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Games => Star Citizen => Topic started by: dsmart on November 21, 2016, 06:12:15 PM

Title: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: dsmart on November 21, 2016, 06:12:15 PM
So the year is almost ended. We've had GamesCom, CitizenCon, and recently the anniversary stream - none of which have shown any signs that the game is coming any time soon.


I still don't believe that the game pitched can ever be made; and 2017 is going to be the year that it all collapses.


Your thoughts?
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: Gradis on November 21, 2016, 07:21:11 PM
its all fucked with t-bags is my sincere opinion
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: Dementropy on November 21, 2016, 08:26:23 PM
You mean T-poses.
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: Scruffpuff on November 21, 2016, 08:48:28 PM
I've made my opinion tragically clear on the SA forums and elsewhere, but I'll summarize here for posterity.  The game as pitched will never be made ... by Chris Roberts.

A skilled leader with a good studio might be able to release something along these lines someday.  I'm sure the $130 million has not gone magically unnoticed by real game development studios - for all we know there's already a real game like this being made somewhere, and every pit CIG falls into buys them time, confidence, and laughter.

There is absolutely no aspect of this project that hasn't been tragically mismanaged.  None.  I could list them here but I'd be typing all night - the enormity of Chris's ineptitude is absolutely staggering.  Every single thing he's done and every choice he's made is the absolute diametric opposite of the correct way to go about making a game.

As thorough as Derek's blogs are, they only scratch the surface.  Think about how much he's written - the vast tomes of accumulated and sourced data - and realize that you're reading less than 20% of what's wrong at CIG.  This isn't just an issue of "can the game be made."  It's so far beyond that it's incredible.

We're going to be dissecting this corpse for years.  Future game developers will use this as a case study in failure.  Chris's failure is so immense that the impact tremors have actually damaged studios they've worked with, and the careers of people involved.

It's incredible.
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: David-2 on November 21, 2016, 08:49:34 PM
I'm not a player/game owner but looking at Major Tom's latest video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=223HFmhtOOY) on 2016-11-21 it is astonishing how crappy the software is.  Collision avoidance (clipping) errors are ubiquitous (and hilarious)!  (I especially like the people walking through each other.) He's still able to fly in space without a spacesuit with the thrusters jetting out of the avatar's body like erupting pimples.  Random pieces of ... stuff ... just appear and disappear in front of him.  >$100M flushed down the toilet!  There's no way this game could ever be finished at all, much less in 2017.

By the way, one thing I really enjoy about the progress updates on the RSI site is how often they "refactor" something as if that's a normal course of events for a large project: to write and rewrite and rewrite one piece of code after another.  I've been a hard-core developer for 40 years (C, C++, C#, Java, Assembly) at many major software development companies and have never seen this level of fail on a project that eventually shipped anything. (In fact, I've never seen this level of fail: projects are cancelled by Microsoft/Oracle/Google/Amazon/etc. long before they reach this stage.)

"Refactoring" is meant to be a very small scale and localized rewrite of a limited piece of code in order to pave the way for future development/enhancement.  To label something major a "refactoring" is a way a late/distracted/confused developer attempts to pull the wool over his manager's eyes - and it may even work for one or two sprints - but try it the third time in a row and he'll find himself with a "performance plan" and on the way out.  The idea that the chief guru/designer/visionary of this sad production himself uses the term over and over and over again to explain that there's "progress" means that actually there's nothing but flailing and failure.  D.S. can confirm this, of course.
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: David-2 on November 21, 2016, 09:00:02 PM
Speaking of lack of progress ... for how many months now has Major Tom been posting videos of his avatar going out on the deck of the space station and flying around in space without his spacesuit?  How is it possible that "fixing" this wasn't the highest priority as soon as it showed up?  Aren't they at all embarrassed by how ridiculous Major Tom's videos make the game look with the thrusters jetting out of the guy's body and skivvies? I crack up every time I see it.
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: Propagandist on November 21, 2016, 09:13:27 PM
He can only do that by hacking his .cfg files, which is completely unallowed and absolutely the definition of hacking, and I'm sure the invisible hand of the SC community will swiftly put a stop to his hacking antics in the PU.   :)
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: Scruffpuff on November 21, 2016, 09:22:29 PM
Speaking of lack of progress ... for how many months now has Major Tom been posting videos of his avatar going out on the deck of the space station and flying around in space without his spacesuit?  How is it possible that "fixing" this wasn't the highest priority as soon as it showed up?  Aren't they at all embarrassed by how ridiculous Major Tom's videos make the game look with the thrusters jetting out of the guy's body and skivvies? I crack up every time I see it.

David,

I'm not sure how closely you've followed the SA thread but there's a fabulous explanation for why it's like this.  I apologize in advance if you already know the details.

See, Major Tom had a hunch that Star Citizen doesn't actually have any code in it that differentiates air from a vacuum.  (Particularly onerous since "fidelity" is their rallying cry, and firearms would act differently in both environments, but I digress.)  His theory was that the reason people died outside without a space suit is because they had a simple trigger on the airlock door switch.  If you're wearing the spacesuit when you hit the switch, you're fine.  If not, then it just kills you.

He made a video while he tested his theory.  He went in the airlock and waited for someone else to hit the switch.  Voila - no problems, and he can walk outside naked.  Of course with the high quality of the game and its engine he also accomplishes the same thing regularly by simply clipping through the airlock door.

So he was right - no actual zone properties for vacuum or air, just a simple hack they put in at the last second after introducing outfits to the game.

Which means, as we all know, an absolutely tremendous amount of work.  Maybe not for a game development studio, but definitely for CIG.
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: David-2 on November 21, 2016, 10:16:59 PM
He made a video while he tested his theory.

I saw that video!  I agree with your description of it.  But I do disagree with your assessment that fixing it is a tremendous amount of work.  I believe it is a moderate to minor amount of work.  I'm not going to explain why I think that though - but it has to do with my belief that you can't populate a simulated world with "objects" that behave in flexible ways without having some form of "property bag" system for each object including a hierarchical "inheritance" system for objects from their "classes" and "superclasses".  And in a system such as this you would build it from the beginning with multiple hierarchical inheritance systems ... some static (is-a) and some dynamic (located-in, owned-by).

If they don't have such a system built in ... then yes it's a tremendous amount of work ... but its so obvious that such a thing is needed for this kind of simulated world why would you not have it?

Well, I guess I did explain why I think that.  And it has to do not with my experience building games, but my building developer tools (IDEs and compilers) and multi-tenant SAS software.  This concept (multiple inheritance hierarchies of properties) appears over and over in software systems.

And maybe this kind of fix (checking an inheritable property of the object (in this case, the avatar) against an inheritable property of the avatar's location) wouldn't solve projectile ballistics in vacuo but it would be sufficient to prevent the embarrassment of naked pilots floating in space, parp parp parp.

He can only do that by hacking his .cfg files

So I've seen this claim once or twice in comments on his videos, but I don't get it.  Are you saying this game ships with user-changeable files that allow a user to, for example, turn off collision detection?  Is that a common thing in shipping games?  Or in "alpha" games?  I get that software (including games) frequently have debugging modes, sometimes controlled by property files, that alter software behavior, but usually that stuff isn't shipped.  Or if it is shipped (so that you can, for example, troubleshoot software installed on users' devices) it is typically under manufacturer control - residing in a database accessed indirectly by the client through the server it is connected to, or in an encrypted file that customer service sends to the affected customer.

I guess CIG could do otherwise given their claim the software is in "alpha" - i.e., plan to tighten things up later - but given that there is so much concern among gamers about cheating in networked multi-player games I would think a game studio would want to lock that stuff down in the beginning to avoid bad reviews.  What's the story here?
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: Propagandist on November 21, 2016, 10:34:50 PM
So I've seen this claim once or twice in comments on his videos, but I don't get it.  Are you saying this game ships with user-changeable files that allow a user to, for example, turn off collision detection?  Is that a common thing in shipping games?  Or in "alpha" games?  I get that software (including games) frequently have debugging modes, sometimes controlled by property files, that alter software behavior, but usually that stuff isn't shipped.  Or if it is shipped (so that you can, for example, troubleshoot software installed on users' devices) it is typically under manufacturer control - residing in a database accessed indirectly by the client through the server it is connected to, or in an encrypted file that customer service sends to the affected customer.

I guess CIG could do otherwise given their claim the software is in "alpha" - i.e., plan to tighten things up later - but given that there is so much concern among gamers about cheating in networked multi-player games I would think a game studio would want to lock that stuff down in the beginning to avoid bad reviews.  What's the story here?


Idiot commandos claimed he was "hacking his config files" in order to do the silly shit he does in his videos.  When he's not, he's doing things that any QA tester worth a shit would do.  Like run into a wall to see if you can teleport through it.  We just use the phrase as a joke. 
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: ConfusedMonkeh on November 22, 2016, 05:47:23 AM
So the year is almost ended. We've had GamesCom, CitizenCon, and recently the anniversary stream - none of which have shown any signs that the game is coming any time soon.


I still don't believe that the game pitched can ever be made; and 2017 is going to be the year that it all collapses.


Your thoughts?


My thoughts are, you're full of poop Mr. Smart. As ever. You were convinced 2016 wouldn't be seen out by CIG, never mind the infamous 90 days tops comments. You also promised I wouldn't be banned from your discord on your twatter feed but that turned out to be complete bollox too.


CIG are showing progress at each event they hold. Your over riding narcissism and jealousy prevent you from backing down from any previous statements made despite being proved wrong again and again. By jealousy I mean that you're jealous of the attention and funding Chris and David have received upon returning to video game development when your latest game flounders in obscurity and insignificance. I understand that. It's only human.


I've posted this elsewhere and I feel it fair to post it here too. You became convinced they couldn't make this game after reading a dev blog in June or July of 2015 that mentioned the 64 bit conversion. You stated it was too much work to complete and starting it then was far too late and shortsighted. Fact is they had started the conversion years before that. That dev blog actually stated that they had almost finished the work on the conversion and it was great to see the fruits of their labour coming together and making the game possible.


Your entire crusade has been off the back of reading incomprehension. Good work. Now I'm not going to pretend that CIG are perfect or development has been an easy road because I'm not an idiot...well, not completely, but they are doing things never done before. 64 bit CryEngine maps is new. No matter how often you try to say otherwise. Doing things never done before will be a rocky road. The Wright brothers didn't fly across the Atlantic first time and Mr Ford didn't create the Model T in a fortnight. Your ELE has been ongoing for quite some time now. Mass walk outs were predicted... Funding stopping was predicted... Seeing out 2016 was going to take a miracle... Now it's 2017 that won't be seen out. What happens when we approach 2018, will you make the same prediction then as well?


2.5 million in 4 days isn't too shabby. It suggests to me that general backer faith isn't wavering despite the usual malcontents on the forums. The game is coming. Squadron 42 first and then some form of MMO after. Of course it won't be feature complete on release, they've always said that, but it's going to be special and no amount of BS from DS will stop it.


We still haven't seen any legal action yet despite you saying you were walking into a federal building quite some time ago now. Why have you not initiated legal proceedings with all this evidence you claim to have?


I thank you for the endless entertainment over the last couple of years though. Please don't change.
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: AP on November 22, 2016, 05:58:55 AM
The game is coming. Squadron 42 first and then some form of MMO after. Of course it won't be feature complete on release, they've always said that, but it's going to be special and no amount of BS from DS will stop it.


I too look forward to your special incomplete game being released.  Are you picking anything up in one of the current sales?
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: ConfusedMonkeh on November 22, 2016, 06:09:38 AM
The game is coming. Squadron 42 first and then some form of MMO after. Of course it won't be feature complete on release, they've always said that, but it's going to be special and no amount of BS from DS will stop it.


I too look forward to your special incomplete game being released.  Are you picking anything up in one of the current sales?

Your question is irrelevant. The game being incomplete does not preclude being special. I believe they can pull off enough to make it an excellent gaming experience. You obviously don't. That's OK. Excellence is very subjective but messing around in the broken and buggy alpha shows me enough to suggest something special coming down the road. How far down is another question. Less irrelevant, as funding can't go on forever despite appearences to the contrary.

It's cute you've followed Derek from SA to here by the way. Not a cult huh? Something something glass houses and stone throwing.
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: AP on November 22, 2016, 06:27:23 AM
Sorry I asked if you were buying anything in the sales, I wouldn't have brought the subject up if I'd known you have concerns about funding.  I'm sure everything will be fine, can't wait to play Star Marine myself.
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: ConfusedMonkeh on November 22, 2016, 06:37:06 AM
Sorry I asked if you were buying anything in the sales, I wouldn't have brought the subject up if I'd known you have concerns about funding.  I'm sure everything will be fine, can't wait to play Star Marine myself.

I'm not concerned about funding and you have nothing to apologise for.. Why are you so excited about Star Marine? Looked pretty generic to me. Pretty cool for a space sim but bland for an FPS game. May I recommend Battlefield 1, Titanfall2 or maybe even Call of Duty: Infinite warfare instead.

Glad you're excited for it though. Good for you.
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: Dementropy on November 22, 2016, 06:37:39 AM
Don't worry. I'm certain the Evocati group will be getting their hands on 2.6 any day now, so they can work out all the bugs and save Christmas.
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: StarBallz on November 22, 2016, 06:42:29 AM
Of course this game will never be released. Just look at the loonies on their forums lying to themselves constantly that this will take time, like until 2021 or something insane like that. Nobody will want to play it by then, things will have moved forward, SC will only be remembered as that Video Games Hindenburg/Titanic. It will get that fame for sure.
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: ConfusedMonkeh on November 22, 2016, 06:42:52 AM
Don't worry. I'm certain the Evocati group will be getting their hands on 2.6 any day now, so they can work out all the bugs and save Christmas.

Not sure you should be so excited to play Star Marine. It looks like a reasonably generic FPS to me. IF you need it to save Christmas then I'd suggest reevaluating what Christmas means to you. But hey ho, not everyone likes spending time with their family I suppose. Each to their own.
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: ConfusedMonkeh on November 22, 2016, 06:43:38 AM
Of course this game will never be released. Just look at the loonies on their forums lying to themselves constantly that this will take time, like until 2021 or something insane like that. Nobody will want to play it by then, things will have moved forward, SC will only be remembered as that Video Games Hindenburg/Titanic. It will get that fame for sure.

Can I borrow your time machine please? There's a sports almanac I want to get my hands on...
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: StarBallz on November 22, 2016, 06:45:20 AM
Sorry, got the Sport Almanc already for myself...
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: ConfusedMonkeh on November 22, 2016, 06:46:16 AM
Pm me a scan of 2017 pages please. TIA.
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: AP on November 22, 2016, 06:48:21 AM
Sorry I asked if you were buying anything in the sales, I wouldn't have brought the subject up if I'd known you have concerns about funding.  I'm sure everything will be fine, can't wait to play Star Marine myself.

I'm not concerned about funding and you have nothing to apologise for.. Why are you so excited about Star Marine? Looked pretty generic to me. Pretty cool for a space sim but bland for an FPS game. May I recommend Battlefield 1, Titanfall2 or maybe even Call of Duty: Infinite warfare instead.

Glad you're excited for it though. Good for you.


You should read this, it's a great interview.


Star Marine: Bringing crowdfunding to a gun fight (http://www.redbull.com/us/en/games/stories/1331726969794/star-marine-interview-with-chris-roberts)


Quote from: Chris Roberts
“It’s not [a] Call of Duty or Battlefield imitation,” Roberts tells Red Bull, when we ask him point blank how he and his team aim to out-CoD CoD. “We’re going for a different FPS experience from the Call of Duty or Battlefield insta-respawn, rushing, quick combat, quick shooting set-up. We really want the players to be invested in their characters, so when they get into FPS combat it should be more meaningful. The idea is to be more in the direction of a game like Demon’s Souls, where your character and life mean more to you, so you don’t want to get killed.

“We want to make sure that the combat that you get in Star Citizen isn’t just a dumbed-down version of an FPS. We also want to make sure our FPS has its own personality.”
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: ConfusedMonkeh on November 22, 2016, 06:50:36 AM
Sorry I asked if you were buying anything in the sales, I wouldn't have brought the subject up if I'd known you have concerns about funding.  I'm sure everything will be fine, can't wait to play Star Marine myself.

I'm not concerned about funding and you have nothing to apologise for.. Why are you so excited about Star Marine? Looked pretty generic to me. Pretty cool for a space sim but bland for an FPS game. May I recommend Battlefield 1, Titanfall2 or maybe even Call of Duty: Infinite warfare instead.

Glad you're excited for it though. Good for you.


You should read this, it's a great interview.


Star Marine: Bringing crowdfunding to a gun fight (http://www.redbull.com/us/en/games/stories/1331726969794/star-marine-interview-with-chris-roberts)


Quote from: Chris Roberts
“It’s not [a] Call of Duty or Battlefield imitation,” Roberts tells Red Bull, when we ask him point blank how he and his team aim to out-CoD CoD. “We’re going for a different FPS experience from the Call of Duty or Battlefield insta-respawn, rushing, quick combat, quick shooting set-up. We really want the players to be invested in their characters, so when they get into FPS combat it should be more meaningful. The idea is to be more in the direction of a game like Demon’s Souls, where your character and life mean more to you, so you don’t want to get killed.

“We want to make sure that the combat that you get in Star Citizen isn’t just a dumbed-down version of an FPS. We also want to make sure our FPS has its own personality.”

So now you're confusing Star Marine's first iteration with how they want FPS to feel in the perma death PU?

Intelligence is a rare commodity around here it seems.
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: AP on November 22, 2016, 06:54:16 AM
If it helps the article is titled Star Marine and mentions Star Marine by name twenty times.


Quote
Roberts also points to Star Marine’s movement system, which will, he says, be another key difference for ‘traditional’ FPS players – and also present more of a learning curve. Roberts gives the example of player momentum. Like much of what we discuss about Star Marine, it feels like the first-person part of the game is being designed with the same, physics-first principles as Star Citizen proper.


Did you follow the right link?
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: ConfusedMonkeh on November 22, 2016, 06:56:47 AM
Read your own quote. 'Invested in your character'. Chris was talking about the PU.
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: AP on November 22, 2016, 07:05:49 AM
Read your own quote. 'Invested in your character'. Chris was talking about the PU.


This seems odd to me considering the article says "Roberts is talking about Star Marine", the 20 odd references to "Star Marine" and the lack of a single mention of PU or persistent universe.


Thank you though, I expect you must be right.
(http://i.imgur.com/8WTw2kJ.gif)
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: ConfusedMonkeh on November 22, 2016, 08:24:54 AM
Read your own quote. 'Invested in your character'. Chris was talking about the PU.


This seems odd to me considering the article says "Roberts is talking about Star Marine", the 20 odd references to "Star Marine" and the lack of a single mention of PU or persistent universe.


Thank you though, I expect you must be right.
(http://i.imgur.com/8WTw2kJ.gif)

Either way we are diverging, why are you so excited for it being released? Why can't you wait for it? It looked reasonably generic to me. What looks so exciting about it to you?
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: AP on November 22, 2016, 08:31:52 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cir3w-wIx9U (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cir3w-wIx9U)


I like the holograms the EMP grenades and the fighting in zero g looks awesome.  Also actually read the piece I linked it sounds great.
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: ConfusedMonkeh on November 22, 2016, 09:04:13 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cir3w-wIx9U (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cir3w-wIx9U)


I like the holograms the EMP grenades and the fighting in zero g looks awesome.  Also actually read the piece I linked it sounds great.

I read the article 18 months ago when it came out. Back when the illfonic work was good. You are a cheeky monkey linking the old video. That stuff will come in time and the latest demo showed people floating in zero g and firing guns, so that will be there too in some form. There's no need to attempt to hoodwink me with faux positivity. I've read enough of the SA thread to recognise your name and the MO of this group of internet denizens. I'm here to exchange views because I enjoy it. No need for the bait attempts.
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: dsmart on November 22, 2016, 09:10:25 AM
My thoughts are, you're full of poop Mr. Smart.

Monkeh, I am not going to have this same tired old argument with any of you. I am posting only to say that if you can't be civil, you will be banned, IP blocked, and all your forum posts deleted.

This is not Reddit. We're not going to up/down vote and hide dissenting opinions.

If you can't be civil, stop posting.
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: dsmart on November 22, 2016, 09:11:43 AM
It's cute you've followed Derek from SA to here by the way. Not a cult huh? Something something glass houses and stone throwing.

I don't even... ::)
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: AP on November 22, 2016, 09:15:45 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cir3w-wIx9U (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cir3w-wIx9U)


I like the holograms the EMP grenades and the fighting in zero g looks awesome.  Also actually read the piece I linked it sounds great.

I read the article 18 months ago when it came out. Back when the illfonic work was good. You are a cheeky monkey linking the old video. That stuff will come in time and the latest demo showed people floating in zero g and firing guns, so that will be there too in some form. There's no need to attempt to hoodwink me with faux positivity. I've read enough of the SA thread to recognise your name and the MO of this group of internet denizens. I'm here to exchange views because I enjoy it. No need for the bait attempts.


If you know my posts then you should believe that I'm more excited than anything to play the long awaited Star Marine.  There's no "faux positivity" involved, I want to compare the disaster that might someday be delivered to years worth of marketing promises.  So I'm very excited to see release.
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: ConfusedMonkeh on November 22, 2016, 09:21:15 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cir3w-wIx9U (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cir3w-wIx9U)


I like the holograms the EMP grenades and the fighting in zero g looks awesome.  Also actually read the piece I linked it sounds great.

I read the article 18 months ago when it came out. Back when the illfonic work was good. You are a cheeky monkey linking the old video. That stuff will come in time and the latest demo showed people floating in zero g and firing guns, so that will be there too in some form. There's no need to attempt to hoodwink me with faux positivity. I've read enough of the SA thread to recognise your name and the MO of this group of internet denizens. I'm here to exchange views because I enjoy it. No need for the bait attempts.


If you know my posts then you should believe that I'm more exciting than anything to play the long awaited Star Marine.  There's no "faux positivity" involved, I want to compare the disaster that might someday be delivered to years worth of marketing promises.  So I'm very excited to see release.

I do like a bit of honesty. Fair enough. I'm quite looking forward to seeing how it 'feels' now I've seen how it looks. It should be a bit of fun should the networking get sorted. Playing with horrid lag, no compensation and de sync will be super super fun times. You'll have all the ammunition you need, worry not.

It'll still be better than shooting guns in LOD though.
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: AP on November 22, 2016, 09:22:25 AM
I messed my last post up so edited it to correct the small text issue.
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: dsmart on November 22, 2016, 09:24:30 AM
For sometime now we've said that CIG are running out of money, due to how long it's taken them to even get out of pre-Alpha. Of course they're doing that through sales.

Back in 2015 when I said they barely had 90 days to go; something that other insider sources told the media, Shitizens were up in arms. And to this day - despite the fact that when we all made that analysis, it was based on info (just like analysts) we had on hand - they keep harping on "oh you said they would collapse in 90 days" nonsense. This despite the fact that they were the ones funding it and keeping it afloat, even as CIG pulls every trick in the book to continue milking whales.

And the recent cash sales, coupled with bullshit tech demos, has continued the trend.

So it should come as no surprise that Lesnick made this comment on Twitter (https://twitter.com/thedamnshames/status/800788699411714048/photo/1) yesterday that they "have to" do sales, and not because they "want to".

(http://imgur.com/9rQii16.jpg)
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: AP on November 22, 2016, 09:27:53 AM
It'll still be better than shooting guns in LOD though.


Also don't do this, it always been a really stupid thing to say.  "Well Derek's game is X therefore his opinion on Star Citizen is invalid".  I mean keep doing it if you want as I'll laugh at you but it's really incredibly dumb.
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: ConfusedMonkeh on November 22, 2016, 09:28:50 AM
It's cute you've followed Derek from SA to here by the way. Not a cult huh? Something something glass houses and stone throwing.

I don't even... ::)
Oh come on, you're even giving them their little 'smarties' badges so they can all be part of the gang/cult!

LMAO.
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: ConfusedMonkeh on November 22, 2016, 09:30:17 AM
It'll still be better than shooting guns in LOD though.


Also don't do this, it always been a really stupid thing to say.  "Well Derek's game is X therefore his opinion on Star Citizen is invalid".  I mean keep doing it if you want as I'll laugh at you but it's really incredibly dumb.

Fair point. I just saw he quoted me and wanted to lash out. I'm really angry you see. Almost PGabz levels of angry!
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: jcrg99 on November 22, 2016, 09:30:36 AM
It does not seem to me that it will colapse. Notice the big changes that were made along 2015/2016 specially, with features removed, not delivered, and expectations now set very low in terms of universe size and feature set by the end of 2017/18.
Even with all that, just a little number of whales are enough to sustain the show of smoke and mirrors going on. The Amway scheme.
I mean.
The game and project itself, obviously is done, it cant be done as pitched, it cant live to his hype and noise created along all these years and the constraints that they created to themselves (high fidelity in tiny little things sacrificing the timing to deliver meaningfull and working stuff) wont ever end and only will become worst.
Its going to stay as a shadow of some corner of the industry that nobody, but 2000 whales care and sustain it under the payment of thousands of dollars for individual in game items that should have the value of 1 dollar to be still considered expensive.
But I dont believe on them colapsing. Just making changes that will be always accepted by these people that lost totally any sense of value related to games. People that will become more and more defensive and hostile, while singing to each other that they are the great community, special snowflakes, heroes, saviors of the game industry, of the genre, etc etc.
All power to them and their money, but the reality is that Star Citizen is already a fail.
If it wasnt a fail, it wouldnt need this kind of monetization scheme to survive. Period.
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: AP on November 22, 2016, 09:32:47 AM
It's cute you've followed Derek from SA to here by the way. Not a cult huh? Something something glass houses and stone throwing.

I don't even... : :)
Oh come on, you're even giving them their little 'smarties' badges so they can all be part of the gang/cult!

LMAO.


 :boom:
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: ConfusedMonkeh on November 22, 2016, 09:39:16 AM
It does not seem to me that it will colapse. Notice the big changes that were made along 2015/2016 specially, with features removed, not delivered, and expectations now set very low in terms of universe size and feature set by the end of 2017/18.
Even with all that, just a little number of whales are enough to sustain the show of smoke and mirrors going on. The Amway scheme.
I mean.
The game and project itself, obviously is done, it cant be done as pitched, it cant live to his hype and noise created along all these years and the constraints that they created to themselves (high fidelity in tiny little things sacrificing the timing to deliver meaningfull and working stuff) wont ever end and only will become worst.
Its going to stay as a shadow of some corner of the industry that nobody, but 2000 whales care and sustain it under the payment of thousands of dollars for individual in game items that should have the value of 1 dollar to be still considered expensive.
But I dont believe on them colapsing. Just making changes that will be always accepted by these people that lost totally any sense of value related to games. People that will become more and more defensive and hostile, while singing to each other that they are the great community, special snowflakes, heroes, saviors of the game industry, of the genre, etc etc.
All power to them and their money, but the reality is that Star Citizen is already a fail.
If it wasnt a fail, it wouldnt need this kind of monetization scheme to survive. Period.

I think that's a little short sighted. Any bank in the world would be falling over themselves to provide a loan to a 4 year old start up company with 133 million dollars in pre sales, should it be needed. There are plenty of people playing the alpha whenever I log on and there is still plenty of people wanting to play. Only time will tell of course, but your certainty is misplaced. Nobody knows what the future will bring.

Squadron 42 will bring in some money. No doubts. How much is anyone's guess. Could be a million. Could be 100 million. We don't know. None of us do.

Let's assume that Tony Z used to be a hedge fund manager and has a clue how to invest copious amounts of cash reasonably efficiently. Now let's assume overheads in years one and two were significantly less than today. Now let's assume they've taken around 30 million a year for 4 years running. Is money running out? I highly doubt it. Derek says it is but is yet to provide any proof whatsoever. He's guessed at 90 days tops well over a year ago and would be amazed if they saw out 2016. Here we are.

It's going to be fun watching what happens whatever side of the fence you're sitting on. Can't wait.
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: dsmart on November 22, 2016, 10:19:31 AM
Derek says it is but is yet to provide any proof whatsoever. He's guessed at 90 days tops well over a year ago and would be amazed if they saw out 2016. Here we are.

Are you still going about this? Seriously?  :magical:
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: Kyrt on November 22, 2016, 10:26:13 AM
I think that's a little short sighted. Any bank in the world would be falling over themselves to provide a loan to a 4 year old start up company with 133 million dollars in pre sales, should it be needed. There are plenty of people playing the alpha whenever I log on and there is still plenty of people wanting to play. Only time will tell of course, but your certainty is misplaced. Nobody knows what the future will bring.

Squadron 42 will bring in some money. No doubts. How much is anyone's guess. Could be a million. Could be 100 million. We don't know. None of us do.

Let's assume that Tony Z used to be a hedge fund manager and has a clue how to invest copious amounts of cash reasonably efficiently. Now let's assume overheads in years one and two were significantly less than today. Now let's assume they've taken around 30 million a year for 4 years running. Is money running out? I highly doubt it. Derek says it is but is yet to provide any proof whatsoever. He's guessed at 90 days tops well over a year ago and would be amazed if they saw out 2016. Here we are.

It's going to be fun watching what happens whatever side of the fence you're sitting on. Can't wait.

Are CIG running out of money?

Always an interesting question.

Currently they have about 400 developers and programmers. At an average wage of $40k a year, that's $16 million right there. Add in a ballpark 25% just to allow them to work - running costs, support staff, etc - and you are looking at a rough estimate of $20 million a year.

Those figure are also likely conservative and on the low side. Devs likely get more than $40K a year. It wouldn't be surprising to learn that CIG are burning $25-$35 million a year. Paid the reported US average you'd be looking at yearly costs of $36 million...but it is difficult because it has teams in the UK and Germany and Austin and so on.

And so far, it is earning an average of £33 million a year from sales and crowdfunding. And costs in the beginning were lower as well...there were fewer developers.  So even if CIG were losing money, they would still have a healthy buffer.

But there have been other costs. Linguists. Movie stars. Scriptwriters. Motion Capture. Third party deals that have had to be scrapped. Legal fees.

And in the future? There is marketing. CIG will need to spend huge amounts of money to effectively market the game. Trouble is - a lot of players have already "bought" it. But without new players, there is a potential revenue problem. They say they won't sell ships, and servers and development will cost money. But maybe CIG will be happy with the existing base.

However...as things are, it is not unreasonable to suppose the CIG might indeed be running out of money, especially with the latest letter from
Roberts. It's a nice begging letter...but still a begging letter.

Overall? CIG probably has enough money on hand to finish the game. They are probably going to bring in enough from ship sales for a while to slow down any leaks but there is a fair possibility that they are spending money as fast as they can make it.

However, without more data, we can't know for sure.



Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: jcrg99 on November 22, 2016, 10:51:25 AM
I think that's a little short sighted. Any bank in the world would be falling over themselves to provide a loan to a 4 year old start up company with 133 million dollars in pre sales, should it be needed.
133 million dollars in pre-sales with hard possibility of too much sales if any, after "release" and higher possibility of lawsuits instead, considering what we already know about what is coming and coming only 4 years delayed. Tell me what is these banks that you are talking about, because they are extremely fools on how they provide loans.

Quote from: ConfusedMonkeh

There are plenty of people playing the alpha whenever I log on
Hmmm... Plenty. I wonder what do you mean by that and how meaningful is to make a proper analysis of grow or fall.

Quote from: ConfusedMonkeh

and there is still plenty of people wanting to play.
Who the hell wouldn't want to play the game that you can basically do everything ever dreamed. The impossible design in high fidelity. Who the hell wouldn't? Willing to play something does not mean actual sales. Specially considering what Star Citizen promised to be. The problem is. They won't be. It's already know that they won't be. In any time soon. They already failed to met the expectations that THEY created. And that has consequences.

Quote from: ConfusedMonkeh

Only time will tell of course, but your certainty is misplaced. Nobody knows what the future will bring.
Only a fool investor would look to this and claim that "time will tell" when you already know the history of the company. What you expect is a turn in the tide that never happened, just as never happened a 90-day full colapse. What this team already shown is that they don't have the capacity to deliver what was promised in any time soon. It's a fact. It's already announced. Or are you telling me that by 2012, after the end of 6 million dollars crowdfunded game, people would be expecting just ONE system with barebones features by the end of 2017/18? No. They were expecting a Loooooot more and for 2014. And by 2017/18, is that what they will get. For some reason, you think that people, press, will ignore all that, and magically, things will work smoothly. Its possible? Of course it is. Miracles happen. But its very naive to think in miracles when you look to the realities of this industry and matches with what already happened with this project/development.


Quote from: ConfusedMonkeh

Squadron 42 will bring in some money. No doubts. How much is anyone's guess. Could be a million. Could be 100 million. We don't know. None of us do.
It does not matter. Star Citizen is mediocre and will continue to be. It's awesome just in the mind of a few whales that sustain it and will continue to sustain it forever. There is no turn in the tide coming. It's a flop. I don't believe in colapse. No question that it was a profitable venture for Roberts and co. But the flop is already set and only fools still need the "wait and see". For these I just say then: "Watch and learn".
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: ConfusedMonkeh on November 22, 2016, 11:28:07 AM
Derek says it is but is yet to provide any proof whatsoever. He's guessed at 90 days tops well over a year ago and would be amazed if they saw out 2016. Here we are.

Are you still going about this? Seriously?  :magical:

I think it's relevant to look at a person's previous predictions when they make similar predictions later on, so yes. You stated that numerous times in various tweets and other places. It was proved incorrect. Why should anyone believe your latest predictions along the same vein? You've heard of the boy who cried wolf I take it?

@Jcrg99: You offer a lot of opinion. Yes there are lots of people playing the alpha, this is a fact. It may be buggy and broken but people playing it see the potential. Which is huge. If there are only 2,000 whales propping the company up are you suggesting the over 2.5 million in 4 days is solely from them? Seriously? That's ridiculous. Your confirmation bias is showing here I'm afraid. You've lost any and all objective viewpoint you may have once had. The game is coming and there will be many people playing it. It's coming slower than we all wanted, never going to argue with that, but check the funding chart and citizen numbers and tell me again there's no one interested. With a straight face.

@Kyrt: Of course it's all guess work. We can't know. Neither can Derek. Funding isn't slowing down significantly. I believe 10 million over this last few weeks of the year and it's the best year ever in fact. Staff numbers keep on increasing and development keeps on happening. If money was running out I'm reasonably sure we'd be seeing staff cut backs. Unless the upper management of CIG are completely idiotic. Which I admit, is a possibility. There's also a possibility the sun won't rise tomorrow morning.

I refuse opinions on the game not being wanted or not being good because it's evident that people are still throwing money at them and playing the broken, buggy, half a single system alpha. If that doesn't tell you something then nothing will. Whenever I log in there are plenty of folk running and flying around. Chat is busy. Griefers are griefing. It's cool and fun even though there's barely anything to do and it's a tiny fraction of whats to come.

Of course whatever they release there will be this enclave and others calling it poop and refusing to admit any technical achievement or giving a single hint of praise but that's OK.  Others will be enjoying a game that might just be something very special indeed. Que sera sera.
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: dsmart on November 22, 2016, 11:37:51 AM
However...as things are, it is not unreasonable to suppose the CIG might indeed be running out of money, especially with the latest letter from
Roberts. It's a nice begging letter...but still a begging letter.

Overall? CIG probably has enough money on hand to finish the game. They are probably going to bring in enough from ship sales for a while to slow down any leaks but there is a fair possibility that they are spending money as fast as they can make it.

However, without more data, we can't know for sure.

Anyone who doesn't think they need money, is just being an idiot.

Chris, who has been lying since day one, went on the record and stated:

Quote
Long ago I stopped looking at this game the way I did when I worked for a publisher who gave me a fixed budget to make a retail game. I now look at our monthly fundraising and use that to set the amount of resources being used to develop this game. We keep a healthy cash reserve so that if funding stopped tomorrow we would still be able to deliver Star Citizen (not quite to the current level of ambition, but well above what was planned in Oct 2012). If you combine our in-house staff and outsourced developers, we now number more than 280 people. Your support has created a significant number of jobs in the gaming industry. (And no matter what you might have heard, only a small number of our team is tasked with designing new ships!)” - Chris Roberts, Letter From The Chairman (https://robertsspaceindustries.com/comm-link/transmission/14184-Letter-From-The-Chairman), Sept 2014

That was when the game(s) were coming out in Nov 2014. Then it wasn't.

Then it was Q4/2015. Then it wasn't.

Then it was Q4/2016. Then it wasn't.

Since 2012, the studio has grown exponentially; which of course adds to the costs and expenses of running 4 worldwide studios. Not to even mention the taxes.

In Q4/16, for the first time ever, they started a new "cash" based sales strategy in order to bring in new money. Note that they created this problem with a system that they put in place and which allowed backers to melt ships to credit, then buy other ships. Any business minded person will know that they won't have done that had they foreseen the game taking longer, and thus costing more. Which of course means whale milking.

And to top if all off, again in Q4/16 - the year they were to deliver both games - they spent time, resources and money on tech demos at both GamesCom and CitizenCon in order to scam whales with stuff they know aren't even likely to be in the game. And of course 3.0, the "Jesus Patch" was coming by end of the year as well.

During last week's anniversary stream, the newsletter (http://us5.campaign-archive2.com/?u=32d8ef31243db6075c45571bd&id=b0a27d5ee1&e=5399d9e5d9) (also an RSI web post (https://robertsspaceindustries.com/comm-link/transmission/15603-Letter-From-The-Chairman)) all amounted to "WE NEED MOAH MONIES!"

I would love to see a solid argument that points to all of this being business as usual, and that all of these actions don't point to a project desperately in need of on-going funding.
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: Kyrt on November 22, 2016, 11:53:02 AM
Anyone who doesn't think they need money, is just being an idiot.

When I say I think they have enough money to finish the game, I'm thinking more of the promised Minimum Viable Product that CIG were talking about going for.

Such a product could be achieved fairly quickly by stripping out many of the features, putting in place only basic mechanics and cutting back on the depth available in most systems.

So - CIG probably has enough money and a big enough to put something out.

Looking from the outside, it is difficult to suggest anything else. We don't know how much CIG are paying their developers. Are they paid the average wage? Higher? Lower? Do US devs get paid more than UK ones?

We CAN see that CIG get about $2-3 million a month in funding...and likely spend between $1.5 million and $3.5 million on wages and running costs alone. We can surmise they built up a buffer in previous years which can support them but we also know that without  a publisher they will have to bear the marketing costs themselves, unless they want to go with just the existing backers and no large numbers of newbloods

You work in the industry so you likely have a better idea of the true costs than many here.

And yes - as I said, Roberts letter struck me as very much a begging letter and one that did strike me as implying you were correct, at least to some degree.

Personally - I think they do have a buffer, but that their costs are only slightly below their income via ship sales. I would surmise the price they charge for ships depends at least in part on their actual need for money - so if they do need more, the ship packages will cost more. I don't think they are in danger of running out...but I do think that their finances probably aren't as comfortable as they would wish.
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: dsmart on November 22, 2016, 12:06:24 PM
Those are all valid points.

However, the problem they have now is that even with an MVP, which Chris had already hinted at (heck even his 4.0 by end of 2017 isn't even an MVP!), they still won't be able to deliver that by end of 2017. Which means they will still need on-going funding to even deliver that. Not to mention that he's bet a lot on SQ42. I don't know if anyone thinks that SQ42 has any chance of making an impact, when in fact most backers already entitled to it. Not to mention the fact that all the money they are making from concept ships, are for the PU, not SQ42.

In my anniversary stream write-up (http://www.dereksmart.org/forums/topic/star-citizen-musings/#post-4879), I talked about the schedule (excerpt below) itself which clearly is just more pandering to whales in order to instill confidence and get funding.

ps: I wasn't calling you an idiot btw. I was making a general statement.



PROJECT SCHEDULE

In what can only be described as utterly hilarious is that they also – for the first time ever – released something of a dev schedule (https://robertsspaceindustries.com/schedule-report) for the project.

For the near term builds, they show 6 weeks past, but only 3 weeks future planning. And given all the statements they were making about Star Marine, Squadron42 etc following CitizenCon, and how they were “coming soon”, if you look at the schedule, you will see that Star Marine is targeted for release in less than two weeks; though what was shown at this stream clearly indicates otherwise. More on that later.

And even the 2.6 patch (containing Star Marine) which they played on the stream, was shown as being released to Evocati on the day (11/18) of the stream. Considering that the patch schedule is dev -> internal testing -> external (Evocati) testing -> live, how does anyone see this patch being ready for live in the short term?

And the timeline for the 3.0 patch (which sources had told me simply doesn’t exist (http://www.dereksmart.org/forums/topic/sc-scoop/#post-4493)) which Chris had gone on two recent events and said was coming by end of the year; even though he knew the statement to be patently false, is clearly nowhere in the near term schedule. In fact, it doesn’t even have a schedule. Just a listing similar to the Powerpoint slides that he has used at the two previous events. The Squadron 42 game which was coming in 2015, then 2016, and pushed into 2017, doesn’t appear in the schedule either.
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: jcrg99 on November 22, 2016, 12:11:41 PM
Quote from: ConfusedMonkeh
I think it's relevant to look at a person's previous predictions when they make similar predictions later on
Fair enough. Now point this same thought to Chris Roberts ;)
Hah! That pretty much contradicted all your hopes, certainties and optimistic views about this project. Roberts failed in ALL his predictions about the plans that he made for Star Citizen. ALL! Derek Smart failed just in a couple of his owns. In any case, How can you have so optimistic view considering that the CEO of the company failed in ALL his plans presented to the public? How that can't be relevant and its relevant only in one specific case of the Smart's history when analysing this project?

Quote from: ConfusedMonkeh
@Jcrg99: You offer a lot of opinion. Yes there are lots of people playing the alpha, this is a fact.
Actuallly the only "Fact" related to that is something that a dev shared while ago in a "refund" letter, as far as I remember. And that was very mediocre number. So, you are simply inverting the reality here. You are the one stating opinions without basis.

Quote from: ConfusedMonkeh
It may be buggy and broken but people playing it see the potential.
That is another opinion without basis. People could be playing it and seeing that it can't be finished as promised too in any acceptable/working time frame (considering the reality of the market). Yes. That was an opinion of my side. But you tried to sound that yorus is a fact. It's not. Unless you have some data/info that we don't.

Quote from: ConfusedMonkeh
If there are only 2,000 whales propping the company up are you suggesting the over 2.5 million in 4 days is solely from them? Seriously? That's ridiculous.
Why? That is pretty much the average of the followers of SC if you look to any other stats that they shown in the past/present. Their ships are sold by very high prices and in general they don't need to sell too much to make 2.5 million in 4 days.

Quote from: ConfusedMonkeh
Your confirmation bias is showing here I'm afraid. You've lost any and all objective viewpoint you may have once had.
Actually, it's you that is showing that here and lost objectivity, which I am afraid, you never had.

Quote from: ConfusedMonkeh
The game is coming and there will be many people playing it.
Talking about losing objectivity and giving baseless opinions.

Quote from: ConfusedMonkeh
It's coming slower than we all wanted, never going to argue with that, but check the funding chart and citizen numbers and tell me again there's no one interested. With a straight face.
As far as I know, their counter is not audited. Is it? And I also know that they tried to use that for years, pretending that it was a number of backers when it wasn't. So, yeah... when you see a pattern of smoke and mirrors, deception, you can expect that their counter is far to be accurate too. The fact that you are basing all your thoughts in that counter, already demonstrated as inaccurate many times, and used as a false advertising tool by members of RSI and its fans, shown how zero objectivity you have and/or how naive you are. But I guess it has nothing to do with naivety and more with 'propaganda monkeys'.
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: T.Bibliophile on November 22, 2016, 12:50:51 PM
I sincerely hope Chris will update his community on the development road maps and timelines, and that they won't just be the same plus 2 months every update
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: AP on November 22, 2016, 01:21:57 PM
I think it's relevant to look at a person's previous predictions when they make similar predictions later on, so yes.


So do I, however I take a prediction as a prediction, a judgement call based on information available at the time.  It could be wrong, it could be right, it could be half right.


I'm interested if you treat peoples statements of fact in the same way, such as will Star Citizen be Pay 2 Win?  Because the way I see it, Derek Smart gets hilarious comments for making one prediction, while not working for the CIG, that turned out incorrect.  While Chris Roberts makes dozens of statements about things that turn out to be not to be true at all, and some would rather focus on "CIG hasn't gone bust yet!"


"yet" is such a small but important word, if CIG fails to put out an amazing game, who do you think History is going to judge more harshly, the guy that got the date wrong for free or the guy that wasted 150 million of other people's money?
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: ConfusedMonkeh on November 22, 2016, 04:25:11 PM
Quote from: ConfusedMonkeh
I think it's relevant to look at a person's previous predictions when they make similar predictions later on
Fair enough. Now point this same thought to Chris Roberts ;)
...
Roberts failed in ALL his predictions about the plans that he made for Star Citizen. ALL! Derek Smart failed just in a couple of his owns.

The difference is visible if you break it down. Chris says, '[We hope to give you, AC module/Planetside/Star Marine/2.0/2.5], [on this possible date/time frame]. First part happens. Second part is less predictable, but has happened eventually. Not exactly a fail.

Derek says, [Money runs out/Mass walk out/Law suits/Can't be done/Smoke and mirrors], [90 days tops/End of Year/Last CitizenCon]. None of which has happened. First part, (content), or second part, (time frame).

Quote from: jcrg99
Quote from: ConfusedMonkeh
@Jcrg99: You offer a lot of opinion. Yes there are lots of people playing the alpha, this is a fact.
Actuallly the only "Fact" related to that is something that a dev shared while ago in a "refund" letter, as far as I remember. And that was very mediocre number. So, you are simply inverting the reality here. You are the one stating opinions without basis.

I'll say it again. Every time I log in to Crusader, there are people playing the game. Chat is busy, people are having fun. Fact. People are playing the game.

Quote from: jcrg99
Quote from: ConfusedMonkeh
It may be buggy and broken but people playing it see the potential.
That is another opinion without basis. People could be playing it and seeing that it can't be finished as promised too in any acceptable/working time frame (considering the reality of the market). Yes. That was an opinion of my side. But you tried to sound that yorus is a fact. It's not. Unless you have some data/info that we don't.

See above. Chat is busy. People are excited. The forums are busy. People are excited. Trying to deny the potential of what is on offer is silly. How well they pull it off is a completely different conversation of course but come on, denying it's potential is ridiculous. Overwhelming confirmation bias again I'm afraid. I don't like it, so how can any one else!?

The time frame could be a potential problem but Squadron will be here fast enough, how good it is could decide the future of SC I suppose. With the number of rabid fans out there I get the feeling it won't need to be spectacular to be good enough to drive the project to completion. Time will tell.

Quote from: jcrg99
Their ships are sold by very high prices and in general they don't need to sell too much to make 2.5 million in 4 days.

Meh. Funding is funding.

Quote from: jcrg99
Actually, it's you that is showing that here and lost objectivity

Suppose we can agree to disagree.

Quote from: jcrg99
Quote from: ConfusedMonkeh
The game is coming and there will be many people playing it.
Talking about losing objectivity and giving baseless opinions.

Please. Suggesting some kind of game won't come out now is pushing it. How good it will be is only relevant to semi long term survival. There are a lot of people with accounts that WILL play whatever game comes out.

After that, who knows. I think it might be quite good and lots will play. You may feel different. As I said, only time will tell, but there will be a game at some point. Starting with Squadron, which will generate a level of funding and interest, then onto the main event. Whatever that may end up consisting of.

Quote from: jcrg99
As far as I know, their counter is not audited. Is it? And I also know that they tried to use that for years, pretending that it was a number of backers when it wasn't. So, yeah...

What we know:

'Citizens' is forum accounts.

Probable:

'UEE Fleet' number of accounts with ships attached?

Hardly a conspiracy.


The counter has to be considered accurate. Where else has the money to fund 4 studios and 377 staff come from? I admit it's accuracy, in terms of total funds available, can be questioned. Refunds don't make it fall. (A few grand refund would show up as a negative amount in the vast majority of 'hour' stats on the bar graph, which hasn't happened), but neither does it account for sponsorship deals with AMD and now NVIDIA or tax breaks or grants or interest on tens of millions in the bank early on or private investors or bank loans or anything else, other than the amount pledged.

The amount pledged isn't the only positive entry on the companies balance sheet. So if we're being VERY generous, few hundred grand in refunds? Meh.

Quote from: jcrg99
how zero objectivity you have and/or how naive you are. But I guess it has nothing to do with naivety and more with 'propaganda monkeys'.

Yes. Because I don't share your opinions, I am naive or brainwashed.

You are most correct my Senpai.


I think it's relevant to look at a person's previous predictions when they make similar predictions later on, so yes.


So do I, however I take a prediction as a prediction, a judgement call based on information available at the time.  It could be wrong, it could be right, it could be half right.


I'm interested if you treat peoples statements of fact in the same way, such as will Star Citizen be Pay 2 Win?  Because the way I see it, Derek Smart gets hilarious comments for making one prediction, while not working for the CIG, that turned out incorrect.  While Chris Roberts makes dozens of statements about things that turn out to be not to be true at all, and some would rather focus on "CIG hasn't gone bust yet!"


"yet" is such a small but important word, if CIG fails to put out an amazing game, who do you think History is going to judge more harshly, the guy that got the date wrong for free or the guy that wasted 150 million of other people's money?

The game won't need to be amazing to succeed. Pay to win is an interesting conversation. I think you have to remember that they have some of the very best game designers working on this game. All the names that the nerds respect for being awesome. Pappy, Zurovec, Roberts Bros etc. It doesn't seem hard to envisage a game where the average Idris owner wouldn't be giving two hoots what the Aurora starter pilot is doing. In any way shape or form. As long as the lone Aurora guy can work his way upwards in vaguely fun ways, it's not pay to win in any game breaking way.

Sorry, but yet again, time will tell. Will some of the best game developers around manage to work out fun stuff for huge ship owners and little ship owners to play and progress? Well I can think of plenty of ways and I'm an idiot. Massive org owner is helping out the UEE or any other faction against any other larger faction, NPC, alien or otherwise. Aurora guy is doing a 'Homestead' type mission. Never shall they cross paths.

It really doesn't seem that hard to me.

How will they be judged? Hey guess what? Time will tell. If it succeeds, some will hail Chris as a visionary genius who made his, and 2.x million other people's, dreams come true. Some will deride his efforts as wasteful, narcissistic and nowhere near good enough.

If it fails, some will hail Chris as the visionary genius who nearly made his, and 2.x million other people's, dream come true. Some will suggest he's worse than Hitler.
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: Scruffpuff on November 22, 2016, 05:03:58 PM
If it fails, some will hail Chris as the visionary genius who nearly made his, and 2.x million other people's, dream come true. Some will suggest he's worse than Hitler.

Chris is not a visionary by any stretch of the imagination.  The idea for Star Citizen is ubiquitous - he's just stupid and narcissistic enough to think his hack inept ass can pull it off.

Chris is hardly Hitler either - he simply a piece of shit and the one obstacle standing between all of us and the game he promised.  That includes you and every other backer keeping the faith.  At some point you're going to have to divorce your worship of this unworthy man from your desire to see the game made, and realize you can't have both.

Remove Roberts from the project and something will get done.  Which comes back to something I've been saying for a while - I don't think people really want this game to be made.  On some level they have to know Chris's historically epic incompetence is killing it.  Yet they keep piling the worship on him, rather than the game itself.  That's a cult of personality, not a gaming community.

I'm blown away, absolutely blown away, that the backers haven't mobilized en masse and demanded CIG to remove Chris from the project or no more donations.  Except that would result in a game being made, which clearly isn't what they want.  Chris worship apparently comes first - a game is just a possible side-effect.

You're keeping the faith, beyond a point that I think is reasonable given the preponderance of evidence, but you're not doing so rudely so that's 100% fine by me.  But since you're not a feral backer like so many are, you can't tell me some of this doesn't ring even a little bit true.
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: dsmart on November 22, 2016, 05:10:37 PM
The flipside of that is even though he has claimed to have money to finish the project if funding stopped - which is now proven to be false - the backers won't stage an uprising because they know that he needs the money, and by not giving him money, they won't get any game. Catch-22.

They're not going to get a game, regardless. So this is all pointless discussion anyway.
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: TheShallowGrave on November 22, 2016, 05:14:48 PM
Intelligence is a rare commodity around here it seems.

 :ironicat:
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: Scruffpuff on November 22, 2016, 05:40:58 PM
The flipside of that is even though he has claimed to have money to finish the project if funding stopped - which is now proven to be false - the backers won't stage an uprising because they know that he needs the money, and by not giving him money, they won't get any game. Catch-22.

They're not going to get a game, regardless. So this is all pointless discussion anyway.

Well how many times have the backers said "It's Chris's vision that made this possible.  Without Chris there is no game."

That is 100% false.  In fact it's the exact opposite of the truth.  It's the backers' vision that made this possible.  With Chris in charge, there is no game.  They need to ditch the hero worship, shore up some self-respect, realize he's burning their cash, demand accountability and make their money work for them - not for him.
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: ConfusedMonkeh on November 22, 2016, 05:58:07 PM
If it fails, some will hail Chris as the visionary genius who nearly made his, and 2.x million other people's, dream come true. Some will suggest he's worse than Hitler.

Chris is not a visionary by any stretch of the imagination.  The idea for Star Citizen is ubiquitous - he's just stupid and narcissistic enough to think his hack inept ass can pull it off.

Chris is hardly Hitler either - he simply a piece of shit and the one obstacle standing between all of us and the game he promised.  That includes you and every other backer keeping the faith.  At some point you're going to have to divorce your worship of this unworthy man from your desire to see the game made, and realize you can't have both.

Remove Roberts from the project and something will get done.  Which comes back to something I've been saying for a while - I don't think people really want this game to be made.  On some level they have to know Chris's historically epic incompetence is killing it.  Yet they keep piling the worship on him, rather than the game itself.  That's a cult of personality, not a gaming community.

I'm blown away, absolutely blown away, that the backers haven't mobilized en masse and demanded CIG to remove Chris from the project or no more donations.  Except that would result in a game being made, which clearly isn't what they want.  Chris worship apparently comes first - a game is just a possible side-effect.

You're keeping the faith, beyond a point that I think is reasonable given the preponderance of evidence, but you're not doing so rudely so that's 100% fine by me.  But since you're not a feral backer like so many are, you can't tell me some of this doesn't ring even a little bit true.

I never said he was a visionary or Hitler. I said some will say it. Calling him a piece of shit seems harsh. Removing him is not exactly an option I wouldn't think. He owns 95% of the shares I believe. (Tax returns).

Chris, and his company, have done what other 'tier 1' devs said was impossible already. (Archived fact). I'm willing to wait and see what else they can do.

I'm glad you've noticed my non rabidosity, appreciate that, but I don't believe the $20K coffee machine, (probably rented for the cost of the coffee they use), or $20K space door, (?!come on?!), or making some workers pissed off or over estimating abilities some what makes him a 'piece of shit'. How many people you know, don't like their boss? Such a big deal.

I don't see how he's 'killing it' either. He's making the game. He's getting it done. Could quote myself here but have a look at my last post again. He's got the content out. Delayed. But done.

'Cant be done', 'Smoke and mirrors', 'Cancelled', nope, nope and nope. Just delayed. Not the worst thing ever.

Broken record time. Time will tell. Not your fortune telling. Not mine. Not anyone's. Just time.
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: dsmart on November 22, 2016, 06:03:53 PM
Chris, and his company, have done what other 'tier 1' devs said was impossible already. (Archived fact).

Such as?
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: ConfusedMonkeh on November 22, 2016, 06:06:04 PM
Chris, and his company, have done what other 'tier 1' devs said was impossible already. (Archived fact).

Such as?

Build a 64 bit floating point precision map in CryEngine, millions of kilometres wide.
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: nawledgelambo on November 22, 2016, 06:16:43 PM
If it fails, some will hail Chris as the visionary genius who nearly made his, and 2.x million other people's, dream come true. Some will suggest he's worse than Hitler.

Chris is not a visionary by any stretch of the imagination.  The idea for Star Citizen is ubiquitous - he's just stupid and narcissistic enough to think his hack inept ass can pull it off.

Chris is hardly Hitler either - he simply a piece of shit and the one obstacle standing between all of us and the game he promised.  That includes you and every other backer keeping the faith.  At some point you're going to have to divorce your worship of this unworthy man from your desire to see the game made, and realize you can't have both.

Remove Roberts from the project and something will get done.  Which comes back to something I've been saying for a while - I don't think people really want this game to be made.  On some level they have to know Chris's historically epic incompetence is killing it.  Yet they keep piling the worship on him, rather than the game itself.  That's a cult of personality, not a gaming community.

I'm blown away, absolutely blown away, that the backers haven't mobilized en masse and demanded CIG to remove Chris from the project or no more donations.  Except that would result in a game being made, which clearly isn't what they want.  Chris worship apparently comes first - a game is just a possible side-effect.

You're keeping the faith, beyond a point that I think is reasonable given the preponderance of evidence, but you're not doing so rudely so that's 100% fine by me.  But since you're not a feral backer like so many are, you can't tell me some of this doesn't ring even a little bit true.

I never said he was a visionary or Hitler. I said some will say it. Calling him a piece of shit seems harsh. Removing him is not exactly an option I wouldn't think. He owns 95% of the shares I believe. (Tax returns).



No sorry, taking money from people expecting an actual product (or those who just give him it because they "BELIEVE IN THE VISION" or whatever fucking stupid philosophical nonsense they're using now) completely justifies being called a piece of shit. Especially with how shady this business is being ran, and the garbage human beings he employs.
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: Scruffpuff on November 22, 2016, 06:20:15 PM
Build a 64 bit floating point precision map in CryEngine, millions of kilometres wide.

Keep a close eye on this project over the next year.  As long as your happiness is not riding on the success of this project, and you're able to enjoy a spectacle that might not be positive, I think you'll be rather amused by the ramifications of the aforementioned achievement as they become manifest.

And I stand by my assessment of Mr. Roberts, and it has nothing to do with his capacity as a boss.  The man is a lying, conniving scam artist, and that's far from limited to Star Citizen.  In fact I'd say that, at least in the beginning, this is probably the most honest project he's ever been involved in.  Again - at first.  It didn't take long for the old habits to reassert themselves.  He's screwing you and everyone else, and if he didn't set out to at first, he's complicit now.

I want to briefly touch on something else:  I've noticed this kind of thing before with people - you're not unique in this regard so this isn't aimed at you at all - in that they take something where you can make predictions based on all available evidence, and set a probability.  If the probability is one people don't like, they tend to stave off the implications with "only time will tell."  I think, in 2016 especially, it's been proven that all the predictions of all the experts can be catastrophically wrong.  However, just saying "only time will tell" does not automatically tip the scales of probability, or erase all of the arguments for and against the likelihood of this project's success.  It's still important to have a critical eye, stand back, remove any and all hopeful feelings you have, and say "due to the information available, Star Citizen is not likely to live up to its promises."

Might it release in some diminished form?  Sure.  And I'm guilty of a personal animus against Chris.  But I can mentally erase him from my assessment and independently reach the conclusion that SC needs to make some hardcore, almost miraculous changes to see any of its potential to completion.  Even with him out of the picture - they can't even get the PU in a semi-stable state and they're already piling on new things without any idea how any of it will plug together - just get it out, get screenshots, and sell sell sell.

