic community in video game history?
Post by: Backer42 on February 01, 2018, 04:53:57 AM
Side note here's a backer tired of the polish with no real updates game mechanics.
The "flight model" is Freelancer: point & click. Of course, Chris Roberts baited and switched simulation guys with "Newtonian physics" and other bullshit, but they didn't notice inside their echo chamber.
Post by: jwh1701 on February 01, 2018, 06:00:00 AM
You expected enjoyable multiplayer out of the most toxic community in video game history?
Another thread was posted where guy lost 1.3 mill uec due to ship ramming at the pad lol. Bunch posted in the same spectrum thread complaining about the same thing. Crazy they can not fix some simple turrets on the stations to alleviate the problem. I don't think they have any clue on how to implement game mechanics, many posted stating they were not even going to login due to the griefing. I think griefing/flight mechanics are two areas to really kick the diehards up in arms and put pressure on cig to produce. We know they cannot deliver but they still do, and I'm hoping for some great backlash at some point.
Post by: GaryII on February 01, 2018, 06:40:24 AM
I don't think they have any clue on how to implement game mechanics, many posted stating they were not even going to login due to the griefing. I think griefing/flight mechanics are two areas to really kick the diehards up in arms and put pressure on cig to produce. We know they cannot deliver but they still do, and I'm hoping for some great backlash at some point.
To combat griefing in SC you need to spent a lot of time and money..
In game where you can use hit and run tactics, ram ships/players and due design complexity find hundreds exploits and bugs to ruin other players day...
But here is very simple solution what FD in Elite Dangerous has implemented - Solo and Private modes...
There is reason why a lot of games have private servers...everybody now knows that people can't have nice things on internet...
Post by: N0mad on February 01, 2018, 06:48:49 AM
Another thread was posted where guy lost 1.3 mill uec due to ship ramming at the pad lol. Bunch posted in the same spectrum thread complaining about the same thing. Crazy they can not fix some simple turrets on the stations to alleviate the problem. I don't think they have any clue on how to implement game mechanics, many posted stating they were not even going to login due to the griefing. I think griefing/flight mechanics are two areas to really kick the diehards up in arms and put pressure on cig to produce. We know they cannot deliver but they still do, and I'm hoping for some great backlash at some point.
Ha ha ha ha ha - This is a community who spend all their time trolling Derek and other critics on forums. So now that there's a bit more of a game to actually play the natural tendency is to start trolling / griefing people within the game - there really isn't much more to actually do in the game anyway.
If CIG had actually given them some interesting missions or some meaningful PvE then griefing would be less common.
Perhaps CIG are worried that if they clamp down on these guys too much then nobody will be left playing or the whales might get upset?? Can't wait to see what they do.
Post by: dsmart on February 01, 2018, 09:06:42 AM
His lips are moving, which means he's lying.
He's lying. His lips are moving. How can someone describe a feature in 3.0 that isn't even **implemented** yet? They're basically going to make shit up this Friday, in an attempt to placate a bunch of fucking lunatics into thinking that in the long term, all their dreams will be realized.
https://www.twitch.tv/videos/224358368?t=00h36m46s
Damage control continues..
(https://i.imgur.com/PHL6bTg.png)[/url]
https://robertsspaceindustries.com/spectrum/community/SC/forum/3/thread/pirates-you-can-t-have-8-trillion-ship-armadas-rol/931145
Wait! So basically he's saying the dev was talking about implementing a feature in the near 3.0 - 3.1 term, even though NONE of that even exists in 3.0, nor scheduled for 3.1 - 3.4?!?
Hold my beer....
https://robertsspaceindustries.com/roadmap/board/1-Star-Citizen
Post by: jwh1701 on February 01, 2018, 09:40:49 AM
Damage control continues..
https://robertsspaceindustries.com/spectrum/community/SC/forum/3/thread/pirates-you-can-t-have-8-trillion-ship-armadas-rol/931145
:lol: Been waiting to see the whales turn on each other and hopefully cig, so many mechanic promises that I don't believe they can fulfill.
Still reading some of the pirate guys think they will have 50 to 100 ships all friends together to steal ships they are going to disappointed.
New one concerning ongoing collisions issues: If you hit npc he goes through the floor.
:lol: Response: Nooooo don't hit the guy! That apparently breaks all the NPCs on that realm
https://robertsspaceindustries.com/spectrum/community/SC/forum/4/thread/if-you-get-fed-up-with-that-guy-who-refuses-to-tak.
Post by: David-2 on February 01, 2018, 10:13:12 AM
New one concerning ongoing collisions issues: If you hit npc he goes through the floor.
:lol: Response: Nooooo don't hit the guy! That apparently breaks all the NPCs on that realm
https://robertsspaceindustries.com/spectrum/community/SC/forum/4/thread/if-you-get-fed-up-with-that-guy-who-refuses-to-tak.
Thank you! This triggered a thought: I finally understand this "local physics grid" they're always talking about!
It's like - Kirk, in the "interphase" (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nHr53KUcOtY&feature=youtu.be&t=41), in The Tholian Web. (In Star Trek TOS, the only true Star Trek!)
Each of these local physics grid is it's own universe, intersecting with the others in some sort of 4 dimensional quantum way, just like that scene, where these objects can be seen together but are actually doing their own thing!
But with less transparency and more laffs.
Anyway, it's clear, after 6yrs, that these issues are never going to be fixed. I suggest the trufans embrace the suck and theorycraft some exciting gameplay around it.
Post by: Flashwit on February 01, 2018, 10:20:06 AM
As for the flight model, yep, the videos I've watched and the bits of the game that I've played have made it feel like none of the ships have any weight whatsoever. They quite easily just ping and bounce off of everything.
Post by: helimoth on February 01, 2018, 12:11:39 PM
Post by: N0mad on February 01, 2018, 03:36:35 PM
Quote
"Lorville is going to be great. CIG's use of statues really adds to the atmosphere."That's just the first 4 comments at the top of the reddit so far.
"I'm just worrying more and more about how they are going to get enough assets up to fill the verse at this rate."
"Landing zones and armor/clothing. Hopefully they can get some faster pipelines going on those after these first few."
"Hopefully. I know the combination of procedural tech and the expanding art assets will help. "
These guys deserve to get a game where the only gameplay involves walking around taking pictures of the high visual fidelity.
Post by: dsmart on February 01, 2018, 04:40:34 PM
Post by: helimoth on February 01, 2018, 05:17:18 PM
Chris chimes in on the piracy shit-storm FF to 40:15 :smugjones:
damn CR looks old. CR - if you or your bit of stuff sandi is reading this; just give it up mate. refund everyone who you wronged to the best of rsi's ability and just let this go. you're getting too old for this runaround now. whatever grace you have left; use it for the best bowing out possible.
Post by: jwh1701 on February 02, 2018, 07:42:22 AM
Chris chimes in on the piracy shit-storm FF to 40:15 :smugjones:
With all the tech being thrown around in this video are they making sense? Have they
hit the eureka moment or are they still rushing to the OMG moment? If Derek
or anyone could answer on the culling, AI, shader/occlusion rework if they are
making any progress? I'm not great at judging character and when Brian is talking
it seems he believes that everything is going great, I constantly question are they
all it on it or do the majority believe the are making great progress?
Post by: dsmart on February 02, 2018, 08:30:48 AM
With all the tech being thrown around in this video are they making sense? Have they
hit the eureka moment or are they still rushing to the OMG moment? If Derek
or anyone could answer on the culling, AI, shader/occlusion rework if they are
making any progress? I'm not great at judging character and when Brian is talking
it seems he believes that everything is going great, I constantly question are they
all it on it or do the majority believe the are making great progress?
How can we comment on progress if they haven't released anything? As of the current 3.0.1 patch, the answer is...... :lol: no
Post by: dsmart on February 02, 2018, 08:31:19 AM
https://robertsspaceindustries.com/spectrum/community/SC/forum/4/thread/star-citizen-alpha-3-0-1-ptu-706028-patch-notes
Post by: N0mad on February 02, 2018, 09:37:22 AM
With all the tech being thrown around in this video are they making sense? Have they
hit the eureka moment or are they still rushing to the OMG moment? If Derek
or anyone could answer on the culling, AI, shader/occlusion rework if they are
making any progress? I'm not great at judging character and when Brian is talking
it seems he believes that everything is going great, I constantly question are they
all it on it or do the majority believe the are making great progress?
It's an interesting question about the technology, I would guess that if any of us knew enough about Cryengine to answer with confidence then we'd be working for CIG by now.
What follows is pure, half educated guess work: CIG do seem to be re-inventing the wheel a lot of the time. They like to throw a lot of technical keywords around which either have no well defined meaning (subsumption AI) or are comically misused (eg refactoring code = changing all the variable / method names). Whilst their solutions to the problems (eg volumetric fog, ambient occlusion) may produce a better result in the end, many of these things have an in-engine default implementation anyway. They seem to be wasting a lot of time and effort on relatively minor graphical upgrades.
Then there are the more crucial things such as AI and netcode where they could certainly benefit from a better implementation but seem to be taking their time doing it. AI Subsumption, to me, looks like the industry standard behavioural trees which they've just implemented in an external editor - clearly we don't have much more than a few screenshots to go on here. Their Network Bind Culling *should* reduce the amount of data being sent to each client and speed up the frame rates by ignoring updates which the player doesn't need. There should be industry standard ways to do this, the fact that they haven't done so yet presumably means that whatever solutions they've tried are making the server even slower - still, who knows.
Post by: Flashwit on February 02, 2018, 09:39:06 AM
Well, the latest ATV (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QhMQH25mEMw&feature=push-u-sub&attr_tag=V1rAmAhuJMIoj5iG-6) is up - and boy does Brian Chambers sound bored. So this was basically 40 minutes about art work and cinematics (with 5 minutes at the beginning talking about AI refractoring)... so not actually any discussion about gameplay (or showing actual gameplay). Which, for any other game would be a criticism, but for Star Citizen they're just playing to the fans:
That's just the first 4 comments at the top of the reddit so far.
These guys deserve to get a game where the only gameplay involves walking around taking pictures of the high visual fidelity.
Yes, pipelines, let's get some more pipelines! All we ever hear about from commandos is that the 'baseline' is now in the game and 'things will go much faster now' because they have 'pipelines' in place.
They could just make the game about watching stuff move through pipelines since that's apparently very satisfying.
Post by: dsmart on February 05, 2018, 04:51:38 AM
This certificated is installed with Star Citizen. It has nothing to do with the game - at all.
(https://s18.postimg.org/oofe314kp/scca.png)
It's registered to: https://www.whois.com/whois/starcitizen.com
Which leads to:
https://www.facebook.com/StarCitizen-963887816977205/
https://www.facebook.com/people/StarCitizen-Corp/100009242816721
Apparently this cert is used internally for their corp intranet. But somehow it ended up in the game's distribution files; specifically the installer package.
Regardless, they have a domain they do NOT own, in a corp intranet ROOT cert.
Ponder the implications.
Barely a week ago when the new website was unveiled, backers noticed (https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/comments/7t5uxm/i_was_having_issues_with_the_rsi_site_when_i/) that their password and login credentials were transmitted in PLAINTEXT in the browser URL.
Post by: dsmart on February 05, 2018, 09:49:42 AM
They do this from time to time btw, in a sad and pitiful attempt to get my account suspended. They've been at it for YEARS now.
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DVSUMeAWkAYPZnF.jpg)
Post by: jwh1701 on February 05, 2018, 02:57:18 PM
LOL!! Star Citizen fans are so adorable. They reported my account for Tweeting a security related issue.
:lol: That is very pathetic, I think everyone will deal with this sometime or later. I have already had two false strikes on youtube, just about everything that has been setup on social media is ripe for abuse. It seems there is none to little ramifications on the party making false accusations.
Post by: dsmart on February 05, 2018, 03:02:54 PM
Also, back in 2015, they also mass reported my Twitch channel, causing me to be knocked off the hair for several hours.
Post by: dsmart on February 05, 2018, 03:30:14 PM
LOL!!!
This certificated is installed with Star Citizen. It has nothing to do with the game - at all.
(https://s18.postimg.org/oofe314kp/scca.png)
It's registered to: https://www.whois.com/whois/starcitizen.com
Which leads to:
https://www.facebook.com/StarCitizen-963887816977205/
https://www.facebook.com/people/StarCitizen-Corp/100009242816721
Apparently this cert is used internally for their corp intranet. But somehow it ended up in the game's distribution files; specifically the installer package.
Regardless, they have a domain they do NOT own, in a corp intranet ROOT cert.
Ponder the implications.
Barely a week ago when the new website was unveiled, backers noticed (https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/comments/7t5uxm/i_was_having_issues_with_the_rsi_site_when_i/) that their password and login credentials were transmitted in PLAINTEXT in the browser URL.
Just found out that someone actually reported the cert (https://robertsspaceindustries.com/community/issue-council/rsi-launcher/RSIL-50429-client_crt_is_using_outdated_key_hash_and_refers_to_wrong_website_owned_by_someone_else) back on Jan 3rd. Since CIG tends to ignore bug reports, they released 3.0.1 patch days ago without fixing the cert issue.
Post by: David-2 on February 05, 2018, 04:47:26 PM
... they released 3.0.1 patch days ago without fixing the cert issue.
That's because they only just finished the delta patcher. The delta unpatcher isn't on the schedule for another quarter or two.
Post by: dsmart on February 11, 2018, 09:07:13 AM
Reverse The Verse - Jan 28th 2018
@41:48
Chris Roberts:
There's THOUSANDS of tasks and the information is OVERWHELMING.
So we sort of show the very HIGH LEVEL, ah, you know, what we would call an EPIC, ah, or in some cases sort of a SAGA which is overwhelming... over... quite a few EPICS... I know they... always thought of it... EPICS, SAGAS, STORIES... TASKS!
Ah, but... um... ah, so... so... so... so... so... so we... we... we ex... we EXPOSE those and we mark which ones are public facing, ah we WANTED to get the ROADMAP in people's hands which is why we went LIVE with it here... but they still have, ah... ORGANISATION work to do because they gotta take the way JIRA was set up BEFORE, some of it's been done, not all of it's been done, so they have to change it around because the... they gotta organise under the right EPICS and everything
So in the case where they don't feel COMFORTABLE that they don't have it organised properly and it's DUPICATE TASKS cos you know sometimes there were tasks set up from BEFORE but now we're setting it up on this new one, so in those cases they just choose not to show that epic publically until they have it... ah... in SHAPE, ah, so you'll see that ROADMAP, ehm... we'll get more THINGS added to it... ah, of course things also will... MOVE AROUND a little bit as... maybe a bit more information comes to light or how it's going
But that's the BEAUTY of it, it's gonna be A HUNDRED PERCENT LIVE reflection of the tool that we use to manage all the teams and we're using exactly the same process on Squadron 42 which is gonna get me to the end... to... the ANSWER... the original question which is, 'are you gonna get there to a roadmap like that', and... YES... ha! And YES, we... we will... ah... eh... we will... ah, if you look on the side there's a Star Citizen logo, there will be a Squadron 42 logo... you'll get the ROADMAP
So once we have the Squadron 42... ah... TASKS and EPICS all cleaned up and ready to go... we uh... then we'll also TURN THAT ON and share it
It may not be done on a QUARTERLY it may be done on a MONTHLY I'm not quite SURE
We're still discussing, ah, um, kind of a COLUMN FORMAT for it, ah... but it will, again, SCRUB LIVE from all the... the TASKS that we have, ah, and EPICS and SAGAS that we have entered, ahm, for finishing out Squadron 42
Post by: David-2 on February 11, 2018, 11:23:32 AM
Chris Roberts:
So we sort of show the very HIGH LEVEL, ah, you know, what we would call an EPIC, ah, or in some cases sort of a SAGA which is overwhelming... over... quite a few EPICS... I know they... always thought of it... EPICS, SAGAS, STORIES... TASKS!
I may be reading too much into this - I mean we know that word salad is characteristic of CRs disorganized thinking - but, gosh ... it's almost as if someone game him a list of all these words that are associated with software development - epic, story, task, refactor, jira, burn down, subsumption, 64-bit, texture, pipeline, physics grid, etc etc - and he doesn't actually understand any of it really but he's gonna go out and fake it as best he can ...
Post by: Spunky Munkee on February 11, 2018, 06:01:40 PM
I still check in because eventually this farce will collapse probably with a wheeze and a whimper not a bang. I will enjoy the crying from the long time sicko backers. All the crap they trhew at other backers for asking perfectly good and reasonable questions and the way they destroyed the community was certainly their part in destroying this project but inevitably, so long as Chris Roberts and company had they meat hooks into that money there was no way this game would see the light of day as promised. Their own little Confederacy of Dunces. How could they not Fail to Fail? Roberts is a jibbering idiot yet so many gave this douchebag hundreds of millions. Amazing....
Post by: jwh1701 on February 11, 2018, 06:41:32 PM
Just putting this here for completeness. There is still no public schedule for SQ42, despite croberts saying it would be made available in Dec 2017.
It's so crazy to see his words written down and then try and read them. My only fear is that this new form of project management language could be infectious and I start speaking like this in meetings. :lol:
Post by: dsmart on February 12, 2018, 12:28:37 PM
There is NO WAY that these foolish backers havent figured out that every word coming out of his mouth after "Chris Roberts" is complete and utter bullshit. It's like a badly written and (uncharacteristically) unfunny Monty Python scetch that goes on way too long.
Most have. And some of them are already over on https://reddit.com/r/starcitizen_refunds/
Post by: nightfire on February 12, 2018, 12:33:17 PM
Just putting this here for completeness. There is still no public schedule for SQ42, despite croberts saying it would be made available in Dec 2017.
Chris Roberts:
…
We're still discussing, ah, um, kind of a COLUMN FORMAT for it, ah... but it will, again, SCRUB LIVE from all the... the TASKS that we have, ah, and EPICS and SAGAS that we have entered, ahm, for finishing out Squadron 42
This kills it for me. They're going to spend months talking about the definition and design of a "COLUMN FORMAT", refactoring everything and having to re-enter the entire spreadsheet several times along the way. At last, during the final "polishing" phase, Chris will decide that he wants a circular format instead.
Post by: N0mad on February 13, 2018, 10:46:36 AM
Congrats to 'Kingdom Come: Deliverance' on their release! The Medieval RPG Kickstarter game Chris Roberts helped promote back in 2014. (https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/comments/7x70oa/congrats_to_kingdom_come_deliverance_on_their/)
Downvoted to the end of the thread was this beauty:
Quote
At least some companies know how to deliver on promises!
:laugh:
Post by: dsmart on February 13, 2018, 10:54:31 AM
Post by: dsmart on February 13, 2018, 03:15:39 PM
http://guardfrequency.com/199
- Discussion begins at 57:52.
- Tony invokes Enron at 1:00:05.
- Ortwin's position in the GLA negotiations at 1:02:25.
- At 1:05:10, Tony clearly has an unfavorable opinion of CIG's legal maneuvering to date.
- DEREK SMART DEREK SMART DEREK SMART is discussed from 1:06:32-1:09:47.
LOL! That tool, TheRealGremlich (https://guardfrequency.com/200), who used to have a Twitter profile of me with a giant dildo until Twitter made him remove it, wrote a letter to the GF guys.
FF to 1:04:29
https://guardfrequency.com/200
Transcript courtesy of SomethingJones
Quote
Host:
Ok, now we get to the good stuff. Gremlich writes in and says,
Hmmm... this is close to yellow card. I'm not gonna throw the yellow card at this because he uses really GOOD WORDS. Those are some good words there but I do wanna say that, ah... I'm... when we first contacted him that whole 1990s flame war thing was foremost in my mind, but... he's OLDER, maybe a little WISER now, and again I've had reasonable adult level conversations with him on multiple occasions, so I DO think he has things to offer, for good or for bad he has MADE A LIVING IN THE GAMES INDUSTRY for 30 years.
Maybe his titles aren't the best and maybe you don't want to play them and I can't say that I've played any of them with the exception of 3000AD, which broke constantly and made me swear at him in the 1990s - like many other people... but again, he's been in the trenches and he's been doing this stuff and he has in my view improved his credibility over the 2 years or so that he's been commenting publically on this issue.
Host:
You know I will say that I think Mister DS has calmed down a little bit I think from his early hay-day of Star Citizen hatred, most of his stuff is mostly about... if you follow him on Twitter now, it's mostly about the case coverage and stuff like that. And while I certainly don't share some of his opinion on the technical side, I'm not a game developer myself but I do have a technical background that overlaps with this field... you know, I understand where he's coming from, and while I don't agree with him I understand why he's doing it to some degree and I don't think this is as malicious as some people think.
But then again, at the same time, you know... for whatever reason he seems to be literate in interviews and incendiary in his online presence. I guess that's the best way to put it.
So, like... I don't agree with him in any way, shape or form on MANY of his views, but I don't think he is a... I don't think he's an idiot.
Host:
And if Guard Frequency and Derek Smart can have a conversation about stuff, the rest of the world should be able to have a conversation that we disagree on.
Post by: StanTheMan on February 13, 2018, 05:07:21 PM
LOL! That tool, TheRealGremlich (https://guardfrequency.com/200), who used to have a Twitter profile of me with a giant dildo until Twitter made him remove it, wrote a letter to the GF guys.
FF to 1:04:29
https://guardfrequency.com/200
Transcript courtesy of SomethingJones
What is his technical background such that he thinks it trumps yours ?
Post by: dsmart on February 14, 2018, 04:39:08 PM
What is his technical background such that he thinks it trumps yours ?
Internet shitposter, apparently. :yikes:
Post by: dithero on February 15, 2018, 04:40:30 AM
I received a marketing email from CIG notifying me about the opportunity to check out Star Citizen by purchasing some fake space ships or whatever.
I did not think much of it at the time and just hit 'spam' to get rid of it and any future unsolicited emails.
The thing is though, I am not, never have been, nor have any intention of being a
Never the less, CIG seem to be sending
Post by: dsmart on February 15, 2018, 05:00:07 AM
Something.. interesting.. happened the other week.
I received a marketing email from CIG notifying me about the opportunity to check out Star Citizen by purchasing some fake space ships or whatever.
I did not think much of it at the time and just hit 'spam' to get rid of it and any future unsolicited emails.
The thing is though, I am not, never have been, nor have any intention of being abackercustomer of CIG. I had seen the kickstarter back in 2014 and since they already had enough money to make the game, decided to wait until it is released to check out reviews first. I may or may not have given my email to be updated when that happens, I honestly do not remember.
Never the less, CIG seem to be sendingmarketing emailsspam to non-backers urging them to buy in to their fire sale. So much for not needing any more money.
Yeah, they started doing that back in Dec. It appears as if they bought a mailing list and now spamming people looking for new customers.
Post by: dithero on February 15, 2018, 06:41:26 AM
Yeah, they started doing that back in Dec. It appears as if they bought a mailing list and now spamming people looking for new customers.
Smacks of desperation. As if, somehow even after world record crowd funding collections, yet more money is desperately needed.
Post by: dsmart on February 15, 2018, 06:44:12 AM
Post by: dithero on February 15, 2018, 08:35:44 AM
Thing is that anybody who is remotely interested in the game, has already heard of it, and/or bought in. With all the bad PR, and the horrible mess that the project is in, they're not going to be able to increase their install base to any reasonable degree.
Hm, I had thought the same but would not be so sure. There are still people that see the tech demos and go 'This looks like a great game'. Most mainstream media do not report on the bad PR, or the fact that nothing that has been shown is actually in the game, other than for major news like the lawsuit.
The BBC ran many articles on SC back in 2014 and 2015 (last one from Feb 2016 - http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-35555086 - mentions SQ42 coming out 'this year') and nothing since other than news of the lawsuit - http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-42352606
This lack of information and lack of follow up on the previously positive reports contributes to people buying in unaware of the facts and the mainstream media is directly responsible for a lot of that wasted money.
Sadly, nothing will be done until such time that CIG finally admit defeat and the lawsuits from their customers start flowing. Though I strongly suspect there are plans in place for that eventuality and customers will find it very difficult to track down the right shell company to sue.
Post by: dsmart on February 15, 2018, 08:44:27 AM
Note also that if they weren't aware of this problem, they wouldn't be using every trick in the scam book to continue fleecing their pre-existing backers, nor using marketing mailing lists to send out spam.
Post by: dithero on February 15, 2018, 10:17:15 AM
Following the everyone that would have bought into it already has logic, the company should have ran out of cash a couple years ago already but it has not. So what gives?
Sure, the tracker can not be taken at face value but from what financial data has been released in the UK there is at least some cash flow, enough to cover expenses for 4+ offices.
Post by: N0mad on February 15, 2018, 02:45:19 PM
I'm just waiting for the meltdown when they realise it's all going to go into legal fees rather than game development when the Crytek case doesn't get dismissed. By that logic CIG had better start selling it soon before the judge makes a decision. :laugh:
"The Vulcan is the jack of all trades starter ship for these professions. It does repairing, it does refuelling and it does rearming, which is something we don't have in any ship currently."
No shit, because NONE of those mechanics is in the game yet, nor will be.
Post by: dsmart on February 15, 2018, 04:16:53 PM
(https://i.redd.it/b5a19oglxfg01.png)
(https://i.imgur.com/mHHeaFD.png)
Post by: premiumnugz on February 16, 2018, 08:37:51 AM
Post by: N0mad on February 16, 2018, 08:49:44 AM
Or perhaps they've given up, the upper management have skimmed off enough cash to retire on and they're just waiting for the inevitable collapse.
Post by: Flashwit on February 16, 2018, 09:37:17 AM
Post by: dsmart on February 16, 2018, 09:48:38 AM
I guess it really is true. It's way easier to just invent jpeg ships that have imaginary capabilities and sell them for ridiculous sums instead of actually putting stuff in the game.
Yes. That's pretty much it. NONE of the gameplay mentioned for this ship exists. And there is NO indication that they EVER will.
Post by: StanTheMan on February 16, 2018, 10:48:30 AM
I guess it really is true. It's way easier to just invent jpeg ships that have imaginary capabilities and sell them for ridiculous sums instead of actually putting stuff in the game.
So of all the professions and associated ship capabilities that CIG have sold...what do we actually have atm ?
Grabby hands / cargo --- so you can be a trucker
What else ?
Post by: David-2 on February 16, 2018, 11:34:04 AM
Yes. That's pretty much it. NONE of the gameplay mentioned for this ship exists. And there is NO indication that they EVER will.
You know, there's a thing in selling a business to another business called "goodwill". It's an intangible, but it has value.
I wonder if that's what CIG is really selling to consumers. Some kind of intangible. Maybe not "goodwill", but "good times". And I'm not talking about JPEGs. I'm talking about the hours and hours and hours of absolutely fine theorycrafting and argumentation that backers enjoy on reddit and youtube.
I mean, we're here all focused on non-delivery of a game but maybe we're the ones who are blind. Maybe we need a different frame. CIG's sold $175M of talking in the last 6 years, while keeping 100s of talented people employed doing ... well, whatever they're doing ...
And don't get hung up on the fact that they claim to be selling a game when they're actually just selling a nice bunch of topics for people to chew the fat over. After all, Mazda says they're selling "Zoom Zoom" but everybody knows they're just selling cars to take you to the store or work and nobody minds that.
And that's why it doesn't matter that this "ship" is for "gameplay" that doesn't exist nor is there sign it will ever exist in the "game". The theorycrafting is running wild right now, and that's what they're actually selling. Those backers over there are having great fun, and we're over here missing the point.
Post by: dsmart on February 16, 2018, 11:41:41 AM
Post by: N0mad on February 16, 2018, 11:45:42 AM
Those backers over there are having great fun, and we're over here missing the point.
Actually, I think we're having fun here because we understand that point.
The idiots on Reddit are under the impression that all their theories will be in the game one day.
Post by: dsmart on February 16, 2018, 11:54:36 AM
Actually, I think we're having fun here because we understand that point.
The idiots on Reddit are under the impression that all their theories will be in the game one day.
Yes. And that's precisely why the incoming catastrophe is going to be so hilarious.
Post by: dsmart on February 17, 2018, 05:58:18 AM
(https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/340495618868772875/414354191058862110/unknown.png)
Where we're going, we don't need no stinkin' design docs (https://robertsspaceindustries.com/spectrum/community/SC/forum/3/thread/devs-misunderstanding/957638)
6 yrs later; they still have no frigging clue.
Post by: Motto on February 17, 2018, 06:15:54 AM
Post by: N0mad on February 17, 2018, 06:29:04 AM
Post by: jwh1701 on February 17, 2018, 08:02:10 AM
Ho Lee Crap!! I don't even...
Where we're going, we don't need no stinkin' design docs (https://robertsspaceindustries.com/spectrum/community/SC/forum/3/thread/devs-misunderstanding/957638)
6 yrs later; they still have no frigging clue.
The game is still alpha so we cannot get them to much of a hard time for not having nailed down such a complex game mechanic as player death. CIG is doing things that have never been done before like player death and will take time to get it right.
It would be so much easier just to spout this nonsense then try and keep trying to inform people of the truth. Sometimes I want to post this in spectrum over and over like a mindless drone to every question from backers to see what would happen. I'm constantly mystified by these threads that they do not blink and eye over such poor project management. In cig videos I routinely see what appears to be game / programming flow charts, it makes me wonder are these even real or just backer eye candy.
Post by: jwh1701 on February 17, 2018, 08:19:41 AM
https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/comments/7y5ou2/star_citizen_and_squadron_42_staff_grows_to_475/
https://www.dualshockers.com/star-citizen-squadron-42-staff-475-employees/
Post by: dsmart on February 17, 2018, 04:52:21 PM
This posted over at reddit that they are still increasing employee count.
https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/comments/7y5ou2/star_citizen_and_squadron_42_staff_grows_to_475/
https://www.dualshockers.com/star-citizen-squadron-42-staff-475-employees/
It's nonsense. We're actually discussing this right now on SA.
https://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3800238&userid=0&perpage=40&pagenumber=3770#post481388819
Post by: jwh1701 on February 18, 2018, 08:32:39 AM
It's nonsense. We're actually discussing this right now on SA.
https://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3800238&userid=0&perpage=40&pagenumber=3770#post481388819
Thank you for the link they seem to believe its all lies as well. My thoughts are why would they risk lying on something that might could be verified?
Post by: dsmart on February 18, 2018, 09:57:20 AM
Thank you for the link they seem to believe its all lies as well. My thoughts are why would they risk lying on something that might could be verified?
LOL!! You are aware that they are used to being lied to, right?
Post by: N0mad on February 18, 2018, 10:04:12 AM
Post by: jwh1701 on February 18, 2018, 12:15:29 PM
LOL!! You are aware that they are used to be lied to, right?
Ya LOL, they certainly seem to glaze over no matter what happens. But I always believed the more you tell the harder things will get. I really believe they cannot keep up the false pretenses something has to give sometime. But then again I found only one thread and two comments on spectrum expressing displeasure concerning the state of the game and the new ship sale.