There's a misconception that people highly critical of the game want it to fail.  To them I'd say, have you ever seen people at a football game when their team fucks up?  When their favorite quarterback drops the ball?  They're fucking insane - you literally hear death threats descending from the bleachers.  And that's towards their team.  Nobody wants this to fail.  I'm pissed because it most likely will, and it didn't have to.
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: AP on November 22, 2016, 06:21:57 PM
The game won't need to be amazing to succeed. Pay to win is an interesting conversation. I think you have to remember that they have some of the very best game designers working on this game. All the names that the nerds respect for being awesome. Pappy, Zurovec, Roberts Bros etc. It doesn't seem hard to envisage a game where the average Idris owner wouldn't be giving two hoots what the Aurora starter pilot is doing. In any way shape or form. As long as the lone Aurora guy can work his way upwards in vaguely fun ways, it's not pay to win in any game breaking way.

Sorry, but yet again, time will tell. Will some of the best game developers around manage to work out fun stuff for huge ship owners and little ship owners to play and progress? Well I can think of plenty of ways and I'm an idiot. Massive org owner is helping out the UEE or any other faction against any other larger faction, NPC, alien or otherwise. Aurora guy is doing a 'Homestead' type mission. Never shall they cross paths.

It really doesn't seem that hard to me.

How will they be judged? Hey guess what? Time will tell. If it succeeds, some will hail Chris as a visionary genius who made his, and 2.x million other people's, dreams come true. Some will deride his efforts as wasteful, narcissistic and nowhere near good enough.

If it fails, some will hail Chris as the visionary genius who nearly made his, and 2.x million other people's, dream come true. Some will suggest he's worse than Hitler.

This is all dreams, they paid extra to hire some names, just as they did for the SQ42 movie, just as they did with Illfonic, CGBot, setting up F42 by hiring local Lego talent, throw cash at the problem.  If the names were the right choices or not, well the current "game" should demonstrate if they could overcome the limits enforced by Chris Roberts micro managing and going with whatever is cool at the moment coupled with a complete lack of understanding of, well anything, so that's a firm no.  How did Illfonic work out, another firm no, time/money wasted.  Take notice of all the promotions from QA, the new hires with their first gaming role, the lack of game producers with a shipped game to their name.  Ben Lesnick described a game producer as a kind of secretary, what did he do before, oh he worked in a school. Even Tony Zurovec has been out of the industry for years.

But leaving all that aside, I notice that you completely side stepped the topic you brought up that we were talking about.  You guys beat the drum of well CIG didn't go bust in 90 days as if it means anything.  Chris Roberts has been selling dreams since October 2012, not only does the dream keep changing and getting bigger, he forgets what he's said before and he's not called on it anywhere near enough.  50% of the active forum users voted CIG had actually broken the pledge, the only solid promise some think they've actually made.

I'm at a complete loss to how you expect him to keep to anything he's said if it's awkward and it will be.  Balancing thousand dollar spaceships with $30 starters would be a lot more than awkward.  But it doesn't matter, there'll never be a game as such, all CIG do is make marketing videos and have sales, the actual game is completely broken.  Aptly demonstrated by the fact they haven't actually fixed anything or had a patch in months and they're selling ships with crew sizes larger than max instance sizes.

This is not a computer game, it's a role-playing game, all the content is in your head.

Also you have nothing to apologise to me for, I find your justifications fascinating. The only question remaining is how long you guys will keep reaching into your wallets for the sales before you wake up, the sales they need at least one of every single month.
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: Kyrt on November 22, 2016, 11:29:49 PM
Those are all valid points.

However, the problem they have now is that even with an MVP, which Chris had already hinted at (heck even his 4.0 by end of 2017 isn't even an MVP!), they still won't be able to deliver that by end of 2017. Which means they will still need on-going funding to even deliver that. Not to mention that he's bet a lot on SQ42. I don't know if anyone thinks that SQ42 has any chance of making an impact, when in fact most backers already entitled to it. Not to mention the fact that all the money they are making from concept ships, are for the PU, not SQ42

Will 4.0 launch at EoY 17 as promised?
I think it is possible. If my reading of Kotaku is correct, major issues involving blocks such as the engine have mostly been resolved. If true, we can potentially expect development speed to increase.

Having said that...I doubt it. I would expect 4.0 mid 2018 myself with a Beta possibly EoY 2018 and a full release mid 2019.

It'd be possible to accelerate that timetable or slow it down depending on what CR is willing to put into his MVP.

As for SQ42...I have to agree that games like CODIW will have stolen a lot of its thunder. And that a lot of players have already paid for it and its first...of three IIRC correctly...expansions which will hamper revenue streams. I don't know how much marketing CR plans for it...or even if he will market it...but a marketing campaign could be expensive.

However....because of the funding model, CIG might not care about marketing the game. Word of mouth...reviews...etc....might generate enough new sales for them. There is no incentive here to maximise exposure because the people they have to please have already bought the game. And there is no immediate need for a quick release because SQ42 NEEDS to be good so it doesn't poison the waterhole.

What is worrying about SQ42 is that if the game is really due for release next year, I would have expected some formal marketing already. Even if it were just previews or screenshots in the regular press. I'm not seeing it. I'm not even sure people will be aware SC and SQ42 have effectively split into two games.

Which was a smart decision in some ways....but bad in others IMO.  Same with the console talk...CIG need to maximise their income so a console release is smart. Its a pity PC only was a big talking point of the campaign.

Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: Kyrt on November 22, 2016, 11:35:33 PM
Build a 64 bit floating point precision map in CryEngine, millions of kilometres wide.

A 64 bit system other games such as Elite also uses.

And because Elite uses a custom engine, it was apparently able to make use of certain mathematical tricks to allow it to work with a 128 bit scale.

The more I learn, the more it seems Chris Roberts decision not to develop a custom engine was a mistake. Or...if he had to buy an engine, he could has looked into licensing the engine used by Elite.

Elite has problems of its own...but it was able to be developed and released cheaply and quickly.
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: jcrg99 on November 23, 2016, 04:46:06 AM
The difference is visible if you break it down. Chris says, '[We hope to give you, AC module/Planetside/Star Marine/2.0/2.5], [on this possible date/time frame]. First part happens. Second part is less predictable, but has happened eventually. Not exactly a fail.
While the second part is less predictable, hardly, any serious game developer would come to the customers or investors and claim that something was near release, a couple of weeks, but then, that thing did not happen even years later. You claim that AC Module and Planetside happened. It didn't. Roberts promised on 2013, that you would be flying from space to planet, at least in two locations by earlier 2014. We are now in 2016 and all "Planetside" they have is an empty area with nothing to do. The AC module has nothing that will keep people tied to it for more hours than the hours that take to download the thing, at least, for the majority of the public. And Star Marine never happened. Still to be released. So, yes. This is a fail. If you plan and say something to your customer and deliver crap or something so deviated from what you said, both in time frame and quality (fun), if you don't consider that a fail, there is no such thing as failing.

Derek says, [Money runs out/Mass walk out/Law suits/Can't be done/Smoke and mirrors], [90 days tops/End of Year/Last CitizenCon]. None of which has happened. First part, (content), or second part, (time frame).
Derek is not selling anything. He has a grey view about the project. He can make all the mistakes possible and still be considered as a good analyst, considering the information that he has avaialble to make his predictions. Now... Roberts... he has everything in front of him. And you prefer to hold Derek, but not Roberts accountable. Consider Derek failing, but not Roberts. This is ridiculous.


Quote from: ConfusedMonkeh
I'll say it again. Every time I log in to Crusader, there are people playing the game. Chat is busy, people are having fun. Fact. People are playing the game.
Certainly a couple of dozen people playing on Crusader is not enough to claim that the majority of the community or the general public play this game. Have you ever counted how many are playing, or if they are different people? Please do that and enlight us then with this data. But remember. Sometimes, people use multiple accounts. Otherwise, your comment is totally irrelevant and with any objectivity. So much for claiming that others offer "opinions" and you pretend to have facts.


Quote from: ConfusedMonkeh
See above. Chat is busy. People are excited. The forums are busy. People are excited.
See above.

Quote from: ConfusedMonkeh
Trying to deny the potential of what is on offer is silly. How well they pull it off is a completely different conversation of course but come on, denying it's potential is ridiculous.
Any developer that is interested to sell dreams and hopes can deliver what they do. Can deliver something, regardless any feasibility of that thing, in the way that is implemented, never will work out under the promised design that hyped people to buy into the thing. There is nothing shown so far that demonstrated the potential of delivery in any acceptable time frame and working fine for the public, to satisfy not just their own community (not 2000 zealots that praise Roberts instead the the game/project, cosniderign it optional in the end of the day, I Am talking about their 500k backers at least, that wanted the game as promised). The only thing that they have been demonstrating along these yeras is the contrary. IS that they can't deliver into their promises and that they managed to make people invest crazy quantities of money for assets and a game that wouldn't have the value of 20 dollars, if sold without all this Amway scheme, in the traditional way, with the features that RSI will be actually able to deliver in the next 2/3 years.

Quote from: ConfusedMonkeh
The time frame could be a potential problem but Squadron will be here fast enough,
You are so delayed as Chris Roberts my friend. Squadron should be released by 2014 (per Roberts). Then 2015 (per Roberts). Then 2016 (per Roberts). Now the interest definitely dropped. It won't be THAT thing that could be if released by 2014. CoD IW is out there. ME:Andromeda is coming earlier... they are not exactly the same game, but pretty much stole already the "surprise" element and just as the demo that they shown about Star Marine, the biggest chances is that for most of its community and general public, Squadron 42 be a meh of a game, specially because press and everyone will put in this balance, all that was needed to make Squadron 42, meaning, all the crazy scheme of asking people 2500 dollars for one in-game asset, that won't be even useful, available, in this Squadron 42, for players.

Quote from: ConfusedMonkeh
how good it is could decide the future of SC I suppose. With the number of rabid fans out there I get the feeling it won't need to be spectacular to be good enough to drive the project to completion. Time will tell.
I have no doubt. But, by "project to completion", clearly, you imply that be whatever and not something to live up to his hype or with the promised features hyped along the last years. That became clear in the moment that you claimed that Roberts accomplished with its promises, like AC and other modules, when in fact, nothing of that was finished, nothing of that lived up to his hype and nothing of that is good, except for a couple thousands rabid fans. They can keep this for longer... of course... But this game never will be accomplished in any level as promised, or, if that happens one day, others in the industry will have already make SC a meh outdated game, with a few different features and details that in the end of the day, will be ignored for most of the public of the game industry. As I already said: Mediocre.

Quote from: jcrg99
Meh. Funding is funding.
Again, showing one more time total lack of objectivity


Quote from: ConfusedMonkeh
As I said, only time will tell
You are delayed as Roberts. Time already told.


Quote from: ConfusedMonkeh
What we know:
Probable:
'UEE Fleet' number of accounts with ships attached?
Hardly a conspiracy.
UEE Fleet is the number of ships sold, not accounts with ships. The other number is number of accounts created in the website, many of them, with zero invested, duplicated accounts etc. And there just a couple hundreds people playing Star Citizen... that is yours "many people excited" that you claimed before.

Quote from: ConfusedMonkeh
The counter has to be considered accurate.
That sounded to me as "The Bible has to be considered accurate". Total lack of objectivity from your side here... again. Considering that Roberts already was caught lying to the public/press, etc., many times, I highly doubt that the counter is accurate.
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: dsmart on November 23, 2016, 07:32:38 AM
Chris, and his company, have done what other 'tier 1' devs said was impossible already. (Archived fact).

Such as?

Build a 64 bit floating point precision map in CryEngine, millions of kilometres wide.

Wow. That's all you could come up with?

I hate to break it to you though, but that's pure - and utter - rubbish. You all know this.

64-Bit floating point precision map is NOT the same as 64-Bit positioning. In fact, on Nov 22, 2015, I wrote a missive explaining that (http://www.dereksmart.org/forums/topic/star-citizen-year-four/#post-1812).

But despite the fact that even the engineers have gone on the record debunking that nonsense, some of you still keep parroting it.

Basically, all the scenes are "stitched" together in order to have a cohesive whole that quantum travel sequence hides.
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: dsmart on November 23, 2016, 07:44:17 AM
The game won't need to be amazing to succeed. Pay to win is an interesting conversation. I think you have to remember that they have some of the very best game designers working on this game. All the names that the nerds respect for being awesome. Pappy, Zurovec, Roberts Bros etc. It doesn't seem hard to envisage a game where the average Idris owner wouldn't be giving two hoots what the Aurora starter pilot is doing. In any way shape or form. As long as the lone Aurora guy can work his way upwards in vaguely fun ways, it's not pay to win in any game breaking way.

Sorry, but yet again, time will tell. Will some of the best game developers around manage to work out fun stuff for huge ship owners and little ship owners to play and progress? Well I can think of plenty of ways and I'm an idiot. Massive org owner is helping out the UEE or any other faction against any other larger faction, NPC, alien or otherwise. Aurora guy is doing a 'Homestead' type mission. Never shall they cross paths.

It really doesn't seem that hard to me.

How will they be judged? Hey guess what? Time will tell. If it succeeds, some will hail Chris as a visionary genius who made his, and 2.x million other people's, dreams come true. Some will deride his efforts as wasteful, narcissistic and nowhere near good enough.

If it fails, some will hail Chris as the visionary genius who nearly made his, and 2.x million other people's, dream come true. Some will suggest he's worse than Hitler.

But leaving all that aside, I notice that you completely side stepped the topic you brought up that we were talking about.  You guys beat the drum of well CIG didn't go bust in 90 days as if it means anything.  Chris Roberts has been selling dreams since October 2012, not only does the dream keep changing and getting bigger, he forgets what he's said before and he's not called on it anywhere near enough.  50% of the active forum users voted CIG had actually broken the pledge, the only solid promise some think they've actually made.

The thing is that even back when they released 2.0, I took one look at it, assessed what they had left, and said that there was no way in hell either game was coming out in 2016.

I wrote about that here on Nov 21, 2015 (http://www.dereksmart.org/forums/topic/star-citizen-year-four/#post-1810) shortly after PU 2.0 was released to much post-CitizenCon2015 fanfare. I said:

Quote
And what we’re seeing in this 2.0 release, despite it being in the PTU and not final release, is precisely what I predicted would happen back when they released the buggy social/planetside module.

I have no confidence – none – that they will ever deliver the Star Citizen they promised. At least not in 2016. From what they just released to the PTU as 2.0, my estimation is still that this project is at least 2-3 years and another $75m (if they are frugal) away.

If they survive 2016 long enough to deliver SQ42 EP1 (they promised 70 missions. lol!!) which they are now heavily pushing, my guess is that’s the good faith they’re now shooting for. Guess what? All existing backers are already entitled to it. And now it’s being sold separately for $45 to non-backers. Imagine then how those who have spent upwards of $30K on this project will feel when all they will have got is a half-baked Star Citizen and a SQ42 that others only paid $45 for.

There is absolutely no fucking version of this where it ends well for anyone. Chris has completely and totally screwed this once promising project.

Yet, they ignore all these predictions and analysis, instead, focusing on "they didn't collapse in 90 days" bullshit. Amid all the lies he keeps telling, and scam tactics being used to continue milking whales. Given what we know now, it's easy to conclude that had they stopped giving them money, the project would either have died this year, or been heavily down-sized in resources. Which is precisely what I've said is likely to happen in 2017.

I said Star Marine was benched. They said I lied. I said SQ42 wasn't coming out in 2016. Same thing. I said the PU was fucked. Same thing. It goes on and on and on. They are in complete denial, and will continue to argue while taking the most ludicrous of stances.

Here we are at the end of 2017; and they haven't done much for a WHOLE YEAR in which they received over $30 million in funding. All they've released this year, and since the first hangar release, as per the 2.5 feature list (https://robertsspaceindustries.com/feature-list) are:

- patches
- clothing shop
- hangar ready ships
- flight ready ships
- GrimHex base

No meaningful gameplay other than the repetitive flip-a-switch missions. No gameplay mechanics.

That's it. If I missed anything, someone can correct me.

ps: I just created a new thread (http://www.dereksmart.com/forum/index.php?topic=29.0) to discuss the merits of the "game"
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: ConfusedMonkeh on November 23, 2016, 10:59:03 AM
Ok. I think I'm done here.  It's been fun.

Time will tell.

See you in the 'verse commandos.
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: Propagandist on November 23, 2016, 11:05:30 AM
See you in the 'verse commandos.

Not likely but thanks for stopping by and talking to us!  Godspeed commando
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: dsmart on November 23, 2016, 11:12:46 AM
Ok. I think I'm done here.  It's been fun.

Time will tell.

See you in the 'verse commandos.

Wait!! Don't go!! You didn't respond to my post!! That's like rage quitting!!  :argh:
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: ANeuroticCorncob on November 23, 2016, 11:48:23 AM
Ok. I think I'm done here.  It's been fun.

Time will tell.

See you in the 'verse commandos.

savagely owned.
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: Scruffpuff on November 23, 2016, 02:58:34 PM
The "time will tell" parting shot shows probability comprehension to be around 0%.  We should be thankful - people like that are why we have lotteries (which is basically free money for the state) and so on.  On the other hand, people like that are why scams thrive.  So I guess it's a wash - Chris claims more unearned cash to burn for his own uses.
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: Mehlan on November 23, 2016, 11:51:01 PM
"Here we are at the end of 2017; and they haven't done much for a WHOLE YEAR in which they received over $30 million in funding. All they've released this year, and since the first hangar release, as per the 2.5 feature list are:"

  Well to be honest, really...they haven't done much in two years.   2015 was almost all about 'Star Marine' and we know how that turned out.   2016 Wasn't much play wise either.  Some where in there they put out the mini-pu tossed out some satellites with the same 'yawn' npcs.    Where's the vaunted 'AI' we heard so much about that should have been in the works for the last several years (that whole 'modular development' thing).
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: ConfusedMonkeh on November 24, 2016, 06:25:38 AM
Ok. I think I'm done here.  It's been fun.

Time will tell.


See you in the 'verse commandos.

Wait!! Don't go!! You didn't respond to my post!! That's like rage quitting!!  :argh:

Seeing as Derek misses me so much already (http://archive.is/eLns2), I thought I'd come back for another chat. There was no 'huff' to be fair. More a sigh. A sigh of pity for jcr and his down right warped view of reality and a sigh of expectation at your, either downright lies or wanton misunderstanding. Also, who am I to deny you all your daily lols?

Best way to do this I think is to explain my thought process. Always up for providing more lols me. You're welcome.

I heard Chris mention the 64 bit conversion shortly after I bought my first package in Jan 2014. He mentioned it was millions of lines of code and a huge undertaking and he said they'd been working on it for quite some time already and it was coming along.

It may shock you to hear but I am not a game developer. I thought of a couple of things that seemed to debunk your theory. I read your linked missive again and decided I couldn't determine the truth of it either way. WTF do I know?

Flying at cruise speeds for more than 8km in a single direction would prove it's not a 32 bit position system wouldn't it? You mention world origin rebasing, so the '0 point' could move with the ship...

You can QD anywhere in the map, with or without a POI, so how can it load a scene with no POI nearby? Space is pretty empty so I doubt it would be too hard to position the coordinates of the POI's appropriately and generate a scene of empty space...

I've seen a video of a spectator seeing a ship QD through their perspective...It wasn't that obvious but I don't think that one could be explained with your theory but meh. Not enough.

I know you're wrong though. So what to do? I decided to do some research and ask one of the CIG devs direct.

The CryEngine forums had a couple of threads about SC and 'StarEngine' and there is even some CryEngine dev responses in there as well. They appeared to back up CIG's version of events without being obvious. I was even more sure you were full of it Derek.

I messaged a CIG developer on the RSI forums and asked outright, quoting your comment:

I hate to break it to you though, but that's pure - and utter - rubbish. You all know this.

64-Bit floating point precision map is NOT the same as 64-Bit positioning. In fact, on Nov 22, 2015, I wrote a missive explaining that.

But despite the fact that even the engineers have gone on the record debunking that nonsense, some of you still keep parroting it.

Basically, all the scenes are "stitched" together in order to have a cohesive whole that quantum travel sequence hides.


The dev was kind enough to respond to me. Here is part of the reply:

it's true that things get *authored* as isolated scenes. That's just good sense. But this whole "stitching" thing is just lack of imagination on his part, I think. Or a setup for him to backpedal and say that because assets get loaded as you approach them, he was right all along.
If all you want is a dev saying he's wrong, well, he's wrong.


Here's a recent interview with Sean Tracey that seems to suggest you're wrong as well.


The moral of this story is very simple. Just because you don't think something is viable or possible doesn't mean it can't or shouldn't be done. They've done it. Claiming otherwise just makes you look even more ridiculous than ever.

The "time will tell" parting shot shows probability comprehension to be around 0%.  We should be thankful - people like that are why we have lotteries (which is basically free money for the state) and so on.  On the other hand, people like that are why scams thrive.  So I guess it's a wash - Chris claims more unearned cash to burn for his own uses.

What the? I'm saying time will tell because it's true. All you guys are so certain you're assessment of the project is the only possible one. It's daft. You don't know. I don't know. The only certain thing is that time will tell.

Jcr: Truly can't be bothered responding to you again. It's pointless. You're lost in negativity. Good luck hombre.  May life treat you better than your perception of how CIG did.

Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: jcrg99 on November 24, 2016, 08:44:13 AM
It may shock you to hear but I am not a game developer. I thought of a couple of things that seemed to debunk your theory. I read your linked missive again and decided I couldn't determine the truth of it either way. WTF do I know?
...
I know you're wrong though.
Yeah, yeah... ok.

So what to do? I decided to do some research and ask one of the CIG devs direct.
 
The moral of this story is very simple. Just because you don't think something is viable or possible doesn't mean it can't or shouldn't be done. They've done it. Claiming otherwise just makes you look even more ridiculous than ever.
Dismiss what DS says because don't understand. Accept what a dev under the paycheck of RSI says. Ok.

So, how is working the high fidelity capital/fleet battles full PvP in one Universe with millions of players logged in, with ship-to-ship combat and FPS combat going on seamlessly? 

Oh! I see... It does not exist... That's just to show how irrelevant were all your points and research, in this try to claim "They've done it". Anyone can do anything specifically. Some tech. Some high fidelity demo. Some whatever. The problem is, making Star Citizen as promised to work. That is what matters and what people, us, everyone else and Derek Smart probably care more. You just wasted your time sir, not bringing any reliable source in the first place.

RSI developers, specially the ones who usually contact the public, by this point, lied so much in the face of the people, so many times, that you should understand that they are the last source that you should bring to prove any point. Or what they answer for is so specific that is meaningless to the whole. The effect have been the contrary. When they say that its possible and they've done, people automatically will believe that they didn't make anything and are just trying to keep the public believing for longer. You should realize that.

Or just keep with your head buried in the sand, bringing all their answers that basically means nothing as didn't mean nothing in the last years too. Only the fanboys believe in whatever they say and ignore how many times THEY were wrong or just lying. And then, they answer whatever and that is enough to prove anyone else wrong.. Still.. the game, their actual deliveries, proves everyone else, but them, right.

And, once again... to make this clear... the specifics does not matter. What matters is the whole and is under THIS PREMISSE, of the whole, that Derek Smart and many others say that SC never will be released as promised. Anyone can do any tech that never will work in the end for the actual purpose that it was or should be built. See?

Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: dsmart on November 24, 2016, 09:07:55 AM
*snipped a bunch of rubbish*


I messaged a CIG developer on the RSI forums and asked outright, quoting your comment:

I hate to break it to you though, but that's pure - and utter - rubbish. You all know this.

64-Bit floating point precision map is NOT the same as 64-Bit positioning. In fact, on Nov 22, 2015, I wrote a missive explaining that.

But despite the fact that even the engineers have gone on the record debunking that nonsense, some of you still keep parroting it.

Basically, all the scenes are "stitched" together in order to have a cohesive whole that quantum travel sequence hides.


The dev was kind enough to respond to me. Here is part of the reply:

it's true that things get *authored* as isolated scenes. That's just good sense. But this whole "stitching" thing is just lack of imagination on his part, I think. Or a setup for him to backpedal and say that because assets get loaded as you approach them, he was right all along.
If all you want is a dev saying he's wrong, well, he's wrong.

I am a tier 1 engineer, I deal in absolutes - not semantics. There is literally NOBODY in the ENTIRE team over there, that has worked on ANY project of this type and/or scope. And the past 4 years has proven - without a doubt - that they're just winging it, spending a lot of time on R&D, tech demos etc - still no game. So excuse me if I scoff at anything that any "engineer" over there has to say.

The "stitching" thing is 100% factual and isn't even open to discussion because I am 100% correct. That's how it is being done, it's how to do it because it would be impossible to fit an entire world into memory. Why? Because it's not procedurally generated.

When you have two scenes (S1, S2) which are different, and part of the game "world", they have to be stitched somehow. It's not only efficient, but it also gives more options for scene and player management. As big as Elite Dangerous is, they do it. ALL my games do it. Including Universal Combat (see this world review video (https://vimeo.com/147947830)), which has the largest (until ED, it was the largest in gaming history) game world.

The key to having a "seamless" world is either i) procedural or ii) stitch it

If you go with (i) you use data values to generate the scenes in real-time

If you go with (ii) then that's where loading screens come from. When player moves from S1 to S2, you unload S1, then load S2. This is what ALL games with different scenes do.

If you want to give the illusion of a "seamless" world, then you have to come up with ways to stitch S1 + S2 in order to give that illusion as it being one cohesive whole. And there are several ways to do it. The two most popular ways are to either (i) stream load S2 when the player hits a trigger point in S1 or (ii) create a transit illusion when the player is committed to moving from S1 to S2.  The commit phase is why you use one of these to go from S1 to S2. You can't get out of it.

In ALL my space combat sim games (Battlecruiser/Universal Combat), I use option (i) to go from space to planet, and vice-versa - via an external camera transition when the player's ship breaches the planets gravitational pull, or when they climb up high enough and hit Escape Velocity to leave the planet. And I use option (ii) via a jump anomaly (jump gate, wormhole, fluxfield) to go from one space region to another.

This is what the segmented world of BC/UC (http://3000ad.com/downloads/ucce30/GAME_GALAXY_MAP.JPG) looks like. It's not procedural; so each scene (space and planets are different) is completely separate. Each space scene is a simple small binary file with data that the top-level AI script parses in real time, to generate the scene, and pointers to everything in it. It's fast and efficient - hence no loading times.

This is what the data definition file for the Earth space region looks like:

Code: [Select]
Ted32 text format file id:191550422,1
Unit:3 (Km)
 group:MAIN
 size:0,origin:(0,0,0),extents:(0,0,0)(0,0,0)
 (
   points (11):
   pid 0:(72496,860087,393344)
   pid 1:(-413288301,-330238555,350381112)
   pid 2:(-65804045,-697187263,-524462638)
   pid 3:(-737764523,172603385,85956996)
   pid 4:(476547561,7329222,-30087638)
   pid 5:(-6221827,592913797,-389212126)
   pid 6:(654311881,647176854,-325243888)
   pid 7:(-436135255,370818784,-42587638)
   pid 8:(737466352,-598273156,225537362)
   pid 9:(565000000,145000000,435000000)
   pid 10:(410000000,-395000000,435000000)
   structures (10):
   [0] col:2 at:0,use:PLANET.3D:EARTH
   [0] col:11 at:1,Rx:85, use:JUMP.3D:JMP-01
   [0] col:11 at:2,Rx:90, use:JUMP.3D:JMP-02
   [0] col:11 at:3,Rx:94, use:JUMP.3D:JMP-05
   [0] col:11 at:4,Rx:94, use:JUMP.3D:JMP-04
   [0] col:11 at:5,Rx:89, use:JUMP.3D:JMP-10
   [0] col:11 at:6,Rx:90, use:JUMP.3D:JMP-12
   [0] col:11 at:7,Rx:89, use:JUMP.3D:JMP-11
   [0] col:11 at:8,Rx:92, use:JUMP.3D:JMP-03
   [0] col:7 at:10,use:MOON.3D:MOON
   subgroups (3):
   include:PLANET.3D
   include:JUMP.3D
   include:MOON.3D
 )

This is an excerpt from the master data file showing what the data definition for Mercury, Venus, Earth planet region looks like:

Code: [Select]
#
# SOL SYSTEM
#
."SOL","skybox08"
#
# MERCURY
#
:Mercury.3d,p,"MERCURY","SOL","PLANET 1/9"
:Mercuryz.3d,s,"TERRAN","SOL","SECTOR D9"
mercury,p,mercury,ptype01,ptype01,hot,TERRAN,4440,4878
jmp-10,j,earthz:TO..EARTH
jmp-15,j,venusz:TO..VENUS
flx-04,f,mercuryz,snv01z,blk01z
#
# VENUS
#
:Venus.3d,p,"VENUS","SOL","PLANET 2/9"
:Venusz.3d,s,"TERRAN","SOL","SECTOR D9"
Venus,p,venus,ptype02,ptype02,hot,TERRAN,25000,12100
jmp-02,j,earthz:TO..EARTH
jmp-14,j,plutoz:TO..PLUTO
jmp-15,j,mercuryz:TO..MERCURY
#
# EARTH
#
:Moonp.3d,p,"MOON","SOL","EARTH MOON"
:Earth.3d,p,"EARTH","SOL","PLANET 3/9"
:Earthz.3d,s,"TERRAN","SOL","SECTOR D9"
Earth,p,earth,earth,earth,temp,TERRAN,1440,12756
Moon,m,moonp,mtype07,mtype07,cold,TERRAN,38880,3476
jmp-10,j,mercuryz:TO..MERCURY
jmp-02,j,venusz:TO..VENUS
jmp-01,j,marsz:TO..MARS
jmp-04,j,jupiterz:TO..JUPITER
jmp-05,j,saturnz:TO..SATURN
jmp-03,j,uranusz:TO..URANUS
jmp-11,j,neptunez:TO..NEPTUNE
jmp-12,j,plutoz:TO..PLUTO

In both of the above, there are no scene "levels". It's all procedurally generated from pure data files. I wrote that back in the eighties, and have improved on it throughout the years, and is the tech still used in the upcoming Universal Combat - The Lyrius Conflict (http://www.3000ad.com/games/universal-combat-lyrius-conflict/).

This is what the segmented world of LOD (http://www.lodgame.com/downloads/docs/GAME_WORLD_MAP.JPG) looks like.

The space (4 scenes), planetary (4 scenes), stations (4 scenes), carrier (3 scene decks) are all hand crafted in a scene/level editor because the engine is totally different from my previous engines, and was developed specifically to power this game. It fits the purpose because, though LOD takes place in a small (Syrius region) region of the IP world (see the UC map above), it was designed to be multiplayer, and so more control over the scene loading, population etc - were required due to the design of the Wide Span Global (http://lodgame.com/faqs/how-many-players-are-supported/) networking tech we built to handle both session and MMO based connectivity.

When the player goes from one scene to the next via a jump anomaly, a loading screen is required because it's both efficient in terms of memory, performance, but also in terms of determining pop count. The "stitching" of these scenes to give the illusion of a cohesive world, is standard fare. Nothing ground breaking about it.

And it was built this way because my long term plan for LOD is to build the ENTIRE game world (that the IP is based on) via DLC. Doing it this way, is both efficient and cost effective. So one day, in addition to Sirius (already in LOD), we could end up with the adjacent systems (Sol, Barnard's Star, Alpha Centauri, Polaris, Tau Ceti, Omicron Eridani, Procyon) in the TERRAN quadrant. Then build the other quads over the years. And THAT'S why I spent all this resources on the game, but still started off small. And doing it this way then allows me to incorporate other game play mechanics such as trading and exploration, while bringing in assets such as all the transports and capital ships (http://www.3000ad.com/downloads/ucce/appendix/appendix.html) (cruisers, carriers) in the IP. The end result is a much accessible - and much simpler Battlecruiser/Universal Combat game - with multiplayer. And in the end, the FPS on planets and inside stations, will carry over to the capital ships - which is why the 3-deck Starguard carrier is in LOD as a test bed in which you can do all those things - besides fly (only devs can) it. I didn't have $130 million from a bunch of gullible fools to build it. I funded it 100% on my own.

Star Citizen is doing EXACTLY what LOD is doing. All their scenes are hand-crafted in CryEngine editor, and "demand loaded" when a player needs to transition from one place to another. In the case of going from one place to another in space, this "stitching" "hidden" behind a jump transition sequence. And if by some miracle they happen to create a planetary region, it too will be hand-crafted and demand loaded - and "stitched" - in the SAME EXACT WAY. Why? Because they DO NOT have procedural generated scenes (space or planets) because the terrain surface area is just a map they generated in the editor; then populated.

NOTE: The "dev" above, pretty much confirms what I said above, but uses semantics to deny that the entire world isn't cohesive, but rather, is "stitched".

"it's true that things get *authored* as isolated scenes. That's just good sense. But this whole "stitching" thing is just lack of imagination on his part, I think. Or a setup for him to backpedal and say that because assets get loaded as you approach them, he was right all along. If all you want is a dev saying he's wrong, well, he's wrong."

Using buzz words doesn't change the facts. And "buzz words" and "semantics" are what the Star Citizen devs excel (clearly, they can't build a game after 4 yrs and $135 million) at.

Anyone who thinks that this starmap of the game's universe (https://robertsspaceindustries.com/starmap/) is one cohesive whole that isn't "stitched", is a FOOL. And if you believe that they are actually going to build (LOL!!!) all of that, and you will be moving "seamlessly" from place to place - sans "stitching" - please, do go and buy an Idris while you wait.

And NONE of the above  has ANYTHING to do with a "64-Bit world" - which Star Citizen simply does NOT have. And they haven't stated anything to the contrary either, instead, relying on obfuscation to keep backers guessing and theory-crafting bullshit on-the-fly.

Quote
Here's a recent interview with Sean Tracey that seems to suggest you're wrong as well.

The moral of this story is very simple. Just because you don't think something is viable or possible doesn't mean it can't or shouldn't be done. They've done it. Claiming otherwise just makes you look even more ridiculous than ever.

Good thing that you're not a developer, just another clueless fool who i) believes what's coming from a band of KNOWN LIARS ii) doesn't understand ANY of what Brian said in that video

HINT: No, he didn't - in any way, shape or form, disprove what I've stated.

Here's a neat trick, go ahead and show your "developer contact" this post, and have him explain to you how they are building their worlds, that it's not "stitched", doing transitions etc. I'll wait - right here.

ps: While you're at it, see this OP (http://www.dereksmart.com/forum/index.php?topic=29.msg214#msg214) where I discuss some of their "tech"
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: AP on November 24, 2016, 09:16:02 AM
The moral of this story is very simple.

Guys asks another guy if he's been an idiot to give him money, 2nd guys says no.
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: ConfusedMonkeh on November 24, 2016, 09:23:26 AM
Oh ffs. Why do I bother. I never said I didn't understand Derek. I couldn't work out to adequately debunk his theory so I asked a dev to help. I haven't posted the entire reply but let's just say I was convinced, even more, that Derek is wrong by the rest.

I'm not a drone believing whatever I read that seems to agree with my point of view. I did some research. I've followed along very closely. Both sides. I believe what I do after assessing information.

I said I wasn't replying to you again. I should have meant it.

Sorry. That was to jcr. I'm in work. I'll see what you've said  when I can Derek. BRB.
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: dsmart on November 24, 2016, 09:30:16 AM
Oh ffs. Why do I bother. I never said I didn't understand Derek. I couldn't work out to adequately debunk his theory so I asked a dev to help. I haven't posted the entire reply but let's just say I was convinced, even more, that Derek is wrong by the rest.

I'm not a drone believing whatever I read that seems to agree with my point of view. I did some research. I've followed along very closely. Both sides. I believe what I do after assessing information.

I said I wasn't replying to you again. I should have meant it.

Sorry. That was to jcr. I'm in work. I'll see what you've said  when I can Derek. BRB.

Yet, here you are. And you haven't stated WHAT I am wrong about, and WHY. You know, words are meaningless without context. So please, by all means, post this information that proves me wrong. Why not? NOTHING you've said above debunks ANYTHING I've stated. And semantics simply aren't going to cut it.
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: jcrg99 on November 24, 2016, 11:46:34 AM
I'm not a drone believing whatever I read that seems to agree with my point of view, but I am a drone believing whatever I read that seems to agree with my point of view.

Fixed for you.
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: Rogerio on November 24, 2016, 01:31:43 PM
I'm not a drone believing whatever I read that seems to agree with my point of view, but I am a drone believing whatever I read that seems to agree with my point of view.

Fixed for you.

Bem vindo jcrg99!  :lesnick:

Welcome jcrg99!  :snoop:
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: ConfusedMonkeh on November 24, 2016, 02:40:50 PM

The "stitching" thing is 100% factual and isn't even open to discussion because I am 100% correct. That's how it is being done, it's how to do it because it would be impossible to fit an entire world into memory. Why? Because it's not procedurally generated.

When you have two scenes (S1, S2) which are different, and part of the game "world", they have to be stitched somehow. It's not only efficient, but it also gives more options for scene and player management. As big as Elite Dangerous is, they do it.

The 'entire world' doesn't need to fit into memory at the same time. The memory intensive POIs are only 'authored', via LODs, as players hit the trigger points. I presume the jump points between systems will be 'stitched' via loading screens, but inside each system, there is no loading screen when in quantum drive. You're moving through the large world space. I've seen a video that has caught it happening, a ship, QD screaming past another moving at SCM speeds.

I can, right now in the small Crusader map, QD at 0.2c ish for as long as it takes for me to hit the edge, in any direction. I don't need to go to a POI. I can fly at 1000m/s or so for an hour or four in the same direction, in an engine that used to have a limit on the size of it's maps of around 8x8 km

That's new for a CryEngine game.


Quote from: dsmart
*SOME CODE STUFF*
I wrote that back in the eighties, and have improved on it throughout the years

It saddens me that you can't believe anyone could better an improved version of some code you wrote 30+ years ago.



Quote from: dsmart

Anyone who thinks that this starmap of the game's universe (https://robertsspaceindustries.com/starmap/) is one cohesive whole that isn't "stitched", is a FOOL. And if you believe that they are actually going to build (LOL!!!) all of that, and you will be moving "seamlessly" from place to place - sans "stitching" - please, do go and buy an Idris while you wait.

Agreed. But nobody does think that. That's a preposterous proposition. Each system will be 'stitched' via jump points, but inside each system is a single 'map' millions of km wide.

Quote from: dsmart

Good thing that you're not a developer, just another clueless fool who i) believes what's coming from a band of KNOWN LIARS ii) doesn't understand ANY of what Brian said in that video

HINT: No, he didn't - in any way, shape or form, disprove what I've stated.

Here's a neat trick, go ahead and show your "developer contact" this post, and have him explain to you how they are building their worlds, that it's not "stitched", doing transitions etc. I'll wait - right here.

I don't have a 'developer contact'. I messaged a developer and they replied. I don't believe I am a clueless fool. Opinions on that will vary I'm sure. Que sera sera. Brian Sean doesn't need to disprove what you've stated in that video, he's just discussing what they've done. It's there to be played, right now, in 2.5. A CryEngine map, hundreds of thousands of km wide. In the engine that can only create 8x8 or so.

Quote from: dsmart
I am a tier 1 engineer, I deal in absolutes - not semantics.

A tier one engineer must have a long list of popular and critically acclaimed games to their name! Cool.  Let me go have a look at the absolute Metacritic scores for your back catalogue. Be right back. I could do with a new game to play.
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: J How on November 24, 2016, 03:05:52 PM

The "stitching" thing is 100% factual and isn't even open to discussion because I am 100% correct. That's how it is being done, it's how to do it because it would be impossible to fit an entire world into memory. Why? Because it's not procedurally generated.

When you have two scenes (S1, S2) which are different, and part of the game "world", they have to be stitched somehow. It's not only efficient, but it also gives more options for scene and player management. As big as Elite Dangerous is, they do it.

The 'entire world' doesn't need to fit into memory at the same time. The memory intensive POIs are only 'authored', via LODs, as players hit the trigger points. I presume the jump points between systems will be 'stitched' via loading screens, but inside each system, there is no loading screen when in quantum drive. You're moving through the large world space. I've seen a video that has caught it happening, a ship, QD screaming past another moving at SCM speeds.

I can, right now in the small Crusader map, QD at 0.2c ish for as long as it takes for me to hit the edge, in any direction. I don't need to go to a POI. I can fly at 1000m/s or so for an hour or four in the same direction, in an engine that used to have a limit on the size of it's maps of around 8x8 km

That's new for a CryEngine game.


Quote from: dsmart
*SOME CODE STUFF*
I wrote that back in the eighties, and have improved on it throughout the years

It saddens me that you can't believe anyone could better an improved version of some code you wrote 30+ years ago.



Quote from: dsmart

Anyone who thinks that this starmap of the game's universe (https://robertsspaceindustries.com/starmap/) is one cohesive whole that isn't "stitched", is a FOOL. And if you believe that they are actually going to build (LOL!!!) all of that, and you will be moving "seamlessly" from place to place - sans "stitching" - please, do go and buy an Idris while you wait.

Agreed. But nobody does think that. That's a preposterous proposition. Each system will be 'stitched' via jump points, but inside each system is a single 'map' millions of km wide.

Quote from: dsmart

Good thing that you're not a developer, just another clueless fool who i) believes what's coming from a band of KNOWN LIARS ii) doesn't understand ANY of what Brian said in that video

HINT: No, he didn't - in any way, shape or form, disprove what I've stated.

Here's a neat trick, go ahead and show your "developer contact" this post, and have him explain to you how they are building their worlds, that it's not "stitched", doing transitions etc. I'll wait - right here.

I don't have a 'developer contact'. I messaged a developer and they replied. I don't believe I am a clueless fool. Opinions on that will vary I'm sure. Que sera sera. Brian Sean doesn't need to disprove what you've stated in that video, he's just discussing what they've done. It's there to be played, right now, in 2.5. A CryEngine map, hundreds of thousands of km wide. In the engine that can only create 8x8 or so.

Quote from: dsmart
I am a tier 1 engineer, I deal in absolutes - not semantics.

A tier one engineer must have a long list of popular and critically acclaimed games to their name!  Let me go have a look at the absolute Metacritic scores for your back catalogue. Be right back. I could do with a new game to play.

Sorry but in no way could that be held in memory, even without assuming overhead of the engine or resource pools of loading "millions of km" in the engine, it is simply impossible without causing resource exhaustion on the server or even the client. Limitations on Cryengine (Star Citizen frankenengine) aside it would be nigh on impossible dynamically update that many objects in 3D space at that size without streaming data from the server to the client as a form of "stitching" by procedurally generating the environment around the player based on X,Y,Z.

Let's say the dev is right (doubtful), then why isn't CIG licensing out their breakthrough engine and technology to fund the game? There are game companies screaming for that sort of technology - myself included however it is outside the realms of possibility on a practical standpoint.

Source:  Two cloud architects who work on MMOs. A lone Sys Admin is holding his hands to his face and shaking his head.
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: AP on November 24, 2016, 03:44:36 PM
You can't even fly a spaceship in Star Citizen, your avatar becomes a spaceship.  How can anyone look at 2.5 and think it's anything more than a complete joke?
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: Kyrt on November 24, 2016, 04:42:49 PM
Guys asks another guy if he's been an idiot to give him money, 2nd guys says no.

I think Derek Smart brings up some good points and a number of potential technical issues that the Star Citizen developers might be or have faced.

However....I would take his assertions of 100% certainty with a pinch of salt. CIG might have developed solutions to the issues he sees, or developed their StarEngine to address them or like FD does, might be using technical or mathematical tricks to work around the issues.

I personally think development of star citizen is going better than Derek Smart suggests...but also a lot worse than CIG are letting on.
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: ConfusedMonkeh on November 24, 2016, 04:55:07 PM
Sorry but in no way could that be held in memory, even without assuming overhead of the engine or resource pools of loading "millions of km" in the engine, it is simply impossible without causing resource exhaustion on the server or even the client. Limitations on Cryengine (Star Citizen frankenengine) aside it would be nigh on impossible dynamically update that many objects in 3D space at that size without streaming data from the server to the client as a form of "stitching" by procedurally generating the environment around the player based on X,Y,Z.

Let's say the dev is right (doubtful), then why isn't CIG licensing out their breakthrough engine to fund the game? There are game companies screaming for that sort of technology - myself included however it is outside the realms of possibility on a practical standpoint.

Source:  Two cloud architects who work on MMOs. A lone Sys Admin is holding his hands to his face and shaking his head.

What can't be held in memory? Millions of kilometres of nothing with some POI markers and a few low LOD images of planets and a star? I think you're wrong. The 2.5 alpha which does exactly that, only over a smaller space, (which is still around five factors of ten larger than current maximum CryEngine map), thinks that you're wrong, Elite Dangerous, that does exactly that, thinks that you're wrong.

Source: Star Ctien alpha 2.5 and Elite Dangerous, both showing that it would, and does, fit in memory.

You're trying to tell me that the 2.0 SC alpha never happened. Well I'm sorry but it did.
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: jcrg99 on November 24, 2016, 05:22:57 PM
What can't be held in memory? Millions of kilometres of nothing with some POI markers and a few low LOD images of planets and a star? I think you're wrong. The 2.5 alpha which does exactly that, only over a smaller space, (which is still around five factors of ten larger than current maximum CryEngine map), thinks that you're wrong, Elite Dangerous, that does exactly that, thinks that you're wrong.

Source: Star Ctien alpha 2.5 and Elite Dangerous, both showing that it would, and does, fit in memory.

You're trying to tell me that the 2.0 SC alpha never happened. Well I'm sorry but it did.

Fair enough. So, how went in your rig the epic Fleet Battles with capital ships and fighter squadrons, seamless, full PvP, space combat ship to ship and FPS combat going on inside the ships, boarding parties, pupil to planet, etc, all that in high fidelity, 10x more details than any AAA out there and in an universe with millions of players logged in at the same time? Org battles, etc etc, in this that it was the promised level of fun and fidelity that the game released by the end of 2014 should be.

Last that I heard, nobody pledged for "Star Citizen 2.0 Alpha" with whatever fancy tech that the devs are not able to even be clear if they managed to do this or that, considering that everything that runs over it is broken and messy as hell, and have not even 5% of the features or tech necessary to run the scenario described in the previous paragraph.

Don't you think that you are discussing irrelevant stuff? Who cares if the Star Citizen developers were able to build an engine capable to lead the humanity to Mars. This is not what people pledged for. Where is the tech for Star Citizen that supports the promised scenario? Tip: It does not exist.
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: AP on November 25, 2016, 02:15:59 AM
Guys asks another guy if he's been an idiot to give him money, 2nd guys says no.

I think Derek Smart brings up some good points and a number of potential technical issues that the Star Citizen developers might be or have faced.

However....I would take his assertions of 100% certainty with a pinch of salt. CIG might have developed solutions to the issues he sees, or developed their StarEngine to address them or like FD does, might be using technical or mathematical tricks to work around the issues.

I personally think development of star citizen is going better than Derek Smart suggests...but also a lot worse than CIG are letting on.

I've followed Star Citizen closely since being a backer in 2013 and starting to get my money out before the end of December 2013.  At the point of the delay of Dog Fighting Module in December 2013 it's become obvious that CIG were deceiving people to receive funding.  They didn't tell people the DFM was delayed until after the "end of LTI" sale was over when they obviously knew months in advance they wouldn't be able to meet the end of 2013 estimate.  Check on their store page today in November 2016 and LTI is still for sale, not that it means anything as there'll never be a game.

I think Derek Smart is completely accurate as to the true nature of what's going on.  2 years after the original estimated release date for the whole game, CIG are completely rewriting all the network code and dropping hints of maybe thousands of players being online in the same areas.  It's all fantasy & dreams to hype sales.

I hope when all this is over people at least have the guts to come back and say sorry to Derek for having doubted him.
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: Kyrt on November 25, 2016, 02:18:31 AM
What can't be held in memory? Millions of kilometres of nothing with some POI markers and a few low LOD images of planets and a star? I think you're wrong. The 2.5 alpha which does exactly that, only over a smaller space, (which is still around five factors of ten larger than current maximum CryEngine map), thinks that you're wrong, Elite Dangerous, that does exactly that, thinks that you're wrong.

Source: Star Ctien alpha 2.5 and Elite Dangerous, both showing that it would, and does, fit in memory.

You're trying to tell me that the 2.0 SC alpha never happened. Well I'm sorry but it did.

I'm not quite sure what exactly you are trying to argueng
As I understand Derek Smarts argument, he is saying that the game cannot be "seamless"...that it is stitched together from a number of instances and zones. That it is not one big map...because having just one big map means having to devote server resourves to tracking each and every object within it.

That could be players...it could be ships...it could be planets and moons and stations and it could be every single asteroid in an asteroid belt.

It isn't just POIs that a server needs to keep track of...it would be every single object within the instance.

I would assume clever programming tricks could reduce this number to some degree, but one of those tricks would appear likely to be instances and zoning so that the load can be shared on the servers. And of so, then there would need to be some way to stitch these instances together...two of which Derek Smart outlined.

And we have evidence that CIG does uses instances as it creates dedicated orbit instances and battle instances...so it musr have a way to stitch these together into a whole.

Either that or its developed a revolutionary new system that does away with the need for instancing...in which case it can easily license that technology for additional funding.

So I'm not ecactly sure what point you are trying to make since Toberts own description of how SC works tallies pretty much with what I umderstand Derek Smart is saying

Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: Kyrt on November 25, 2016, 02:48:45 AM
I've followed Star Citizen closely since being a backer in 2013 and starting to get my money out before the end of December 2013.  At the point of the delay of Dog Fighting Module delay in December 2013 it's become obvious that CIG were deceiving people to receive funding.  They didn't tell people the DFM was delayed until after the "end of LTI" sale was over when they obviously knew months in advance they wouldn't be able to meet the end of 2013 estimate.  Check on their store page today in November 2016 and LTI is still for sale, not that it means anything as there'll never be a game.

I think Derek Smart is completely accurate as to the true nature of what's going on.  2 years after the original estimated release date for the whole game, CIG are completely rewriting all the network code and dropping hints of maybe thousands of players being online in the same areas.  It's all fantasy & dreams to hype sales.

I hope when all this is over people at least have the guts to come back and say sorry to Derek for having doubted him.

I would say rather that CIG have handled the situation badly. And their current sales model is not one that encourages them to a quick development process and release date. If they can bring in money via ship sales and will lose a lot of their revenue stream on launch.....well, that's an obvious DISincentive to release the game.

Of course, CIG would say it gives them the freedom to expand the game, to develop it until it is perfect and can deliver the experience that they promised their backers.

Other publishers...Frontier for example...have made their own mistakes. EDs Season Pass for example.

The issue at hand is....
Are CIG developing a game? I believe so
Will they release this game? Again I believe so.

I do not think they are trying to "scam" anyone. But I do think that the luxury of having no investors, the lack of a must meet deadline and a steady income stream during development has removed the urgency of meeting that deadline. There is no incentive to publish the game soon, none to curtail costs or rein in ambition. It means they have the luxury of pushing the game back till everything is "right".

As for Derek Smart...I think he is too caught up in this. I think he makes some very good points about development wrt Star Citizen. But I also think he can be his own worst enemy in this debate. Too certain he is correct. Too certain that if he can't do something, noone can and therefore CIG must be wrong.

I think Derek Smart is correct when he suggests CIG is doing worse than many suppose. That they are having problems. That they may even have funding issues.

But I don't think things are as bad as he is portraying.

But neither do I think things are going as well for CIG as they say. Their new sales seem to indicate a grab for as much money as they can get. That isn't indicative of a business rolling in cash. They've had numerous delays, they've split SQ42 off in a blatant attempt to create a new revenue stream, the demos they've shown have had issues, they've allowed expectations and hype to get out of hand, they've had poor communications with their backers, we still have seen next to nothing of SQ42 - worrisome for a game supposedly due to be released in 2017 - and so on.

But i do believe they are developing the game they want...and I think they'll get the $150 million Derek Smart suggested it would take to realise their vision.

What I don't know is what the game they release will be like, what features it will have or how big it will be. I suspect they will go the MVP route and we will see a lot of stuff patch in later.

Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: AP on November 25, 2016, 02:56:58 AM
What I don't know is what the game they release will be like, what features it will have or how big it will be. I suspect they will go the MVP route and we will see a lot of stuff patch in later.

Given what you have said how concerned would you be if it came to light that CIG was downsizing and staff were leaving?
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: ConfusedMonkeh on November 25, 2016, 03:31:09 AM
What can't be held in memory? Millions of kilometres of nothing with some POI markers and a few low LOD images of planets and a star? I think you're wrong. The 2.5 alpha which does exactly that, only over a smaller space, (which is still around five factors of ten larger than current maximum CryEngine map), thinks that you're wrong, Elite Dangerous, that does exactly that, thinks that you're wrong.

Source: Star Ctien alpha 2.5 and Elite Dangerous, both showing that it would, and does, fit in memory.

You're trying to tell me that the 2.0 SC alpha never happened. Well I'm sorry but it did.

I'm not quite sure what exactly you are trying to argueng
As I understand Derek Smarts argument, he is saying that the game cannot be "seamless"...that it is stitched together from a number of instances and zones. That it is not one big map...because having just one big map means having to devote server resourves to tracking each and every object within it.

That could be players...it could be ships...it could be planets and moons and stations and it could be every single asteroid in an asteroid belt.

It isn't just POIs that a server needs to keep track of...it would be every single object within the instance.

I would assume clever programming tricks could reduce this number to some degree, but one of those tricks would appear likely to be instances and zoning so that the load can be shared on the servers. And of so, then there would need to be some way to stitch these instances together...two of which Derek Smart outlined.

And we have evidence that CIG does uses instances as it creates dedicated orbit instances and battle instances...so it musr have a way to stitch these together into a whole.

Either that or its developed a revolutionary new system that does away with the need for instancing...in which case it can easily license that technology for additional funding.

So I'm not ecactly sure what point you are trying to make since Toberts own description of how SC works tallies pretty much with what I umderstand Derek Smart is saying

CIG have rewritten parts of CryEngine that deal with the amount of space available for a single 'map'. The so called 64 bit conversion. What this has enabled is maps millions of kilometres wide. No stitching. You can fly from one side to the other seamlessly. Once more systems are added then of course they will be stitched when we travel from one to another but when within a single system there is no stitching. The game just loads up any assets as you aproach them. This is how the 2.5 alpha works. Derek seems to think that the POIs are stitched together via a QD loading screen which is patently false.

CIG may well license off their engine when it's finished. They may have already done so.

Derek asked me to provide an example of what CIG have done that nobody has done before and this is exactly that. No one has made a CryEngine map bigger than 8 by 8 km before. CIG have one hundreds of thousands of km wide. No stitching within a system. Just authoring of assets as you approach them.

Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: Kyrt on November 25, 2016, 03:36:39 AM
Given what you have said how concerned would you be if it came to light that CIG was downsizing and staff were leaving?

It would depend on why this was happening.

Even if it were due to a lack of funds, CIG should IMO have enough cash to feature lock SC and put out the MVP they talked about.

My main concern is SQ42.

I think we are close to the point CIG have to put something out to show some actual progress not just on underlying mechanics but actual gameplay. Otherwise they risk losing support from very generous backers.

But...Infinite Warfare has beaten CIG out. Other games are following. SQ42 might get lost in the crowd
CIG hasn't locked down the flight model yet. For a game like SQ42, that seems   to be quite an oversight.
Marketing is going to be expensive....but I haven't seen any. That's going to affect sales unless CIG are going to rely on word of mouth.
SQ42 IMO needs to be good and successful. Its primary goal will need to be incentivising people to keep contributing to SC and providing an alternate revenue stream for CIG. I also have to wonder if a release would mean developers permanently split off from SC to develop new missions, whether changes in flight model, animations and so on will be carried over between the hames, etc.

A bad SQ42 release could really scupper SC.

But right now I'm wondering if SQ42 will be out in 2017. I think it will be but I admit to having wuestiond about the lack of marketing, previews, etc...everything I would expect from a major launch
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: Kyrt on November 25, 2016, 03:56:02 AM
CIG have rewritten parts of CryEngine that deal with the amount of space available for a single 'map'. The so called 64 bit conversion. What this has enabled is maps millions of kilometres wide. No stitching. You can fly from one side to the other seamlessly.

You can do that in other games as well, such as Elite and these games require "stitching". ED even uses math to work with a de facto 128 bit system and its own maps are mich bigger in scale than that reported oso far in Star Citizen.

Quote
Once more systems are added then of course they will be stitched when we travel from one to another but when within a single system there is no stitching. The game just loads up any assets as you aproach them.

So....SC does use a method of stitching scenes together just as Derek Smart suggested.

Quote
This is how the 2.5 alpha works. Derek seems to think that the POIs are stitched together via a QD loading screen which is patently false.

Derek Smarts analysis seem to pretty much correspond with the explanation put forward by Chris Roberts.

Quote
Derek asked me to provide an example of what CIG have done that nobody has done before and this is exactly that

And your example was one which is used by other games. Some even on a larger scale

Quote
No one has made a CryEngine map bigger than 8 by 8 km before. CIG have one hundreds of thousands of km wide. No stitching within a system. Just authoring of assets as you approach them.

You just said they did stitch the system together...just by streaming in data as it is needed. Which is one of the options Derek Smart suggested. He also suggested the use of instances and we know from what Chris Robets said that the game makes extensive use of instances. Dropping out of QD to join a battle or investigate a wreck will create a battle instance. Which again will need some sort of stitching to mesh into the rest of game.

So...I am not seeing where you and he disagree.

He is saying 'stitching is needed' and you are saying 'that is right but you are still wrong". A game world which streams in data and which creates instances as needed is one which requires and has the stitching you say SC doesn't have.
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: ConfusedMonkeh on November 25, 2016, 05:32:46 AM
CIG have rewritten parts of CryEngine that deal with the amount of space available for a single 'map'. The so called 64 bit conversion. What this has enabled is maps millions of kilometres wide. No stitching. You can fly from one side to the other seamlessly.

You can do that in other games as well, such as Elite and these games require "stitching". ED even uses math to work with a de facto 128 bit system and its own maps are mich bigger in scale than that reported oso far in Star Citizen.

Quote
Once more systems are added then of course they will be stitched when we travel from one to another but when within a single system there is no stitching. The game just loads up any assets as you aproach them.

So....SC does use a method of stitching scenes together just as Derek Smart suggested.

Quote
This is how the 2.5 alpha works. Derek seems to think that the POIs are stitched together via a QD loading screen which is patently false.

Derek Smarts analysis seem to pretty much correspond with the explanation put forward by Chris Roberts.

Quote
Derek asked me to provide an example of what CIG have done that nobody has done before and this is exactly that

And your example was one which is used by other games. Some even on a larger scale

Quote
No one has made a CryEngine map bigger than 8 by 8 km before. CIG have one hundreds of thousands of km wide. No stitching within a system. Just authoring of assets as you approach them.

You just said they did stitch the system together...just by streaming in data as it is needed. Which is one of the options Derek Smart suggested. He also suggested the use of instances and we know from what Chris Robets said that the game makes extensive use of instances. Dropping out of QD to join a battle or investigate a wreck will create a battle instance. Which again will need some sort of stitching to mesh into the rest of game.

So...I am not seeing where you and he disagree.

He is saying 'stitching is needed' and you are saying 'that is right but you are still wrong". A game world which streams in data and which creates instances as needed is one which requires and has the stitching you say SC doesn't have.

Are you deliberately misunderstanding? In the game as it is right now there is no 'stitching of scenes'. There is only one scene that players fly within.

When other systems are added then we will see stitching of scenes via jump gates.

Derek said they are stitching now in the alpha. They are not. At all. It's one, very large scene that doesn't require stitching.

Elite has done very large maps but not in CryEngine. That is what CIG have done that nobody has done before. A CryEngine map bigger than 8x8 km.

I'll say it again just in case. Derek says they are stitching now in the alpha. They are not. They will stitch systems together once multiple systems are in place  but the Crusader map is a single scene that doesn't require stitching.
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: Kyrt on November 25, 2016, 06:35:12 AM
Are you deliberately misunderstanding? In the game as it is right now there is no 'stitching of scenes'. There is only one scene that players fly within.

Which according to Chris Roberts own description of how things work, makes extensive usage of instances and zoning not least because the game can only handle so many players in any one aspect.

So I am not certain where you get this idea of only one scene. Even then, your one scene can potentially contain hundreds or thousands of objects which must be tracked...not just POIs and players but NPCs and objects such as asteroids.

You say such objects are loaded in as needed but not only is that a form of stitching but I can't see how the game would know when to load in such assets without maintaining some data and information about it. Which then takes up system resources. Of which there is a finite amount.

Quote
When other systems are added then we will see stitching of scenes via jump gates.

And why do you not consider the dataloading that takes place via this streaming or the use of onstances and zoning "stitching"?

Quote
Derek said they are stitching now in the alpha. They are not. At all. It's one, very large scene that doesn't require stitching.

If they are making use of instances the way they say they are, then they ARE stitching. Tying different scenes together in order to appear as a whole. Even in the alpha.

Quote
Elite has done very large maps but not in CryEngine. That is what CIG have done that nobody has done before. A CryEngine map bigger than 8x8 km.

So...the achievement is not creating 128 bit precision a la ED, it isn't even in creating 64 bit precision....

The achievement is in doing something several other games have done but doing it with a specific game engine no other company saw fit to do because they had better options available.

To put another way....Star Engine is not the only 64 bit engine around.

I'm not certain I would call that a major achievement. They weren't the first to develop such an engine, they won't be the last and converting CryEngine to a 64 bit system might have been a worse option than building their own custom engine from scratch. ED uses a custom engine that developers state allows for 128 bit work via SIMD.

And while CIGs maps are bigger than 8x8km, they still state they use instances and zones. They still have a limit on the number of objects and players they can have in any one scene. They still have a need to manage transitions between different scenes as players and objects and NPCs move.

Hence...stitching of some sort is necessary. Even in Alpha. A point which appears to agree with what BOTH Derek Smart and CIG are saying.

So again...I am not certain why you think that Star Citizen, even in Alpha, has only one scene.

Once you leave a planet...you get put into an orbit instance. Stitching needed.
You set a course and transition to QD. Stitching needed.
Data is streamed while in QD. This is stitching.
The Galaxy Server determines if you have a random encounter. If you do, you transition to a Battle Instance. Stitching needed.
The Galaxy server keeps track of you and other players and even if you don't have a random encounter, might determine that you need to transition to another instance. Stitching needed.

This info is from CIG....so I really do not understand why you think there is only one "scene"


Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: dsmart on November 25, 2016, 07:06:58 AM
*I don't even know where to begin*

The "stitching" thing is 100% factual and isn't even open to discussion because I am 100% correct. That's how it is being done, it's how to do it because it would be impossible to fit an entire world into memory. Why? Because it's not procedurally generated.

When you have two scenes (S1, S2) which are different, and part of the game "world", they have to be stitched somehow. It's not only efficient, but it also gives more options for scene and player management. As big as Elite Dangerous is, they do it.

The 'entire world' doesn't need to fit into memory at the same time. The memory intensive POIs are only 'authored', via LODs, as players hit the trigger points. I presume the jump points between systems will be 'stitched' via loading screens, but inside each system, there is no loading screen when in quantum drive. You're moving through the large world space. I've seen a video that has caught it happening, a ship, QD screaming past another moving at SCM speeds.

I can, right now in the small Crusader map, QD at 0.2c ish for as long as it takes for me to hit the edge, in any direction. I don't need to go to a POI. I can fly at 1000m/s or so for an hour or four in the same direction, in an engine that used to have a limit on the size of it's maps of around 8x8 km

That's new for a CryEngine game.

Wait! What!?  :psyduck:

I know you're not a developer; so using buzz words and terminology that you don't understand in the pursuit of defending a game, while trying to give the appearance of knowing anything, is a waste of everyone's time.

Disagreeing with someone is fine, but argument for the sake of argument - when you have nothing worthy of note to add - is just noise.

It's amazing to me that you guys will argue - and look foolish doing it - just to defend a position because it's inconceivable that the "other" guy (especially Derek Smart), could possibly be right, or know more than you do.

You clearly didn't understand what I meant by this statement, and your comment (already addressed by JHow) proves it.

"The "stitching" thing is 100% factual and isn't even open to discussion because I am 100% correct. That's how it is being done, it's how to do it because it would be impossible to fit an entire world into memory. Why? Because it's not procedurally generated."

NOTHING you wrote makes ANY sense. NONE. The fact that you said "The 'entire world' doesn't need to fit into memory at the same time" is clear evidence that even though you agree with me that they have to stitch scenes together in order to give the illusion of expanse, you still chose to argue about it. If the "entire world doesn't need to fit into memory at the same time, please explain to us how exactly it is possible for them to build a world with the proposed scope seen in their starmap.

FYI "streaming in data" is completely irrelevant to this discussion because it's just a method of "loading" the data" in that you either stream it in chunks or you demand load it in one shot - which is where "load times" come from.

Also, the size of the scene/map bears no relevance to whether or not it is stitched or contiguous. They modified CE3 to give them larger scene/sizes. That's no marvel of engineering. They had the source code that allowed them to increase the scene sizes, and which they also modified the engine editor to support. But it still has nothing to do with the illusion of expanse. It's not like they built the entire world (as per the starmap) already and it's all one massive map; hence no stitching required.

In fact, right after I posted about this thread on FDev, one of the devs (Ben Parry who works with rendering tech only), chimed in. And as is the norm with CIG devs who simply opt for obfuscation rather than clarity - which is why backers theory-craft their way through dreams - he still wasn't clear until I pressed him. Here, start reading from this page (https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php/259596-The-Star-Citizen-Thread-v5/page1780). My first post is mid-way down the page, and Ben's posts start thereafter; and the discussion flows for 2-3 pages thereafter.

Agreed. But nobody does think that. That's a preposterous proposition. Each system will be 'stitched' via jump points, but inside each system is a single 'map' millions of km wide.

So what exactly are you arguing about then?

I don't have a 'developer contact'. I messaged a developer and they replied. I don't believe I am a clueless fool. Opinions on that will vary I'm sure. Que sera sera. Brian Sean doesn't need to disprove what you've stated in that video, he's just discussing what they've done. It's there to be played, right now, in 2.5. A CryEngine map, hundreds of thousands of km wide. In the engine that can only create 8x8 or so.

Brian's missive bears NO relevant to this discussion which is about "stitching" in order to give the illusion of expanse. You can't possibly be arguing that they've already built the entire starmap, that it is one contiguous map - so everything I stated is rubbish. Try not to change the subject. Stay focused.

A tier one engineer must have a long list of popular and critically acclaimed games to their name! Cool.  Let me go have a look at the absolute Metacritic scores for your back catalogue. Be right back. I could do with a new game to play.

That didn't take long, did it? This is the thing with you guys, you hate me so much that you find it inconceivable that I could possibly know more than you; let alone more than your dreamer.

The fact is that, degrees aside, I am vastly more qualified than Chris Roberts; and dare I say, every single one of his engineers struggling with this project; by the very fact that I've been built tech that they are still struggling with; and also built the sort of game they still can't build, even after all this time and money. Through the years, I have built various tech from scratch, while gaining a lot of experience doing so. That is an indisputable fact. You don't have to like it.

Granted none of you have a clue what a "Tier 1 Engineer" means in software development, let alone what the qualification for that is. But FYI, it means someone who has experience in various fields, while mastering in one or more; and who is technically experienced and qualified for a CTO position. That's why that position exists. The CTO is the lead for the company/project technologies and is the highest position in that sector. When a Tier 1 software engineer is in a technical engineering meeting with other engineers (programmers, data scientists, artists etc), there isn't a single subject that should be foreign to him, or which he doesn't have experience in. e.g. if an artist and programmer are discussing how to handle/implement PBR in a rendering pipeline, though that's not his job, the CTO should know precisely what they're talking about. When an AI engineer is talking about an FSM, pathfinding, RBFN, Hopfield or similar, and how it's used in the game, the CTO should have a working knowledge of what is being discussed. Now you get the idea.

As someone who has been in every facet of software development for over 30 years, be it AI (FYI several academic articles and university thesis have been written about the AI which I developed for BC3K. Yeah, Google it), graphics, data, art etc, I know everything there is to know about every single subject in the field; even if it doesn't pertain to game development proper.

Your infantile jab, is just that - infantile. If your weight of a person's accomplishments is based on third-party opinions, and by that admission isn't worthy of merit, that means a) you're shallow b) every single person of accomplishment - whether it be art, science, tech, movies etc - is somehow demoted and stripped of their knowledge and experience because the reception of their works, as it pertains to a system of metrics that is devoid of factual data, is subject to being rigged etc, is worthless. I'm sure all the scientists, engineers, actors etc all of whom have had some success and failures, are all worthless because somehow that's a credible metric according to you.

Jabs from people like you are meaningless to me. They always were. I know who I am; what my accomplishments are, what I have gained and lost from them. A Metacritic score for a game (or any creative work for that matter) bears no relevance - nor credibility - to the accomplishments or talents of the creator. Out here in the real world, success isn't a hard metric; especially as it pertains to what a "success" is. You look at a Metacritic score (at this point, I'm laughing) for my games, and somehow in your head, the technical and creative achievements, not to mention the financial gains (obviously to have a career that spans 30+ years, across several projects and millions in revenue has to count), are somehow of no consequence because "Oh, your game got a low score! har! har!".

Chris Roberts hasn't made a game in almost two decades; was booted off a high profile one for exactly the same reasons playing out here, has a string of horrid D movies; but somehow, I'm the failure because of metric scores. Yeah, alright then.

And the fact that, in the middle of an argument that you're cluelessly out-classed in, rather than making the case for your argument, you somehow decide to devolve to the lowest common denominator that you Shitizens on Reddit and RSI forums exist in; and which makes it OK for you to needlessly make personal attacks as a way to either shut down an argument, or to detract from a losing discussion and/or position.

I'm the better person. You don't have to accept or like it, but there it is, Monkeh. You're in my house now; and here (unlike Reddit or the RSI forums where you mobs tend to shout/vote people down when you don't agree with them), we're going to engage you in a manner that not only completely strips you of any semblance of "group think", but also puts you on a platform that serves to illustrate to you exactly where your "place" is; because clearly you've forgotten.

Tell me again, how much my arguments are without merit because of an artificial subjective metric which has no relevance to anything other than to convey your inferiority complex and ignorance.

I would particularly love to know how that score somehow takes away from the fact that, since day one, my technical missives about Star Citizen have not only been proven to be correct (to the extent that everyone is now parroting the "they chose the wrong engine" line which I was the first to point out back in July 2015 in my very first blog (http://www.dereksmart.org/2015/07/interstellar-citizens/)), but to this day, they remain undisputed with regards to what they have delivered 4-5 years and $134+ million later.

I would also love to know how that metric somehow comes into play in the discussion of how Star Citizen isn't - and never will be - game, let alone one with a cohesive world that isn't "stitched".
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: dsmart on November 25, 2016, 07:18:42 AM
Guys asks another guy if he's been an idiot to give him money, 2nd guys says no.

I think Derek Smart brings up some good points and a number of potential technical issues that the Star Citizen developers might be or have faced.

However....I would take his assertions of 100% certainty with a pinch of salt. CIG might have developed solutions to the issues he sees, or developed their StarEngine to address them or like FD does, might be using technical or mathematical tricks to work around the issues.

I personally think development of star citizen is going better than Derek Smart suggests...but also a lot worse than CIG are letting on.

Why yes of course that's a perfectly reasonable argument to make because we can only go by what we see and experience, based on what they have developed and/or delivered. At the end of the day, I know that I am 100% right - and that's a hill that I'm willing to die on. All we can do now is wait and see what happens; and whether or not people will accept the end results, instead of dancing around them with excuses. Not to mention that the very notion of an MVP has already proven me right, in that they can't build the game pitched. Aside from the fact that, even with 4.0 (which barely has 30% what was promised to backers) claiming to be coming out in Q4/17, isn't the complete game they promised.
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: dsmart on November 25, 2016, 07:23:02 AM
What can't be held in memory? Millions of kilometres of nothing with some POI markers and a few low LOD images of planets and a star? I think you're wrong. The 2.5 alpha which does exactly that, only over a smaller space, (which is still around five factors of ten larger than current maximum CryEngine map), thinks that you're wrong, Elite Dangerous, that does exactly that, thinks that you're wrong.

Source: Star Ctien alpha 2.5 and Elite Dangerous, both showing that it would, and does, fit in memory.

You're trying to tell me that the 2.0 SC alpha never happened. Well I'm sorry but it did.

I'm not quite sure what exactly you are trying to argueng
As I understand Derek Smarts argument, he is saying that the game cannot be "seamless"...that it is stitched together from a number of instances and zones. That it is not one big map...because having just one big map means having to devote server resourves to tracking each and every object within it.

That could be players...it could be ships...it could be planets and moons and stations and it could be every single asteroid in an asteroid belt.

It isn't just POIs that a server needs to keep track of...it would be every single object within the instance.

I would assume clever programming tricks could reduce this number to some degree, but one of those tricks would appear likely to be instances and zoning so that the load can be shared on the servers. And of so, then there would need to be some way to stitch these instances together...two of which Derek Smart outlined.

And we have evidence that CIG does uses instances as it creates dedicated orbit instances and battle instances...so it musr have a way to stitch these together into a whole.

Either that or its developed a revolutionary new system that does away with the need for instancing...in which case it can easily license that technology for additional funding.

So I'm not ecactly sure what point you are trying to make since Toberts own description of how SC works tallies pretty much with what I umderstand Derek Smart is saying

He knows quite well what I'm talking about, but with these guys, it is completely inconceivable that I could be right about anything. Their worst nightmare is not that Chris Roberts was wrong; it's that Derek Smart was right about anything.

ps: No, they haven't developed any such tech. If they had, it would be in the game by now, instead of them using tech demos in order to fool backers into giving them money. Think about it.
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: dsmart on November 25, 2016, 07:37:52 AM
As for Derek Smart...I think he is too caught up in this. I think he makes some very good points about development wrt Star Citizen. But I also think he can be his own worst enemy in this debate. Too certain he is correct. Too certain that if he can't do something, noone can and therefore CIG must be wrong.

I think Derek Smart is correct when he suggests CIG is doing worse than many suppose. That they are having problems. That they may even have funding issues.

But I don't think things are as bad as he is portraying.

That's the whole point of a "debate". It's not about being right or wrong; it's about discussing the merits of the topic, the nuances within, the issues that are intrinsic to the position being held in the debate, as well as putting forth an argument which, popular or not, serves to move the discussion forward with statements which are fuel for thought - regardless of merit.

I believe that, not only am I right in every single regard related to the state of the project and the fact that they simply cannot build this game, but also that I will be proven to be right. The fact that we're still having this debate, even as CIG continues to flail, alienate backers etc, proves that point, even as it moves the discourse forward.

But neither do I think things are going as well for CIG as they say. Their new sales seem to indicate a grab for as much money as they can get. That isn't indicative of a business rolling in cash. They've had numerous delays, they've split SQ42 off in a blatant attempt to create a new revenue stream, the demos they've shown have had issues, they've allowed expectations and hype to get out of hand, they've had poor communications with their backers, we still have seen next to nothing of SQ42 - worrisome for a game supposedly due to be released in 2017 - and so on.

All these are signs which most backers, caught up in Cognitive Dissonance and Sunk Cost Fallacy, refuse to reconcile, let alone acknowledge.

But i do believe they are developing the game they want...and I think they'll get the $150 million Derek Smart suggested it would take to realise their vision.

They are at $134 million as of now; at an average of $33.5 million per 4 years of funding. Which means that, without accounting for investor amounts, bank loans etc - which aren't in that crowd-funded chart, they've already blown past my estimated $150 million mark. And if you go back to that first July 2015 blog (http://www.dereksmart.org/2015/07/interstellar-citizens/) in which I came up with that number, this is specifically what I stated:

Quote
Without disrespect to anyone, I’m just going to say it: it is my opinion that, this game, as has been pitched, will never get made. Ever.

There isn’t a single publisher or developer on this planet who could build this game as pitched, let alone for anything less than $150 million.

The original vision which I backed in 2012? Yes, that was totally doable. This new vision? Not a chance.

The technical scope of this game surpasses GTAV, not to mention the likes of Halo.

Do you have any idea what those games cost to make and how long they took?

Do you know how many games which cost $50 million to make took almost five years to release? And they were nowhere in scope as Star Citizen?


This means that they still couldn't build the game with $150 million. And if you ignore investor and bank loan amounts, which we're not privy to, and instead just go straight to the crowd-funding chart (which sources have shown evidence that it's not accurate), it's easy to see that even if (LOL!!) they somehow manage to release 4.0 by end of 2017, if the yearly funding remains constant, they would be at around $165 million by end of 2017. And with a 4.0 build that's not even 30% of what was promised. Think about that for a minute.

Also, it's now the end of 2016, and the lies about 3.0 being in dev, coming end of the year etc, have already been made known. So if 2.6 goes live in Q1/2016, with 3.0 to follow mid-year, well, guess what, assuming that CIG survives 2017 intact, we're now talking about a 2018 time line for 4.0.
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: Kyrt on November 25, 2016, 07:52:30 AM
I would particularly love to know how that score somehow takes away from the fact that, since day one, my technical missives about Star Citizen have not only been proven to be correct (to the extent that everyone is now parroting the "they chose the wrong engine" line which I was the first to point out back in July 2015 in my very first blog (http://www.dereksmart.org/2015/07/interstellar-citizens/)), but to this day, they remain undisputed with regards to what they have delivered 4-5 years and $134+ million later.

I'm not sure "chose the wrong engine" would be entirely fair to CIG.

Given the budget at the time, developing a custom engine was probably beyond their reach, given the budget and self imposed timeline. So one had to be licensed.

Without knowing what criteria they were aiming for, I can't say with 100% certainty that the choice of CryEngine was a mistake.

If CIG had $130 mollion four hears ago, then they very likely would have developed their own engine....and likely saved themselves a lot of time and effort.

CryEngine was probably a suitable choice for what they were planning. But you and I and everyone else knows feature creep crept in.

As such, it can't really be said to have been a mistake. But it does look like it turned into one given the time effort and money pumped in to adapt it to support the vision they now want.

To their credit, it appears they have largely succeeded, albeit significant issues such as the NetCode still remain. And such adaptions would likely have been needed anyway, regardless of which engine they chose.

But I for one question first, whether an engine primarily designed and intended for single player FPS action was entirely suited for a space sim, even with a FPS component and secondly, whether the amount of changes they needed to make anyway means a custom engine would havf been a more viable choice.

But I ain't in the industry so I can't really comment. All I can say is that with hindsight, and IMI, CryEngine looks to have been the wrong choice.

But hindsight is 20/20.





Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: dsmart on November 25, 2016, 08:21:06 AM
I would particularly love to know how that score somehow takes away from the fact that, since day one, my technical missives about Star Citizen have not only been proven to be correct (to the extent that everyone is now parroting the "they chose the wrong engine" line which I was the first to point out back in July 2015 in my very first blog (http://www.dereksmart.org/2015/07/interstellar-citizens/)), but to this day, they remain undisputed with regards to what they have delivered 4-5 years and $134+ million later.

I'm not sure "chose the wrong engine" would be entirely fair to CIG.

Given the budget at the time, developing a custom engine was probably beyond their reach, given the budget and self imposed timeline. So one had to be licensed.

Without knowing what criteria they were aiming for, I can't say with 100% certainty that the choice of CryEngine was a mistake.

If CIG had $130 mollion four hears ago, then they very likely would have developed their own engine....and likely saved themselves a lot of time and effort.

CryEngine was probably a suitable choice for what they were planning. But you and I and everyone else knows feature creep crept in.

As such, it can't really be said to have been a mistake. But it does look like it turned into one given the time effort and money pumped in to adapt it to support the vision they now want.

To their credit, it appears they have largely succeeded, albeit significant issues such as the NetCode still remain. And such adaptions would likely have been needed anyway, regardless of which engine they chose.

But I for one question first, whether an engine primarily designed and intended for single player FPS action was entirely suited for a space sim, even with a FPS component and secondly, whether the amount of changes they needed to make anyway means a custom engine would havf been a more viable choice.

But I ain't in the industry so I can't really comment. All I can say is that with hindsight, and IMI, CryEngine looks to have been the wrong choice.

But hindsight is 20/20.

That's not the point here. The point - as I stated these past months - is that CE choice was perfectly fine for the smaller scope game they pitched on Kickstarter. Yes, they would still have to make certain modifications to CE3 to build parts of it. But it was after increasing the scope, that the engine core became completely out of scope. And that was the mistake that has contributed to the demise of the entire project.

And four years ago, they weren't asking for $130 million to build a game. They were asking for the $2m that it would take to build the game and for which they already took into account their CE3 license.

And I fail to see what they have "largely succeeded" at. Maybe I am missing something; so please explain it to me. For one thing, by all accounts, the netcode is the least of their problems. Even if they managed to resolve that - which it highly unlikely to give them an MMO - there are clearly a lot of other areas that are lacking; even as none of the promised game mechanics are even in yet.

Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: dsmart on November 25, 2016, 08:39:29 AM
Monkeh, you probably want to read this (https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php/259596-The-Star-Citizen-Thread-v5?p=4825525&viewfull=1#post4825525). Pay close attention to Ben's statement. For context, read this first (https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php/259596-The-Star-Citizen-Thread-v5?p=4825297&viewfull=1#post4825297).
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: Kyrt on November 25, 2016, 01:21:27 PM
And I fail to see what they have "largely succeeded" at. Maybe I am missing something; so please explain it to me. For one thing, by all accounts, the netcode is the least of their problems. Even if they managed to resolve that - which it highly unlikely to give them an MMO - there are clearly a lot of other areas that are lacking; even as none of the promised game mechanics are even in yet.

While there are still isdues to be resolved, the demos they have put out do show progress in development in many areas of the gameworld. They have flight and FPS and combat amd more so it appears to me that the basic structure of the engine is workable.

More  does need to be done of course, especially if they are to include the features promised and I'll admit I'm not overly impressed with what they've produced so far but this is still what they describe as an Alpha release.

Although tech demonstrators would IMO more accurately describe what has been publicly released.

The point is that their CryEngine is now doing a lot of what they want it to do. It thus appears to me that their changes have largely succeeded in giving them what they want. I am hopeful...skeptically so...that this will allow CIG to speed up development.

I am however still very much aware that we have not seen SQ42, that they still haven't finalised their flight model,  that they missed their 2.6 date, that 3.0 isn't going to be released this year and that a late 2017 release date for 4.0 is unlikely.

But I don't expect CIG to hold to their release dates anymore. And of course, there is a huge amount of work still to do. Fixing the netcode, implementing mechanics for the various roles, adding new dhips and systems and so on. A lot of work.

So it  may be that you are correct and that I am being overly optimistic in my reading of the interviews and statements, such as that provided by Kotaku.

But as I see it, it looks like a lot of work on the engine has been finished. More needs to be done of course, and I don't seriously expect any sort of release until about 2019 but it appears the foundations of the game are largely in place.

My opinion anyway
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: Mehlan on November 25, 2016, 01:45:36 PM
"While there are still isdues to be resolved, the demos they have put out do show progress in development in many areas of the gameworld. They have flight and FPS and combat amd more so it appears to me that the basic structure of the engine is workable."

 I'd offer/suggest... consider those 'demos' to be vaporware until such time as whatever they claim 'exists' in those 'demos' is actually patched to the live 'server'.     

  Consider the 'demos' of  Star Marine 2015 and where we are now, well over a year later.     


  Heck consider Arena Commander/DFM...   'delayed a couple months' which in reality turned out to be 5+
   It was delayed to produce a 'multiplayer experience' where people could fly and fight with their 'own 'ships'.
   What was released, was a single players vs Bots... and 2-3 months to 'open' multiplayer to all the backers.
      IF DFM was really so 'close' in december and really meant to be only a 'couple months', then why wasn't the 'staged mp access' mentioned @ that time?     

     Recall what we were 'told' about the SQ42-illfonic by CR vs what we found out in the Kotaku UK article.

   Reality, CIG & Chris have not been all that 'open' in this 'open development' of theirs.


   The only 'code' or functions that you can count on, are what exists on the live server.  The rest is just a carrot on a stick.

   


   
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: J How on November 25, 2016, 01:51:23 PM
What can't be held in memory? Millions of kilometres of nothing with some POI markers and a few low LOD images of planets and a star? I think you're wrong. The 2.5 alpha which does exactly that, only over a smaller space, (which is still around five factors of ten larger than current maximum CryEngine map), thinks that you're wrong, Elite Dangerous, that does exactly that, thinks that you're wrong.

Source: Star Ctien alpha 2.5 and Elite Dangerous, both showing that it would, and does, fit in memory.

You're trying to tell me that the 2.0 SC alpha never happened. Well I'm sorry but it did.

Elite Dangerous streams data, procedurally generates using triggers and some other tricks to minimise memory usage in the client. There are many objects in 3d space of any kind, references, pointers, players, bases, triggers all carry metadata and properties of that object which multiple the size of the map, along with the engine, AI, graphics, sound, input which all has to be held somewhere. It's merely not just a "map".

I can only speak as a cloud architect who works on MMOs and online games, whilst Derek's responses are a lot more direct, they are indeed factually correct.

You seem to think the Star Citizen engine can generate large maps, whilst they may have expanded limits of the maps it does come at a cost to both engine performance and efficiency. You may of course think I'm wrong of course, that is your choice.
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: Kyrt on November 26, 2016, 01:25:07 AM
I'd offer/suggest... consider those 'demos' to be vaporware until such time as whatever they claim 'exists' in those 'demos' is actually patched to the live 'server'.   

I do.

I am in the position where I hope the game is released, because I like the concept, because I like this style of game, because I like what Chris Roberts has promised and his vision.

My monetary investment in the game to date, however, is zero.

I am not 100% convinced that Star Citizen will ever launch. And they SHOULD have more than enough money to develop the game - again, I look at other similar games such as Elite and NMS and EVE to see what other have done in less time with less resources. In short, I don't need to contribute.

I have played the free weekends...frankly, I'm not impressed by the game play or animations, but this is apparently an Alpha release so I can live with it. I can hope that such aspects will be improved.
I have seen the tech demos. They look nice and give me an idea of what CIG are aiming towards. I don't know if they were scripted, freeform, created specifically for the cons or are decent representations of the game. But assuming they are decent representations - which I will barring evidence otherwise - they give me an idea at last of the type of game CIG are trying to develop and they show that CIG are continuing to develop and work towards that vision.

Having said that...I am not blind to the way CIG has been operating. I think their ships sales are a clever idea. They have a continuing stream of investment of about $3 million a month from a group of investors who are happy to hand over their money for no control, no share of the profits and the promise of an in game ship that CIG likely were going to develop anyway.

I have no complaint so long as such investors are happy with that ship instead of the usual RoI on such investments but I do think it slightly underhanded. I do see the problem in that it removes any incentive to actually finish and release the game and I think it can...maybe has...created an atmosphere where CIG are perhaps a little spendthrift with the cash they have received,

I am also not ignorant of the issues Derek Smart has brought up and while I am not a professional programmer, I believe I understand enough of what he is saying to agree with him, at least to a degree. But, as with CIG, I do not agree with him 100%. I do not think CIG are deliberately scamming their people, I do think they are working on the game, I do think there has been mismanagement and that lots of money has been wasted and that decisions which might have been reasonable at the time have proven themselves to be wrong several years later once feature creep arrived.

As I said before, I also think that his assertions of 100% certainty that he is right shouldn't be taken literally as I think it quite feasible for CIG developers to have solved issues in ways that he might not have anticipated and I think he can be his own worst enemy at times. Though I understand he is quite charming and pleasant in real life, he can be a bit abrasive online ;)

No offence meant.

I think Star Citizen has problems. But while I think Derek Smart is right about many of the issues he raises, I think he is exaggerating some of them.
And I also think that CIG are having more problems than they are letting on. In other words, I think the truth about Star Citizens development lies somewhere in the middle.
 
Now...we've seen flight and combat in AC. We've seen FPS. We've seen the social side. Granted - incomplete and less than impressive in many ways, but it at least hints that the technology CIG are implementing is viable.

Will this all result in a finished game? Eventually. If the funding holds up. This year has shown some signs of discontent even amongst the loyalists. But unless CIGs funding situation is dire - it might very well be as a rule of thumb projection by me suggests they might be burning through anything from $2m -$4.5m a month but bringing in only $3m (I don't know enough to make a more accurate guess so I have to settle for 'its plausible') - they should be able to last long enough to release something. Chris Roberts Minimum Viable Product.

I am not putting my life on hold for this game to be released.
I am not going to say it will be released.
I do not think it will be released soon and I think even SQ42 is not going to be out until late 2017 at the earliest. The main Star Citizen game will likely be at least 2 or 3 years after that.

And while I think Derek Smart is correct to say we won't get the game promised in the Kickstarter, CIG moved away from that vision towards their "Life Simulator" a long time ago.

I hope CIG can deliver their vision - but I do not believe they will. And they can't deliver the game they promised at Kickstarter because their vision much bigger since then.
But while I think there has been mismanagement and wasted money by CIG, I think it very possible that they will release a decent game. One that will be fun to play even if it isn't the epic Chris Roberts wants it to be. I hope that it will be close to his vision...but I suspect we'll see something closer to a Minimum Viable Product followed by patches which expand the game.

But yes - Derek Smart, alongside aspects such as the Kotaku report AND the problems and communication style of CIG have left me fairly certain the game is having a number of problems - technical and financial. I think the renewed and aggressive drive on sales is their way of fixing the financial problems, but they also are backed into a corner in that seeking out investors is something that Roberts won't want to do, given past experiences with games such as Freelancer but it would also anger backers as CIG supposedly don't need backers or investors - people who might want to know when they can expect a ROI. The technical problems...require time and effort by the developers. There probably isn't anything that can't be overcome, though I do question the viability of ships that require more crew than the instance limit as even with an improved Netcode I can't help but feel that will affect the number of ships per instance.

Will CIG release SQ42? I expect they will...in 2017. They likely need to secure another revenue stream
Will SQ42 be available on console? It'd be a good idea as they need to maximise return and console gamers represent an untapped income stream...albeit one burnt by NMS.
Will CIG release SC? If funding keeps up...I believe it will. I just think it'll take more money and time to deliver the product Robert wants and we can expect more delays. I would expect a MVP to be released late 2018 or more likely 2019, earliest.

But that is pure guesswork on my part. And it may very well be the games never come out, especially if the funding situation is worse than I suspect.
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: dsmart on November 26, 2016, 05:13:25 AM
That was a very good post. And all your points were well constructed.

While I don't share anyone's optimisms about the game, as an old school gamedev, I haven't seen any indication that they will ever ship a "game". To me, the whole dev process is like giving a lump of play dough to a child. You never know what they're going to mold. Though we haven't even seen any gameplay in SQ42, going by what has been shown of the PU, coupled with what they are working on, it's easy to see that they are focused on showing new things in order to continue winding up the whales who keep giving them money. And they've been doing this since 2014; then stepped up their game in 2016. e.g. A dev would ask why they're even focusing on planetary terrain tech, when - for a space combat game - they still haven't fleshed out any of the intrinsic gameplay mechanics, let alone the game world. And if they ever get to including a planet somewhere in Stanton, it's going to bring its own slew of bugs on top of what they already have - and that's going to slow down the dev of the game even more.

Needless to say, 2017 is going to be very interesting indeed.
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: somedude on November 26, 2016, 01:20:58 PM
Hmm, D.Smart u gotta admit that every sign of a SQ42 release is there atm. It will be buggy, it will be boring, it will be repetitive, but its comming. They'll release SQ42 within 1 system as u already said and call it a day. Then the shitstorm will begin.
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: dsmart on November 26, 2016, 03:15:13 PM
oh, I have no doubt that they will eventually release something of SQ42.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: Kyrt on November 26, 2016, 04:13:51 PM
Hmm, D.Smart u gotta admit that every sign of a SQ42 release is there atm. It will be buggy, it will be boring, it will be repetitive, but its comming. They'll release SQ42 within 1 system as u already said and call it a day. Then the shitstorm will begin.

I don't know what will happen with S42.

They say it needs polishing, and is "almost" ready.
However...I haven't seen any marketing for it, and they are still playing around with the flight model. I assume it would be using the same system as SC goven the linkage and desireability of cutting costs.

I also think it likely they need to release it soon so as to reassure backers and to generate a new revenus stream. But by the same token, that means S42 really needs to be good and deliver what has been promised. It'd almost certainly be better to gave no release than a bad release
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: somedude on November 26, 2016, 04:21:13 PM
Hmm, D.Smart u gotta admit that every sign of a SQ42 release is there atm. It will be buggy, it will be boring, it will be repetitive, but its comming. They'll release SQ42 within 1 system as u already said and call it a day. Then the shitstorm will begin.

I don't know what will happen with S42.

They say it needs polishing, and is "almost" ready.
However...I haven't seen any marketing for it, and they are still playing around with the flight model. I assume it would be using the same system as SC goven the linkage and desireability of cutting costs.

I also think it likely they need to release it soon so as to reassure backers and to generate a new revenus stream. But by the same token, that means S42 really needs to be good and deliver what has been promised. It'd almost certainly be better to gave no release than a bad release

When the funds are depleted they'll have no choice. I am 100% confidend they'll release SQ42 and i am 90% confidend it will suck.
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: ConfusedMonkeh on November 26, 2016, 04:36:26 PM
Monkeh, you probably want to read this (https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php/259596-The-Star-Citizen-Thread-v5?p=4825525&viewfull=1#post4825525). Pay close attention to Ben's statement. For context, read this first (https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php/259596-The-Star-Citizen-Thread-v5?p=4825297&viewfull=1#post4825297).
Quote from: dsmart
It's amazing to me that you guys will argue - and look foolish doing it - just to defend a position because it's inconceivable that the "other" guy (especially Derek Smart), could possibly be right, or know more than you do.

This not my MO. I like to discuss and I like to debate. Whatever you do, in whatever walk of life, someone, somewhere, will think you look foolish. That doesn't concern me. I'm sensible enough to know when other people know more about a subject than I do, that happens a lot. Not really relevant though.

Quote from: dsmart
NOTHING you wrote makes ANY sense. NONE.

It does. Maybe we're arguing different things. Try again further down there. I'm only talking about the 2.5 alpha Crusader map. Nothing about the Starmap has any relevance to any point I've been making.

Quote from: dsmart
So what exactly are you arguing about then?

I'm arguing about the 2.5 Crusader map being a true, single scene, no loading screens via quantum drive, hundreds of thousands of km wide CryEngine map and your claims that CIG have 'cheated' by stitching together smaller scenes via quantum drive loading screens.

Quote from: dsmart
Brian's missive bears NO relevant to this discussion
The guy's name is Sean. It's in the title of the video.

Quote from: dsmart
Quote from: ConfusedMonkeh
It's there to be played, right now, in 2.5. A CryEngine map, hundreds of thousands of km wide. In the engine that can only create 8x8 or so.

You can't possibly be arguing that they've already built the entire starmap, that it is one contiguous map - so everything I stated is rubbish. Try not to change the subject. Stay focused.

How does my talking about a 'A CryEngine map, hundreds of thousands of km wide' indicate I'm arguing 'they've already built the entire starmap'? How does that make any sense at all? Come on man, please stay focused.

All I've ever been talking about is what is currently available to play, right now, in the 2.5 Crusader map. An approx, one third of a whole system, at least, hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of kilometres wide. I'm not nerd enough to know exact numbers. You are the one who mentioned the Starmap, which has absolutely no relevance to the conversation we've been having regarding your documented statements proclaiming CIG have 'faked' the large world, 64 bit *techno babble* Crusader map, that allows CryEngine to have a single map of that kind of size. Even a factor of ten larger again, should they so desire.

You've said they are 'cheating' and stitching together 32 bit *techno babble* scenes via quantum drive loading screens.

You are the one who isn't staying focused with all your tubthumping declarations of superiority and mentions of the irrelevant Starmap. We've been discussing your claims CIG haven't created a way to give players millions of square kilometres of CryEngine to fly spaceships in and have, in fact, been lying about it whilst stitching together individual scenes via quantum drive loading screens.

Quote from: dsmart
In fact, there is a known backer (Monkeh), right now in the thread I linked above, having trouble understanding why it is that in QD, there is a set transition path from which you can't exit; and which requires a committed target end-point.

This comment on the Frontier forums (https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php/259596-The-Star-Citizen-Thread-v5?p=4825525&viewfull=1#post4825525) shows exactly how disassociated you are from the reality of the 2.5 alpha. It's wrong. Very wrong.

Quantum drive propulsion absolutely, emphatically and demonstrably, does not require a 'commited target end-point'. You can aim anywhere, empty space or point of interest, initiate the quantum drive and come out of it at any time and any point. At any point within the HUGE, large world, 64bit *techno babble*, CryEngine, single scene, no loading screens, no stitching of scenes, map, with only travel and the loading of objects as you approach them.

All I've talked about is what's available right now, in the 2.5 alpha. Please, stay focused.

Have a look at this video, where a player quantum drives away from Port Olisar, in a random direction, for a random length of time, (which turns out to be around twenty six thousand kilometres), turns around, and seamlessly travels back to port with the 1000 m/s cruise mode. No loading screens. No quantum drive. No stitching. No scenes to stitch. Just a ridiculously large map with points of interest that load in on approach, and the freedom to fly wherever you like. It's all there. Emphatic proof that you're wrong. Undeniable.


If you're right and we can only QD to a 'a committed target end-point' and they are stitching 32 bit scenes together, via quantum drive loading screens, to create the illusion of a 'large world' map, can you please explain how that video is possible. Then, can you show me any other example of any other CryEngine game with a similar demonstration of world expanse?

Quote from: dsmart
You don't have to accept or like it, but there it is, Monkeh. You're in my house now; and here (unlike Reddit or the RSI forums where you mobs tend to shout/vote people down when you don't agree with them), we're going to engage you in a manner that not only completely strips you of any semblance of "group think", but also puts you on a platform that serves to illustrate to you exactly where your "place" is; because clearly you've forgotten.

I haven't forgotten anything. I came here on my own free will. I engaged in discourse. I don't subscribe to 'group think'. Not my way at all. Do you not want reasonable discourse with opposing views on your forum? I don't have an online footprint to speak of. I'm not here for internet fame or upvotes on reddit. Just having a chat.

Quote from: dsmart
Your infantile jab, is just that - infantile.
*Snipped-Calm down dear*

Oh come one, this is the internet. My effort at flame was feeble at best. Proclaiming I hate you off the back of that little jibe is a little explosive wouldn't you say? What ever happened to the Derek who loved a bit of banter and has a great sense of humour?
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: dsmart on November 26, 2016, 05:26:39 PM
*snip*


This comment on the Frontier forums (https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php/259596-The-Star-Citizen-Thread-v5?p=4825525&viewfull=1#post4825525) shows exactly how disassociated you are from the reality of the 2.5 alpha. It's wrong. Very wrong.

Quantum drive propulsion absolutely, emphatically and demonstrably, does not require a 'commited target end-point'. You can aim anywhere, empty space or point of interest, initiate the quantum drive and come out of it at any time and any point. At any point within the HUGE, large world, 64bit *techno babble*, CryEngine, single scene, no loading screens, no stitching of scenes, map, with only travel and the loading of objects as you approach them.

All I've talked about is what's available right now, in the 2.5 alpha. Please, stay focused.

That comment just clearly shows that you guys keep theory-crafting shit that even the devs haven't uttered, let alone implemented.

And you don't know what a "target end point" means. Because if you did, you'd immediately understand why you are - again - pissing up a tree while making circular arguments.

Quote
If you're right and we can only QD to a 'a committed target end-point' and they are stitching 32 bit scenes together, via quantum drive loading screens, to create the illusion of a 'large world' map, can you please explain how that video is possible. Then, can you show me any other example of any other CryEngine game with a similar demonstration of world expanse?

Go back and read everything I've written, as I'm simply not going to repeat it. Also, try reading Ben's comments (his responses to me here (https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php/259596-The-Star-Citizen-Thread-v5?p=4825364&viewfull=1#post4825364) and here (https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php/259596-The-Star-Citizen-Thread-v5?p=4821855&viewfull=1#post4821855)) while you're at it.

And he's a graphics programmer. You on the other hand are making stuff up even though you have no clue how it's actually implemented - or why. All you're doing is what you guys do: theory-craft, due to the fact that CIG has a long-standing habit of obfuscating the simplest of things, thus leaving backers to theory-craft and play guessing games.

Bonus: See where Ben mentions (https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php/259596-The-Star-Citizen-Thread-v5?p=4827434&viewfull=1#post4827434) the target end point issue I pointed out?


"The thing where you pick a specific target point is a design decision, I think. But to be totally clear, your destination point is just some coordinates (in 64 bit, yes) you just move over there really fast. I can't disprove this idea that there's a new "scene" or whatever, with words, how could I? Sufficiently advanced fakery is indistinguishable from just doing the thing. But really complicated fakery would have been exciting and AtV would have just done a show about that instead."


Quote
Oh come one, this is the internet. My effort at flame was feeble at best. Proclaiming I hate you off the back of that little jibe is a little explosive wouldn't you say? What ever happened to the Derek who loved a bit of banter and has a great sense of humour?

OK I grant you that. However, you have to admit that the hostilities between both sides (especially with those we've fondly dubbed Shitizens) of this discourse, is at an all-time high. So naturally everyone has a "shoot first, ask questions later" attitude.

This is not Reddit. All are welcome here, as long as they follow the posted rules (http://www.dereksmart.com/forum/index.php?topic=23.0), and engage in good faith discourse; because Strawman and circular arguments aren't going to cut it. We're not going to argue just for the sake of arguing. Solid points have to be made. And those points can then get debated and discussed based on merit. That's the key to meaningful discourse, without all of the baggage of useless noise (we have Reddit for that).
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: Kyrt on November 27, 2016, 01:21:09 AM
I'm arguing about the 2.5 Crusader map being a true, single scene, no loading screens via quantum drive, hundreds of thousands of km wide CryEngine map and your claims that CIG have 'cheated' by stitching together smaller scenes via quantum drive loading screens.

As I understand what Derek Smart is saying, "stitching" - as he calls it - doesn't necessarily refer to loading screens. It's simply his shorthand to transition from one "scene" to another. From his S1 to his S2.

He has already mentioned streaming the data to the client as one way of doing this. As I understand it, Elite Dangerous takes a similar approach as a way to minimise the workload on the client.

So - within your CryEngine map that is hundreds of thousands of km wide, there might be millions (well, thousands) of objects, NPCs and PCs which are loaded in only as the player needs them. That also seem to be what Ben Parry is referring to when he says "Seamless loading of the stuff in the world is totall

Stitching occurs - but it occurs within the map you are talking of. Whether it is loading in new assets, loading in a players crossing your view or generating a battle instance

Quote from: ConfusedMonkeh
It's there to be played, right now, in 2.5. A CryEngine map, hundreds of thousands of km wide. In the engine that can only create 8x8 or so.

No - they modified the engine. Now it can create bigger maps. That upgrade needed to be done regardless of the engine, but given the apparent work involved in that upgrade I still wonder if moving to a custom engine, especially given their additional funding and feature creep, might not have been a better idea. I understand the desire not to throw work away - but CIG did just that when they cancelled Ilfonics Star Marine.

Quote
which has absolutely no relevance to the conversation we've been having regarding your documented statements proclaiming CIG have 'faked' the large world, 64 bit *techno babble* Crusader map, that allows CryEngine to have a single map of that kind of size. Even a factor of ten larger again, should they so desire.

I think the issue is that having a single map for the system doesn't mean stitching isn't happening.  Also...if CryEngine is only capable of rendering a "third of the system" or has a map size of "hundreds of thousands of km" then the game WILL need to stitch such maps together for the full system. We're talking about a need to cover not hundreds of thousands of km...but BILLIONS of km. A map of SOL would need to be about 20 Billion km wide for example. OF course, I don't know what sort of scale CIG will eventually use but I did find:

"Just to give you an idea," Roberts said, fumbling for a way to communicate the sheer massive size of the upcoming release, "the playable area on the large world map that we're currently using is one million kilometers by one million kilometers by 200 kilometers high."

(Although it turns out the area is actually 400,000km high)

"I do realize that a full solar system is much bigger than a million kilometers wide," Roberts said. "Though on some level we will do some compression of play spaces because you don't want to be even at point-two speed of light you don't want to be sitting there for 3 hours. You want quantum travel.

Now - that is just the area around Crusader.....but a map size that small means that even within a single system many such maps will be needed.

And we have "SC's engine suppports maps up to 1,000,000,000 by 1,000,000,000 by 500,000 km."

So - the engine would allow seamless travel within the map, but even then, there will be transitions as objects and instances are loaded in. But there will also be transitions to different maps as players travel to different planets within the system.

Quote
We've been discussing your claims CIG haven't created a way to give players millions of square kilometres of CryEngine to fly spaceships in and have, in fact, been lying about it whilst stitching together individual scenes via quantum drive loading screens.

Sorry to say this - but at this point in time, Derek Smarts argument appears to be correct. Maybe not in the specifics, but at least in the broad strokes

Quote
Have a look at this video, where a player quantum drives away from Port Olisar, in a random direction, for a random length of time, (which turns out to be around twenty six thousand kilometres), turns around, and seamlessly travels back to port with the 1000 m/s cruise mode. No loading screens. No quantum drive. No stitching. No scenes to stitch. Just a ridiculously large map with points of interest that load in on approach, and the freedom to fly wherever you like. It's all there. Emphatic proof that you're wrong. Undeniable.

You were expecting a loading screen? Seamless travel doesn't indicate a lack of stitching.

Quote
If you're right and we can only QD to a 'a committed target end-point' and they are stitching 32 bit scenes together, via quantum drive loading screens, to create the illusion of a 'large world' map, can you please explain how that video is possible.

I would assume that if the player had gone beyond the boundary of his world map, that data would be streamed in as needed, allowing the map to be generated before he accesses it and enabling a smooth handover. However...the player appears to have only travelled 26000km and that is within the map boundaries. There might have been a transition to the Orbit Instance at the end but I couldn't say if that happened or not.

The point is - I don't see why your idea of "seamless" negates Derek Smarts assertion that Star Citizen requires maps and instances and zones to be stitched together even within a system. CIG has already stated it will be using instances and zones and has provided us the size of the player area - a size which almost certainly requires stitching to map an entire system, even if CIG compresses it.

Now, I suppose CIG and Chris Roberts could be wrong about he size of the map, or hiding it. But, at least from a real life perspective, it isn't ten times too small for a system map, it is 10 thousand times too small. What this shows is not that there is seamless travel within a system...as you seem to mean it anyway...but seamless travel within a planets orbital space. I would expect the transition between maps to be seamless as far as the player is concerned regardless. But that seamless experience does not mean there isn't some type of stitching taking place in the background.

And being blunt - I don't think it matters. So long as the player isn't aware of such stitching, why care how it happens? Success in this will be measured by how little players mention it but Elite and other games already show us such a seamless system is possible.

Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: dsmart on November 27, 2016, 06:45:58 AM
And being blunt - I don't think it matters. So long as the player isn't aware of such stitching, why care how it happens? Success in this will be measured by how little players mention it but Elite and other games already show us such a seamless system is possible.

And there it is. Even though this has been echoed time and time again, in some form or another, they're still arguing. Why? Heck, look no further than Ben Parry's (though he is only a rendering programmer, he has an idea of these things) own recent statements previously quoted.

And that's part of the arguing for arguing sake; as is there is no rhyme, reason or good faith in it because there is nothing that you can you can say to these guys to make them agree to, or which goes against either what CIG tells (or doesn't) them or what they believe. This despite the fact that, by all accounts, CIG has zero credibility when it comes to this project, what they're doing, how etc.

The hilarious thing is that even Elite - which now has the largest game world in existence - is using tricks to stitch regions together in order to give the illusion of expanse.

Even when I illustrate that it absolutely needs to be done, and for various reasons - even using a video of my own Universal Combat game which, until ED, had the largest game world in gaming, they still ignore it.

And even so, in my BC/UC games, if you want to travel long distances without wasting time, you can jump from point A to point B within S1 using the available jump anomaly (jump gate) within S1. And that uses a hyperjump (same as Star Citizen's QD) sequence though you are actually travelling through space, not cheating (via stitching areas within S1 or cutscenes). Which is why you can drop out of hyperdrive at any time and you will be in the same space.

In that video @ 8:34, you can see the region scene for the Earth "space" region, and all the elements (including the planet) within it. And from there you can see other AI entities travelling through the region; some in normal space, others in hyperspace. And even though there are edges (the map is square) used to show the scene extents, if you go off the edge, you are still in the game world, but in "null" space, which goes on to infinity, but which has a jump gate to bring you back into "normal" space.

And as shown in my previous post (http://www.dereksmart.com/forum/index.php?topic=9.msg289#msg289), the Earth space region is connected to other nearby regions (e.g. Mars) via jump gates. And since the game world is all data driven, the whole thing is loaded when you start the game. Which is why there are no loading screens - at all. So, going from Earth (R1) to Mars (R2) via a jump gate, is instantaneous. Going from one nearby system e.g. Sol (S1) to another e.g. Alpha Centauri (S2) via Pluto - also instantaneous - uses a wormhole due to the greater distance. Again, no cutscene, no load time delay - because it's already in memory.

This color (see B&W version (http://3000ad.com/downloads/ucce30/GAME_GALAXY_MAP_STD.JPG) also) map which gives you all the jump links, shows how the enter game galaxy is constructed - with no stitching required. You can see the jump gate lines (Yellow) connecting all the regions (R)

(http://3000ad.com/downloads/ucce30/GAME_GALAXY_MAP_LINKS.JPG)

Excerpt from Section 4.1 of the UCCE 2.x and 3.x (both currently on Steam; so anyone can go try it themselves) game manual (http://www.3000ad.com/downloads/ucce30/GAME_MANUAL.PDF):


4.1   NAVITRON

All astrogation and long distance navigation route plotting are done here.

The galaxy is divided into four quadrants which are linked via jump anomalies known as jump gates, wormholes and fluxfields.  Each quadrant contains a number of starsystems which are further divided into four regions named TERRAN, CREDIAN, GAMMULAN, SYRION.

When activated, the section of the galaxy where you are currently located as well as the currently programmed route destinations are displayed.

You can scroll the map by using the arrow keys or you can right-click anywhere in the display, and while still holding down the button, drag the mouse slowly in the desired scroll direction and the auto-scroll will activate. Once you find the desired location, release the mouse button.

INTRA-STELLAR COURSE PLOTTING

To plot a course to another space region, click on the desired starsystem from the map display to program it into the ship’s auto-navigation system. The name of the region you have selected and the starsystem in which it is located will then be displayed.  Now logoff. You will notice that the WTS tab of the NID is now displayed and indicates all the programmed waypoints. To fly to the destination, activate the autopilot.

During the transition, if you wish to temporarily cancel, just deactivate the autopilot. Later, you can reactivate it and it will resume the waypoints. If you wish to cancel the transition and clear all programmed waypoints, click on the WTS tab and select the CLEAR NAVIGATION ROUTE option. You can also use SHIFT+X keys.

If the main computer is damaged or destroyed, this system will not function. Similarly, if the NAVITRON computer is 100% functional and the main computer is destroyed, NAVITRON will not function.

Select LOGOFF from the drop-down menu or press the ESCAPE key to exit.

GALACTIC CARTOGRAPHY

Starsystems are linked by wormholes and in some cases by flux fields. In order to travel from a region within a starsystem to another region within another starsystem, you have to locate a region with a wormhole which will provide the link to the destination.
For example, you can only go from the Sol system to Alpha Centauri via a wormhole located in the Pluto region in Sol.

The regions within the starsystems are linked via jump gates; therefore, you can jump from Earth to Pluto region using a jump gate and from Pluto to the Centris region in the Alpha Centauri starsystem using a wormhole.

JUMP ANOMALIES

JUMP GATES

Due to the vast expanse of the galaxy, advanced technology was used to create jump gates.  These transport the ship through hyperspace to emerge at the other end of the jump gate.  These devices are reasonably safe to use and have only one entry point and one exit point.  Jump gate links are displayed as connecting blue lines. 
If you call up the Sol system map, you will notice that the Saturn region is linked to the Earth region by a jump gate.

FLUX FIELDS

Flux fields are natural phenomenon that effectively function as jump gates but some have multiple entry and exit points.  Once you enter a flux field you have no way of knowing where your ship will emerge.  Flux fields are displayed as connecting yellow lines extending from the planetary region to the boundaries of the system map.  This means that the exit point is outside the currently displayed system.  If you call up the Sol system map, you will see a flux field originating in Mars, another in Jupiter and a third in Mercury.  Flux fields can have one or more exit points that link several regions.  In a flux field, the ship takes no damage and will emerge safely.  The entry point of a flux field includes the originating point itself.  This means that sometimes it would seem that entering a flux field did not work.  It may have simply deposited you back at the point at which you entered.  Some flux fields have end points in black holes that make them dangerous.  Flux fields can link both regions and starsystems making it possible to hop across the entire galaxy.  For example, the flux field in Sygan (Barnard's Star) will take you across the galaxy to Majoris (Alpha Majora).

WORMHOLES

These anomalies are natural phenomenon that exist in various parts of the galaxy.  Wormholes are the gateway to other star systems within the galaxy.  They are highly unstable and will likely cause some damage to a ship as it passes through.  Wormholes only have a single entry and exit point and are displayed as connecting red lines.  Unlike flux fields, you can always tell from what system a wormhole originates.  This is displayed at the end of the wormhole line.  If you call up the Sol system map you will see a wormhole originating from the Jupiter region and another from the Pluto region.  The names at the end of the wormhole lines indicate that one connects to Alpha Centauri and the other in Sirius.  Since you know that wormholes always connect star systems together, you can deduce that those two wormholes link the Sol system to the Sirius and Alpha Centauri systems.  The wormhole paths are shown as Grey lines on the full screen galactic map linking the starsystems. 


There is no way on this God's Earth that Star Citizen can - or will be able to - do this. Especially not with any custom version of CE 3.x. Just look at their starmap (https://robertsspaceindustries.com/starmap/) compared to the one in UC. Touting 64-Bit positioning or 64-Bit sized maps, is irrelevant in this context because it doesn't matter how big it is, the key is to give the gamer the illusion of expanse by using a variety of tricks (some better than others) due to the limitations of current tech. Not to mention the fact that comparing the SC world to the one in BC/UC, may as well be comparing a football field (BC/UC) to a basketball court (SC).

The most recent hilarity of this sort of nonsense, is some of them saw in a recent AtV, an artist manipulating the Sun in the editor. Right away, these clowns start theory-crafting all manner of astronomical rubbish, though it's just a light source attached to a 3D object within the scene; allowing it to be manipulated. Meanwhile, they still can't figure out why the rings on Port Olisar, let alone the texture decal, can't work right. But yeah, they're going to be modeling actual celestial objects; instead of just cheating like we all do. It's amazing to me. Then again, these are the guys buying JPEGs for thousands of dollars for a game which, by all accounts, has very little chance of being completed.
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: J How on November 27, 2016, 08:02:37 AM
As I understand what Derek Smart is saying, "stitching" - as he calls it - doesn't necessarily refer to loading screens. It's simply his shorthand to transition from one "scene" to another. From his S1 to his S2.

He has already mentioned streaming the data to the client as one way of doing this. As I understand it, Elite Dangerous takes a similar approach as a way to minimise the workload on the client.

So - within your CryEngine map that is hundreds of thousands of km wide, there might be millions (well, thousands) of objects, NPCs and PCs which are loaded in only as the player needs them. That also seem to be what Ben Parry is referring to when he says "Seamless loading of the stuff in the world is totall

Stitching occurs - but it occurs within the map you are talking of. Whether it is loading in new assets, loading in a players crossing your view or generating a battle instance

I think the issue is that having a single map for the system doesn't mean stitching isn't happening.  Also...if CryEngine is only capable of rendering a "third of the system" or has a map size of "hundreds of thousands of km" then the game WILL need to stitch such maps together for the full system. We're talking about a need to cover not hundreds of thousands of km...but BILLIONS of km. A map of SOL would need to be about 20 Billion km wide for example. OF course, I don't know what sort of scale CIG will eventually use but I did find:

"Just to give you an idea," Roberts said, fumbling for a way to communicate the sheer massive size of the upcoming release, "the playable area on the large world map that we're currently using is one million kilometers by one million kilometers by 200 kilometers high."

(Although it turns out the area is actually 400,000km high)

"I do realize that a full solar system is much bigger than a million kilometers wide," Roberts said. "Though on some level we will do some compression of play spaces because you don't want to be even at point-two speed of light you don't want to be sitting there for 3 hours. You want quantum travel.

Now - that is just the area around Crusader.....but a map size that small means that even within a single system many such maps will be needed.

And we have "SC's engine suppports maps up to 1,000,000,000 by 1,000,000,000 by 500,000 km."

So - the engine would allow seamless travel within the map, but even then, there will be transitions as objects and instances are loaded in. But there will also be transitions to different maps as players travel to different planets within the system.

Sorry to say this - but at this point in time, Derek Smarts argument appears to be correct. Maybe not in the specifics, but at least in the broad strokes

You were expecting a loading screen? Seamless travel doesn't indicate a lack of stitching.

I would assume that if the player had gone beyond the boundary of his world map, that data would be streamed in as needed, allowing the map to be generated before he accesses it and enabling a smooth handover. However...the player appears to have only travelled 26000km and that is within the map boundaries. There might have been a transition to the Orbit Instance at the end but I couldn't say if that happened or not.

The point is - I don't see why your idea of "seamless" negates Derek Smarts assertion that Star Citizen requires maps and instances and zones to be stitched together even within a system. CIG has already stated it will be using instances and zones and has provided us the size of the player area - a size which almost certainly requires stitching to map an entire system, even if CIG compresses it.

Now, I suppose CIG and Chris Roberts could be wrong about he size of the map, or hiding it. But, at least from a real life perspective, it isn't ten times too small for a system map, it is 10 thousand times too small. What this shows is not that there is seamless travel within a system...as you seem to mean it anyway...but seamless travel within a planets orbital space. I would expect the transition between maps to be seamless as far as the player is concerned regardless. But that seamless experience does not mean there isn't some type of stitching taking place in the background.

You are understanding this which is great. Technically correct, the best kind of correct. Nail hit head.

Put simply, the dynamics of streaming data to clients from servers always come at a cost to the engine, whether that be networking latency or stress applied to the client or the server being overloaded. Too large and it takes a larger amount of data to populate, too small and you are sending chunks of data more quickly unless you have the client procedurally generate data which comes with it's own drawbacks.

It's a very tough balancing act which is why it takes several iterations to get it right, which is why it's best to share knowledge on this to other teams so they are all signing from the same hymn sheet. Practically every game or engine goes through reiteration cycle of determining what way works best or trying to work out what the most efficient way to achieve the goals they have in mind.

Star Citizen is different because of the massive scope creep that it has went through and it's never really had the chance to mature code wise. There is a multitude of changes to their customised engine (frankenengine / Star Engine), it's never really had a chance to keep up with the scope. Networking wise this is very bad considering it's stage in development, you can't just decide one day the networking stack built into the engine is not working and to "refactor" (really hate when CIG use that word). Touching lower level networking code when you have already built parts of the game around it leads to breakage, bugs, even potentially code conflicts which is why it's usually defined at an early planning stage. I personally dread to think what the code looks like or how much technical debt the project has.

How does this relate to the above? Basically the larger the networking components are changed or altered, the longer it will take to fix. More underlying network / engine changes = more breakage.

The tougher question is whether or not the technical debt is that severe that when they say "refactor netcode" or "work on netcode" if they really mean stripping it out and starting again at this phase? As mentioned earlier changing the core engine or network code leads to breakage, it's not unheard of that at some point a project will go through this cycle but it ALWAYS takes a lot longer.