Post by: dsmart on February 19, 2018, 06:14:55 AM
Post by: dsmart on February 19, 2018, 01:22:24 PM
Quote
Calling All Devs - Persistence andScammingScanning
4:30 - Remember all that stuff chris said? We can backpeddle that anytime we want because making games is hard https://youtu.be/BIJtzjUsf08?t=238 (https://youtu.be/BIJtzjUsf08?t=238)
4:50 - 'no plans to implement multiple character slots in 2018' https://youtu.be/BIJtzjUsf08?t=292 (https://youtu.be/BIJtzjUsf08?t=292)
8:00 - I can't tell you when mining or salvage is coming but its in game right now just disabled. https://youtu.be/BIJtzjUsf08?t=509 (https://youtu.be/BIJtzjUsf08?t=509)
9:50 - Any news at all about the Banu Merchant? Uhh bad news guys its not being worked on at all atm. We need more RESOURCES https://youtu.be/BIJtzjUsf08?t=587 (https://youtu.be/BIJtzjUsf08?t=587)
12:20 - "I'm a shill, I'm a shill" https://youtu.be/BIJtzjUsf08?t=736 (https://youtu.be/BIJtzjUsf08?t=736)
15:50 - Soon we'll have a form for getting a CIG employee on your podcast https://youtu.be/BIJtzjUsf08?t=948 (https://youtu.be/BIJtzjUsf08?t=948)
Post by: dsmart on February 20, 2018, 06:44:38 AM
http://dereksmart.com/forums/reply/6239/
Post by: StanTheMan on February 20, 2018, 07:24:16 AM
The reality is that Backers have paid Roberts to train himself (in the most inefficient and arrogant way ) to be in a position to try and develop an MMO of yesteryear in three time the time it would have taken an actual MMO developer to have done the same.
Along the way he has lied about what he is doing, what he can do and his and his teams level of expertise whilst slagging off the rest of the industry.
Dishonest, self serving C^^T !
Post by: dsmart on February 20, 2018, 07:26:59 AM
Post by: the_wolfmann on February 20, 2018, 07:29:23 AM
Let me take a step back and see if I got this right. They are doing a first-pass just now...?! Weren't they working on their mega-sharding system all this time? So at first it seems there is supposed to be one server per geographical region (US, EU, etc) that handles all the people in the specific game region (whatever dumb names CRobblers came up for their shithole procgen crapfests)? But what happens when they launch this crap and everyone wakes up in their wankpods? This game might as well go into the Guiness records for negative FPS counters... That's where the multiple instances of Stanton come into play. Essentially they're trying the water for the instanced approach after finally realizing it's impossimble for them to develop whatever they dreamt up in their pipe dreams. Then why bother with sub-regions of a solar system... unless that's the only way to mitigate the piss poor performance the game has right now?
Fuck this game and anyone that buys into this kind of bullshit as some proof that the game is being properly developed by an experienced team.
Post by: N0mad on February 20, 2018, 07:34:18 AM
Programmers are expensive and take a long time to get things done. The more programmers you have, the less money Chris has for yachts, and the stuff they do can't really be shown to the backers, it's not exciting.
But artists, they're less expensive, and even better they can make lots of shiny renderings and tech demos with which to wow the backers. Which means more money for yachts, and more money from backers.
The inevitable result is: your game looks great, but runs like shit. Well done Chris.
Post by: dsmart on February 20, 2018, 08:07:21 AM
Seriously?? That's probably the most amateurish first-pass implementation they could've come up with in terms of network scalability. There are so many disadvantages and I can in no way see them bridging this up to their "final" end-game implementation without starting from scratch... Just another example of them trying to keep appearances with the masses.
Let me take a step back and see if I got this right. They are doing a first-pass just now...?! Weren't they working on their mega-sharding system all this time? So at first it seems there is supposed to be one server per geographical region (US, EU, etc) that handles all the people in the specific game region (whatever dumb names CRobblers came up for their shithole procgen crapfests)? But what happens when they launch this crap and everyone wakes up in their wankpods? This game might as well go into the Guiness records for negative FPS counters... That's where the multiple instances of Stanton come into play. Essentially they're trying the water for the instanced approach after finally realizing it's impossimble for them to develop whatever they dreamt up in their pipe dreams. Then why bother with sub-regions of a solar system... unless that's the only way to mitigate the piss poor performance the game has right now?
Fuck this game and anyone that buys into this kind of bullshit as some proof that the game is being properly developed by an experienced team.
Yes. All of that. It's fucking hilarious.
Post by: dsmart on February 20, 2018, 02:21:21 PM
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DWa4HzDWsAA3ke7.jpg)
Post by: David-2 on February 20, 2018, 04:25:23 PM
[Damn, just snorted Diet Coke out my nose, just rereading that after typing it. It stings!]
Post by: dsmart on February 20, 2018, 04:30:31 PM
Not sure things are as dire as you think. Server meshing is on the schedule for Q4 this year!. That's only 10 months out ...
[Damn, just snorted Diet Coke out my nose, just rereading that after typing it. It stings!]
:emot-laffo:
Post by: dsmart on February 20, 2018, 04:40:31 PM
Quote
A: We've never said that it would. In addition to which, a distributed OS like SpatialOS doesn't solve that problem. Whether we used SpatialOS or our own spatial partitioning system it's important to understand the differences between horizontal and vertical scale-out.
Horizontal scale-out is the ability to support a bigger world. With a bigger world you can also support more players. So long as they're spread out. As soon as players start to cluster in one location you're talking about vertical scale-out, which is a bigger problem to solve as you're fighting physics.
As players gather in the world, the load on the individual servers as well as your clients at home increases. We can procedurally sub-divide the server around that location in order to lessen the load, but at some point, there's so many processes running on individual servers that the network traffic and latency actually starts causing the simulation to perform more poorly. That's why it's easier to get 100,000 players in a single world than 1,000 players in a single neighborhood.
And - even if we could subdivide the servers enough to solve the back-end problem - could your PC process the client-side load of updating and rendering 1,000 players on-screen?
In the end, there's a lot of work to do to optimize CoE, but the hardest optimization problems aren't solved through horizontal scale-out or even sub-dividing the world into smaller and smaller chunks. It's solved through understanding of the game mechanics and experience optimizing client engine code like UE4 - something we have experience with.
Post by: Bubba on February 20, 2018, 07:45:53 PM
Post by: GaryII on February 21, 2018, 02:50:20 AM
LOL!! Someone made a pretty version. Meanwhile, it's now Feb 20th and 3.1 which is supposed to be out by 03/31, has 19 tasks pending, with only 1 completed.
My SC dev forecast for year 2018:
History will repeat itself in 2018...in reality SC will have yearly content patch like in 2017..
So in summer 3.1 will be released, that will contain minor content additions some fixed bugs and even more new bugs..
in xMas holiday 3.2 will be released, that will have more content and even more new bugs...
btw SQ42 promised roadmap for 2018 is still MIA...so no progress for SQ42 in 2018?!
Funding in 2017 was on small decline so in 2018 it should take bigger hit...
Post by: N0mad on February 21, 2018, 06:46:45 AM
I'm sure there are plenty of people happy to have them spend all that time polishing their helmet. Hell, watching some of them on YouTube, I'm pretty sure the SC community has quite a few professional helmet polishers who spend hours a day honing their craft, and they are quite clear, contrary to "professionals" like those quoted here, who couldn't lift a feather to their skills, that polishing one's helmet (or hood) is a time-consuming and iterative process.
Perhaps they could add helmet polishing as a mini game that players can do in their sleep pods?
Post by: GaryII on February 21, 2018, 06:58:22 AM
Perhaps they could add helmet polishing as a mini game that players can do in their sleep pods?
so I guess CR now is playing this game:
Post by: dsmart on February 21, 2018, 07:01:23 AM
My SC dev forecast for year 2018:
History will repeat itself in 2018...in reality SC will have yearly content patch like in 2017..
So in summer 3.1 will be released, that will contain minor content additions some fixed bugs and even more new bugs..
in xMas holiday 3.2 will be released, that will have more content and even more new bugs...
btw SQ42 promised roadmap for 2018 is still MIA...so no progress for SQ42 in 2018?!
Funding in 2017 was on small decline so in 2018 it should take bigger hit...
Sounds about right.
Post by: Flashwit on February 21, 2018, 10:58:21 AM
Post by: dsmart on February 21, 2018, 11:28:47 AM
I have to say, they've really pushed themselves into a corner with all these ship sales. I would have to imagine that literally anything else is more important than further work on Ships/Vehicles and Weapons/Items but they keep selling the damned things.
That's how they raised all this money. So yeah, it makes sense for them to keep doing that.
Post by: dsmart on February 21, 2018, 03:36:52 PM
Chris Roberts on Multiplayer, Single Player and Instancing (https://robertsspaceindustries.com/comm-link/engineering/12770-Chris-Roberts-On-Multiplayer-Single-Player-And-Instancing) - 2012
Quote
So the “magic” of Star Citizen’s multiplayer design is how we combine a persistent universe with a more traditional (and easier to implement) temporary multiplayer “battle” instance.
The way it works is that the persistent universe server, which we’re calling the Galaxy Server, keeps track of all players’ assets, group relationships and locations inside the Star Citizen universe. As the Galaxy server isn’t handling any realtime action it can handle our complete player base, which right now would be about 45,000 players, but is designed to be able to scale to millions if need be. The other key thing the Galaxy Server does is dynamically place players based on their location, skill level, alignment and player versus player (PvP) preference into battle instances. Think of a “battle” instance like a Battlefield 3 multiplayer session or a World of Tanks Battle with the key difference that the selection of players is done transparently and is “in fiction”.
:emot-laffo:
It's incredible to me that back in 2015 I said backers were going to be paying for a Gold box, but would end up with a cardboard box - with no lid.
Suckers spent $180M on a game which we now know, in the right hands, could have been built for about $20M.
Post by: Backer42 on February 21, 2018, 04:12:19 PM
Post by: dsmart on February 21, 2018, 05:14:45 PM
Crytek could have made it with 2 million Euros.
I believe it.
Post by: David-2 on February 21, 2018, 07:46:52 PM
So here he is six years ago describing how their "Galaxy Server" is being built (he's speaking in present tense) but we know that from the very first release to now that isn't what they were building at all. Otherwise why would they have been blathering for years about network culling and all the rest of the networking B.S.? (And promising networking improvements in 2.0, 3.0, 3.n ...)
And it isn't even like it's in some video you have to dig up by watching hours and hours of old vids. It's right there in a text on his site!
I've been watching this trainwreck on this site for 2 1/2 years now and I'm still here with my mouth hanging open at the amazing blatant lying and incompetence going on - and that's just CIG, doesn't even begin to describe what's going on with the backers ...
Post by: dsmart on February 22, 2018, 05:49:44 AM
It's really amazing - when he says "As the Galaxy server isn’t handling any realtime action..." he's describing peer-to-peer. Like you've said that ED was built to do in the first place.
So here he is six years ago describing how their "Galaxy Server" is being built (he's speaking in present tense) but we know that from the very first release to now that isn't what they were building at all. Otherwise why would they have been blathering for years about network culling and all the rest of the networking B.S.? (And promising networking improvements in 2.0, 3.0, 3.n ...)
And it isn't even like it's in some video you have to dig up by watching hours and hours of old vids. It's right there in a text on his site!
I've been watching this trainwreck on this site for 2 1/2 years now and I'm still here with my mouth hanging open at the amazing blatant lying and incompetence going on - and that's just CIG, doesn't even begin to describe what's going on with the backers ...
Yes, all of that. And yeah, he's been lying this whole time.
Post by: N0mad on February 22, 2018, 04:38:38 PM
It's a space sim, so what do they spend all their time doing? Trying to make a real life simulator for all the NPCs on the ship. They pre-script all the tech demos, but when it comes to the game Chris Roberts needs it to be like The Sims. Just look at the debug info at 32.00 - each NPC has stats like morale, reliability, virtue, hygiene, sustenance and fatigue. No wonder they haven't released the game yet if they're making everything this complicated.
Also pushing the ship sales hard at the end I noticed.
Post by: dsmart on February 22, 2018, 04:41:25 PM
SQ42 update! I can't believe these guys:
It's a space sim, so what do they spend all their time doing? Trying to make a real life simulator for all the NPCs on the ship. They pre-script all the tech demos, but when it comes to the game Chris Roberts needs it to be like The Sims. Just look at the debug info at 32.00 - each NPC has stats like morale, reliability, virtue, hygiene, sustenance and fatigue. No wonder they haven't released the game yet if they're making everything this complicated.
Also pushing the ship sales hard at the end I noticed.
More insanity.
Post by: dsmart on February 22, 2018, 06:12:41 PM
Post by: Motto on February 23, 2018, 10:11:09 AM
Post by: dsmart on February 24, 2018, 08:24:21 AM
Needless to say, the tribe - who actually don't have a fucking clue what that optimization actually means or entails, are upset.
https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/comments/7zrndp/so_bind_culling_pushed_to_32_dammit/
9 months ago:
(https://i.imgur.com/M0mLOXK.png) (https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/comments/69hsgj/network_bindunbind_moved_out_of_30_schedule/)
13 months ago:
(https://i.imgur.com/wdejlQL.png) (https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/comments/5mkcxl/network_bind_culling_will_261_improve_fps_in_the/)
15 months ago:
(https://i.imgur.com/JQvyMBC.png) (https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/comments/5e7tu0/what_is_this_blind_culling_that_the_new_schedule/)
Those chuckleheads are in for a surprise.
1) I am 99% certain that CIG won't be able to implement it. At least not as planned. They will probably half-ass it, and it won't make any difference either way. As a result, both performance and networking will continue to suck and be sub-par. But they're totally making an MMO though.
2) I wrote about this MONTHS ago. Yet they're somehow shocked its been moved again. It was first scheduled to be coming in 2.6 - back in 2016.
DEC 2017 http://dereksmart.com/forums/reply/6078/ (http://dereksmart.com/forums/reply/6078/)
OCT 2017 http://dereksmart.com/forums/reply/5949/ (http://dereksmart.com/forums/reply/5949/)
JUL 2017 http://dereksmart.com/forums/reply/5501/ (http://dereksmart.com/forums/reply/5501/)
As I've written before, CIG is once again just making up bullshit names for standard tech so that it looks like they're actually inventing new things. And backers get to foolishly think they're paying for innovation.
Whatever it is CIG is wanting to do, here is a 2014 article that explains Network Traffic Culling (https://www.gamasutra.com/blogs/MikeHergaarden/20140716/221237/Network_Traffic_Culling.php).
UPDATE
Clive has responded on Spectrum (https://robertsspaceindustries.com/spectrum/community/SC/forum/50259/thread/what-is-the-technical-reason-to-push-bind-culling-/977329)
Quote
We decided it was necessary to push Bind Culling back for the following reasons:
1) Progress has been slower than we had hoped, partly due to taking longer than anticipated to convert the last few places in the code that were using old-style Aspects and RMIs to Serialized Variables and Remote Methods, and then completely strip those legacy systems from the network code. That was a necessary step because we didn't want to have to implement Bind Culling for both the old and new systems. I'm not embarrassed to tell you there was some dancing and a few air-punches on my part when the last line of that old code was deleted.
2) There wouldn't have been enough time left before 3.1 for the network and gameplay programmers to deal with the issues we’re expecting the introduction of Bind Culling to cause.
3) Bind Culling would result in clients streaming entities in and out based on distance, but without asynchronous Object Container Streaming it was always a gamble whether the resulting synchronous loading stalls would be worse or better than what players experience now. The plan was to get Bind Culling working, see what the impact on player experience was and then make the call whether to turn it on for 3.1.
4) Range-based Serialized Variable Culling was our backup plan in case Bind Culling didn't make it into 3.1. You may remember that we were working on SV Culling for 3.0 but that it wasn't quite ready in time. Well, it was the first thing we tackled when we came back at the start of the year, and has been working in our development branch for several weeks now (not the branch 3.0.1 was taken from). SV Culling already gives us a lot of the performance gain we would expect from Bind Culling so the urgency for the later has dropped significantly.
5) The network team is needed for other tasks that have increased in priority since they were first added to our schedule.
Post by: Spunky Munkee on February 24, 2018, 11:58:56 PM
Post by: dsmart on February 25, 2018, 07:32:06 AM
Quote
We decided it was necessary to push Bind Culling back for the following reasons:
1) Progress has been slower than we had hoped, partly due to taking longer than anticipated to convert the last few places in the code that were using old-style Aspects and RMIs to Serialized Variables and Remote Methods, and then completely strip those legacy systems from the network code. That was a necessary step because we didn't want to have to implement Bind Culling for both the old and new systems. I'm not embarrassed to tell you there was some dancing and a few air-punches on my part when the last line of that old code was deleted.
2) There wouldn't have been enough time left before 3.1 for the network and gameplay programmers to deal with the issues we’re expecting the introduction of Bind Culling to cause.
3) Bind Culling would result in clients streaming entities in and out based on distance, but without asynchronous Object Container Streaming it was always a gamble whether the resulting synchronous loading stalls would be worse or better than what players experience now. The plan was to get Bind Culling working, see what the impact on player experience was and then make the call whether to turn it on for 3.1.
4) Range-based Serialized Variable Culling was our backup plan in case Bind Culling didn't make it into 3.1. You may remember that we were working on SV Culling for 3.0 but that it wasn't quite ready in time. Well, it was the first thing we tackled when we came back at the start of the year, and has been working in our development branch for several weeks now (not the branch 3.0.1 was taken from). SV Culling already gives us a lot of the performance gain we would expect from Bind Culling so the urgency for the later has dropped significantly.
5) The network team is needed for other tasks that have increased in priority since they were first added to our schedule.
And this was less than 24hrs after I posted this scoop
https://twitter.com/dsmart/status/967575127587262464
Quote
Star Citizen 3.1 was due out end of March. I am hearing that it's way behind schedule.
Also, they can't get network traffic culling working - at all. So don't expect it anytime soon - if ever.
They also sent out Evocati notice that they may increase it to 2000 invites.
Post by: N0mad on February 25, 2018, 08:51:57 AM
I get that it's meant to be some form of network data culling so that distant objects are updated less frequently - much like the sort of thing Dual Universe is trying to achieve (although they also incorporate server meshing). However I can't help but feel that it's the latest in a long line of bullshit technical terms from CIG to disguise the fact that they can't do it and to give the zealots something to talk about and be hopeful for.
PS. whilst Culling may be helpful for the client, isn't the server still having to cope with updates for a horrendous number of entities and then keep track of which client needs to know about them - so no performance gains on the server side and a slow sim speed (which is why Dual Universe does it with server meshes)?
Post by: David-2 on February 25, 2018, 12:26:28 PM
On the other hand it is totally believable (i.e., totally expected) that what's in the build on March 31st isn't anything like what they said was going to be in the build ...
Post by: N0mad on February 25, 2018, 04:00:13 PM
Post by: krylite on February 25, 2018, 06:52:34 PM
SQ42 update! I can't believe these guys:
It's a space sim, so what do they spend all their time doing? Trying to make a real life simulator for all the NPCs on the ship. They pre-script all the tech demos, but when it comes to the game Chris Roberts needs it to be like The Sims. Just look at the debug info at 32.00 - each NPC has stats like morale, reliability, virtue, hygiene, sustenance and fatigue. No wonder they haven't released the game yet if they're making everything this complicated.
Also pushing the ship sales hard at the end I noticed.
I hope ED ends up doing some form of mmo-rpg for eventual spacelegs for pcs and npcs. Of course the big difference is ED already has a well working space & FTL spaceship simulator already where they've been careful to gradually add on what they can over time with chapter 1 Beyond dropping on Tuesday cleaned of gamestopping bugs despite the trollish naysayers on the ED forum.
cig-arretts just needs to fold, go bankrupt or go away. This farce has gone on long enough. Sickening to see the guy next to Sandi doing the "pledge" pitch again in that ATV at the end. It's like cig/CR pretending to keep "pace" with ED promising new features that long time ED players dream of, yet they haven't made it past the first lap on the track overlapped by ED several times over. History has long passed SC by and it's only the shitizens keeping this leaking lifeboat afloat.
Post by: Kyrt on February 25, 2018, 08:17:19 PM
I hope ED ends up doing some form of mmo-rpg for eventual spacelegs for pcs and npcs. Of course the big difference is ED already has a well working space & FTL spaceship simulator already where they've been careful to gradually add on what they can over time with chapter 1 Beyond dropping on Tuesday cleaned of gamestopping bugs despite the trollish naysayers on the ED forum.
I can't see that happening.
There is simply no need for it. FD is well aware of the limitations of a life simulator, and it (like other games) puts in shortcuts to avoid certain aspects of reality that don't enhance the game.
Space Legs is something I think will happen within Elite. In many ways, it is easy to do. The problem is having the content and mechanics necessary to make it worthwhile. To justify adding it. I don't think CIG has done that with SC. There is a lot of makework style content put in simply so CIG can justify the effort used in spacelegs.
FD is not likely to pout the same focus on Space legs, or the same level of resources, because space legs isn't going to have the same degree of importance to ED as it does for SC. So while SC will force you into travelling to the bar, ED will let you use HoloMe or a phone call. ED won't make you spend 30 minutes walking through corridors to get to your ship - it'll let you step there immediately.
Thing is - while Space Legs has value, and is worth adding, we just need to look at games like EVE and even SC to show the limitations of the system and how it doesn't really work all that well. As FD stated, it'll be like developing an entirely different game, with different requirements and balancing concerns and gameplay mechanics and more. Space Les ha a lot to offer.....but it's also important to realise it cannot offer everything people seem to want.
Post by: David-2 on February 25, 2018, 08:41:42 PM
Just look at the debug info at 32.00 - each NPC has stats like morale, reliability, virtue, hygiene, sustenance and fatigue.
You know what? This is an actual sign that they attempted at one point to actually implement a subsumption AI. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subsumption_architecture) This is the kind of thing you'd need for that.
Not that I believe for a New York minute that we'll ever see it ... but they did have dreams!
Post by: DemonInvestor on February 25, 2018, 11:39:04 PM
You know what? This is an actual sign that they attempted at one point to actually implement a subsumption AI. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subsumption_architecture) This is the kind of thing you'd need for that.
Not that I believe for a New York minute that we'll ever see it ... but they did have dreams!
My impression still is that CRoberts is a lot like Peter Molyneux, though he doesn't feel any business constraints.
And as always i'm baffled as to them realizing computers won't be able to handle all those physics objects, while not backpedaling on the physical simulation of trade good crates and such.
Post by: Bubba on February 26, 2018, 12:16:33 AM
Post by: N0mad on February 26, 2018, 01:22:33 AM
My impression still is that CRoberts is a lot like Peter Molyneux, though he doesn't feel any business constraints.
And as always i'm baffled as to them realizing computers won't be able to handle all those physics objects, while not backpedaling on the physical simulation of trade good crates and such.
Molyneux made original games, often because nobody else was crazy enough to give those sorts of things a go, but he still made it work. Chris Roberts has never had an original idea in his life - everything he does is a pretty basic rip off of something else.
Post by: dsmart on February 26, 2018, 11:05:52 AM
You know, I think Clive said everything with #5: new tasks were added and given higher priority. Having a boss incapable of distinguishing between the visionary and the hallucinatory, I've had to write that line myself. It's a coded cry for help, for relief from an oppressively incompetent management.
Yes, pretty much.
This whole culling thing isn't clear to a lot of backers. There are two parts.
One is culling of render target entities.
The other is culling of network traffic entities which happen to be within the render target entities also.
To wit:
- don't render anything the client/player can't see or interact with. e.g. > 5km away
- don't send network traffic to any client/player if they can't see or interact with entities within that < 5km packet
The sad reality is that these two features are so rudimentary and the mainstay of ALL 3D graphics & multiplayer games, that CIG even making them a big deal (serialized variables was the Red flag, right off the bat) is testament to the difficulty (I don't want to say incompetence, as that would be unfair to the devs) they are facing building this game.
To me, the surprising thing is that they have the "ex-Crytek Gods" at F42-GER, and somehow for the 3+ years those guys have been there, they somehow didn't think this was a big deal. Now they're trying to shoehorn it into their Frankengine.
It's ironic that Crytek's latest game, Hunt, which uses the current version of the engine, still has sub-par multiplayer.
The lols will come when backers see that both serialized variables and network traffic culling get implemented (LOL!) and they still have piss-poor network performance. In fact, I have to believe that the engineers KNOW that it won't make much difference, and that's why they keep kicking the can down the road. The day they release a build with that stuff in there, and it's "meh", we're looking at 3.1 lols like we did when 3.0 Jesus Patch landed. And we're still loling at that one.
The hilarious part is that, Lumberyard doesn't support what they are looking to doing because Amazon are apparently focused on achievable session based games which is why they advise NOT to develop an MMO with it or be ready to change a ton of things.
I have written about Gridmate before, but one of the Lumberyard devs wrote this book which was released back in Nov 2017. Multiplayer Programming in Amazon Lumberyard using Gridmate (https://www.amazon.com/dp/1973282526/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_ep_dp_OzoKAb3CY35EQ)
Quote
GridMate is Lumberyard's networking subsystem. GridMate is designed for efficient bandwidth usage and low-latency communications. You can synchronize objects over the network with GridMate's replica framework. GridMate's session management integrates with major online console services and lets you handle peer-to-peer and client-server topologies with host migration. GridMate also supports in-game achievements, leaderboards, and cloud-based saved games through third-party social services such as Steam.
Sure, you don't have to use Gridmate, but for a multiplayer game, that's like buying a Ferrari and taking out the engine, replacing it with the engine from a BMW.
I said this right through 2017, across several articles, it doesn't matter if/when they implement all this "new" tech they're calling serialized variables, network bind culling etc - the difference won't be noticeable because they're building an MMO. Good luck with that server mesh.
Post by: dsmart on February 26, 2018, 01:35:54 PM
Quote from: Preen Dog
QuoteD_Smart posted:
The lols will come when backers see that both serialized variables and network traffic culling get implemented (LOL!) and they still have piss-poor network performance. In fact, I have to believe that the engineers KNOW that it won't make much difference, and that's why they keep kicking the can down the road. The day they release a build with that stuff in there, and it's "meh", we're looking at 3.1 lols like we did when 3.0 Jesus Patch landed. And we're still loling at that one.
It could be even worse than that. They could be genuinely trying to cull traffic, and it could help, but the lack of concrete design makes the task impossible. The same reason why nothing else works.
For example, lets say you wanted to do something simple, and not update a player about other ships that are > 5km away.QuoteNetwork lead: Hey Chris, we're putting in distance culling and we need to know how the long range scanning system will work. What rules decide if a ship can be detected in a scan? How often must these updates happen? What information shows up in the long range scan; position, rotation, shields, energy signatures, what? Is the scan continuous or is it a one-shot thing? By the way, you told us last week that you wanted long range torpedoes. Does the player need to see ships that can fire these? Also, should the Acme Indefatigator particle beam show up past 5 km?
CR: (Handwaving commences)The long range sensor shows you the location and the general composition of other ships and asteroids if you want more information you can focus on one area to get higher resolution but other ships might pick up these emissions you also have passive sensors that might see a spike in energy readings from weapons fire or ships exploding far away but this depends on your own heat and RF output and objects that are blocking your scan the torpedos are cloaked but if you have a SMXGT-17 military sensor you can see them in your frontal arc whenever the torpedo makes a turn but if your wingman has a transponder you can see his ship anywhere a data-link signal can reach which relays all the information about his contacts to your sensor display remember the datalink is blocked by hydrogen clouds unless they have the dish array get it done by next week because we need it for the anniversary sale of the... (handwaving intensifies until airborne. CR tumbles down the hall bouncing off the walls and ceiling)
Network lead: Right away.
First of all, let me offer this emote to you for bringing up something that I keep forgetting about.
:perfect:
Now to the fun (dev) part.
Even though my 5km range was hypothetical, it serves to highlight precisely how they have fucked up this whole thing by - you guessed it - doing a 64-Bit precision hack.
I wrote about that, amid much derision by our Shitizen friends.
09/26/2017: Ben Parry (https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php/355735-Star-Citizen-Thread-v6?p=5946123&viewfull=1#post5946123)
11/22-2015: my article (http://www.dereksmart.org/forums/topic/star-citizen-year-four/#post-1812)
11-20-2015: Here on SA (http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3748466&userid=164480&perpage=40&pagenumber=13#post452967428)
Now they've got huge numbers. And it's space.
Because ANY implementation of a radar scan HAS to know the position of an entity being scanned, that location data not only needs to be obtained, stored, and updated - in real time - but that CANNOT be done without actually having accurate position data for the entity being scanned.
You can't have an object that is 6km away, not show up on scanners that have a range of 5km. Sure, the object may exist, but the scanner has to not only cull out that info, but it HAS to rely on ACCURATE position and state changes for that object - REGARDLESS - of whether or not it is "in scope".
Why?
Fucking :lol: ....because, consider this. ObjectX (target in the world that's likely to be scanned)
pos1.client1: 4km from ObjectX // receives data
pos2.client2: 5km from ObjectX // receives data
pos3.client3: 6km from ObjectX // receives no data
Now imagine that there are 8 clients at pos1 and 8 at pos2; all those clowns in their chariots are going to need info about ObjectX.
It doesn't matter that another 8 clients at pos3 aren't going to get anything; and the performance is negligible to the extent that it's not even noticeable - at all.
The fact remains that in a situation where you have to plan for your max clients (e.g. 24 clients in a capped Star Citizen instance) to ALWAYS be within range of EVERYTHING at ANY TIME, you haven't actually solved the problem with serialized variables or network traffic culling. No. All you've done is mitigated the issue to the extent that you are hoping that your clients remain spread out over time.
And that is why these games have instances. Which are client-capped.
And that is why, even in games with the best multiplayer, when you have a group of clients in generally the same place, doing all kinds of shit, there are performance issues from both rendering and networking aspects.
So imagine a group of SC clients in their chariots doing combat with less clients within their "bubble". Then something (combat, trade run etc) forces them all to be within a 5km range of each other - and the radar has to be accurate etc. If it's not, guess what happens. Yes, you guessed it. They would not see objects on radar, they would go to a last known location and nothing be there etc.
Trust me when I tell you this: The minute those devs enabled this, EVERYTHING is going to break.
And here you were concerned that they can't do ramps or functional doors.
Like I said, I have to believe that the devs KNOW what's going to happen and that it's going to break more things and then NOT solve the problem. That's why they keep kicking this crucial can down the road.
ps: object container streaming is the same bullshit.
Then I was reminded of this...trust me, it's hilarious AF
Quote
Quote from: Virtual CaptainBack in 2014 when Chris and backers were figuratively intoxicated with dreams they thought they would be able to code all of this in non-Speed of light communications. I of course heard about it was after the fact but that still stands out to me as one of the most absurd dreams.
2014 Chris: "in our universe there is no FTL communication. Basically communication happens at the speed the ship can travel or a radio wave can travel in system." (https://youtu.be/Q4OB9Yfo-0Q?t=161)
2014 Chris: "The way that the communications are gonna work is that it travels our in-fiction communication's speed. Which means that when you're in-system and someone beams a message, it gets beamed at the speed of light, and it gets beamed to a relay station, or a message station. This is in the structured universe where the UEE runs it and there's a lot of infrastructure. So one of these stations is right by a jump point so it gets all the information and then it will launch out a message drone or a messenger ship. It goes through the jump point to the other side, where there's probably another relay station, it's collected, then the data gets beamed across to another relay station and so-on and so-forth if it has to go multiple systems." (https://youtu.be/PCG4dZ1mYRw?t=461)
Not surprisingly that didn't work out, I think a dev said something or all the talk about Spectrum made it clear. Communications were going to be instant even across long distances.