Personally I don't see this as an overnight quickfix or even an intensive three month sprint, they are working on a largely bespoke customised earlier version of cryEngine which has had large code changes, more iterations than you can shake a stick at and suffered from massive scope creep as mentioned earlier.

With this all in mind how would CIG salvage this? I can only give the idea that in an ideal scenario that all the promises are scaled back to focus on the core mechanics only without the stretch goals, release a code only release of the engine and get less people working on the core and focus on what they really want the end result to look like. It's completely fine to have a "vision" but if you constantly change the "vision" you're effectively negating the code already written because it wasn't designed for the updated "vision".

Focus equals quality. The more elements, features, requirements you add the weaker the source.
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: Kyrt on November 27, 2016, 08:50:20 AM
You are understanding this which is great. Technically correct, the best kind of correct. Nail hit head.

That's good. I think

Quote
The tougher question is whether or not the technical debt is that severe that when they say "refactor netcode" or "work on netcode" if they really mean stripping it out and starting again at this phase? As mentioned earlier changing the core engine or network code leads to breakage, it's not unheard of that at some point a project will go through this cycle but it ALWAYS takes a lot longer.

Personally I don't see this as an overnight quickfix or even an intensive three month sprint, they are working on a largely bespoke customised earlier version of cryEngine which has had large code changes, more iterations than you can shake a stick at and suffered from massive scope creep as mentioned earlier.

That comment makes me wonder about how they will be doing instancing wrt ship or player limits. I've seen comments that suggest they are looking for up to 200 players in an instance. Indeed, it appears some of their ships require more crew than the current instances can currently support....though I have no first hand knowledge of that.

I know that the current netcode is subpar... unsurprising as CE3 wasn't designed for the scale being sought...and that they are working to improve it for release in 3.0. But your analysis here makes it sound like this will be  major undertaking for CIG.
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: Scruffpuff on November 27, 2016, 09:16:20 AM
I know that the current netcode is subpar... unsurprising as CE3 wasn't designed for the scale being sought...and that they are working to improve it for release in 3.0. But your analysis here makes it sound like this will be  major undertaking for CIG.

It's more than a major undertaking.  I'm going to simplify with an analogy.

Let's say you're asked to make a sandcastle - one story high.  So you go to the beach and make a small sandcastle.

Now the boss comes around and says "I've changed my mind, make it two stories high."  So you manage the nearly impossible feat of making a two-story sandcastle.  It's inherently unstable, but if you don't poke it too much, it'll stay up.  Mostly.

Now the boss comes around again and says he's got a bigger vision - make it 20 stories high.  Reality is not his field, he just reiterates that he's the boss, you're the expert, make it work or you're incompetent.

Now you're in some shit.  Not because the vision is inherently flawed, but because you can't make a 20-story sandcastle due to the construction material being inadequate and unstable for use beyond its current capacity.  You have some options - you could mix the sand with another material to make it more like concrete.  You could change the location and build it out of stronger materials, like wood, or steel.  All of these are workable, but they require starting the project over again.

Unfortunately, your boss has already invited people to move into the 2-story sandcastle, and he's promised that what they're seeing is what the finished product will be, only BETTER.  You have to make it grow to 20 stories without damaging the parts that are already there, because then it will look to the people who are living there that progress is going backwards, and we can't have that, can we?  They might lose faith.  So you are now faced with the task of building an impossible building on an unstable foundation without the appearance of backward progress or the revelation that the original design was a mistake, because that would discourage people from paying for this prime, sandy real estate.  Get to it, expert!

This is what it's like not just for the netcode, but the entire project.  The very foundation is deeply flawed for what the project grew to be.  It could have supported the original vision.  It can't support the new one.  "Working on it" won't work, for the reasons I described above - it needs to be scrapped and redone.  But for that to happen, the PTU as it stands needs to be replaced completely.

The best-case scenario here is that CIG is working on a completely new, parallel build, which they will deploy as yet another 30 GB "patch" which will actually be a complete rewrite of everything from the ground up.  Backers won't know because they'll just call it 2.x or 3.x giving the illusion of constant iterative progress.  Of course that's nonsense, since many project in the early stages have things like that happen, but when you're relying on appearance alone for your income, you can actually shoot yourself in the foot if people feel you're failing at something.

CIG always brags about how their crowdfunding model frees them from the reins of publishers and allows them to do what they want, but it's actually the opposite.  A publisher can choose to scrap some or all of a project and start over, doing it better.  CIG does not have that freedom - they can't show weakness.  Everything they show has to make it appear as if things are going great, or the money dries up.  The constrains their creativity, their technical ability, and their overall agility to respond to problems as they arise.

They're locked into their mistakes.

TL;DR - you can't fix something that's unfit for purpose.  You need to replace it with something that is.
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: dsmart on November 27, 2016, 11:06:38 AM
That comment makes me wonder about how they will be doing instancing wrt ship or player limits. I've seen comments that suggest they are looking for up to 200 players in an instance. Indeed, it appears some of their ships require more crew than the current instances can currently support....though I have no first hand knowledge of that

Since those ship professions are not likely to ever be implemented, the point is moot I think. For one thing, they'd have to get around the 16 client limit they currently have, before they even start thinking about 200 clients in a single ship. Imagine the hilarity of just having two capital ships with 16 clients each, being in the same instance, with weapons fire and all that going on.

They're never going to get there; so this is just fun to chat about the hilarity of dreams.

I know that the current netcode is subpar... unsurprising as CE3 wasn't designed for the scale being sought...and that they are working to improve it for release in 3.0. But your analysis here makes it sound like this will be  major undertaking for CIG.

It's more than a major undertaking.  I'm going to simplify with an analogy.

Let's say you're asked to make a sandcastle - one story high.  So you go to the beach and make a small sandcastle.

Now the boss comes around and says "I've changed my mind, make it two stories high."  So you manage the nearly impossible feat of making a two-story sandcastle.  It's inherently unstable, but if you don't poke it too much, it'll stay up.  Mostly.

Now the boss comes around again and says he's got a bigger vision - make it 20 stories high.  Reality is not his field, he just reiterates that he's the boss, you're the expert, make it work or you're incompetent.

Now you're in some shit.  Not because the vision is inherently flawed, but because you can't make a 20-story sandcastle due to the construction material being inadequate and unstable for use beyond its current capacity.  You have some options - you could mix the sand with another material to make it more like concrete.  You could change the location and build it out of stronger materials, like wood, or steel.  All of these are workable, but they require starting the project over again.

Unfortunately, your boss has already invited people to move into the 2-story sandcastle, and he's promised that what they're seeing is what the finished product will be, only BETTER.  You have to make it grow to 20 stories without damaging the parts that are already there, because then it will look to the people who are living there that progress is going backwards, and we can't have that, can we?  They might lose faith.  So you are now faced with the task of building an impossible building on an unstable foundation without the appearance of backward progress or the revelation that the original design was a mistake, because that would discourage people from paying for this prime, sandy real estate.  Get to it, expert!

That's a fantastic analogy. It's even better than my architecture/construction analogy I've been using.
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: Kyrt on November 27, 2016, 02:45:17 PM
Since those ship professions are not likely to ever be implemented, the point is moot I think. For one thing, they'd have to get around the 16 client limit they currently have, before they even start thinking about 200 clients in a single ship. Imagine the hilarity of just having two capital ships with 16 clients each, being in the same instance, with weapons fire and all that going on.

I thought the instance limit was now 24?
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: Stan on November 27, 2016, 08:57:19 PM
Guys asks another guy if he's been an idiot to give him money, 2nd guys says no.

I think Derek Smart brings up some good points and a number of potential technical issues that the Star Citizen developers might be or have faced.

However....I would take his assertions of 100% certainty with a pinch of salt. CIG might have developed solutions to the issues he sees, or developed their StarEngine to address them or like FD does, might be using technical or mathematical tricks to work around the issues.

I personally think development of star citizen is going better than Derek Smart suggests...but also a lot worse than CIG are letting on.

Well IF that is the case then this is yet more evidence that they need to fire Sandi.

Croberts published a project plan that looks like a joke in order to help sell some more jpegs. 

If he could do what you suggest he would be promoting that instead.   
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: dsmart on November 28, 2016, 07:21:55 AM
Since those ship professions are not likely to ever be implemented, the point is moot I think. For one thing, they'd have to get around the 16 client limit they currently have, before they even start thinking about 200 clients in a single ship. Imagine the hilarity of just having two capital ships with 16 clients each, being in the same instance, with weapons fire and all that going on.

I thought the instance limit was now 24?

I believe that's only for the stations. Also, they can make it anything they want; and so far, anything above 12 makes the instance not worth playing. Hence the much touted netcode which backers are being misled into thinking is going to solve all these problems and end up with 200+ player instances. I can't wait.
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: somedude on November 28, 2016, 12:29:50 PM
Since those ship professions are not likely to ever be implemented, the point is moot I think. For one thing, they'd have to get around the 16 client limit they currently have, before they even start thinking about 200 clients in a single ship. Imagine the hilarity of just having two capital ships with 16 clients each, being in the same instance, with weapons fire and all that going on.

I thought the instance limit was now 24?

I believe that's only for the stations. Also, they can make it anything they want; and so far, anything above 12 makes the instance not worth playing. Hence the much touted netcode which backers are being misled into thinking is going to solve all these problems and end up with 200+ player instances. I can't wait.

Anyone who believes that, deserves to get shafted.
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: Stan on November 29, 2016, 12:46:23 AM
Since those ship professions are not likely to ever be implemented, the point is moot I think. For one thing, they'd have to get around the 16 client limit they currently have, before they even start thinking about 200 clients in a single ship. Imagine the hilarity of just having two capital ships with 16 clients each, being in the same instance, with weapons fire and all that going on.

I thought the instance limit was now 24?

I believe that's only for the stations. Also, they can make it anything they want; and so far, anything above 12 makes the instance not worth playing. Hence the much touted netcode which backers are being misled into thinking is going to solve all these problems and end up with 200+ player instances. I can't wait.

You can have x number of NPCs you can control and teleporting into friends ships should be fun too.



Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: dsmart on November 29, 2016, 04:23:10 PM
So a backer was asking about the money remaining for development (https://forums.robertsspaceindustries.com/discussion/359499/used-funding-vs-remaining-founding).

Quote
You and I shall never know. As if it would be a good idea for a private company to broadcast it's financial state. It wouldn't. Only spend what you can afford to lose and it's fine. You can then relax and just enjoy the ride. Time will tell. Don't listen to Derek. He's a special kind of stupid.
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: Kyrt on December 01, 2016, 07:20:48 AM
Well....the answer is largely correct.

We know how much has been raised...over $130 million.

How much has been spent is a matter of guess work. Educated guesswork for some people, but still guess work.

I would agree with estimates showing that between pay, rent, fees and so on CIG have likely spent a minimum of $70 million. It could however be much more than this, and some of the money was effectively thrown away...such as that spent on Ilfonics version of Star Marine.

Same with their outgoings. We don't have enough info for a reliable guess

I think the advice is also sound...invest if you want to, but don't expect the control and financial return other investors might expect, don't invest money with the expectation of getting it back and don't invest with the expectation of a finished product. Hope CIG will finish the game but don't complain if it doesn't.

Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: dsmart on December 02, 2016, 06:58:28 PM
Stop praising CIG and start pushing them to release things (https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/comments/5g6qsq/stop_praising_cig_and_start_pushing_them_to/)

Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: DDM_Reaper20 on December 05, 2016, 06:44:16 AM
So a backer was asking about the money remaining for development (https://forums.robertsspaceindustries.com/discussion/359499/used-funding-vs-remaining-founding).

Quote
You and I shall never know. As if it would be a good idea for a private company to broadcast it's financial state. It wouldn't. Only spend what you can afford to lose and it's fine. You can then relax and just enjoy the ride. Time will tell. Don't listen to Derek. He's a special kind of stupid.

Well, if somebody resorts to insulting somebody who is criticising, you know that they are truly desperate and in a state of denial.

Yup, time will tell. Things are not looking good for Citizens right now. Personally, I knew it was a terrible idea once I read about how CIG classifies ist own customers (goon? Snow flake? High maintenance? SERIOUSLY?).

The hammer is going to fall. EVEN IF SC comes out, its admirers may well find out that other games have superseded it in the mean time. I just hope that the ones responsible for this will not escape.  :smug:

Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: dsmart on December 05, 2016, 01:16:01 PM
An apology and a rant. (https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/comments/5giov4/apology_and_rant/)

This one is Golden. Shitizens at their best.
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: dsmart on December 05, 2016, 01:24:49 PM
Everyone's excited for 2.6 to be released so they can play it, meanwhile, I'm excited for it to be released so we can then find out how long until 3.0 will launch (https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/comments/5gminb/everyones_excited_for_26_to_be_released_so_they/)

LOL!! Looks like they're already resigned to the fact that croberts flat out LIED to them when he said 3.0 was coming out in Dec. Then they gave him $5 million dollars.

Of course, I've been saying that 3.0 simply wasn't happening in 2016 (http://www.dereksmart.org/forums/topic/sc-scoop/#post-4757); and that 2.6 was going to be shaky.  :smuggo:
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: dsmart on December 05, 2016, 04:14:00 PM
3.0's slated end of 2016 launch target as of August (https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/comments/5gp3s8/30s_slated_end_of_2016_launch_target_as_of_august/datywh5/)  :shrug:
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: nawledgelambo on December 05, 2016, 05:52:40 PM
"How dare you hold the company's CEO responsible for what he says, we don't here on reddit because we know game development. I will now downvote you into oblivion because how dare you expect them to hold up to a relative timetable."
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: dsmart on December 05, 2016, 10:08:11 PM
It's worse. Now they're singing a new tune that croberts never promised 3.0 was coming out this year. Seriously. Even though this video exists (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z-3YBuFI3iI&t=1416):

"..so, it's our big end of the year release. er so er yeah, so we're gonna get it out the end of the year; hopefully not on December 19th but, er, like last year....but it is a big one, so, not making er, I got shot for making promises, but er, that's our goal."
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: dsmart on December 07, 2016, 09:13:19 AM
Well at least Shitizens can't cry foul when the same overzealous mods they keep ripping on /r/DS pull the same stunt and ban others.

I just got banned for this post (https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php?p=4870027&viewfull=1#post4870027) (probably deleted) which is quite puzzling to say the least.

(http://i.imgur.com/kdLb2AV.jpg)


Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: Dementropy on December 07, 2016, 10:59:39 AM
It's possible the mod saw it as a personal attack on the shills. If I remember correctly, Tippis received a similar temp ban, a few months ago, when throwing logic at the shillizens in the same thread.

Ah well.

Tweeting stuff like "30 Days! #StarCitizen" is ominous enough to get r/ds up in arms.  :smug:
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: dsmart on December 07, 2016, 11:05:08 AM
It's possible the mod saw it as a personal attack on the shills. If I remember correctly, Tippis received a similar temp ban, a few months ago, when throwing logic at the shillizens in the same thread.

Ah well.

Tweeting stuff like "30 Days! #StarCitizen" is ominous enough to get r/ds up in arms.  :smug:

No clue. But considering that both Hi-Ban and Cmdr Orlando who get banned regularly, use the same language, it's anyone's guess what ends up triggering a mod's ire. I'm sure they don't even want Star Citizen discussions there tbh, since it's a high maintenance mod requirement.
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: mackjazno on December 07, 2016, 11:28:49 PM
 
Probably more than a few CIG fans reported your post for whatever since they just can't stand hearing negative things about their game that they have sunk too much money into.  I should know.  Your stuff used to upset me too until I came around!  Part of the reason I joined your forum is to get another view and some inside info.  Where better than here?

I think you are right, it just causes the mods more work to respond to CIG fans flagging each and every one of your posts. So you get banned.
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: Darklegend1 on December 08, 2016, 03:33:20 AM

Probably more than a few CIG fans reported your post for whatever since they just can't stand hearing negative things about their game that they have sunk too much money into.  I should know.  Your stuff used to upset me too until I came around!  Part of the reason I joined your forum is to get another view and some inside info.  Where better than here?

I think you are right, it just causes the mods more work to respond to CIG fans flagging each and every one of your posts. So you get banned.

Good point, maybe if i had much more than the starter pack then i too would have not accepted the logical truth.
i only invested coz of the label that said 'coming 2016' on their website i never knew it was a honey trap, never did i thought a game developer can stoop this low.

One thing i noticed that when asked about the delays CIG fans says "game development takes time" and then start giving examples of other games that took long but they dont seem to see that if they can deduce that start citizen will take 6-8 yrs in making so does the developer even more extensively so why do they false advertise coming this year on their site.they should clearly state coming 2018 or 2019. In 2016 its was "coming 2016",now we are coming to 2017 so now it is "coming 2017" its just to trap new players into thinking that its coming like next month or so and take their money away.

i tried telling this to fans on reddit that i understand game can take 10yrs if it has to but it is wrong on CIG part to do false advertising and  play carrot and stick strategy with backers. but they were not ready to understand.
I know telling the actual deadline will surely hurt funding but it is the right way to do it. Atleast new backers will know what they are getting into and there will be no ranting articles on reddit.
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: Sunwalker on December 08, 2016, 06:06:47 AM
Well at least Shitizens can't cry foul when the same overzealous mods they keep ripping on /r/DS pull the same stunt and ban others.

I just got banned for this post (https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php?p=4870027&viewfull=1#post4870027) (probably deleted) which is quite puzzling to say the least.

Mr. Smart, it looks for me that you have violated their "no naming and shaming" rule, since you mentioned the name of the shill.

Even when someone happen to be complaining about the actions of another commander in Elite Dangerous, it is not allowed to say his name. I noticed that when I was reading anotger day a thread in which someone complain about being ganked, but he mentions that he isn't allowed to say the name of the ganker because of said rule.

Whether this sort of rule is necessary or not, it is a completely different discussion. But at least I can say is that it looks for me that the Frontier mods are being consistent with their own rules.
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: dsmart on December 08, 2016, 08:56:01 AM
Well at least Shitizens can't cry foul when the same overzealous mods they keep ripping on /r/DS pull the same stunt and ban others.

I just got banned for this post (https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php?p=4870027&viewfull=1#post4870027) (probably deleted) which is quite puzzling to say the least.

Mr. Smart, it looks for me that you have violated their "no naming and shaming" rule, since you mentioned the name of the shill.

Not in this case. As you can see from the message, it says No flaming, trolling, harassment, and/or badgering. I have no idea which one I apparently violated, but I would guess it's because of this line "They are lying shills whose sole purpose is to lie, obfuscate and deride"

(http://i.imgur.com/kdLb2AV.jpg)
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: dsmart on December 08, 2016, 06:14:23 PM
So the guy who has been leaking 2.6 footage, has been getting death threats (https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/comments/5h4clx/meta_about_the_26_evocati_test_and_the_subreddit/daxog8q/).
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: Rogerio on December 09, 2016, 02:21:23 AM
So the guy who has been leaking 2.6 footage, has been getting death threats (https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/comments/5h4clx/meta_about_the_26_evocati_test_and_the_subreddit/daxog8q/).

I think we can safely say that nothing from Shitizens are shocking us anymore.

If they are doing this over you, previous backers, people showing videos of a video game, etc.... I can ONLY IMAGINE what they will do towards Chris Roberts and his crew, when the projects sink.

I mean, if they are this vile towards a dude who just showed some alpha footage, what will they do towards the people who took their money!?
 :wtchris:
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: Darklegend1 on December 09, 2016, 03:28:11 AM
So the guy who has been leaking 2.6 footage, has been getting death threats (https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/comments/5h4clx/meta_about_the_26_evocati_test_and_the_subreddit/daxog8q/).

I think we can safely say that nothing from Shitizens are shocking us anymore.

If they are doing this over you, previous backers, people showing videos of a video game, etc.... I can ONLY IMAGINE what they will do towards Chris Roberts and his crew, when the projects sink.

I mean, if they are this vile towards a dude who just showed some alpha footage, what will they do towards the people who took their money!?
 :wtchris:

I think they all will go dead silent when that happens as making noise would only show they were morons previously even when they were warned... :laugh: :laugh:

also does the new atv has anything worth seeing ..havnt watched it myself
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: Padrepapp on December 09, 2016, 04:04:17 AM
Star Citizen fans are so zealous, that in the end if SC falls, they will say: "Chris Roberts is a hero, who tried to do what noone dared, and failed because of external reasons."
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: Rogerio on December 09, 2016, 04:30:14 AM
Star Citizen fans are so zealous, that in the end if SC falls, they will say: "Chris Roberts is a hero, who tried to do what noone dared, and failed because of external reasons."

And by "external reasons" we all know who they are going to blame.
Because one man alone, through the internet, is capable of disrupting a 130+ million dollar and 400+ employees operation.  :snoop: :wtchris:

And by the way, the hate and lawsuit threats over at the Pebble kickstarter page/reddit is getting out of hand... and these people got their watches, a physical working device, and they are in flames because they are not getting more updates/patches, etc... and we are talking of 100-250 bucks watches.
(the ones that did not get the watch, will be getting refunds soon though)

So one has to wonder what happens when people lose all that money and get just hopes and dreams memories in return. lol
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: somedude on December 09, 2016, 06:10:17 AM
If I was Chris, i'd take some of that cash i stole and hire a few armed bodyguards with it. He's gonna need them i'd guess.
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: Mehlan on December 09, 2016, 04:01:07 PM
 I like how they stab themselves in the foot with their own updates...

   See the 'status' report on Sq42 from Games and Citizen conventions...
    then note in the latest ATV they talk about new animation capture for SQ42
    now in the latest RTV they comment about starting work on the f8, an asset for SQ42
    that was reputed to have been completed months ago.
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: dsmart on December 09, 2016, 07:48:10 PM
It's all been lies. I have been saying that for months. 2017 is when the wheels finally come off I think.
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: Darklegend1 on December 09, 2016, 10:31:13 PM
so thats it for the year from CIG will be on leave till 12th of january :airquote:(so much for 3.0) :airquote:. :lesnick: :sandance:

So when do you guys think 3.0 update will come i would say end march..what ya say guys??
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: Narrenbart on December 09, 2016, 10:38:58 PM
so thats it for the year from CIG will be on leave till 12th of january :airquote:(so much for 3.0) :airquote:. :lesnick: :sandance:

So when do you guys think 3.0 update will come i would say end march..what ya say guys??
Japp end of march 2018 seems reasonable - and they will smoke and mirror through 2017
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: Narrenbart on December 09, 2016, 10:42:02 PM
I just can not wait to see planetwide physic errors - remember they went full rigidbody on a sphere ... a rotating sphere ... with assets in the sky that have more verts than a complete TESO town ... a little lag and everything goes bad, bad in a way that CIG ... again ... will set new levels of bad
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: Darklegend1 on December 09, 2016, 10:52:42 PM
I just can not wait to see planetwide physic errors - remember they went full rigidbody on a sphere ... a rotating sphere ... with assets in the sky that have more verts than a complete TESO town ... a little lag and everything goes bad, bad in a way that CIG ... again ... will set new levels of bad
lol yeah it will be fun to see all that shit..have u seen their new graph where they depict bugs created and bugs smashed. lol see it on their production schedule page.
the problem is every day that passes is creating more and more pressure as they are already late over promises made for 3.0 so they will launch something in 2-3 months or CIg can go  :rip:.
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: Kyrt on December 10, 2016, 06:10:22 AM
It's all been lies. I have been saying that for months. 2017 is when the wheels finally come off I think.

You probably have information I do not.

Without that, my own thoughts are that both SC and SQ42 are far behind where CIG wanted them to be at this stage, that they've spent more money than they'd planned and have a number of issues they still need to resolve.

The game isn't going to take 5 years to create. 8 is IMO more likely. And they are going to need more money for marketing....I don't think whatever cost multipliers Chris Roberts talked about that make every dollar invested equivalent to four or five under a traditional model really works.

SQ42 OTOH almost HAS to launch in 2017. At least, part1. CIG need to show off something concrete, they need a new revenue stream to counter potential refunds and at 4 sites, 400 devs they could easily be burning through $20-$30million a year.

Now....if that is true, they should easily have enough money at hand to develop and finish the games. But server farms and marketing will be expensive to set up and maintain. And its questionable whether they'd get many sales after launch as they've already been selling the game for five years. So it is possible that much of whatever buffer they have is already accounted for.

But do I think the wheels are coming off? It's possible things are worse than I think....

But CIG raised a lot of money this year, well over $30 million. It is hard to believe that they don't have a financial buffer. So it seems likely they will remain solvent for the mext couple of years. Which SHOULD be long enough to see SQ42 Episode 1 released and bring in new revenue as well.

So....I can accept that CIG is having issues with SC and SQ42. Some of what they have been doing, saying and releasing does strike me as being problematic and has more than a hint of PR and spin. I am concerned that CIG don't even appear to have settled on a basic flight model....what I would consider a fundamental requirement for this sort of game...and that we haven't seen much of sQ42 at all.

But...leaving aside Roberts' problems with meeting his self imposed deadlines...deadlines which appear to have little bearing with reality...he has promised nothing that cannot be delivered. Other games have delivered what he wants so he too can deliver.

All he needs is time and money. Well...in reality, money.

However....he appears to have at least 3 years of development on SC remaining. Maybe less if he goes for a MVP release. There doesn't seem to be any indication of a marketing campaign beyond the recruitment effort for investors and backers. Which is getting them to pay hundreds of dollars up front for a $50 game preorder when that game hasn't been reviewed, previewed or demoed. And if he wants a server farm capable of providing 200 player instances...that will require a fair bit of cash as well.

So he has plenty of demands for cash. If CIG still has $50 million of a buffer...and stops selling ships....they'll have enough cash for a bit less than two years development, even without savings elsewhere.

That'll be enough to tide them over until something is released.

Of course, there's always the possibility that some other event will happen but in all honesty, CIG appear to be developing the game and appear intent on releasing it. If they stopped handing out wildly optimistic release info it'd be better. Other than that, their funding model isn't one which rewards a quick release.
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: somedude on December 10, 2016, 06:28:07 AM
It's all been lies. I have been saying that for months. 2017 is when the wheels finally come off I think.

You probably have information I do not.

Without that, my own thoughts are that both SC and SQ42 are far behind where CIG wanted them to be at this stage, that they've spent more money than they'd planned and have a number of issues they still need to resolve.

The game isn't going to take 5 years to create. 8 is IMO more likely. And they are going to need more money for marketing....I don't think whatever cost multipliers Chris Roberts talked about that make every dollar invested equivalent to four or five under a traditional model really works.

SQ42 OTOH almost HAS to launch in 2017. At least, part1. CIG need to show off something concrete, they need a new revenue stream to counter potential refunds and at 4 sites, 400 devs they could easily be burning through $20-$30million a year.

Now....if that is true, they should easily have enough money at hand to develop and finish the games. But server farms and marketing will be expensive to set up and maintain. And its questionable whether they'd get many sales after launch as they've already been selling the game for five years. So it is possible that much of whatever buffer they have is already accounted for.

But do I think the wheels are coming off? It's possible things are worse than I think....

But CIG raised a lot of money this year, well over $30 million. It is hard to believe that they don't have a financial buffer. So it seems likely they will remain solvent for the mext couple of years. Which SHOULD be long enough to see SQ42 Episode 1 released and bring in new revenue as well.

So....I can accept that CIG is having issues with SC and SQ42. Some of what they have been doing, saying and releasing does strike me as being problematic and has more than a hint of PR and spin. I am concerned that CIG don't even appear to have settled on a basic flight model....what I would consider a fundamental requirement for this sort of game...and that we haven't seen much of sQ42 at all.

But...leaving aside Roberts' problems with meeting his self imposed deadlines...deadlines which appear to have little bearing with reality...he has promised nothing that cannot be delivered. Other games have delivered what he wants so he too can deliver.

All he needs is time and money. Well...in reality, money.

However....he appears to have at least 3 years of development on SC remaining. Maybe less if he goes for a MVP release. There doesn't seem to be any indication of a marketing campaign beyond the recruitment effort for investors and backers. Which is getting them to pay hundreds of dollars up front for a $50 game preorder when that game hasn't been reviewed, previewed or demoed. And if he wants a server farm capable of providing 200 player instances...that will require a fair bit of cash as well.

So he has plenty of demands for cash. If CIG still has $50 million of a buffer...and stops selling ships....they'll have enough cash for a bit less than two years development, even without savings elsewhere.

That'll be enough to tide them over until something is released.

Of course, there's always the possibility that some other event will happen but in all honesty, CIG appear to be developing the game and appear intent on releasing it. If they stopped handing out wildly optimistic release info it'd be better. Other than that, their funding model isn't one which rewards a quick release.

There's a couple of things u need to keep in mind:
- Their pledge counter is run by them. By no means is it proven that it shows reality. For all we know they made 1 million in stead of 30 this year. They cannot afford to let that counter drop dead or everyone would see financial doom.

- They do not need money for marketing, as their marketing consists of letting a bunch of ppl make vids wich isn't exactly costly and is funded by subscribers.

- 8 years? do u really believe that? To do everything Chris has promised they'd need 30 years at their current develoment speed (or lack theroff).

- Yes, SQ42 HAS to launch in 2017 or this project is officially dead. U know the funny part about that? Right after SQ42 launches the project will be dead anyways. They have such a barebones part 1 planned that it will leave a foul taste in 90% of the backers. It will be boring, repetitive and buggy (borderline unplayable). Mark my words.

- They have no financial reserves that we know off (barring funding from non-backer sources). they already depleted those and are running at fumes atm. Ask any person with financial occupation/education. (and yes, i am an accountant)

- CR needs a kick in the ass and a reality check. CR is the biggest liability to this project along with his dollar sign obsessed wife. His perfectionism is what is killing this project. The only way i see star citizen become a reality is a rerun of the freelancer story.

tldr: This ship is sinking fast atm and the only thing that can save it is Chris knocking his head on something hard and actually start producing a game as it should or he getting canned or selling SC. Backer trust is at an all-time low and that will never recover as they have nothing to release and gain back trust. (even when sq42 part releases that will not be enough as most will see that its a quick, crappy, boring game they released to gain more funds)
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: Kyrt on December 10, 2016, 07:20:32 AM
There's a couple of things u need to keep in mind:
- Their pledge counter is run by them. By no means is it proven that it shows reality. For all we know they made 1 million in stead of 30 this year. They cannot afford to let that counter drop dead or everyone would see financial doom.

- They do not need money for marketing, as their marketing consists of letting a bunch of ppl make vids wich isn't exactly costly and is funded by subscribers.

- 8 years? do u really believe that? To do everything Chris has promised they'd need 30 years at their current develoment speed (or lack theroff).

- Yes, SQ42 HAS to launch in 2017 or this project is officially dead. U know the funny part about that? Right after SQ42 launches the project will be dead anyways. They have such a barebones part 1 planned that it will leave a foul taste in 90% of the backers. It will be boring, repetitive and buggy (borderline unplayable). Mark my words.

- They have no financial reserves that we know off (barring funding from non-backer sources). they already depleted those and are running at fumes atm. Ask any person with financial occupation/education. (and yes, i am an accountant)

- CR needs a kick in the ass and a reality check. CR is the biggest liability to this project along with his dollar sign obsessed wife. His perfectionism is what is killing this project. The only way i see star citizen become a reality is a rerun of the freelancer story.

tldr: This ship is sinking fast atm and the only thing that can save it is Chris knocking his head on something hard and actually start producing a game as it should or he getting canned or selling SC. Backer trust is at an all-time low and that will never recover as they have nothing to release and gain back trust. (even when sq42 part releases that will not be enough as most will see that its a quick, crappy, boring game they released to gain more funds)

If they are lying about their income then all bets are off.

Money is always needed for marketing. If they ate just relying on word of mouth and youtube vids, then they've already sold 80% or so of what they'll sell.

8 years..yes. Depending on what exactly they'll release, what features the game has. 8 years seems reasonable. Games like WOW and SWTOR and GTA5 and NMS and ED took about 5years. With smaller teams.

They released with fewer features but rely upon an expansion model to add new aspects. SC is trying to get everything into the game with one release, and needed to do a lot of work on basic foundation technologies such as the engine...hence, an 8 year development schedule.

3.0 was supposed to be out in 2016. Not gonna happen.
3.0 was to see three patches in 2016. Not likely to happen.
4.0 was supposed to be released end of 2017. That isn't likely either.

Currently....I'd expect 4.0 around Q2 2018. With a number of patches headed into 2019 to flesh out the ships, systems and content and to polish the mechanics introduced in 3.x. Beta testing around Q2 3019 with a release around 2020.

If they cut down on content...which they haven't promised....in favour of quick procedurally generated planets...they DID promise 100 systems on launch, they could cut back on that date as well, to get it out earlier.

But 8 years seems reasonable.

If SQ42 is as bad as you suggest, it won't be released. Better no product than a bad one.

Assuming their funding is correct, they have gained over $135 million over 4 years. The best guesstimates...which could be wrong...suggest they have spent $60-$80 million to date. So...unless they are lying about the money raised, or have some major unaccounted for expenses, they should have a substantial reserve.

And yes...it appears from the outside that Chris Roberts is more of a visionary rather than a manager. From what I understand, it is Erin Roberts who has taken over a lot of the management and things have become a lot more professional since then. Chris managed to make some poor decisions, and a lot of time and money has been wasted as a result, but there seems to be little danger of the wheels coming off in 2017. Not with the info available.

Yes...Derek Smart brings up many good points. But that doesn't make him right all the time. Austin didn't close and CIG hadn't filed for bankruptcy. SM was shown.

As I said before, I think Derek Smart brings up good points and I think CIG has been guilty of bad communication but the true situation is better than Derek Smart says while worse than CIG make out.





Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: somedude on December 10, 2016, 07:50:14 AM
There's a couple of things u need to keep in mind:
- Their pledge counter is run by them. By no means is it proven that it shows reality. For all we know they made 1 million in stead of 30 this year. They cannot afford to let that counter drop dead or everyone would see financial doom.

- They do not need money for marketing, as their marketing consists of letting a bunch of ppl make vids wich isn't exactly costly and is funded by subscribers.

- 8 years? do u really believe that? To do everything Chris has promised they'd need 30 years at their current develoment speed (or lack theroff).

- Yes, SQ42 HAS to launch in 2017 or this project is officially dead. U know the funny part about that? Right after SQ42 launches the project will be dead anyways. They have such a barebones part 1 planned that it will leave a foul taste in 90% of the backers. It will be boring, repetitive and buggy (borderline unplayable). Mark my words.

- They have no financial reserves that we know off (barring funding from non-backer sources). they already depleted those and are running at fumes atm. Ask any person with financial occupation/education. (and yes, i am an accountant)

- CR needs a kick in the ass and a reality check. CR is the biggest liability to this project along with his dollar sign obsessed wife. His perfectionism is what is killing this project. The only way i see star citizen become a reality is a rerun of the freelancer story.

tldr: This ship is sinking fast atm and the only thing that can save it is Chris knocking his head on something hard and actually start producing a game as it should or he getting canned or selling SC. Backer trust is at an all-time low and that will never recover as they have nothing to release and gain back trust. (even when sq42 part releases that will not be enough as most will see that its a quick, crappy, boring game they released to gain more funds)

If they are lying about their income then all bets are off.

Money is always needed for marketing. If they ate just relying on word of mouth and youtube vids, then they've already sold 80% or so of what they'll sell.

8 years..yes. Depending on what exactly they'll release, what features the game has. 8 years seems reasonable. Games like WOW and SWTOR and GTA5 and NMS and ED took about 5years. With smaller teams.

They released with fewer features but rely upon an expansion model to add new aspects. SC is trying to get everything into the game with one release, and needed to do a lot of work on basic foundation technologies such as the engine...hence, an 8 year development schedule.

3.0 was supposed to be out in 2016. Not gonna happen.
3.0 was to see three patches in 2016. Not likely to happen.
4.0 was supposed to be released end of 2017. That isn't likely either.

Currently....I'd expect 4.0 around Q2 2018. With a number of patches headed into 2019 to flesh out the ships, systems and content and to polish the mechanics introduced in 3.x. Beta testing around Q2 3019 with a release around 2020.

If they cut down on content...which they haven't promised....in favour of quick procedurally generated planets...they DID promise 100 systems on launch, they could cut back on that date as well, to get it out earlier.

But 8 years seems reasonable.

If SQ42 is as bad as you suggest, it won't be released. Better no product than a bad one.

Assuming their funding is correct, they have gained over $135 million over 4 years. The best guesstimates...which could be wrong...suggest they have spent $60-$80 million to date. So...unless they are lying about the money raised, or have some major unaccounted for expenses, they should have a substantial reserve.

And yes...it appears from the outside that Chris Roberts is more of a visionary rather than a manager. From what I understand, it is Erin Roberts who has taken over a lot of the management and things have become a lot more professional since then. Chris managed to make some poor decisions, and a lot of time and money has been wasted as a result, but there seems to be little danger of the wheels coming off in 2017. Not with the info available.

Yes...Derek Smart brings up many good points. But that doesn't make him right all the time. Austin didn't close and CIG hadn't filed for bankruptcy. SM was shown.

As I said before, I think Derek Smart brings up good points and I think CIG has been guilty of bad communication but the true situation is better than Derek Smart says while worse than CIG make out.

If they release at 8 years in, with the speed they have today, they'll have about 40% of all promised features. So dont count on a full game at that point.

They already said (Chris did) that they'll release a minimale viable product: aka they've already cut most features.

Actually, the educated guesstimates are more around anything around 90-110 mil spend. Dont forget that we have the numbers from last year (UK office) wich show big wages for top brass (and Chris/sandi arent even in there) + the millions lost for actors.

I agree that things have gotten a bit better in the last year, but not yet to the point of actually being efficiënt. Erin does a good job but Chris needs to step back completely.

Yes, Derek has a tendency for the dramatic, and i agree that things are somewhere in the midlle as u say.

Just look at the things we know with 100% certainty:
- They alienate old backers with their marketing campaign (lying, deceiving etc) = no more money from most of them.
- They have more artists and designers then actual coders = slow progres but quick jpeg generation.
- they've chosen a FPS engine and cant even release a FPS minigame in 4 years.
- they're late on their own dates by a margin of years... YEARS....
- they have fixed about 5% of the bugs since 2.0 was released.

What does this tell u? I'll tell u what it tells me:
- incompetent leadership (starting with graphics then gameplay is the most retarded way to make a game, yet it is what they have been doing since start)
- Either the marketing department (and chris aswell) is lying their asses off or they are dumber then a pigs ass. (i'm guessing the first option)
- Their coders/developers are either completely incompetent to make a game, or they are being called back every step they take by the incompetent boss (being chris) (i guess the latter).

I can understand the engine problems, they did not plan to make such a game around kickstarter, but the best choice would've been to ditch cryengine and simply make their own.
As was said before: remove the incompetent leadership and this game will have a chance.. untill then even a torpedo wont speed up the sinking of this ship.
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: Narrenbart on December 10, 2016, 09:27:54 AM
SQ42 won't save them at all they sold it now for years, if it releases we will see how much people are willing to pay $45+ Bucks for an interactive movie (hint: not so many).
This implies that they are able to push it out completly and not in tiny bits like 5 small missions for the backers.

The other thing is that the whole project is doomed, words like 64Bit is stuff that they like use to blow fairy dust in the eyes of the backers (remember that there is NO full 64 Bit GPU in the world [AMD is running at 1/4 and nVidia 1/16 of their speed in 64Bit operations]) instead of doing intelligent and logic stuff to avoid the needs of 64Bit (like KSP) they rather fuck up their complete project.
The other thing is that Chicken Head thing ... I really don't want to start with this one.

On top of that is that their whole community is building up so much hype and dreams (fueled by CR and CIG) that they cannot even start to find the fun in the game, everytime they nail down a mechanic there will be an army of upset customers ready to lighten up their torches to burn down the RSI Forums > see Golf Swing mechanic - but yeah it's just a placeholder ...

so the best thing to do for CR is rake your Millions in CEO wages, hide into a box and hope that there is no Customer near that will steal the box and rape you if they find you inside ...
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: Kyrt on December 10, 2016, 12:59:17 PM
If they release at 8 years in, with the speed they have today, they'll have about 40% of all promised features. So dont count on a full game at that point.

I would surmise most of the past few years have been dedicated towards improving the engine they have licensed. It seems very much evident that CryEngine was very much inadequate for the game that Chris Roberts has envisaged.

Work on that engine is still ongoing. But assuming the reports from CIG are correct, the engine is at least vastly improved. CIG are planning to add many of the core mechanics in the next patch...in 3.x.

Once they do that, there is mainly content to add. CIG likely wouldn't have a lot to show if they put in as much work on the engine and toolkit as seems to have occurred.

CIG have no doubt wasted a lot of money thanks to some very questionable decisions. They've wasted time and resources as a result of those same decisions. The game is behind schedule and a modified engine will no doubt cause more problems for CIG than a custom engine would have.

But while I think CIG are over optimistic about their timetable, 8 years is still reasonable. That should, barring unforeseen delays, give them enough time to integrate and develop the mechanics for the game, and craft the 100 systems and ships it promised.

What I wouldn't expect is for those systems to have anything more than a basic level of content.

But if the work on the engine is as complete as indicated, then another 3 years for for the rest of the game isn't an unreasonable timeframe.

Quote
They already said (Chris did) that they'll release a minimale viable product: aka they've already cut most features.

No. It just means that they are prepated to launch the game without all tne features promised. That could mean most features added.

Based on their stretch goals, that would include a number of ships, 100 systems, FPS modules and a basic Elite clone. 3.x will give them most of the mechanics needed, the FPS is being added and the space sim is largely in place.


Quote
Actually, the educated guesstimates are more around anything around 90-110 mil spend. Dont forget that we have the numbers from last year (UK office) wich show big wages for top brass (and Chris/sandi arent even in there) + the millions lost for actors.

Those figures aren't impossible, but $60-80 million seem fat more likely. Even with your guestimates, that still gives CIG a sizeable buffer alongside what is a robust cash flow. Even at your worst guess, that still gives CIG a $30million buffer and an average income of over $30million a year, with likely expenditures only anout $20-25 million.

Quote
Just look at the things we know with 100% certainty:
- They alienate old backers with their marketing campaign (lying, deceiving etc) = no more money from most of them.
- They have more artists and designers then actual coders = slow progres but quick jpeg generation.
- they've chosen a FPS engine and cant even release a FPS minigame in 4 years.
- they're late on their own dates by a margin of years... YEARS....
- they have fixed about 5% of the bugs since 2.0 was released.

Alienated backers doesn't necessarily mean no more backing.
There is always some bottleneck like this.
The FPS game we've seen has only been in development for a year or so. The previous incarnation by Ilfonic was scrapped.
Yes...they are late. Already mentioned.
And this is the Alpha. There are going to be bugs.

Quote
I can understand the engine problems, they did not plan to make such a game around kickstarter, but the best choice would've been to ditch cryengine and simply make their own.
As was said before: remove the incompetent leadership and this game will have a chance.. untill then even a torpedo wont speed up the sinking of this ship.

Yes...I've said before CIG should have scrapped CryEngine and made a dedicated engine. But while development is progressing much slower than hoped for, it is nonetheless progressing and there is no sign...no public sign anyway...that CIG are on the verge of collapse or that the "wheels are coming off"
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: somedude on December 10, 2016, 01:16:27 PM
I think the signs are there for all those who want to see them:

- sales for fresh cash (strong indicator they're running out)
- Continued hyping with outright lies (again to raise more cash)
- comming back on their word multiple times (again, for cash)
- Disgruntled ex-employees in terms of treatment/boss/lack of vision/lack of progress due to perfectionism (yes every company has them, but there's Always truth behind what those ppl say)
- marketing tactics tha would leave EA with shame on their cheeks
- Lack of progress (tangible)
- inability to coordinate (yes i'm talking about ilfonic, wich was entirely a leadership problem)
- no financial disclosures (i'm talking about taxes here, wich are mandatory but they dont even do that in the US)

Plenty of sings to go around in my book.
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: Kyrt on December 10, 2016, 01:32:07 PM
I see the signs and I think there is trouble and problems.

A sign CIG are going belly up? That the game won't be released?

Not with the we have now.

There "technical difficulties"...largely related to decisions such as the use of CryEngine, money and time have been wasted, development is slower than anticipated (but seems likely to speed up if work on the engine is as advanced as suggested) and of course, management and communication issues.

That there are problems, however, does not indicate CIG will collapse, the the development is a scam or that the game will never be released.
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: Narrenbart on December 10, 2016, 01:41:30 PM
I would surmise most of the past few years have been dedicated towards improving the engine they have licensed. It seems very much evident that CryEngine was very much inadequate for the game that Chris Roberts has envisaged.
indeed Cry is an isle FPS engine - It seems that he got blinded by the onboard shader (which are only good for quick shiny demos).

Once they do that, there is mainly content to add. CIG likely wouldn't have a lot to show if they put in as much work on the engine and toolkit as seems to have occurred.
Groundhog Day anyone? They say this every year ... every fucking year ... 2017 will be the year for CIG > every pipeline is worked out, every studio set up, now they will shit out content and gameplay... 100 Systems ... lets say 5 planets per system and 40 POI (landing site, Shop, Mission etc) on every planet that makes it worthwile ... adds up to 20.000 Interesting spots to create ...

But while I think CIG are over optimistic about their timetable, 8 years is still reasonable. That should, barring unforeseen delays, give them enough time to integrate and develop the mechanics for the game, and craft the 100 systems and ships it promised.
Yes and as some individuals say Development has only started 2012 2013 2014 2015 (maybe 2016?) Prepare for a beta in 2023 and don't forget to finance this wreck.
Basically well there are games that took 5+ years but how many of them in the whole history of game development have been in pre-Alpha for more than 4 years?

But if the work on the engine is as complete as indicated, then another 3 years for for the rest of the game isn't an unreasonable timeframe.
Indeed, but with all the gameplay loops they want to  implement it's more than a 30 year project.

Quote
They already said (Chris did) that they'll release a minimale viable product: aka they've already cut most features.

No. It just means that they are prepated to launch the game without all tne features promised. That could mean most features added.
No MVP means MVP - like MVP in NMS or E:D - Most features added would be ermh ... MFA ...

Alienated backers doesn't necessarily mean no more backing.
Let me sell this other bridge to you

There is always some bottleneck like this.
When you are making a JPEG collection game that is.

The FPS game we've seen has only been in development for a year or so. The previous incarnation by Ilfonic was scrapped.
japp and the mode they are implementing has nothing to do with the MMO Part - it seems that they are firing up a standard Cry4 engine with a skinned "FPS in 2 days" Tutorial

And this is the Alpha. There are going to be bugs.
No it's a pre-Alpha > an Alpha has concepts of all game loops in it > Alpha means nailed down and testing how game loops interact on the way to Beta not R&D the wheel again.


In conclusion I wish this trainwreck goes very slow, we had so man times laughing at SC videos in our studio - on the other hand, fans have sometimes great ideas, well 1 out of 100 is realiseable but with a little downsizing there are some pearls to find.
On top of that as long as they are "developing" this abomination, the radical fans stay away from other projects

Post Scriptum: I am clearly not a native english speaker and spell checking is running amok.
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: Kyrt on December 10, 2016, 02:50:03 PM
indeed Cry is an isle FPS engine - It seems that he got blinded by the onboard shader (which are only good for quick shiny demos).

Whatever. I can take Derek Smarts word that CIG could have made their original game with it but it has struck me for a fair time that for a game like SC has grown into that CIG would have been better off scrapping the engine and devoting the time and resources they've spent modifying it into building a custom engine instead.

Quote
Groundhog Day anyone? They say this every year ... every fucking year ... 2017 will be the year for CIG > every pipeline is worked out, every studio set up, now they will shit out content and gameplay... 100 Systems ... lets say 5 planets per system and 40 POI (landing site, Shop, Mission etc) on every planet that makes it worthwile ... adds up to 20.000 Interesting spots to create ...

I don't think 2017 will be THE year. Nor 2018. Late 2019 through 2020...is the earliest date I would expect SC.

As for 20,000 systems...if they get the planet creation tech running correctly, they can easily generate a large number of planets.  That's what procedural generation will do. What will eat up the time will be handcrafting all that content for each planet...and thats where we can expect "shortcuts".




Quote
Yes and as some individuals say Development has only started 2012 2013 2014 2015 (maybe 2016?) Prepare for a beta in 2023 and don't forget to finance this wreck.
Basically well there are games that took 5+ years but how many of them in the whole history of game development have been in pre-Alpha for more than 4 years?

Quite a few...considering those games started with existing engines. CIG happear to have spent much of the past few years creating the tools the needed to create the game. Thats overlappped with the development of various assets such as ships, stations and so on...

Which, while striking me as an inefficient way of doings things (I can easily see at least some of this work needing to be redone once the game starts being built up) does mean that they aren't quite starting from scratch.

CIG have a lot of content to add, and a lot of testing of said content, a lot of ships and stations, a lot of gameplay mechanics...

But there isn't anything they can't solve given time.

A 2019 release date should give them that time. Especially if they do a cut and paste on common assets such as stations and cities.

Quote
No MVP means MVP - like MVP in NMS or E:D - Most features added would be ermh ... MFA ...

It depends...is it MVP as in one that will work...or MVP based upon what they have promised? A MVP would be Arena Commander. But CIG have promised features...they can cut actual content eadily enough, or copy it
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: dsmart on December 11, 2016, 05:18:13 AM
There's a couple of things u need to keep in mind:
- Their pledge counter is run by them. By no means is it proven that it shows reality. For all we know they made 1 million in stead of 30 this year. They cannot afford to let that counter drop dead or everyone would see financial doom.

- They do not need money for marketing, as their marketing consists of letting a bunch of ppl make vids wich isn't exactly costly and is funded by subscribers.

- 8 years? do u really believe that? To do everything Chris has promised they'd need 30 years at their current develoment speed (or lack theroff).

- Yes, SQ42 HAS to launch in 2017 or this project is officially dead. U know the funny part about that? Right after SQ42 launches the project will be dead anyways. They have such a barebones part 1 planned that it will leave a foul taste in 90% of the backers. It will be boring, repetitive and buggy (borderline unplayable). Mark my words.

- They have no financial reserves that we know off (barring funding from non-backer sources). they already depleted those and are running at fumes atm. Ask any person with financial occupation/education. (and yes, i am an accountant)

- CR needs a kick in the ass and a reality check. CR is the biggest liability to this project along with his dollar sign obsessed wife. His perfectionism is what is killing this project. The only way i see star citizen become a reality is a rerun of the freelancer story.

tldr: This ship is sinking fast atm and the only thing that can save it is Chris knocking his head on something hard and actually start producing a game as it should or he getting canned or selling SC. Backer trust is at an all-time low and that will never recover as they have nothing to release and gain back trust. (even when sq42 part releases that will not be enough as most will see that its a quick, crappy, boring game they released to gain more funds)

Indeed. I wrote an entire blog about the fact that the funding chart is bogus (I have irrefutable evidence; but on the advice of counsel, we opted not to make it public at this time) and designed to show financial health and interest in the project. They have less money than they are leading the backers and public to believe. Hence all the recent funding raising shenanigans. The double-edged sword in all this is that it's going to combat back to bite them in the ass at some point, because the larger the amount they show the public they've raised - while not shipping the games promised - the worse it looks for them.

I seriously believe that they think they can limp long enough to ship something (we're hearing prelude) of SQ42, while "launching" Star Citizen MVP. I just don't see that happening.

This whole year, they have failed to produce anything tangible, let alone worthy of "progress". This is another reason (aside from the liability of having promised it) why, all of a sudden, stand-alone Star Marine was back on the menu, even after it was shit-canned, Chris saying people were already playing it etc. It's hilarious to me that Star Marine is their year long "achievement".

I remember when everyone thought that 3.0 was a thing, included procgen planets etc - even though I raised the alarm and said that it was bullshit, and just more lies. Here we are, at year end, and they can't even get 2.6 out.
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: dsmart on December 11, 2016, 05:23:09 AM
The most hilarious thing (https://forums.robertsspaceindustries.com/discussion/comment/7338099/#Comment_7338099) coming out of this farce in a long time.

Quote
Cook: I haven't made a dinner in 10 years, please pay me money to make a dinner for you!

Customer: You are a famous chef so OK, how much money do you need?

Cook: just enough for 10 people, and it will be done in 20 minutes and be the Best Damn Meal Ever!

Customer: ok, that sounds great! here is enough money for 50 people just in case.

Cook: wow thanks...

*20 minutes goes by*

Customer: So where's the meal?

Cook: well, since you gave me money for 50 people, I decided to change the recipe and make a bigger meal, so I started over. It's going to take an hour now, but I need more money. It will be the Best Damn Meal Ever!

Customer: OK, still sounds great. Here is money for 100 people just in case.

Cook: Thanks it will be ready in an hour!

*hour goes by*

Customer: So where's the meal?

Cook: funny thing, we had a problem with cooking the recipe backbone, and had to start entirely over again. And we need more money, and it will take all rest of the day now. But it will still be the Best Damn Meal Ever!

Customer: I am getting pretty hungry, can I at least get an appetizer?

Cook: I don't want to spoil the meal, so I won't show you anything form the main course, but here are some broken crackers to munch on. Send us More money now please!

Customer: OK, here is money for another 20 people, will that be enough?

Cook: Oh we always had enough money to make the meal, just the more money we get, the more ingredients we can put in it!

Customer: OK, I will wait till the end of the day.

*end of the day*

Customer: So where's the meal?

Cook: *silence*

*the next day*

Customer: I am getting kind of tired eating broken crackers, where is the meal? You said it would be the BDME?

Cook: It's coming along great! But I don't want to show you anything or it might spoil it. And we need more money again, but now we won't be delivering all the ingredients, we can only put the Minimum Viable Ingredients into the meal.

Customer: I don't care, I am starving, just serve whatever you got please.

Cook: Ok I will give you a slice of the meal later today to snack on while we finish the meal.

Customer: for sure later today?

Cook: Yes! For sure later today! Also please send us more money for better ingredients, and cash only no credit!

*end of day*

Customer: So where is the slice of the meal?

Cook: *silence*

Customer1: This is Bullshit™

Customer2: The Cook never promised to give you a slice!

Customer1: Yes he did you idiot, he said it just 7 lines above this one!

Customer2: You can't rush a good meal! Stop acting like an entitled special snowflake-- oh look here comes the cook again, I bet he has our slice!
Cook: Hey, while you are waiting, here is a menu to browse through which shows all the ingredients we are working with, and estimated times for cooking. And please send us more money again, cash only no credit!

Customer1: well, that makes me feel better at least, here's money for another 20, thank you.

Customer2: I am sure we will get that slice, and the morrow tour, and 2.6 and 3.0 in the next 5 minutes because they probably were cooking them all at the same time!...

*Customer1 stabs Customer2 in the head with a salad fork*
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: dsmart on December 11, 2016, 06:04:28 AM
So over the weekend, this news broke, several outlets started writing about it; and I posted it on my Facebook page.

Remember that amazing video of the whale leaping out the gym floor and splashing down? Yeah, it was BS (http://www.theregister.co.uk/2016/12/09/magic_leap_neither_magic_nor_leaping/)

What does this remind you of?

Quote
Quick guide to spotting non-existent tech

Seeing as we haven't had many of these non-existent tech companies bubble up, here's a quick guide to help people spot one in future. If Company X is doing any of these, it's time to become suspicious:

  • Refusing to give a launch date.
  • Refusing to talk about the tech, claiming confidentiality or trade secrets.
  • Using news of investments or hires as evidence of technological progress.
  • Promoting itself on a big stage rather than in a small room.
  • Offering a well-crafted message and vision but becoming immediately vague when pushed on actual details.
  • Offering "exclusive access" – with restrictions.
  • Confusing working hard with making progress.

Also...Magic Leap: When Reality Hits the Fan (http://www.kguttag.com/2016/12/06/magic-leap-when-reality-hits-the-fan/)

Quote
Overall, I think it it is very clear that what they will actually make is only a fraction of he vision they have portrayed to the press. They may have wanted to do 50 megapixel equivalent foveated displays, use FSD as their display device, have 6 focus planes, or even (from Fortune July 12, 2016) ““light-field” technology essentially mimics the brain’s visual-perception mechanisms to create objects and even people who look and behave just the way they would in the real world, and interact with that world seamlessly.” But then, they have to build something that actually works and that people can afford to buy. Reality then hits the fan

Bombshell lawsuit reveals drama at Magic Leap, the secretive multibillion-dollar startup backed by Google (http://www.businessinsider.com/magic-leap-lawsuit-secrets-revealed-2016-10)

Quote
Court filings reveal new secrets about the company, including a west coast software team in disarray, insufficient hardware for testing, and a secret skunkworks team devoted to getting patents and designing new prototypes — before its first product has even hit the market.
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: Kyrt on December 11, 2016, 12:39:56 PM
Indeed. I wrote an entire blog about the fact that the funding chart is bogus (I have irrefutable evidence; but on the advice of counsel, we opted not to make it public at this time) and designed to show financial health and interest in the project.

As I said, if they are lying...or engaging in creative accounting...about how much they've fund raised, that would throw an entirely different light on their actions.

And yes...their recent actions do have a ring of desperation about them. But could also be explained away as normal cash raising. Melting ships doesn't bring in new money and selling at a discount for cash isn't unprecedented.

I'm not blind to what is happening.
I am not unaware of the possibilities.
That is why I haven't invested on the game. Assuming CIG are telling the truth, they don't need my money...and if they aren't, I wouldn't want to give it to them.

But what I have seen of the game doesn't necessitate malfeasance on the behalf of CIG or Chris Roberts. It could just as easily be explained away by a manager getting too excited by his own hype and making promises he can't keep simply because he gets carried away

I can accept this because my own time estimates on projects are often far off the mark. And have been for years.

That doesn't make it any more forgiveable, but I can understand it. Such things happen and if CR appears to be somewhat lacking in managerial skills, it seems to be Erin who is running the teams today, and from accounts doing a better job.

Now....if Derek Smart has irrefutable evidence saying otherwise, that may justify his opinion. I don't have that evidence, don't know its source and cannot judge its accuracy or reliability. That Derek Smart is convinced doesn't persuade me. Sorry to day this, but i'm as skeptical about Derek Smart as I am about CIG.

Barring any evidence to the contrary, I don't see much point in speculation.

I think CIG and CR are guilty of overhyping the game
I think they are guilty of continually underestimating the time required until a patch is ready for release
I think they are guilty of wasting time and funds thanks to poor management and poor communication
I think the funding model they have is questionable in that it provides investors who have no control and no input, while removing any business rationale to release the game.

But I currently think CIG is working towards release, that they want to deliver the game they have promised and that...given enough time and money...they are fully capable of realising their vision. And intend to.

And...barring creative accounting and inflated funds....they likely have enough of a reserve to deliver.

But I also think that the road to release is going to be longer and rockier than CIG suggest and I do not think the game will live up to expectations on release. It might still be a great game...but I think people are going to be disappointed because of all the hype.

Especially those who spent up to $15000 dollars preordering a $60 game and then realise they have nothing to do as they own all the ships
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: dsmart on December 12, 2016, 04:06:21 PM
Right. But all things considered, remember that awhile back he said i) they had enough money to finish the game ii) if funding stopped, they had reserves to finish the game pitched
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: Kyrt on December 12, 2016, 04:38:14 PM
Right. But all things considered, remember that awhile back he said i) they had enough money to finish the game ii) if funding stopped, they had reserves to finish the game pitched

And while recent statements imply that is no longer the case, CIG is slso continuing its find raising. If they really are still generating $30+ million a year they should be able to generate the funding necessary to finish it.

Maybe there is "creative accounting" going on. Maybe their funding figures include "melting" or whatever. Maybe their expenses are very much greater than the guesstimates I've seen.

Maybe the information you have is accurate.

Maybe.

I think crowdfunding a project like this has some massive advantages....but CIG has shown that there are some major disadvantages. Their model of continual everlasting crowdfunding creates a revenue stream that actually rewards non release of the product and removes the oversight and accountability of more traditional funding models.

If CIGs revenue reports are close to accurate....they SHOULD be able to continue funding development for the next few years, and that SHOULD be long enough for them to develop and release the game.

Eight years of development considering they had to rewrite the engine and setup studios? Seems reasonable. Maybe a little quick even at 8 years but doable.

3.0 out in 2017....4.0 out Q2 2018....more patches and beta testing and a year to generate and hand craft the rest of the 100 systems brings us to mid 2019. Maybe hold off until November to take advantage of the holiday buzz? That'd be 8 years of development.

And yes....I don't see any reason not to count the years work and development before Kickstarter. That type of work counts for other games.

Even if CIG can't increase speed now that their toolkit is relatively developed, 8 years should be enough to allow them to release the game in some form.

They have the people to do it. They probably need more closer to release to cover marketing and server support but they should have enough people to develop the game.

But none of this means the game will be any good.

And it leaves the big question unanswered...will they have the money to do so? Unless the reported figures are a scam...they probably do.
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: dsmart on December 13, 2016, 10:56:01 AM
Regardless of whether or not all of the speculation pans out, the end result is going to be that backers will never - ever - end up with the game they paid for and were expecting. I already gave the analogy of paying for a $100 box, and getting a $20 box - without a lid.

So it's largely irrelevant if they have the money or not to "finish" the game. Money can only get you so far. When you have insurmountable technical issues, no amount of money is going to solve them. And so far, I haven't seen any indication that they have crossed that threshold; otherwise they would have the framework of a "game" by now, instead of a glorified tech demo that's barely a mod.

Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: Narrenbart on December 13, 2016, 11:31:01 AM
[...] and a year to generate and hand craft the rest of the 100 systems [...]
That makes one complete system - Planets PG created - Objects placed on planets - Wildlife - SpaceStations - NPCs - Scripts - Missions - every 2.5 days.

The hype of this project is on an astronautic level ... every time I read the official forums I want to laugh and cry at the same time ... those peoples are so far off from reality that it hurts but CR loves it to much to be praised and play CEO and they will delay any gameplay stuff and development in general as much as they can to uphold hype and cash flow.
This "Project" will stay in alpha until the ship sinks and while it sinks they will sell more and more concept stuff to pay the wages for the CEO and his "10 top tier jobs" wife.

And when it's finally over and the uncountable companies have no money left, CR will move to the UK where his personal wealth will be untouchable.
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: Kyrt on December 13, 2016, 12:48:45 PM
Regardless of whether or not all of the speculation pans out, the end result is going to be that backers will never - ever - end up with the game they paid for and were expecting. I already gave the analogy of paying for a $100 box, and getting a $20 box - without a lid.

So it's largely irrelevant if they have the money or not to "finish" the game. Money can only get you so far. When you have insurmountable technical issues, no amount of money is going to solve them. And so far, I haven't seen any indication that they have crossed that threshold; otherwise they would have the framework of a "game" by now, instead of a glorified tech demo that's barely a mod.

There's likely not much that CIG can't add to their game nor many problems (if any) that they can't solve...given time and money.

We've already seen their tech demoes...and of they don't have a framework for the game, they've at least demonstrated that they can create the separate elements.

Those separate elements can be joined together, polished and improved.

I can accept that this is oversimplifying the process, but at the same time I haven't seen any indication that the assertion that CIG have insurmountable technical problems is true.

Everything they've promised has been done before in other games....and that in itself shows they aren't insurmountable.

Technically speaking....I believe the game they envisage can be created. Mind you, I think a lot of the decisions they are making are somewhat questionable. CR appears to be creating more of a life simulator with his attention to detail....but the difference between life and a game is that a game is "fun". I keep expecting them to announce an arcade game within the game simply to provide a diversion. ;)

But I disagree with decisions made in ED and other hames as well.

Technically...I think the game is feasible.
The question is whether CIG has the funding and stability. If they are missing some of the funding they've bragged about, if their expenses are higher than suggested, if they lose key personnel, if backers lose faith....then the game could collapse.

As for delivering the game as promised....what was promised was SQ42. We've not seen much of that so we don't know what state it is in. I would presume,however, that it will use many of the same systems as SC. Which is why the fact CIG still hasn't locked down the basic mechanics and flight model is problematic, especially given the potential knockon effect on ship design.

CIG still has a lot of work to do. I anticipate another 3 years of development...IF CIG want to deliver the game they want to. That won't be the Kickstarter game. Will they deliver the game everyone expects and wants?

Which is a FP MMORPG taking place over 150 handcrafted systems with FPS and Wing Commander style combat?

I think they can deliver that game. I think that CIG will need to skimp a fair bit of detail to make their release in anything less than three years.

Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: dsmart on December 13, 2016, 02:00:28 PM
And when it's finally over and the uncountable companies have no money left, CR will move to the UK where his personal wealth will be untouchable.

That's precisely what I think will happen. Which is pretty much why F42 in UK and GER are the larger studios; which are building the game. Both of the US studios are completely expendable.

(http://dereksmart.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/10/cig-studio-size-1-768x409.jpg)

There's likely not much that CIG can't add to their game nor many problems (if any) that they can't solve...given time and money.

We've already seen their tech demoes...and of they don't have a framework for the game, they've at least demonstrated that they can create the separate elements.

Those separate elements can be joined together, polished and improved.

I can accept that this is oversimplifying the process, but at the same time I haven't seen any indication that the assertion that CIG have insurmountable technical problems is true.

Everything they've promised has been done before in other games....and that in itself shows they aren't insurmountable.

Technically speaking....I believe the game they envisage can be created.

Technically...I think the game is feasible.

CIG still has a lot of work to do. I anticipate another 3 years of development...IF CIG want to deliver the game they want to. That won't be the Kickstarter game. Will they deliver the game everyone expects and wants?

Which is a FP MMORPG taking place over 150 handcrafted systems with FPS and Wing Commander style combat?

I think they can deliver that game. I think that CIG will need to skimp a fair bit of detail to make their release in anything less than three years.

No, none of that is going to happen. Clearly money isn't the problem, or they would have built it by now. Even if we accept that the funding chart is 100% accurate, also while compensating for loans, investor amounts etc, they've had over $150 million; enough to build two triple-A games. They haven't built either one. And what's astonishing is that nothing they've built or pitched, is original. It's all been done before. But yet still, they can't seem to build it.

I have no cause to revise my opinion that the game will ever be completed, let alone shipped in any form resembling what they pitched. They've already proven me right when I said they simply couldn't build the game pitched. And not even with $150 million.

Anyone who thinks they stand any chance of shipping a finished game - even an MVP - isn't paying attention. All the signs pointing to this project amounting to a catastrophic failure, are all there.
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: Kyrt on December 13, 2016, 03:41:31 PM
No, none of that is going to happen. Clearly money isn't the problem, or they would have built it by now.

CIG are building a game that in theory is larger in scope and features than titles such as GTA5.
They are doing so with less money....with fewer developers...and those developers appear to have less experience than other studios.
They started with one studio and have had to effectively develop the tools they need to build the game.

A smaller developer with a need to develop not only the game but its toolkit won't have written a game in the five years a larger, more experienced, better resourced team might expect to take.

CIG has problems in that they underestimated the work and time required to develop the game and the toolkit needed to develop it. They have problems in that they have a funding model that I find dubious...it has advantages but some major drawbacks as well.

And worst...they keep giving everyone vastly over optimistic release dates.
And yes, at least part of that is due to marketing and the need to maintain excitement.

Money...so long as their funding announcements are accurate...isn't going to be an issue. The issue is trying to develop a game with fewer resources and a more inexperienced team than other AAA development teams. That means development will take longer and the coding might not be as efficient. Not that it can't be done.

Money and funding will buy them the time they need to develop the game.

Quote
Even if we accept that the funding chart is 100% accurate, also while compensating for loans, investor amounts etc, they've had over $150 million; enough to build two triple-A games. They haven't built either one. And what's astonishing is that nothing they've built or pitched, is original. It's all been done before. But yet still, they can't seem to build it.

And given the information available....and your own arguments...I personally wouldn't expect them to have it built yet. Your own argument is that they have spent...wasted...a lot of money effectively rebuilding CryEngine. How long did that take?

The question then isn't what sort of development we might see after five years, but what sort of development and progress we might see after 2.

Quote
I have no cause to revise my opinion that the game will ever be completed, let alone shipped in any form resembling what they pitched. They've already proven me right when I said they simply couldn't build the game pitched. And not even with $150 million.

And by and large, CIG seem to agree with you. They have been very public about expanding their scope. And their backers know this.

I think they would have been better developing a custom engine, and then developing Squadron 42 and then moving onto Star Citizen...I think CIG have made some VERY questionable decisions wrt the game development

But you are arguing something CIG have already stated. They WON'T be delivering the game as pitched.

Quote
All the signs pointing to this project amounting to a catastrophic failure, are all there.

Yes. There are signs. I think you've made some very good points...but that you also overstate them. I think you and others have pointed out problems with CIGs communications with the backers and development. I can fully agree that if different decisions had been made...that if CIG had gone for a custom engine or if they'd staggered development of SC and S42 and so on...that they very likely would have more demonstrable progress than has currently been shown. I think that they have wasted time and resources and millions because of these issues and bad decisions and poor management.

But they have made some progress. They have produced some playable modules. Some ships and art assests have been produced. The engine and other tools have been created or modified. Not as much progress as they should have made...but still progress.

CR started this in 2011. He went for a Kickstarter on 2012. He promised a release in 2014...which was missed....but has since spent a large amount of time developing the game toolkits and engines. And yes....CIG have spent a lot of effort and time on fundraising and weekly videos.

I would expect progress to be slow under these circumstances...and yes, I suspect CR isn't that great a manager; at best, his decade outside the industry left him unaware of modern development schedules.

That CIG has little to show after 5 years isn't a surprise.
That they have wasted time and squandered money isn't really in question.
That there has been poor communication and bad management seems self evident.
That their funding model is somewhat dubious is stating the obvious.

But leaving aside your hyperbole, there isn't much to suggest CIG won't try to release the game they want. So long as the funding keeps up, they'll be able to take the time to solve any technical issue.

Star Citizen isn't a game that could be developed under a traditional model. It could never make a profit. Players won't spend $15000 on a boxed game.

So the only question is whether or not funding will continue, and at what level.

If it does, then CIG can finish the game. And if it doesn't...they could still potentially release a cut down version.

Now...you might have sources which give you a more accurate insight into CIG. If and when that information becomes public, I could change my mind.

But right now...it appears as if you are overstating the problems, just as CIG are understating them. But essentially...it appears as if CIG are making a serious effort to develop the game snd IF they keep up funding we can expect it to be released. Just in 2019 after 8 years development instead of 2014 after 3
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: Narrenbart on December 13, 2016, 03:48:36 PM
[...] If it does, then CIG can finish the game. And if it doesn't...they could still potentially release a cut down version. [...]
In this case I am very happy not living near any CIG offices, the whole amount of spent money and hyped dreams has created some very radical fanboys.
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: dsmart on December 13, 2016, 05:41:55 PM
This is hilarious. 2.6 in action

https://fat.gfycat.com/HealthyUniformLadybird.webm
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: Ash on December 13, 2016, 05:50:04 PM

CIG are building a game that in theory is larger in scope and features than titles such as GTA5.
They are doing so with less money....with fewer developers...and those developers appear to have less experience than other studios.
They started with one studio and have had to effectively develop the tools they need to build the game.

I see this time and again, and it now false. If you take development costs alone SC is now the joint second most expensive game ever to produce. It still number 6 if you throw other games marketing budgets into account.

Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: Kyrt on December 13, 2016, 06:41:38 PM
I see this time and again, and it now false. If you take development costs alone SC is now the joint second most expensive game ever to produce. It still number 6 if you throw other games marketing budgets into account.

That CIG report they have raised $130+ million does not mean they have spent $130+ million.

Further...it is also a bit misleading.

Of the money they have spent....they are supporting four studios. They have wasted what must be millions on third party contractors whose work they effectively threw out. They have hired major stars for voiceovers, employed huge amount of motion capture and so on.

They have also rewritten CryEngine which would have taken time and effort and money. Held conventions. Made video diaries. And so on.

Put simply....compare the situation of CIG with that of another studio. Say GTA5 since a lot of people use that comparison.

GTA5 was developed by Rockstar over 5 years, used three different engines, involved work by over 1000 people at multiple locations around the world and cost $140 million to develop and about as much again to market. This team...averaging about 250 developers a year for 5 years...was experienced and making use of established well developed engines and were engaged in a project of a type they were slready familiar with.

CIG have less money. So far.
Their development team is less experienced and hasn't built this type of game
Their development team is smaller
Their engine was unsuited and far from optimal for this type of game and needed a substantial amount of reworking
They are now working on "two" games...albeit ones with a very high degree of linkage.

Rockstar is believed to have spent $140 million over 5 years.
CIG have estimated to have spent $60-$80 million over 4 years...possibly more given the factors above. Much of they are known to have done....cutscenes, the engine, ships, conventions, hiring actors, motion capture, etc...is not necessarily development that would show a lot of onscreen gaming action. They would need the engine developed first.

So...they are trying to do more with less. That development has been slower than a game such as GTA5 is not surprising.

This...IMO...is a result of what appears to be poor management and communication, with decisions made that...although reasonable at the time...have hindered the products development.

They are a new studio led by someone who has been out of the industry for a decade. Mistakes are to be expected.

Of course, one could also argue that they have spent more on development. That they have spent over $100 million. Rockstar managed that sort of expenditure...no reason CIG can't have matched them.

My own thinking is simple.

Starting with an experienced team and a working toolset (yes, the engines were improved) it took Rockstar 5 years and $140million to develop GTA5.
CIG started with a botched engine, a small inexperienced team, no working toolkit and want a game grander in scope and scale.

I think they have wasted time and money. I think they should have gone with a custom engine once their vision and funding expanded. But having to develop the toolkit needed to develop the game would obviously slow them down. (Whether they needed to do so is another question)

So...if we assume the toolkit is now effectively finished (barring issues such as the netcode) then where CIG are NOW is probably equivalent to where Rockstar were in Year 2 of GTA5s development.

Either way....so long as CIG can continue to raise funds, it can continue to develop. So long as it can the developers it can work around any technical issue that comes up. As others have said, there is no 'impossible'...it's only whether it is cost/time effective to do. And CIG don't seem to care in that regard.

If the estimates are correct...Rockstar spent about $30 million a year on GTA5. CIG is raising about that much and their team was much smaller the first couple of years, allowing them to create a buffer. Its possible that buffer has gone...also possible they still have $50-70 million left.

Of course, CIG still have marketing to do and servers to set up. Both of which could be expensive. Especially since they need to market two games.

But the point bring made is that we can't judge the degree of progress simply from the amount raised. There are too many variables and IMO....given CIGs lack of experience and the problems discussed so far, including the engine...this is a game that will require at least 8 years to develop. Maybe less if CIG skimp on various systems and assets. And as such isn't likely to have mich visible sign of progress at this date.

The 3.x patches will add and expand the basic in game mechanics
The 4.x patches will presumably polish all this and add content, systems, ships, etc
Add in time for testing and fixing...easily another 3 years work.


Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: Lochness_Hamster on December 13, 2016, 07:40:32 PM
As my first post here FAU - is a Cunt

 :woof:
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: Van Steiza on December 14, 2016, 01:28:09 AM
This is hilarious. 2.6 in action

https://fat.gfycat.com/HealthyUniformLadybird.webm

Derek this is not 2.6, it is the current PU. Please if your going to post things like this at least make sure it's correct.

You should know this is from the 2.5(PU) considering you have access to the PTU as you yourself said.

 
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: dsmart on December 14, 2016, 05:29:44 AM
This is hilarious. 2.6 in action

https://fat.gfycat.com/HealthyUniformLadybird.webm

Derek this is not 2.6, it is the current PU. Please if your going to post things like this at least make sure it's correct.

You should know this is from the 2.5(PU) considering you have access to the PTU as you yourself said.

Pay attention. That shit still happens in 2.6 because, like most of the 2.5 bugs, it's still in there. That's why I tagged it as 2.6, seeing as that's the current patch build.

ps: Did you notice the UI by any chance?
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: dsmart on December 14, 2016, 05:40:20 AM
My own thinking is simple.

Starting with an experienced team and a working toolset (yes, the engines were improved) it took Rockstar 5 years and $140million to develop GTA5.
CIG started with a botched engine, a small inexperienced team, no working toolkit and want a game grander in scope and scale.

I think they have wasted time and money. I think they should have gone with a custom engine once their vision and funding expanded. But having to develop the toolkit needed to develop the game would obviously slow them down. (Whether they needed to do so is another question)

So...if we assume the toolkit is now effectively finished (barring issues such as the netcode) then where CIG are NOW is probably equivalent to where Rockstar were in Year 2 of GTA5s development.

Not true.

And nobody cares about whatever reasons or excuses there may be.

Comparing this dev team to any other is a non-starter; simply because, like in the case of GTA, those devs already have the experience to develop - and ship - a massive game.

With all their money, CIG neither has the talent, nor the experience to do any such thing. Thus the money being thrown at the problem ends up being wasted.

I have been in game dev for over 30 years; I know a lot of devs, both indies and triple-A; so I can tell  you with absolute certainty that the comparison is pointless and without a shred of merit.

And no, you can't assume that they engine toolset is finished, because you're not seeing any gameplay mechanics, let alone any aspect of the world being fleshed out. Heck, is was just this past Oct we saw a fake procgen planet - and they clearly said that it's not finished, and they don't know how much - if any - of that tech would ever make it into the game. How did you arrive - in Dec - at the conclusion that the toolset is finished? Heck, they're still screwing around with FPS, UI etc and as 2.6 shows, the netcode remains untouched.

As I wrote in my scoop post (http://dereksmart.com/forums/topic/sc-scoop/#post-5064) from yesterday, this whole year, and $36 million later, they've done fuck all in the general scheme of things. In fact, it's painful to even try and reconcile that amount of money, when you look at how much money crowd-funding in total raised in 2016 (http://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/2016-12-12-can-fig-ressurrect-crowdfunding-for-games). They are well on track to raise almost 50% of what all of crowd-funding did in 2016.

I have no reason to believe that they have somehow turned a corner and that, 2, 3, or 4 years, they stand any chance of completing, let alone delivering this game. SQ42, maybe. But the minute they release that, if it's not stellar, they're fucked. But it won't matter anyway since they were already paid in advance for all of this.
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: Kyrt on December 14, 2016, 06:50:32 AM
And nobody cares about whatever reasons or excuses there may be.

Quite true. The point however is that they do not appear to be simply stringing the backers along. There are reasons for the delay....

A better managed team might have mitigated the delay. Better choices earlier in development made have sidestepped some problems entirely.

But as a player....I will judge the game when it is released. Not before. I'm not silly enough to back this game for a JPG file as you say.

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With all their money, CIG neither has the talent, nor the experience to do any such thing. Thus the money being thrown at the problem ends up being wasted.

Which is what I've stated. You cannot expect the same speed of development from the CIG team because other teams are larger, better resourced and working with viable and complete toolkits and engines.

CIG has only reached a similar size in the past couple of years. They've had to essentially write or heavily modify their own tools. They've done so while engaging in a fairly large PR campaign...videos and conventions included.

We cannot expect the same speed of development as seen with other teams.

Quote
And no, you can't assume that they engine toolset is finished, because you're not seeing any gameplay mechanics, let alone any aspect of the world being fleshed out. Heck, is was just this past Oct we saw a fake procgen planet - and they clearly said that it's not finished, and they don't know how much - if any - of that tech would ever make it into the game. How did you arrive - in Dec - at the conclusion that the toolset is finished? Heck, they're still screwing around with FPS, UI etc and as 2.6 shows, the netcode remains untouched.

I'm not concluding their work on their toolsets is finished. As you point out, their planet generator is still v1 and while their engine has been heavily modified, there is still work to be done on it.

At the same time, the toolkit they have appears workable. The engine has been heavily modified. A lot of the necessary work has been done.

Granted, a lot of that work likely shouldn't have been necessary but still, it appears to be well in hand.

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I have no reason to believe that they have somehow turned a corner and that, 2, 3, or 4 years, they stand any chance of completing, let alone delivering this game. SQ42, maybe.

The question I am curious about is whether CIG can continue funding the game for the next three or so years. Is development going to continue?

Now maybe CIG has spent more money than people suspect. Maybe their expenses are greater than assumed.

But if their funding keeps up...can they continue to develop the game? Yes.
Given enough money to keep their developers developing, is there any technical issue they could not solve? Probably not.

Yes...they are squandering money to do so. Yes....their team size and experience leaves much to be desired. Yes...progress on the game...so far...has been slow.

You've pointed out a number of problems and issues with the game, CIG and CR. They strike me as reasonable issues that need to be dealt with.

But you also keep saying that CIG can't deliver the promised game. They've admitted that. That they've shown little progress to date. Which is true...but also understandable. That they keep missing release dates....which is true but which is also about the worst they've done. That the crowdfunding has issues...true.

So....given the need to modify the engine and create their tools and their continued change of direction as their vision expanded and changed, is the progress we've seen to date "reasonable"?  I'd say it slow....but reasonable.

You work in the industry so that gives you a different insight. But as I see it....CIG has problems. And progress is slow. Slow...not nonexistent.




Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: dsmart on December 14, 2016, 07:53:38 AM
Quite true. The point however is that they do not appear to be simply stringing the backers along. There are reasons for the delay....

Shirley you jest. Or are you talking purely in terms of why there are delays? Because, by all accounts, most of what they have been doing is specifically stringing backers along.

Quote
CIG has only reached a similar size in the past couple of years. They've had to essentially write or heavily modify their own tools. They've done so while engaging in a fairly large PR campaign...videos and conventions included.

That's all largely irrelevant because they are the creators of their own problems. There is no hand-waving that away. Just because they are having problems, doesn't mean it's somehow a plausible excuse for where they are. And the people doing the PR campaign, have nothing to do with development. So I don't see how that even factors into anything. We're not talking about an indie shop whereby, someone like me writes code, talks to media, writes up dev posts, go through marketing periods etc. So the PR bears no relevance to the dev work being done.

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We cannot expect the same speed of development as seen with other teams.

Nobody cares. And that's not what the issue is about. Backers expected the games. Back in Nov 2014; and with an 18 (!) month delay period. Both have come and gone.

Nobody was looking at the development and thinking that because they're not as big or as experienced as other teams, that they couldn't pull this off, let alone in any meaningful period of time. That's a very silly argument to make, let alone commit to writing.

To wit: They have raised almost $140 (!) million and still somehow can't make an FPS component with an engine designed specifically for making FPS games. And to think they were asking for only $5 million.

So had they folded back in 2014, the excuse would have been that they needed more money for the vision; but since they didn't have it, they couldn't deliver it.

What most people aren't even willing to consider here is, what would have happened if the money had dried up by Dec 2014 when they had only raised $40 million? Clearly Vision 2.0 hadn't changed by that point; and even with $40 million the best they had was the rubbish and buggy pre-Alpha 2.0.

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I'm not concluding their work on their toolsets is finished. As you point out, their planet generator is still v1 and while their engine has been heavily modified, there is still work to be done on it.

At the same time, the toolkit they have appears workable. The engine has been heavily modified*. A lot of the necessary work has been done.

Granted, a lot of that work likely shouldn't have been necessary but still, it appears to be well in hand.

Explain to me, with cited sources, how you arrived at that conclusion. Especially seeing the state that 2.5 is in, the fact that - as I type this - 2.6 isn't faring any better, and 3.0 is still pipe dream. Notably the fact that there is nothing in either 2.5 or 2.6 that points to ANY of what you said above.

* I wrote about that here (http://www.dereksmart.org/forums/topic/sc-scoop/#post-4483) based on what Brian Chambers said.

Quote
The question I am curious about is whether CIG can continue funding the game for the next three or so years. Is development going to continue?

Now maybe CIG has spent more money than people suspect. Maybe their expenses are greater than assumed.

But if their funding keeps up...can they continue to develop the game? Yes.

That's what financials are for. When you consider that in 2015 alone, a single studio (F42) burned through over $20 million (http://dereksmart.com/forums/topic/sc-scoop/#post-5064) - almost half of the entire 2015 funding, coupled with the fact that with neither of the two games completed, and at the current studio levels they are going to be operating in the Red if they can't raise over $30 million a year, you have your answer.

And that's why they are still trying to raise funds. If the funding - at the current level - stops, they simply can't finish the game. Do you really believe that somehow they have money in reserves to do that? Not to mention the fact that even with all that money, that studio still has debts (!).

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Given enough money to keep their developers developing, is there any technical issue they could not solve? Probably not.

Sorry, but no that's not how that works. Not in ECON-101, not in GAMEDEV-101. Throwing money at a problem isn't a solution. Clearly this has already been proven by the mere fact that they asked for $5 million for the games; then got $140 million - and still aren't even 15% of the way there. Heck, even 4.0 which croberts says is coming in Q4/17, isn't even 25% of the game promised. And that was when 3.0 was coming in Dec 2016. By all accounts, one would expect to see 3.0 in Q4/17 because they have no choice now but to focus on shipping SQ42 in the first part of 2017.

The biggest issue, aside from wasteful spending an wanton incompetence, is that they don't have a SINGLE person at ANY of the studios who has ANY experience building large games, let alone one of this scope. And when you're stuck in R&D, as well as learning process, the result is precisely where the project is atm.

Quote
You've pointed out a number of problems and issues with the game, CIG and CR. They strike me as reasonable issues that need to be dealt with.

They can't be dealt with because the project is headed by someone who, while his family and buddies are getting rich, is driving the project into the ground.

Are they making a game? Yes, of course they are. That's not the issue. The issue is that due to all the mistakes, wasted time and resources etc, they have now hit the wall whereby there is no longer the money required to complete the game. There is no way they are going to have another 2-3 years, and another $100 million to make the game. Back when I said that, with the right talent, the vision 2.0 game would cost about $150 million, I was actually being conservative. Here we are. And anyone who thinks that SQ42 is going to generate the funds needed to keep it going, in concert with backer money from Star Citizen, is a fool who isn't paying attention.

Quote
But you also keep saying that CIG can't deliver the promised game. They've admitted that. That they've shown little progress to date. Which is true...but also understandable. That they keep missing release dates....which is true but which is also about the worst they've done. That the crowdfunding has issues...true.

Right. Which goes back to paying $100 for a $10 box without a lid.

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So....given the need to modify the engine and create their tools and their continued change of direction as their vision expanded and changed, is the progress we've seen to date "reasonable"?  I'd say it slow....but reasonable.

Sorry, but after a year and $30 million, if all they have to show for it are bug fixes, a glorified shop for buying pants, a new base, and some ships (from previous years) made flyable - that's not progress when you consider the scope of work that's still left to be done. Then they went and resurrected Star Marine of all things. It's just filler because without it, their 2016 performance looks even worse. And from what I've seen and played of 2.6, it's going to be quite evident that even with $140 million, all they could come up with was a cookie-cutter FPS component that is no better than any of the many FPS games you can find on Steam Early Access. Heck, anyone who has even played something like Angels Fall First, can attest to that specific point of fact.
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: Kyrt on December 14, 2016, 09:23:32 AM
Shirley you jest. Or are you talking purely in terms of why there are delays? Because, by all accounts, most of what they have been doing is specifically stringing backers along.

Has the game been delayed time and time again? Yes. And yes...in that sense, they are stringing things out.

The reasons provided however...inferred and explicit...seem *mostly* reasonable. Even many decisions...such as that wrt the hame engine...which turned out to be flawed were arguably reasonable (to some degree) at the time those decisions were made.

You might raise questions about it, but even you say S42 using CryEngine was doable. Personally...I still think that if CIG made a decision to rewrite CE3 to the degree they did, they'd have been better off just scrapping CE3 entirely and developing a custom engine. But maybe they didn't think they could justify scrapping even more work at the time.

Given the need...no, desire...to develop new tools and refine the engine, the slow progress and delays seem excusable. I'd have preferred better management....better planning...to avoid all this extra work.

As it is...yes, there have been delays. But so long as the explanation behind those delays seems reasonable, most backers will accept that. That is what they backed...a game free from the pressures and demands of a publisher from a company willing to take the time to "do things right".

As it is....SC has been under development for 5 years now. 1 year of that before kickstarter. And after Kickstarter...it took a little time for them to select CE3,  fiddle with it, see the crowdfunding still going on, see that they could switch from the promised S42 to the way SC is now planned, realise CE3 wasn't suitable, decide they still didn't have enough money to develop a custom engine and decide to modify CE3 while setting up other studios and failing to communicate properly with their third party contractors.

I can rationalise away such a sequence of events and justify the slow progress shown so far. I can at the same time realise that CIG likely wasted a huge amount of time and money in that first year or so.

What would be unacceptable is if there are other reasons for the slow progress.  What would be unacceptable is if the progress we have seen to date is little more than a facade. What would be unacceptable is if CIG had a policy of slowing down patch releases so they can hype up ship sales.

It wouldn't surprise me, but the little I know of development suggests that IF CIG has spent a lot of time modifying their engine and creating their toolkit and dealing with third parties and so on...that suggests that the progress seen to date is acceptable.

Again...yes. A lot of money wasted. A lot of time wasted in the first few years. A good number of bad decisions made. Poor management. Poor Communication.

I can see lots of issues with SCs development and funding model.

None of which actually bothers me  because I'm not one to buy a digital asset of any kind, least of all for a game that might never release.

I'll back the game by buying it...six months after release, when the hype has died down, only when I can get an unbiased review and only if its good.
 


Quote
Nobody cares. And that's not what the issue is about. Backers expected the games. Back in Nov 2014; and with an 18 (!) month delay period. Both have come and gone.

I agree...nobody cares. The explanations CIG have provided are acceptable and the backers...for now...are willing to give CIG the time and money they need.

CR got more money than planned...expanded his vision...and that resulted in a need to modify the engine and create tools they didn't possess. Which resulted in delay after delay after delay. Planned for 2014...2015 at the latest...neither S42 (the original vision) nor the expanded SC has been released. Neither shows any sign of being close to ready.

And few who back the project seem to care it is late. At the minute anyway. There is enough open discontent that CIG need to release something soon. 2.6 and even 3.0 will only hold the dam so long.

Quote
To wit: They have raised almost $140 (!) million and still somehow can't make an FPS component with an engine designed specifically for making FPS games. And to think they were asking for only $5 million.

Well...Illfonics FPS components was apparently cancelled abd scrapped. The SM we see in 2.6 would thus be the result of a years development internal to CIG.

As for the money...yes. A lot has been wasted. Nor do we know how much has been spent, or on what. And CIGs refusal to follow up on transparency is poor

Quote
So had they folded back in 2014, the excuse would have been that they needed more money for the vision; but since they didn't have it, they couldn't deliver it.

If they hadn't had the money for the vision, they could've produced S42 using the CE3 engine as originally planned. A lot of the issues here appear to be arising simply from the feature creep CR engaged in when the money went to his head.

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Explain to me, with cited sources, how you arrived at that conclusion. Especially seeing the state that 2.5 is in, the fact that - as I type this - 2.6 isn't faring any better, and 3.0 is still pipe dream.

2.5 is in an Alpha state...2.6 SHOULD be out on Friday (or have they delayed it again?)...and neither of us is in any position to judge 2.6 or 3.0 until they are released. And even then...Alpha.

Your arguments have been enough to convince me CIG is in trouble. That it has wasted cash and time. That its development of SC is slow and so on.

What your arguments have not done is provide convincing proof of anything other than you think the game will never be released. That you think they have insurmountable issues because you can't see workable solutions.


Quote
That's what financials are for. When you consider that in 2015 alone, a single studio (F42) burned through over $20 million - almost half of the entire 2015 funding, coupled with the fact that with neither of the two games completed, and at the current studio levels they are going to be operating in the Red if they can't raise over $30 million a year, you have your answer.

Without seeing the financials, it is impossible to decide the running costs of F42. $20 million is a lot of money but how much of that was one off costs? At $140 million raised, CIG are also averaging $35 million a year. And they likely have a buffer on top of that in case funding drops.

Unless the reports are complete frauds, CIG are likely going to be around for another few years. 

You might argue that these reports are complete frauds. You might argue that CIG has squandered more money than has been estimated..that their buffer is low or gone. And you might be right. Certainly their recent cash drives do give some indication you might be correct

I can certainly agree there has been waste and poor communication/management.

But none of that says CIG are in serious financial troubles right now, or that they are on the verge of bankruptcy. We can also surmise that they'll be able to shed developers in Frankfurt once the engine is working to their satisfaction. we might even posit that their CE license might allow them to profit by licensing their modifications to other games or that possibly S42 might release in 2017 to open up a new revenue stream.

You say you have sources that lead you to your conclusions. I don't have access to those. And CR does appear willing to throw money at the game, solving what strike me as petty issues such as bullets cone from the barrel.

As it is...so long as CIG keep getting people to fund the game, they'll be able to keep developing it
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: dsmart on December 14, 2016, 10:11:46 AM
You might raise questions about it, but even you say S42 using CryEngine was doable. Personally...I still think that if CIG made a decision to rewrite CE3 to the degree they did, they'd have been better off just scrapping CE3 entirely and developing a custom engine. But maybe they didn't think they could justify scrapping even more work at the time.

I said it was doable for the ORIGINAL game that they pitched back in 2012. Not the Vision 2.0 behemoth that it evolved to.

Quote
It wouldn't surprise me, but the little I know of development suggests that IF CIG has spent a lot of time modifying their engine and creating their toolkit and dealing with third parties and so on...that suggests that the progress seen to date is acceptable.

Don't confuse "understandable" with "acceptable". They are different.

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Well...Illfonics FPS components was apparently cancelled abd scrapped. The SM we see in 2.6 would thus be the result of a years development internal to CIG.

Actually that's not true - at all. And there is nothing seen in 2.6 Star Marine which is the result of a years development. Aside from the fact that - this whole year - nothing of SM was even seen in ANY of their broadcasts. And Chris went on the record as saying that the SM people were clamoring for, was already being played in the PU. Did you somehow miss that? Then, end of the year, out of nowhere, there it was again. The maps, weapons, characters etc were all there before and are pre-existing assets. From what I know, what they did is akin to taking FPS components (weapons, characters, levels) built in one engine and using them in another engine. They're just assets. And they already had FPS components working just fine in the PU. It's not like they're going to write a new different FPS component for SM, thus having a totally different one in the PU. That would be like having a ship in AC being different in the PU. That's not how that works.

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2.5 is in an Alpha state...2.6 SHOULD be out on Friday (or have they delayed it again?)...and neither of us is in any position to judge 2.6 or 3.0 until they are released. And even then...Alpha.

2.6 is supposed to go out to the PU on Friday (https://robertsspaceindustries.com/schedule-report). Which, if they do make it, means that it went from dev -> QA -> Evocati -> PU (live) without any additional PU testing like they normally do.

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What your arguments have not done is provide convincing proof of anything other than you think the game will never be released. That you think they have insurmountable issues because you can't see workable solutions.

Speculation, opinions and analysis don't require proof (which is conclusive). They require common sense, trends, and analysis of the data at hand.

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Without seeing the financials, it is impossible to decide the running costs of F42. $20 million is a lot of money but how much of that was one off costs? At $140 million raised, CIG are also averaging $35 million a year. And they likely have a buffer on top of that in case funding drops.

What does the running costs matter? What's relevant is that it was spent. Also, when you consider the size of that studio, it's easy to see how the money was spent. And whatever one off costs there are can't even be a fraction of that because those tend to be on the low end since it's mostly furniture, equipment, software etc. Did you actually take a look at the 2014 financials? Probably not. And when the 2016 financials are filed by end of the 2017, then we'll know for sure. In fact, once the parent company files, we'll have a lot more data that even the 2014 and 2015 filings didn't show.

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You say you have sources that lead you to your conclusions. I don't have access to those.

I said no such thing. Sources are totally different from analysis derived from observing data and trends. All a source does is provide insight that serves to either confirm or dispel whatever is being speculated or opined.
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: dsmart on December 14, 2016, 11:22:10 AM
My fans at CIG worked my name into the Star Citizen latest lore (https://robertsspaceindustries.com/comm-link/spectrum-dispatch/15632-Empire-Report-Hyperion-Rally) in an anagram (Derek Tamras). Too bad they killed the post though

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Czp_PS5WQAAflCm.jpg)

Meanwhile over there, several threads (https://forums.robertsspaceindustries.com/discussion/361482/a-man-arrested) have come and gone regarding this.
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: dsmart on December 15, 2016, 11:28:11 AM
This is the most hilarious thing to me. So the other day I received a Quora notification about a Star Citizen question someone wanted me to answer. So I answered (https://www.quora.com/If-I-decide-to-play-Star-Citizen-now-what-is-actually-available-at-present/answer/Derek-Smart) it. I even tweeted (https://twitter.com/dsmart/status/809089454031994881) about it. Yet somehow, the tribe on /r/ds are having a fit trying to understand why I would write anything "positive" about the project. That just goes to show how far off left field they are, whereby they can't reconcile the fact that someone can still be truthful and objective, while at the same time having a dissenting opinion. Yet they wonder why we make fun of them incessantly. It beggars belief.
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: Lir on December 16, 2016, 08:25:45 AM
Hello,

Well, back at the OP, my thoughts are still the same :

_ Chris Roberts is a megalomaniac fool, absolutely incompetent at beeing manager of anything. He's the kind of fraud you find at any Cult head. A good talker.
_ Sandi Gardiner is a delusioned actress who found a way with this project to try beeing someone in the field . She has shown she's clearly one of the poorest actress ever seen, but on other hand we discovered how smart she was at using scam , brainwash and aggressive sales technics. She knows how to sell shit to people that's for sure.

I dunno much about the other execs, but maybe that some are genuinly thinking they are building something.
On other hand I have no doubt a good share of them are also drawn into the cult SC has become, and are totally unable to think the bigger picture outside of CIG's world.
And as for all the other employees, contractors, I do hope they know where they are and are actively seeking for a new place to go at.

This project has been full scam for quite some times now, this is why I find useless to talk about it like it was some developpers making a game. This is why I can't anwser anymore to the people trying to extrapolate with what CIG said and what they *may* be working on.

When this thing collapses and it will, one thing is for sure , it won't be some game company collapsing, it will be something else.


Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: dsmart on December 16, 2016, 08:46:54 AM
So who remembers back in Aug 2015 when they made all these promises for v1.2 (https://robertsspaceindustries.com/comm-link/transmission/14927-Welcome-To-ArcCorp-Star-Citizen-12-Released). Didn't happen. Then they rushed out and went straight to a hurried and buggy 2.0 (https://robertsspaceindustries.com/comm-link/transmission/15106-Star-Citizen-Alpha-20-Available) just in time for the year end backer stripping.

Go ahead, take a look at that 1.2 list of promises and count how much of that has actually made it into ANY build. That was over a year ago.
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: somedude on December 16, 2016, 08:59:40 AM
Hello,

Well, back at the OP, my thoughts are still the same :

_ Chris Roberts is a megalomaniac fool, absolutely incompetent at beeing manager of anything. He's the kind of fraud you find at any Cult head. A good talker.
_ Sandi Gardiner is a delusioned actress who found a way with this project to try beeing someone in the field . She has shown she's clearly one of the poorest actress ever seen, but on other hand we discovered how smart she was at using scam , brainwash and aggressive sales technics. She knows how to sell shit to people that's for sure.

I dunno much about the other execs, but maybe that some are genuinly thinking they are building something.
On other hand I have no doubt a good share of them are also drawn into the cult SC has become, and are totally unable to think the bigger picture outside of CIG's world.
And as for all the other employees, contractors, I do hope they know where they are and are actively seeking for a new place to go at.

This project has been full scam for quite some times now, this is why I find useless to talk about it like it was some developpers making a game. This is why I can't anwser anymore to the people trying to extrapolate with what CIG said and what they *may* be working on.

When this thing collapses and it will, one thing is for sure , it won't be some game company collapsing, it will be something else.

Sandi is an arrogant, money hungering b*** that has chased away many employees, including Wingman and Eric and has 0 talent in anything. She cant even do the marketing right. the only thing that keeps selling jpegs is the hope of the game being released and CR's lies. I really do believe she is nothing but a detriment to the whole project.
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: dsmart on December 16, 2016, 09:08:13 AM
They're all going down. It's inevitable and there is absolutely NO WAY around it. Like at all.

Meanwhile Shitizens still don't get how my plan works; even though I tend to use my social media posts as cited links in my blogs and statements. It's uncanny to me that people can be so dumb as to ignore the obvious. Kinda like my Quora response to Star Citizen (https://www.quora.com/If-I-decide-to-play-Star-Citizen-now-what-is-actually-available-at-present/answer/Derek-Smart) (over 1300 views to date) which has them in knots over on /r/ds because somehow they can't reconcile why I would even respond, let alone in the manner that I did. Because somehow, they are of the opinion that I want to turn people away from the project, watch it burn etc, this despite the fact that since it's pure and utter shite, my sole purpose is to have people try it for themselves, see that I'm right, then either run far away, or tell their friends to get a refund or run away. And those who do try and like it enough to spend money on it, will be part of the rage machine down the road when the collapse comes.
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: somedude on December 16, 2016, 10:27:33 AM
They're all going down. It's inevitable and there is absolutely NO WAY around it. Like at all.

Meanwhile Shitizens still don't get how my plan works; even though I tend to use my social media posts as cited links in my blogs and statements. It's uncanny to me that people can be so dumb as to ignore the obvious. Kinda like my Quora response to Star Citizen (https://www.quora.com/If-I-decide-to-play-Star-Citizen-now-what-is-actually-available-at-present/answer/Derek-Smart) (over 1300 views to date) which has them in knots over on /r/ds because somehow they can't reconcile why I would even respond, let alone in the manner that I did. Because somehow, they are of the opinion that I want to turn people away from the project, watch it burn etc, this despite the fact that since it's pure and utter shite, my sole purpose is to have people try it for themselves, see that I'm right, then either run far away, or tell their friends to get a refund or run away. And those who do try and like it enough to spend money on it, will be part of the rage machine down the road when the collapse comes.

tbh, anyone buying into SC at this point, with all the information available, deserves getting shafted. I stopped putting in money at the end of 2014 cause the signs where there even then...
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: Darklegend1 on December 16, 2016, 10:33:09 AM
They're all going down. It's inevitable and there is absolutely NO WAY around it. Like at all.

Meanwhile Shitizens still don't get how my plan works; even though I tend to use my social media posts as cited links in my blogs and statements. It's uncanny to me that people can be so dumb as to ignore the obvious. Kinda like my Quora response to Star Citizen (https://www.quora.com/If-I-decide-to-play-Star-Citizen-now-what-is-actually-available-at-present/answer/Derek-Smart) (over 1300 views to date) which has them in knots over on /r/ds because somehow they can't reconcile why I would even respond, let alone in the manner that I did. Because somehow, they are of the opinion that I want to turn people away from the project, watch it burn etc, this despite the fact that since it's pure and utter shite, my sole purpose is to have people try it for themselves, see that I'm right, then either run far away, or tell their friends to get a refund or run away. And those who do try and like it enough to spend money on it, will be part of the rage machine down the road when the collapse comes.

tbh, anyone buying into SC at this point, with all the information available, deserves getting shafted. I stopped putting in money at the end of 2014 cause the signs where there even then...

well thanks to their false advertising that shows game is coming "this" year very soon makes new backers drop some cash in form of starter packs but they soon realize the fact and stop pouring more money into it. but in this world there will always be some morons who have more money than brains and thats CIG's target audience and they are and will thrive due to them. :sandance: :sandance:
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: dsmart on December 16, 2016, 12:26:28 PM
I posted my holiday stream predictions earlier this morning on SA (http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3800238&pagenumber=131&perpage=40#post467453315)

My 5 predictions:


BOMBSHELL BONUS: They won't mention anything about i) no money to finish the game ii) on-going Federal investigations, iii) the fact that quite a few key team members have either recently left or have put in their notice (Dec being their exit month) to leave, iv) they are going to be down-sizing the studios in 2017

ps:

As of Dec 16th, with 2.6 still MIA and 3.0 still a pipe dream, these are the major releases this year since 2.0

v2.0 (https://robertsspaceindustries.com/comm-link/transmission/15106-Star-Citizen-Alpha-20-Available) (patch notes (https://robertsspaceindustries.com/comm-link//15109-Star-Citizen-Alpha-200)), Dec 12, 2015
v2.1.0 (https://robertsspaceindustries.com/comm-link//15137-Star-Citizen-Alpha-210), Jan 15, 2016
v2.2.0 (https://robertsspaceindustries.com/comm-link//15211-Star-Citizen-Alpha-220), March 4, 2016
v2.3.0 (https://robertsspaceindustries.com/comm-link//15268-Star-Citizen-Alpha-230), March 26, 2016
v2.4.0 (https://robertsspaceindustries.com/comm-link//15377-Star-Citizen-Alpha-240), June 9, 2016
v2.5.0 (https://robertsspaceindustries.com/comm-link/engineering/15490-Star-Citizen-Alpha-250), Aug 25, 2016

And during this period, these are ALL the Star Marine updates. Yet, here we are, over a year later, and they still can't get it working.

AUGUST 22ND 2015 (https://robertsspaceindustries.com/comm-link/transmission/14911-Star-Marine-Status-Update)
AUGUST 29TH 2015 (https://robertsspaceindustries.com/comm-link/transmission/14925-Star-Marine-Status-Update)
SEPTEMBER 19TH 2015 (https://robertsspaceindustries.com/comm-link/transmission/14961-Star-Marine-Status-Update)
OCTOBER 23RD 2015 (https://robertsspaceindustries.com/comm-link/transmission/15024-Development-Update)
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: dsmart on December 16, 2016, 02:19:21 PM
so much for 10v10  :bahgawd:

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Cz08x1GXAAEBjdz.jpg)
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: FragileAllegiance on December 16, 2016, 02:35:20 PM
About that Starmarine livestream thing: Any idea why the matchtimer skips by about 20 seconds whenever they switch from the US to the Europe team. Cant be lag.
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: somedude on December 16, 2016, 02:54:17 PM
OMG The mods on the RSI forums are deleting topics faster then i can read them. The forums explode with negative feedback about their kindergarten level of professionalism and they just delete all of it... I LOVE THIS...BURN BABY BURN!!!!!

Today will be the day they lose 50% of their subscriptions lol and 100's of backers will go for a refund after this (if they're smart). Man this is hilarious.

By their actions today, i think they jump started their final demise. Hell there where over 500 forum posts deleted from their forum and the next 15 minutes nobody even posted (would they have temp-banned everyone that posted negatively?).
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: dsmart on December 16, 2016, 03:28:43 PM
Backers will never know (http://www.queenbeeofbeverlyhills.com/ysl-ymail-black-tote-197699.html)

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Cz1FrknVEAAQrB_.jpg)
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: dsmart on December 16, 2016, 03:31:14 PM
Quote from: dsmart
I posted my holiday stream predictions earlier this morning on SA (http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3800238&pagenumber=131&perpage=40#post467453315)

My 5 predictions:

  • croberts will recite, then write a cringe-worthy missive asking for money, making excuses, making new promises for 2017
  • 2.6 will be delayed; and if they are smart, pushed into 2017. the schedule (https://robertsspaceindustries.com/schedule-report) will be updated to reflect this
  • they will play 2.6 Star Marine on local LAN because doing it across the internet - the environment it was designed for - is shite
  • no meaningful SQ42 reveal - of any kind
  • no meaningful 3.0 reveal - of any kind

BOMBSHELL BONUS: They won't mention anything about i) no money to finish the game ii) on-going Federal investigations, iii) the fact that quite a few key team members have either recently left or have put in their notice (Dec being their exit month) to leave, iv) they are going to be down-sizing the studios in 2017

ps:

As of Dec 16th, with 2.6 still MIA and 3.0 still a pipe dream, these are the major releases this year since 2.0

v2.0 (https://robertsspaceindustries.com/comm-link/transmission/15106-Star-Citizen-Alpha-20-Available) (patch notes (https://robertsspaceindustries.com/comm-link//15109-Star-Citizen-Alpha-200)), Dec 12, 2015
v2.1.0 (https://robertsspaceindustries.com/comm-link//15137-Star-Citizen-Alpha-210), Jan 15, 2016
v2.2.0 (https://robertsspaceindustries.com/comm-link//15211-Star-Citizen-Alpha-220), March 4, 2016
v2.3.0 (https://robertsspaceindustries.com/comm-link//15268-Star-Citizen-Alpha-230), March 26, 2016
v2.4.0 (https://robertsspaceindustries.com/comm-link//15377-Star-Citizen-Alpha-240), June 9, 2016
v2.5.0 (https://robertsspaceindustries.com/comm-link/engineering/15490-Star-Citizen-Alpha-250), Aug 25, 2016

And during this period, these are ALL the Star Marine updates. Yet, here we are, over a year later, and they still can't get it working.

AUGUST 22ND 2015 (https://robertsspaceindustries.com/comm-link/transmission/14911-Star-Marine-Status-Update)
AUGUST 29TH 2015 (https://robertsspaceindustries.com/comm-link/transmission/14925-Star-Marine-Status-Update)
SEPTEMBER 19TH 2015 (https://robertsspaceindustries.com/comm-link/transmission/14961-Star-Marine-Status-Update)
OCTOBER 23RD 2015 (https://robertsspaceindustries.com/comm-link/transmission/15024-Development-Update)

My holiday stream prediction score card:

Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: dsmart on December 16, 2016, 03:37:36 PM
The End Times are upon us (https://clips.twitch.tv/relay_sc/CarefulVultureCougarHunt)  :laugh:

this stream is a fucking mess (https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/comments/5iq77t/this_stream_is_a_fucking_mess/)

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Cz1PYYXVIAAKjvW.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/1NoJ33L.png)
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: dsmart on December 16, 2016, 03:47:53 PM
About that Starmarine livestream thing: Any idea why the matchtimer skips by about 20 seconds whenever they switch from the US to the Europe team. Cant be lag.

No clue. But it could be because of the latency between switching from one feed to the next.
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: dsmart on December 16, 2016, 03:56:39 PM
Foundry42's Phil Mellor stomping on equipment bought and paid for by backers (https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/comments/5iq77t/this_stream_is_a_fucking_mess/dba66uw/?context=3)

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Cz1TAulWgAA7T5W.jpg)
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: dsmart on December 16, 2016, 04:14:15 PM
Here's the diff for the 2.6 status change, showing what they've removed in order to release it  (https://www.diffchecker.com/rYjv1LLc)
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: Mehlan on December 16, 2016, 07:11:18 PM
 partially gutted it....lol and not sure yet, but while they say 2.6 ptu expanded to sub's, some scattered reports it's 'Star Marine' only...

"First part of the patch notes say PU is disabled right now to focus on AC and SM. Also says you have to restart the client after EVERY match of AC or SM or else you won't be able to get into a new game! Gonna be a long weekend!"


Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: dsmart on December 16, 2016, 08:46:33 PM
partially gutted it....lol and not sure yet, but while they say 2.6 ptu expanded to sub's, some scattered reports it's 'Star Marine' only...

"First part of the patch notes say PU is disabled right now to focus on AC and SM. Also says you have to restart the client after EVERY match of AC or SM or else you won't be able to get into a new game! Gonna be a long weekend!"

Yeah, Crusader is out, PU is disabled (https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/comments/5is41v/26_patch_notes/). They're going to do everything they can to say they "released" 2.6

Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: dsmart on December 16, 2016, 08:47:00 PM
Ah yeah, the anniversary of one of the greatest lies was today

Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: dsmart on December 16, 2016, 09:08:20 PM
(http://imgur.com/64eFpI4.png)
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: Narrenbart on December 16, 2016, 09:12:16 PM
Ah yeah, the anniversary of one of the greatest lies was today


Don't bother us with the pupil to planet stuff, obviously it's just a learn Cryengine in 3 days stuff.
The Shilisans just seem to have their brain washed to forget about 10 years of game development to cheer up stuff like Blendshapes, which CIG is selling as new innovation.
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: Saturn on December 17, 2016, 06:02:48 AM
I have been following Derek Smarts blogs for some time now and after the yesterday live stream disaster I have to say that it is pretty clear now that RSI is going downhill. When I visted RSI website for the first time I was quite impressed, however when I saw the crazy store prices for the ships I went right to google and entered "star citizen scam" lol. This how I found out about Derek Smart and the whole joke Star Citizen has become.

Back in the day, Freelancer was my first Space Sim and when I played it I was 13 and it gave me a lasting impression because it was really a cool game overall, the graphics were good for the time and the game ran smooth on mid spec PCs. Even my sister enjoyed it and that says a lot. It is quite sad that after so many years CR is relying on such obscure cash grab techniques to fund a game which can never be build because it is waay to complex, despite the fact he has proven he can actually create great visions for games.

At live stream yesterday there were so many WTF moments, like when they crushed a monitor and the chat exploded it was unreal I choked because laughing so hard  :haw: The problem is people at the CGI forum are completely out of touch with reality and expecting absolutely insane stuff. They envision not a game but rather a life simulator or something. The only way I see is to take Star Marine and Arena Commander - which are "decent" - and build a space FPS around them with boarding of enemy ships and so on on a large scale. Add to that the SQ42 campaing ynd you got a real game - maybe I would even buy that. But this is never going to happen because CR promised so much.

 
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: dsmart on December 17, 2016, 06:27:39 AM
Yeah, I watched it live and I'm still astonished. They've clearly lost the plot. Completely. Even my prediction score card (http://www.dereksmart.com/forum/index.php?topic=9.msg619#msg619) based on what I figured and what sources told me, was closer than I ever imagined.

The sad thing is that we were all hopefully for this game. I've done my best to educate people that this is nothing more than a scam and that there is never going to be the game pitched. So anyone still giving them money, or who hasn't yet put in for a refund, only have themselves to blame.

As I wrote here (http://dereksmart.com/forums/topic/sc-scoop/#post-5064), I can't wait to see Shitizens reactions when they find out what's coming next.
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: dsmart on December 17, 2016, 07:32:51 AM
So this massive thread was deleted: Announcing New Ships to Buy Shouldn't Be Celebrated (https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/comments/5iq8ay/announcing_new_ships_to_buy_shouldnt_be_celebrated/)
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: dsmart on December 19, 2016, 10:47:36 AM
An Open Letter to CIG from someone who actually cares (https://forums.robertsspaceindustries.com/discussion/362175/an-open-letter-to-cig-from-someone-who-actually-cares)

Hey Guys! I just sent a refund request! Do you think there is still hope? (https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen_refunds/comments/5izdaz/hey_guys_i_just_sent_a_refund_request_do_you/dbdcrpi/)
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: dsmart on December 19, 2016, 10:53:08 AM
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C0DLWLfXUAE0Z32.jpg:large)

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C0DLWLZXgAAAWdv.jpg:large)
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: dsmart on December 20, 2016, 08:58:52 AM
*moved*

It's going lower and lower...

(http://i.imgur.com/5k7BTmk.png)
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: Kyrt on December 20, 2016, 09:37:25 AM
I said it was doable for the ORIGINAL game that they pitched back in 2012. Not the Vision 2.0 behemoth that it evolved to.

Yes....and as I understand it then and now, the original pitch was for what has essentially become Squadron 42. A single player Wing Commander type game. The PU aspect of it was a stretch goal and has since taken over the SC title.

Quote
Don't confuse "understandable" with "acceptable". They are different.

I'm not. What is unacceptable is CIGs continued inability to provide realistic dates for public consumption.

Leaving that aside, the question is whether the progress seen to date is reasonable for a game of this scale and scope. Whether or not it is "acceptable" depends on what exactly has been done.

The usual comparator is GTAV. That reportedly took 5 years. But - they started with an experienced team in an established developer, a working engine and usable tools. Everything CIG did not have.

How long would GTAV have taken if they weren't an established studio? If they were a new team, if they were essentially building from scratch? If they also had to recode their engine and write up their toolkit? Probably a good bit longer than five years.

And yes...CIG has wasted a lot of money. They entered into contracts with third party developers that appear to have resulted in nothing. And I have the feeling that they squandered a fair bit of money as well in the days when it seems people were just throwing money at them.

But - leaving aside their hopelessly optimistic target dates, is the progress to date "acceptable" for a project of the scale and scope they have promised? Setting up those studios, recoding their engine, building their own tools? Not doing anything particularly innovative but building things their way?

Is what we are seeing a suitable acceptable output for 3-4 years development?

CIG have made mistakes - lots of them. And continuing to hand out unrealistic delivery dates is one of those. But that's also a sin others are guilty of. They have and are suffering from bad management and poor communication.

I would even say they are running a bit slow even counting all the excuses they have provided. And I think for all the plus points of their funding model, CIG also have shown themselves a good example of all the points as well. Principally, the loss of accountability and even need to publish. Given the scale of SC, I think CIG should have followed the same route as Elite; publish a viable product and then build upon it. I know Elite has issues, and it could be better - but it is still fun for me to pick up and play, even if only on a  casual basis.

2.6 for example has suffered repeated delays; it would have been far better - IMO - to have saved Star Marine for the major 3.0 patch instead of the minor 2.6 and get 2.6 out on time instead of rushed, semibroken and incomplete as it is. Of course, I also think they should have built a custom engine for the game and THEN used that to build the game instead of building the game and engine at the same time so who am I to judge?

But unless CIG blew all their money early on (which is possible - we've all heard stories about the one who won big and blew it all), then they should have a healthy buffer, especially with their continued crowdfunding efforts. $38 million and counting is what they made this year - unless they are lying about how much is coming in.
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: dsmart on December 20, 2016, 10:21:15 AM
I said it was doable for the ORIGINAL game that they pitched back in 2012. Not the Vision 2.0 behemoth that it evolved to.

Yes....and as I understand it then and now, the original pitch was for what has essentially become Squadron 42. A single player Wing Commander type game. The PU aspect of it was a stretch goal and has since taken over the SC title.

Actually, that's not accurate either.

Star Citizen (aka PU) was the original pitch. It was the multiplayer component. Squadron 42 was the single-player component. They were always separate games. In fact, that's where the whole promise that your SQ42 single-player character would be able to migrate to the PU, came from.

Says so right there in the original pitch (https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/cig/star-citizen/description).

Quote
Is what we are seeing a suitable acceptable output for 3-4 years development?

No. And not by a long shot; otherwise nobody would be having this discussion.

And it's not 3-4 years of development. It's 4-5 years of development. And it's 5 years based on croberts own public statements. Especially if he paid himself back for that one year from proceeds of the funding campaign as various sources have claimed.

Aside from that, even so, he promised a 2014 release date. So if you're saying that it should take more time, then you should be willing to accept that he willfully lied.

And it's gets worse...

Even after the scope was increased and acknowledged, he did in fact subsequently move the goal posts to Q4 2015, then Q4 2016. Then again to Q4/2017 (4.0 patch). And now, neither of the two games is anywhere near completion, and SQ42 - like Star Marine for a time - is now MIA.

Quote
2.6 for example has suffered repeated delays; it would have been far better - IMO - to have saved Star Marine for the major 3.0 patch instead of the minor 2.6 and get 2.6 out on time instead of rushed, semibroken and incomplete as it is. Of course, I also think they should have built a custom engine for the game and THEN used that to build the game instead of building the game and engine at the same time so who am I to judge?

That's the thing. They didn't have to resurrect SM and put it in 2.6. They did that because they had nothing significant for 2016; and also because croberts - once again - went public and flat out lied about 3.0 being in development and coming before end of the year. And just as I predicted and said they would, they are poised to release it to PU prematurely if they are to make their end of year goal; even though it's completely broken.

They somehow can't build an FPS with an engine designed for the genre.