Post by: jwh1701 on February 26, 2018, 02:45:10 PM
Post by: dsmart on February 26, 2018, 02:48:01 PM
Great write up Derek its enjoying to see the how engines work. If CR did poach top notch crytek devs, would they not know long before hand the engine is unworkable for the stretch goals? Why move to ly as I believe they had to of know before switching the goal as unattainable. CR and the inner circle know they are scamming but what about f42 and supposedly all the devs? Many times during my life and reported back to management the development plan was not possible in the time allotted with out major concessions. I cannot help but wonder what if any feedback is coming from development are they just saying yes to everything to keep their jobs and pulling a scam as well?
Because Chris didn't start out building an MMO.
Post by: Bubba on February 26, 2018, 02:51:00 PM
As far as network structure goes, over twenty years ago, ww2 flight si m s solved the problem by having the serve send to reach client only the closest 32 player positions. Sure, if too many players got too close, you'd get the weirdness, but that's where you balance things through design, to spread people out.
The point is that you build the game around the network code, and doing it the other way around might work for a session-based 16-person shooter, but not for a MMO
Post by: dsmart on March 03, 2018, 09:24:21 AM
https://www.twitch.tv/videos/234462833?t=56m20s
You know, the same schedule they were releasing 3 months ago (https://mailchi.mp/cloudimperiumgames/meet-the-defender-of-the-banu-140549?e=cb99c469f2).
Quote
"Squadron 42 will be the focus of our Holiday Livestream in December, where we will preview some gameplay and share our roadmap for its completion."
Post by: jwh1701 on March 03, 2018, 09:35:29 AM
Latest AtV. Now they're still "considering" releasing the SQ42 schedule.
https://www.twitch.tv/videos/234462833?t=56m20s
You know, the same schedule they were releasing 3 months ago (https://mailchi.mp/cloudimperiumgames/meet-the-defender-of-the-banu-140549?e=cb99c469f2).
Listening to them explain how the tasks work and how it may not include everything was the best lol.
Always an out for them to delay and delay.
Post by: justme on March 07, 2018, 01:37:46 AM
atv special, that was announced for mid january will come up this week, for reasons.
what reasons? :D
maybe one reason is, ppl start asking, if all this culling and object container streaming is
such a complicated and revolutionary thing, they are telling everybody :D
Post by: Spunky Munkee on March 07, 2018, 03:28:58 AM
I just wish there was a way to prosecute him criminally for his fraud masked as a game creation company. When he made all of those outrageous claims it had to be lies. He had no way to fulfill what he promised. Incompetence explains a lot but people had to had told him that it was highly unlikely that he could create "his vision".
Not that I give a crap about the die hard backers, they will get what they deserve for their stupidity and hubris. Robbers needs to be made an example of for the good of the gaming community.
Post by: Kyrt on March 07, 2018, 12:36:22 PM
I just wish there was a way to prosecute him criminally for his fraud masked as a game creation company.
He has done stuff I would say qualifies as "shady" and it certainly appears that he is engaged in Hollywood accounting in an effort to artificially inflate his costs, but I don't think he's done anything that would qualify as "illegal". Of course, I ain't a lawyer.
Quote
When he made all of those outrageous claims it had to be lies. He had no way to fulfill what he promised. Incompetence explains a lot but people had to had told him that it was highly unlikely that he could create "his vision".
On the contrary - his "vision" (IMO) was achievable. But then he changed the scope.
As for his current vision....to a large degree, I would argue that it too can be achieved, albeit not in the manner in which he is developing things. There are certain constraints that would be a concern - such as 1000 player instances - but he has also taken care to "redefine" terms to suit himself. The base technology and systems and gameplay of his vision is certainly possible - games like ED and CODIW show that - but the manner in which CIG are trying to implement that vision seems less than optimal.
For all that Chris Roberts wants to do things differently, modern games development has developed certain rules and methodologies over the past 30 years because developers want to keep things simple. They want to keep things as bug free as possible. They want to avoid performance issues.
Chris Roberts moving ahead with game development even before his game engine was feature complete arguably helped with marketing and selling the game and raising funds because it gave him something shiny to sell, but it also means actual game development will be much more difficult and expensive, more prone to bugs and performance issues, much harder to adapt and fix. It is akin to building a house and then looking to build the foundations. Sure - you can do it if you throw enough money at it, and you might very well end up with a very nice house but it'll also cost a lot more and take a lot more time to build and be a lot more difficult.
But yes - I'll say Chris Roberts vision was, at least in broad terms, achievable. Which is partially why it is so aggravating that the entire project seems to be turning into a disaster through simple mismanagement and incompetence.
Post by: Spunky Munkee on March 07, 2018, 02:12:06 PM
Perhaps he thought people whoud continue to fund him a Billion dollars to continue his research experiment but I am sure he knew that people would eventually tire once they saw the progress end. The money would slow to a trickle and the project would die. Hey, as long as he got over a million dollars a year (and his worthless wife too) and drug the proccess out as long as possible all was well.
Post by: StanTheMan on March 07, 2018, 06:23:23 PM
There seems to be this common thread that ties Robbers and Ortwin's projects together. They seem to end in disaster, unfinished, with them walkking away with generous paychecks and the remainder is in ashes. THe Original vision of the game, sure, possible. but he was a greedy prick who kept spinning larger and larger stories to a point where he had to have known that with the given tech and programming it was no possible at this time. He was supposed to be a competent game developer, not a carny sideshow huckster promising to amaze and stuptify both young and old alike.
Perhaps he thought people whoud continue to fund him a Billion dollars to continue his research experiment but I am sure he knew that people would eventually tire once they saw the progress end. The money would slow to a trickle and the project would die. Hey, as long as he got over a million dollars a year (and his worthless wife too) and drug the proccess out as long as possible all was well.
Building the house before the foundations isnt the correct analogy because there is no house.
He took out a loan to develop the game then carried on borrowing more on false pretences whilst pissing the money up the wall and lying to gamers.
Post by: dsmart on March 07, 2018, 06:36:59 PM
Post by: dsmart on March 08, 2018, 04:39:49 PM
02-20-2018
http://dereksmart.com/forums/reply/6239/
12-11-2017
http://dereksmart.com/forums/reply/6078/
10-18-2017
http://dereksmart.com/forums/reply/5949/
Right. FF to 38:09
Quote
...we can't really put Bind Culling in because it would break the gameplay. We probably won't see the FULL implementation of Bind Culling in until, as I say, we get Object Container Streaming in. But for us internally we need to get it as soon as possible so we can, we can move on with some of the stuff that we're planning.
Meanwhile, in the schedule
(https://i.imgur.com/tAW9DIR.png)
UPDATE: See SomethingJones write-up (https://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3800238&userid=0&perpage=40&pagenumber=3893#post481988255)
Post by: jwh1701 on March 09, 2018, 12:24:05 PM
LOL!!
That is really well done.
Post by: jwh1701 on March 09, 2018, 12:31:34 PM
Hey, remember that networking fiasco which I chimed in on a few times? And I said that they just can't implement "bind culling" without breaking everything - so they kept kicking it down the road?
Thank you for putting up the information interesting read. Listening to the dev speaking about the bind, serialized, etc he did not seem very confident. I'm struggling to find the words to describe his demeanor. He did not inspire any confidence, I can only assume he been there for sometime but does not display that.
One question that come up with every new video that I cannot wrap my mind around. How many people in these videos, artists, devs truly believe they are working to finish the game? If they are making no real progress but keep going along with the everything is great from leadership do they not see the issues? For the most part they seem sincere but I'm always wondering.
Post by: dsmart on March 10, 2018, 07:04:07 AM
One question that come up with every new video that I cannot wrap my mind around. How many people in these videos, artists, devs truly believe they are working to finish the game? If they are making no real progress but keep going along with the everything is great from leadership do they not see the issues? For the most part they seem sincere but I'm always wondering.
I don't think it matters. Most people in jobs, just do what they're paid to do. Sure, quite a few of them already know that the project is doomed. And they are the ones talking to their friends, leaking things etc.
Post by: dsmart on March 10, 2018, 07:25:41 AM
https://mailchi.mp/cloudimperiumgames/new-look-for-the-newsletter
Post by: jwh1701 on March 10, 2018, 08:54:29 AM
Latest newsletter
https://mailchi.mp/cloudimperiumgames/new-look-for-the-newsletter
LOL polishing so soon in the 2nd paragraph, kicking my self for not thinking to recommend action figures in my weekly brainstorming on how to enrich themselves further.
SC dreamers keep calling EA greedy but looking through the newsletter with the merchandising and the $900 aegis pack lol.
Post by: jwh1701 on March 10, 2018, 01:05:06 PM
Reddit thread is goldmine for lunacy. if psychiatrists followed SC supporters posts, I could see universal screening being recommended
:emot-ughh: :
https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/comments/83faib/pacer_update_on_the_crytek_vs_cloud_imperium/
Post by: StanTheMan on March 10, 2018, 06:22:21 PM
ROFLMAO thes Shitizens are good value ...
"He's (Ed..Derek's) a rabid lunatic who wants to see Star Citizen destroyed all because he blames Chris Roberts for stepping on his dick back in 1992."
"Crytek's entire lawsuit so far looks precisely like DS wrote it for them." Damning Derek with praise...
"CIG aren't going to publish their financials online for him to scrutinise so he can finally see how a successful business is run " Im guessing this cu$t didnt go to
Shitizen logic in action
"Practically nobody here knows anything about law and based on what i've read about this case, CIG is in essentially no danger."
Post by: jwh1701 on March 11, 2018, 07:17:40 AM
ROFLMAO thes Shitizens are good value ...
The pic is awesome representation, going to install adobe ps when I get back home and try a few ideas.
Post by: dsmart on March 11, 2018, 07:42:43 AM
ROFLMAO thes Shitizens are good value ...
"He's (Ed..Derek's) a rabid lunatic who wants to see Star Citizen destroyed all because he blames Chris Roberts for stepping on his dick back in 1992."
"Crytek's entire lawsuit so far looks precisely like DS wrote it for them." Damning Derek with praise...
"CIG aren't going to publish their financials online for him to scrutinise so he can finally see how a successful business is run " Im guessing this cu$t didnt go tobusinessschool.
Shitizen logic in action
"Practically nobody here knows anything about law and based on what i've read about this case, CIG is in essentially no danger."
There are reasons why it's safe to say that only a bunch of illiterate lunatics are now left rabidly defending this train-wreck, and their bad choices.
Post by: jwh1701 on March 11, 2018, 02:42:08 PM
Time for the double :emot-ughh: :emot-ughh:
https://robertsspaceindustries.com/spectrum/community/SC/forum/3/thread/kingdom-come-deliverance-1
Really hope discovery will be public so we can see he has never been a saint.
Interesting:
Darlak Sanis@DarlakSanis
Today at 02:52 pm
CIG and Warhorse Studios partnered a while a go and exchanged techs between the companies.
I know for sure that SC's multi-layer clothing system was given to CIG by WS, but I don't know what WS recieved from them.
SC Funds?
S1rmunchalot@S1rmunchalot
Today at 05:33 pm
Wasn't it one of the kickstarter perks of the high tier backers - you would have your name in the game somewhere? It's one of the perks for Star Citizen pledges and older subscriber rewards. They are obviously playing on the pun we often use about Christopher Roberts - Christopher means "he who holds Christ in his heart". Chris is our savior from the nasty, mean, big publishers with their false and misleading profits. Who said Star Citizen fandom was a cult?
The idea was first mooted in Forbes magazine of all places. Dec 14th 2015. "With $100M In Crowdfunding, 'Star Citizen' May Not Be A Scam, But It Feels Like A Cult" - Paul Tassi)
It's clear that Chris was a high tier backer since we saw him brandishing his steel sword, I wonder how many KC developers are Citizens? There must be some.
Post by: dsmart on March 12, 2018, 06:40:34 AM
Previous lunacy has been topped by another thread.
Time for the double :emot-ughh: :emot-ughh:
https://robertsspaceindustries.com/spectrum/community/SC/forum/3/thread/kingdom-come-deliverance-1
Really hope discovery will be public so we can see he has never been a saint.
Interesting:
Darlak Sanis@DarlakSanis
Today at 02:52 pm
CIG and Warhorse Studios partnered a while a go and exchanged techs between the companies.
I know for sure that SC's multi-layer clothing system was given to CIG by WS, but I don't know what WS recieved from them.
It's rubbish. These guys make shit up out of whole cloth. Anytime you see "I know for sure", and there is no cited source about something that should be public, you can bet that it's pure and utter bullshit. How does this comment (https://robertsspaceindustries.com/comm-link/transmission/13577-Kickstarter-Kingdom-Come-Deliverance) amount to anything that moron stated?
CryEngine, like most top tier engines, has always had a clothing system. It's not rocket science.
Post by: jwh1701 on March 12, 2018, 08:38:00 AM
Post by: dsmart on March 12, 2018, 03:43:10 PM
One thing I could not find is the supposed high tier backer comment concerning getting you name in KD? Did they put Chris's name in for the shout out or did he buy his way into KD?
You can check the tiers on the KD Kickstarter page. Depending on your pledge level, you can be in the game.
Post by: justme on March 13, 2018, 01:06:44 AM
seems legit, that cig said to wh, where to find that freeware-tool. :grin:
Post by: N0mad on March 20, 2018, 09:29:23 AM
As if they really need to ask.
Some really salty comments though !
Post by: dsmart on March 20, 2018, 05:46:02 PM
Hilarious new thread on SC reddit: When SC is finally released, are ships still going to be purchasable for real cash? (https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/comments/85l5gr/when_sc_is_finally_released_are_ships_still_going/)
As if they really need to ask.
Some really salty comments though !
Yeah, those clowns really don't get that the game - as designed - is P2W. What incentive does CIG (or any company) have to change that when they keep buying ships and in-game items for real cash?
Post by: N0mad on March 22, 2018, 02:11:24 PM
- it's an online multiplayer game
- you can walk around in first person, but then pilot a ship
- you can walk around the ship
- you can multi crew ships with your friends
- you can explore uncharted lands
- you can visit outposts
- you can do contracts and increase your reputation with mission givers
- you can engage other players in gun fights or ship to ship combat
- you can even board other player's ships and steal their cargo
- you can customise your character's appearance and buy cosmetic items
- you can pick up cargo boxes, then put them down anywhere you like on your ship
Sound like anything familiar?
ps. it's actually a full game out now
Post by: dsmart on March 22, 2018, 04:47:33 PM
Post by: N0mad on March 23, 2018, 08:09:24 AM
My description was specifically about Sea of Thieves by the way.
Star Citizen is being left behind by the rest of the industry at this point.
Post by: dsmart on March 23, 2018, 06:36:57 PM
https://www.twitch.tv/videos/242002942?t=11m51s
Post by: dsmart on March 23, 2018, 06:49:27 PM
This is an absolute bombshell which cannot be ignored. It basically means that time and time again, whatever schedule and roadmap they've put up in order to appease backers and to keep money coming in, has been pure and utter bullshit. Just as I've been saying for YEARS now.
Also looking to release 3.1 despite the fact that right now, not everything is completed (https://robertsspaceindustries.com/roadmap/board/1-Star-Citizen).
Watch:
Quote
with alpha 3.1 just released to wider testing group in ptu and live release week away our dev teams and designers are looking ahead at alpha 3.2 features and content as part of this we evaluate where we are set priorities and make adjustments while also looking at quality of life issues in the current gameplay we thought it would be useful to get your input on what potential aspects are important to you as far as this goes so look for community poll tomorrow to help us with our roadmap
Then came this...
Hightlights:
11:36 // 3.0 was rushed out
12:36 // 8000 bug's fixed from 3.0 to 3.1
13:26 // 7 yrs later, it's still "early days"
16:20 // 3.2 scope reduction
21:32 // yup, 3.0 was rushed out
23:15 // progress has been slow; even with the number of people they have
29:55 // LOL!! Bind Culling didn't make it into 3.1. Not happy!
42:13 // we have a "full featured" game <-- :emot-lol:
54:08 // Arena Commander needs polish, but don't have workforce to do it; but will improve by year end
Gorf's take :
THE POLL - TEXT & SUBTEXTS
The Spectrum Poll is out and what a picture it paints. On the whole, it’s an uncharacteristically adroit decision that — maybe for the first time in CIG’s history of Community Relations — shows meaningful attempts at proactive engagement on fundamental development choices that matter. (Polling whales to get permission to scope creep doesn’t count as it was a foregone conclusion from the start.)
Chris has misallocated developer priorities for the entirety of the project in his compulsive hunt for the next buck. It’s been asset-centric in the extreme and always bent towards relentless monetization. It’s also seen the constant hijacking of developer hours for crunch binges so as to crank out new marketing demos to serve fundraising purposes to repeat the annual cycle.
The Poll suggests a different permission-seeking is underway. A pragmatic, pre-emptive one seeking to reduce the scale of their Road Map deliverables in 2018, because despite the dramatic deliverable reductions 3.0 already was forced to undergo in 2017, the revised 3.x plans that shook out from that are still too ambitious to realistically commit to.
It only makes Chris’s Gamescom 2016 overpromising sins all the more egregious in hindsight, and suggests Roberts concocted that fictional roadmap completely without any consultation from his development team. At all. The poll also makes clear that the core gameplay professions of the 2012 Space Sim pitch (Mining, Salvage, etc.) still have not commanded sufficient developer resources to be robust by Year 6. Textual bloviations scripted years back to convince the naive that professions were already architected do not constitute game design. It seems certain CIG’s efforts will, like Cargo, feel like a fidelitous execution of a Year 1 effort because no developer/game design was tasked with trying to flesh out a working prototype long ago. Why waste time fleshing out and perfecting the fundamentals when there are so many trivialities always commanding Roberts attention and so many monetization efforts more deserving of developer allocation?
I don’t mean to carp too much because on balance, it is a positive change and as one not rooting for the failure of CIG, I applaud it. It is not surprising at all to have heard Roberts talk about morale improvements coming about as a result of their latest efforts. What he did not say and probably can not say is that morale suffered because his priorities have been so misguided and his leadership so lacking...
Anyway, here is the Poll if it hasn’t already been posted...
Quote
Alpha 3.2 Feature Survey
As the team prepares to release the Alpha 3.1 patch of the Persistent Universe to a wider selection of backers, we wanted to take an opportunity to use what we’ve learned from this first quarterly release and reassess development priorities, with feedback from you, the players.
If you’ve been following along with our public Roadmap, the producers, directors, and leads have prioritized the introduction of major profession-based mechanics (like mining, salvage, and manual repair) into each quarterly release, along with improvements to gameplay features introduced in Alpha 3.0 and 3.1 (like quantum travel and service beacons.) While these mechanics have the potential to introduce new ways to play and expand the functionality of certain ships, they require extensive development resources and take time to fine-tune to make sure they balance with the other mechanics that already exist in the game.
Part of what we learned through this latest release cycle was that existing elements in the game weren’t getting adjustments and improvements that would improve usability and polish because the resources that would do this work were focusing on implementing the brand new mechanics on the Roadmap. As we feel like this has been short changing the current game experience, we’ve decided to adjust our efforts to dedicate some of our resources to improve and expand the existing features, while making sure that new profession-based mechanics are as polished and playable as possible. Basically, we want to ensure that what’s there is as refined and fun as it can be, before we add too much more.
That’s where you come in.
As we shuffle the features and mechanics, we wanted to know which features you are most excited about seeing implemented, improved and refined. Below you’ll find brief descriptions of the feature improvements on our schedule, we invite you to weigh in on which of these features you would rate as top three priorities to get into the game.
Feature Improvements
Quantum Linking
This feature gives players the ability to sync up with their friends when making quantum jumps. Aside from making grouped multi-ship travel possible, Quantum Linking also helps if you are interdicted, as the friends you brought along with you can help. This system will be used in tandem with AI or player-created missions through the service beacon, so the people hired to help will be linked to you when they jump.
Improved Interdiction
Work on this feature will create a variety of different interdiction scenarios for players, as well as provide the opportunity to trap other players and AI Non-Player Characters using a Quantum Jammer that can be added as a ship component or deployed in a self-powered buoy, like a mine.
Service Beacon Improvements
The Service Beacon will expand and evolve to include new contract types, additional filters, and more feedback precision. AI characters will be able to interface with the system so that they too will be able to request help and provide assistance to others, which will in turn increase both how much of this type of “immediate” content we can offer at any given time, as well as the likelihood that someone – whether player or Non-Player Character – will be drawn to respond to your calls for support.
First Tier of Guilds & Associations
We are going to create member associations within the Universe that give players different benefits. These will ultimately include the Bounty Hunter’s Guild, Merchant’s Guild, etc., but there will also be member\-based services, themed to fit different player types. For example, the United Wayfarers Club provides repair and refuel assistance for pilots broken down in space and also grants discounts for these services at CryAstro.
Party System
These improvements will improve the player’s ability to create groups, allowing you to team up with friends to join the same game instance and cooperate on jobs and missions.
Team Chat
Improvements to the team chat system that will polish communication between players and make the experience more robust and intuitive. Work on this system will also begin to factor in the incorporation of Spectrum into the game.
Economy/Shopping UI Experience
The feature includes the implementation of Shopping Kiosks in the stores and increased variation of available products, including ship items and weapons not physically available to display (or even buy) in stores.
Item 2.0 Ship Systems and Weapons
Feature work would include finalizing Item 2.0 functionality that, allows them to overheat, misfire and suffer critical failures based on factors such as increased wear or damage. It would also introduce deeper functionality to upgradeable items so new power plants, shields, coolers, stealth and comms/radar all make a marked difference to the ship’s performance based on how they are configured.
FPS AI Combat
The first stage of getting combat AI into the Persistent Universe. This would expand mission types by introducing the risk that an AI could be waiting to ambush you on a distant moon, or in a hulk drifting in space.
Select your highest priority, second highest priority and third highest priority. You can also select one profession-based mechanic (salvage, repair, refuel) that should be prioritized for 3.2, however, mining will still have the highest priority and you cannot vote on that decision
SomethingJones transcript of key parts
Quote
Star Citizen: Reverse the Verse LIVE - Alpha 3.2 Feature Survey w/ Chris Roberts
March 23rd, 2018
@07:50
Chris Roberts:
3.1 ah, is definitely performing better that 3.0 and ah, you know, that's going to continue on as we work on some of our more LONG TERM things we talked about, which, you know, OBJECT CONTAINER STREAMING will help with ah... sort of MEMORY... we've got ASYNCHRONOUS SPAWNING that we're getting CLOSER to have working PROPERLY
It's... it's... quite... COMPLICATED to get working because the game wasn't built... ah... it was just built to... create things on the main THREAD and it... it... so... you know people PROGRAM things assuming they can touch anything at any one time which you can't do when you're on, um... MULTIPLE THREADS ehm.
So... and it's SUCH a big codebase that it requires a lot to retrofit it and/or change things out, uh, REFACTOR them to be a NEW THING.
So all those will make like... so for instance if you PLAY and some AI spawn in there'll be a HITCH because they have to LOAD IN and there's a STALL on the main thread until things LOAD IN... but ah, LONG TERM that will go away because that will just sort of... they'll LOAD IN in the BACKGROUND when they're READY, the main thread will be NOTIFIED and BAM! They'll be TURNED ON so...
So wuh... so we're putting all these things in place and so I'm feeling really quite good about it, we've added ah... some NEW FEATURES like the SERVICE BEACON STUFF, ah... there's been a lot of the sort of UI IMPROVEMENT and POLISHES that I think people have noted and LITTLE THINGS like the, eh... you know... PROCEDURAL... GROUND... ah... so you know, sort of, ah...
...FOLLOWING, ah, you know... I've noticed quite a few people posting VIDEOS... I'm LIKING THAT, this is GOOD!
Aahh... and ah... we've tried to... ahm... work in, ah, some things to, ah... you know... IMPROVE ah, like INTERDICTION and stuff like that, ah... and... and... ah...
So GENERALLY it's going pretty well, this will be our first one and uh, we know we've gotta EARN the... the... the BELIEF or the TRUST of everyone ha-haha!
Uh, uhrr, uhmm... so you know we say we're doing QUARTERLIES we actually do QUARTERLIES, ehm, so... this one will be a GOOD STEP, the next one will be a GOOD STEP, ahm... but aahh... so it's GOING GOOD.
One of the reasons why we're doing this SHOW here is, ah... we... we've ah... you know... the best way to do this is as we've planned out a ROADMAP but obviously you just sort of check in where you're at, when you sort of get your RELEASE out, so like, OK...
THIS is what we're going to do for 3.2...
THIS is what we're going to do for 3.3...
...3.4...
All the THINGS that we want to... FIX or change that we didn't foresee when we first did this roadmap... ah, or you know, the things that we wanna address for QUALITY OF LIFE or things we could do in the game to make the gameplay right now feel BETTER... ah, because ultimately you know... I mean the AMOUNT of functionality in the game we have right now, if it all works together and works well, is more that a lot of released games.
I mean, you know... SEA OF THIEVES just came out and, you know, we have like MORE VARIETY OF MISSIONS, a HELL OF A LOT MORE SHIPS, a BUNCH MORE STUFF that you can do, and a LOT MORE AREA TO PLAY IN
But you know THEY spent a lot more time polishing some of their... their BASIC STUFF... I know people complain that they still want more FEATURES and that, cos gamers are generally like, 'I WANT MORE! I WANT MORE!' all the time... But I mean, we've been talking internally about, you know, Star Citizen is not a SPRINT it's a LONG... ha-haha! It's... It's... very... you know... it's more than a MARATHON you know, it's more like a WALK AROUND THE WORLD
Quote
Star Citizen: Reverse the Verse LIVE - Alpha 3.2 Feature Survey w/ Chris Roberts
March 23rd, 2018
@11:38
Chris Roberts:
If you look at 3.0 we put a VAST amount of things into it, but we didn't spend enough time making sure the BASE STUFF was working well, so what you had was a whole bunch of new FEATURES but a lot of stuff that used to work in 2.6 or before that ended up not being as good or being BROKEN... so we've been fixing a bunch of that in 3.1 but we've still got more to do, ah, so you know, we've got things that we wanna... ehh... ADDRESS and... you know... uhm, you know... HOW IT FEELS WHEN YOU FLY AROUND, we're not... we're not...
IFCS and the flight model still has a bunch of work we wanna do, ah, you know... the FEEL of FPS moving around, again, same stuff... so uh, eh... you know... it's a... uh... sort of... LONG TERM SLOG
@12:37
Chris Roberts:
So that's the phase we're at, this is what we'll do every single, ah... we sort of do it as we're coming up to the release, we're assessing it just to make sure all the teams are ALIGNED, ah, you know, our NEW PRODUCTION PROCESS is working REALLY WELL, we've, you know... we've FACTORED into a sort of much more sort of TEAM BASED AGILE SCRUM, ah... and... our sort of VELOCITY in terms of, ah... FIXES and ehh, ahh... and RESOLVING ISSUES is much much better, I mean we've... I think we've resolved something like 8,000, um... uh... uh... um... during... 3.1? I can't... quite... around... and then... and I think it was like 15,000 for the whole of 3.0 which was basically a year.
@13:27
Chris Roberts:
I think the team's working together, uhm... ah... cos we've really... we WORK to try to put everyone together like HERE'S THE PROGRAMMERS, HERE'S THE DESIGNERS, it's like... hey, you know, you're VEHICLE FEATURE TEAM ONE, you're VEHICLE FEATURE TEAM TWO, you're GAMEPLAY... TEAM
And you've got the DESIGNERS and the ENGINEERS and the ARTISTS and we're actually putting them all together.
And we're trying to CO-LOCATE people so the teams are sort of oriented in the various studios, we're not having them spread between timezones as much as we used to.
@16:25
Chris Roberts:
And we'll also get some feedback on some of the bigger LONGER TERM professions, what's INTERESTING or what's the MOST IMPORTANT to you guys, MINING's already been in progress, it's started at the beginning of this year, I know that in our roadmap it says SCHEDULED but it's already been IN PROGRESS. That should be changing in the next, uh... ehr... the... the next ROADMAP, I don't know if it'll be this Friday but the one afterwards.
But we've been working on that, there's a lot of infrastructure issues in terms of making sure the resources are mapped on the planets and we can persist them across the instances. And we can generate it and handle all the stuff. We're making very good progress on that, I think it's going to be a very cool, uh... FEATURE.
Post by: N0mad on March 24, 2018, 03:02:21 AM
So have they just added a ship without adding any of the gameplay it was actually designed for?
If you ever need proof that Star Citizen is just a giant walking-around-looking-at-the-shiny-graphics simulator - then this ship is it. Still, I've noticed the fanboys loving it.
Post by: jwh1701 on March 24, 2018, 07:35:18 AM
Post by: David-2 on March 24, 2018, 08:53:57 AM
Quote
"It's... it's... quite... COMPLICATED to get working because the game wasn't built... ah... it was just built to... create things on the main THREAD and it... it... so... you know people PROGRAM things assuming they can touch anything at any one time which you can't do when you're on, um... MULTIPLE THREADS ehm.
So... and it's SUCH a big codebase that it requires a lot to retrofit it and/or change things out, uh, REFACTOR them to be a NEW THING.
So all those will make like... so for instance if you PLAY and some AI spawn in there'll be a HITCH because they have to LOAD IN and there's a STALL on the main thread until things LOAD IN... but ah, LONG TERM that will go away because that will just sort of... they'll LOAD IN in the BACKGROUND when they're READY, the main thread will be NOTIFIED and BAM! They'll be TURNED ON so..."
From time to time people have said that CR hired only very inexperienced devs. But people saying that didn't actually offer proof. And I thought that was ridiculous because it was so stupid - you obviously hire a mix of experience and skill.
But no, not true. Anyone who has programmed a UI - Windows, Mac, Linux, Android, iOS - any kind of UI not just a game, knows, and I mean knows that you do as little on the main thread as possible. This has been known for years and years. Decades. Literally, decades.
The main thread runs the UI. Updates all the things you need to display. At 60fps (mobile rates, not apparently gaming rates which are apparently faster) you get 16.6ms to do everything you need to do per frame. And that is very little time. You seriously can't do anything on the main thread that is not directly update related if you want to achieve any sort of fluidity or if you're at all interested in consistent frame-to-frame rates (lack of which leads to horrible judder).
Everything is created on the main thread? They spawn AIs on the main thread? Something, whatever it is, has to LOAD IN on the main thread?
I. Can't. Even.
When I say anyone who has programmed a UI knows this - I mean everyone.
So it is true: CR hired no programmer who knew anything. From the beginning.
Post by: N0mad on March 24, 2018, 09:18:36 AM
He likes to throw in some technical terms to make the fans think he knows what he's doing.
Post by: David-2 on March 24, 2018, 09:31:58 AM
I'm not really sure you can deduce very much from the nonsense that comes out of Chris's mouth.
He likes to throw in some technical terms to make the fans think he knows what he's doing.
Oh I know. Still it's fun to suspend disbelief for a moment and consider what he says as if it were true.