Quote
But unless CIG blew all their money early on (which is possible - we've all heard stories about the one who won big and blew it all), then they should have a healthy buffer, especially with their continued crowdfunding efforts. $38 million and counting is what they made this year - unless they are lying about how much is coming in.

They don't. Wait for what comes next. I've hinted at this these past weeks, but can't say more than I already have. The project is dead. Period.
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: Scruffpuff on December 20, 2016, 03:35:37 PM
The usual comparator is GTAV. That reportedly took 5 years. But - they started with an experienced team in an established developer, a working engine and usable tools. Everything CIG did not have.

How long would GTAV have taken if they weren't an established studio? If they were a new team, if they were essentially building from scratch? If they also had to recode their engine and write up their toolkit? Probably a good bit longer than five years.

But - leaving aside their hopelessly optimistic target dates, is the progress to date "acceptable" for a project of the scale and scope they have promised? Setting up those studios, recoding their engine, building their own tools? Not doing anything particularly innovative but building things their way?

Here you hit upon the crux of the issue.  You presented it here as a partial defense of their progress, but I'd like you to consider it from a different angle.  Chris Roberts placed himself, first and foremost, as a seasoned and successful game developer who knew exactly how to make this game.  It was his genius, his vision, and his experience in the industry that was going to rocket this project to completion.  Chris himself figured it would be done in 2014.

He tied his name to this project to assure backers that their cash was well in hand.  Backers who were unaware of his string of failures over the years, each of which played out, note for note, exactly how Star Citizen played out.  The reality is that Chris has no idea what he's doing - absolutely none.  He was an unskilled, untalented, untrustworthy steward of backer cash - and above all, he was disrespectful of the faith that was placed in him.  He used that money to direct actors in motion capture sessions before they had a game to place the motion capture in.  Before the engine was even locked down.  Before the physics worked, before spaceships could fly - even before the basic game loop was designed.

But you bet your ass he was in those motion capture studios - because that's all he ever cared about.  Making a "movie" and pretending to be a film director.  That's where the backer money went.

Even had he stuck to that as his top priority we could have had a game by now, if he hadn't meddled in every single aspect of development with his late-80's early-90's design methodology, showing a deep ignorance of every single gaming lesson learned over the last few decades.  According to Chris, CIG "invented" the <<USE>> key (contextual key in nearly every game in history), the concept of saving your character's progress (almost goes back to the dawn of gaming), something called "subsumption AI" (which is supposed to be how crowds of AI navigate each other, visible working flawlessly in Assassin's Creed but certainly not in Star Citizen), and countless other examples where he can't get even the most basic design principles nailed down - yet when he "comes up with" some sort of trope that actually does something, he claims to have invented it, then he builds it the worst way anyway.

There is no example in gaming history where someone so unqualified was given so much to build so little.  Even Daikatana technically functioned as a game.

Shooting for the stars isn't automatically a noble endeavor.  If you don't have a plan for reaching them, you don't have qualified pilots, and you don't understand physics, then shooting people into space with the unparalleled ineptitude of Chris Roberts isn't "noble" - it's murder.  Chris Roberts is like a guy who walks up to a guy on the street with a gunshot would claiming "I'm a doctor", then nicks an artery trying to dig the bullet out, killing the victim.  Then he walks away with his nose in the air, convinced he's untouchable because he "aimed high."  Chris is not absolved of guilt because he aimed high - he's needs to be qualified to take that shot.  He's not.

He misrepresented who he was and what he could accomplish, took over a hundred million dollars, and squandered it.  He was irresponsible with backer money, and that's why the concept of "having to build everything, even the tools, from scratch" was never overly communicated.  The overarching message the whole time was, "I'm Chris Roberts, gaming legend.  I got this.  I'll do it all better than the publishers" even though from day one he had no idea whatsoever what he was doing.  That's tantamount to fraud.  So I don't give him a pass on having to do extra work up front.  Even if he'd listened to 25% of the lessons of gaming development history, we'd be playing something right now.
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: Narrenbart on December 20, 2016, 04:06:49 PM
There are so many things wrong with this Project, starting with the marketing which is rendering EA as a little innocent schoolgirl, up to all the stuff they "innovate" like the new Damage model (which is vertex color masks) or "subsumption" or (no)64Bit and all the white knights are cheering.

Dreams that maybe look nice on paper (they are thinking of orbiting planets) which are nice until someones $2500 ship has been destroyed because a planet just came along when he was AFK.
Rotating and orbiting planets ... with physic bodies on them ... thousands of physic bodies on a sphere ... on a rotating and orbiti ... I just don't want anymore ...
Instances that grew and shrink ... in a 6DOF environment ... with transitions between them ... dynamically ....
NPCs with own personality ... with a PC to NPC ration of  1 to 9 ... that are doing stuff when nobody is watching (in case someone will watch soon) ... that have to be handled by the server exact as PCs network wise only with AI ... AI with personality ...

Can this stuff be done? - Yes, if you do it step by step and if you do it very very clean, have 20+ years and almost unlimited ressources.

Can this be done by using the Frankenengine with hack jobs just to show stuff, building the base on bugs and hack other bugs "invisible" because you can't fix them without creating 5 other - No fucking way - not in 100years.

5 years of pre alpha but as an ex Conitec and ex SOE Dev I may just not understand game Star Citizen Development.
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: dsmart on December 20, 2016, 04:13:44 PM
meanwhile, over there: Is Derek Smart right (https://forums.anandtech.com/threads/is-derek-smart-right.2493837/page-10#post-38641176)

Quote
I think that the article is correct in comparing the project to No Man's Sky, and that in fact the scale of the fallout for this project is likely to be even worse because of all the backer money tied to it. Of course, because of the unique funding model, the fallout will take a different form.

Take the Holiday Livestream from a few days ago as an example. It was one of the most embarrassing displays I have ever seen from a "AAA" videogame developer. And I don't just mean in terms of all the technical shortcomings, the garish costumes, the extended periods of dead air, the cringeworthy dialogue and tedious interviews. I mean in terms of the disconnect between what the user base expected and what CIG delivered.

What occurred was a rolling cascade of expectation that began earlier in the year in the lead up to Gamescom. At the time, people had a lot of questions about what direction the game was taking. The AtV's and RtV's were filled to the brim with minutia about character and ship models but light on information regarding actual gameplay for SC, not to mention the complete void of details on SQ42 . People in the community began to anticipate E3 and Gamescom for answers to many of these questions. Then news came out that CIG would be skipping E3 this year. So focus centered on Gamescom. Keep in mind, Gamescom is 8 months into the year, and during all that time people were hungry to see what CIG had in the oven.

Gamescom delivers with the 3.0 demo. But it also came with Chris's stated expectation that 3.0 would be ready by December 2016. In addition to this, no SQ42. But ok, maybe CIG is saving that for CitizenCon. So people start to defer their expectations for SQ42 to CitizenCon.

CitizenCon comes, and SQ42 is again a no show. People flew out from all over the country to what was ultimately a meager showing with a demo that was more or less a repeat of Gamescom but not as interesting. The backers were pissed off and disappointed. In order to mitigate the disappointment, CIG puts out a mini-doc showing that they were days away from completing the SQ42 Verticle Slice, but it just didn't come together in time. So now expectations are differed yet again, this time to the Anniversary Stream.

Anniversary Stream comes. No SQ42.

There is only one substantial stream left in the year, the Holiday Stream. The final deferral left. After that, it's another 8 month wait until the next Gamescom.

Minutes before going live, Chris puts out an email saying that the SQ42 VS is not only not going to be there, but that the entire demo has been scrapped entirely. Something that only a couple months earlier they said was days away is now gone (a repetition of what had happened with Star Marine at the start of the year). It also becomes evident that 3.0 is nowhere near ready, even though CIG's last word on the topic was the expected 2016 release. The bubble of expectation bursts, and is continuing to burst, all over the reddit and official forum. The backers are utterly gobsmacked. It's worth noting that the show was not substantially worse than the Anniversary stream in terms of content, but because of the deferred expectations cascade, the fallout has been an order of magnitude larger.

This is what I mean when I say that Star Citizen flopping might take a form that is different from NMS. For NMS, a game was released which forced people to reconcile the reality of the product with the expectations that were built up beforehand. For SC, a game may or may not come out in 2017, but they are dependent on their backers continuing to believe in the dream to stay afloat, and this belief is becoming more precarious and disconnected as time goes on. You can only defer expectations for so long.
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: Kyrt on December 20, 2016, 04:36:49 PM
Here you hit upon the crux of the issue.  You presented it here as a partial defense of their progress, but I'd like you to consider it from a different angle.  Chris Roberts placed himself, first and foremost, as a seasoned and successful game developer who knew exactly how to make this game.  It was his genius, his vision, and his experience in the industry that was going to rocket this project to completion.  Chris himself figured it would be done in 2014.

To be honest.....I love the vision and ideas Chris Roberts has presented. I love the game that he has pitched.

But everything I see and hear about the project....and that may or may not be true or exaggerated....tells me he isn't well suited to be leading this project. He has been trading on his reputation as the man behind Wing Commander for over 20 years now but he hasn't had the same level of success or impact since then.

With Star Citizen he has a great vision.....but to date, if what I hear and read is true, he hasn't really been an effective manager and it was only when Erin took over much of the management that any meaningful progress started to be made.

Quote
There is no example in gaming history where someone so unqualified was given so much to build so little.  Even Daikatana technically functioned as a game.

Daikatana and Ion Storm actually show a neat patallel to Star Citizen. An ambitious game written by a new studio continually in a state of flux with delay after delay and missed release date after missed release date as new systems and technologies such as the game engines were changed and adapted. Instead of taking seven months of development, it ended up taking 35....five times as long...and the game was still seen as 'flawed'.

And rightly so.

Star Citizen seems to be following pretty much tne same path.

The only question seems to be if CIG can sustain the funding necessary to continue development and...if it can...whether the finished game will be any good.

Whether or not Roberts needed to reinvent the wheel by creating custom tools is beside the point. He has convinced his backers that they were needed to fulfil his vision and he has spent much of the past few years developing them. And no doubt he will spend the next few years refining them. And he has used that need as an excuse for the relative lack of progress.

Did he need to create those tools? I honestly couldn't say. Are they better than the existing tools or better suited to his needs? Again...I don't know. Maybe the time spent on creating them will turn out to be worth it. I personally suspect that any benefit over existing tools will be marginal in most aspects.

But the truth is....CIG has spent time developing those tools and reworking CryEngine. And that is time CIG could not use developing the actual game. And knowing this...many backers are prepared to overlook the relative lack of progress.

But now that CIG has demonstrated that it has the tools, it is also going to have to accelerate progress to keep the backers happy. And confident.

And events such as that last LiveStream won't help them in that. CIG are doing a horrendous job in managing expectations, at least partially because of their funding model. I can easily see that coming back to bite them.

As it is....I am prepared to give CIG the time necessary to release the game they envision. But I can do that without cost....I haven't backed CIG.

**IF** CIG are telling the truth, they will release the game if funding holds up. With a full team, 4 studios, and backers willing to provide nearly $40 million a year...I can believe the estimates of another 3-5 years before release. Whether it'll be any good is another question.

**IF** Derek Smart is correct....CIG has already spent much of the buffer it may have gathered over the few years meaning any downturn in funding due to discontent is likely to be catastrophic. It will be increasingly unable to meet demands which will cause more backers to lose confidence and leave and soon CIG won't be able to afford to give refunds even if it wanted to. Development will be scaled back or stopped and the released game will not live up to the promise...if it is released.

And I can live with that because I haven't backed it.

But as I said before...I think they have more leeway than Derek Smart supposes, but less than CIG might be comfortable with. IF they can better manage expectations and provide concrete evidence of progress now that they have demonstrated their tech and tools they should be able to keep funding going at a level strong enough to support development until release. They might have to cut back on some aspects, and cut'n'paste a bit more wrt art assets to save time and money...but it should be doable.

And if it isn't...well, it'll be a disappointment as I love the concept and really want to play the finished version but I'll live. There'll be other games.

Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: Scruffpuff on December 20, 2016, 05:58:59 PM
Lots of words.

I wish all the backers had your reasoned approach to viewing the project.  I suppose if they did it wouldn't be quite as entertaining a circus, but then again, they also wouldn't have all this money floating around either.  Even if their custom tools open the way forward so to speak, I can't see them sustaining this level for much longer.  If anything at all gets released, I suspect it will bear little resemblance to anything they, or we, have envisioned.
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: Darklegend1 on December 21, 2016, 01:52:59 AM

 According to Chris, CIG "invented" the <<USE>> key (contextual key in nearly every game in history), the concept of saving your character's progress (almost goes back to the dawn of gaming), something called "subsumption AI" (which is supposed to be how crowds of AI navigate each other, visible working flawlessly in Assassin's Creed but certainly not in Star Citizen).

True. When 2.4 was about to be released CIG was like" this is a momentous update , a history in making and reading all that i was like what the fuck is this 'persistence' and then when i got to know that by persistence they mean that if i buy a pair of pajamas and then logout, next time i will login the game will remember i was having those pajamas..i was like  :psyduck:  :vince::psyduck:. And those motherfuckers had the audacity to say this is a major tech that they have developed .. :wtchris:.

Smoke and mirrors all over. also about the subsumption ai dont forget the outstanding ai of crowd in hitman games.
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: Stan on December 21, 2016, 06:23:44 AM
I have been following Derek Smarts blogs for some time now and after the yesterday live stream disaster I have to say that it is pretty clear now that RSI is going downhill. When I visted RSI website for the first time I was quite impressed, however when I saw the crazy store prices for the ships I went right to google and entered "star citizen scam" lol. This how I found out about Derek Smart and the whole joke Star Citizen has become.

Back in the day, Freelancer was my first Space Sim and when I played it I was 13 and it gave me a lasting impression because it was really a cool game overall, the graphics were good for the time and the game ran smooth on mid spec PCs. Even my sister enjoyed it and that says a lot. It is quite sad that after so many years CR is relying on such obscure cash grab techniques to fund a game which can never be build because it is waay to complex, despite the fact he has proven he can actually create great visions for games.

At live stream yesterday there were so many WTF moments, like when they crushed a monitor and the chat exploded it was unreal I choked because laughing so hard  :haw: The problem is people at the CGI forum are completely out of touch with reality and expecting absolutely insane stuff. They envision not a game but rather a life simulator or something. The only way I see is to take Star Marine and Arena Commander - which are "decent" - and build a space FPS around them with boarding of enemy ships and so on on a large scale. Add to that the SQ42 campaing ynd you got a real game - maybe I would even buy that. But this is never going to happen because CR promised so much.

Yep.

However I am bemused why many people think CR is a visionary. 

He copies things or churns out the same stuff most of us could if we were asked to think about a new space game whilst half pissed down the pub/bar and without having put much thought into it.

Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: dsmart on December 21, 2016, 06:49:38 AM
True. When 2.4 was about to be released CIG was like" this is a momentous update , a history in making and reading all that i was like what the fuck is this 'persistence' and then when i got to know that by persistence they mean that if i buy a pair of pajamas and then logout, next time i will login the game will remember i was having those pajamas..i was like  :psyduck:  :vince::psyduck:. And those motherfuckers had the audacity to say this is a major tech that they have developed .. :wtchris:.

Smoke and mirrors all over. also about the subsumption ai dont forget the outstanding ai of crowd in hitman games.

LOL!! Yeah, the "persistence" one was absolutely hilarious. I have been beating them with a big stick over it for awhile now (http://dereksmart.com/?s=persistence).  :laugh:

Those clowns took a legacy save/restore system and called it something else. This despite the fact that the game isn't even an MMO by any stretch. So retrieving player info from a dB is "persistence" now. It's truly hilarious. But when you consider their target audience that still keeps giving them money through all this, you have to see how it all makes sense.
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: Kyrt on December 21, 2016, 10:36:26 AM
I wish all the backers had your reasoned approach to viewing the project.  I suppose if they did it wouldn't be quite as entertaining a circus, but then again, they also wouldn't have all this money floating around either.  Even if their custom tools open the way forward so to speak, I can't see them sustaining this level for much longer.  If anything at all gets released, I suspect it will bear little resemblance to anything they, or we, have envisioned.

Oh - I'm not a backer. But even if I were....for this type of project, I NEVER EVER donate more than I can afford to lose. I "write the money off" as soon as it is gone. I might think the project is worth supporting...but I ain't dumb enough to think delivery is guaranteed.

My financial support for this project is limited to "I'll buy the game, six months after its released when the hype has died down and I have an idea of how good it is - and then, only IF it is in fact good".

The point I am making is that while I don't buy CIGs story as fully representative of their situation, I don't necessarily believe Derek Smarts version as entirely representative either. Either ones versions could be the full truth, or either could be telling us a story that turns out to be only partially true.

Regardless of what Derek Smart and others say, I do not believe that Chris Roberts and CIG are out to scam anyone. I think they really are trying to make a game that matches their vision. I think that...given enough time and money...that they can achieve that goal.

But - I think they are perhaps a tad out of their depth in what they are trying to do. With all due respect to Roberts assertion that he can make a greater profit from one fifth the sales of other AAA titles, profits only come along AFTER the game is released. The money he is getting now SHOULD be going towards what was promised...development of the game.

Does that mean I am going to get hot and bothered over designer handbags? Being blunt? No. Workers get paid and what they do with their pay is their own business.
Now - if there was deliberate fraud or embezzlement, that would be a problem.
Has there been wastage? I'd say so...but I can't say to what degree. If the estimates I've seen are accurate, CIG should have spent no more than $80 million to date. Anything over that could be dubbed "wasted"...but it would be impossible to say whether it was wasted through inexperience or "throwing money away" without a full accounting.
Do I care that CIG has shown so little progress to date? Not particularly. I ain't a backer and if the backers are prepared to wait, that is their right. I am curious about why they have shown so little progress, but the yarn about developing tools and reworking the engine seems credible - at least to a degree. I cannot however judge if such work was necessary, what benefit such work might bring or if better options were available. As I said before, my own feeling is that if the resources had grown to the point where Chris Roberts felt comfortable about expanding the scope of the game to the extent that he did, then he should have felt comfortable ditching CE3 and building a custom engine to hold his vision. There might be practical or financial reasons why this wasn't doable...but given the money and time he has spent reworking CE3, it seems foolish not to do so.

At the end, I think that CIG - assuming they aren't lying - are fully capable of eventually delivering unto us the game that has been described. But it will be years behind schedule (it already is) and there is no guarantee that the game will be "fun" even if it meets Roberts vision. He seems more interested in developing a "Life Simulator" rather than a game - and life can be boring. Realism is all very well, but it has diminishing returns in a gaming environment.

Three years of further development seems a reasonable estimate based on the assumption that their toolkit is working, even if it needs refining. 2.6 is out....3.0 by March - June. 4.0 by mid 2018...and then, if all goes well, they'll be in a position to only need to add content rather than mechanics. Mostly. Which leaves them placed for a late 2019 release.

Or earlier if they remove content. Chris Roberts touted MVP release for example. Or later if they have even more issues.

But all this depends on them able to fund that development time. Do they have a buffer? They should...unless they were stupidly profligate with their money. Which is possible. And if they were, that leaves them vulnerable to the backers.

But that's where the problems lie. **IF** CIG really were a few days away from publish the S42 VS, then they should have finished it. That so what the backers want. Some indication of concrete progress. That Chris Roberts saw fit to scrap it has led many to think that it was nowhere near ready to be shown. That it would have taken a lot longer than "a few days" to make it work. So either this was a monumentally stupid decision for Chris Roberts to make...to scrap the VS and tick off the backers to save a few days work when weeks had already gone into the demo - or <ahem> "Derek Smart was right" and the demo was nowhere near ready.

Neither option is good. At best, this illustrates poor communication from CIG. They failed to manage expectations, hyped the backers so they would continue to fund the development, and then let them down and made them doubt CIGs truthfulness.

So - do I think this game will be released? I think there is a good chance.
Do I think it certain? Not by a long shot.

I think what we will get is a MVP with extra features, systems and ships added as DLC.

Which is what CIG should have designed development to be in the first place.

As it is, I am still hopeful the game will be released as promised. I think it can be done...but I think that CIG need to manage their marketing a whole better than they have recently. CIG are looking at 8 years of development and $200 million of funding if this game releases in late 2019. That should be enough to develop any game - OK, DNF took longer.  But I can't really see the backers holding out much past another three years. I suspect their funding has already peaked.


Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: dsmart on December 22, 2016, 07:34:25 AM
The point I am making is that while I don't buy CIGs story as fully representative of their situation, I don't necessarily believe Derek Smarts version as entirely representative either. Either ones versions could be the full truth, or either could be telling us a story that turns out to be only partially true.

OK, I'll bite, which part of my "vision" do you believe to be questionable? The part where i) I said that the game - as pitched - will never be completed; the part where ii) I said they were actively now running as scam; or the part where iii) I said that they've run out of money to complete the project? Those, in fact, are the only relevant takeaway from everything I've written, because it all borders on those three things.

Quote
Regardless of what Derek Smart and others say, I do not believe that Chris Roberts and CIG are out to scam anyone. I think they really are trying to make a game that matches their vision. I think that...given enough time and money...that they can achieve that goal.

Again, you're misinformed. I have always maintained (it's in most of my blogs, musings etc) that I don't believe that he set out to scam anyone. Heck, I just stated the same thing on Twitter mere days ago. The whole thing devolved into a scam once it became clear that the project was going to take long, thus increasing the risk of collapse while running out of money. Hence the reason that all the desperate sales tactics only started happening this year and continues.

Quote
But that's where the problems lie. **IF** CIG really were a few days away from publish the S42 VS, then they should have finished it. That so what the backers want. Some indication of concrete progress. That Chris Roberts saw fit to scrap it has led many to think that it was nowhere near ready to be shown. That it would have taken a lot longer than "a few days" to make it work. So either this was a monumentally stupid decision for Chris Roberts to make...to scrap the VS and tick off the backers to save a few days work when weeks had already gone into the demo - or <ahem> "Derek Smart was right" and the demo was nowhere near ready.

The only reasonable or plausible answer is that I'm right. No demo, let alone a vertical slice, exists. You know, they spent so much time doing ship trailers - since that's what brings in money - yet, they somehow can't make a SQ42 trailer. Not to mention the Vanduul ship trailer they just aired during the holiday stream. How is that normal?
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: dsmart on December 30, 2016, 05:13:25 AM
(http://i.imgur.com/U5p29UY.png)
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: Kyrt on December 31, 2016, 04:43:21 PM
OK, I'll bite, which part of my "vision" do you believe to be questionable? The part where i) I said that the game - as pitched - will never be completed; the part where ii) I said they were actively now running as scam; or the part where iii) I said that they've run out of money to complete the project? Those, in fact, are the only relevant takeaway from everything I've written, because it all borders on those three things.

Will the game be released as they originally pitched? No - it won't. And they've admitted that. I don't see why you have to keep harping on about it. Would it have been better if they'd resisted feature creep, if they'd released the game and then grew it out from there? Arguably...yes. But that the game as pitched won't be delivered is of no interest to anyone. The question is whether the game they are promising NOW will be delivered.

Is this a scam? As far as I can see...there has been mismanagement. I can even accept a lot of money, time and resources has been wasted. But it also appears that they are putting in an honest effort to develop the game. I think they've made a lot of bad decisions and they are overly reliant on the crowdfunding model....but a scam? An attempt to defraud the backers? No. Do I expect CIG to fold suddenly, and Chris Roberts to throw his hands up and say "Nice while it lasted"? No, it could happen but so far, no sign of it.

Have they run out of money? So far, they are continuing to develop the game. We've not had word anyone is not getting paid. The backers are still throwing money at CIG - foolishly IMO, but it ain't my money. I could believe an argument that a lot of money has been spent foolishly, or wasted. But you've been spinning this lien about CIG running out of money for quite some time now, and they are still in business, and still spending. That doesn't necessarily make you wrong...but it doesn't convince me you are right either.

Quote
Again, you're misinformed. I have always maintained (it's in most of my blogs, musings etc) that I don't believe that he set out to scam anyone.

Quoting from above: the part where ii) I said they were actively now running as scam

Yes...I know you are saying "started out"....but I was talking about scamming people *NOW*. Any company is going to need business and is going to need sales of something to generate that business, unless they have some form of backer who can provide funds. CIG, by and large, do not. They need a continuing income in order to generate the money they need and the only thing they can really offer now is prepaid DLC and microtransactions. The only thing shady about this is the amount of money they are asking for these concept ships.

Yes - I know this provides an active disincentive to release the game. Yes - I do believe they have wasted funds. Yes - I think that developing a game on the scale they foresee will require a suitably large price tag as well...something well north of $100 million.  I think they have continually underestimated the amount of time and money a game of this scale and type will take. And when I say they, I primarily mean Chris Roberts who seems to be stuck in the 1990s.

But running as a scam *now* is not something I see  CIG are doing. They are aggressively raising funds, yes...and doing so in a manner that I dislike, but they have not made any secret of what they are doing.

The problem now is that CIG aren't building a space sim. They are building a Life Simulator. With a level of detail that is both unprecedented and unnecessary and - quite possibly - counterproductive. I am reminded of Brabens comment about "Space Legs" - making Space Legs is easy, what's difficult is making it fun. But CIG are adding a level of complexity to the game that - IMO - threatens to bog the player down in unnecessary detail, to strip fun away. The Multicrew mechanics, for example seems to be a case of adding extra complexity simply to ensure players have something to do. Calculating the trajectory of each bullet from the gun barrel seems to be a solution crying out for a problem...does it add anything to the game? And so on.

Quote
The only reasonable or plausible answer is that I'm right. No demo, let alone a vertical slice, exists. You know, they spent so much time doing ship trailers - since that's what brings in money - yet, they somehow can't make a SQ42 trailer. Not to mention the Vanduul ship trailer they just aired during the holiday stream. How is that normal?

This to me strikes me as a consequences of some poor decisions. Unless they decouple SQ42 from SC entirely, then the two games will be sharing a lot of material. Graphics, Engines, Lore....the Flight models. That means, until a lot of these issues are locked down for SC, they can't really be added into SQ42. At some point, Chris Roberts is going to have to lockdown SQ42 and simply balance around the systems they have in place. But I don't think SQ42 will be ready for show until they get the basic systems - such as the flight model - locked down for both games

And surely as a developer you should know that the team doing the trailers isn't likely to be the team working on SQ42 so to a large degree, it doesn't matter what the trailer team is doing.

As it is....I still think CIG are having more issues and more problems than they let on. I think they have wasted a lot of money. I think there has been mismanagement,. I think there have been a number of poor decisions made and that those have had a long term impact.

But are they out to scam the backers? No. There is a continuing effort to develop the game
Will it be the game they pitched? No - but they stated that was the case 3 years ago. So let the point drop.
Will it be released?

From reports, SWTOR took an established developer 6 years to develop, used 800 developers across 4 studios and cost $200 million
From reports, GTA5 took an established developer 5 years to develop, used about 500 developers across 5 studios and cost $130 million

SC has been in development since 2011. Five years now. But it was not an established studio, and its development team was small. Of those 5 years, only 3 could perhaps be said to have been used for serious development. And of the $140 million raised so far, not all of that money has been spent.

A game of the size and scope Chris Roberts is going for (NOW) will take years to program and it will take tens of millions of dollars. Likely hundreds.

So - it is not surprising to me that they have so little to show.

But - they have even less to show than I would expect, mainly a few tech demoes. And at least partly, this is a result of Chris Roberts hyping up expectations and vastly underestimating the time and work required. Star Citizen - as I see things - would require another 3-5 years of development before it would be released as finished. A bit less if they cut some corners.

But even were it to fail - that wouldn't be proof of a scam. If Roberts knew CIG was failing and still continued to sucker in backers with promises he knew could not be kept, that'd be a scam.
But Roberts being aggressive in his fundraising isn't proof of anything save CIG likes money.








Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: Scruffpuff on January 01, 2017, 06:04:11 AM
If you tell someone you can cure their cancer for $140 million, and there is no cure readily available, and you're not a doctor, and you have no degree or experience in medicine, but take the $140 million dollars anyway, is it a scam?

Is it a scam if you REALLY intend to cure the cancer?  Is it a scam if you enroll for college immediately after getting the money (along with using it for a limited edition Porsche and some other luxuries)?  Is it a scam if you fail half the courses and retake them? If you hire entire teams of people to figure out how to cure this cancer, and none of them know medicine or how to run a lab or even where to start, is that a scam?  Is it a scam if that entire team also wants to cure the cancer?

Should the patient hold out hope that he'll be cured simply because you took a bunch of money and told him, with honorable intentions, that you want to cure him?

Chris Roberts is NOT QUALIFIED TO MAKE THIS GAME.  He has no idea what he's doing, which means he stole $140 million to attempt to learn how.  Not to "make the game" - to "attempt to learn how to make the game" which is qualitatively different.
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: Kyrt on January 01, 2017, 09:02:42 AM
If you tell someone you can cure their cancer for $140 million, and there is no cure readily available, and you're not a doctor, and you have no degree or experience in medicine, but take the $140 million dollars anyway, is it a scam?

But that isn't what is happening...is it?

CIG are making no secret that they need money to develop the game, nor are they denying that the scope of the game has expanded greatly and changed since 2012.

Derek Smarts charge that CIG won't deliver the promised game is correct....and CIG agree with him.

Are CIG working to develop the game? As far as I can see....yes. Yes they are.
Have they made mistakes? Have they made bad decisions? Have they wasted time, money and resources? Yes.

You mention a Porsche in your reply. Derek Smart has also referred to homes and designer handbags. To which the obvious response is "So what"? People get paid and what they buy or do not buy with money they have earned is not a problem.

Now...if Derek Smart wants to make the charge that certain people at CIG are vastly overpaid...that'd certainly be interesting. If he wants to make a charge that Chris Roberts is using company funds for his lifestyle, he is free to make that charge.

But so far, all I have seen is the proverbial "nudge, nudge,wink,wink, where are they getting the money for that, huh?"

CIG is raising money to develop the game via crowdfunding.
That money has been used to set up a number of studios, to hire a large number of developers, and to fund various activities to enhance the game.

Believe it or not....hiring linguists to develop alien languages is not a waste of money. It might be a stupid use of money if the company could not afford them...but it could. Why complain about it?

CIG has made plenty of bad decisions in the past.
CIG continually seem to underestimate the amount of work, time and effort required to bring their vision to reality.
CIG has IMO wasted a good bit of time, money and resources

CIG and Chris Roberts deserve to be castigated for their failures in how this game has been developed. They should come straight out and admit that Star Citizen is at least three years away from release and that the final price of development...given their vision....is likely to be in the same ballpark as SWTOR, and likely greater.

But their failures in setting out and keeping to a timetable are not evidence of a scam. They are not proof the game will never be released.

If anything, it indicates bad management. Chris Roberts seems to think everything still operates on timescales from the 90s.

But is there a "scam"? Is there a wilful effort to deceive people onto parting with their money? Is there a conspiracy where Chris Roberts is laughing all the way to the bank....after hiring 400 devs and opening up 4 development studios and spending years to develop the technologies and systems needed for his vision?

CIG might be much shorter on money than many think. That the buffer many suppose they have might be smaller than thought, or even non existent. CIG are likely guilty of wasting time and money. They are guilty of continually missing their deadlines. They use a funding model that frees them from the constraints of a publisher, but which also disincentivises release of the final product. They have made a number of bad decisions and engaged in poor communication with their backers

CIG has done plenty for which Derek Smart should castigate them

None or little of which is actually unique in the industry nor evidence of a scam.

Will this game be released? I can hope so.
Will the game meet the current vision? I can hope so
Will the same be any good? I can hope so.

Is Chris Roberts trying to scam the player base? Maybe. But there is no evidence. He asked for money to develop the game and while development is far behind schedule, and while bad decisions have been taken, and while mistakes have been made....the truth is that as far as I can see, CIG are developing the game.

Is he taking the money knowing the game can never be finished or released? No...because there is nothing on his vision that is impossible. The main reason why such systems have never been used before is because they've never been deemed cost effective to develop. If CIG keep getting funded, there's little to suggest that the vision cannot bevome reality.

So, while CIG have admitted the game as pitched can never be released....because they've moved on from that...the game they are working on is very possible.

Given time and funding.

Now...maybe Derek Smart is correct. I certainly have my own doubts about CIGs ability to deliver, especially given their past record on management and their continued inability to set realistic release dates. But so far, I haven't seen any indication that there is any scam.

As I said...he is right that CIG can't deliver the game they pitched. But he never mentions that CIG have agreed with that and that the reason is not inability, incompetence, lack of funds or some fundamental dishonesty...but because their vision has grown, it has expanded.

So the question he should be asking is not if CIG can deliver the game it promised then...it won't....but whether CIG can deliver the game they are promising now. And if funding keeps up...I don't see any reason to say they can't.

Oh....the game will be years behind schedule and it won't have the same standout graphics that wowwed players in 2012 and we can't speak to its level of fun or quality, but so long as they can keep funding development there's no reason to think the game will never be released.

CIG have made plenty of mistakes and plenty that they should be hauled up on. I like seeing Derek Smarts point of view. I think he over exaggerates but I think he raises a good number of valid points.

But I don't see any evidence of a scam, and no sign the game will never be released. I see no sign it will be released either...but I ain't backing it so I don't really care that much. I'd like to play the finished product but I ain't gonna cry if it sinks.

But that doesn't make this a scam





Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: somedude on January 01, 2017, 10:41:24 AM
I see your points, but u are getting into a game of semantics here.

IS deliberately lying and deceiving your backers scamming? It sure as hell is. Or do u think CR is to dumb to not see that a statement like SQ42 is comming in 2016 is a lie even before he said it? If he is that dumb, he's the dumbest person on the planet.
And no, this is not an underestimation on CR's part. This is blatant lying in order to precure more funds.

And yes, some ppl at CIG ar GROSSLY overpayed. Biggest example: Sandi. An untalented woman with 0 relevant education/experience raking in a very big paycheck for..... what exactly? Scamming and lying, cause thats all she does (and chasing away employees). All just because she's the wife of the head bozo.

i dont believe the scam resides in the making the game part. They are trying to do that, but just fail miserably at it. The scam part is in their marketing.
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: Kyrt on January 01, 2017, 11:06:02 AM
IS deliberately lying and deceiving your backers scamming? It sure as hell is. Or do u think CR is to dumb to not see that a statement like SQ42 is comming in 2016 is a lie even before he said it? If he is that dumb, he's the dumbest person on the planet.

No....I think he has simply been out of the business so long that he still hasn't adjusted to the developments times and costs of current games development. As a result, he cobtinually underestimates both.

Being wrong is not the same as being deceitful.


Quote
And no, this is not an underestimation on CR's part. This is blatant lying in order to precure more funds.

What proof is there that he is lying as opposed to mistaken? CIG are running a very successful funding campaign.....but the main issues appear to be missed deadlines and the non appearance of SQ42.

Quote
And yes, some ppl at CIG ar GROSSLY overpayed. Biggest example: Sandi. An untalented woman with 0 relevant education/experience raking in a very big paycheck for..... what exactly?

Running a marketing campaign that has brought in over $140 million dollars.

Leaving aside the vitriol and hyperbole...how much is she being paid, and how much would you expect someone at another company to be paid for the same role?

Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: SteveBox on January 01, 2017, 12:04:24 PM
Because reality abhors a vacuum...

"Fraud is generally defined in the law as an intentional misrepresentation of material existing fact made by one person to another with knowledge of its falsity and for the purpose of inducing the other person to act, and upon which the other person relies with resulting injury or damage. Fraud may also be made by an omission or purposeful failure to state material facts, which nondisclosure makes other statements misleading.

To constitute fraud, a misrepresentation or omission must also relate to an 'existing fact', not a promise to do something in the future, unless the person who made the promise did so without any present intent to perform it or with a positive intent not to perform it. Promises to do something in the future or a mere expression of opinion cannot be the basis of a claim of fraud unless the person stating the opinion has exclusive or superior knowledge of existing facts which are inconsistent with such opinion. The false statement or omission must be material, meaning that it was significant to the decision to be made.

Sometimes, it must be shown that the plaintiff's reliance was justifiable, and that upon reasonable inquiry would not have discovered the truth of the matter. For injury or damage to be the result of fraud, it must be shown that, except for the fraud, the injury or damage would not have occurred.

To constitute fraud the misrepresentation or omission must be made knowingly and intentionally, not as a result of mistake or accident, or in negligent disregard of its truth or falsity. Also, the plaintiff must prove that the defendant intended for the plaintiff to rely upon the misrepresentation and/or omission; that the plaintiff did in fact rely upon the misrepresentation and/or omission; and that the plaintiff suffered injury or damage as a result of the fraud. Damages may include punitive damages as a punishment or public example due to the malicious nature of the fraud.

There are many state and federal laws to regulate fraud in numerous areas. Some of the areas most heavily litigated include consumer fraud, corporate fraud, and insurance fraud."

(Source: https://definitions.uslegal.com/f/fraud/)

There.

Make of that what you will.
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: somedude on January 01, 2017, 02:33:42 PM
IS deliberately lying and deceiving your backers scamming? It sure as hell is. Or do u think CR is to dumb to not see that a statement like SQ42 is comming in 2016 is a lie even before he said it? If he is that dumb, he's the dumbest person on the planet.

No....I think he has simply been out of the business so long that he still hasn't adjusted to the developments times and costs of current games development. As a result, he cobtinually underestimates both.

Being wrong is not the same as being deceitful.

Thats very naive of u my friend. Once, i would say yes, u are correct. But CR has done the same thing over a dozen of times now... Thats blatant lying.

Quote
And no, this is not an underestimation on CR's part. This is blatant lying in order to precure more funds.

Quote
What proof is there that he is lying as opposed to mistaken? CIG are running a very successful funding campaign.....but the main issues appear to be missed deadlines and the non appearance of SQ42.

How about the fact that he has overhyped his releases since kickstarter and they never show up on time? IF thats not enough proof for u, nothing is.

Quote
And yes, some ppl at CIG ar GROSSLY overpayed. Biggest example: Sandi. An untalented woman with 0 relevant education/experience raking in a very big paycheck for..... what exactly?

Quote
Running a marketing campaign that has brought in over $140 million dollars.

Leaving aside the vitriol and hyperbole...how much is she being paid, and how much would you expect someone at another company to be paid for the same role?

Sandi is officialy the head of marketing true. But that 140 million is DESPITE her, not because of her. She has been nothing but a detriment to the project.

I dont care what she is paid, 1 euro a month would be to much. Fact is she is not qualified for the job and she shouldnt be there in the first place.
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: mackjazno on January 01, 2017, 04:00:16 PM

Sandi is officialy the head of marketing true. But that 140 million is DESPITE her, not because of her. She has been nothing but a detriment to the project.

I dont care what she is paid, 1 euro a month would be to much. Fact is she is not qualified for the job and she shouldnt be there in the first place.

Not sure I'm following. So, if she was awesome at the head of marketing, the project would have raised 300 million?
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: somedude on January 01, 2017, 04:02:41 PM

Sandi is officialy the head of marketing true. But that 140 million is DESPITE her, not because of her. She has been nothing but a detriment to the project.

I dont care what she is paid, 1 euro a month would be to much. Fact is she is not qualified for the job and she shouldnt be there in the first place.

Not sure I'm following. So, if she was awesome at the head of marketing, the project would have raised 300 million?

More at least. Look, (this is my opinion only offcourse) all i've seen sandi do is screw older backers in favor of new money. Someone with a brain would've found ways to appease both old and new backers, thus not alienating a large portion of your potential income group. Not gonna go into specifics cause its a long list that everyone (at least those that been here since kickstarter)knows about and i'm lazy.
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: Kyrt on January 01, 2017, 04:11:35 PM
Thats very naive of u my friend. Once, i would say yes, u are correct. But CR has done the same thing over a dozen of times now... Thats blatant lying.

It's possible. And yet I know people who are just like that. Who - especially if they don't take the time to stop and think - will simply say what feels right. Chris Roberts experience as a developer...well, it's about 15 years out of date now.  He hasn't really been a developer for more than decade. He was out of the industry for much of that time, and even now he is more of a manager and marketer so he hasn't had the hands on experience that would conceivably give him the experience necessary to provide more realistic deadlines.

Nor is he the only developer or company to give wildly unrealistic deadlines or underestimate the time frame or resources needed to complete a project. Such problems have bedevilled the industry for years. One reason why so many developers are so loathe to actually provide hard dates. And this isn't an issue which just affects gaming.

Chris Roberts may indeed be lying. But simply being consistently wrong about release dates and aggressively fundraising for the game is proof of nothing.

So far...all that you can say CR is guilty of is continually underestimating the time required to get systems to a level that matches his criteria for release.


Quote
How about the fact that he has overhyped his releases since kickstarter and they never show up on time? IF thats not enough proof for u, nothing is.

He's overhyped the game. He has raised expectations for it.

Wow. He's doing what every single publisher in the world does. The problem of course is they do it when the game is near final release...he's doing during the alpha stage when things are much less robust or stable and more subject to delays.

You want to argue that he is a bad manager? I could buy that.
You want to make a claim that CIG has wasted money? I could buy that as well
You want to state that Roberts has made a number of bad decisions? That he has overhyped the game? That he is using a funding model that has questionable elements? Sure...I can go along with that.
You want to debate that CIG has run out of money and is running on fumes? I could see that. I don't believe that is the case, but I could see it.
You want to make the caser that CIG have underdelivered so far, producing mostly what can be termed "tech demoes" and engine rewrites? Sure. I've even made that argument myself.

But you want to argue that he is engaged in a scam...that he is engaged in criminal activity. That he is effectively defrauding the backers.
And the proof you offer is that - like so many others - his company misses deadlines for publication and overhypes the game.

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Sandi is officialy the head of marketing true. But that 140 million is DESPITE her, not because of her. She has been nothing but a detriment to the project.

Really? You could be right.

But leaving aside your feelings for her, what evidence do you have to show that this money came in despite her and not because of her? How has she been a detriment to the project? How much is she getting paid and what level of pay do you think someone in her position should be getting?

Quote
I dont care what she is paid, 1 euro a month would be to much. Fact is she is not qualified for the job and she shouldnt be there in the first place.

And yet her department is part of why CIG has raked in over $35million in funding in 2016. And the only reason why you seem to think she is overpaid is because - you personally don't like her for some reason.

Now I can't say that none of what you say is false. What I can say is that I personally require more evidence than "Derek Smart said so". Oh, I can accept that CIG has had issues. That CR has made some very bad decisions. That there has been money wasted and squandered. That the game has been overhyped. That CIG should be showing more progress than they have made. I think Derek Smart has made some very good points about what they are trying to do and CIGs responses to those have been - at times - counterproductive. I think that - to a degree - Derek Smart is right. But - only to a degree, and not necessarily in the specifics.

But inexperience and bad decisions and poor management and overhyping do not equate to "scam". That you do not seem to like Sandi Gardiner does not mean she is overpaid. Part of the fundraising drive is marketing....and CIGs fundraising has been very successful by anyones standards.
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: mackjazno on January 01, 2017, 04:18:03 PM

Sandi is officialy the head of marketing true. But that 140 million is DESPITE her, not because of her. She has been nothing but a detriment to the project.

I dont care what she is paid, 1 euro a month would be to much. Fact is she is not qualified for the job and she shouldnt be there in the first place.

Not sure I'm following. So, if she was awesome at the head of marketing, the project would have raised 300 million?

More at least. Look, (this is my opinion only offcourse) all i've seen sandi do is screw older backers in favor of new money. Someone with a brain would've found ways to appease both old and new backers, thus not alienating a large portion of your potential income group. Not gonna go into specifics cause its a long list that everyone (at least those that been here since kickstarter)knows about and i'm lazy.

Got it.  All the early on backer promises too numerous to count.  And pretty much made early backing no different than anyone else.  Personally, I just don't care anymore.  They got my money but I got a nice chunk back.  Now I just sit back and watch..

If only this game would have stopped at single player SQ42 and not gone into the bizarre stretch goal territory.
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: Kyrt on January 01, 2017, 04:20:37 PM
More at least.

To be blunt - that is a fantasy. CIG is bringing in double what other crowdfunding games are generating - combined. While I have qualms about the model, I can't argue with its success.

$35 million in 2016 was a marvellous result and one not matched by the marketing professionals at the other companies. CIGs marketing is doing something right to generate that amount of cash for the company, and Sandi is head of marketing. You might think she is unqualified, you might think she is a figurehead, you might think she does nothing but buy designer handbags all day but the simple fact remains...CIG achieved over $35 million of funding in 2016 and a large part of that is due to marketing.

CIG is generating a huge amount of cash for development already. CIG is very successful in this area. Arguing that anyone else should have been capable of generating even more - even when other companies fail to come close - is petty.
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: mackjazno on January 01, 2017, 09:37:32 PM
More at least.

To be blunt - that is a fantasy. CIG is bringing in double what other crowdfunding games are generating - combined. While I have qualms about the model, I can't argue with its success.

$35 million in 2016 was a marvellous result and one not matched by the marketing professionals at the other companies. CIGs marketing is doing something right to generate that amount of cash for the company, and Sandi is head of marketing. You might think she is unqualified, you might think she is a figurehead, you might think she does nothing but buy designer handbags all day but the simple fact remains...CIG achieved over $35 million of funding in 2016 and a large part of that is due to marketing.

CIG is generating a huge amount of cash for development already. CIG is very successful in this area. Arguing that anyone else should have been capable of generating even more - even when other companies fail to come close - is petty.


Agreed. And it's part of the problem.  But it's very real for lots of people still.  CIG upset many early backers because it's not their game anymore.  No more special snowflakes.  But from a marketing perspective they set themselves up for failure and disappointment.  They aren't going out to scale back the dreamers rather just letting them dream on.  Sometimes indirectly answering questions but mostly just saying "eventually" for whatever mechanic they ask about.

Take a peek at the Subscriber forum or the Concierge forum if you can stand it.   Glorious topics like "Pallet Loader for My Caterpillar".  All in the name of "immersion".  In a few posts, it went from a manual pallet jack, to a forklift to wishing for an Alien 2 style mech.  And don't forget, "grabby hands" will solve all.   When I think of a repeat gameplay mechanic, I don't quite think manually loading cargo for my Freelancer is going to be "fun".  More realistic?

But that's really marketing's job to bring on the hype and get new people to pre-order and the whales to continue throwing money at it..  Not to crush dreams.  The problem here is that the expectations just can not meet reality here.  It's been around as long as video games have been around.  I guess it is easier just to let people think what they want to rather than scale back expectations.  And the old "it's only pre-alpha" excuse. 
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: Darklegend1 on January 01, 2017, 10:25:31 PM
IS deliberately lying and deceiving your backers scamming? It sure as hell is. Or do u think CR is to dumb to not see that a statement like SQ42 is comming in 2016 is a lie even before he said it? If he is that dumb, he's the dumbest person on the planet.

No....I think he has simply been out of the business so long that he still hasn't adjusted to the developments times and costs of current games development. As a result, he cobtinually underestimates both.

Being wrong is not the same as being deceitful.

so in a nutshell you are saying CR IS AN INNOCENT MORON!!!! :laugh: :laugh:
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: dsmart on January 02, 2017, 09:20:46 AM
Will the game be released as they originally pitched? No - it won't. And they've admitted that. I don't see why you have to keep harping on about it. Would it have been better if they'd resisted feature creep, if they'd released the game and then grew it out from there? Arguably...yes. But that the game as pitched won't be delivered is of no interest to anyone. The question is whether the game they are promising NOW will be delivered.

Why do you care? Does it somehow trigger you? If so, how and why?

Quote
Is this a scam? As far as I can see...there has been mismanagement. I can even accept a lot of money, time and resources has been wasted. But it also appears that they are putting in an honest effort to develop the game. I think they've made a lot of bad decisions and they are overly reliant on the crowdfunding model....but a scam? An attempt to defraud the backers? No. Do I expect CIG to fold suddenly, and Chris Roberts to throw his hands up and say "Nice while it lasted"? No, it could happen but so far, no sign of it.

Oh, and somehow that means they're not running a scam? Are you serious right now? You do realize that many multi-national and multi-million scams were run by and within the confines of major corporations, right?

Quote
Have they run out of money? So far, they are continuing to develop the game. We've not had word anyone is not getting paid. The backers are still throwing money at CIG - foolishly IMO, but it ain't my money. I could believe an argument that a lot of money has been spent foolishly, or wasted. But you've been spinning this lien about CIG running out of money for quite some time now, and they are still in business, and still spending. That doesn't necessarily make you wrong...but it doesn't convince me you are right either.

How does people not getting paid, amount to them running out of money to complete the game? Please explain.

As to the money side, clearly the longer it takes, the more they will need consistent funding. And all the tricks they have pulled in the name of raising funds, are testament to how they are scamming backers in order to continue operations.

And if they weren't pulling those stunts to raise money, how exactly would they still be in operation despite nowhere near completing either of the two games?

Again: Back when myself and several sources (most who spoke to the media) indicated that they were running out of money; it was accurate based on the information at hand. That was a year ago. And during 2016, they have done a litany of unscrupulous (e.g. cash discounts, touting non-existent features, creating demos to show non-existent progress etc) things all in the name of raising money - which is precisely how they ended up still being around even with no game being released.

Quote
From reports, SWTOR took an established developer 6 years to develop, used 800 developers across 4 studios and cost $200 million
From reports, GTA5 took an established developer 5 years to develop, used about 500 developers across 5 studios and cost $130 million

SC has been in development since 2011. Five years now. But it was not an established studio, and its development team was small. Of those 5 years, only 3 could perhaps be said to have been used for serious development. And of the $140 million raised so far, not all of that money has been spent.

NONE of that is relevant because again, you guys (most of you in stealth mode) are comparing established and experienced teams and companies - who have released games - to one that haven't. Not to mention the fact that the game scopes are different.

e.g. COD: IW cost less than SC in its entirety. MA:E is on the way as well, and with similar expenses. Yet, neither SC nor SQ42 is near completion.

Quote
A game of the size and scope Chris Roberts is going for (NOW) will take years to program and it will take tens of millions of dollars. Likely hundreds.

Which is pointless and part of the scam because that's not what they sold backers.
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: dsmart on January 02, 2017, 09:24:24 AM
Because reality abhors a vacuum...

"Fraud is generally defined in the law as an intentional misrepresentation of material existing fact made by one person to another with knowledge of its falsity and for the purpose of inducing the other person to act, and upon which the other person relies with resulting injury or damage. Fraud may also be made by an omission or purposeful failure to state material facts, which nondisclosure makes other statements misleading.

To constitute fraud, a misrepresentation or omission must also relate to an 'existing fact', not a promise to do something in the future, unless the person who made the promise did so without any present intent to perform it or with a positive intent not to perform it. Promises to do something in the future or a mere expression of opinion cannot be the basis of a claim of fraud unless the person stating the opinion has exclusive or superior knowledge of existing facts which are inconsistent with such opinion. The false statement or omission must be material, meaning that it was significant to the decision to be made.

Sometimes, it must be shown that the plaintiff's reliance was justifiable, and that upon reasonable inquiry would not have discovered the truth of the matter. For injury or damage to be the result of fraud, it must be shown that, except for the fraud, the injury or damage would not have occurred.

To constitute fraud the misrepresentation or omission must be made knowingly and intentionally, not as a result of mistake or accident, or in negligent disregard of its truth or falsity. Also, the plaintiff must prove that the defendant intended for the plaintiff to rely upon the misrepresentation and/or omission; that the plaintiff did in fact rely upon the misrepresentation and/or omission; and that the plaintiff suffered injury or damage as a result of the fraud. Damages may include punitive damages as a punishment or public example due to the malicious nature of the fraud.

There are many state and federal laws to regulate fraud in numerous areas. Some of the areas most heavily litigated include consumer fraud, corporate fraud, and insurance fraud."

(Source: https://definitions.uslegal.com/f/fraud/)

There.

Make of that what you will.

Yup. I have quoted the "case for fraud" in several blogs already; but some of these people chose to ignore it. Yet wonder why I can blatantly call it a scam without ANY fear of legal repercussions because by all accounts and in our opinion on what they've done, that's basically the end result.
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: dsmart on January 02, 2017, 09:31:40 AM

Sandi is officialy the head of marketing true. But that 140 million is DESPITE her, not because of her. She has been nothing but a detriment to the project.

I dont care what she is paid, 1 euro a month would be to much. Fact is she is not qualified for the job and she shouldnt be there in the first place.

Not sure I'm following. So, if she was awesome at the head of marketing, the project would have raised 300 million?

She's not responsible for the game's funding or marketing. There isn't a single shred of evidence that shows that she - through marketing (considering the game has no marketing, this would be hilarious to me) - caused it to raise $140 million.

This is the same person who went on the record - back when they were hiding their marriage - as saying she didn't know what her title actually does (https://web.archive.org/web/20140103222149/https://robertsspaceindustries.com/comm-link/transmission/12913-Meet-Sandi-Gardiner). Then they removed that from the website (https://robertsspaceindustries.com/comm-link/transmission/12913-Meet-Sandi-Gardiner); but of course we have archives.
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: dsmart on January 02, 2017, 09:32:39 AM
More at least.

To be blunt - that is a fantasy. CIG is bringing in double what other crowdfunding games are generating - combined. While I have qualms about the model, I can't argue with its success.

$35 million in 2016 was a marvellous result and one not matched by the marketing professionals at the other companies. CIGs marketing is doing something right to generate that amount of cash for the company, and Sandi is head of marketing. You might think she is unqualified, you might think she is a figurehead, you might think she does nothing but buy designer handbags all day but the simple fact remains...CIG achieved over $35 million of funding in 2016 and a large part of that is due to marketing.

CIG is generating a huge amount of cash for development already. CIG is very successful in this area. Arguing that anyone else should have been capable of generating even more - even when other companies fail to come close - is petty.

The game has no marketing. Going to and hosting shows is borderline marketing; but those are traditional avenues for gaming showcases - not marketing.

Making promises for features, isn't marketing.
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: Scruffpuff on January 02, 2017, 10:39:14 AM
Making promises for features, isn't marketing.

This smacks of a semantic argument at first glance, but it's actually pretty accurate.  CIG actually has no marketing because they don't have a product, or a plan for a product.

They sell ships that don't exist, for game mechanics that don't exist (and aren't planned yet), for a game that doesn't exist and has no roadmap for even BEGINNING development, much less delivery.

Nobody, even Chris Roberts, knows what Star Citizen is.  Even if every stretch goal they listed on their site were to come to fruition, none of them constitute a game.  There is no game, there is no plan for a game, there is no concept, even at the earliest stages, of what the game is and/or will be.  All they have are shitty, sub-par assets in a shitty, sub-par environment, all held together with duct tape and dreams.

You can't market something that doesn't exist.  All you can do is make up facts from whole cloth and then take money from idiots.  CIG is good at that.
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: dsmart on January 02, 2017, 11:49:45 AM
It's one massive confidence scam; which seems to have worked.
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: Kyrt on January 02, 2017, 03:16:14 PM
Why do you care? Does it somehow trigger you? If so, how and why?

I "care" only in that I'd like to play the game that they are developing now. I am a fan of the genre.

So I try to keep up to date with what is happening. And following the feeds of people such as yourself and others to get different viewpoints. You are a developer so you have a viewpoint diffetent from most.

But...continuing to harp on about issues such as the fact that CIG will never release the game they pitched? Who cares? The problem is that that argument has been accepted by CIG. They are proud of it. They are promising something bigger and better in its place and the backers are largely accepting of that. But you keep bringing it up.

You are pushing an argument that YOU have lost. You are right....but you are only reiterating what CIG themselves have stated and your continued use of such facts harms YOUR credibility.

The existing backers mostly don't care and any new backers will be supporting the existing vision.

Quote
Oh, and somehow that means they're not running a scam?

No. It means you've presented no evidence that they are. Just opinion and supposition.

Quote
How does people not getting paid, amount to them running out of money to complete the game? Please explain.

Who said anything about people not getting paid?

Quote
As to the money side, clearly the longer it takes, the more they will need consistent funding. And all the tricks they have pulled in the name of raising funds, are testament to how they are scamming backers in order to continue operations.

And if they weren't pulling those stunts to raise money, how exactly would they still be in operation despite nowhere near completing either of the two games?

Fundraising is not proof of fraud or scams. It isn't even something that hints at fraud or scams. Nor are the marketing tactics that CIG use to promote their fundraising unusual or unique.

Those "stunts" as you call it appear to be a fairly successful marketing campaign

Quote
NONE of that is relevant because again, you guys (most of you in stealth mode) are comparing established and experienced teams and companies - who have released games - to one that haven't. Not to mention the fact that the game scopes are different.

Yes...in that the scope of Star Citizen is greater than many such games.  And yet you expect a game that should require 5-8 years of development to be ready in 3. Even knowing CIG had to set up several studios and still don't have a team as big or as experienced as those attached to more established studios.

Assuming the details are correct...SWTOR took nearly 5000 man years to develop. Even were we to use the full 5 years including the time before Kickstarter, CIG would only have spent 2000 man years on development.

And yes..gross simplifications and so on, but the issue here is not that CIG don't have much to show, its that CIG really need to pay more attention to its planned release dates.

It keeps getting them wrong. But so do others. Zelda BotW was due for release in 2015. Daikatan was delayed for years. So was DNF. Last Guardian and FF15 finally got released. Horizon, Destiny 2 and others all missed the 2016 window.

Games get delayed. Deadlines get missed. And as a developer shouldn't you be accepting the fact that Alpha builds would be more susceptible to the issues that cause delays, not less?

Quote
Which is pointless and part of the scam because that's not what they sold backers.

And part of what they are doing now came with the stretch goals. And they have already stated the original vision for the game is no more. And backers continue to back so the current vision IS what backers are backing.

CIG have been quite open that the vision has changed.
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: nawledgelambo on January 02, 2017, 07:16:06 PM
Hey someone help a guy out and find the AtV/RtV (can't remember which) of the austin, tx studio talking about how they have anti-hack software installed but they can't talk about it, and tag me here, thanks loves
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: Lir on January 03, 2017, 09:02:25 AM
Why do you care? Does it somehow trigger you? If so, how and why?

I "care" only in that I'd like to play the game that they are developing now. I am a fan of the genre.

So I try to keep up to date with what is happening. (...etc...)

Hello  Kyrt.

Well how to say , you are discussing a point that is irrelevant for us,  for CIG is not a company making a game.
It is a scam machine. Period. You could dream of your dream game and how awesome a space game in the  like of SC would be. I agree with you on that.
Only it is not happening with CIG .
Thing is if you fail to sight and acknowledge CIG is a scam machine then you have to take on yourself, and admit you have been fooled because they are not a game company .
If you fail to see that by yourself, anything we would tell you would be (and is ) irrelevant from your side of things.

Thing is : we are right because facts proove us right. As in sky is blue.

If you refuse to acknowledge this, then you are accepting CR and SG telling you that sky is in green. They are liars, they are not the good people you think they are.
Just accept you have been fooled off your money the same way I had been fooled by them once. It takes lot to admit you can be wrong and accept it. It takes modesty and and a punch at pride.
But the gain from it is the money you would reclaim as refund, and your honor safe for you would have been smarter than them.

That's about it.
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: Kyrt on January 03, 2017, 09:51:51 AM
Well how to say , you are discussing a point that is irrelevant for us,  for CIG is not a company making a game.
It is a scam machine. Period.

And.....am i supposed to take your word for that?

I see no evidence the CIG are scamming anyone. And repeating the same thing over and over again, that they are scammers simply because YOU say so, isn't really good enough.
You are making a serious charge against the company...and the only reason you have for doing so is that they have missed deadlines and raise funds via a Crowdsourcing system rather than backers.

CIG may not be making the progress I think they should be capable of...but they ARE making progress.
CIG may have made some very bad decisions in the past - but they are still developing the game
CIG may have had engaged in poor communications - butt hey are still raking in millions from backers who support them and the vision of the game they are trying to create.

There is no evidence they are scamming folk. No evidence that they are lying. And they aren't the only company to miss deadlines.