Because first, it's like using reductio ad absurdum to show that he only ever talks pure nonsense, and second, because it's hilarious.
Post by: krylite on March 24, 2018, 11:09:11 AM
42:13 // we have a "full featured" game <-- :emot-lol:
42:30 + minutes
What a farce. He's talking about fitting progressive "modules" to the ships, even mentioned "powerplants" (in ED), like it's a pioneering development, something ED already has for years. Seems like he'll never stop touting new features and developments as "gamechangers" , ripped off ideas from whatever games have been released since SC's first KS, to feed the shillizens' denial malaise.
Post by: dsmart on March 24, 2018, 12:11:25 PM
42:30 + minutes
What a farce. He's talking about fitting progressive "modules" to the ships, even mentioned "powerplants" (in ED), like it's a pioneering development, something ED already has for years. Seems like he'll never stop touting new features and developments as "gamechangers" , ripped off ideas from whatever games have been released since SC's first KS, to feed the shillizens' denial malaise.
Yes, pretty much.
Post by: Aya Reiko on March 25, 2018, 03:14:39 AM
Guess the game:And getting torn to shreds by reviewers and the court of public opinion. The biggest complaint; No content.
- it's an online multiplayer game
- you can walk around in first person, but then pilot a ship
- you can walk around the ship
- you can multi crew ships with your friends
- you can explore uncharted lands
- you can visit outposts
- you can do contracts and increase your reputation with mission givers
- you can engage other players in gun fights or ship to ship combat
- you can even board other player's ships and steal their cargo
- you can customise your character's appearance and buy cosmetic items
- you can pick up cargo boxes, then put them down anywhere you like on your ship
Sound like anything familiar?
ps. it's actually a full game out now
Still doesn't change a thing, though.
Post by: N0mad on March 25, 2018, 04:43:02 AM
And getting torn to shreds by reviewers and the court of public opinion. The biggest complaint; No content.
Still doesn't change a thing, though.
I know, but my point still stands. CIG aren't doing anything original any more. Everyone else is doing those things better.
Sea of Thieves is an interesting case study for the genre. By "no content", what people really mean is not being able to unlock new skills / ship and weapons - because when you look at every other game, the grind is still there but you get something to aim for. That's why the grind is acceptable because the next unlock will always make your character better - at least that's what players think. If the developers had made a progression system then people would have plenty of content to try and unlock but Rare would be accused of being unfair on new players. Even if they had servers where people of similar skill level were matched then it would still be handing higher skill level players an advantage over others.
Post by: satoru on March 25, 2018, 08:22:34 PM
So you can have the appearence of content or at least 'fun' without there being 'progression' with respect to your character, player, skills, etc
Post by: dsmart on March 26, 2018, 04:30:46 AM
Then there was this (http://www.dereksmart.com/forum/index.php?topic=9.msg3456#msg3456).
Post by: dsmart on March 26, 2018, 06:01:13 AM
Quote from: Sarsapariller" post="482513413
So that reclaimer ship is playable, for some people I guess. Walkthrough/verbal fellation video here. Kind of looks like they've hacked it into the arena commander map instead of loading it in the main game. Commentary below:
[video type="youtube"]WeyimocPIOs[/video]
@0:44- So about half of the ship is the landing gear. Deploying it immediately breaks the particle effects on the engines.
@1:27- Oh they've started adding "Auto-turrets" since it became apparent that nobody will ever crew turrets on their ships. I wonder if they've actually got the turrets working? My money is on no.
@4:00- Massive salvage arm! Doesn't work. But it's gonna be really cool! <Proceeds to imagine how cool it will be>
@5:00- Tractor beam operator seats! Don't work. <Proceeds to imagine how they will work>
@6:00- Scanning station! Remote Turrets! Don't do anything. <Talks about what these might be for>. An engineering station! Doesn't do anything. But look at all those particle effects in the grinder!
--I'm beginning to detect a theme here. --
@7:15- Escape pods, that don't work
@8:35- Drooling over detailed wires in the elevator shaft. I honestly do not understand how any of these sperglords can give a shit about the fidelitous loose wires when nothing on the ship works. He shows off the turret access ladder- "Unfortunately I can't go in it right now"
@9:30- Gravity generator, I guess this makes the goo.
@9:50- "This is the drone room. Now they don't have the drones in here yet..." OH YOU DON'T SAY. Look, an operator seat for a thing that isn't in the game! Thrilling.
Anyway this goes on for 30 minutes but I'm bored now. Fuck you, Star Citizen.
Post by: jwh1701 on March 26, 2018, 08:13:15 AM
3:45 Listen about honest demo
Post by: dsmart on March 27, 2018, 05:42:42 AM
(https://i.imgur.com/p2gQKCx.png)
Post by: StanTheMan on March 27, 2018, 06:21:45 AM
Quote
Gorf
It only makes Chris’s Gamescom 2016 overpromising sins all the more egregious in hindsight, and suggests Roberts concocted that fictional roadmap completely without any consultation from his development team.
That is way too generous.
Chris lied and lied and lied.
There is absolutely no way he didnt know he couldn't deliver what he promised.
Post by: dsmart on March 27, 2018, 07:24:07 AM
That is way too generous.
Chris lied and lied and lied.
There is absolutely no way he didnt know he couldn't deliver what he promised.
Hey, it's almost as if I was saying this all along, and even before the bullshit roadmap showed up back then. :emot-colbert:
Post by: satoru on March 27, 2018, 05:58:42 PM
Hey, it's almost as if I was saying this all along, and even before the bullshit roadmap showed up back then. :emot-colbert:
Well I mean he's made 150 million+ with the same nonsense so far, why change your business model when its working.
They'll be siphoning out money through their shell companies as expenses, and by the time Crytek gets through with them and the project crashes and burns, there will be no 'money' left.
Post by: N0mad on March 28, 2018, 01:09:55 AM
Well I mean he's made 150 million+ with the same nonsense so far, why change your business model when its working.
They'll be siphoning out money through their shell companies as expenses, and by the time Crytek gets through with them and the project crashes and burns, there will be no 'money' left.
I can't wait for the financials to be revealed during discovery, even if they aren't made public, I've no doubt that Skadden will have a team of accountants who can work out where all the money has gone - they'll want to try and extract as much of that as possible for themselves and Crytek after all.
Post by: dsmart on March 28, 2018, 05:56:05 AM
:emot-lol:
First comment:
Quote
Game Over man, Game Over... I'll never be allowed to play SC anymore now... Is impossible to fight anyone at 5 FPS... The Interdiction is already a shit. And now you finish to f*** us... FIX THE PERFORMANCE before add REQUIRED COMBAT!
Post by: N0mad on March 29, 2018, 03:44:56 PM
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DZfHZ2xWkAABnab.jpg:large)
If this proves to be true, and I'd imagine that the limits would only apply on patch release day when demand spikes, then this means CIG must be really tight on cash. This should be setting off alarm bells for any backers, but most will just ignore it.
Post by: jwh1701 on March 29, 2018, 06:18:50 PM
Just seen your tweet:
If this proves to be true, and I'd imagine that the limits would only apply on patch release day when demand spikes, then this means CIG must be really tight on cash. This should be setting off alarm bells for any backers, but most will just ignore it.
LOL I went and found it, someone did a good job on this one, if it had been true that would have been pretty funny.
https://robertsspaceindustries.com/spectrum/community/SC/forum/4/thread/star-citizen-alpha-3-1-0m-ptu-738258-patch-notes
Post by: dsmart on March 29, 2018, 08:03:55 PM
LOL I went and found it, someone did a good job on this one, if it had been true that would have been pretty funny.
https://robertsspaceindustries.com/spectrum/community/SC/forum/4/thread/star-citizen-alpha-3-1-0m-ptu-738258-patch-notes
Seems like quite a few people thought it was true, instead of just another Goon meme. Just goes to show how much of a laughing stock Star Citizen is.
Post by: N0mad on March 29, 2018, 09:29:35 PM
Seems like quite a few people thought it was true, instead of just another Goon meme. Just goes to show how much of a laughing stock Star Citizen is.
Man, those goons. and it's not even April 1st yet
Post by: jwh1701 on March 31, 2018, 08:53:54 AM
What still confuses me is he says the ships makes the game and I would agree with him the look
cool. But there is no game and when I hear this from people I just don't get it.
Post by: dsmart on March 31, 2018, 11:24:44 AM
Looking around on youtube for people doing any performance testing, ending is hilarious.
What still confuses me is he says the ships makes the game and I would agree with him the look
cool. But there is no game and when I hear this from people I just don't get it.
They're willing to dream. That's all there is to it. There's no game. It's just a glorified tech demo that looks good.
Post by: Spunky Munkee on March 31, 2018, 11:53:37 AM
Post by: jwh1701 on March 31, 2018, 03:14:37 PM
https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/comments/88l5e7/the_game_is_nowhere_near_stable_enough_for/
Post by: David-2 on March 31, 2018, 04:02:10 PM
Lot of players reporting crashes, and terrible stuttering post update.
https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/comments/88l5e7/the_game_is_nowhere_near_stable_enough_for/
Those SC players are completely ungrateful! CIG finally adds a viable game mechanic - cooldown period for a ship death with an expedite feature - and nothing but bitching about it!
Post by: helimoth on March 31, 2018, 04:16:27 PM
I wonder if an 'expedite pass' is the next thing they plan on selling :D
Post by: jwh1701 on March 31, 2018, 07:22:50 PM
Those SC players are completely ungrateful! CIG finally adds a viable game mechanic - cooldown period for a ship death with an expedite feature - and nothing but bitching about it!
:emot-lol: so true.
Post by: Noztra on April 01, 2018, 08:23:09 AM
You have 0 gameplay, no core features are functional, but you are working on procedural cuisine and doing an entire show about it.
If everything is important, nothing is important.
Post by: StanTheMan on April 01, 2018, 12:05:37 PM
I like their priorities.
You have 0 gameplay, no core features are functional, but you are working on procedural cuisine and doing an entire show about it.
If everything is important, nothing is important.
When you eat different foods you shit different shit...that is going to affect your ability to fly etc too..
Post by: dsmart on April 01, 2018, 12:43:22 PM
It's clear that none of those chucklefucks have ever developed an MMO.
Who fuck is going to pay aUEC (which I believe can also be bought for cash), THEN wait 47 fucking mins for their chariot?
Post by: Spunky Munkee on April 01, 2018, 12:51:26 PM
Post by: DemonInvestor on April 01, 2018, 12:51:54 PM
I like their priorities.
You have 0 gameplay, no core features are functional, but you are working on procedural cuisine and doing an entire show about it.
If everything is important, nothing is important.
Not impressed as long as he isn't going for voxel based eating together with that :emot-smuggo:
Then again isn't that most likely an aprils fool joke?
Post by: helimoth on April 02, 2018, 03:55:24 AM
Post by: dsmart on April 02, 2018, 06:09:45 AM
blatantly trying to force people to buy multiple ships. chris is making it very clear here that his speeches in the past about not needing higher tier packages with lots of ships was an absolute crock. I have a feeling that this will be tip of the iceberg and moving forward anyone who attempts to play SC without a large fleet of ships is going find themselves having a pay-to-not-wait experience very similar to that of some mobile phone game shovelware.
Yup. That's precisely what I was talking about in this Twitter thread (https://twitter.com/dsmart/status/980532096061108224).
Post by: dsmart on April 02, 2018, 07:13:35 AM
Post by: David-2 on April 02, 2018, 08:18:59 AM
Quote
- Performs other related duties as assigned, including some personal requests.
- Assists in food orders for Executives during crunch times.
Annnnnd ... the backers can be happy their contributions to the BDSEE are paying for:
Quote
- Maintaining various files and filing systems for the supported attorneys.
Another thing he learned in Hollywood is to always travel with an entourage:
Quote
- International travel may be required as a part of this role
Post by: David-2 on April 02, 2018, 08:34:38 AM
I mean, what's with the mobiglass on your arm - leave aside how clunky that is - there are some tasks you can apparently do only with that and some tasks you absolutely can't do with that. How does that happen in a designed universe?
E.g., to get started you've got to run down infinite hallways to get to that big room where you can use a console to order up your ship then you find where your ship will be placed and run down more infinite hallways to get there - why not sit up in your wank pod, order a ship via the mobiglass (like calling out for a pizza, huh?), get told right away where your ship will be, and head straight there?
E.g., all ships have this set of 2 or more screens and shitloads of buttons and stuff to drive the ship with ... but can you use it to navigate to waypoints? Apparently, no.
DS is always talking about "sunk cost fallacy" - this is another instance of it. First they invented that ship-ordering room and all the animations and stuff involved with running around to get there and then to get to the pad. Then much later on they pulled the mobiglass UI out of their ... minds. But do they make it consistent with the universe they're imagining by realizing all the different ways it would be used? Get rid of that useless room on the space station for ordering ships, get rid of all those ship consoles and let you have a more spectacular view of the galaxy? Well, no! They put in hundreds of man years of work into those things (which cost them millions of dollars) ... so they're sure as hell not going to get rid of that stuff!
*That was merely a rhetorical question, BTW. I know the answer.
Post by: N0mad on April 02, 2018, 09:27:55 AM
Here's a question I've been meaning to ask: Does this game actually have a designer? Someone to think things through to make sure the end result is consistent and fun and so on?
You know it all goes through Chris. All the devs mention about having Chris approve their work at some point (in slightly hushed tones). The problem is Chris is the sort of guy who prioritises his visual fidelity ("I want that pixel green, not blue") above anything actually resembling gameplay. Besides, all the gameplay design decisions are now focused on extracting more cash from the whales who are actually trying to play the game (no stealing other ships / charging expedition fees to get your ship back etc) rather than making it fun. It's not a game any more, it's a very pretty tech demo designed & marketed to persuade dim whales to buy more ships. The good thing about having Chris as the person making the design decisions is that you know who to blame when it finally collapses.
Post by: dsmart on April 02, 2018, 09:58:46 AM
Here's a question I've been meaning to ask: Does this game actually have a designer? Someone to think things through to make sure the end result is consistent and fun and so on?*
You mean besides His Holiness, Chris Roberts? Probably not. And even so, everything would need to be run through his Vision Filter first anyway.
Post by: dsmart on April 02, 2018, 01:34:53 PM
oh-ok
https://robertsspaceindustries.com/spectrum/community/SC/forum/3/thread/cig-please-implement-full-persistence/1048937
(https://i.imgur.com/TF4jxFk.png)
Post by: Kyrt on April 02, 2018, 02:15:53 PM
Here's a question I've been meaning to ask: Does this game actually have a designer? Someone to think things through to make sure the end result is consistent and fun and so on?*
Short answer.....no.
Long answer...CIG have released some information of the gameplay loops and mechanics that they hope to implement.
The most involved and detailed I can recall relates to mining where they details several positions that could be filled out by the multi-crew of a mining ship. You had the pilot who would concentrate on driving the ship deep into an asteroid belt - the best ores were deeper in where the ores were more tightly packed, but that also made it more difficult to pilot through the field. You had the surveyor who determined which asteroids were the best to mine, and who located the best mining spot for ore extraction. You had the extractor who controlled lasers and mining equipment to extract as much ore as efficiently and as quickly as possible, with fewer impurities or contaminants and who switched tools depending on ore type and purity and danger. You had the refiner who took the raw ore and who refined it into purified ingots. And you had the cargo master who took those ingots and stored them.
The trouble was that it became very obvious that they were struggling to determine the associated gameplay for all of these roles, especially since CIG have hyped up multicrew a lot. Multicrew only really works if each crew member has something meaningful to do and the sad truth is....even in a game like Star Citizen or Elite, activities like Mining really only generate enough gameplay for one player. (semi)"Detailed" as it is, all of CIGs entire mining scheme could be achieved by one player. Anything else is make work, extra complexity for the same of complexity.
Looking at the rest of CIGs ideas on game design and mechanics....you do have to wonder where the fun went. Detail is all well and good, but in a game, detail MUST bend to gameplay. Too much detail is counterproductive. Too much realism is bad.
Post by: dsmart on April 02, 2018, 04:53:56 PM
SomethingJones has the latest (https://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3800238&pagenumber=4044&perpage=40#post482750964) on yet another promise that was totally a lie.
LET'S TALK ABOUT THE DOCKING
March 2016: Ship to ship docking was scheduled to begin development in or shortly after March 2016. Docking and undocking from an Idris was working in March 2016.
Chris Roberts, 10FTC ep78, March 7th 2016:
"Craig Gransell who's done the sort of landing system, he's still got some... landing system stuff that he's wrapping up for Squadron FORTY TWO and some... enhancements for Star Citizen and that, this will probably be the next... TASK to get this working it's not THAT difficult, I mean basically you just kinda wanna get... it's just like the landing system really you get in a certain area and then you say Ok... DOCK and then we'll just sorta bring you in and CONNECT you and the Merlin will be attached to the Constellation and then, hopefully you can get out and you should just be able to enter into the... back of the Constellation so ah, I do wanna (incoherent mumble) cos it's ah, NOT... that difficult technically to get working it's really just people have had a whole bunch of other things they're working on first, ah for instance you know we... ah... you know... HAVEN'T SHOWN IT YET, but you know we have an IDRIS FLYING AROUND and you can land inside it and take off inside it and, em, walk around it and it's pretty cool so um, ah, that was sort of the higher priority and we've still got some stuff to do on the bigger ships in terms of ah....
May 2017 Neither docking nor ship landing are implemented, both are in the planning stage. Station docking is in the 'long term plan'. You won't be able to perform ship to ship docking.
Matt Sherman CIG:
You won't be docking to something that could suddenly have movement capability. There will be long term plans for letting a ship dock to a stationary location. The plans for landing small ships/vehicles/etc to larger ships is coming along, we have a solid enough plan for it, though everything is always subject to implementation.
(https://i.imgur.com/1JVCYD8.png)
April 2018 What has been said previously about docking has been "misunderstood" or has "changed" since it was said. You will be able to perform ship to ship docking.
Star Citizen: Culling All Devs - Ship Docking, Scanning and Cockpit Customization
@ 6:32
Lando:
These are questions that are both related to some... some... "old school mis-perceptions about Star Citizen", you know, things that were said in previous episodes of Around The Verse or on Spectrum, what-not... they were maybe MISUNDERSTOOD at the time, or things that have CHANGED since then, so these... these are questions that we'd wanted to address for a WHILE, they've COME UP, they've been VOTED UP...
What about ship to station docking? Ship to ship docking? What's the deal there?
Kirk Tome:
Uh... ship to ship and ship to station docking, ah... were PLANNED for quite some time, unfortunately they're ah... a little bit in the BACKLOG so we haven't had an opportunity to work on them... but they are in the WORKS and we do plan to not only allow to, um... SHIPS to... dock with EACH OTHER, but also to dock on specific ports on stations. Um, and... this is primarily to allow the transport of both personnel and cargo... using some, ah... PHYSICAL MEANS to transport those commodities in between ah... uhh... eh... ahhh.....
Post by: dsmart on April 03, 2018, 05:50:12 AM
7 yrs + $180m (other people's money) + 5 studios + 500+ devs
Brought you this (one of the latest ships implemented in 3.1)
Post by: jwh1701 on April 03, 2018, 06:35:53 AM
If you were wondering why the Star Citizen Reddit and official Spectrum forums were on fire after the 3.1 release.
7 yrs + $180m (other people's money) + 5 studios + 500+ devs
Brought you this (one of the latest ships implemented in 3.1)
:perfect: :emot-lol: pure comedic genius using the old wonka scene for that.
My question would be why are they having such persistent issues with minor things, doors, clipping, elevators?
Post by: StanTheMan on April 03, 2018, 07:08:28 AM
The non existent "game" is an Old School mis-perception"
He must be talking about you again Derek !
I wonder if this terminology will come up in the court case...
Post by: David-2 on April 03, 2018, 07:20:09 AM
My question would be why are they having such persistent issues with minor things, doors, clipping, elevators?
Some whale should spend the $60 and send CR this book (https://www.amazon.com/Real-Time-Collision-Detection-Interactive-Technology/dp/1558607323/). Then he could hand it off to one of his junior developers and get all these clipping issues fixed. While he paid attention to the important details, like approving the art design for the toilets in the Constellation so they'll give you full immersion in cinematic fidelity.
("When you press and hold ctrl-L to raise the seat there's a telescopic hydraulic cylinder that lifts it from the right side. No, wait, the left side. No. No. The right side. And there's a quiet whoosh. Lift the sound from those Star Trek doors. TOS, of course, idiot, not Discovery! Hang on. Wait. No. On the left side on port loos and the right side on starboard loos!")
Post by: dsmart on April 04, 2018, 09:36:40 AM
https://robertsspaceindustries.com/spectrum/community/SC/forum/4/thread/known-issues-sc-alpha-3-1-0-live-738964
My rant:
https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/981565344178417665.html
Post by: Bubba on April 04, 2018, 01:55:12 PM
Behold! Like the mythical platform of Windows, which took six and a half years to go from 1.0 to 3.1, SC has trundled through to 3.1. 3.11, the first "good" version, is just around the corner!
The testing has come to an end... the MVP is nigh!
Or that nobody's playing it works to their advantage. Gotta have an exit strategy.
Post by: Motto on April 04, 2018, 02:23:17 PM
Gotta have an exit strategy.
Is this where "DOORS" comes in?
Post by: Spunky Munkee on April 04, 2018, 11:20:21 PM
The money grab fits Robbers to a T. They have to be close to running on fumes with the donations way down and with the current state of things so abysmal the trend is unlikely to turn around.
Post by: Padrepapp on April 05, 2018, 01:14:19 AM
My rant:
https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/981565344178417665.html
"BREAKING: I hate to say "I told you so"
Won't buy this bullshit, I bet you love it you liar! :police:
Post by: N0mad on April 05, 2018, 02:32:18 AM
I thought much the same as bubba as soon as I read that they removed the REC from the game. They reduced the odds that people will turn out to play and at the same time reduced the server loads and minimized the odds of 2 players appearing in the same area. Instant bug report reductions. It'as amazing that there were no fits from backers. If I were still in this mess I'd be fuming.
The money grab fits Robbers to a T. They have to be close to running on fumes with the donations way down and with the current state of things so abysmal the trend is unlikely to turn around.
I think you have to consider that everything CIG does at this point is designed to please a single group: the Whales. This group don't need REC - they've bought most of the ships, not having REC gives them an excuse to buy more. This group will also be relied on to buy more UEC to expedite the respawn of their favourite ship. CIG don't care about pissing off ordinary backers at this point, - for every backer complaining about it I'm sure several more will be buying more ships or credit to keep playing. The fact that their community will decline to just a few hardcore fans won't bother Roberts as long as they keep sending him cash.
Post by: dsmart on April 05, 2018, 09:02:05 AM
As far as REC goes, CR was quite clear in 2015 that giving them out helped get certain aspects of the game tested. Now they've stopped, and the numbers of "testers" have fallen.
Behold! Like the mythical platform of Windows, which took six and a half years to go from 1.0 to 3.1, SC has trundled through to 3.1. 3.11, the first "good" version, is just around the corner!
The testing has come to an end... the MVP is nigh!
Or that nobody's playing it works to their advantage. Gotta have an exit strategy.
That's precisely it. Nobody is playing the other modules; and they only do so in order to get REC. CIG have basically figured that out. So, even though the game isn't even anywhere near finished, they removed REC ships from the PU because then it means people have to buy ships.
Mark my words: The next thing they are going to do, is deprecated aUEC and enable actual UEC which is sold for real cash. It's all a desperate cash grab now.
Post by: dsmart on April 05, 2018, 09:02:57 AM
"BREAKING: I hate to say "I told you so"
Won't buy this bullshit, I bet you love it you liar! :police:
:emot-lol:
Post by: N0mad on April 05, 2018, 12:54:06 PM
Post by: N0mad on April 05, 2018, 01:03:02 PM
Post by: dsmart on April 07, 2018, 05:05:27 AM
Design Notes: Mining, Feb 2015 (https://robertsspaceindustries.com/comm-link/engineering/14522-Design-Notes-Mining)
(https://i.imgur.com/M6SJ2wp.png)
:emot-lol:
Post by: N0mad on April 07, 2018, 09:00:25 AM
No way any of the major gameplay features (mining / salvage etc) make it into the game before the end of the year.... or before the complete collapse of the project.
Post by: dsmart on April 07, 2018, 09:02:41 AM
Post by: jwh1701 on April 07, 2018, 10:22:44 AM
https://robertsspaceindustries.com/roadmap/board/1-Star-Citizen
Design Notes: Mining, Feb 2015 (https://robertsspaceindustries.com/comm-link/engineering/14522-Design-Notes-Mining)
What's sad is that people think the voting actually caused delays, looks like the voting is working properly the for the CR scam. Even dumber is why no one is even questioning the vote for features with so much core tech not even on the radar.
https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/comments/8afk46/star_citizen_roadmap_update_20180407/
Post by: Penny579 on April 08, 2018, 11:31:57 PM
I think it's safe to say we're all the way into 2019 now. They're going to keep shifting things. I mean, look at 3.4. Who thinks they're going to do ALL of that?
Closer to the point 3.2
Bind culling
FPS AI
Manned Turrets
Mining
Party System
Item 2.0
Wear and Tear
if they can smash this out in 3 months what have they been doing for 6 years? Half of these cans have been kicked down the road for so long it will be a miracle if they finish them all now.
We have now developed or new cutting edge FPS AI and it is in game, 3.2 achieved!! However, AI FPS Missions are only scheduled for 4.0 as we need to resolve how they react to different procedurally generated meals in the cafeteria, so there is no gameplay you cant test yet, but still a very important milestone you should be proud of us, it has never been done before after all.
Post by: GaryII on April 09, 2018, 01:08:03 AM
if they can smash this out in 3 months what have they been doing for 6 years? Half of these cans have been kicked down the road for so long it will be a miracle if they finish them all now.
I think now they have new strategy, after failing to meet any deadlines for years now their main focus is to meet made up deadlines.
So they can push new narrative to whales -> see we can follow deadlines -> give us more money!
About actual content - they will just move it to next patch 3.3...
Post by: dsmart on April 09, 2018, 05:24:25 AM
I think now they have new strategy, after failing to meet any deadlines for years now their main focus is to meet made up deadlines.
So they can push new narrative to whales -> see we can follow deadlines -> give us more money!
About actual content - they will just move it to next patch 3.3...
Right. Which is why even though Chris said he wasn't giving out dates, a schedule appeared in 2016 - as we later found out, it was pure bullshit. Replaced in Jan 2018 by a new Trello-like version of the same bullshit. Which is why 3.1 was reduced by over 50% by the time they released it a sub-par version on 03/31.
As I said in one of my threads, all things being equal, they need another 8 yrs to get to a final release. EIGHT FUCKING YEARS MORE
Post by: Narrenbart on April 09, 2018, 05:50:30 AM
Closer to the point 3.2
Bind culling
FPS AI
Manned Turrets
Mining
Party System
Item 2.0
Wear and Tear
if they can smash this out in 3 months what have they been doing for 6 years? Half of these cans have been kicked down the road for so long it will be a miracle if they finish them all now.
We have now developed or new cutting edge FPS AI and it is in game, 3.2 achieved!! However, AI FPS Missions are only scheduled for 4.0 as we need to resolve how they react to different procedurally generated meals in the cafeteria, so there is no gameplay you cant test yet, but still a very important milestone you should be proud of us, it has never been done before after all.
It's not meant to be in 3.2, they will slowly push a good portion of it into the future cause "game development".
What counts is the first impression to cash in for it - The same thing they always do - now in new clothes.
Post by: Narrenbart on April 09, 2018, 05:53:18 AM
Right. Which is why even though Chris said he wasn't giving out dates, a schedule appeared in 2016 - as we later found out, it was pure bullshit. Replaced in Jan 2018 by a new Trello-like version of the same bullshit. Which is why 3.1 was reduced by over 50% by the time they released it a sub-par version on 03/31.I guess they will reach a point where the project is too unstable way before.
As I said in one of my threads, all things being equal, they need another 8 yrs to get to a final release. EIGHT FUCKING YEARS MORE
Unless they don't restart everything with a decent roadmap and stable builds this will lead to nowhere but a better looking goat simulator.
Post by: GaryII on April 09, 2018, 06:20:52 AM
I guess they will reach a point where the project is too unstable way before.
I think they have few tough "tests" ahead for next ~2 years:
1) Lawsuit with Crytek -> how much they will lose here and what drama it will create...
2) For how long whales will believe in their new year 2018 marketing strategy - release everything on time, but with content missing and/or broken - so far it works...
3) if they decide to allow backers to buy all or most ships with in-game money (its was promised in some 3.x patch...?!) - how it will affect ship sales...I think its marketing suicide so they will delay this as long its possible..
4) Technical part - with each patch SC development gets more and more complex I guess they are running in engine limitations and in "high fidelity" wall every day working long overhours i guess at this point for at least year for some guys = team morale probably is all time low...
Lot of open positions they have now, so they may hit human resource wall - nobody wants to work at CIG...
Post by: Penny579 on April 11, 2018, 04:37:55 AM
It's not meant to be in 3.2, they will slowly push a good portion of it into the future cause "game development".
You know what that would be acceptable if they had a road map from start to finish, and not a plan to fuck knows where, made up 50% revamps of marine Armour and helmet polish.
Post by: GaryII on April 11, 2018, 05:59:39 AM
You know what that would be acceptable if they had a road map from start to finish, and not a plan to fuck knows where, made up 50% revamps of marine Armour and helmet polish.
As they say - you don't understand game development and its Pre-Alfa ;)
Anyway those roadmaps are made for naive idiots ;)
Post by: Gendo on April 11, 2018, 06:06:28 AM
I guess they will reach a point where the project is too unstable way before.
Unless they don't restart everything with a decent roadmap and stable builds this will lead to nowhere but a better looking goat simulator.
Just think of the goat simulator that could be built with $180 million, eight years, and a competent design/production team. Lord...if CIG and croberts tried to build a goat sim after eight years you’d end up with a mess a polygons with a rag doll tounge; you’d have to control each leg individually because they could never get the IGCS (In Goat Control System) working properly; it would crash if you tried to lick something because they made every grain of feed a separate entity...but boy...just think of the man hours and money put into the fidelity of that tounge...one can dream... :grin:
Also...they wouldn’t even have to design jpegs to sell...they could just sell random pictures of goats that might eventually be designed and make it into the game...but of course it would all be massively delayed because they’d still be trying to perfect procedural goat generation.
Post by: N0mad on April 11, 2018, 06:45:32 AM
Post by: David-2 on April 11, 2018, 02:56:58 PM
Are you kidding? Star Citizen IS Goat Simulator in space - they just haven't added any goats yet.
And yet the task "Polish: Collision detection" hasn't appeared on any roadmap. Has it ever been discussed in an ATV, along with Item 2.0 or all the other Hail Mary technologies?
Those clips are hilarious. I expect to see that sort of thing as part of the portfolio of someone who quit DigiPen after a semester or two because it was too tough.
Post by: Penny579 on April 12, 2018, 06:41:34 AM
Are you kidding? Star Citizen IS Goat Simulator in space - they just haven't added any goats yet.