Quote
Thing is : we are right because facts prove us right. As in sky is blue.

What facts? There are no facts beyond the little details of crowdfunding revenue stream and missed deadlines.

Quote
Just accept you have been fooled off your money the same way I had been fooled by them once. It takes lot to admit you can be wrong and accept it. It takes modesty and and a punch at pride.
But the gain from it is the money you would reclaim as refund, and your honor safe for you would have been smarter than them.

Lol....I haven't given them a penny. I ain't a backer and have no intention of doing so until the game is released.

That doesn't stop me being interested in the project or following it. I've pushed Derek Smarts points on other forums where i thought he had soem degree of merit. And here, I'm arguing against the idea the company is a scam machine because so far there is no evidence.  Maybe they are but right now pointing to missed deadlines which aren't unusual in the industry or a crowdfunding model isn't evidence of anything. There isn't even circumstantial evidence.

CIG and Chris Roberts have made bad decisions, have wasted money and have - at best - vastly underestimated the time and resources necessary to produce the game that Chris Roberts wants to create. But while I am not a fan of the crowdfunding system they have - not least because it does remove oversight and accountability - it is giving them funding, and the backers KNOW what they are paying. I think it is stupid to provide so much cash for what will be a $60 game but so long as the backers are aware, who am I to argue? And while I think many of the decision made by CIG and Chris Roberts have been bad...even counterproductive at times...so far it appears that the game IS being developed. Progress might not be as fight as I would like...but progress IS being made.

Castigate CIG for the many bad decisions they have made in the past....but there is no need to make charges that do not appear to be true.
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: Lir on January 03, 2017, 10:16:33 AM
Well I know you haven't invested, I read that somewhere.
 I won't play the quote&debunk stuff cause I'm done with that but :
 Fact is you talk like one of these drawn people to the cause , that refuses to acknowledge evidences.
You say there are no evidences : The evidences are all over, starting with RSI website. You have to do the other part and that would only take your good will.

Sky is green for you , I hope you'll think over it.
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: Kyrt on January 03, 2017, 11:46:23 AM
Fact is you talk like one of these drawn people to the cause , that refuses to acknowledge evidences.
There is no evidence

And you saying there is evidence is also not evidence. It isn't even conjecture.

I can look at CIGs funding model and say that it is one which disincentivises release of an actual product.
I can look at the lack of previews for Squadron 42 and say that for a game which is supposed to be released in 2017, the lack of any sort of preview is worrying
I can look at Chris Roberts and his continuing  insistence on providing unrealistic release dates that appear obviously unrealistic to everyone outside the faithful.
I can look at CIGs history and point out what look like a number of bad decisions which have cost it time and money....such as the  game engine.
I can look at SC fans and laugh at their fanboi insistence all is OK and SC will be the BDSSE and their absurd willingness to hand over tens of thousands of dollars for a game everyone else will pay 60 bucks for.
I can look at how their poor communication has caused problems and shake my head at how easy some of their problem could have been avoided with just a little thought.

But what i cannot do is look at what is happening and say "this is evidence of a scam". The best - the absolute best - you can say in this regard is say that some of the behaviour they have exhibited can be explained as part of a scam. However, it could also be explained as marketing, or poor communication, or missed deadlines.

Star Citizen is vapourware, yes. There is currently no sign of a finished product. The current work we've seen is essentially a series of unlinked tech demos.

But there is also no doubt that CIG ARE working on the game. That they are trying to make the game Chris Roberts has pushed.

CIG might fold before that game is released. But it might not.
The game might be brilliant. Or it might be bad.

But - evidence of the entire thing being a scam? A fraud? A con?
It isn't there.

Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: Flashwit on January 03, 2017, 01:16:32 PM
Fact is you talk like one of these drawn people to the cause , that refuses to acknowledge evidences.
There is no evidence

And you saying there is evidence is also not evidence. It isn't even conjecture.

I can look at CIGs funding model and say that it is one which disincentivises release of an actual product.
I can look at the lack of previews for Squadron 42 and say that for a game which is supposed to be released in 2017, the lack of any sort of preview is worrying
I can look at Chris Roberts and his continuing  insistence on providing unrealistic release dates that appear obviously unrealistic to everyone outside the faithful.
I can look at CIGs history and point out what look like a number of bad decisions which have cost it time and money....such as the  game engine.
I can look at SC fans and laugh at their fanboi insistence all is OK and SC will be the BDSSE and their absurd willingness to hand over tens of thousands of dollars for a game everyone else will pay 60 bucks for.
I can look at how their poor communication has caused problems and shake my head at how easy some of their problem could have been avoided with just a little thought.

But what i cannot do is look at what is happening and say "this is evidence of a scam". The best - the absolute best - you can say in this regard is say that some of the behaviour they have exhibited can be explained as part of a scam. However, it could also be explained as marketing, or poor communication, or missed deadlines.

Star Citizen is vapourware, yes. There is currently no sign of a finished product. The current work we've seen is essentially a series of unlinked tech demos.

But there is also no doubt that CIG ARE working on the game. That they are trying to make the game Chris Roberts has pushed.

CIG might fold before that game is released. But it might not.
The game might be brilliant. Or it might be bad.

But - evidence of the entire thing being a scam? A fraud? A con?
It isn't there.

Yeah, I want to jump on in here with Kyrt as well.

I suppose in the end it's an argument of semantics, but it seems like you guys don't actually know what the word 'scam' even means.
A con would involve the con man (Chris Roberts) gaining the trust of the mark (the backers) so that they give him a ton of money while he produces nothing in return leaving the backers holding nothing. At this point he's certainly got the 'ton of money' part, the difference being that he's actually producing something in return for the money. It's definitely a shitty something right now, and could ultimately end up being released as a shitty something or not being released at all but a key part of a con is that the con man's purpose is to defraud the marks. The facts are that at that moment, money is coming in, and it is being used to rent offices, pay salaries of game developers, and I assume a bunch of other stuff including wasteful spending like on that space door.

Until I see evidence otherwise, I believe that Chris is simply terrible at managing a game development studio. Occam's AND Hanlon's Razor people. It's far simpler to believe that Chris is bad at his job than to believe that he at some point changed his goal from developing a game to maliciously defrauding tens of thousands of people.

But really, it's the end result that matters. Whether the game is crappy because he's a crappy developer or it's crappy because he has engineered some sort of absurd long con, the end result is a crappy game. It's perfectly acceptable to take him to task for mismanagement of money without conjuring a conspiracy behind it all.

You're just going to look silly otherwise.

(Full Disclosure is that I have a grand total of $35 in Star Citizen)
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: Scruffpuff on January 03, 2017, 04:18:26 PM
I think the safest criticism is that it's a legitimate enterprise that has devolved into something of a Ponzi scheme.  From Wikipedia:

"Ponzi schemes occasionally begin as legitimate businesses, until the business fails to achieve the returns expected. The business becomes a Ponzi scheme if it then continues under fraudulent terms. Whatever the initial situation, the perpetuation of the high returns requires an ever-increasing flow of money from new investors to sustain the scheme."

AKA "We failed to build what we thought we could with your money because we're mind-bogglingly incompetent - please buy more ships so we can finish designing the ones earlier backers already paid for."

Unlike a Ponzi scheme, where the guys in charge at some point realize what they're doing, Chris Roberts is too stupid to understand even the most elementary principles of almost any subject imaginable.  As a result, you can't even really call this a Ponzi scheme - just an idiot burning other people's money.
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: dsmart on January 03, 2017, 04:34:28 PM
I suppose in the end it's an argument of semantics, but it seems like you guys don't actually know what the word 'scam' even means.
A con would involve the con man (Chris Roberts) gaining the trust of the mark (the backers) so that they give him a ton of money while he produces nothing in return leaving the backers holding nothing. At this point he's certainly got the 'ton of money' part, the difference being that he's actually producing something in return for the money.

Sorry, but no - that's actually not how a scam works or is defined. You can still run a scam, while delivering something. Heck, entire corporations have been shutdown, and people jailed, for running various scams.

And when you observe the "scam" part of what's going on, it's easy to see that it's basically (as I wrote in 4 blogs, complete with definitions) a "confidence (http://money.howstuffworks.com/con-artist.htm)" scam.

Why We All Fall for Con Artists (http://nymag.com/scienceofus/2016/01/why-we-all-fall-for-con-artists.html)
The Art of the Con (https://www.theguardian.com/books/2016/jan/15/maria-konnikova-interview-new-book-the-confidence-game-review-scams)
Catch me if you can: 10 of the world's greatest confidence tricks (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/howaboutthat/5870515/Catch-me-if-you-can-10-of-the-worlds-greatest-confidence-tricks.html)
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: Padrepapp on January 04, 2017, 12:45:54 AM
Fact is you talk like one of these drawn people to the cause , that refuses to acknowledge evidences.
But - evidence of the entire thing being a scam? A fraud? A con?
It isn't there.

Hi Kyrt!

Could you please stop commenting? I think most of us come here for new information and for the newest dumb shit CIG have done to have a laugh.
 Every single comment of yours is the same, that You think it's not a scam. We get it. You can stop posting now, it was interesting for the first few times, but reading the same thing for 50 comments is now getting boring and tiring.
I come here to get something new, and I see that there are new posts, only to find out that it is always you with the same arguments for weeks now.

Please stop. We heard you. We get your opinion. Make a blog or something, because for me you are becoming an annoying spam on a site I like to visit.
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: Kyrt on January 04, 2017, 05:40:32 AM
Sorry, but no - that's actually not how a scam works or is defined. You can still run a scam, while delivering something. Heck, entire corporations have been shutdown, and people jailed, for running various scams.

And when you observe the "scam" part of what's going on, it's easy to see that it's basically (as I wrote in 4 blogs, complete with definitions) a "confidence (http://money.howstuffworks.com/con-artist.htm)" scam.

Why We All Fall for Con Artists (http://nymag.com/scienceofus/2016/01/why-we-all-fall-for-con-artists.html)
The Art of the Con (https://www.theguardian.com/books/2016/jan/15/maria-konnikova-interview-new-book-the-confidence-game-review-scams)
Catch me if you can: 10 of the world's greatest confidence tricks (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/howaboutthat/5870515/Catch-me-if-you-can-10-of-the-worlds-greatest-confidence-tricks.html)

Those show fraud and cons and fakes.

Here....we have CIG asking people for money to develop a game. In return, they are promised that certain ships and equipment will be made available to them when the game is released.

The backers expect the ship, and they expect the money to be used to fund CIG and develop the game.

There is no guarantee the game will be any good.
There is no guarantee the game will ever be released.
And I'm not personally keen on this model because it removes a lit of oversight and accountability, removes the need to publish the game and even disincentivizes release by providing a revenue stream that can exist only while the game is in development.

But CIG and Chris Roberts do appear to be spending the money on funding and developing the game. 

We are getting demos. We are getting new features added.  We are seeing the game getting fleshed out.....slowly, but it IS being fleshed out.

What is it exactly that makes all this a scam?

The crowdfunding exercise is a negative IMO....but there is no sign the money is being used for other purposes.
Deadlines are being missed but that can hardly be said to be unusual or unique.
Money has been wasted and bad decisions have been made but that isn't what makes a scam.

A scam involves fraud. Involves conning the people involved.

Here....where is the fraud? While CIG keep missing deadlines, they do appear to be investing in game development and do appear intent on developing and releasing the game when it is ready.

Which is what the money is for?

Is there evidence money has been diverted away? Used for purposes other than game development? 

CIG might have spent the money foolishly. It might have done what so many have done when they came into a windfall and gone on a spending spree.

But all said and done....none of that makes what CIG are doing a scam, a fraud or a con.

They are taking money for a purpose....development of Star Citizen...and appear to be using it for that purpose. You might disagree with what and how the money has been spent....but again, not a scam.

It is, IMO, foolish of people to hand over such huge amounts of money for a game. Especially when there is no guarantee the game will be released, let alone good. But it isn't as if they don't know that.

Withh that CIG and Chris Roberts CAN be criticised for, with all the mistakes and bad decisions they have made, with the lack of progress snd their continued inability to meet deadlines, there is no need to fight a battle over made up charges that the entire thing is nothing but a scam.

People pledge money to fund development of the game.
In return...CIG provides them with a ship for use in the game and have developed the game.

Backers ARE getting what they donated towards.

CIGs problem is that what they are working on now has grown far beyond what they initially planned. Their initial timetable is kaput and they have moved onto a different vision. Delivery is taking much longer to achieve than planned.

But none of that makes this a scam.

Hold CIG to account for the mistakes and bad decisions they have made and will make. There is enough there withoug inventing charges of a scam.

Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: dsmart on January 04, 2017, 05:47:07 AM


We are getting demos. We are getting new features added.  We are seeing the game getting fleshed out.....slowly, but it IS being fleshed out.

What is it exactly that makes all this a scam?

Yeah uh-huh. Keep telling yourself that.

ps: I think you've given yourself away these past few posts. For someone who claimed to not have any money invested in the game, I think you let your ego get the better of sound judgement. And as a result, you've outed yourself. LOL!!  :laugh:
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: Kyrt on January 04, 2017, 08:08:10 AM
Yeah uh-huh. Keep telling yourself that.

ps: I think you've given yourself away these past few posts. For someone who claimed to not have any money invested in the game, I think you let your ego get the better of sound judgement. And as a result, you've outed yourself. LOL!!  :laugh:

I don't. Why should I? IMO, anyone paying hundreds of dollars for a $60 game is foolish and wasting their money.

But....so what?

CIG has made plenty of bad decisions.
CIG has wasted a good oart of the money they have raised.
CIG should be making quicker progress than they have demonstrated and that they haven't indicates problems and bad management.

There is plenty to lambast them for.

Plenty.

But....you go around criticising them that they'll never release the game they pitched. And that is true. They won't They admit that. The game they want to release is bigger and better....or do they say.

But you don't criticise them for that change...you just go around saying they'll never release the game they promised. But CIG aren't hiding that fact. The backers already know this.  But you keep making this out to be some great big secret...some huge revelation or shocker.

The only thing you are doing is hurting your own credibility by making it seem as if you are creating a scandal out of nothing. I think CIG needs someone like you to hold them to account....but this type of charge doesn't help.

Nor does the charges of this being a scam.

CIG ask for backers to invest in return for a ship.
CIG are using the money to develop the game. Your own assertions seem to indicatte that the money has been spent on game development. You just seem to think they are running on fumes. That CIG have spent all their money and are in a state of living hand to mouth.

If that were so, you might have a case for bad management but not fraud.

As it is...CIG might have a buffer of up to $70 million left, although its likely less. But you keep saying this is a scam. That even if they started out developing the game, that it has devolved into a scam

And the reasoning you seem to provide is the crowdfunding scheme and lack of results.

You might like talking down 2.6...but it is out. There is plenty to criticise...but it is an Alpha release and it is out. It was delayed....but it is out. It shows progress....it shows development is ongoing....it shows work is being done.

CIG took in about $35 million last year. With 400 devs, that's a wage bill of at least $20 million right there. And there'd be other costs on top of that.

CIG spent time developing the tools they needed. Spent time working on the engine. Spent time working on the game modules. Spent time on ships. And so on.

Unless you want to make the argument that CIG aren't paying their staff, where the money raised is being spent is easy to see. Its being spent on game development. On wages. On rent and power and equipment.

How is this a scam?

CIG has done plenty to be criticised about. So far, however, it doesn't appear as if fraud is one of those.

CIG could have had a game out years ago. We can see what other teams have been able to do with just a fraction of the money they have available.

Elite Dangerous apparently cost about $8million to develop in 2014 though others say it has grown to about £20million. No Mans Sky cost much less. But SWTOR needed $100-$200 million dollars.

CIG don't have a lot to show even for the money they have spent or the time they have devoted to the project. You can point to other games of similar scale doing more with less. You can even take Star Marine and point out some very impressive player created mods for other FPS games.

You can even see where some of the problems lie.....Star Citizen as promised could never be released by a publisher because it could never make its money back. The crowdfunding is allowing Star Citizen to have a budget that it could never justify to a publisher and as a result, CIG and CR has allowed its scope and complexity to grow.

But none of that is scamming the backers.

So sure...keep pointing out everything wrong with Star Citizen. There is plenty. But charges of a scam hurt only your credibility and give CIG the reason they need to ignore you.


Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: Darklegend1 on January 04, 2017, 11:38:21 AM
well kyrt i understand u believe in CIG and doesnt want to be proved wrong but listen to this

I agree with you that star citizen was started not as a scam but their intentions were pure in beginning. But as you yrself admit that bcoz of mishandling of cash, mis management and mistakes and over expenditure on unwanted merchandise CIG burned the cash and didnt achieve their set goals(for star citizen) that they hoped to achieve. They failed miserably.

This is the time when this started to tilt in scam region. They wanted money to make the game that they should have in their hands by now. so they started selling more shit jpeg. The community supported them and is still supporting them.

Right now if you see we dont even have an entire system out of the 100+ systems promised and just dont make me start on other things.

I became a backer on i think may 2016 after seeing star citizen ad on internet somewhere i knew the game from kickstarter 2012 but seeing a "coming 2016" i was superhyped and gave them 60$. At that time i very well knew that this date is not for the PU but for sq 42 but then also i backed coz i saw i will have something in next six months to play.

what i have is ..... well nothing worth mentioning.

so was i scammed? ... some would say yes and some might say no as game development can have unforeseeable delays.

what i think:

1) delays can happen but delays of such magnitude where u postpone release from release date indefinitely doesnt happen!!!!

2) when they gave 2016 date they must have believed that right (if they didnt and just tricked me to hand them over 60$ its a scam) so a delay should have set them back by 3-4 months max(considering they were to release sq 42 in 2014)
but me as a backer still doesnt know when it will come.( A shame)

3)  For a game that was supposed to have released in 2014 then 2015 then  2016 doesnt even have a trailer till date (2017) And again i am not talking about PU just sq 42. (thats lame). they say they dont wanna give spoilers ...lol so every other game releases without trailers...hahaha :doh:. (also consider this that CR himself had told the plot of the game to everyone in an official interview.  :laugh:

4) show tech demos and fool backers and run with their money. until backers stop giving them money they basically dont need to do much then to sit on their asses and do nothing.

5) after backer unrest they released game production schedule which is a joke in my opinion. they set deadlines and when they pass the deadlines they change the schedule again. if all people start making and reiterating schedules like this then trust me nobody in any trade will ever miss a deadline.

6) look at their site they are boasting they released the patch on time where as if they were honest they should have mentioned that their initial target date was 8 dec and they missed it by 21 or so days but they dont say that.
they should present facts and let the backer decide what to make out of it but they are obfuscating the facts.

7) when backers asked where is schedule for 3.0 they said it will be released once 2.6 is out. now 2.6 is out where is the updated schedule??? let me tell you before you say "THEY ARE ON LEAVE" ...

If they wanted to make us see the 3.0 schedule considering they have it, a simple timed event on server using script could trigger the page to be updated without human intervention but they didnt, let me tell you why.

they dont know how the community will react to them telling us that 3.0 will come in june 2017 or somewhere near and they dont want this uncertainty to hamper in any way to the money they can grab in this holiday season. thats why they are filling up wallets as long as they can.

so here am i a backer:
1) who was tricked by false advertising.
2) who is completely blind to how his money is being spent(no accountability)
3) who has been denied the right to get his money back (by their changed TOS)
4) who is told his money cant be given back as it has been invested in making game that is just a skeleton of what it should have been  and is being given no timeframe when he can expect to see the thing he paid for that was already supposed to be released... :laugh: :laugh:
5) who updated is computer components in hope that 2016 end is coming near and he should be prepared for star citizen.
6) who now realize that clowns are making the game who either cant accurately predict how long will it take them to release the next patch(let alone the game in its entirety) or they simply doesnt want to share so as to hide their incompetency and ultimately putting a stop to their easy stream of steady income being showed into their pockets by innocent backers who believe in their lies.

SO SIR IF YOU ASK ME I WAS SCAMMED.PERIOD

 Sorry for the long post would have preferred to post an image of a donkey with a carrot hanging in front of him by rider(where donkey = backer, carrot = SC, Rider = CIG) But wasnt able to find one so ... :laugh:  :lesnick: :sandance:

Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: Kyrt on January 04, 2017, 02:48:34 PM
well kyrt i understand u believe in CIG and doesnt want to be proved wrong but listen to this

No. I simply object to people levelling charges of criminal behaviour without any evidence.

I have strong doubts CIG will release SC any time soon....or that it will be any good if it does. I would estimate at least three years and a 2019 release but even then, some of CIGs decisions leave me thinking the game will be wonderfully detailed, and not a lot of fun.

I can hope the game will be released within a reasonable timeframe...I can hope it will be good...I can hope it will be fun.

And if it is...I'll likely buy it.  But I'm not going to count on it. Whether you say CIG has been in full development mode only since 2013 when they set up Foundry 42 or say its been 5 years because of the development work that took place before Kickstarter or 4 years because only the eork after Kickstarter counts, a release is only possible if CIG manage to keep the backers happy and engaged.

And I think that the habit of overhyping the game and the practise of providing overly optimistic release dates while understandable to a degree is also counterproductive in that it leads to expectations CIG cannot meet and which will eventually alienate the backers.

I don't want to be wrong...because I like the idea of the game CIG are trying to create and I'd like to play that game. But I'm not going to cry if it never gets released or doesn't live up to the hype. I simply won't buy it.

Quote
This is the time when this started to tilt in scam region. They wanted money to make the game that they should have in their hands by now. so they started selling more shit jpeg. The community supported them and is still supporting them.

Even if you wanted to argue that they are running on fumes, that the buffer of up to $70 million that many think they have is essentially gone - and that argument is plausible - raising cash to continue development is not a scam.

The game might never be released....but the only question here is whether or not CIG are developing the game. CIG raised $35 million or so last year. Was any of it skimmed off or embezzled? Is Chris Roberts getting millions from backers with no intention of developing the game?

There is no sign of this. No evidence. He and CIG are raising money and that money is going exactly where it is supposed to be going.

Development of SC and S42.

Just how is this a scam? Where is the fraud?

Quote
Right now if you see we dont even have an entire system out of the 100+ systems promised and just dont make me start on other things.

One of the stretch goals of the project was to develop custom tools necessary to create the game and its environment. 
The goal was also to have 100 systems available on release. Not three years before. On release.

An argument can certainly be put forward that CIG should be more advanced in development than they currently are. That what is slated for v4.0 should have been out sooner. That CIG have skewed priorities.

That argument does not make this a scam.

CIG have done plenty that can be criticised. So far, deliberate fraud does not appear to be one of them.

Quote
1) delays can happen but delays of such magnitude where u postpone release from release date indefinitely doesnt happen!!!!

Unfortunately.....yes. Such delays do happen. SC and SQ42 aren't even the worst offenders.

Zelda BotW was supposed to be a Wii U launch title.  Its now going to be a Switch launch title. That game is from Nintendo. There are plenty of other examples.


Quote
4) show tech demos and fool backers and run with their money. until backers stop giving them money they basically dont need to do much then to sit on their asses and do nothing.

While generally true....CIG don't fool anyone. They are pretty upfront about what their demoes are.

Quote
5) after backer unrest they released game production schedule which is a joke in my opinion. they set deadlines and when they pass the deadlines they change the schedule again. if all people start making and reiterating schedules like this then trust me nobody in any trade will ever miss a deadline.

Yes. Its a bit of a joke. Its Alpha. Delays are both likely and certain. Its not unexpected that delays occur. Which is why they emphasised delays were likely.

Quote
they dont know how the community will react to them telling us that 3.0 will come in june 2017 or somewhere near and they dont want this uncertainty to hamper in any way to the money they can grab in this holiday season. thats why they are filling up wallets as long as they can.

Even assuming what you say is true...you are simply accusing them of acting like a business.

None of this equates to "scam".

Quote
so here am i a backer:
1) who was tricked by false advertising.

Yes. But delays aren't uncommon.

Quote
2) who is completely blind to how his money is being spent(no accountability)

Backers wanted the freedom that comes with not having a publisher.

Quote
3) who has been denied the right to get his money back (by their changed TOS)

And you still agreed to it. Even then, if you want your money back you might still have a shot depending on the legal situation where you live.

Quote
6) who now realize that clowns are making the game who either cant accurately predict how long will it take them to release the next patch(let alone the game in its entirety) or they simply doesnt want to share so as to hide their incompetency and ultimately putting a stop to their easy stream of steady income being showed into their pockets by innocent backers who believe in their lies.

There probably isn't any company in the world who can accurately predict what you want predicted. The deadlines are more of a "hope for the best".  As stated...other companies also have trouble meeting deadlines.

Quote
SO SIR IF YOU ASK ME I WAS SCAMMED.PERIOD

Because you invested in a game knowing that development was an uncertain process with no guarantees and did so knowing you wouldn't get your money back.

I have plenty of problems with what CIG are doing and I don't like their funding method. Not when it is used this way

But so far I don't see the scam. CIG have provided no release date for the game, are quite open about the potential for delay with Alphas, and their ToS and no refund policy was well discussed. You appear to have known all this....and still decided to invest in exchange for a digital asset.

Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: Motto on January 04, 2017, 05:22:01 PM
Fact is you talk like one of these drawn people to the cause , that refuses to acknowledge evidences.
But - evidence of the entire thing being a scam? A fraud? A con?
It isn't there.

Hi Kyrt!

Could you please stop commenting? I think most of us come here for new information and for the newest dumb shit CIG have done to have a laugh.
 Every single comment of yours is the same, that You think it's not a scam. We get it. You can stop posting now, it was interesting for the first few times, but reading the same thing for 50 comments is now getting boring and tiring.
I come here to get something new, and I see that there are new posts, only to find out that it is always you with the same arguments for weeks now.

Please stop. We heard you. We get your opinion. Make a blog or something, because for me you are becoming an annoying spam on a site I like to visit.

Amen to that. Please stop posting Kyrt about how this may or may not be a scam et cetera. Just sit back, relax and watch how this Star Citizen drama will run intself into the ground. That's what I'm here for.
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: Kyrt on January 05, 2017, 12:19:09 AM
Amen to that. Please stop posting Kyrt about how this may or may not be a scam et cetera. Just sit back, relax and watch how this Star Citizen drama will run intself into the ground. That's what I'm here for.

Why then not call on others to stop spreading the mythical charge that CIG and Chris Roberts are engaged in a massive scam?

You like the mud slinging? Levelling false charges at a company is entertaining?
Why not even question the need to call this a scam? CIG have made enough mistakes without the need to level such charges.

As it is, until Derek Smart sees fit to remove my posting privileges, I will continue to post. Sometimes I'll support CIG...and sometimes I'll support Derek Smart.
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: Padrepapp on January 05, 2017, 02:35:27 AM
Why then not call on others to stop spreading the mythical charge that CIG and Chris Roberts are engaged in a massive scam?

Derek Smart's narrative is that this is a scam, and a lot of people agree with him. And many don't.
But I think everyone visits the site to get information in the unique writing style of DS and to have a laugh on the forum. DS's article are great, because it is full of links, so you can look for yourself and decide for yourself.
Many people wirte what they think after reading the things DS came up with, but you write your own opinion 50 times. Sadly many people goes into an arguement with you, which makes the forum look like this:

Kyrt: intelligent comment.
Commenter1: argument
Kyrt: reaction
Commenter2: same or similar arguments
Kyrt: same or similar arguments
Commenter3: same or similar arguments
Kyrt: same or similar arguments

And repeat this for 50 comments. Its boring, annoying, tiring and unnecessary.

You like the mud slinging? Levelling false charges at a company is entertaining?
Why not even question the need to call this a scam? CIG have made enough mistakes without the need to level such charges.

I find the whole SC situation interesting and funny at the same time. With all the mud slinging and flase charges and amateur communication and development mistakes of CIG. The pressure does not come from Derek Smart, but their own inability to provide a game, or at least keep the backers informed properly.

As it is, until Derek Smart sees fit to remove my posting privileges, I will continue to post. Sometimes I'll support CIG...and sometimes I'll support Derek Smart.

Yeah, the only thing DS needs is a banned forum member, who did nothing wrong, just being utterly boring and annoying.
I know you CAN post here, I just asked that you notice yourself and take one for the community and not post another wall of text with the same arguments until you get a good writing style like DS. DS writes long articles, filled with information he already said many times, but the stlye and how he connects them to new information makes it interesting and fun to read.

I am not against fully articulated and intelligent arguments like what you do here. I am against reading that 50 times.

Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: Darklegend1 on January 05, 2017, 05:51:54 AM
For kyrt's sake.. :laugh: :laugh:

Consider this example :

If i promise someone something and take a payment from them for making that thing in a said timeline. i cross well beyond the deadlines and still cant show the buyer any thing substantial and i start hiding facts,misrepresenting data, make myself impossible to reach or get an answer out of, give new deadlines and then miss them again and then keep hiding and even try to say i havent given any deadlines or simply say that was my goal but i never said i will or can achieve them. then i tell them that i wont give back your money also and stop giving new deadlines stating that i will not tell you when the product will come as i failed to achieve previous deadlines.

Now suppose by a miracle I somehow with god's help deliver the product the buyer will get what he paid for obviously many years after i originally pitched but then again i will state that i delivered what i took money for and feel happy.

But the buyer will be angry with me, and will even keep questioning my competency, ethics, morale and character but UNLESS i deliver the product to him he has every right to call me a scammer.

This is what CIG is doing.
and this is irrefutable.

Now kyrt if u cant see this to be the case then u need some medical attention. :psyduck: :psyduck:
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: dsmart on January 05, 2017, 05:59:08 AM
well kyrt i understand u believe in CIG and doesnt want to be proved wrong but listen to this

Oh really? That's your explanation? Weak.

Maybe you haven't been in society or the Internet for long enough to understand that you don't need evidence to posit or opine about something. The definitions of a scam are not open to interpretation. And the short list of examples that darklegend1 posted above, are just the tip of the iceberg.

In fact, I'll go one step further and give the most visible and 100% provable evidence of a scam: the changing of the ToS at the time when the games were supposed to have been released, and two key conditions (refunds, financial accountability) were to trigger. Then they made it worse, in that ToS change by indicating that they no longer have to do any of those two things, let alone deliver a game.

That's a scam. That's how that works.

And for as much as they hate me, I have absolutely no qualms about accusing them of criminal conduct because it's all based on 100% provable actions and which are what State and Fed officials, as well as irate backers who end up suing, are going to citing soon enough.

And I wrote an entire blog (The Refund Debacle (http://www.dereksmart.org/2016/07/star-citizen-the-refund-debacle/)) about this specific aspect which, btw, State and Fed officials appear to agree with.

But so far I don't see the scam. CIG have provided no release date for the game, are quite open about the potential for delay with Alphas, and their ToS and no refund policy was well discussed. You appear to have known all this....and still decided to invest in exchange for a digital asset.

Shirley you jest. Are you serious right now?

1) false. the release date was Nov 2014, with a 12, then 18 month delay allowance. it's now Jan 2017.

2) false. if they were, they won't be making schedules and missing them - repeatedly. heck even 2.6 has to be gutted so they could release the awful Star Marine

3) discussing the ToS is meaningless as it doesn't take away the fact that they stripped backers of promises and assurances they previously had in prior ToS versions

Your posts are 100% evidence that you're either a backer or a Shillizen, because your posts have become progressively supportive of what CIG/RSI have done, even as people point them out, call you out on them etc. But that's OK because you're engaging in discourse and providing an endless stream of lols; so we don't mind. Do carry on.

ps:

https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php/259596-The-Star-Citizen-Thread-v5?p=4965687&viewfull=1#post4965687

https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php/259596-The-Star-Citizen-Thread-v5?p=4965927&viewfull=1#post4965927

Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: dsmart on January 05, 2017, 06:05:41 AM
(https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/188332576459587584/266359049677832202/unknown.png)

These are all immaterial because what's in the works completely eclipses all of the above (whether true or not).
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: dsmart on January 05, 2017, 06:20:12 AM
Moved to concern

https://forums.robertsspaceindustries.com/discussion/361830/cig-freaking-nailed-it-awesome-cr-and-cig

(http://i.imgur.com/G6sRGRw.jpg)
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: dsmart on January 05, 2017, 06:36:20 AM
Alexa on Echo Dot:

Me: "Alexa. Is Star Citizen a scam?".

Alexa on Echo Dot: "According to Derek Smart anAmerican videogame developer, Star Citizen as pitched cannot be made. It's a scam. You'll see. Two weeks."
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: Darklegend1 on January 05, 2017, 09:51:30 AM
Alexa on Echo Dot:

Me: "Alexa. Is Star Citizen a scam?".

Alexa on Echo Dot: "According to Derek Smart anAmerican videogame developer, Star Citizen as pitched cannot be made. It's a scam. You'll see. Two weeks."

haha yep as soon as 3.0 schedule comes out there will be blood and chaos.. :supaburn:
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: dsmart on January 05, 2017, 12:14:41 PM
That time when...

Quote
Remember back in September when game-journos Gamestar.de accidental leaked that Squadron 42 was delayed until 2017 (https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/comments/50z7op/michael_graf_gamestar_chief_editor_info_about/), then CIG denied the info as false (http://www.pcgamer.com/roberts-space-industries-denies-squadron-42-delay-report/), then a month later at CitizenCon the delay was confirmed (http://www.forbes.com/sites/erikkain/2016/10/10/star-citizens-squadron-42-single-player-campaign-delayed-indefinitely), then the Forbes guy changed the title from "Delayed Indefinitely" to "Delayed Until Some Future Undefined Date" because shitizens mailbombed him?

Good times.

And through it all, they were busy yelling at me for spreading FUD back when I wrote that neither Star Citizen nor SQ42 was going to see a 2016 release.

Fun times indeed.
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: dsmart on January 05, 2017, 12:48:16 PM
Meanwhile, back at the ranch...

Sorry guys, 3.0 is not coming any time soon. Or at least for the first 8 months of 2017 or even Dece (https://forums.robertsspaceindustries.com/discussion/366680/sorry-guys-3-0-is-not-coming-any-time-soon-or-at-least-for-the-first-8-months-of-2017-or-even-dece#latest)

ps: nobody feels scammed though. so this is all perfectly normal.
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: Kyrt on January 06, 2017, 01:37:12 AM
But the buyer will be angry with me, and will even keep questioning my competency, ethics, morale and character but UNLESS i deliver the product to him he has every right to call me a scammer.

And I will ask you again.

CIG has done plenty that they should be questioned about.

But where is the **fraud**?

They are raising money by crowdfunding.
They are open about their objectives.
They have acknowledged that their original vision can't be delivered - because it has grown since the original Kickstarter.
They have not provided a release date and are very open about the fact that their product is currently in Alpha and hence subject to delays.

What are they doing wrong? They are giving release dates for Alpha patches which, by their nature, are subject to delays. That is unprofessional, IMO. But then, other companies would not be allowing Alpha access at this stage. But CIG needs to because this is part of what feeds their funding model. There are signs of bad management, poor communication and wasted funds/time/resources. With their stretch goals and extra funding, CIG transitioned away from the original game to a vision that is more akin to an actual MMORPG.....transitioned away rom a simplistic Wing Commander successor to a game more akin to WoW or SWTOR.

In short, transitioned into a game type that could requires hundreds of millions and the better part of a decade to develop rather than keep their original vision which was much more achievable.

So - I will ask again - where is the fraud? You say this is a scam? Where is the money going? Is it going into game development? Yes. It appears it is. Is it being siphoned off? Doesn't appear to be.

CIG are raising money, being upfront about the risks involved, and using that money as the backers intend. They are developing the game that they have promised. So there is no intent or action that seems to compromised fraud. A game that should take years and tens of millions to develop IS taking years and tens/hundreds of millions to develop.

Now - the crowdfunding model can be criticised for aspect such as its lack of accountability. CIGs marketing leaves a lot to be desired. CIG and Chris Roberts have made plenty of poor decisions, wasted a fair amount of time and money, and arguably should have more progress to show  than they currently do. If the info we have is even partially correct, Chris Roberts appears to be a poor manager and even a bit out of touch with modern methods of development. CIG continuing to provide release dates which it misses is unprofessional and at best, undermines confidence. At this stage of development, they should almost not be announcing releases until after such releases are ready.

But none of that, nothing that CIG has ever said or done, constitutes fraud or makes this a scam.

As for your example...

CIG promised to make a game. They also promised to make custom tools to develop that game. Their stretch goals which were funded also changed the scope and scale of the game.
They have produced demoes, they have created their tools, they have improved and worked on their engine.

Have they misinformed their backers? Kept facts hidden? Deliberately misrepresented information and facts the players need to know? Are engaged in deliberate fraud?
Maybe they are - but so far, there is no evidence of it. Just a few people engaged in the time honoured practise of mud slinging.

So far, it looks like CIG are developing the game. It looks like they are making progress. It looks like they are making mistakes doing so. But the game is still coming along. The features that were promised are being added. Slowly, but they are being added.

CIG are taking money on the promise that they will develop a game. The money is being used to develop the game. And with 400 Devs and 4 sites, it is easy to see where even $30 million a year could be spent. Is this a scam? Is this fraud? Because so far, it just looks like mudslinging.




Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: Darklegend1 on January 06, 2017, 03:54:56 AM
But the buyer will be angry with me, and will even keep questioning my competency, ethics, morale and character but UNLESS i deliver the product to him he has every right to call me a scammer.

And I will ask you again.

CIG has done plenty that they should be questioned about.

But where is the **fraud**?

They are raising money by crowdfunding.
They are open about their objectives.
They have acknowledged that their original vision can't be delivered - because it has grown since the original Kickstarter.
They have not provided a release date and are very open about the fact that their product is currently in Alpha and hence subject to delays.

What are they doing wrong? They are giving release dates for Alpha patches which, by their nature, are subject to delays. That is unprofessional, IMO. But then, other companies would not be allowing Alpha access at this stage. But CIG needs to because this is part of what feeds their funding model. There are signs of bad management, poor communication and wasted funds/time/resources. With their stretch goals and extra funding, CIG transitioned away from the original game to a vision that is more akin to an actual MMORPG.....transitioned away rom a simplistic Wing Commander successor to a game more akin to WoW or SWTOR.

In short, transitioned into a game type that could requires hundreds of millions and the better part of a decade to develop rather than keep their original vision which was much more achievable.

So - I will ask again - where is the fraud? You say this is a scam? Where is the money going? Is it going into game development? Yes. It appears it is. Is it being siphoned off? Doesn't appear to be.

CIG are raising money, being upfront about the risks involved, and using that money as the backers intend. They are developing the game that they have promised. So there is no intent or action that seems to compromised fraud. A game that should take years and tens of millions to develop IS taking years and tens/hundreds of millions to develop.

Now - the crowdfunding model can be criticised for aspect such as its lack of accountability. CIGs marketing leaves a lot to be desired. CIG and Chris Roberts have made plenty of poor decisions, wasted a fair amount of time and money, and arguably should have more progress to show  than they currently do. If the info we have is even partially correct, Chris Roberts appears to be a poor manager and even a bit out of touch with modern methods of development. CIG continuing to provide release dates which it misses is unprofessional and at best, undermines confidence. At this stage of development, they should almost not be announcing releases until after such releases are ready.

But none of that, nothing that CIG has ever said or done, constitutes fraud or makes this a scam.

As for your example...

CIG promised to make a game. They also promised to make custom tools to develop that game. Their stretch goals which were funded also changed the scope and scale of the game.
They have produced demoes, they have created their tools, they have improved and worked on their engine.

Have they misinformed their backers? Kept facts hidden? Deliberately misrepresented information and facts the players need to know? Are engaged in deliberate fraud?
Maybe they are - but so far, there is no evidence of it. Just a few people engaged in the time honoured practise of mud slinging.

So far, it looks like CIG are developing the game. It looks like they are making progress. It looks like they are making mistakes doing so. But the game is still coming along. The features that were promised are being added. Slowly, but they are being added.

CIG are taking money on the promise that they will develop a game. The money is being used to develop the game. And with 400 Devs and 4 sites, it is easy to see where even $30 million a year could be spent. Is this a scam? Is this fraud? Because so far, it just looks like mudslinging.
sorry bro i cant break it into any simpler form than i already have. be well :laugh: and btw can you share with us how old are you?
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: dsmart on January 06, 2017, 05:46:17 AM
Finally, after being late (like the other two entities) and paying fines each year, for whatever reason, CIG (UK) have now filed their financials.

Though these are for 2015, it's clear now why they need to keep raising money. Basically, CIG (UK) costs 15m GBP ($18m) a year; which is 50% of the $35.9m raised in 2015 (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1tMAP0fg-AKScI3S3VjrDW3OaLO4zgBA1RSYoQOQoNSI/htmlview#). wow.

This number is going to probably be higher in 2016 due to the increased head count as shown in a slide during CitizenCon 2016 this past Oct.

(http://imgur.com/5fqTqpt.jpg)

Remember, for some reason, there are 3 (!) UK companies for this single project. Seriously. CIG (UK), RSI (UK), F42 (UK).

And CIG (UK) is possibly funding both F42 (UK) and F42 (GER); but there is no way to know that info without seeing the F42 (GER) filings, as they could be funded by

CIG (UK)

https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/company/08815227/filing-history

F42 (UK)

https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/company/08703814/filing-history

RSI (UK)

https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/company/08882924/filing-history

The complete (we think) list of companies setup for and/or associated with the Star Citizen project in some form or another:

Quote
List of Star Citizen related corporate entities

1) Cloud Imperium Games Corp, West Hollywood, CA
2) Cloud Imperium Games LLC, West Hollywood, CA
3) Cloud Imperium Services, LLC West Hollywood, CA <– The one is interesting. It is found on BBB, but is not in the CA Secretary Of State (http://kepler.sos.ca.gov/) dB records
4) Cloud Imperium Games LLC, Santa Monica, CA
5) Cloud Imperium Games Texas LLC, West Hollywood, CA
6) Cloud Imperium Games Texas LLC, Austin, TX
7) Cloud Imperium Games UK Limited, UK
8) Foundry 42 Limited, UK
9) Foundry 42, Germany
10) Gemini 42 Entertainment LLC, West Hollywood, CA
11) Gemini 42 Productions LLC, Santa Monica, CA
12) Roberts Space Industries Corp, West Hollywood, CA
13) Roberts Space Industries International Limited, UK
14) Twin Brothers Production Inc, West Hollywood, CA
15) Twin Bros, Germany

So someone crunched the numbers and connected the dots with all three Star Citizen companies, so you don't have to.

(http://i.imgur.com/ESVybYk.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/Cnny9Ae.jpg)
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: dsmart on January 06, 2017, 06:01:25 AM
sorry bro i cant break it into any simpler form than i already have. be well :laugh: and btw can you share with us how old are you?

Just put him on ignore and move on.
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: Lir on January 06, 2017, 02:16:54 PM
But the buyer will be angry with me, and will even keep questioning my competency, ethics, morale and character but UNLESS i deliver the product to him he has every right to call me a scammer.

And I will ask you again.

CIG has done plenty that they should be questioned about.

But where is the **fraud**?

They are raising money by crowdfunding.
They are open about their objectives.
They have acknowledged that their original vision can't be delivered - because it has grown since the original Kickstarter.
They have not provided a release date and are very open about the fact that their product is currently in Alpha and hence subject to delays.

What are they doing wrong? They are giving release dates for Alpha patches which, by their nature, are subject to delays. That is unprofessional, IMO. But then, other companies would not be allowing Alpha access at this stage. But CIG needs to because this is part of what feeds their funding model. There are signs of bad management, poor communication and wasted funds/time/resources. With their stretch goals and extra funding, CIG transitioned away from the original game to a vision that is more akin to an actual MMORPG.....transitioned away rom a simplistic Wing Commander successor to a game more akin to WoW or SWTOR.

In short, transitioned into a game type that could requires hundreds of millions and the better part of a decade to develop rather than keep their original vision which was much more achievable.

So - I will ask again - where is the fraud? You say this is a scam? Where is the money going? Is it going into game development? Yes. It appears it is. Is it being siphoned off? Doesn't appear to be.

CIG are raising money, being upfront about the risks involved, and using that money as the backers intend. They are developing the game that they have promised. So there is no intent or action that seems to compromised fraud. A game that should take years and tens of millions to develop IS taking years and tens/hundreds of millions to develop.

Now - the crowdfunding model can be criticised for aspect such as its lack of accountability. CIGs marketing leaves a lot to be desired. CIG and Chris Roberts have made plenty of poor decisions, wasted a fair amount of time and money, and arguably should have more progress to show  than they currently do. If the info we have is even partially correct, Chris Roberts appears to be a poor manager and even a bit out of touch with modern methods of development. CIG continuing to provide release dates which it misses is unprofessional and at best, undermines confidence. At this stage of development, they should almost not be announcing releases until after such releases are ready.

But none of that, nothing that CIG has ever said or done, constitutes fraud or makes this a scam.

As for your example...

CIG promised to make a game. They also promised to make custom tools to develop that game. Their stretch goals which were funded also changed the scope and scale of the game.
They have produced demoes, they have created their tools, they have improved and worked on their engine.

Have they misinformed their backers? Kept facts hidden? Deliberately misrepresented information and facts the players need to know? Are engaged in deliberate fraud?
Maybe they are - but so far, there is no evidence of it. Just a few people engaged in the time honoured practise of mud slinging.

So far, it looks like CIG are developing the game. It looks like they are making progress. It looks like they are making mistakes doing so. But the game is still coming along. The features that were promised are being added. Slowly, but they are being added.

CIG are taking money on the promise that they will develop a game. The money is being used to develop the game. And with 400 Devs and 4 sites, it is easy to see where even $30 million a year could be spent. Is this a scam? Is this fraud? Because so far, it just looks like mudslinging.

Hello Kyrt.
'How many fingers am I holding up Winston?'
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wTFV9w4B0eg (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wTFV9w4B0eg)(edit)

CIG would tell you 5 or green.
The reality as in facts, truth, something you can check with your bare eyes says blue.

You are saying green.

Come on be smarter than them, compute the evidences for yourself, it would only take your good will.
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: Darklegend1 on January 07, 2017, 12:22:31 AM
But the buyer will be angry with me, and will even keep questioning my competency, ethics, morale and character but UNLESS i deliver the product to him he has every right to call me a scammer.

And I will ask you again.

CIG has done plenty that they should be questioned about.

But where is the **fraud**?

They are raising money by crowdfunding.
They are open about their objectives.
They have acknowledged that their original vision can't be delivered - because it has grown since the original Kickstarter.
They have not provided a release date and are very open about the fact that their product is currently in Alpha and hence subject to delays.

What are they doing wrong? They are giving release dates for Alpha patches which, by their nature, are subject to delays. That is unprofessional, IMO. But then, other companies would not be allowing Alpha access at this stage. But CIG needs to because this is part of what feeds their funding model. There are signs of bad management, poor communication and wasted funds/time/resources. With their stretch goals and extra funding, CIG transitioned away from the original game to a vision that is more akin to an actual MMORPG.....transitioned away rom a simplistic Wing Commander successor to a game more akin to WoW or SWTOR.

In short, transitioned into a game type that could requires hundreds of millions and the better part of a decade to develop rather than keep their original vision which was much more achievable.

So - I will ask again - where is the fraud? You say this is a scam? Where is the money going? Is it going into game development? Yes. It appears it is. Is it being siphoned off? Doesn't appear to be.

CIG are raising money, being upfront about the risks involved, and using that money as the backers intend. They are developing the game that they have promised. So there is no intent or action that seems to compromised fraud. A game that should take years and tens of millions to develop IS taking years and tens/hundreds of millions to develop.

Now - the crowdfunding model can be criticised for aspect such as its lack of accountability. CIGs marketing leaves a lot to be desired. CIG and Chris Roberts have made plenty of poor decisions, wasted a fair amount of time and money, and arguably should have more progress to show  than they currently do. If the info we have is even partially correct, Chris Roberts appears to be a poor manager and even a bit out of touch with modern methods of development. CIG continuing to provide release dates which it misses is unprofessional and at best, undermines confidence. At this stage of development, they should almost not be announcing releases until after such releases are ready.

But none of that, nothing that CIG has ever said or done, constitutes fraud or makes this a scam.

As for your example...

CIG promised to make a game. They also promised to make custom tools to develop that game. Their stretch goals which were funded also changed the scope and scale of the game.
They have produced demoes, they have created their tools, they have improved and worked on their engine.

Have they misinformed their backers? Kept facts hidden? Deliberately misrepresented information and facts the players need to know? Are engaged in deliberate fraud?
Maybe they are - but so far, there is no evidence of it. Just a few people engaged in the time honoured practise of mud slinging.

So far, it looks like CIG are developing the game. It looks like they are making progress. It looks like they are making mistakes doing so. But the game is still coming along. The features that were promised are being added. Slowly, but they are being added.

CIG are taking money on the promise that they will develop a game. The money is being used to develop the game. And with 400 Devs and 4 sites, it is easy to see where even $30 million a year could be spent. Is this a scam? Is this fraud? Because so far, it just looks like mudslinging.

Hello Kyrt.
'How many fingers am I holding up Winston?'
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wTFV9w4B0eg (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wTFV9w4B0eg)(edit)

CIG would tell you 5 or green.
The reality as in facts, truth, something you can check with your bare eyes says blue.

You are saying green.

Come on be smarter than them, compute the evidences for yourself, it would only take your good will.

LOL u really think he will understand this !!!!! :cripes:
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: Lir on January 07, 2017, 09:32:49 AM

LOL u really think he will understand this !!!!! :cripes:

Probably not. Let say that was that day 's good deed. Although I challenge him to play the quote&debunk bollox on that, could be fun if anything.
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: dsmart on January 09, 2017, 08:08:38 AM
$8K backer

Speak up if you have been censored on the RSI website (https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/comments/5msj0j/speak_up_if_you_have_been_censored_on_the_rsi/)

Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: dsmart on January 09, 2017, 04:05:09 PM
Chris Roberts in Der Spiegel (http://magazin.spiegel.de/SP/2017/2/148899560/index.html):

"SQ42 will probably be finished in 2017 (https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/comments/5n0l2a/chris_roberts_in_der_spiegel_sq42_will_probably/dc7s8h7/)"

He said PROBABLY
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: Kyrt on January 09, 2017, 10:38:25 PM
Come on be smarter than them, compute the evidences for yourself, it would only take your good will.

My good will tells me not to accuse someone of a crime without proof, especially when the intention behind that accusation appears to be nothing more than blatant mud slinging and the satisfaction of smearing another persons good name simply because you disagree with some aspect of his life or work.

CIG has enough issues and problems and things that they can be castigated over without making stuff up. For all that CIG are doing wrong with Star Citizen, for all the bad decisions and poor management and wasted money that you can point to, for all the missed deadlines and more...there is no need to levy the made up charge of "Fraud" or "Scam".

Take them to task for what they have done wrong. Don't make up false accusations simply because it gives you a thrill.
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: Padrepapp on January 10, 2017, 12:03:05 AM
Come on be smarter than them, compute the evidences for yourself, it would only take your good will.
another persons good name

are you talking about Chris Roberts? The current Chris Roberts? Good name after all the shit he has done? He already shit all over his name.
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: Darklegend1 on January 10, 2017, 05:54:45 AM
Chris Roberts in Der Spiegel (http://magazin.spiegel.de/SP/2017/2/148899560/index.html):

"SQ42 will probably be finished in 2017 (https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/comments/5n0l2a/chris_roberts_in_der_spiegel_sq42_will_probably/dc7s8h7/)"

He said PROBABLY
Lol and we all know what Chris Robert's "PROBABLY" means  :laugh: :laugh: "We have started working on it"
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: Flashwit on January 10, 2017, 10:04:55 AM
I have to say though, the backlash seems to have really started.

I compare the comments on that thread to things that I saw even just 6 months ago and the tone has changed a lot. There are a couple stalwart defenders still there but they get downvoted to hell. It really looks like the majority of r/starcitizen has woken up to what's really going on. I think they're still 'keeping the faith' in terms of hoping that it will come out, but expectations have dropped into a hole.
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: dsmart on January 10, 2017, 12:41:50 PM
Yeah, the tone has completely changed. Especially given the shenanigans that started in Q4/16.

And worst is yet to come.
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: Stan on January 10, 2017, 05:27:55 PM
I have to say though, the backlash seems to have really started.

I compare the comments on that thread to things that I saw even just 6 months ago and the tone has changed a lot. There are a couple stalwart defenders still there but they get downvoted to hell. It really looks like the majority of r/starcitizen has woken up to what's really going on. I think they're still 'keeping the faith' in terms of hoping that it will come out, but expectations have dropped into a hole.

Sure but at this point the conman dishes up some false hope.

I used to con people in MMOs (all in game ruses) and you could get a high % of people you scammed to jump through hoops in the hope that they hadn't just lost x or y item.

People could be had over days, running from place to place, doing all sorts of things because it was a relief to be told they hadn't been scammed but something had gone wrong and they just had to go to X or Y to get their stuff ...

All CIG have to do is keep telling people it is all going to be OK.

When some shit hits the fan admitting to a few screw ups will keep people bought in to the dream because  they will not want to admit failure.
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: Beexoffel on January 11, 2017, 10:36:30 AM
When some shit hits the fan admitting to a few screw ups will keep people bought in to the dream because  they will not want to admit failure.
A lot of shit has already hit the fans in the face so much they can't see anymore.
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: dsmart on January 13, 2017, 10:31:42 AM
Some new backer spending charts

(http://imgur.com/mwwMnfc.jpg)

(http://imgur.com/Dajx2cB.jpg)
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: dsmart on January 13, 2017, 11:06:38 AM
What it's like to be a disappointed hard core Star Citizen backer who had enough and got a refund (https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen_refunds/comments/5neekj/iqfish_gets_a_refund/dcdnt42/). All valid points

Quote
I'd prefer not replying here anymore so that this would not get used out of context like my earlier statements, but for the sake of integrity im gonna answer.

My arguments largely aim towards the PU, simply because we have no idea about SQ42 at all. I always thought of the singeplayer campaign as less important. I would have played it, but I am a lot more interested in a good multiplayer experience.

When I backed in January 2013, I had the dates in mind CIG presented back then. You know, the ones that proved to be absolutely impossible. I realized, as many people did too, that Star Citizen would take a LOT more time and effort and I was fine with it. I thought let them have their time, do things right and create something with the longevity of EVE online that people play for ten years.

For the longest time I was completely fine with the way things were going. CIG was growing nicely from something people would use their garage for to a fully fleged 350+ employee-company. The technology coming out of their hired talent amazed me, especially since I have close ties with CryTek and their employees personally. Thinks like the local physics grid, the procedural technology they are working on or the sheer amount of detail they put into the few assets we have seen so far are fantastic and I stand by that still.

Now to the ugly. On the last big presentations CIG screwed up. They announced SQ42 so many times and cancelled the presentation last minute, without telling anyone. And contrary to their video, I just can not believe that they realized it two days before the presentation. And if they did, that is proof of a horrible management. I have always said that they should take as long time as they need, but as a company funded in its entirety by backers, it is their damn obligation to tell us what is going on. And I don't care if there is a storyline that they don't want to spoil, we have to have access to information to how far things are along. If people don't want to be spoiled, they can choose to look away. The general style of the last two presentations were unbelievably unprofessional. I remember getting so hyped about CitizenCon that I stocked up beer and snacks and submitted a day off so I could stay up to like 5am (Living in Europe). A company with that much money, with people dedicated to working on stuff like that and a seperate pool of funding just for PR, just can not fail so hard at presentations again and again. They also did the atrocious UEE Warbonds video back then, right after telling anyone that every single post leading up to the event was basically false.

To sum this section up: I think CIGs focus is wrong. They got enough money. They are funded. They should focus on the actual gameplay and less on adding more and more fluff. Also rethink your PR. Act like the company you are, funded by the people. All your bills are paid by us, treat us with respect.

My second big concern is the community. If you look through my post history, you see that I submitted a few pretty critical comments and posts to the /r/starcitizen sub that were either downvoted to hell or upvoted to the top or even gilded. I pointed out 5 months ago, that all the design documents are incredibly dated and havent been talked about in detail since. Why does noone seem to care about how the actual game will play? Who cares for the 10th fighter or 5th mining ship if there won't be something interesting to do with it? How does Star Citizen want to keep players from leaving with interesting gameplay that can fill their incredibly large world? The last few months it has become worse. It feels like everyone reasonable that you could discuss with left the sub after the presentations and only the crazy people are left. People that celebrate the 159th "fan made trailer" cut together from footage of 2014. People that will defend CIG on every action, no matter how shitty or unprofessional their actions are. To be clear here, I think of CIGs devs as talented and inspiring, but there is something wrong in their PR/management department. I will not engage in personal witch hunts like Derek does, He and I both got no idea of what is going on behind their doors and anything he puts out is either speculation or made up.

I realize that I could go on for pages here. I have spent so much time around the projects, read so much stuff and wrote probably even more. It is such a huge project, that I cannot even discuss everything that is good or bad about the game. And the problem is that I fear CIG forgets how huge their project is. How huge the game they aim for is. There is a reason it has never been tried. Comparably small projects like GTA V eat up sums 5-6 times of CIGs budget. I really hate to say this, but the Star Citizen we will get in a few years is not the game they told us about.

And to make it clear once again: This post, my decision or anything in this process has anything to do with Derek Smart or his ramblings. In my eyes he is a troubled man that who tries anything to make him feel superior. He has jumped the bandwagon of people talking about Star Citizens problems and now thinks of himself as some form of messiahs. I 100% stand by anything I wrote on /r/dereksmart . Like others point out, life is not black or white. I couldn't be further from apologizing or even following Derek.
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: dsmart on January 13, 2017, 12:10:48 PM
The incoming refund cascade (https://www.ceddit.com/r/starcitizen/comments/5nsey5/incoming_refund_cascade/)

Quote
As many of you have noticed, I have taken a step back from my usual postings so that I could take a step back and study the landscape of backers and the lack of progress from CIG in a more detailed manner to focus on the details and get more in tune with the community.
As many of you have noticed, a lot of this subs superstars have been MIA and as /u/IqfishLP has pointed out that all that is left are the crazy zealots when he wrote his refund mia culpa. There is a reason for that if any of you may have figured out. Refunds.
There has been an increasing number of refunds from some of the largest and long time backers that have supported this game and for very good reason. They have paid attention and have woken up to the very harsh reality that this game is not going to ever be completed and some parts of it were never made to begin with. They have figured out that they have been providing funding for game that was not built by technical know how by a AAA league game designer/developer/pioneer/leader. But in fact, a person that has been run out of almost every industry he has dared to step his incompetent foot in. I have watched more long time whale backers that were once die hards and loved by this very community start to get refunds at an increasing and alarming rate. And I have noticed too that you have attacked them all.
2017 will not be the year of 3.0 or 3.1 or 4.0 or anything close to any development other than more and more blatant ship sales for a non game that has no mechanics to justify those ships to exist it. The reason for that is that ship sales are the one source of revenue there is. The burn rate of CIG and all of their unnecessary studios is creeping up on the money we have all bankrolled them with and will soon outpace their reserves. They cannot develop a game and create more ships to sell when their entire marketing objective is towards selling more ships. This "game" has become the laughing stock of the gaming world at large and you all know it.
As hilarious as it is to read the pathetic posts from people stating that CIG can take as long as they want. The reality is that time has run out for them and your "patience" is what they are counting on for them to keep kicking the can down the road so that Chris and co. can have their lifestyles further enriched by your desperation. Because you are not getting the game you were promised. Nothing even close to that. The old whales have figured that out and in time you will too. The difference is that they got their money back and by the time you figure this out, there will be no more money left for you to get yours.
My suggestion is that you head over to /r/starcitizen_refunds and see what others are doing to help themselves out of this mess. There is no shame in admitting that Derek Smart was in fact right about this entire thing and in fact, I encourage each and every one of you to reach out to him to discuss what can be done to get you the help you need. Derek is there for each and every one of you and has worked tirelessly to fight for you all to get your refunds. To date he has helped hundreds of commandos get back $10's of thousands of dollars back from a company that has lied to each and every one of you. Do not believe the untrue lies from the haters that refuse to accept that Derek has been a force of good on your behalf since this whole thing started. Believe yourself by reaching out to him and see for yourself. The time has come for you to be free of this scam once and for all.
If you have any doubts, then just ask yourself where is one single part of SQ42 to been seen that is not a tech demo or sizzle reel or behinds the scenes footage from a mocap session from years ago?
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: dsmart on January 13, 2017, 01:51:55 PM
Called it. So the long delayed schedule is looking to only now include the 2.6.x incremental updates

https://twitter.com/dsmart/status/819977559031083008

Quote
it's hilarious for me to hear from sources that CIG can't decide what to put in the schedule report update

(http://i.imgur.com/6OTxF14.png)

Notice how the heading mentions alien languages, but none of that appears in the body of the newsletter?
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: dsmart on January 13, 2017, 03:05:36 PM
OMG!! You have to read this book (https://www.dropbox.com/s/jeakavbiwcd71rb/How%20it%20Works.pdf?dl=1)!!  :laugh:

(http://i.imgur.com/UuyqP5K.jpg)
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: dsmart on January 13, 2017, 04:37:13 PM
So this appeared today

(http://i.imgur.com/EUy4l9N.jpg)

I tweeted this: https://twitter.com/dsmart/status/819976771332345861

Quote
Nice!! I can't wait to read it because I'm sure it's full of truth bombs seeing as Chris only lies to US media.