HAHAHAH oh god that rag doll i cant breath .... man space is hard
That clip is worth more than a starter package
Post by: dsmart on April 12, 2018, 08:04:05 AM
Are you kidding? Star Citizen IS Goat Simulator in space - they just haven't added any goats yet.
:emot-lol: Those clips are incredible.
Post by: Backer42 on April 12, 2018, 02:53:06 PM
As I said in one of my threads, all things being equal, they need another 8 yrs to get to a final release. EIGHT FUCKING YEARS MOREWhen you need 15+ years for developing a video game, your underlying platform is gone, when you're done.
In eight years, their engine will be legacy cruft and DirectX11 is long gone - as is the hardware supporting it, and Windows might be too.
It's like starting a large Amiga 500 game project as a single person in 1990 working 30 years on it and then release it in 2020: The result will only run on emulators if at all.
Post by: dsmart on April 12, 2018, 03:03:26 PM
Post by: Backer42 on April 12, 2018, 03:23:12 PM
Yeah well look on the bright side. Byt then there will be computers powerful enough to run it.I wouldn't be so sure, Star Citizen is a CPU- and network-limited game and Moore's Law didn't work as Croberts imagined it.
Post by: dsmart on April 12, 2018, 05:46:44 PM
Post by: jwh1701 on April 13, 2018, 11:39:03 AM
So there's a new $45 starter ship concept - with only 6 months insurance. As these things go, some Spergs aren't too happy about it.
There is a reddit thread on this and even the people that like the game but are unhappy about it are shouted down in usual cult like sc fashion.
Post by: dsmart on April 13, 2018, 12:18:24 PM
There is a reddit thread on this and even the people that like the game but are unhappy about it are shouted down in usual cult like sc fashion.
Yeah, and the one thread that had about 150 posts when I saw it yesterday, has since been deleted by mods.
Post by: dsmart on April 16, 2018, 11:21:57 AM
hello guys,
maybe some noticed already, some maybe not.
the actual funding some misses some dollars,
regarding the exchange rate.
if you pay in euro, they count you €0.91 per $1.00.
the actual exchange rate is €0.80 per $1.00!
this means, that today every payment you do in €,
you pay ~14% to much.
added to the funding sum is just the net $-value,
even if you pay more.
VAT is not added.
with other currencies, it is the same, with a way to high
exchange rate, that is fixed.
The funding chart is rubbish anyway. So I don't think it matters if they convert correctly or not.
Post by: dsmart on April 16, 2018, 11:25:11 AM
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Da5_-c2V4AANZ8T.jpg)
That's a real email btw
Post by: Scruffpuff on April 16, 2018, 12:21:23 PM
:emot-lol:
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Da5_-c2V4AANZ8T.jpg)
That's a real email btw
ROFL
Post by: dsmart on April 17, 2018, 10:27:06 AM
Don't ask. I have no clue either.
Post by: dsmart on April 26, 2018, 02:25:12 PM
@ 30:19
Post by: dsmart on May 05, 2018, 10:15:50 AM
Post by: Backer42 on May 05, 2018, 11:05:33 AM
Quote
Aaand... why do you put out raw gameply? No voice-over to tell what is happening (ppl start thinking this mission is all it`s got), no explanation what this game is about...:grin: :laugh:
This try to promote Star Citizen is actually turning unknowing ppl away from it. Shame! shame, shame, ... yo`know shame!
Post by: jwh1701 on May 05, 2018, 07:44:09 PM
Star Citizen: 6 Gorgeous Minutes of "Picking up a Box" Gameplay
LOL Quotes
amd9012
14 hours ago
Stay tuned for next year's video, where they'll pick up TWO boxes!!!
Flux Mulder
4 hours ago
This is what happens when you spend $180 million on visuals, and not on gampelay.
jayce odell
16 hours ago
Wow! Did you see the way he moved that box!
The video churning machine for last:
BoredGamer
9 hours ago (edited)
I love Star Citizen but why did you select the most mundane thing to do in the game? Why not do a Miles Eckhart Mission or a combat mission XD
Post by: dsmart on May 06, 2018, 03:41:20 AM
Post by: krylite on May 09, 2018, 04:03:59 AM
So now they have this video...demonstration/ad?/trailer? for CIG's benefit. ("Miles" still drunk and wasted under the table in that bar?) I guess since CR has burned his bridges to have a traditional publisher bail out the mess, he now has instead IGN support yt videos.
I could see all the texture showoff clunk in that "outpost base" (/w no security or defenses), the ripoff of ED's autominers and outposts. All still in one system. Carrying a box. Where SC has anti-gravity/gravity tech inside their ship but typical of their nonsensical mishmash, they don't have an anti-grav hand-tug-able lifter which even the original Star Trek showed. (2nd season, "Obsession" episode, 1967) . This video shows, imo, what could have been done on $10 million in one year four years ago or more for a single handcrafted planet cryengine demo level..
Post by: Backer42 on May 09, 2018, 04:57:08 AM
Interesting video and the lol-comments. IGN has seemed to be vigged by CIG-arrets for the past few years. They did a nasty "meh" video "review" of Elite: Dangerous a few months ago with the same ol "no depth" superficial panning and rated it overall 40% lower than it should have been.That hits the nail on the head. It's a shallow MVP with barebones mechanics nowhere near of what has been promised during the Kickstarter era, which hides its thin content behind a worse grind than what you find in freemium games, deliberately designed to waste your time. They only thing which has been implemented to a meaningful depth is the combat and consequentially all content extensions focus on that. Everything else looks almost like a placeholder.
This MMO has clearly been put in maintenance mode, because it didn't pan out with the number of active players Frontier imagined for it. All future paid expansions have been canceled - because nobody would buy expansions for an almost dead MMO. And it doesn't help that the few remaining players are all separated by platform.
So all you get in the future is trickle updates paid by micro-transactions until the
Quote
immense galaxy of visitable unique star systemsis finally shut down, when these don't cover the operating cost anymore.
It's also quite telling that people get triggered by reviews of their favorite space MMO or when someone mentions they stopped playing it. There is a huge overlap between the Star Citizen and Elite Dangerous crowds and the only difference is that David Braben managed to fuck up less than Chris Roberts and at least get his MVP out.
Post by: krylite on May 09, 2018, 05:35:06 AM
That hits the nail on the head. It's a shallow MVP with barebones mechanics nowhere near of what has been promised during the Kickstarter era, which hides its thin content behind a worse grind than what you find in freemium games, deliberately designed to waste your time. They only thing which has been implemented to a meaningful depth is the combat and consequentially all content extensions focus on that. Everything else looks almost like a placeholder.omigosh, I can't agree with most of what you've said about ED. The game imo, has fulfilled much of the base promises of the KS. ED is literally FE2&FFE expanded tenfold. Yes, the combat is great, but so is the ship design, the sound design and the rotating stations are well done. The background "starbox" is literally composed of the galaxy model with an astronomer hired to help with the stellar forge mechanics. Landing on terrain is implemented. Collisions and even different gravities are working where debris and materials from collisions and explosion act and roll down hills believably at the different possible gravities among the myriad planetoids of systems. All this among other working systems including the procedural achievements. Yes, there are placeholders, but as I and others have mentioned on the ED forum plenty of times, the game continues to be gradually worked on and we are still on year four out of a proposed timeplan of ten years or more. There is so much new and updated since the initial release so what FDev have done is not unsubstantial. Not panning out with players? ED has the highest steamspy counting of different logins per week of the entire space game genre. It's hard to congregate multiple players because the simulation is so realistically vast, where players could be among thousands of possible system locations and that's just counting the populated bubble. Beyond isn't maintenance mode. Development may seem slow at times, but ED is far from maintenance mode which is more like just leaving the lights on for the login servers. Braben hasn't f'cked it up, he and Frontier have made a successful game, made Frontier the most successful it's been in its history. JWE is sensibly the priority now, where every game company has to deal with priorities to meet release dates among different products in their line. And they've recently put out listings to hire some programmers to work specifically on ED particularly on improving the networking.
This MMO has clearly been put in maintenance mode, because it didn't pan out with the number of active players Frontier imagined for it. All future paid expansions have been canceled - because nobody would buy expansions for an almost dead MMO. And it doesn't help that the few remaining players are all separated by platform.
So all you get in the future is trickle updates paid by micro-transactions until theis finally shut down, when these don't cover the operating cost anymore.
It's also quite telling that people get triggered by reviews of their favorite space MMO or when someone mentions they stopped playing it. There is a huge overlap between the Star Citizen and Elite Dangerous crowds and the only difference is that David Braben managed to fuck up less than Chris Roberts and at least get his MVP out.
https://www.frontier.co.uk/node/858 (principal position, hopefully expanding ED's network infrastructure)
https://www.frontier.co.uk/careers/disciplines/art/concept-artist-vehicle-and-weapon-specialist (means more assets planned)
https://www.frontier.co.uk/node/809 (mentions Elite)
https://www.frontier.co.uk/node/857 (says to "work across existing titles")
https://www.frontier.co.uk/node/856 (quoted : "includes both new additions to Frontier’s popular lines of games such as Elite Dangerous and.." )
https://www.frontier.co.uk/careers/disciplines/programming/core-technology-programmer (quoted: "you could be working on future developments of our highly successful Elite Dangerous game" )
https://www.frontier.co.uk/careers/disciplines/programming/graduate-programmers (quoted: "opportunity to quickly make an important contribution to the development and improvement of some of the industry’s biggest and most loved games, for example Elite Dangerous,")
https://www.frontier.co.uk/careers/programmer-application-guidance (quote: "we also have a team concentrating on technology shared between our games.")
I get it some ED players were/are SC backers, but the Star Citizen thread on the ED forum has majorly demonstrated most ED forum members have woken up to the SC ponzi in the past two years and some posts praising SC out of the blue are far in the minority and possibly shilling, since the ED moderation is demonstrably far more open to freedom of discussion even to the point of disgruntled players who have already enjoyed hundreds of hours of ED than the SC forums themselves. I'd guess perhaps you've caught on to the ED forum malaise that the game is "dying" fueled perhaps in part by burnout of playing ED. I would continue to wait and see. Once JWE is released, there will be almost certainly a boost in priority for Beyond and ED again. I'm looking forward to see the improvements to come in the years ahead for ED.
Post by: Backer42 on May 09, 2018, 06:29:13 AM
omigosh, I can't agree with most of what you've said about ED.Just a note: People with an engaging game to play spend time playing it, not writing books defending it on forums and comments.
Honestly I can't see any difference between the core audience of SC and ED. The toxicity is there too and the question of "which space sim" boils down to simple tribalism.
Quote
https://www.frontier.co.uk/careers/disciplines/art/concept-artist-vehicle-and-weapon-specialist (means more assets planned)It confirms my argument: The only thing Frontier actually cares about is the ship combat, because it's one of the few non-placeholder gameplay loops in Elite Dangerous. Almost everything else is just a grind for gear to get a higher rank in combat. (Even the planet landings were just added to waste even more of your time reaching a POI.)
That becomes pretty obvious when you play other not-so-shallow space games with much more content variety, many fleshed out non-combat-focused mechanics and a sensible pace of progression.
The thing with the tribalist SC/ED snowflakes is however that they usually don't even touch other games and get upset, when somebody dares to stop playing their favorite game and move to a different one. Most of them don't have a clue about video games and just want to live in their fantasy space world.
Post by: dsmart on May 09, 2018, 06:33:20 AM
That hits the nail on the head. It's a shallow MVP with barebones mechanics nowhere near of what has been promised during the Kickstarter era, which hides its thin content behind a worse grind than what you find in freemium games, deliberately designed to waste your time. They only thing which has been implemented to a meaningful depth is the combat and consequentially all content extensions focus on that. Everything else looks almost like a placeholder.
This MMO has clearly been put in maintenance mode, because it didn't pan out with the number of active players Frontier imagined for it. All future paid expansions have been canceled - because nobody would buy expansions for an almost dead MMO. And it doesn't help that the few remaining players are all separated by platform.
So all you get in the future is trickle updates paid by micro-transactions until theis finally shut down, when these don't cover the operating cost anymore.
It's also quite telling that people get triggered by reviews of their favorite space MMO or when someone mentions they stopped playing it. There is a huge overlap between the Star Citizen and Elite Dangerous crowds and the only difference is that David Braben managed to fuck up less than Chris Roberts and at least get his MVP out.
You are - quite literally - insane. :emot-ughh:
They pitched the game in 2012. Got the money. Built it. Then added stuff to it. Backers got the game they paid for - and aren't forced/asked to buy anything else to PLAY it.
And since both SC and ED were funded, FrontierDev have 2 full games, with 1 more out this Summer. CIG hasn't shipped a SINGLE game.
If you spent time looking at FrontierDev's financials, you will see just how wrong you are.
Yes - gaming, like all art forms, is purely subjective; but to make claims about a game that backers paid for and received, then call it dead because *gasp* FDev decided they have finished what they envisioned for it, is absolutely ludicrous. There is NOTHING in gaming that says a company has to keep adding to or improving a game just because it still exists.
Post by: Backer42 on May 09, 2018, 06:35:24 AM
You are - quite literally - insane. :emot-ughh:Thanks. :grin:
Post by: dsmart on May 09, 2018, 06:37:23 AM
Thanks. :grin:
Read the rest of it, for context because you responded when I accidentally posted it before completing it.
Post by: dsmart on May 09, 2018, 06:43:00 AM
Just a note: People with an engaging game to play spend time playing it, not writing books defending it on forums and comments.
That's categorically false; because it would imply that gamers have no other things to do with their free time but to defend a game on forums.
Quote
Honestly I can't see any difference between the core audience of SC and ED. The toxicity is there too and the question of "which space sim" boils down to simple tribalism.
That's pure bs. Where do you see ED fans descending on other people across the Internet, just because they were saying bad stuff about the game? The ED community is no more passionate than ANY other gaming community (e.g. PUBG, Fortnite, Destiny etc).
Quote
It confirms my argument:
That you're insane. Yes, it does.
Quote
The only thing Frontier actually cares about is the ship combat, because it's one of the few non-placeholder gameplay loops in Elite Dangerous. Almost everything else is just a grind for gear to get a higher rank in combat. (Even the planet landings were just added to waste even more of your time reaching a POI.)
That's nonsensical tripe. If you knew anything about the legacy Elite, then you would know that they kept the core theme and mechanics of that game: exploration, trading, combat. They didn't bloat it with bs.
Quote
That becomes pretty obvious when you play other not-so-shallow space games with much more content variety, many fleshed out non-combat-focused mechanics and a sensible pace of progression.
Such as?
Quote
The thing with the tribalist SC/ED snowflakes is however that they usually don't even touch other games and get upset, when somebody dares to stop playing their favorite game and move to a different one. Most of them don't have a clue about video games and just want to live in their fantasy space world.
You're talking about Shitizens now.
Post by: krylite on May 09, 2018, 06:51:58 AM
Just a note: People with an engaging game to play spend time playing it, not writing books defending it on forums and comments.Encouragingly I found more listings (edited above) including the principal networking position for ED which if improved could facilitate future spacelegs. As for writing books, you got me motivated to be more verbose here, but I'm just responding in difference to your points. I'm still playing ED regularly.
Honestly I can't see any difference between the core audience of SC and ED. The toxicity is there too and the question of "which space sim" boils down to simple tribalism.
It confirms my argument: The only thing Frontier actually cares about is the ship combat, because it's one of the few non-placeholder gameplay loops in Elite Dangerous. Almost everything else is just a grind for gear to get a higher rank in combat. (Even the planet landings were just added to waste even more of your time reaching a POI.)
Quote
That becomes pretty obvious when you play other not-so-shallow space games with much more content variety, many fleshed out non-combat-focused mechanics and a sensible pace of progression.I'd say scale vs. fidelity tradeoff and dev limitations aligned with current tech which has been a main theme of this forum's discussion. With the looks of it. Frontier is planning to improve ED with a major hiring milestone. So it's hopeful ED will eventually could even fulfill the rest of the KS stretch goals. SC has been going at it for 7 years. ED, I'd bet can pragmatically do it better in the same and future time range.
Quote
The thing with the tribalist SC/ED snowflakes is however that they usually don't even touch other games and get upset, when somebody dares to stop playing their favorite game and move to a different one. Most of them don't have a clue about video games and just want to live in their fantasy space world.
If you're equating me to a hypothetical 'snowflake', I barely fit your description. Admittedly I never got a console, but I have a played a few others such as Skyrim, gta, farcry, older star trek, etc.. my main was FSX before ED, and ED has done a premiere job of simulation for a fantasy space world which while still a niche achievement, is a gaming milestone,imo, and respecting the classic sci-fi genre. Sure taking a break from ED helps, and it's still my number one game in the past few years. So, anyways, I assume we just differ in the assessment of ED's quality and future and I've made my differing points and have read yours. Ok, have a nice day.
Post by: jwh1701 on May 16, 2018, 02:12:58 PM
SC at 10 min - jk
Post by: dsmart on May 17, 2018, 08:33:58 AM
Like a lot of the videos on gaming from unreal.
SC at 10 min - jk
LOL!! Yeah, I see what you did there :emot-lol:
Post by: jwh1701 on May 17, 2018, 01:50:43 PM
LOL!! Yeah, I see what you did there :emot-lol:
That was a very cool video on how much just a few ms can cost you, I suspect you in your games that you dealt with similar problems. I wonder if CIG has the people to understand and fine tune like they were talking about in the video?
Post by: helimoth on May 17, 2018, 01:55:47 PM
That was a very cool video on how much just a few ms can cost you, I suspect you in your games that you dealt with similar problems. I wonder if CIG has the people to understand and fine tune like they were talking about in the video?
let's be fair; that game in the video didn't have the premium features that only a $185m+ star citizen can bring you like face over IP, pets and changeable uniforms which I think we all agree is exactly we expect from a spaceship sim.
Post by: jwh1701 on May 17, 2018, 02:28:19 PM
let's be fair; that game in the video didn't have the premium features that only a $185m+ star citizen can bring you like face over IP, pets and changeable uniforms which I think we all agree is exactly we expect from a spaceship sim.
LOL so true, but you forgot fidelity over gameplay, guy posted in reddit it was the greatest game ever because riding towards the sunset was so pretty.
Post by: dsmart on May 19, 2018, 05:20:07 AM
(https://i.imgur.com/Ak0KfSI.jpg)
Post by: krylite on May 19, 2018, 12:20:21 PM
Post by: Scruffpuff on May 19, 2018, 03:27:41 PM
The SC "roadmap" is too similar by "3.x" to Elite: Dangerous' "Beyond" season numbering where there are supposedly going to be further "3.1","3.2" etc. updates by 2018 end . I wonder if it was just coincidence , or actually intentional on CIG's part to try to fool ED players who have not been following the SC debacle closely. So they hear about "3.2" is coming and erroneously think 'oh, SC has some "season 3" or third year something, out already' like ED and Beyond. Occasionally there are still shillizen(probably) threads that pop up in the ED forum out of nowhere trying to subtly bring some attention back to SC.
CIG has been doing this from the beginning. Their version numbers mirror Elite's, and CIG even goes so far as to make sure their "releases" (which never work and have none of the promised features) always come out a few days ahead of Elite's. Even their Friday newsletters mirror Elite's and go out within hours of theirs.
Of course a 3.0 and beyond moniker would imply Star Citizen is on its second expansion, or third major revision, or such. When cornered with this info, Chris Roberts basically said "that's the old way of thinking" making it sound like he was ahead of the curve. Except it's not "the old way of thinking" just because his ignorant ass says so - the industry is rock-solid on the overall concept of what build versions are, if they can't necessarily agree on what a point release is - and a pre-alpha certainly can't be in "3.0". CIG calls it 3.0 because that's what Elite is actually in.
They do it so they can make it look like Star Citizen and Elite are both peer space games, competing in a friendly way with each other in the same product space - a wild mischaracterisation of the state of the project. It's been like this since the beginning - CIG's lies aren't overt, they just put little subtle things out there and let the players soak in the lie. It's one of the reasons Chris Roberts put out that letter a couple of years ago "acknowledging" Elite as a competing space game and recommending players enjoy them both. A sly wink to his audience "yes Elite and Star Citizen are both similar games with similar amounts of playability and they're both completely legitimate and not at all a catastrophic failure."
To my mind, this "how do you do, fellow kids" bullshit is worse than just straight-out lying.
Post by: Meowz on May 20, 2018, 12:11:43 AM
Post by: N0mad on May 20, 2018, 02:27:56 AM
So how would you go about Laundering a few million? Please note - I know nothing about how money laundering works except from what I learnt watching Breaking Bad and I'm not accusing CIG of any wrongdoing, this is just a thought exercise.
I had a few thoughts: Consider the situation where you're a Russian "businessman" who wants to throw some money around in the USA but can't disclose your source of income to any US authorities. You could get money into CIG through your Russian "employees" buying large value items, probably via multiple accounts. Although this would be your "dirty" money in Russian roubles, this would be perfectly legal.
The hard part would be getting money out from CIG. You could take control of the account and either refund it or sell it on the grey market, but this would lead to an inexplicable source of income if you do it repeatedly. Far safer would be to have a source inside CIG allowing you to get your cash out safely. This is where I'm less certain about how this would work, but one mechanism would be this: you (the now legitimate US based Russian businessman) own a small software studio which doesn't seem to do very much, but you win a contract from CIG to produce some software for them and get paid a huge sum for doing so (which is your dirty money in the first place). At the end of the contract, your one real employee has done a little bit of work, and you get to keep the rest of the cash.
Please let me know where I'm going wrong with this.
Post by: dsmart on May 20, 2018, 06:14:19 AM
Every time I look at their funding chart I just think there is NO WAY it can be real or accurate. How can CIG with such bad press, low player stats, and overall no progress rake in 2mil a month on their low months? It has to be padded for sure, since refunds are out no way people are still using it for money laundering if they did unless the laundering is coming from inside CIG.
It's not accurate by any stretch of the imagination. It's all bs. And I have proof.
Post by: dsmart on May 20, 2018, 06:15:53 AM
With all the controversy about Russians owning game studios - I was wondering what sort of mechanism would allow you to launder cash through Star Citizen. Derek's Money Laundromat blog discussed using the grey market to get clean cash out, but I don't see that working on a huge scale, especially since there could still be a paper trail for the authorities.
So how would you go about Laundering a few million? Please note - I know nothing about how money laundering works except from what I learnt watching Breaking Bad and I'm not accusing CIG of any wrongdoing, this is just a thought exercise.
Money laundering doesn't have a value cap. Whether it's a few hundred from stolen credit cards, drug money or whatever, it's still money laundering if it's ill-gotten gains. The whole idea is to turn dirty money into clean money; so the amount is irrelevant.
Post by: N0mad on May 20, 2018, 09:14:29 AM
Money laundering doesn't have a value cap. Whether it's a few hundred from stolen credit cards, drug money or whatever, it's still money laundering if it's ill-gotten gains. The whole idea is to turn dirty money into clean money; so the amount is irrelevant.
Sure, but it's the possible mechanism I was wondering about. I'm not saying CIG have done anything dodgy, but didn't they do a lot of outsourcing at one point with relatively little too show for it?
Post by: StanTheMan on May 20, 2018, 03:51:08 PM
Sure, but it's the possible mechanism I was wondering about. I'm not saying CIG have done anything dodgy, but didn't they do a lot of outsourcing at one point with relatively little too show for it?
Sure but idiots in companies wasting money on ill thought out or poorly managed projects is nothing new.
Chris and his pals taking cash out of the company is also one thing, other people using Star Citizen as a way to launder money is obviously another.
There was a lot of Grey Market activity for a number of years and there were quite a few people advertising large inventories of ships whicvh you had to wonder where they were getting them from and why...
Post by: dsmart on May 21, 2018, 07:53:54 AM
Sure, but it's the possible mechanism I was wondering about. I'm not saying CIG have done anything dodgy, but didn't they do a lot of outsourcing at one point with relatively little too show for it?
I don't have any reason to believe that CIG has been involved any such activities. I don't see how outsourcing could be used for money laundering when they would still have to account for it and use that info in their tax filings.
Third party backers are the ones who would use their lax CIG policies to do such things. It also explains one of the reasons why CIG asked for ID in some refund cases, which companies like Blizzard also tend to do depending on circumstances.
Post by: dsmart on May 21, 2018, 07:55:33 AM
Sure but idiots in companies wasting money on ill thought out or poorly managed projects is nothing new.
Chris and his pals taking cash out of the company is also one thing, other people using Star Citizen as a way to launder money is obviously another.
There was a lot of Grey Market activity for a number of years and there were quite a few people advertising large inventories of ships whicvh you had to wonder where they were getting them from and why...
Absolutely correct on all counts. Even taking cash out of the company isn't illegal unless someone (backers, investors, banks) sue them for fraud under "unjust enrichment" causes and such.
Post by: StanTheMan on May 21, 2018, 11:23:24 AM
Absolutely correct on all counts. Even taking cash out of the company isn't illegal unless someone (backers, investors, banks) sue them for fraud under "unjust enrichment" causes and such.
Yes and Backers have been so unconcerned that instead of demanding accounts or project plans they just kept spending more $$ and defended CRoberts.
It has been obvious, for a long time, that he is not an especially competent or honest person.
If he was, he would have made sure that he provided correct timely information, because it is the right thing to do.
Post by: N0mad on May 21, 2018, 12:08:16 PM
I don't have any reason to believe that CIG has been involved any such activities. I don't see how outsourcing could be used for money laundering when they would still have to account for it and use that info in their tax filings.
As far as I was aware the way to launder money is to do it via a legitimate business - which gives you a traceable source of legal money whilst separating you from and hiding the input of dirty cash.
In Breaking Bad, Walt had the car wash. They would fill the tills with dirty money and then make up receipts to account for the extra cash. Making the business more profitable than it really was, but doing so subtly enough so nobody notices.
Outsourcing could just be a method to extract the money in a legal way which is completely detached from the method of injecting the dirty money in the first place (via big spending whales). I'm not saying that this had happened but there are certainly a few dodgy characters who were associated with the Gizmondo fiasco in CIG.
Post by: Bubba on May 21, 2018, 01:51:06 PM
First, the term covers a wide range of maneuvers.
Second, the clear interest here isn't CIG laundering cash (uhh... What cash?), but third parties. And it works rather simply: CIG tolerates a secondary market for their jpegs. The value of those jpegs is not fixed. Players also can and do trade those jpegs. I won't spell it out, but I will say that there are good reasons game companies have been trying to avoid their games having secondary markets.
Post by: dsmart on May 21, 2018, 04:29:25 PM
I won't spell it out, but I will say that there are good reasons game companies have been trying to avoid their games having secondary markets.
Yes indeed.
Post by: dsmart on May 25, 2018, 04:11:43 PM
The tribal leaders are in fits (https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/comments/8m4kmo/roadmap_update_network_bind_cullling_from_511_to/?st=JHMGTLMW&sh=445510c2).
Post by: jwh1701 on May 25, 2018, 05:28:01 PM
Latest roadmap is out.
The tribal leaders are in fits (https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/comments/8m4kmo/roadmap_update_network_bind_cullling_from_511_to/?st=JHMGTLMW&sh=445510c2).
LOL they sure do live is some dream land to keep believing SC will have some eureka moment. I posted in the thread to try and help them the best I can.
Post by: StanTheMan on May 26, 2018, 04:39:18 AM
(https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcT9BUGDjixZCLC4alhbMmt4_PEmDrNuM1RxCtAt9edTSiJWHoaG)
Post by: dsmart on May 26, 2018, 06:05:25 AM
Anyone want to buy a Tonk ?
(https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcT9BUGDjixZCLC4alhbMmt4_PEmDrNuM1RxCtAt9edTSiJWHoaG)
No LTI. No Sale. :emot-colbert:
Post by: StanTheMan on May 26, 2018, 11:37:25 AM
Looking at that Lando stream with his empty cabinets behind him and that jolly disposition all gone .. I dont think he had LTI..
Post by: dsmart on May 27, 2018, 04:00:20 PM
MAKE MY MMO: STAR CITIZEN’S LEGATUS PACK OFFERS 117 SHIPS FOR $27,000 (http://massivelyop.com/2018/05/26/make-my-mmo-2018-may-26/)
Post by: jwh1701 on May 27, 2018, 05:13:41 PM
Totally not money laundering
MAKE MY MMO: STAR CITIZEN’S LEGATUS PACK OFFERS 117 SHIPS FOR $27,000 (http://massivelyop.com/2018/05/26/make-my-mmo-2018-may-26/)
LOL so insane considering the state of the demo, they have no conscious.
I though to myself that there has to be some negative press on spectrum but was wrong again.
https://robertsspaceindustries.com/spectrum/community/SC/forum/3/thread/the-legatus-pack
Post by: Meowz on May 27, 2018, 08:17:19 PM
Post by: LordSolarMacharius on May 27, 2018, 09:13:03 PM
"The Flower of Knighthood" kickstarter MMO looks like its taking a carbon copy straight out of CR's playbook. 1000 vs. 1000 battles, complex crafting and realistic battle mechanics, and the list goes on. All for just for 600k! Please... fool us once....
I'm going to avoid this one. It sounds way too good to be true, especially for only 600k. I regret backing Chronicles of Elyria another "it was too good to be true" project. They keep trying to sell digital goods/JPEGs like Star Citizen and no game in sight.
Post by: Spunky Munkee on May 28, 2018, 01:06:52 AM
Even if there were refunds to be had I could not put forth the effort to help them. This is not to say that many of them are too foolish to rewad the simple instructions on the side panel, they ask for help from the start, like children who want to be carried by their mommies.
Post by: Motto on May 28, 2018, 01:23:38 AM
Post by: dsmart on May 28, 2018, 04:48:51 AM
(https://i.imgur.com/JqK0R60.png)
Jesus.
Post by: N0mad on May 28, 2018, 04:51:21 AM
Post by: helimoth on May 28, 2018, 05:03:22 AM
Post by: dsmart on May 28, 2018, 05:49:35 AM
I so called that (like, months ago) :emot-snoop:
Well they're just copying Line Of Defense now :)
Post by: dsmart on May 28, 2018, 05:49:57 AM
Why let a small thing like scope creep get in the way of milking more money out ofgullible suckersloyal members
I know, right? This is all so amazing to me.
Post by: Motto on May 28, 2018, 05:50:41 AM
Post by: helimoth on May 28, 2018, 06:20:01 AM
https://www.reddit.com/r/Games/comments/8mos1t/star_citizen_offers_the_legatus_pack_for_27000/dzp91nz/
Quote
It will become funny once this game releases (if it ever will be - at least in some form): If CIG adjusts that earning those ships takes a reasonable amount of play time, then all the poeple having invested thousands of dollars will go amok, because they have lost their "investment". Also CIG will lose their main source of income, since nobody will buy their ships anymore. If CIG adjusts the time required to earn a ship ingame based on the price tag of the ship and a wage of 1$/h, then many ships will require several hundreds of hours to farm. Also in this case, SC will probably go down as the most P2W game in history, even worse than any EA game ever made (I'm looking at you SW:BF2).
Post by: Scruffpuff on May 28, 2018, 07:49:19 AM
They're just creating jpegs now. One after another, pushing everything that might be connected to space or war. Desperately grasping for every dollar they can suck in. And by doing so, distancing more and more backers. If you still don't see the desperation in this, you're an idiot.
It seems to be the only thing they're doing - from an outside perspective, it looks like every dollar they make goes into making another dollar. Logging into the "game" reveals the same janky broken model viewer it's been for nearly 3 years now. Last time they tried to add a single feature to their Jenga tower of failure they had to roll back the patch because it kept crashing the servers.
The code itself is impossible to get past the state it's in. There is no game or design for a game. There is no plan to design a game. There are assets for sale and literally nothing else.
Post by: Spunky Munkee on May 28, 2018, 08:44:01 AM
Here I wait with baited breath....
Any eta on when these mechanical wonders will ship? Will they be more powerful than the tanks they sold? Will they be able to leap and fly off into space and transform into ships? Will ships of the same clan be able to join hands and create a mega mecha!?!? I'm sure they will! The genius of Chris RObbers will surely prevail.
Did you know he is curing world hunger as we speak by rubbing two dollars together? A miracle man in our era! And as sweet and honest as the driven show.
Inquiring minds want to know! I'll just look on the Star Citizen official forums. I'm sure that THEY will know everything.
Post by: Backer42 on May 28, 2018, 10:09:30 AM
"The Flower of Knighthood" kickstarter MMO looks like its taking a carbon copy straight out of CR's playbook. 1000 vs. 1000 battles, complex crafting and realistic battle mechanics, and the list goes on. All for just for 600k! Please... fool us once....Lol wut, Kickstarter? Is this 2011?
Post by: Bubba on May 28, 2018, 01:17:17 PM
And seven days in, they haven't cleared 2 grand. Most KS projects make half their revenue in the first 24 hours, so I'm afraid that Oxford postdoc will have to keep applying for jobs.
Compare the approach of SC: slick, expensive demos, nostalgia of WC and a cult of the developer, a game genre that has a lot of traction, but is dwarfed by FPSs and casual games. And instead of telling you how you're going to have to grind every day to stay good, they come up with cool -sounding experiences you might one day have. Every png they sell comes with its own story.
So no, the Flower isn't necessarily a scam; but there are things you need for a successful kickstarter, and they have exactly zero of them.
Post by: jwh1701 on May 28, 2018, 02:06:12 PM
Mechs are apparently coming
Jesus.
LOL I will have to check my screen shots, I've been begging them on YouTube for these for a longtime.
Found one uploaded.
(https://s26.postimg.cc/ja4w3mrax/need_more_stuff_to_sale.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/bu5mhu3lh/)
Post by: helimoth on May 28, 2018, 02:30:50 PM
Post by: jwh1701 on May 28, 2018, 05:44:23 PM
I want the mechs to be able to combine together - mighty morphin power rangers style - in to the ultra mega robertszord
LOL, that gave me an idea for the next video they make, I will suggest that I would like a multi-pilot mech.
Post by: Meowz on May 28, 2018, 07:13:03 PM
LOL, that gave me an idea for the next video they make, I will suggest that I would like a multi-pilot mech.
Shouldn't be too tough at all when all they have to do in crank out a JPEG and a paragraph story line along side the price tag. Don't worry about coding the "Soon" takes care of that.
Post by: Star Chip on May 28, 2018, 07:32:52 PM
And I also want the robo combo Voltron Gundam Ranger thinge being real and seamlessly integrated to the realistic economy realistic society realistic military and realistic physics and not being out of place nor make the realistic economy realistic society realistic military and realistic physics looking stupid.
I also want the game looks glorious better than Crysis ever or ever could been also fully optimized in 60FPS in 4K ULTRA. Christ Robert please take my money and make this game, thanks.
Post by: Noztra on May 29, 2018, 02:22:37 AM
https://wccftech.com/star-citizen-legatus-pack-27000/
Post by: N0mad on May 29, 2018, 05:28:17 AM
Clearly I'm just floating ideas here - but with 450 (ish) employees at CIG: what do they all do? Because it doesn't seem like many of them are actually making the game.
Post by: dsmart on May 29, 2018, 07:38:17 AM
It struck me over the weekend, with all the media coverage of the 27K pack that very few guys in the comments were defending CIG. Normally you can expect the fanboys to be all over these things quelling dissent. Which made me wonder - a company with an aggressive marketing approach may very well employ a team for "social" marketing who may well have created multiple Alts to promote the game in forums.
Clearly I'm just floating ideas here - but with 450 (ish) employees at CIG: what do they all do? Because it doesn't seem like many of them are actually making the game.
Joe Blobber is an entire army all by himself :emot-lol:
Post by: N0mad on May 29, 2018, 09:52:58 AM
Which means that the project will collapse without them ever having released a battle mech JPEG.
Post by: Motto on May 29, 2018, 09:55:17 AM
Post by: N0mad on May 29, 2018, 10:01:21 AM
Post by: Motto on May 29, 2018, 10:05:36 AM
To CIG: it's 5 months since Holiday ATV Special, where is the Squadron 42 roadmap you promoted?
Post by: N0mad on May 29, 2018, 10:11:20 AM
LOL :laugh: on Reddit
To CIG: it's 5 months since Holiday ATV Special, where is the Squadron 42 roadmap you promoted?
The big LOLs just keep on coming at the moment :emot-laugh:
Post by: Greggy_D on May 29, 2018, 11:36:24 AM
Post by: dsmart on May 29, 2018, 01:10:39 PM
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DeY9gMjX4AA-QG7.jpg)
Yeah, $186M + almost 7 years (this coming Nov) in the making (4 yrs behind schedule), this is our version that better explains the fiasco that is the development.
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DeY9xqFW4AACjDM.jpg)
Post by: dsmart on May 29, 2018, 01:14:38 PM
Oh no - just heard on one of BoredGamers vids that the Mech suit thing was a fake :(
Of course we know it was fake. It originated from 4Chan.
Post by: Motto on May 29, 2018, 01:29:08 PM
Post by: N0mad on May 29, 2018, 01:32:06 PM
Post by: dsmart on May 29, 2018, 02:02:11 PM
You forgot the best one, the crobbeariceberg
Oh yeah!! And I actually have it here!
Post by: dsmart on May 29, 2018, 02:07:50 PM
As if it wasn't bad enough, word out of CIG is that they have removed the non-warbond versions of the Razor ship sale from the store.
They also locked CCUs to Razor ships.
Which means, the sale is now pure cash only - no store credit, no CCU xfer :emot-lol:
OLD
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DeZKzxHXcAEC4CN.jpg)
NEW
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DeZKzxEXkAIFBjH.jpg:large)
Post by: Motto on May 29, 2018, 02:23:10 PM
Post by: dsmart on May 29, 2018, 02:32:13 PM
In other Star Citizen news which can only be described by tilting your head back and laughing out loud, those clowns came up with this graphic (https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/comments/8myt9g/tip_of_the_development_iceberg/) to explain the bs with the project.
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DeY9gMjX4AA-QG7.jpg)
Yeah, $186M + almost 7 years (this coming Nov) in the making (4 yrs behind schedule), this is our version that better explains the fiasco that is the development.
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DeY9xqFW4AACjDM.jpg)
LOL!!
(https://i.imgur.com/mWHgg4F.jpg)
Post by: Greggy_D on May 29, 2018, 02:36:36 PM
Post by: Greggy_D on June 01, 2018, 12:00:39 PM
Post by: jwh1701 on June 01, 2018, 12:22:42 PM
Of course we know it was fake. It originated from 4Chan.
That sucks I did not see where it was from, just finished another long wish list for them.
Post by: Motto on June 01, 2018, 01:53:44 PM
Post by: dsmart on June 01, 2018, 04:22:40 PM
(https://i.imgur.com/3A96bwE.jpg)
Post by: dsmart on June 01, 2018, 04:31:18 PM
https://mailchi.mp/cloudimperiumgames/060118_the-wild-branch-141085
Post by: helimoth on June 02, 2018, 02:02:56 AM
Post by: dsmart on June 02, 2018, 05:10:27 AM
I find it hilarious they have long range scanning (in the precision they claim they are going to achieve it) for Q1 2019. I don't even get why they use a "roadmap" anyway. This looks like it would be useless in an actual software development environment. Looks very amateurish and waterfall-ish. However, if this grapeshot strategy of development is really what is going on in there then the devs have nothing but my sympathy for the 'management' they are having to endure.
:emot-allears:
Post by: Motto on June 02, 2018, 06:51:39 AM
How is it that Derek still hasn't tweeted the shit out of this? There is no game, but let's make a cape. In space. Because, you know, that never gets in the way of anything. And stuff.
OH MY FUCKING GOD. DEREK! HOW MUCH LONGER MUST WE SUFFER?
Post by: N0mad on June 02, 2018, 06:52:41 AM
I think Chris has seen the new Star Wars movie.
Post by: dsmart on June 02, 2018, 07:36:11 AM
Sandi has tweeted a picture of somebody working on a cape. A CAPE. In a space game. A FUCKING CAPE.
How is it that Derek still hasn't tweeted the shit out of this? There is no game, but let's make a cape. In space. Because, you know, that never gets in the way of anything. And stuff.
OH MY FUCKING GOD. DEREK! HOW MUCH LONGER MUST WE SUFFER?
https://twitter.com/dsmart/status/1002921548532142082
Quote
So Sandi tweeted a video of an artist making....wait for it...CAPES!
Someone saw the Solo movie.
I told you they had little interest in actually finishing the game promised. They will just keep ADDING STUFF TO SELL.
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DesXzadW0AA5x24.jpg)
Post by: jwh1701 on June 02, 2018, 08:05:59 AM
Post by: StanTheMan on June 02, 2018, 09:40:11 AM
Post by: Motto on June 02, 2018, 10:38:52 AM
https://twitter.com/dsmart/status/1002921548532142082
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DesXzadW0AA5x24.jpg)
OK, it's a start, but I know you can do better than that. Just go Full Metal Jacket on this absurd idea. Almost (allegedly) 190 million for a game still totallyMIA but somebody is designing capes. Go on, go wild and tear them all a new one :emot-supaburn:
Post by: Motto on June 02, 2018, 11:50:51 AM
Boy, they really don't like people telling the truth overthere now do they?
So, now I had to message the mods.
Hi,
for no apparent reason and without explanation, somebody decided to ban me from /r/StarCitizen.
Please undo that.
Best regards,
mjotto
Post by: Backer42 on June 02, 2018, 07:11:11 PM
It really is crazy to see capes being added but the truth is in reddit people just keep talking about how great the game is. Many base this solely on pretty screenshots and not a word about immersive gameplay. With no major progress being made they stay completely happy with taking screenshots. I watched a lives stream the previous night and it was about getting stuck to the outside windshield bug and then you fly around in that position.Many of these people don't play video games and don't know how to play video games. They share that with Chris Roberts, who has no clue about that topic either. Some of those people launder money through CIG and keep posting bullshit to feed their pump & dump scheme. Some are looking for bragging rights by trying to "own" as much JPEGs as possible. Some are looking for a "second life" community, because they have no friends in the real world.
Post by: DemonInvestor on June 02, 2018, 11:53:30 PM
Guess talk of realistic clothing and especially capes/coats will become a warning sign for me, at least if the Devs make these things out to be huge deals.
Post by: N0mad on June 03, 2018, 02:08:24 AM
Post by: dsmart on June 03, 2018, 03:57:22 AM
The trouble with all the capes / clothes / clothing stores / weapon stores / AI with daily routines / character customisation etc is that none of it adds any real gameplay. Sure it's good immersion to be able to walk into a store to buy a weapon, but the same function could be handled with a simple terminal. The clothing in particular adds NOTHING to the game, but represents (hundreds of) thousands of coder and artist man-hours to implement. The complex AI probably just adds to server lag. But I suppose that just sums up Star Citizen, it's a high fidelity art project & tech demo first rather than a playable game.
It's all a smokescreen that's used to give off the impression that they're building games.
Post by: dsmart on June 04, 2018, 07:36:59 AM
Post by: Motto on June 04, 2018, 10:01:31 AM
So I asked to get unbanned. Got a dumb response. Replied that it was dumb and they should just lift the ban. Now I have been muted for 72 hours before I can contact the mod again. Why don't those people like me? Like it's my fault that Derek was right?
Post by: jwh1701 on June 04, 2018, 10:42:03 AM
Oh boy... there goes Reddit.. Comparing the current roadmap to CitizenCon 2016 (https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/comments/8oa68h/comparing_the_current_roadmap_to_citizencon_2016/)
So I asked to get unbanned. Got a dumb response. Replied that it was dumb and they should just lift the ban. Now I have been muted for 72 hours before I can contact the mod again. Why don't those people like me? Like it's my fault that Derek was right?
Don't worry about getting banned its a lot of fun to see how fast I can get banned, I'm on my third account. I do not look at my messages but you can tell how well you doing by how fast the message counter goes up. I managed to go up by 11 in the last week so I must be improving.
Post by: Motto on June 04, 2018, 10:56:36 AM
Post by: jwh1701 on June 04, 2018, 11:18:45 AM
I hate being banned. Now I can't go into discussion saying that Derek was right when it all played out and he really was right. I really, really, really want to rub it in in that incestious group of utter morons.
I completely understand that desire but unfortunately my main is never coming back so I just decided to have fun. But maybe you can try and create an account that keeps you original with a few letters added.
mottothevictor
mottothejustified
mototthethejust
mottotherighteous
mottotheimpeccable
mottorightasrain
I have never tried to add and dash or underscore so not sure if you can do that for a reddit name.
Post by: dsmart on June 04, 2018, 11:22:44 AM
I hate being banned. Now I can't go into discussion saying that Derek was right when it all played out and he really was right. I really, really, really want to rub it in in that incestious group of utter morons.
Everyone has an alt waiting for that glorious day. Get one, seed it, sit on it. Or just buy one for like 5 bucks :emot-lol:
Post by: Motto on June 04, 2018, 12:26:48 PM
Post by: N0mad on June 04, 2018, 12:28:42 PM
https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/comments/8ojxso/its_coming_20180614/
Post by: dsmart on June 04, 2018, 12:44:53 PM
I'm guessing that new ship sale Derek was talking about is on its way:
https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/comments/8ojxso/its_coming_20180614/
Yup. Totally called it.
New ship sale coming 06/10. Seriously, fuck these guys. Fuck them.
FF 05:45
Post by: StanTheMan on June 04, 2018, 01:45:17 PM
I'm guessing that new ship sale Derek was talking about is on its way:
https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/comments/8ojxso/its_coming_20180614/
The Vulture
roflmao
The Felcher is still in the pipeline.
Post by: jwh1701 on June 04, 2018, 01:51:45 PM
Yup. Totally called it.
New ship sale coming 06/10. Seriously, fuck these guys. Fuck them.
FF 05:45
LOL sounds like a subconscious slip up that politicians often make: "I'm just a fraud"
I was shocked when he said that.
Post by: Spunky Munkee on June 04, 2018, 02:36:15 PM
They must be REALLY BUSY!
Busting ass cranking out those updates and progressing with those quarterly metrics. Uh huh.
Sad.
Post by: StanTheMan on June 04, 2018, 03:36:26 PM
I was watching that video with the Senior Sytems whateveryacallit and couldnt help notice the empty desks and the guy you could see in the background was watching You Tube Videos.
They must be REALLY BUSY!
Busting ass cranking out those updates and progressing with those quarterly metrics. Uh huh.
Sad.
yes ...they are not going to win the Jolly Person Of The month Award either..
(http://compeap.com/wp-content/uploads/fake-smile-229x300.jpg)
Post by: dsmart on June 04, 2018, 04:16:37 PM
I was watching that video with the Senior Sytems whateveryacallit and couldnt help notice the empty desks and the guy you could see in the background was watching You Tube Videos.
They must be REALLY BUSY!
Busting ass cranking out those updates and progressing with those quarterly metrics. Uh huh.
Sad.
Yeah, I noticed that too. I thought I was the only one.
Post by: StanTheMan on June 04, 2018, 06:51:09 PM
https://www.glassdoor.co.uk/Reviews/Cloud-Imperium-Games-Reviews-E776546.htm (https://www.glassdoor.co.uk/Reviews/Cloud-Imperium-Games-Reviews-E776546.htm)
Post by: Resin on June 04, 2018, 09:20:36 PM
A few gems from Glassdoor
https://www.glassdoor.co.uk/Reviews/Cloud-Imperium-Games-Reviews-E776546.htm (https://www.glassdoor.co.uk/Reviews/Cloud-Imperium-Games-Reviews-E776546.htm)
A lot of the management have little to no idea what they are doing, use software development methodologies from the last century and are frankly out of their depth. This causes an exponentially increasing spiral of delays that a modern experienced project manager would see coming from a mile away and know how to deal with. The project is getting ever further away from completion despite what public statements to the contrary say. These managers may have been the best of the best back in their day, but it is no longer that day and people rarely have consistent hits their entire career.
* This issue is compounded by the fact that CIG pays below industry average salaries, because they correctly think many people will want the prestige of having worked on such an exciting project to be on their CV, however you also don't get the best talent this way.
* Both the salary and management issues have caused a lot of more experienced staff who were really making the most progress to leave. A lot of the people left are fairly wet behind the ears and need a lot more mentoring before stepping up to the plate. I spent over half my time mentoring other members of staff even in areas I only have a vague passing knowledge of.
* Collectively we ended up grinding harder and harder, losing increasingly more of our lives, over smaller and smaller irrelevant things that the CEO dreamed up. This has been getting worse recently not better, especially with recent technologies added to the game that should have been implemented at the end, not now.
Show Less
Advice to Management
Hire experienced executives and professional project managers with current decade skills and qualifications - Not family members, friends or old contacts.
Post by: dsmart on June 05, 2018, 03:25:35 PM
Star Citizen had a fiction writing competition entitled "Hercules Starlifter Short Story Contest (https://robertsspaceindustries.com/spectrum/community/SC/forum/3/thread/hercules-starlifter-short-story-contest)".
So they have a winner. The prize?
A $400 JPEG (https://robertsspaceindustries.com/pledge/Add-Ons/M2-Hercules-Warbond) (ship is neither built, nor in the game).
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/De9fpNNXUAEzfCv.jpg)
Post by: Greggy_D on June 08, 2018, 12:10:03 PM
Bind Culling got pushed to 3.3. It's always the "next" patch with these guys. isn't it?
Post by: N0mad on June 08, 2018, 01:41:38 PM
But hang on... There were enemy NPCs in the Squadron 42 demo, and, come to think of it, there were enemy NPCs in the sandworm demo.
Almost as if CIG have been deceiving backers using fake tech demos to try and push ship sales.....
Post by: Motto on June 08, 2018, 02:40:19 PM
Post by: Spunky Munkee on June 08, 2018, 05:32:43 PM
These morons have earned their fate. I juist hope Robbers and Ortwin get their just deserts.
Post by: StanTheMan on June 08, 2018, 07:14:15 PM
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/De9fpNNXUAEzfCv.jpg)
For anyone wanting to role play a gay space cowboy, they ought to do a variant of this.
The Hercules Shirt Lifter.
Post by: Darklegend1 on June 08, 2018, 10:14:34 PM
A few gems from Glassdoor
https://www.glassdoor.co.uk/Reviews/Cloud-Imperium-Games-Reviews-E776546.htm (https://www.glassdoor.co.uk/Reviews/Cloud-Imperium-Games-Reviews-E776546.htm)
Cons
I don't like being critical about past employers, but after the recent round of layoffs just before 3.0 was released I felt we couldn't provide the service customers and backers of this project expected from us. So many support colleagues from my department were culled that we ended up automating the support system and basically ignoring everyone except urgent legal matters for several weeks / months.
Lol now we know for fact why its taking so long for CIG people to respond to refund tickets..
Post by: N0mad on June 09, 2018, 01:11:12 AM
How easy is it to falsely claim to be an ex employee and leave a review?
Post by: Spunky Munkee on June 09, 2018, 01:24:27 AM
DS told us that refunds would end around 3.0 as I recall. Whaddya know, He was right.
CIG is dire straits, money running low, claims that 3.0 was this big release that moved the project into a new phase of development. Yeah the enexorably borken (I like that, the perfect term for this POS) and buggy phase. Knowing that many of his formerly drugged followers would revolt when the actually got to play this mess Robbers cut them off claiming early access status. He couldnt risk having the last of his reserves bled off to the unfailthful.
Post by: Kyrt on June 09, 2018, 03:40:07 AM
Does anybody know how reliable the posts are on that site?Sure.
How easy is it to falsely claim to be an ex employee and leave a review?
It's also something that appears to be quite credible.
Post by: N0mad on June 09, 2018, 04:03:31 AM
(https://i.imgur.com/vxwCnr3.png)
Post by: dsmart on June 11, 2018, 02:00:02 PM
With 3.2 getting ready for release I thought I'd do a quick cut and paste job to see how it compares to their original promises:
Yeah, 3.2 is bare in terms of anything tangible. I am actually working on a new article which should go live later this week.
Post by: dsmart on June 12, 2018, 05:00:00 AM
Mining!! :emot-lol:
Post by: StanTheMan on June 12, 2018, 06:49:01 AM
I wonder how excited he is to see how mining has panned out.
https://robertsspaceindustries.com/comm-link/transmission/14518-Rugged-Colossus-Orion-Mining-Platform (https://robertsspaceindustries.com/comm-link/transmission/14518-Rugged-Colossus-Orion-Mining-Platform)
Not living up to the billing.
(http://s4.cdn.deahu.com/show/lfile/777BE18D076380C59687F306540567D8.jpg)
The Mining in Legend of Mir 2 way back in 2001 was more involved than this becasue you used to have to jam down a key on your keyboard to go AFK and hope someone didnt come along and kill you and get a percentage of the stuff you were carrying in your bags.
You also had to go to an actual mine and not just beat up randoms rocks you found in the world.
Getting there was a lot more difficult because you could be killed by players and NPCs (lots of them).
Post by: dsmart on June 12, 2018, 07:25:15 AM
An enterprising backer re-mixed the Star Citizen E3 trailer to match the current game's actual frame rate.
Forget about the fact that most of what's shown isn't even IN the game.
Post by: Backer42 on June 12, 2018, 07:47:43 AM
An enterprising backer re-mixed the Star Citizen E3 trailer to match the current game's actual frame rate.That are smooth even frame times. In the real experience they are all over the place depending on server load.
Post by: jwh1701 on June 12, 2018, 02:31:19 PM
https://streamable.com/qk4a4
Post by: krylite on June 12, 2018, 07:18:05 PM
Poster was right about the SC "schedule". CIG-arrests tries to 'keep pace' with Elite:Dangerous' version update release with "3.2" coming close with ED's June 28th release of its Beyond 3.1, pretending they are just a bit ahead to try to gratify their fewer remaining deluded shillizens :emot-lol:
Post by: Penny579 on June 12, 2018, 09:08:11 PM
Post by: Spunky Munkee on June 12, 2018, 10:15:20 PM
THere has to be a better term, comon guys, pitch in an idea.
Post Announced Release Period PARP 3.2
OK yo
Post by: N0mad on June 12, 2018, 11:47:27 PM
So there should be a new acronym for Star Citizen? Post Release Date PRD3.2?
THere has to be a better term, comon guys, pitch in an idea.
Post Announced Release Period PARP 3.2
Supra Completion Adjustment Measure 3.2
Post by: Noztra on June 14, 2018, 09:29:28 AM
Post by: dsmart on June 15, 2018, 02:26:35 PM
So, they unveiled the Vulture concept (https://robertsspaceindustries.com/comm-link//16618-Your-Ship-Your-Sky) (read: JPEG) ship for sale. It costs $120 warbond (aka new money), and $140 via credit (for those melting inventory).
Right. So here’s the fun part. Stay with me, it’s absolutely hilarious.
This is a mining ship that’s neither built, nor in the game. Hence the concept JPEG.
The game doesn’t yet support mining. That feature, which they have been touting since 2013, and which was due out in 2017 after 3.0 (targeted for Dec 2016), has been stripped of pretty much everything they pitched it to be. It’s now coming in the 3.2 patch which is currently in Evocati testing. And it looks like this:
The previous ship which was sold ($140 - $155) as a concept, the Prospector, got into the game (https://robertsspaceindustries.com/comm-link//16470-Newly-Flyable-Ships-Ready-For-Takeoff) back in the 3.1 release (Mar 2018). Remember, the game doesn’t yet support mining - of any kind. They started selling it during Gamescon in 2017 (https://robertsspaceindustries.com/promotions/miscprospectorgamescom).
Now, having - again - increased the scope of the game with an asset that was NEVER in the original design or plan, instead of selling the Prospector (which btw didn’t do well in sales) again, they are selling the Vulture - as a concept. And if you buy the Vulture - while not already owning a Prospector - they give you that as a loaner in the game. No, I’m not kidding.
Don’t worry though; it’s totally not a scam.
Read more in my Twitter thread (https://twitter.com/dsmart/status/1007736568193351681)
Post by: jwh1701 on June 16, 2018, 10:15:48 AM
I can’t even stop laughing as I’m typing this.
Great write up, and they things to show and do continue to make very little sense. I was waiting with anticipation to see him vaporize in the beam, that is one tuff space suit. They could at least made it a certain death if you walk into the beam.
Post by: dsmart on June 16, 2018, 12:04:50 PM
Post by: dsmart on June 18, 2018, 07:53:52 AM
Post by: N0mad on June 18, 2018, 08:02:37 AM
Post by: dsmart on June 18, 2018, 09:59:39 AM
Post by: N0mad on June 18, 2018, 12:25:37 PM
Post by: N0mad on June 18, 2018, 12:42:13 PM
Post by: jwh1701 on June 18, 2018, 12:56:47 PM
I still don't get it, am I missing something?
Chalk it to cheap pc speakers sent to my phone, even two co-workers thought the same.
Post by: jwh1701 on June 22, 2018, 02:23:00 PM
(https://s26.postimg.cc/xzqbq9wm1/ea_new_console_starcitizen.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/g9on58j11/)
Post by: jwh1701 on June 24, 2018, 12:43:29 PM
https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen_refunds/comments/8sa159/dramashitpost_lti_or_not_to_lti/
Post by: jwh1701 on June 24, 2018, 03:49:02 PM
Purchasing Commodities at GrimHex for your ship will cause it to be 'destroyed' and have to pay the insurance claim, along with losing the cargo.
Claims to have fixed 5 ctd which will being interesting to see that since this is reported often.
Post by: jwh1701 on June 24, 2018, 03:57:54 PM
Just a taste of what you can expect in Star Citizen's PU!
j/k PU is never gonna get released.
Standard YouTube License
Movie
Event Horizon
Post by: jwh1701 on June 24, 2018, 04:32:20 PM
Post by: Spunky Munkee on June 24, 2018, 08:09:03 PM
I live in constant fear that I will be found out and a crazed backer will kidnap me and force me to continue developing the game from his basement lair. He will chain me up make me wear daipers and subsist on a diet of Ramen noodles with really old anime looped, playing in the background.
Post by: the_wolfmann on June 25, 2018, 06:53:21 AM
Robbers. Blah Blah Blah. I'm just making shit up as I go along. I'm in way over my head.
I live in constant fear that I will be found out and a crazed backer will kidnap me and force me to continue developing the game from his basement lair. He will chain me up make me wear daipers and subsist on a diet of Ramen noodles with really old anime looped, playing in the background.
Chris Robbers must be treasured! That is - you should need a shovel and a map to find him.
Post by: jwh1701 on June 25, 2018, 07:41:51 AM
Robbers. Blah Blah Blah. I'm just making shit up as I go along. I'm in way over my head.
I live in constant fear that I will be found out and a crazed backer will kidnap me and force me to continue developing the game from his basement lair. He will chain me up make me wear daipers and subsist on a diet of Ramen noodles with really old anime looped, playing in the background.
Hope you are least getting tickled on a daily basis, most employers do not offer that kind of compensation.
Post by: jwh1701 on June 25, 2018, 09:10:53 PM
https://robertsspaceindustries.com/spectrum/community/SC/forum/50259/thread/ifcs-q-a
IFCS Q&A
discussion
Yesterday at 7:05 pm
Not long ago, following the 3.0 release, IFCS was an unstable mess. Since then, I have refactored IFCS, and this refactor was released as part of a 3.1 patch, restoring smooth, stable and responsive flight control. This was a major milestone in the development of the SC flight model, and while it isn't yet as solid as I want it to be (ESP broke during this refactor, but is improving as of 3.2), I believe we've reached a point where it would be valuable to present to the community a detailed description of the flight system I've been building for Star Citizen over the last 5 years.
I have presented the document as a PDF, which you can find at this link:
https://drive.google.com/open?id=1poxfPYfm32r84G4WWWJ6uK-rU6ijl85g
In addition, Brian Mundy (Noobifier) has been kind enough to provide a video overview of my document, which, in usual Noobifier fashion, boils it down to its key points.
Post by: kaylani.larelli on June 26, 2018, 08:28:53 AM
Interesting spectrum post concerning IFCS with pdf documentation.
https://robertsspaceindustries.com/spectrum/community/SC/forum/50259/thread/ifcs-q-a
IFCS Q&A
discussion
Yesterday at 7:05 pm
Not long ago, following the 3.0 release, IFCS was an unstable mess. Since then, I have refactored IFCS, and this refactor was released as part of a 3.1 patch, restoring smooth, stable and responsive flight control. This was a major milestone in the development of the SC flight model, and while it isn't yet as solid as I want it to be (ESP broke during this refactor, but is improving as of 3.2), I believe we've reached a point where it would be valuable to present to the community a detailed description of the flight system I've been building for Star Citizen over the last 5 years.
I have presented the document as a PDF, which you can find at this link:
https://drive.google.com/open?id=1poxfPYfm32r84G4WWWJ6uK-rU6ijl85g
Lurker here. Scanning this document makes me feel absolutely awful for the poor physics guy who is stuck putting in all this highly intelligent effort into a project that will probably never come to full fruition.
Also made me wonder if part of the general bugginess in SC is caused by individual ship designers not being able to fully grasp the complexities of the physics models they are dealing with:
Quote
Because the flight model in SC is complex, I have provided designers with a goal-based method for
tuning our ships, allowing them to focus on how they want the ships to perform rather than how to
achieve that performance within the simulation.
That introduces HUGE gray areas for the code to totally screw up the translation between the user's control input and the ship designer's choices and the actual underlying physics system!
Post by: N0mad on June 26, 2018, 10:15:44 AM
But here's the thing, almost none of the ships in Star Citizen are really designed to fly in space, or even in atmosphere. They're designed to look good, with almost no consideration for function. And if you're going to the trouble to calculate the performance based on thruster position and power then this matters. So clearly, despite all the physics in that document, they still just have a flight model similar to the Wind Commander games.
Post by: Gendo on June 26, 2018, 11:30:18 AM
Let's be honest here, the Physics of flight is standard stuff, especially in a vacuum. Coding the flight model to feel good to the player is hard though.
But here's the thing, almost none of the ships in Star Citizen are really designed to fly in space, or even in atmosphere. They're designed to look good, with almost no consideration for function. And if you're going to the trouble to calculate the performance based on thruster position and power then this matters. So clearly, despite all the physics in that document, they still just have a flight model similar to the Wind Commander games.
Runways in Space; why can’t croberts get away from this schlock???
Post by: N0mad on June 26, 2018, 02:29:45 PM
Runways in Space; why can’t croberts get away from this schlock???
Because he saw Star Wars when he was a kid with their space dogfights and said "I want that".
Thing about Star Wars is that George Lucas based all the space combat on old WW2 movies. The Death Star trench run was a sci-fi version of Dam Busters. And he treated the X-wings and Tie fighters like Spitfires and Messerschmitt duelling over the English Channel. He even cut WW2 dogfight movie footage into the film to show it to the producers before the special effects were available. George Lucas was responsible for a whole generation of Sci-fi Tv / Films and Video games which thought that flying in space involved a) some sort of aerodynamic design and b) was a bit like flying in air. That's one of the reasons why Babylon 5 was so good, other than the ongoing story arc, it had ships which used real Newtonian physics - ships with big thrusters fore and aft for better manoeuvrability (whether you actually need manned space 'fighters' at all in the future is really a discussion for another time).
Chris Roberts never really got the memo though. For someone who has spent his life in Sci-fi, he's far better at the Fiction bit and seems to know next to nothing about the Science.
Post by: Aya Reiko on June 26, 2018, 11:15:09 PM
Chris Roberts never really got the memo though. For someone who has spent his life in Sci-fi, he's far better at the Fiction bit and seems to know next to nothing about the Science.
Robby is that dumbass kid at school who chases trends because he thinks it'll make him look cool. (Instead, the only thing he succeeds at is making himself look like... well... a dumbass.)
Post by: dsmart on June 27, 2018, 07:49:14 AM
That he can't sell enough $45 copies of the game to sustain the studios, is the reason they have to keep selling JPEGs and making promises. Really, think about it a bit, and it has all the makings of a Ponzi scheme.
Post by: jwh1701 on June 27, 2018, 11:23:38 AM
https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/comments/8u538x/50_player_group/
BitchFantastik
32 points ·
16 hours ago
I was there too! Here's another angle https://i.imgur.com/6EDNR2q.jpg
Also, thanks for trying to push my 600i debris out of the way ;) ...turns out they aren't meant to hold 50 people.
What they left out:
1. Private Server
2. Ship failed to function every time.
3. Mod states toilets caused 600i failure
4. Seats still eat you.
https://www.twitch.tv/videos/277951253
02h54m43s
Near the end states CIG has done a super job with patch.
Post by: jwh1701 on June 27, 2018, 12:20:55 PM
Post by: BigM on June 27, 2018, 01:39:29 PM
I was able to get a little time and read thorough the ifcs doc. Seems like they have implemented a lot of assistance. I would only be able to related to anything stated by cross referencing the old ED physic videos since I have much flight time in ED. But I'm not sure if that is even possible as that would be the only way to understand the jargon. I read through a lot of the responses and wonder if anyone that still has SC access and understands the doc could comment. I always question anything they publish and wonder if this is just to excite the spenders and bring in new money.
It's always about the money. :grin:
Post by: dsmart on June 27, 2018, 02:37:19 PM
Another interesting post:
https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/comments/8u538x/50_player_group/
BitchFantastik
32 points ·
16 hours ago
I was there too! Here's another angle https://i.imgur.com/6EDNR2q.jpg
Also, thanks for trying to push my 600i debris out of the way ;) ...turns out they aren't meant to hold 50 people.
What they left out:
1. Private Server
2. Ship failed to function every time.
3. Mod states toilets caused 600i failure
4. Seats still eat you.
https://www.twitch.tv/videos/277951253
02h54m43s
Near the end states CIG has done a super job with patch.
They want to believe
Post by: jwh1701 on June 28, 2018, 05:51:21 AM
https://streamable.com/43c4x
Guy somehow clips through the ship, you catch a glimpse of him in the floor right before the pilot turns and is able to go right up to the controls.
Post by: dsmart on June 28, 2018, 08:42:17 AM
https://www.twitch.tv/videos/277951253
Meanwhile in chat:
(https://i.imgur.com/nB0WuSk.png)
(https://i.imgur.com/4wiaBGF.png)
(https://i.imgur.com/3sg7v4J.png)
(https://i.imgur.com/au5dR69.png)
Post by: N0mad on June 28, 2018, 08:53:03 AM
Bring back the death ramps and the amazing Wonka elevator - they were the best part of the game.
I'm telling you, it's Goat simulator in space... just without the Goats.
Post by: jwh1701 on June 28, 2018, 09:06:14 AM
https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/comments/8ubgwj/one_of_the_benefits_of_concierge_status_getting/
Post by: kaylani.larelli on June 28, 2018, 09:42:37 AM
I was able to get a little time and read thorough the ifcs doc. Seems like they have implemented a lot of assistance. I would only be able to related to anything stated by cross referencing the old ED physic videos since I have much flight time in ED. But I'm not sure if that is even possible as that would be the only way to understand the jargon. I read through a lot of the responses and wonder if anyone that still has SC access and understands the doc could comment. I always question anything they publish and wonder if this is just to excite the spenders and bring in new money.
With this IFCS doc I got the sense that the physics guy just desperately wants people to see and understand all the work and knowledge he has put in over the course of the project, since it is obviously being wasted by the current game experience. I imagine anyone with real expertise stuck at CIG right now who can see the end coming would want to show it isn't their fault.
Post by: jwh1701 on June 28, 2018, 11:59:04 AM
With this IFCS doc I got the sense that the physics guy just desperately wants people to see and understand all the work and knowledge he has put in over the course of the project, since it is obviously being wasted by the current game experience. I imagine anyone with real expertise stuck at CIG right now who can see the end coming would want to show it isn't their fault.
I can certainly see that as possibility for doing this. I would do the same if I thought it could help my career path and my current employer not fairing so well. I'm surprised Chris though even allowed the release of IFCS and the creator's document in this manner. I would have surmised we would have seen Chris on YouTube talking about the ifcs himself.
Post by: N0mad on June 28, 2018, 01:14:33 PM
So in the 10 minute SQ42 update ATV:
- Better player animations [NOT SQ42]
- NPC Idle animations [NOT SQ42]
- Procedural Inverse Kinematics: so hands grip different objects in a realistic way [NOT SQ42]
- Ability to inspect weapons in your hand [NOT SQ42], later to get the ability to add attachments [CRYSIS]
- Alien Rocket Launcer [SQ42 ART]
- Procedural wall destruction [NOT SQ42]
- Scrap pile assets [NOT SQ42]
- Vanduul costumes and weapons [SQ42 ART]
- Finally... a big push on Ships [$$$$]
So, nothing actually about SQ42 then, but that's all OK because to tell us ANYTHING would be "revealing key parts of the story".
Convenient.
oh, and the cute kids at the end, who will likely both be promoted to Senior Production roles by next week's show.
Post by: dsmart on June 28, 2018, 05:33:35 PM
Post by: vintologi.com on June 29, 2018, 04:20:34 AM
LTI is total bullshit, it means you just have to buy a ship once & doesn't even have to defend it.
It's just a questing of time before CiG implements something similar to lootboxes, you pay 10$ & have one chance in 25000 to win the legatus package.
Post by: Noztra on June 29, 2018, 05:52:14 AM
https://robertsspaceindustries.com/comm-link//16627-Alpha-32-Flyable-Ships
I like the new trailers. Got nothing to do with the game though.
Specially the title for the Anvil Hurricane. "See the Hurricane in action" and shows nothing in-game. :P
The Aegis Eclipse blows up and entire base.
Post by: Greggy_D on June 29, 2018, 08:21:10 AM
Post by: Lir on June 29, 2018, 08:29:20 AM
I mean they're facing scam allegations, the feds inquiries, and all they can think about is putting their kids on screen as a last attempt shield.
This is despicable, and to be honest I wouldn't be surprised for a second if this move was made in that purpose.
Post by: N0mad on June 29, 2018, 08:32:59 AM
Isn't that the sort of thing which will only happen after the collapse?
Post by: dsmart on June 29, 2018, 08:51:34 AM
They once accused Derek of doxxing, but yet they are pimping out their kids for a second time?
I am writing an article about that right now. Should go live later today.
Post by: Lir on June 29, 2018, 09:05:29 AM
Are they facing a Fed enquiry?
Isn't that the sort of thing which will only happen after the collapse?
Yeah I guess? but that doesn't remove the fact they're facing it.
Post by: vintologi.com on June 29, 2018, 09:10:58 AM
How are they supposed to satisfy the whales? it's either p2w garbage or eve online cruelty where someones get's robbed of his 27000$ legatus fleet.
Post by: Backer42 on June 29, 2018, 01:27:54 PM
maybe it will habe to go bankrupt first & someone buying the assets to finish the game.The assets are worthless.
Quote
How are they supposed to satisfy the whales?The whales are worthless, they already spent all their money on Croberts.
Just a quick reminder: Assets are worth something, when they belong to a well known brand or franchise like Star Wars and you get the license to use that with it. Whales are worth something, if they are ready to spend 200 million dollars on YOU, not after the fact.
Post by: Backer42 on June 29, 2018, 01:31:50 PM
With this IFCS doc I got the sense that the physics guy just desperately wants people to see and understand all the work and knowledge he has put in over the course of the project, since it is obviously being wasted by the current game experience. I imagine anyone with real expertise stuck at CIG right now who can see the end coming would want to show it isn't their fault.It's entirely wasted with Chris Roberts' preferred ship control method of point and click with a mouse, inherited from Freelancer.
Post by: vintologi.com on June 29, 2018, 01:43:53 PM
The assets are worthless.My experience with crowdfunding is that as long as you continue to give away money they are nice but the moment you stop they will not give a fuck about you, they simply exploit the community & nice people in general, nice guys finish last. Even if you get your money back it still means you gave them a 0% loan & took a lot of risk.
The whales are worthless, they already spent all their money on Croberts.
Just a quick reminder: Assets are worth something, when they belong to a well known brand or franchise like Star Wars and you get the license to use that with it. Whales are worth something, if they are ready to spend 200 million dollars on YOU, not after the fact.
The issue they have is legal liabilities, while they hate giving refunds they are too big to just ignore the law, smaller kickstarters can get away with that shit generally.
How much has chris roberts enriched himself via star citizen?
Post by: dsmart on June 29, 2018, 03:55:35 PM
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Dg4jQEuXkAAayYx.jpg)
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Dg4jQErW0AUsqKw.jpg)
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Dg4jQEuXkAAayYx.jpg)
Post by: vintologi.com on June 29, 2018, 04:52:48 PM
Post by: dsmart on June 29, 2018, 05:05:43 PM
Wvy the fuck should i buy a 3000$ package when i can buy shares in a solid company & make 100$/year from dividents? (enough to buy 2 games/year).
Because of the dream?
Post by: dsmart on June 30, 2018, 06:57:14 AM
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1poxfPYfm32r84G4WWWJ6uK-rU6ijl85g/view
So yeah, they're totally faking atmospheric burn. Who knew?
(https://i.imgur.com/ZlIwOoY.png)
Post by: jwh1701 on June 30, 2018, 09:55:39 AM
https://robertsspaceindustries.com/community/issue-council/star-citizen-alpha-3/STARC-61737-_Expedite_Claim__INCREASES_wait_time_by_1hr
https://robertsspaceindustries.com/community/issue-council/star-citizen-alpha-3/STARC-61753-Prospector_-_Firing_guns_scans_for_minerals
Post by: jwh1701 on June 30, 2018, 10:58:20 AM
Post by: jwh1701 on June 30, 2018, 06:54:48 PM
https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/comments/8v3za4/fps_doesnt_even_affect_me_anymore/
https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/comments/8uyt5m/not_to_name_names_but_a_certain_person_here_is/
They are looking for seasoned space game devs to come speak.
https://robertsspaceindustries.com/spectrum/community/SC/forum/50176/thread/usa-georgia-atlanta-bar-citizen-sat-jul-7-6pm
Post by: Backer42 on June 30, 2018, 07:05:32 PM
All devs should be excited that fps is not important anymore, 15fps is the new playable.Maybe this lecture helps them with performance:
They are looking for seasoned space game devs to come speak.
Post by: jwh1701 on July 01, 2018, 08:57:30 AM
Maybe this lecture helps them with performance:
Try and get time to watch that later today, looks interesting.
Post by: jwh1701 on July 01, 2018, 08:58:18 AM
Post by: jwh1701 on July 04, 2018, 05:50:32 PM
https://www.twitch.tv/videos/279921378?t=12894s
Post by: jwh1701 on July 05, 2018, 08:30:57 AM
https://gfycat.com/BelatedColorlessArachnid
https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/comments/8w85ee/you_never_know_what_can_kill_you_out_in_the_verse/
Post by: dsmart on July 05, 2018, 09:35:26 AM
Post by: N0mad on July 05, 2018, 01:46:18 PM
Is everyone except Chris and Sandi on holiday or something?
Post by: Motto on July 05, 2018, 01:52:37 PM
Post by: Motto on July 05, 2018, 02:01:18 PM
Post by: N0mad on July 05, 2018, 08:08:21 PM
In his (VERY) long rambling explanation, he wants to have ATV as a short summary rather than a whole show. In depth longer shows will be done less frequently.
BoredGamer will be out of a job at this rate.
Of course, with the inevitable feature cull from the 3.3 schedule there won't be very much to talk about anyway.
Post by: dsmart on July 06, 2018, 05:15:51 AM
Post by: jwh1701 on July 09, 2018, 11:44:52 AM
SC mentioned
https://www.viva64.com/en/b/0574/
Amazon Lumberyard is based on CryEngine's code, and, sadly, not the best version of it. It's the analysis report that makes me think so. The developers of CryEngine fixed some of the bugs in its latest version based on my two reviews, but those bugs are still living in the code of Lumberyard. We have greatly improved PVS-Studio over the last year, too, and can now detect some more bugs shared by both engines. Lumberyard is a bit messier, though. Amazon, in fact, inherited all of CryEngine's technical debt and are now building up their own, just like any other company does :).
Post by: dsmart on July 12, 2018, 03:26:52 PM
They just appeared in today's broadcast.
Post by: jwh1701 on July 14, 2018, 09:22:50 AM
https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/comments/8ypejm/me_15_minutes_ago_aw_wow_im_finally_about_to/
Post by: dsmart on July 14, 2018, 03:47:27 PM
It just all fun and laughs over on reddit not matter how bad doors, ramps or grenades work is just part of the development.
https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/comments/8ypejm/me_15_minutes_ago_aw_wow_im_finally_about_to/
"With 3.3 we will get the first real planet."
Yes, that's totally going to fix the problems on the current moons. My God, these chucklefucks are insane.
Post by: StanTheMan on July 14, 2018, 05:45:14 PM
"With 3.3 we will get the first real planet."
Yes, that's totally going to fix the problems on the current moons. My God, these chucklefucks are insane.
Chucklefucks indeed !
The try to bake a batch of cakes and they come out like tasteless rocks ...(because you are a fucking useless baker) and your customers get excited that you announce you are about to scale up production on the same recipe and they will soon be able to "enjoy" larger "cakes".
Post by: jwh1701 on July 15, 2018, 08:20:17 PM
Post by: dsmart on July 16, 2018, 04:17:37 AM
https://gfycat.com/TenderGlisteningLadybird
Post by: StanTheMan on July 16, 2018, 08:54:46 AM
Best laugh I have had all week this is just to funny.
Someone needs to do a version with them being taken from behind with a hot crumpet.
Post by: jwh1701 on July 16, 2018, 08:58:03 AM
Someone needs to do a version with them being taken from behind with a hot crumpet.
LOL don't link anymore videos with hot crumpet action. I still remember the one you posted with 3 guys helping themselves in some crazy movie.
Post by: helimoth on July 16, 2018, 10:01:36 AM
Remember when I said their entry effects were bs? They come on even when flying backwards. That means it's not based on velocity or entry dynamics at all. :emot-lol:
https://gfycat.com/TenderGlisteningLadybird
took a few minutes to register what's going on. at first I thought it was just working as intended then I realized the ship is reversing LOL
Post by: dsmart on July 16, 2018, 03:38:21 PM
@ 09:00
Post by: StanTheMan on July 16, 2018, 03:42:45 PM
Medical JPEG ship sale coming this Friday. A ship for which no game play mechanic exists. More scope creep and technical debt.
@ 09:00
Ahh yes because the Endeavor is just not enough....just like the Orion
Post by: helimoth on July 16, 2018, 04:52:30 PM
Post by: StanTheMan on July 16, 2018, 08:00:57 PM
ever notice how everyone they shove in front of a camera over at CIG looks old? fair enough a holder of a senior position in a company is likely going to be of a senior age and senior people are knowledgeable for the cameras but I can't really recall ever seeing anyone at CIG who looked younger than 30. haggard old sandy is the best we get in terms of female eye-candy; i bet they actually would quite like to have a nice looking younger girl presenting things sometimes but can you imagine monkey-skeleton sandy allowing that? LOL
30 isnt old...and they have had many people under 30 on shows and in the companies.
Post by: helimoth on July 17, 2018, 04:03:33 AM
30 isnt old...and they have had many people under 30 on shows and in the companies.
30 isn't old and I'm sure they do have exactly as you say. from my experience though; i know if CIG release a video, i'd lay evens on the hosts having a combined age of around 104 and an average weight of 300lbs. always just some disgusting fat-looking, old slob from the times i've watched. as well as the aforementioned scrawny bint sandy
Post by: N0mad on July 19, 2018, 02:13:40 PM
OK so after the latest mini-ATV, they talk about how far away they are placing Hurston (as if it will ever actually arrive with the next patch - it won't). This got me thinking. Without too much thought or research here's my logic, please correct me:
KSP (https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=276&v=mXTxQko-JH0) recon that the first noticeable jitter caused by 32bit floating point errors is at 20k (meters or game units). Since SC uses 64 bit positioning then the corresponding radius should be 20,000*20,000 = 400,000,000 units. Remember that this will be the limit of visible jitter, floating point errors will start becoming a problem in the physics sim before then (assuming that the physics grid works from the game world origin, which it may not).
An estimate from Reddit made the current PU to be a diameter or 1,000,000,000 m and therefore a radius of about 500,000,000.
So given that the current PU is already too big for "safe" 64bit positioning, how are they going to get Hurston into the PU without horrific and visible errors occurring in the physics and graphics?
Oh, and they're doing a live ship concept launch.
Post by: dsmart on July 19, 2018, 02:45:35 PM
So given that the current PU is already too big for "safe" 64bit positioning, how are they going to get Hurston into the PU without horrific and visible errors occurring in the physics and graphics?
It's all a mystery. :shrug:
Post by: jwh1701 on July 19, 2018, 05:17:30 PM
Someone needs to do a version with them being taken from behind with a hot crumpet.
Just for StanTheMan - Hot Crumpet npc action but not as visually scaring as your one video from long ago.
https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/comments/8zxz2f/what_did_they_expect_with_the_serious_lack_of/
https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/comments/9017fe/found_these_two_lovebirds_in_the_corner/
Post by: StanTheMan on July 20, 2018, 06:51:42 PM
Just for StanTheMan - Hot Crumpet npc action but not as visually scaring as your one video from long ago.
https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/comments/8zxz2f/what_did_they_expect_with_the_serious_lack_of/
https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/comments/9017fe/found_these_two_lovebirds_in_the_corner/
Lol..we have probably all found ourselves on the end of such advances..
This is metaphor for Croberts trying to get more money out of Backers...
Post by: jwh1701 on July 24, 2018, 02:21:27 PM
Lol..we have probably all found ourselves on the end of such advances..
This is metaphor for Croberts trying to get more money out of Backers...
LOL cannot believe you found a video with hot crumpet and Mr. Bean together.
Post by: N0mad on July 26, 2018, 01:10:12 PM
It's like they're not even pretending that there's any more gameplay on the way any more.
It's almost painful to watch now, but fascinating. How long until the next big disaster?
Post by: jwh1701 on July 26, 2018, 01:51:21 PM
It's like they're not even pretending that there's any more gameplay on the way any more.
It's almost painful to watch now, but fascinating. How long until the next big disaster?
LOL thx for posting, I'm waiting on that for sure.
Looked like I saw tearing, shuttering, tire failures.
Did a quick advertisement for tire upgrades to help fund development.
(https://s26.postimg.cc/6sf9lo6l5/star_citizen_firestone.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
Post by: dsmart on July 26, 2018, 06:10:06 PM
It's like they're not even pretending that there's any more gameplay on the way any more.
It's almost painful to watch now, but fascinating. How long until the next big disaster?
It really is painfully embarrassing now.
Post by: Spunky Munkee on July 26, 2018, 09:23:27 PM
They dont even manage to look like they care anymore. Sandi's like"I can't believe I'm up here with the pudgy limpdick loser pimping his sad little game when I coulda been a star"! Bubbleporn starts to look good again.
Post by: helimoth on July 27, 2018, 12:27:48 AM
It's like they're not even pretending that there's any more gameplay on the way any more.
It's almost painful to watch now, but fascinating. How long until the next big disaster?
What's hilarious is over on the reddit forums the shitizens are creaming their knickers over that video and busy theory-crafting different things seen in the video. It's like they have a memory span of about 4 - 5 weeks.
Post by: krylite on July 27, 2018, 10:48:11 AM
But it won't do much good. Much of the ED base who read the forums have already realized SC for the ponzi scam that it is by now. The ATV replaying fps-shooting from their arena module four years old isn't going to help either. Geez, SC even looks obsolete, lame and old compared to other fps/fpv games out there now.
Post by: Aya Reiko on July 28, 2018, 01:48:42 AM
Yeah, it's also amazingly pathetic how RSI tries to advertise to the Elite: Dangerous crowd who they think are still fooled into SC's unrealistic expectations spilling over to impatience for ED development. The video is basically saying to bored ED players, "Look, we have cannisters too now!, we have detailed mining first!"(before ED's Beyond 3.1.3 coming in 4th quarter), "our new ED 'imperial courier' looking rip-off ship has corridors you can walk into!"It's because they're stuck on a engine that's far too old for its own good. Never mind it wasn't built for what CiG thinks it can do with it (and it really can't).
But it won't do much good. Much of the ED base who read the forums have already realized SC for the ponzi scam that it is by now. The ATV replaying fps-shooting from their arena module four years old isn't going to help either. Geez, SC even looks obsolete, lame and old compared to other fps/fpv games out there now.
Post by: dsmart on July 28, 2018, 09:08:58 AM
Post by: jwh1701 on July 30, 2018, 09:12:19 AM
Post by: jwh1701 on July 30, 2018, 09:51:19 AM
It's like they cannot see the lack of even to coming close to just the ks goals.
https://robertsspaceindustries.com/spectrum/community/SC/forum/61894/thread/idea-for-the-science-profession-which-gives-incent
https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/comments/934tj7/idea_for_the_science_profession_which_gives/
https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/comments/932ibp/do_we_know_if_underwater_exploration_and_ocean/
Post by: dsmart on July 30, 2018, 10:21:11 AM
More requests and theory crafting, least wait till they can get ramps and doors polished.
It's like they cannot see the lack of even to coming close to just the ks goals.
https://robertsspaceindustries.com/spectrum/community/SC/forum/61894/thread/idea-for-the-science-profession-which-gives-incent
https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/comments/934tj7/idea_for_the_science_profession_which_gives/
https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/comments/932ibp/do_we_know_if_underwater_exploration_and_ocean/
Good thing that CIG just ignores them.
Post by: N0mad on August 02, 2018, 01:19:05 PM
Firstly, big LOLs to the use of FOIP for version 3.3 - as though your CPU/GPU and the servers didn't already have enough work to do they just want to throw more at it.
But, it got me thinking. Star Citizen, the best damn space sim ever to be made, and the final word in all games - has always been Chris's dream since he was young. From his point of view he will only tolerate the very highest fideilty for his perfect space sim, only the best graphics are permissible. The fact that the technology cannot make it work and the whole concept is fundamentally devoid of gameplay (and fun) doesn't really register as a concern. In many ways, seeing the video of the Spanish gamers doing mass battles on a planet surface almost validates the Chris Roberts vision - never mind the network lag and bugs. I'm sure Chris will feel vindicated, that his vision for a virtual universe where you can do anything and go anywhere has almost been created, albeit on a limited scale, and full of bugs.
The sad thing is, when SC inevitably collapses, the zealots will see Chris Roberts as a visionary, whose ultimate dream was never fully realised. They'll just leave out the bit about him being and incompetent producer who over promised, severely under delivered, and profited hugely whilst doing so.
Post by: Noztra on August 03, 2018, 12:29:29 AM
Post by: Motto on August 03, 2018, 02:57:58 AM
Post by: Noztra on August 03, 2018, 03:39:24 AM
Post by: N0mad on August 03, 2018, 03:47:29 AM
Post by: dsmart on August 03, 2018, 06:01:09 AM
So they are growing, but they employee total went from 318 to 284. :)
You read that wrong. By ending June 2017, they had 284. By ending Dec 2017, they had 318. That's an increase of +34
(https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/362664170254106624/474855114318938113/unknown.png)
Post by: dsmart on August 03, 2018, 11:05:34 AM
Matt Sherman, one of the well-known technical designers on the project departed last month. They only just noticed.
https://robertsspaceindustries.com/spectrum/community/SC/forum/3/thread/where-is-matt-sherman
He was recently talking about the Mustang rework prior to his departure
https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/comments/8y4h7a/matt_sherman_on_the_mustang_rework/
Post by: dsmart on August 03, 2018, 11:57:20 AM
Post by: dsmart on August 03, 2018, 02:42:16 PM
BEFORE (actual footage)
AFTER (lots of splicing, cutting of loading screens, jank, crashes etc)
Post by: Spunky Munkee on August 03, 2018, 05:25:35 PM
I guess sometimes it's the small things that irk me. I mean we all know the game is a buggy crapfest, thats a given but the crappy mobiglass that has to be inserted into everything just sucks moose cock. It's so distracting, taking away from the fidelity of the never ending crashes.
Truthfully, even after the editing all the janky stop motion of the players on the ground looks so ameturish. The shooter aspect of the game looks worse then many free games on steam. The real unedited footage is hillarious. Dude tries to land his Aurora and gets pushed off into a building by a glorified golf cart floating in air and it looks like kindergarteners playing with plastic toys, no explosions or damage to be seen and the golf cart still floats midair. WTF nearly $200 million for this? He had btter call this pre alpha because it sucks.
This game handled space combat so nicely. Shattered Horizons.
Sadly it was not a commercial success as it required some top notch hardware at the time (sounds familiar)( I had just bought a hot I7 with a whopping 12 gigs of ram, a lot at the time) and 0 gravity combat is much more difficult than COD. I'm not even sure if you can get a copy of this any more. You pretty much are stuck playing with Bots these days as few people play anymore. Just an example of what COULD have been done, or actually should be done but Roberts is too much of a numbskull. This was like 8 or 9 years ago, imagine what is possible these days, but not for star citizen.
Post by: dsmart on August 03, 2018, 06:05:11 PM
LIVE TWEETING MOMENTS
https://twitter.com/dsmart/status/1025463022683336706
KEY PARTS
https://youtu.be/G42MQ1aVjlA?t=615 (https://youtu.be/G42MQ1aVjlA?t=615) whats your current vision for perfect dog fighting
https://youtu.be/G42MQ1aVjlA?t=784 (https://youtu.be/G42MQ1aVjlA?t=784) actual answer part
https://youtu.be/G42MQ1aVjlA?t=874 (https://youtu.be/G42MQ1aVjlA?t=874) new IFCS
https://youtu.be/G42MQ1aVjlA?t=962 (https://youtu.be/G42MQ1aVjlA?t=962) Ifcs will be newbie friendly, old system was too complex
https://youtu.be/G42MQ1aVjlA?t=1067 (https://youtu.be/G42MQ1aVjlA?t=1067) physics rigidbody refactor
https://youtu.be/G42MQ1aVjlA?t=1162 (https://youtu.be/G42MQ1aVjlA?t=1162) previous system lived in its own world and wasnt integrated into physics system
https://youtu.be/G42MQ1aVjlA?t=1471 (https://youtu.be/G42MQ1aVjlA?t=1471) Q3 patch will be delayed
https://youtu.be/G42MQ1aVjlA?t=1843 (https://youtu.be/G42MQ1aVjlA?t=1843) ship renting
https://youtu.be/G42MQ1aVjlA?t=1964 (https://youtu.be/G42MQ1aVjlA?t=1964) UEC cap explanation its lengthy cant really clip parts of it
https://youtu.be/G42MQ1aVjlA?t=2151 (https://youtu.be/G42MQ1aVjlA?t=2151) star citizen isnt pvp and there are players with millions of uec
https://youtu.be/G42MQ1aVjlA?t=2287 (https://youtu.be/G42MQ1aVjlA?t=2287) star citizen is both pve and pvp and CR doesnt understand the drama
https://youtu.be/G42MQ1aVjlA?t=2362 (https://youtu.be/G42MQ1aVjlA?t=2362) its not a sprint its a long term race.
https://youtu.be/G42MQ1aVjlA?t=2503 (https://youtu.be/G42MQ1aVjlA?t=2503) OCS answer start
https://youtu.be/G42MQ1aVjlA?t=2636 (https://youtu.be/G42MQ1aVjlA?t=2636) OCS will increase the player count to atleast 200
https://youtu.be/G42MQ1aVjlA?t=3006 (https://youtu.be/G42MQ1aVjlA?t=3006) why they havent published roadmap this week, talks about delays that arent in roadmap yet
https://youtu.be/G42MQ1aVjlA?t=3111 (https://youtu.be/G42MQ1aVjlA?t=3111) sq42 roadmap and talks how the roadmap out aint internal one
https://youtu.be/G42MQ1aVjlA?t=3542 (https://youtu.be/G42MQ1aVjlA?t=3542) cr has personally been refactoring physics attachments system
https://youtu.be/G42MQ1aVjlA?t=3575 (https://youtu.be/G42MQ1aVjlA?t=3575) cryengine/lumberyard
https://youtu.be/G42MQ1aVjlA?t=3458 (https://youtu.be/G42MQ1aVjlA?t=3458) physics driven IFCS and decompression
@ 24:38 (https://youtu.be/G42MQ1aVjlA?t=1841)
3.3 is no longer coming end of Sept. It's going to debut on Oct 10th at CitizenCon. Which means 3.4 is now in Q1/19 (https://robertsspaceindustries.com/roadmap/board/1-Star-Citizen) territory - if they don't chop it up and push something out late Dec
@ 30:43 (https://youtu.be/G42MQ1aVjlA?t=2174)
Ship renting with aUEC is totally coming. For real.
@ 36:14 (https://youtu.be/G42MQ1aVjlA?t=2174)
Star Citizen is totally not P2W
@ 44:22 (https://youtu.be/G42MQ1aVjlA?t=2663)
Ho Lee Shit!! 200 player servers after OCS is implemented. :emot-lol:
Post by: jwh1701 on August 04, 2018, 06:04:39 PM
Today's RtV with croberts was eye-popping amazing. I can't wait for the YT video. It takes us back to the good old days when croberts would straight up lie, make shit up, and we'd all collectively lol. Good times! :emot-lol:
Thx for all the links, I would love to see you refactor the incoherent rambling, word salad into layman's terms removing the Chris fiction.
Post by: krylite on August 05, 2018, 09:00:39 PM
Post by: N0mad on August 09, 2018, 12:02:37 AM
So let me get this right: Novaquark have not only made more progress with their massive go anywhere, fly anything, BUILD anything MMO than SC. But they've done it in 4 years so far with about $12 million and 40 people?
And people still wonder why we think SC has become a scam.
Post by: David-2 on August 09, 2018, 07:52:51 AM
So let me get this right: Novaquark have not only made more progress with their massive go anywhere, fly anything, BUILD anything MMO than SC. But they've done it in 4 years so far with about $12 million and 40 people?
Now we know what the next generation of SC jpegs will look like ....
Post by: dexatron on August 14, 2018, 04:11:21 PM
Jeeze his though process is so muddled!
Was the 2012 demo just a a video? Was anything playable at that point? If not it's all just a pack of lies, from beginning to end.
And hi btw, I've been lurking here for a few years, I finally realized that the registration emails were going to spam on my email server!
Greg
Post by: dsmart on August 14, 2018, 04:50:29 PM
Was the 2012 demo just a a video?
Yes. That much has already been verified and proven. That's why NONE of what you saw in the pitch video exists today. Crytek made that demo. They said so in their lawsuit.
Quote
Was anything playable at that point? If not it's all just a pack of lies, from beginning to end.
Yes, it was playable because it was made that way. They just recorded it using the movie maker within CryEngine
Quote
And hi btw, I've been lurking here for a few years, I finally realized that the registration emails were going to spam on my email server!
Yeah, hate it when that happens
Post by: jwh1701 on August 14, 2018, 04:57:00 PM
I just wanted to make a quick comment about Chris Roberts talking about figuring out the ships control systems, that just blew my mind that this late in the game something so straight forward is not nailed down! This is the first thing I would have done.
Jeeze his though process is so muddled!
Was the 2012 demo just a a video? Was anything playable at that point? If not it's all just a pack of lies, from beginning to end.
And hi btw, I've been lurking here for a few years, I finally realized that the registration emails were going to spam on my email server!
Greg
Hindsight we find out that even from the very get go of the ks the lies started.
The interesting part is on the KS, direct quote:
"We know it may not look like this, but we do!
What you've seen was put together by a very small team over the past year. We felt that this vision needed to be shown rather than talked about so we invested our own money to build the technical and visual prototype that shows just how Star Citizen is going to push the limits of PC games."
Second is this:
David Haddock states Chris was working on the game back in 2010.
Post by: dexatron on August 14, 2018, 04:58:25 PM
it's funny that all CR had to do was deliver a new Wing Commander/Freelancer with upgraded graphics to be successful. He had everything he needed to entertain and build an engine that you could keep on developing and the community would have piled on the enthusiasm! that's my idea of a developers paradise... it would have been an instant hit with what he had shown.
I was also an early backer, and now looking back I have to ask was there ever any sincerity to his pitch?
Wing Commander games were my favorites (after Stellar Trek on the Apple ][)!
Post by: dexatron on August 14, 2018, 05:12:46 PM
28:44 -> back in 2010 - he had a very 'loose' idea of kind of what he wanted to capture... the feeling he wanted to capture...
lol how things haven't changed!
Post by: dsmart on August 14, 2018, 06:04:15 PM
Thanks for the clarification Derek,
it's funny that all CR had to do was deliver a new Wing Commander/Freelancer with upgraded graphics to be successful. He had everything he needed to entertain and build an engine that you could keep on developing and the community would have piled on the enthusiasm! that's my idea of a developers paradise... it would have been an instant hit with what he had shown.
I was also an early backer, and now looking back I have to ask was there ever any sincerity to his pitch?
Wing Commander games were my favorites (after Stellar Trek on the Apple ][)!
That's the game we all thought he was actually making. That's why we backed it. Once he figured out that he could sell scope creep, he lost the plot.
Post by: dexatron on August 17, 2018, 06:40:44 AM
Chris Roberts approaches Crytek, and convinces them to create the demo game that he crowdfunds. This demo was a huge effort materially and financially on the part of Crytek.
Crytek takes a huge risk on Chris Roberts while no one else will. Their demos must have cost a fortune, and they really worked.
CR's deal with Crytek involves collaboration so that both parties will gain. Crytek gets an enhanced engine, experience, visibility and prestige. CR gets to use a leading edge game engine at a discount to make Star Citizen and to make lots of $$$ Also there is a huge transfer of knowledge that takes place from Crytek to CIG/RSI, incuding the base space sim engine that Crytek developed.
The crowdfunding works out too well, and the CR scam is on. With a half-assed effort to develop Star Citizen, and focusing on extracting money from suckers, CIG and RSI give Crytek pretty bad heartburn over the past several years of headless non-development.
Crytek is very concerned because their name is now attached to a scam and they have absolutely no ability to bring Chris Roberts back to the ground. The jpeg storm is in full progress.
The moment when CIG/RSI jumps to Lumberyard is an Alleluia moment for Crytek, they finally have a way out and a way to deal with Chris Roberts. The history is there, they have the proof.
Along comes Derek, shines a megawatt spotlight on the whole affair, cuts through the bullshit and tells the real story. For this he is attacked nonstop.
The Shitizen zombie army swarms like angry hornets trying to protect their nest from a baseball bat, but like the hornets they are doomed. Disinformation reigns supreme.
Crytek has its moment in court, and pastes CIG/RSI to the wall.(if justice carries)
It seems to me that Crytek could finish Star Citizen /SQ42 given a chance, seeing as how it is their engine and their demo in the first place.
-----------------------------------
--> you nailed it Derek -- they are so screwed, Crytek ends up owning CIG/RSI. I can't wait to read what you have to say about the second filing!
Post by: N0mad on August 17, 2018, 08:54:19 AM
Star Citizen & SQ42, the best damn space sim ever to be made with a Hollywood cast to rival Star Wars, has always been Chris's dream. So when he miserably failed in the game industry after Freelancer, which was originally an attempt to achieve this, he shopped this idea around the game studios. As I understand nobody would touch him until Crytek game him a chance and built the demo for him (which he has claimed as his own work all these years). The mixture of Wing Commander nostalgia, Chris's name and the graphics in the demo brought out many of the fans of Chris's old games who by now had enough disposable income to throw at his kickstarter project.
The problems was: Chris really isn't very good at managing game projects. He's a salesman at heart who gets carried away with his ideas of his dream game. Nor is he very original, he has a long history of trying to copy better ideas. So when he realised that people would throw money at him for his dreams, all he had to do was increase the scope and ask for more, then sell JPEGs, then land etc. I think he really wants to make the promised game, they all do. But Chris can't make or manage games, he expects too much to be done in too little time, and even if it is done, it's never done to his satisfaction. He's also more of a movie man at heart, he cares more about the visual fidelity than other things like the underlying technology and gameplay.
All in all: Chris Roberts sold his dream, got surprised when people kept giving him money but then got greedy and kept asking for more. Walking away from the Crytek deal was probably done for greed as well: no license fee to pay (plus access to the Amazon servers).
Please correct me if I'm wrong with that summary. I Can't wait to see what happens next.
Post by: Penny579 on August 19, 2018, 07:13:13 PM
Next day hired other studios to build his game, just like a publisher.
Then pulled the rug out of the studios he hired for making the game exactly as he wanted, or progress fast enough just like a publisher.
Tried to make the game himself, with more people and a bigger budget and but has even less to show for it. To support this huger effort Now has all the evil micro and invented the macro pre-order transaction, setting new levels of evil for even for a publishers.
8 years later, he is well off but has made 2k videos on how great he is at making games, 4 web pages and a law suit but still no games....
Re-watching the original pitch video I reckon he is being sincere about his desire to make a game, then he got given millions and thought he was a rockstar developer who knew best, in Hollywood people throwing money at his feet, hanging with Mark Hammil. 8 years later its got to be dawning on him he is a fraud who fluked it. Hope he skimmed enough from the project, i'd be shocked if he finds backing for another game or movie after this.
Post by: jwh1701 on August 21, 2018, 01:30:07 PM
https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/comments/9950p9/my_personal_opinion_about_socalled_star_citizen/
Post by: dsmart on August 21, 2018, 02:36:27 PM
If you would like to see some terrible analogies that are lol and has Derek taken totally out of context this thread is for you.
https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/comments/9950p9/my_personal_opinion_about_socalled_star_citizen/
Jesus :negativeman-55f:
Post by: Spunky Munkee on August 22, 2018, 01:28:32 AM
I dont want ignorant innocent people buying in, expecting to have a great time only to find a janky buggy mess. Then they figure it's their PC at issue. After a few weeks, buying a better SSD and newer video card they realize it's not them, the game is shit and now they cannot get a refund. This happens over and over. Is this the part of belonging he is referring to? That wonderful feeling of getting commually fucked over?
Some people are just dense, not even worth arguing with.
I hope he makes an allotment and gives 10% of his gross pay to Robbers as a tithe to CIG.
Post by: StanTheMan on August 22, 2018, 04:02:11 AM
If you would like to see some terrible analogies that are lol and has Derek taken totally out of context this thread is for you.
https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/comments/9950p9/my_personal_opinion_about_socalled_star_citizen/
(https://orig00.deviantart.net/609e/f/2015/184/5/d/galactus_thinks_thanos_is_a_tool_by_ericleejohnson-d8zrjxf.jpg)
Post by: dsmart on August 22, 2018, 05:49:30 AM
Post by: Greggy_D on August 22, 2018, 08:07:11 AM
Post by: dsmart on August 23, 2018, 06:52:28 AM
You need to start charging them rent.
That would ruin the fun. Besides, right now I live rent-free inside their heads. So we have a mutual understanding.
Post by: N0mad on August 23, 2018, 01:55:44 PM
I love how all their community "emergent gameplay" events are a variation of a) seeing how many people they can get on a server and b) going from location A to location B. Damn those Star Citizens know how to have a good time.
Post by: N0mad on August 24, 2018, 12:13:44 AM
Not that they're desperate or anything, no no no.
Post by: StanTheMan on August 24, 2018, 07:02:51 AM
It is all so exciting because CRoberts is designing Sc so I can also become a Data Bummer as well and I have always wanted to incorporate Star Trek into my SC gaming.
https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/comments/99vw3x/with_all_this_talk_of_the_mercury_can_anyone/ (https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/comments/99vw3x/with_all_this_talk_of_the_mercury_can_anyone/)
Post by: dsmart on August 25, 2018, 04:38:17 AM
I love how all their community "emergent gameplay" events are a variation of a) seeing how many people they can get on a server and b) going from location A to location B. Damn those Star Citizens know how to have a good time.
And hilariously, you never actually see them doing any "game" stuff. You know, light combat and whatnot. Basically, they've paid for a screenshot taking machine. :emot-lol:
Post by: dsmart on August 25, 2018, 04:39:50 AM
Oh look another warbond concept sale:
Not that they're desperate or anything, no no no.
I am shocked. Completely. It's almost as if they need the money.
Post by: dsmart on August 25, 2018, 04:18:53 PM
https://robertsspaceindustries.com/promotions/Gamescom-Free-Fly
Post by: dsmart on August 28, 2018, 07:28:59 AM
(https://i.imgur.com/tCq6H1j.jpg)
Post by: Greggy_D on August 28, 2018, 08:03:33 AM
OCS......27%
:emot-lol:
Will NEVER make it into 3.3.
Post by: dsmart on August 28, 2018, 09:48:50 AM
Bind Culling....59%
OCS......27%
:emot-lol:
Will NEVER make it into 3.3.
Stop spreading FUD!!
Post by: Penny579 on August 28, 2018, 06:35:34 PM
Post by: StanTheMan on August 29, 2018, 03:31:45 PM
It is ok because CIG operates using the 20 80 rule, where the first 20% of the progress takes 80% of the time.
you might want to try and inject that into Backers minds. it would be interesting to see how ingrained into their excuses that you you could get this idea.
Post by: dsmart on June 20, 2019, 06:40:03 AM
Someone hacked his Twitter account some hours ago.
(https://i.imgur.com/jpQu3VL.png)
https://twitter.com/croberts68/status/1141621682664300546
Post by: wiser3754 on June 20, 2019, 04:33:18 PM
Post by: mtn355 on July 10, 2019, 01:53:18 PM
https://www.slant.co/topics/6480/viewpoints/6/~space-sims-on-pc~star-citizen
no pros, just cons (!)
Post by: dsmart on July 10, 2019, 03:12:25 PM
Just stumbled upon this gem:
https://www.slant.co/topics/6480/viewpoints/6/~space-sims-on-pc~star-citizen
no pros, just cons (!)
:emot-lol:
Post by: Judge_dolly_OG on July 11, 2019, 12:19:14 AM
Quote
The commercial launch of the persistent universe game will be sometime in 2016.
Can't wait.
Post by: mtn355 on July 12, 2019, 01:20:52 PM
no pros, just cons (!)Have to correct this, for completeness sake. there _are_ pros.
:emot-lol:
But the first time i viewed the site there were no pros shown to me -
that's why I laughed hard, too - and immedeatly posted here!
FWIW, Have a nice and relaxed weekend.
Post by: mtn355 on July 12, 2019, 01:23:27 PM
Just stumbled upon this gem:
https://www.slant.co/topics/6480/viewpoints/6/~space-sims-on-pc~star-citizen
no pros, just cons (!)
Oh, it would be so much fun if hte goonies could help voting on this ...
Post by: dsmart on July 18, 2019, 04:11:58 PM
Post by: ronron on January 20, 2020, 02:40:09 PM
Quote
This subreddit has been suspended for repeated hate crimes against video games. The moderator team has been dismissed and replaced. Contact the new moderators for more info.
"Hate crimes against video games?" WTF? LOL!
I'd love some info from the kicked mod team what the hell happened today.
Post by: Judge_dolly_OG on January 20, 2020, 10:48:21 PM
r/starcitizen_refunds has been taken down and it looks hostile!
"Hate crimes against video games?" WTF? LOL!
I'd love some info from the kicked mod team what the hell happened today.
They are trolling, they set the sub private door giggles.
Post by: dsmart on January 28, 2020, 02:10:37 PM
Post by: jwh1701 on February 18, 2020, 11:00:20 AM
https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/comments/f5o7rs/looking_away/
Post by: jwh1701 on February 22, 2020, 06:18:21 PM
https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/comments/f7zqj3/updated_carrack_owners_atm/
One back post.
Yep, I brought the cx8 upgrade for my carrack and when I brought it I then couldn't spawn the pieces, now it's hit me again as the carrack drops. Yes I know it's a bug but it's a very annoying one for those of us who spent extra, the carrack has been my dream for a long time now, I have backed this game since 2013 and even over $4500 in pledges over the years I still think it will be the best space games ever produced.
Post by: jwh1701 on February 23, 2020, 04:08:09 PM
https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/comments/f8bsvg/ship_experience_team_i_would_like_you_to_review/
Post by: wiser3754 on February 23, 2020, 10:31:52 PM
Post by: N0mad on February 24, 2020, 12:13:24 AM
Post by: wiser3754 on February 24, 2020, 02:35:58 AM
You have to hand it to CIG - they know their audience. Give them a big shiny ship to fly around and they won't notice the lack of progress on all the other promised features.
Until the shine comes off their new shiny ship and like the 890 jump, it won't be too long.
Post by: jwh1701 on February 28, 2020, 01:45:03 PM
Did I miss proc-gen in the video and why are they are still trying to find solutions?
Post by: N0mad on February 28, 2020, 02:20:31 PM
Sean said in 2016 the planet proc-gen was beyond anything anyone else had in the industry.
Did I miss proc-gen in the video and why are they are still trying to find solutions?
I skipped through the video, it all seemed pretty dull, but yes this is procedural generation. Just because you're using an algorithm (hence procedural) to generate the detail doesn't stop you from having lots of settings you can tweak to get the effect you want. Nor does it stop you from having hand-crafted areas where required. The SC tech is better than No Mans Sky to be honest, but, like the rest of the 'game' it's been designed to look pretty rather than provide any interactivity which is what a game actually needs.
Post by: jwh1701 on February 28, 2020, 03:32:45 PM
I skipped through the video, it all seemed pretty dull, but yes this is procedural generation. Just because you're using an algorithm (hence procedural) to generate the detail doesn't stop you from having lots of settings you can tweak to get the effect you want. Nor does it stop you from having hand-crafted areas where required. The SC tech is better than No Mans Sky to be honest, but, like the rest of the 'game' it's been designed to look pretty rather than provide any interactivity which is what a game actually needs.
All very true, I just find it funny that they were close to completion per Sean but 4 years later looking at what little they managed and still looking for solutions is mind boggling.
Post by: N0mad on February 28, 2020, 05:44:56 PM
Planets are no different in that regard. They may look pretty, and they have some pretty serious tech behind them, but what is there to actually DO other than fly around taking virtual selfies?
Post by: DemonInvestor on February 29, 2020, 04:56:37 PM
Post by: StanTheMan on February 29, 2020, 09:56:59 PM
The biggest issue, in my opinion, is that CR seems to prioritise visuals above all else. The less visual parts of a game: AI, physics, network code, gameplay are all ignored in favour of "fidelity".
Planets are no different in that regard. They may look pretty, and they have some pretty serious tech behind them, but what is there to actually DO other than fly around taking virtual selfies?
Because his Hollywood buddies and those he wants to impress are not gamers.
If he is lucky CRoberts will get some of them to look at the visuals and hear a few voice over celeb names and that is all he needs.
Post by: jwh1701 on February 29, 2020, 10:13:49 PM
(https://i.redd.it/ekb7f6emjyj41.png)
Post by: wiser3754 on March 01, 2020, 03:38:50 PM
https://reddit.app.link/YwKwveeLv4
Post by: jwh1701 on March 01, 2020, 03:49:18 PM
You know, I'd thought that the backers who own and don't own yhe new shiny shil, the Carrack, would ve pleased about it's inception. Clearly the catalogue of memes going around in this Reddit thread think otherwise.
https://reddit.app.link/YwKwveeLv4
LOL thx, seeing all the guys say criticism is important = double face palm.
Post by: jwh1701 on March 20, 2020, 10:12:50 AM
https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen_refunds/comments/flyj1k/roberts_supposed_kicked_off_star_citizen_project/
Post by: N0mad on March 20, 2020, 12:01:45 PM
Look through the guy's past videos, he's a critic rather than a fan. I'm guessing that he's pissed at CIG for not giving a refund & losing a lot of money or something.
He sounds pretty conspiratorial and all he quotes are "anonymous" sources.
I think this needs filing in the crackpot bin, at least until it gets reported independently by someone else (Derek / media), .
Post by: helimoth on March 23, 2020, 04:43:32 PM
However there are some costs which CIG won't be able to escape as easily - those offices attract a lot of rent and it's not like you can just turn all the lights off and pack up shop. You need people physically on site to maintain systems and you need to keep the place powered. They might also experience higher-than-usual server loads due to lots of bored people self-isolating and logging in meaning even more spend on maintaining those services. None of this will come cheap. That's just their UK office without even considering their others. On top of all that you just know that CR/Sandi and the rest of those leeches aren't going to stop taking out their monthly slice. I can't see content being as easy to churn out with staff all working remotely so it's not like they can just mass release ships to stay afloat.
This could also be a time when a lot of whales abandon the game. They are bored, stuck in isolation at home and they aren't going to be playing star citizen for very long because there is no game there and so will naturally look elsewhere. Just takes a few of the big spenders to get hooked elsewhere to make a dent in CIGs book.
Post by: krylite on March 27, 2020, 10:41:46 PM
LOL
Yeah, I remember seeing an earlier video of that guy about where he and some friends went to CIG on a trip and realized their server infrastructure and development for the game was nowhere near able to support the idea of SC. I had a hoot hearing him repeat "it's a scam...it's a scam" in the rest of that video.
Does anyone have any thoughts as to what kind of impact Covid-19 will have on SC? On top of all that you just know that CR/Sandi and the rest of those leeches aren't going to stop taking out their monthly slice. I can't see content being as easy to churn out with staff all working remotely so it's not like they can just mass release ships to stay afloat.
I would guess it depends how much the whole of CIG is set up to be able to manage their resources remotely. Interestingly, Frontier had notified customers they had moved all staff to work at home remotely. (https://www.frontier.co.uk/news/latest-news/update-frontier-about-covid-19-situation) ED is already a developed working version 1.1722 game, with a finished working peer to server infrastructure so maybe they were better equipped to leave their newer one building office. They also announced yesterday Fleet Carriers are finally arriving by June with a beta period in April next week, so apparently they can still move along with this while working under remote conditions: (https://forums.frontier.co.uk/threads/fleet-carriers-content-reveal-announcement.539505/)
Post by: dsmart on April 01, 2020, 11:55:39 AM
Can't believe I'm about to argue this like a shitizen BUT:
Look through the guy's past videos, he's a critic rather than a fan. I'm guessing that he's pissed at CIG for not giving a refund & losing a lot of money or something.
He sounds pretty conspiratorial and all he quotes are "anonymous" sources.
I think this needs filing in the crackpot bin, at least until it gets reported independently by someone else (Derek / media), .
I agree. It's all bollocks. Also, old video. So.
Post by: dsmart on April 01, 2020, 01:53:14 PM
It would also explain why the Calders decided to exercise their discount share price option when in fact they gave CIG $46m back in Summer 2018 for a game was supposed (yup, it's been delayed again) to be in Beta *THIS* qtr for a 2020 release.
https://twitter.com/dsmart/status/1245453181812977669
Post by: dsmart on April 01, 2020, 02:38:17 PM
BREAKING! Word is a sizable portion of that $17.5m (triggered option) was used to settle the lawsuit with Crytek. Probably because CIG didn't have the cash on hand to fork it out. If true, I'm verily shocked.
It would also explain why the Calders decided to exercise their discount share price option when in fact they gave CIG $46m back in Summer 2018 for a game was supposed (yup, it's been delayed again) to be in Beta *THIS* qtr for a 2020 release.
https://twitter.com/dsmart/status/1245453181812977669
Mar 23rd
https://www.docdroid.net/MjI2SL9/govuscourtscacd6964371260.pdf
Mar 27th
https://cloudimperiumgames.com/blog/corporate/cloud-imperium-additional-investment-from-existing-investors
I am pretty sure that's just a coincidence though :emot-yikes:
Post by: Motto on April 01, 2020, 02:45:45 PM
Post by: dsmart on April 01, 2020, 03:23:37 PM
https://www.twitch.tv/videos/577242378?t=0h12m10s
Quote
- Guessed prior to announcement that it was original investors
- Spotted that the small buy in (9250 shares) was half of Infatrade initial buy in. They got it for 52% of original price. Indus (Calders) seemingly got theirs for 85% of initial price. The discounts suggest an actioned contractual right.
- Possibly an anti-dilution strategy. IE if more share issuing on the way.
- Corresponds roughly with Erin being moved off SQ42 etc in Jan. Possibly reflects a milestone being hit (or more likely missed).
- Indus would go up to 13% from 10% it seems, diluting Chris/Erin/Ortwin etc. (Over time could reduce Chris to below 50%, but not in striking distance yet)
Post by: wiser3754 on April 02, 2020, 06:25:39 PM
If so, can the Calders use proxies or third parties to shadow purchase controlling interest thereby kicking Chris off the chairman of the board?
Post by: StanTheMan on April 03, 2020, 08:12:46 PM
I have to ask, if CRoberts and CiG are fearing a controlling interest from the Calders in the form of a 51% purchase, CiG would've included a clause to limit that yeah?
If so, can the Calders use proxies or third parties to shadow purchase controlling interest thereby kicking Chris off the chairman of the board?
That's is a plausible sounding (to me) exit strategy once they have exhausted all the corona virus angles on ships, aliens, professions and face mask sales etc..
Post by: dsmart on April 04, 2020, 05:31:34 AM
I have to ask, if CRoberts and CiG are fearing a controlling interest from the Calders in the form of a 51% purchase, CiG would've included a clause to limit that yeah?I doubt it. The Calders won't need a controlling interest if their goal is to get rid of or sideline croberts. They aren't amateurs.
If so, can the Calders use proxies or third parties to shadow purchase controlling interest thereby kicking Chris off the chairman of the board?
Also, there's no way they would have agreed to a contract that limits their ability to gain 51% of the company. Remember that back in 2018 when they gave $46m, they were in a position of strength because the project was insolvent. So Calders would have got anything they asked for at the time.
Post by: jwh1701 on April 08, 2020, 01:31:52 PM
I doubt it. The Calders won't need a controlling interest if their goal is to get rid of or sideline croberts. They aren't amateurs.
I still do not understand the reason for the investment from the entities involved. I tried to work through every angle as an investor and just cannot fathom why? No matter who they removed they still have a mess that is mostly likely in need of a restart. There is so much wrong with CI for me to grapple with I cannot see why they believe they could break even let alone windfall profits.
I keep thinking there is so much going on in the background that they are not letting anyone know about. PS5 / Xbox releases? Chris hoodwinking them but I doubt it.
Post by: DemonInvestor on April 09, 2020, 01:19:47 AM
Well the whole thing is a high risk, high reward move. If they've negotiated well, they've secured additional brand rights. Meaning if CIG actually pulls off the release of something pulling in even bigger amounts of player, it could be quite a profitable brand (Star citizen the vacuumer, Star Citizen the flamethrower...). I mean the whole thing has quite the pull in the media.
Another thing is looking at how many stuff gets a minimum viable release and still keeps making money - when actually cutting back big time on devs.
But again, i personally don't see them having made a great decision with their investment. It's always about expectations with investment and mine might be overly negative, their overly positive. Who's right will be seen in the future - though we all have our expectations ;)
Post by: N0mad on April 09, 2020, 03:07:33 AM
- keep the PU as-is, but just add bug fixes and sell new ships
- Move all devs to concentrate on the single player game but scale it back to individual levels rather than a galaxy sized open world
- Recycle the art assets into different projects
- Failing all that: take all the SQ42 art work and mo-cap and make an animated film / series for Netflix
Post by: dsmart on April 09, 2020, 07:10:56 AM
I mean, a bunch of investors kept giving Theranos money - even after it was widely known that they whole thing as a massive scam. It's not a new thing for investors to foolishly throw money away.
Post by: jwh1701 on April 09, 2020, 10:11:36 AM
It's the standard high risk, high reward investor scenario. Worst case they would get the Star Citizen and Squadron 42 brands which are worth more than the money ($46M + $17.5M) they gave to Chris. Remember that these guys are into music and movies too. I outlined it all in my 2018 blog (http://dereksmart.com/2018/12/star-citizen-a-new-dawn/).
I mean, a bunch of investors kept giving Theranos money - even after it was widely known that they whole thing as a massive scam. It's not a new thing for investors to foolishly throw money away.
LOL i keep forgetting about Theranos and I'm faking a deep voice lady. My failure is trying to trying to think logically about investors. Even if the brand is worth more I can easily imagine is costing double or more to fix it.
Post by: jwh1701 on April 09, 2020, 09:53:22 PM
@jwh1701
But again, i personally don't see them having made a great decision with their investment. It's always about expectations with investment and mine might be overly negative, their overly positive. Who's right will be seen in the future - though we all have our expectations ;)
That's my long-term feeling on how this will workout.
Post by: jwh1701 on April 09, 2020, 09:56:57 PM
If I were them I'd do the following:
- keep the PU as-is, but just add bug fixes and sell new ships
- Move all devs to concentrate on the single player game but scale it back to individual levels rather than a galaxy sized open world
- Recycle the art assets into different projects
- Failing all that: take all the SQ42 art work and mo-cap and make an animated film / series for Netflix
We should have an contest on who can thoery craft on the outcome of the investment if it ever materializes.
Post by: dsmart on April 10, 2020, 08:38:11 AM
LOL i keep forgetting about Theranos and I'm faking a deep voice lady. My failure is trying to trying to think logically about investors. Even if the brand is worth more I can easily imagine is costing double or more to fix it.
There's nothing for them to fix though, because I don't see them putting money into the project if it fails. They will just abandon or shut down (someone has to pay the staff, servers etc) the project and make movies out of the IP or something like that.
Post by: dsmart on April 10, 2020, 09:10:15 AM
(https://i.imgur.com/ZNy8Jhd.png)
:negativeman-55f:
Post by: jwh1701 on April 10, 2020, 04:24:10 PM
Meanwhile, back at the ranch
CI should have a disclaimer in "1" size font on everything they state since nothing they say is definitive. They always appear to be saying much but never really of substance.
Post by: ewhac on May 15, 2020, 12:30:00 AM
I hadn't launched the game in well over a year, and have been aggressively ignoring all the emails, so I didn't know what to expect. After letting the thing download a 20GiB hairball overnight, I gave it a try, expecting to materialize on Olisar, EVA up to the rings, and watch the space traffic go by...
Nope.
First I'm expected to spend a ton of time customizing my appearance, using a UI that seems to have ignored the last 15 years of progress on this issue (TES4:Oblivion did this better) -- all of which is utterly pointless as no one can see you under the helmet.
Finally the game proper deigns to launch. All the jankiness is still there; the utter lack of tutorials or even hints of where to go and what to do; all the questionable UI choices; all the hammering, hammering, hammering on my HDD. But apparently the greatest problem faced by Star Citizen -- a space game -- was that it started you on a space station. In space.
Well, they fixed that, and how. I materialized in a surprisingly spacious apartment to discover myself, not in a shiny, gleaming space station, but in a dirty, planet-bound apartment building, in the middle of an industrial dystopia. Yay. It takes a full 30 seconds for all of the geometry to finally pop in, just for this small room. And this isn't like LOD or texture popping like you get in actual games, where stuff is there and gradually resolves. No. One moment, you're looking at a desk all by its lonesome on the other side of the room; the next moment, poof! a chair appears in front of it.
There are two doors in the apartment. One leads outside; the other leads to... the toilet. ...I can't properly express my bewilderment at this room. A panel on the wall shows as selectable. I select it, and out comes a toilet. (*shakes head in bewilderment*) Someone had to model this. Someone had to animate it. Someone had to wire all that up into the UI and code. WHY!???! Who the hell is asking for realistic bodily waste elimination facilities in any game?
Anyhoo, without any prompting whatsoever, I discover that my first task in this meticulously detailed space-themed game is... Figure out the subway system. By almost pure luck, I manage to find my way to Tease A Spaceport (or something like that) where I can allegedly summon my ship and, allegedly, fly to space. So naturally I didn't do that, because obviously my entry-level, uninsured Aurora was going to explode if I so much as looked at it sideways. Instead I wandered around Cal Worthington's space dealership to see what the latest JPEGs looked like. It was around this time I got disconnected from the server, but not before noticing some of the ship models were clipping through the floor.
I connected again to a different server (Stanton, I think), but quickly found myself trying to occupy the same space as my bunk, and couldn't move. "Well, if I can glitch through the bunk, maybe I can glitch through the ceiling, too, and get out of here." And glitch through the ceiling I did, escaping all geometry, and fell several thousand feet into the sub-ocean and died.
I also tried loading up one of the hangars, and got a giant empty room, with no idea of how to put a ship in it.
I messed with it for about 40 minutes before remembering that I have a life, and did something else. During that entire time, my poor HGST Ultrastar was thrashing its brains out.
There is simply no there there. And now that he makes you go through all this rigmarole just to get to SPACE -- the only appealing part of this whole thing -- even that there effectively isn't there at all.
Post by: dsmart on May 15, 2020, 09:08:07 AM