Apparently, the article is saying that the much touted 3.0 (aka Jesus Patch) which was coming in before Dec 19th, 2016, is now due out in late 2017

https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/comments/5ntd8v/why_this_announcements/

Quote
First sorry for my english. I can not understand cig announce the patches. In summer 16 they said till end of the year 2.6 and 3.0. Patch 2.6 came in December and this is ok cause I like to play a game without this many bugs and if Chris Roberts say they don’t push a patch live until it’s fine I can handle with it. So in summer they said 3.0 this year. But now in interviews (pc games or spiegel) it sounds like 3.0 can take until end of 2017. How can this be so absolutely over the time? OK the same was with 2.6 but there were some big problems and if I understood right they started the whole work on star marine again. Same thing on sq42. On evry event last year they said we will see something of the game on the next event. He promised after they fucked up citcon that to end of 2016 they want to show something. Again, no problem for me that they don’t show things when they are not ready but why do they always promise if they can’t hold. Is this a tactic to keep the hype?
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: dsmart on January 13, 2017, 04:47:32 PM
So apparently in today's Star Citizen happy hour stream, Todd Pappy let slip that 2.7 (not 3.0) was inbound

The YT version is online. FF to 34:50 to hear Pappy reference 2.7

Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: Stan on January 13, 2017, 07:48:20 PM
When some shit hits the fan admitting to a few screw ups will keep people bought in to the dream because  they will not want to admit failure.
A lot of shit has already hit the fans in the face so much they can't see anymore.

Yes but Lesnick has been eating it.
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: kirin-rex on January 13, 2017, 09:19:43 PM
OMG!! You have to read this book (https://www.dropbox.com/s/jeakavbiwcd71rb/How%20it%20Works.pdf?dl=1)!!  :laugh:

(http://i.imgur.com/UuyqP5K.jpg)

OMG, that book is both frightening and hilariously amazing.
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: Lir on January 14, 2017, 07:22:03 AM

Sure but at this point the conman dishes up some false hope.


Hmmm it's a lot different to the situation back in july 2015 when you coudln't say anything at all without beeing censored , downvoted, and namecalled by a vast majority.
 It's interesting and how ironical to watch those former-shitizens now saying the same exact things we've been saying all along.
 Compared to 2015, and even to a few months ago right before the citcon, r/sc has now become 'open minded' if you compare to the shitizens standards.
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: dsmart on January 14, 2017, 07:54:03 AM
Indeed. But we've always known that this would happen. In fact, only the paid Shillizens and toxic Shitizen buffoons, are still trying to stifle dissent. Others are just going for refunds.
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: Beexoffel on January 14, 2017, 08:47:56 AM
So this appeared today

(http://i.imgur.com/EUy4l9N.jpg)

I tweeted this: https://twitter.com/dsmart/status/819976771332345861
AFAIK, "Das Geduldsspiel" means "The Patience Game".
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: Narrenbart on January 14, 2017, 10:36:38 AM
So this appeared today

(http://i.imgur.com/EUy4l9N.jpg)

I tweeted this: https://twitter.com/dsmart/status/819976771332345861
AFAIK, "Das Geduldsspiel" means "The Patience Game".
*The waiting game :)

https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/comments/5nx7qk/gamestar_article_google_translated/
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: Narrenbart on January 14, 2017, 10:46:40 AM
Basically this interview is really ...  I don't know where to start ...
Chris Roberts compares dropping a gun on a planet with player housing ... It's the same game mechanic ... just instead of a gun you drop a house ...
Either this guy has no idea about playerhousing or someone dropped a house on him ...

In his mind, playhousing is just a days hackjob i guess. Nobody who resembles a developer by the farthest meanings would ever think that this will work ...
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: Beexoffel on January 14, 2017, 10:53:22 AM
*The waiting game :)

https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/comments/5nx7qk/gamestar_article_google_translated/
Thanks!
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: Stan on January 14, 2017, 06:02:04 PM
Basically this interview is really ...  I don't know where to start ...
Chris Roberts compares dropping a gun on a planet with player housing ... It's the same game mechanic ... just instead of a gun you drop a house ...
Either this guy has no idea about playerhousing or someone dropped a house on him ...

In his mind, playhousing is just a days hackjob i guess. Nobody who resembles a developer by the farthest meanings would ever think that this will work ...

JPEG houses .. .coming soon...
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: dsmart on January 16, 2017, 09:39:30 AM
SQ42 on console. Blackmailing your backers 101 (http://www.twitlonger.com/show/n_1sphli5)

Quote
As soon as news broke about the Lumberyard engine switch, I knew this was going to happen. Which is pretty much why I mentioned it as one of the bullet points my Irreconcilable Differences blog.

http://www.dereksmart.com/2016/12/star-citizen-irreconcilable-differences/

It just makes sense from a financial perspective.

The most hilarious thing is that they won't dare try to put Star Citizen on consoles, like Frontier did with Elite Dangerous because it's an un-optimized mess. Plus backer whales will completely revolt. Remember the "I am a PC game" spiel from 2012? Or how Chris Roberts proclaimed that he was "Going to save PC gaming"? No? Here it is again:


But with SQ42, given his recent statements (which you can read below) in the media about using it to fund SC if funding stopped, I think he is basically blackmailing backers now. See, if backers stop putting money into the SC furnace, then Chris will have to use SQ42 to fund it. Just like he said. Hence a console version seeing as most of the people who would have bought SQ42, have already PRE-PAID for it. So the growth path, especially for a space game with a completely disastrous and tarnished rep, is severely limited.

It's a fucking genius plan if you ask me.

http://dereksmart.com/forums/topic/star-citizen-musings/#post-5198
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: dsmart on January 17, 2017, 03:39:30 PM
So as I reported a few months back about the high level execs and devs exiting the project, a group of them have started updating their social media profiles to reflect this.

The latest CFO (!), Joe Sothy left a few months back, changed his LinkedIn profile to consultant to CIG. Then a few weeks ago, he has updated it show that he left in Oct 2016.

As I mentioned on Twitter (https://twitter.com/dsmart/status/821420169897582593), recently, Ali Brown updated his social media to show he was no longer on the project. Then once I mentioned it on Twitter - without even mentioning his name - he later reverted it back.

Proof:

Jan 16th (before)

(http://imgur.com/3gQytfu.png)

Jan 17th (after I broke the news)

(http://imgur.com/75rACdk.jpg)

So, along with one of the top SQ42 producers, Director of graphics engineering, the CFO, and several other top people, are GONE

This issue with Ali B is the first time we've seen someone revert their employment status like this. usually they don't even update it

Why people who no longer work for a company are scared to say that they don't. source: "payout bonuses won't be paid"

It's a double-edged sword. you either risk being attacked by Shitizens for exiting the project or risk your rep for saying you worked on it


Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: dsmart on January 17, 2017, 04:11:03 PM
Star Citizen Scam Hall meeting is online. It's pre-taped cuz you know, croberts will NEVER face a live audience


Go ahead, tell me that doesn't look like a bunch of stoned college dropouts theory-crafting about a class they're totally failing

https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/comments/5ol7zy/star_citizen_subscribers_town_hall_persistent/dck69ri/

Quote
I had low expectations, but that was just awful. Half of the questions were on things we already had clear answers to, and the other half were plain stupid. I think the only new information was a tiny bit of insight into some of the environmental hazards we may run into.
I don't know how many of you saw it, but there were some really good questions on the forum thread, and all them got ignored. I was having trouble justifying my subscription after all of the recent changes to community content, and I think this was the final nail in the coffin.
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: dsmart on January 17, 2017, 07:21:31 PM
Those Shillizens over at ex-INN wrote a very good article. Of course it's too little, too late. I've been asking them to hold CIG/RSI accountable for years now. They just laughed. Then attacked me.

Let's talk about the nature of community updates (https://relay.sc/article/lets-talk-about-the-nature-of-community-updates)
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: Stan on January 17, 2017, 08:59:17 PM
So as I reported a few months back about the high level execs and devs exiting the project, a group of them have started updating their social media profiles to reflect this.

The latest CFO (!), Joe Sothy left a few months back, changed his LinkedIn profile to consultant to CIG. Then a few weeks ago, he has updated it show that he left in Oct 2016.

As I mentioned on Twitter (https://twitter.com/dsmart/status/821420169897582593), recently, Ali Brown updated his social media to show he was no longer on the project. Then once I mentioned it on Twitter - without even mentioning his name - he later reverted it back.

Proof:

Jan 16th (before)

(http://imgur.com/3gQytfu.png)

Jan 17th (after I broke the news)

(http://imgur.com/75rACdk.jpg)

So, along with one of the top SQ42 producers, Director of graphics engineering, the CFO, and several other top people, are GONE

This issue with Ali B is the first time we've seen someone revert their employment status like this. usually they don't even update it

Why people who no longer work for a company are scared to say that they don't. source: "payout bonuses won't be paid"

It's a double-edged sword. you either risk being attacked by Shitizens for exiting the project or risk your rep for saying you worked on it

Wouldn't we expect 5% or so per year employee churn to be normal ?

The level of people leaving and their positions is not  normal for what ought to be a career highlight on which careers are built.

Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: Narrenbart on January 17, 2017, 11:26:27 PM
Star Citizen Scam Hall meeting is online. It's pre-taped cuz you know, croberts will NEVER face a live audience


Go ahead, tell me that doesn't look like a bunch of stoned college dropouts theory-crafting about a class they're totally failing

https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/comments/5ol7zy/star_citizen_subscribers_town_hall_persistent/dck69ri/

Quote
I had low expectations, but that was just awful. Half of the questions were on things we already had clear answers to, and the other half were plain stupid. I think the only new information was a tiny bit of insight into some of the environmental hazards we may run into.
I don't know how many of you saw it, but there were some really good questions on the forum thread, and all them got ignored. I was having trouble justifying my subscription after all of the recent changes to community content, and I think this was the final nail in the coffin.

Geeeez what is happening with CRs chin is he turning into ...
(http://i.imgur.com/O55pqED.png)
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: dsmart on January 18, 2017, 06:47:52 AM
ScruffPuff wrote this over on SA (https://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3800238&userid=0&perpage=40&pagenumber=439#post468465804), and I had to nab it.

Quote
Quote
For fuck sake CIG. You're 4 years into development and you have nothing to show. A 30 minute video of 4 middle-aged nerds sat in director's chairs talking about vague ideas of 'this might happen' or 'we're thinking it could be like...' or 'maybe it works like...'.

You've blown through ONE HUNDRED MILLION DOLLARS!!! Stop fucking talking. Go and show me these systems, show me the work in progress, show me the proof of concept, hell show me the fucking design documents.

You're promising to make the most ambitious and complex game ever created and you're still talking about concepts for basic functionality like a fucking logoff timer... or fuel rods for ships... after 4 fucking years!

Do you know what I thought of when I was watching that? Those 'Relay' nerds or whatever they're called. Tell me, what is the difference between Crobbler and Tony Z sitting there talking you through their ~~DREAMS~~ and Dolvak or bowtie dude talking you through his? Neither are gonna fucking happen! It's pie-in-the-sky, 'imagine how cool in would be' bullshit which they ask you to pledge hundreds of dollars to prove that you believe.

Don't give them any money. If you've ever given them any money apply for a refund to get it back. This is my Star Citizen meltdown and you can have it for free.

Fuck Chris Roberts.

(https://i.imgur.com/CJc7mab.png)
And this right here is why this game will never come out. Derek maintains the viewpoint (or did in his July Blog™) that it's a technical impossibility, and that may be true. Others maintain that the scummy business practices are to blame, others point to just how awful a job they've done so far as the necessary evidence against its completion. All valid points. But ultimately, even in a parallel universe where all other problems are solved, Star Citizen was never possible with Chris Roberts heading it. The man has no idea whatsoever how to make a game - he just thinks of "cool shit" like some 10-year old kid theorycrafting on a playground, with no idea how or if it would work in a game. Wing Commander was released because the tech of the time forcibly constrained him into a little box. The box is gone, and the idiot is free. He's taken over $100 million dollars of other people's money, opened several studios and employed hundreds of workers, and he has no idea what to tell them all to do. He has no idea what they're all supposed to be building, how it's supposed to work, and how any of it fits together. Meanwhile money is getting spent - every paycheck, every rent check, every space door - money gone - with nothing to show for it. Still no game, still no usable code, still no functioning tech demo, still no design, still no plan. Just the sweet smell of burning cash.

We're in 2017, a little more than 2 weeks in, and nothing's working. But it's time to talk about what "might be cool if." In 2 more weeks, nothing will be done. In 2 months - still nothing. At some point this year there will be a 30GB "patch" labelled "3.0" and it will be the same broken shit with a tacked-on vestigial feature like "Atmosphere 2.0" where they found a way to decouple the airlock <USE> prompt from your spacesuit and actually track whether or not the zone you're in has air in it (admittedly a very tricky problem that was somehow solved in 2001 by the Everquest guys, and probably earlier than that).

They can't build a basic space station without you clipping through the walls, but they're gonna have fleet battles with intelligent NPC AIs everywhere. They can't get the flight model working, but they're going to have procedural hand-crafted planets so big you can find things the developers didn't intend and have "emergent gameplay". They can't code a patcher, but they're going to have a system where you can mine asteroids and make custom additives for your fuel that will have an effect on the game and usher in a new supply/demand economy based on the new fuel tech that you've discovered yourself but kept secret from rival corporations.

You can't even hide in a fucking crate yet.

But all this is going to happen. Chris saw the Matrix and thought it was a documentary, so now all he has to do is make the same exact thing but have 100 star systems in it instead of just one measly planet. This is a totally reasonable and achievable goal, certainly for a man whose highest life achievements are getting the boot from Microsoft, getting blacklisted from Hollywood, and fucking a witch. Put this fucker in charge - he's got this. He just needs a little more money to complete the refactoring; the pipelines are looking good, and subsumption is a go. Once he's done rebuilding other people's long-optimized technology to not work right, he's just one more engine switch away from things really taking off. Partnerships with Amazon are removing the blockers, and manchildren everywhere who have inexplicable reproduced are using their kids' college funds to prop this project up when they're not busy building Constellation replicas in their basements.

I hope Windows 24 can run a DOS launcher.
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: BigM on January 18, 2017, 08:21:34 AM
Have to give ScruffPuff credit, he wrote a great post that hits on all major points. He went a little far with "getting the boot from Microsoft, getting blacklisted from Hollywood, and fucking a witch" but really I understand why he said it. Backers are starting to see the light and understand one thing they hate to admit, Smart was right!

Be interesting to watch the next move by Roberts and Sandi! Clearly, they must be a little worried they could end up in prison for the fraud they been throwing at these backers. Looks like we are in the home stretch and something will end up going BOOM ver soon.
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: Darklegend1 on January 18, 2017, 11:06:35 AM
are they giving out refunds now?? i have only 60$ tied but was ok with it as i thought i would get something eventually but now i think its a waste of even 60$...lolwill get escape from tarkov instead. :laugh:

oops sorry. hit "modify" instead of "quote"
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: dsmart on January 18, 2017, 06:00:06 PM
are they giving out refunds now?? i have only 60$ tied but was ok with it as i thought i would get something eventually but now i think its a waste of even 60$...lolwill get escape from tarkov instead. :laugh:

oops sorry. hit "modify" instead of "quote"

Yeah, refunds are still happening. They have no choice. And for that amount of money, you won't get any resistance I don't think. So better go for it.
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: Stan on January 18, 2017, 06:52:43 PM
Have to give ScruffPuff credit, he wrote a great post that hits on all major points. He went a little far with "getting the boot from Microsoft, getting blacklisted from Hollywood, and fucking a witch" but really I understand why he said it. Backers are starting to see the light and understand one thing they hate to admit, Smart was right!

Be interesting to watch the next move by Roberts and Sandi! Clearly, they must be a little worried they could end up in prison for the fraud they been throwing at these backers. Looks like we are in the home stretch and something will end up going BOOM ver soon.

No he didn't.

Stealing $140 mil from gamers went a lot too far.   
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: dsmart on January 18, 2017, 07:02:16 PM
This is what a studio with $140m and no game, is doing with the money. They have a makeup artist. For a video segment

(http://i.imgur.com/I2itifS.jpg)
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: Stan on January 18, 2017, 07:27:10 PM
This is what a studio with $140m and no game, is doing with the money. They have a makeup artist. For a video segment

(http://i.imgur.com/I2itifS.jpg)

There is a Fluffer under the desk too !

(http://static.fjcdn.com/pictures/Fluffer_145bbd_165770.jpg)
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: Darklegend1 on January 18, 2017, 11:03:49 PM
are they giving out refunds now?? i have only 60$ tied but was ok with it as i thought i would get something eventually but now i think its a waste of even 60$...lolwill get escape from tarkov instead. :laugh:

oops sorry. hit "modify" instead of "quote"

Yeah, refunds are still happening. They have no choice. And for that amount of money, you won't get any resistance I don't think. So better go for it.

Refund request sent to CIG lets see what their reply will be :supaburn:.
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: helimoth on January 19, 2017, 03:07:24 AM
This is what a studio with $140m and no game, is doing with the money. They have a makeup artist. For a video segment

(http://i.imgur.com/I2itifS.jpg)

we're back to spend more of your cash on stuff non-related to game development. we even hired a person to try make chris look better on camera - tee hee
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: Daz on January 19, 2017, 03:40:15 AM
are they giving out refunds now?? i have only 60$ tied but was ok with it as i thought i would get something eventually but now i think its a waste of even 60$...lolwill get escape from tarkov instead. :laugh:

oops sorry. hit "modify" instead of "quote"

Yeah, refunds are still happening. They have no choice. And for that amount of money, you won't get any resistance I don't think. So better go for it.

Refund request sent to CIG lets see what their reply will be :supaburn: .


"Are you sure?" "Please watch this video / wait for patch X" "Are you really, really sure?"


Then you say yes and they send you money.
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: Darklegend1 on January 19, 2017, 05:49:35 AM
are they giving out refunds now?? i have only 60$ tied but was ok with it as i thought i would get something eventually but now i think its a waste of even 60$...lolwill get escape from tarkov instead. :laugh:

oops sorry. hit "modify" instead of "quote"

Yeah, refunds are still happening. They have no choice. And for that amount of money, you won't get any resistance I don't think. So better go for it.

Refund request sent to CIG lets see what their reply will be :supaburn: .


"Are you sure?" "Please watch this video / wait for patch X" "Are you really, really sure?"


Then you say yes and they send you money.

I believe they will send video to view as you say . they will not say wait for patch coz they themselves now know that 3.0 is dream and they cant ask me to wait for it coz i will ask so when is it coming and they wont be having any answer again.. Coming Soon™ :laugh:
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: dsmart on January 19, 2017, 02:46:09 PM
So they refactored the AtV format again.


Quote
Published on Jan 19, 2017
Around the Verse returns with a new format that focuses on specific aspects of the game rather than one particular studio. Chris Roberts and Sandi Gardiner host this week’s show, which features a look at the work that went into the new and improved pirate swarm in Alpha 2.6

When nobody wants to go on camera so they later get attacked, or when you're downsizing and have no studios to showcase, you downsize the shows first.

Entire show - about nothing (Pirate Swarm is already an old - old - feature). And still nothing about 3.0, the schedule, or SQ42.
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: dsmart on January 19, 2017, 03:19:03 PM
LOL!!

PETITION: Make Derek Smart the new host of Around The 'Verse (https://www.change.org/p/cloud-imperium-games-make-derek-smart-the-new-host-of-around-the-verse)
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: dsmart on January 19, 2017, 03:24:34 PM
$5K Star Citizen whale decided to bail. Foolishly he posted his reasons on RSI forums. They deleted it. Reddit version (https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/comments/5oz6fb/my_personal_leaving_the_game_thread_has_been_shut/).
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: dsmart on January 19, 2017, 04:50:09 PM
Wow, this Anantech thread (https://forums.anandtech.com/threads/star-citizen-development-discussion-is-derek-smart-right.2493837/page-31) is still going, and is currently 31 pages long
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: Darklegend1 on January 20, 2017, 10:50:01 PM
hahaha was reading the new production schedule and saw this there

"Some tasks may require further QA, bug-fixing and iteration.

Tasks that delay beyond our target dates might cause the release of 2.6.1 to be delayed, or might be excluded from 2.6.1 if appropriate to maintain the release date target."

 :wtchris: what do you think guys .. BACKER MILKING HAS COMMENSED.. :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: Scruffpuff on January 21, 2017, 08:36:28 AM
hahaha was reading the new production schedule and saw this there

"Some tasks may require further QA, bug-fixing and iteration.

Tasks that delay beyond our target dates might cause the release of 2.6.1 to be delayed, or might be excluded from 2.6.1 if appropriate to maintain the release date target."

 :wtchris: what do you think guys .. BACKER MILKING HAS COMMENSED.. :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

What I like about this is all the false progress.  If there is no feature list for a release, and/or you can simply omit whatever you want to release by the target date, then what are you releasing?

The incremental version numbers mean absolutely nothing if they're not obligated to put anything in them.

Yet the faithful still point to "2.0, 2.1, 2.2" etc. as evidence of progress, for no other reason than a number went up.

The main obstacles to this project (off the top of my head, the fact that the engine doesn't work, as a minor example) are not getting chipped away in any meaningful sense.

CIG is trying to build a flying car like in Back to the Future, and they're pointing to the regular gasoline vehicle that's "coming together nicely" as evidence of their progress.  In their minds, making it fly with antigravity lifts is "like, the last 1% of the project.  We're 99% of the way there!"
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: dsmart on January 21, 2017, 09:55:25 AM
hahaha was reading the new production schedule and saw this there

"Some tasks may require further QA, bug-fixing and iteration.

Tasks that delay beyond our target dates might cause the release of 2.6.1 to be delayed, or might be excluded from 2.6.1 if appropriate to maintain the release date target."

 :wtchris: what do you think guys .. BACKER MILKING HAS COMMENSED.. :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

What I like about this is all the false progress.  If there is no feature list for a release, and/or you can simply omit whatever you want to release by the target date, then what are you releasing?

The incremental version numbers mean absolutely nothing if they're not obligated to put anything in them.

Yet the faithful still point to "2.0, 2.1, 2.2" etc. as evidence of progress, for no other reason than a number went up.

The main obstacles to this project (off the top of my head, the fact that the engine doesn't work, as a minor example) are not getting chipped away in any meaningful sense.

CIG is trying to build a flying car like in Back to the Future, and they're pointing to the regular gasoline vehicle that's "coming together nicely" as evidence of their progress.  In their minds, making it fly with antigravity lifts is "like, the last 1% of the project.  We're 99% of the way there!"

That's basically it. Also, no matter what they list as coming in a patch, they can walk it all back, not release any of it, but instead substitute some items e.g. backers are expecting planets in 3.0. I won't hold my breath.
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: dsmart on January 22, 2017, 10:11:59 AM
So Ben Parry was on the Open House stream after I left. This segment is him talking about my posting that Ali B had left (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gTvqDaU7TDI&feature=youtu.be&t=19288).

This despite the fact that it was Ali B who changed his own social media profiles to reflect the change.

https://twitter.com/dsmart/status/821434931968700416 (https://twitter.com/dsmart/status/821434931968700416)

BEFORE:

(http://i.imgur.com/3gQytfu.png)

AFTER:

(http://i.imgur.com/75rACdk.jpg)


Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: dsmart on January 23, 2017, 10:46:12 AM
(http://i.imgur.com/wykh0d8.jpg)

So who wants to claim $5K on my behalf, and donate it to charity?

Chris Roberts clearly stated that 3.0 was planned to come out end of year; and not on Dec 19th, as with 2.0

I wrote about that over here (http://dereksmart.com/forums/topic/sc-scoop/#post-5064). Excerpt:

Chris Robert's statements on video (@ 23:36).


Chris Robert's video statement transcript:

Quote
“..so, it’s our big end of the year release. er so er yeah, so we’re gonna get it out the end of the year; hopefully not on December 19th but, er, like last year….but it is a big one, so, not making er, I got shot for making promises, but er, that’s our goal.”

It takes a special kind of talent - and stupidity - to twist that into "oh no, he didn't promise 3.0 at all end of 2016"





Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: Darklegend1 on January 27, 2017, 04:08:15 AM
great news guys i just got my refund in my bank by RSI :woop: . I am quite happy i got out of this in time.
Thanks Mr Derek and all of you.
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: ripptide on January 27, 2017, 10:16:35 AM
great news guys i just got my refund in my bank by RSI :woop: . I am quite happy i got out of this in time.
Thanks Mr Derek and all of you.
Congrats! Feels good to be free again, no?  :)
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: dsmart on January 27, 2017, 02:31:33 PM
great news guys i just got my refund in my bank by RSI :woop: . I am quite happy i got out of this in time.
Thanks Mr Derek and all of you.

Outstanding!! Don't forget to post over a https://reddit.com/r/StarCitizen_Refunds/
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: Lir on January 27, 2017, 04:01:09 PM
great news guys i just got my refund in my bank by RSI :woop: . I am quite happy i got out of this in time.
Thanks Mr Derek and all of you.

Congrats !
Welcome back to the bright side. No croberts could ever troll you anymore now.
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: dsmart on January 29, 2017, 08:35:26 AM
OK, now that's a rant (https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen_refunds/comments/5qsh7p/my_sc_rant/).
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: dsmart on January 30, 2017, 10:56:36 AM
Star Citizen backers are well aware that the project is dying and beyond saving. All money lost. (https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/comments/5qy6sr/is_this_sub_becoming_increasingly_inactive_is_it/)

Reddit stats agree (https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/about/traffic/)
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: dsmart on January 30, 2017, 05:51:06 PM
We have new charts from our chart guy, boviscopophobic

I'll use data from this January since CIG has graciously refrained from having major sales events that corrupt the statistics.

These are the raw* hourly incomes over the past week. You can see that there are peak hours straddling the midnight GMT boundary, but there is noise that obscures the pattern a bit. You can also see that random $10000+ spike which is not, despite what one might think, actually a Wing Commander pack (unless store credit was used) and a probable War Pack ($5000).

(http://i.imgur.com/THFGoG8.png)

These are the smoothed high-res income data over the same week. It's a bit easier to see the 24-hour cycle here since the noise is smoothed out.

(http://i.imgur.com/jouizRy.png)

Finally, this is the average income per hour for the first four weeks of January. The big peak is 20-21 GMT, but I'd say 20-0 or 1 GMT are usually pretty busy hours. It's not really clear what that means; it could indicate Germans who are arriving home from work, Californians on lunch break, East Coasters buying ships at work, people on disability with erratic sleep schedules, ...

(http://i.imgur.com/ZYB9Tfz.png)

*) The hourly incomes are actually interpolated from time points that aren't sampled exactly on the hourly boundaries.
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: dsmart on February 01, 2017, 11:53:06 AM
Oh, this is great. One of the top ranking Shitizens has posted his E.L.E criteria (https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/comments/5rdlpb/would_you_be_disappointed_if_sc_failed/dd6ijpu/). Which is hilarious, since that's our roadmap as well.  :laugh:

(https://i.imgur.com/QW4ugL5.jpg)
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: nightfire on February 01, 2017, 01:12:53 PM
Oh, this is great. One of the top ranking Shitizens has posted his E.L.E criteria (https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/comments/5rdlpb/would_you_be_disappointed_if_sc_failed/dd6ijpu/).
If I understand the OP's logic correctly: to maintain guaranteed access to funding, an aspiring company simply needs to

* stay independent and steer clear of publishers
* achieve a critical size beyond "funded by family and friends" status

Now the world's governments and the IMF did bail out major banks and countries like Greece. But I refuse to believe that CIG already falls into the same category of "too big to fail"… they might eventually get there though if people don't watch out (http://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/comments/5r3yls/this_game_is_breathtaking_will_i_be_able_to_run/) :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: dsmart on February 01, 2017, 04:36:36 PM
Oh, this is great. One of the top ranking Shitizens has posted his E.L.E criteria (https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/comments/5rdlpb/would_you_be_disappointed_if_sc_failed/dd6ijpu/).
If I understand the OP's logic correctly: to maintain guaranteed access to funding, an aspiring company simply needs to

* stay independent and steer clear of publishers
* achieve a critical size beyond "funded by family and friends" status

Now the world's governments and the IMF did bail out major banks and countries like Greece. But I refuse to believe that CIG already falls into the same category of "too big to fail"… they might eventually get there though if people don't watch out (http://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/comments/5r3yls/this_game_is_breathtaking_will_i_be_able_to_run/) :rolleyes:

Funny thing is, that's the same "too big to fail" mentality they have going on, which is why they keep throwing money into a dumpster fire  - even as they ignore the fact that they're just stuck in Sunk Cost Fallacy and Cognitive Dissonance.
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: nightfire on February 01, 2017, 09:09:34 PM
Funny thing is, that's the same "too big to fail" mentality they have going on, which is why they keep throwing money into a dumpster fire  - even as they ignore the fact that they're just stuck in Sunk Cost Fallacy and Cognitive Dissonance.
I'm so curious to see how this will play out. My gut feeling tells me that they will hit bedrock in every direction during the course of this year, given the technical dead ends they've maneuvered themselves into. However, with the seemingly steady influx of fresh, uninformed and unscathed buyers replacing the exhausted backers who refund and leave, this money generator might work for longer than we think.

On the other hand, I would imagine that even the die-hardest enthusiasts must inevitably realize that the delays are not coming to an end, while other space sims with less promises, but "completed, tested and available now" appeal are hitting the market again and again.

Out of interest… apart from the hourly funding statistics, is there any public data for ship trades? Since many backers seem to believe that ship prices tend to rise, transaction prices of trades among users could be seen as an indicator of confidence in the future of the game. Has anyone tried to gather and consolidate such data, similar to to the funding data?
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: dsmart on February 02, 2017, 05:38:44 AM
I think that it will be a sudden controlled collapse, instead of a slow burn.

Also, we don't have metrics on ship sales as there is no data to pull from.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: dsmart on February 02, 2017, 08:00:27 AM
Another day, and more stolen art found in Star Citizen (https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/comments/5rlzpw/best_price_guaranteed/). Seriously, this is getting out of hand now, right?

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C3qxZmlWYAEN61W.jpg)

Someone made a GIF showing the watermark in the stolen image

(http://i.imgur.com/6wFRfUT.gif)

Meanwhile, over there....

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C3sA_FBUoAAgcOZ.jpg)
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: dsmart on February 02, 2017, 09:53:28 AM
Confessions of a Star Citizen backer who refunded/regained $34K (https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen_refunds/comments/5rgsnz/dear_whale_whats_your_refund_trigger/dd7ogd0/) (<-- not a typo)

(http://i.imgur.com/V7ITp0S.jpg)
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: Darklegend1 on February 10, 2017, 04:29:24 AM
Check this out

https://noticiasstarcitizen.wordpress.com/2017/02/07/asi-es-como-a-chris-roberts-se-le-ha-ido-de-las-manos-la-planeacion-de-star-citizen/

 :laugh: :laugh:
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: Darklegend1 on February 10, 2017, 04:43:29 AM
cant stop laughing after seeing this gif

(https://s24.postimg.org/v45amodvp/ezgif_com_optimize.gif)

 :laugh: :laugh:
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: Darklegend1 on February 10, 2017, 04:51:00 AM
Another day, and more stolen art found in Star Citizen (https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/comments/5rlzpw/best_price_guaranteed/). Seriously, this is getting out of hand now, right?

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C3qxZmlWYAEN61W.jpg)

Someone made a GIF showing the watermark in the stolen image

(http://i.imgur.com/6wFRfUT.gif)

Meanwhile, over there....

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C3sA_FBUoAAgcOZ.jpg)

LOL derek check out this article you will love it..

https://noticiasstarcitizen.wordpress.com/2017/02/02/cloud-imperium-games-lo-vuelve-a-hacer-utiliza-ilegalmente-material-de-terceros/

 :laugh: :laugh:
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: dsmart on February 10, 2017, 02:30:10 PM
LOL!! Even though Google Translate mangled it, I thought it was hilarious.  :laugh:
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: dsmart on February 10, 2017, 05:35:57 PM
This was posted over on SA. It's hilarious.  :laugh:

Quote
Here, journalists, I have researched a list of convenient questions for you to ask Chris Roberts in your next totally-not-a-paid-placement interview! No need to thank me- just be sure to read them verbatim.

At Gamescom in April of 2016 you demo'd the "Alpha" of Star Citizen's 3.0 patch (http://www.polygon.com/2016/8/19/12559536/star-citizen-version-30), which was slated to introduce NPC's and a larger game world. At the time you indicated that this was set to release before the end of the year.
At the moment, it is 2 months into 2017, and several statements by employees have given the impression that you have not even begun working on 3.0. Is that the case, and if so, what was it that you showed off last year at Gamescom? What prompted you to give late-2016 as a release date?

In an interview with Forbes in 2013, you said (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hYFCfRK4e6Y&t=1187s): "[Then] an alpha of the single-player game, and then finally a beta of the persistent universe by the end of the year (2014)." Now obviously that was wildly off the mark.
What was behind your estimates at that time, and what has changed to push the release date back by 3+ years with no end in sight? Are you addicted to that little tingle that comes from making declarative statements?

On your forums in 2014, Ben Lesnick, then director of community engagement and content strategy, said (https://forums.robertsspaceindustries.com/index.php?p=/discussion/comment/2368118#Comment_2368118): "   [... We] plan to launch the Persistent Universe sometime in 2015 and expect to have all the features we’ve talked about to date implemented and functioning (with the help of the community which will be testing them) over the course of the ensuing year." In an interview with Geekdomo in April 2014, Erin Roberts said (https://www.twitch.tv/geekdomo/b/519001941?t=11m13s): "For the first chapter [of Squadron 42], we're aiming for it to be towards the beginning of next year (2015)."What was behind their estimates at that time? It appears that in each of these quotes, the strategy when discussing release dates was just to say something approximately 12 months ahead of the current moment. Would you say your company has some kind of issue with estimating more than 5-6 months out? Would you say that the "Con" in CitizenCon does not, in fact, stand for "Convention?"

In this video, you begin waving your hands while describing procedural generation for star citizen in 2014. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kGZJP5oVUn8) In this video, you begin waving your hands while describing procedural generation for star citizen in 2016. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fDROliuDczo) These appear to be the same mechanics you've been waving your hands and describing for 2 years. What have you actually accomplished, you intolerable waste of skin?

 In september of last year, you angrily denied rumors that the SQ42 was delayed.  (http://www.pcgamer.com/roberts-space-industries-denies-squadron-42-delay-report/)  Less than a month later, you did a complete 180 on that statement and announced that the game was delayed, and promised an update in the near future. (http://www.gamespot.com/articles/star-citizens-single-player-game-squadron-42-delay/1100-6444340/) It's been 4 months since then and it is increasingly apparent that you weren't anywhere close to finishing the smallest part of this project. When you lie so blatantly, do your testicles kind of shrink up into your body or have you lost the ability to feel shame?

Virtually everything in this timeline is wrong. (https://cdn0.vox-cdn.com/thumbor/tYU_esDYIsxSeg9fIDTygfvxv3k=/800x0/filters:no_upscale()/cdn0.vox-cdn.com/uploads/chorus_asset/file/3325482/baftacr_33.0.JPG) Are you a loofah-faced shit gibbon?
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: SpaceTroll on February 10, 2017, 07:02:46 PM
This was posted over on SA. It's hilarious.  :laugh:

Quote
Here, journalists, I have researched a list of convenient questions for you to ask Chris Roberts in your next totally-not-a-paid-placement interview! No need to thank me- just be sure to read them verbatim.

At Gamescom in April of 2016 you demo'd the "Alpha" of Star Citizen's 3.0 patch (http://www.polygon.com/2016/8/19/12559536/star-citizen-version-30), which was slated to introduce NPC's and a larger game world. At the time you indicated that this was set to release before the end of the year.
At the moment, it is 2 months into 2017, and several statements by employees have given the impression that you have not even begun working on 3.0. Is that the case, and if so, what was it that you showed off last year at Gamescom? What prompted you to give late-2016 as a release date?

In an interview with Forbes in 2013, you said (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hYFCfRK4e6Y&t=1187s): "[Then] an alpha of the single-player game, and then finally a beta of the persistent universe by the end of the year (2014)." Now obviously that was wildly off the mark.
What was behind your estimates at that time, and what has changed to push the release date back by 3+ years with no end in sight? Are you addicted to that little tingle that comes from making declarative statements?

On your forums in 2014, Ben Lesnick, then director of community engagement and content strategy, said (https://forums.robertsspaceindustries.com/index.php?p=/discussion/comment/2368118#Comment_2368118): "   [... We] plan to launch the Persistent Universe sometime in 2015 and expect to have all the features we’ve talked about to date implemented and functioning (with the help of the community which will be testing them) over the course of the ensuing year." In an interview with Geekdomo in April 2014, Erin Roberts said (https://www.twitch.tv/geekdomo/b/519001941?t=11m13s): "For the first chapter [of Squadron 42], we're aiming for it to be towards the beginning of next year (2015)."What was behind their estimates at that time? It appears that in each of these quotes, the strategy when discussing release dates was just to say something approximately 12 months ahead of the current moment. Would you say your company has some kind of issue with estimating more than 5-6 months out? Would you say that the "Con" in CitizenCon does not, in fact, stand for "Convention?"

In this video, you begin waving your hands while describing procedural generation for star citizen in 2014. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kGZJP5oVUn8) In this video, you begin waving your hands while describing procedural generation for star citizen in 2016. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fDROliuDczo) These appear to be the same mechanics you've been waving your hands and describing for 2 years. What have you actually accomplished, you intolerable waste of skin?

 In september of last year, you angrily denied rumors that the SQ42 was delayed.  (http://www.pcgamer.com/roberts-space-industries-denies-squadron-42-delay-report/)  Less than a month later, you did a complete 180 on that statement and announced that the game was delayed, and promised an update in the near future. (http://www.gamespot.com/articles/star-citizens-single-player-game-squadron-42-delay/1100-6444340/) It's been 4 months since then and it is increasingly apparent that you weren't anywhere close to finishing the smallest part of this project. When you lie so blatantly, do your testicles kind of shrink up into your body or have you lost the ability to feel shame?

Virtually everything in this timeline is wrong. (https://cdn0.vox-cdn.com/thumbor/tYU_esDYIsxSeg9fIDTygfvxv3k=/800x0/filters:no_upscale()/cdn0.vox-cdn.com/uploads/chorus_asset/file/3325482/baftacr_33.0.JPG) Are you a loofah-faced shit gibbon?

Great post. Star Citizen is never late according to the shitizens.
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: dsmart on February 14, 2017, 06:30:35 PM
In what can only be described as desperation + hilarity, those buffoons over at CIG have a Valentine's Day sale (https://robertsspaceindustries.com/comm-link/transmission/15707-V-Day-Sale-Love-Is-In-The-Air-and-Space). Trending horribly of course.

Note the limited supplies. Of DIGITAL GOODS!

Also...

Quote
Thinking about getting serious? Nothing says ‘I care’ like the rugged Aegis Vanguard deep space fighter, a favorite among long range mercenary pilots and well-armed explorers alike. With firepower and the ability to get you and your co-pilot out of the most dangerous situations, the twin-boom Vanguard design is a favorite from Earth to the frontier.

By popular request, we are also making available the Battlefield Upgrade Kits (BUKs) for the Vanguard line, which allow captains to swap between variants on a single chassis. Please note that these upgrades are not available in the current alpha build of Star Citizen; their functionality will be added in a future patch.

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C4q0zkUWIAEAeim.jpg)

Also have some Valentines Day sales metrics (http://www.dereksmart.com/forum/index.php?topic=53.msg1064#msg1064).
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: dsmart on February 15, 2017, 05:03:44 AM
Meanwhile, over at FDev after the latest Elite Dangerous Beta stream (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wmpRiR1u6t4) was over...

https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showt...l=1#post5154427

Quote
I find it more hilarious that the game that started as "playing a ship" will have character customization sooner then the game that started as "play a pilot"
  :laugh:
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: dsmart on February 15, 2017, 08:56:44 AM
As we count down the days, and in which some people are thinking that CIG/RSI execs will disappear when the final collapse comes, I don't believe that they will run.

What I see happening is that, since it's crowd-funding, unless and until they actually 1) get sued by one whale - who can also seek class action status 2) they get investigated/sued by either the attorney general in CA or the FTC, they will get away with it.

Remember, it's not illegal for a business to fail. In fact, most startups have a pretty high failure rate; and in 2017, CIG is right on the cusp of that (http://www.statisticbrain.com/startup-failure-by-industry/). So unless and until they get sued by either backer(s), State, or Feds, and malfeasance and/or fraud are uncovered, they won't have done anything wrong in continuing to raise funds. Even if they lied about the financial state of the project. This is what whales aren't paying attention to, and which they should.
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: Stan on February 15, 2017, 08:11:14 PM
As we count down the days, and in which some people are thinking that CIG/RSI execs will disappear when the final collapse comes, I don't believe that they will run.

What I see happening is that, since it's crowd-funding, unless and until they actually 1) get sued by one whale - who can also seek class action status 2) they get investigated/sued by either the attorney general in CA or the FTC, they will get away with it.

Remember, it's not illegal for a business to fail. In fact, most startups have a pretty high failure rate; and in 2017, CIG is right on the cusp of that (http://www.statisticbrain.com/startup-failure-by-industry/). So unless and until they get sued by either backer(s), State, or Feds, and malfeasance and/or fraud are uncovered, they won't have done anything wrong in continuing to raise funds. Even if they lied about the financial state of the project. This is what whales aren't paying attention to, and which they should.



And if a whale was to sue them and lose it would cost the Whale a lot of $$$ presumably.

What is in it for the Whale if he could ask for a refund in any case.
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: dsmart on February 15, 2017, 08:39:19 PM
It's hilarious to me that CIG did a 2-for-1 Valentine's Day sale, but you can't gift 1 of the ships. It's amazing to me that they can pull off shit like this with impunity.

As someone over on SA said:

Quote
This is the best way to do Valentine's Day.

1: dumb enough to think this was a good idea
2: dumb enough actually buy it
3: tell significant other about it
4: be unable to gift it
5: try to explain you'll just have to keep it for yourself
6+: dumb enough to buy another that can be gifted because fucking hell or high water you're not giving away two ships to the so!!

Keep on ruining the relationships of the last 500 people who still believe.
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: dsmart on February 16, 2017, 02:22:34 PM
Ho Lee Cow this thread is amazing

Where do you see Star Citizen next month? 6 months? 1 year? [Redux] (https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/comments/5ue35p/where_do_you_see_star_citizen_next_month_6_months/ddtg7vb/)

Quote
honestly, at this point, if the game releases by the end of 2020 i will be surprised. half a year ago i would say that it would have been launched by 2020, almost definitivelly. because, you know, they had made huge progress in the backend structure and all the other buzzwords like that, and 2017 would be the year the content started dropping. wich was basically what they also said in 2015. and probably the year before that. by this point, im tired, and i suspect this game is heading for a disaster bigger than NMS, since that pile of steaming shit was atleast released. guess what, SC in its current state is an even bigger pile of steaming shit, and if sq42 is released before 2019, my guess is that it will be just as full of bugs and glitches as SC is now. i have been hyped for this game since 2012, im tired now. the lack of communication is really troubling. yes, they may show us an atv or two, bugsmashers, etc, showing what they are adding to the mini pu. but a year has passed by now since the launch of the mini pu, and it still looks pretty much the same. sure, there is a pirate station in an asteroid belt that took something like 2 months to make, and they tell us they are going to recycle shit and whatnot, and so that the pace of development is accelerating. i wouldnt know, i guess i cant notice speed changes in glaciers. what about an atv for squadron 42? oh right, i forgot, its probably still in the same stage it was when they showed the morrow tour. i would be glad to be proven wrong, but after NMS, im not falling for the same shit twice. im now expecting failure, rather than sucess. and hope is rapidly fading. i could beg CIG to actually show us their progress, not some shitty snippets, but a ton of people have done it before, so whats the point? it would just be a waste of time. im hoping that FD and their 10y plan for ED succeeds, because i feel no decent space game is ever coming out soon except for that one. atleast, they are making much more progress, even if they are not exactly sticking to schedule.


Quote
This post finally inspired me to cancel and get all my money back. The whole process of Star Citizen has been nothing but a disappointment for me and, like you, I see no end in sight for this. Thanks for posting this exchange.
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: nightfire on February 16, 2017, 04:25:57 PM
It's hilarious to me that CIG did a 2-for-1 Valentine's Day sale, but you can't gift 1 of the ships.
Isn't this actually very much to CIG's own disadvantage, and in the buyer's favor?

Gifted items aren't eligible for a refund (side note: is this still correct?). Therefore, an eligible backer who decides to go for a refund in the future would be able to claim the expense for both ships in the process. OTOH, if it was possible to gift one of the ships, the money for that item would be unrecoverable.

So from a customer-milking perspective, CIG should actually have forced buyers to gift one ship right away, preferably already during the checkout process. If I were CR, I would even have considered 3-1, 4-1 sales etc. with forced-gifting mechanics to accomodate whales with larger families  :D

Or am I missing something?
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: dsmart on February 16, 2017, 04:58:12 PM
It's hilarious to me that CIG did a 2-for-1 Valentine's Day sale, but you can't gift 1 of the ships.
Isn't this actually very much to CIG's own disadvantage, and in the buyer's favor?

Gifted items aren't eligible for a refund (side note: is this still correct?). Therefore, an eligible backer who decides to go for a refund in the future would be able to claim the expense for both ships in the process. OTOH, if it was possible to gift one of the ships, the money for that item would be unrecoverable.

So from a customer-milking perspective, CIG should actually have forced buyers to gift one ship right away, preferably already during the checkout process. If I were CR, I would even have considered 3-1, 4-1 sales etc. with forced-gifting mechanics to accomodate whales with larger families  :D

Or am I missing something?

No, you're not missing anything. It's CIG. So it's not supposed to make one lick of sense. Like - at all.
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: dsmart on February 22, 2017, 08:50:37 AM
Meanwhile over there (https://forums.robertsspaceindustries.com/discussion/372011/celebrate-2-6-1-show-your-support-buy-a-chit/p2)

Quote
People have spent a ridiculous amount of money on this game, some spent as much as the cost of a brand new car, this is an incredible level of support and commitment, it is hard to comprehend if you really think about it, even those that spent "just" hundreds of dollars gave this company many times what any other game company would have gotten from an individual for a single title ... and you know what all those people got in return for their generosity and trust? Yeah. Nobody has a problem funding the game, people have proven this many times over with this project, if we saw good work, real progress, honesty, respect and good business practices from the company, if we saw that our money is being used in a competent way ... we would gladly throw more money into the project, but this just isnt whats been going on and many backers are a bit unhappy at this point. Maybe CIG thought that the stream of money would never dry up, maybe they thought that there will always be more chumps with fresh wallets, maybe they didnt think at all, I dont know, but at this point if they sink the game ... its on them, because we did our part and gave them plenty of time and money to do it right, at least to get it to the point where giving them more money doesnt seem like a total waste.
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: nightfire on February 22, 2017, 10:50:41 AM
Meanwhile over there (https://forums.robertsspaceindustries.com/discussion/372011/celebrate-2-6-1-show-your-support-buy-a-chit/p2)
This on the RSI forum? How come they tolerate such heretic discussions in their own church?
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: Flashwit on February 22, 2017, 01:46:17 PM
Interesting indeed. I read the whole page that that post was on and there's a lot of discontent there. I'm surprised that it has basically reached the same levels as r/starcitizen. There was really just a single defender on that whole page.
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: dsmart on February 22, 2017, 05:13:43 PM
Interesting indeed. I read the whole page that that post was on and there's a lot of discontent there. I'm surprised that it has basically reached the same levels as r/starcitizen. There was really just a single defender on that whole page.

Yeah, the dissent is getting louder; though I don't know how that translates to anything. Also the 2.6.1 patch was basically a resounding thud. Can't wait to see what they release in the schedule this Friday.

Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: Stan on February 22, 2017, 05:52:00 PM
I like this guy from Meanwhile over there

"Rumple
Rumplestilskin   Posted: February 20
Edited: February 20 by Rumplestilskin
So many angry people. I've not been here long, but I have achieved concierge several times over already. I understand that by being relatively new to this project, I will not have the same fatigue from the long wait as many of you. I am sympathetic. But here are my thoughts, being the new eyes looking a things, but also having invested a down payment on a house already.

Yes, the end of the year was a complete disaster. From the delay of 2.6/3.0/SQ42 to the horribly managed holiday stream. However, in the time since then I have noticed many small tells that it seems people aren't seeing that make me feel all of this is much closer to done than we all think, and they will surprise the crap out of us one day with "3.0 in PTU" way before we expect it.

Why do I think this? One example, I read the interview with Chris' brother last night after work. (http://wccftech.com/star-citizen-exclusive-interview-erin-roberts/) He dropped a few things, unconsciously or not. It sounds to me like there is one more technical hurdle for 3.0, then it's basically just filling in the content. And perhaps I am letting my optimism read into it for me, but perhaps go read it, looking for what I am talking about, and see what you think.

And even if I am wrong, every time some small thing gets done, I take it as a sign that they are making progress, however small. That keeps the fires of hope and anticipation burning for me.

Something else I find distressing is that despite no matter how many times the concept of prioritization is explained, people still ignore it. There are many things wrong with the parts of the game we currently have, yes. However, many of them if corrected, would only have to be reworked again later due to some other change going after. Or, the fix for them needs some other change, which is still in line to get done. Do you know how angry it makes me to have to circle the desk at the Olisar ship deck in order to find a terminal that works? But, I know that it's a few seconds of annoyance, it will get fixed eventually, and it's not nearly important as many of the other things being worked on.

And some of you will call me a fan boy. And perhaps I am, even after only this short time. I am also not thinking with feelings of frustration and anger. I am attempting to look at the situation, use the limited information I have, and reach an assessment.

I still reach the same one in my mind. Things are progressing, things are getting done. It may be running behind, but it's not over.

And I am not yet ready to give up.

This is not meant to encourage anyone to contribute more. I firmly believe that is a personal decision. But I do encourage all of you who got caught up in this project to remember why. Think about how you felt about the idea of the game. About how you felt when you got into your first ship and shot up some pirates. Now hold onto that inspiration a little longer.

Don't let go until you stop seeing things happen. That's when it's time to form up the rebel army and storm the castle with torches and pitchforks.

Just my two pennies, don't spend it all in one place,

R"

Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: dsmart on February 22, 2017, 05:55:31 PM
Wow this thread (http://"https://forums.robertsspaceindustries.com/discussion/372011/celebrate-2-6-1-show-your-support-buy-a-chit"). It's like the precursor to the E.L.E.

(https://i.imgur.com/49Bn7nK.png)

Also, here is a new contender (https://forums.robertsspaceindustries.com/discussion/372558/feeling-angry-and-annoyed-everytime-i-play-sc)

Quote
Feeling angry and annoyed everytime i play SC

Its maybe the only one with that feeling. I can take that. But im been honest, everytime i play SC since 1.6 (when they started to migrate to google servers) my levels of angry and annoyance hit records. I'm not pretending they to release 3.0, SQ42 or anything, but look at what we have now...lots of ships, thats true. But gamepaly wise, content wise, technically...ive never played an early access for that long been so messy.

I understand the scope, theyre pretending to make the biggest most ambitious project ever done in the videogame industry, ok im not arguing with that. But what we have now? what are the foundations? are we really demanding the BDSSE with these foundations?

When you release an FPS shooter 2 years delayed, and its the most mediocre, not fun, buggy, laggy mess ever a big budget company has produced, you don't really have good foundations. When youre changing the flight model since the very first day because you don't know yet what you want to be, you don't have good foundations, when youre balancing one time and another, patch after patch, getting more and more far from been balanced after 2 years you don't have a good foundation, all that with an exponentially more complex and messy code that multiplies bugs and techincal troubles. Can we expect a BDSSE wiht those dirty foundations?

Forget about 3.0, planetary stuff, SQ42 and everything its not playable now, im not going there, i don't even want that till they are 100% sure its fun, playable, enjoyable, and techincally acceptable. I don't want it.

Think about what we have now, and think about that been in development for about 4 years, with 2 years actively played by the comunity with lots of feedback. And now ask to yourself, is this acceptable?

Don't take me wrong, i want the project to be released as soon as posible and i want it to be a damn good game, and thats why im not asking for 3.0, SQ42 release date or more ships, ive learned to not expect new things from CIG the ahrd way, and im fine with that, lets focus on the game we play every day. I just want an acceptable game with the poor content we have now, im not asking for the moon, given that theyve been developing this part of the game 4 years and 2 been public alpha...

You can't make the most ambitious project ever, with a softy, tender community, been always gratefull, and patient. The foundations are a mess, and they are still changing pretty basic ground things as it was they first year of development.

Why they keep selling and making new ships? Do we really need more ships? at this rate they will ahve to remodel 20 ships per year to keep up with everything else, more work, more money wasted, and more shit to sell.

And whats wrong with the servers? why theyre always under stress? are they investing in server side? can't we expect a good server support from a hundred million dollar game funded by the backers???? is that begging for too much???

Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: dsmart on February 22, 2017, 05:57:14 PM
I like this guy from Meanwhile over there

"Rumple
Rumplestilskin   Posted: February 20
Edited: February 20 by Rumplestilskin

His post makes sense (https://forums.robertsspaceindustries.com/discussion/comment/7539106/#Comment_7539106), since he is one of those (https://robertsspaceindustries.com/citizens/Rumplestilskin) who just splurged $15K on a Completionist (http://www.dereksmart.com/forum/index.php?topic=29.msg1131#msg1131) less than 24hrs ago.

Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: dsmart on February 22, 2017, 06:03:00 PM
He paid $60 bux (https://forums.robertsspaceindustries.com/discussion/372557/dont-buy-tihs-game#latest); then put in for a refund shortly thereafter.
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: Narrenbart on February 22, 2017, 06:24:49 PM
Wow this thread (http://"https://forums.robertsspaceindustries.com/discussion/372011/celebrate-2-6-1-show-your-support-buy-a-chit"). It's like the precursor to the E.L.E.

(https://i.imgur.com/49Bn7nK.png)

Also, here is a new contender (https://forums.robertsspaceindustries.com/discussion/372558/feeling-angry-and-annoyed-everytime-i-play-sc)

Quote
Feeling angry and annoyed everytime i play SC

Its maybe the only one with that feeling. I can take that. But im been honest, everytime i play SC since 1.6 (when they started to migrate to google servers) my levels of angry and annoyance hit records. I'm not pretending they to release 3.0, SQ42 or anything, but look at what we have now...lots of ships, thats true. But gamepaly wise, content wise, technically...ive never played an early access for that long been so messy.

I understand the scope, theyre pretending to make the biggest most ambitious project ever done in the videogame industry, ok im not arguing with that. But what we have now? what are the foundations? are we really demanding the BDSSE with these foundations?

When you release an FPS shooter 2 years delayed, and its the most mediocre, not fun, buggy, laggy mess ever a big budget company has produced, you don't really have good foundations. When youre changing the flight model since the very first day because you don't know yet what you want to be, you don't have good foundations, when youre balancing one time and another, patch after patch, getting more and more far from been balanced after 2 years you don't have a good foundation, all that with an exponentially more complex and messy code that multiplies bugs and techincal troubles. Can we expect a BDSSE wiht those dirty foundations?

Forget about 3.0, planetary stuff, SQ42 and everything its not playable now, im not going there, i don't even want that till they are 100% sure its fun, playable, enjoyable, and techincally acceptable. I don't want it.

Think about what we have now, and think about that been in development for about 4 years, with 2 years actively played by the comunity with lots of feedback. And now ask to yourself, is this acceptable?

Don't take me wrong, i want the project to be released as soon as posible and i want it to be a damn good game, and thats why im not asking for 3.0, SQ42 release date or more ships, ive learned to not expect new things from CIG the ahrd way, and im fine with that, lets focus on the game we play every day. I just want an acceptable game with the poor content we have now, im not asking for the moon, given that theyve been developing this part of the game 4 years and 2 been public alpha...

You can't make the most ambitious project ever, with a softy, tender community, been always gratefull, and patient. The foundations are a mess, and they are still changing pretty basic ground things as it was they first year of development.

Why they keep selling and making new ships? Do we really need more ships? at this rate they will ahve to remodel 20 ships per year to keep up with everything else, more work, more money wasted, and more shit to sell.

And whats wrong with the servers? why theyre always under stress? are they investing in server side? can't we expect a good server support from a hundred million dollar game funded by the backers???? is that begging for too much???
A quick humble word on balancing ...
Why the hell are they even bother to try to balance a game where not all relevant gameplay elements are implemented??
Tell your community .. "hey not everything is in the game it makes absolutly no sense in balancing cause it will change" is 1000 times better than to fuck up the system and min maxing variables without any concept that will make your customers angry (missles to strong, turrets to weak, etc ...).
Why aren't they just concentrate on a good, fast and fun flight system ... but I guess they messed up the engine, so fast is out of range without having heavy collider issues.
Instead of fun and fast they will produce a slow and boring system with the excuse of "immersion" when a paper plane could fly faster than the SC spaceships.

Wasted founds ... but the backers will nev ... oh wait they know but they are OK with it because only CIG is understanding game development (and has ever since it has been a little girl)
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: dsmart on February 22, 2017, 06:50:49 PM
Ah yeah, those were simpler times. Back when the dreams were flowing uninterrupted.

Bookmark the next 3 months (https://forums.robertsspaceindustries.com/discussion/324520/bookmark-the-next-3-months) - March 2016 (Edited April 2016)

Quote
I'm going to stick my neck out here and say that the next 3 months leading up to July are going to be memorable in the development timeline of Star Citizen and the PU. Something we'll look back on and think 'yeah, that was when it started to realise it's potential'.

I believe we are going to start seeing S42 assets and development released into the baby pu over the next 3 months: shopping, FPS aboard the Starfarer, planetary landing (bit of a game changer that one), new locations, female characters, currency and more. I'm excited.

Check out 10 for the Erin, specifically at 16:08:

Edit: the latest dev report as of 10th April 2016:

Extracts from CIG dev announcements re shopping:

Development

The major focus during the month of March here in Austin has been Shopping!

By this I do not mean that we all went to the mall together to pick up the hottest fashion trends, but rather we focused on driving the features to completion that are required to get the shop environments functional for players. Lead Designer Rob Reininger has been driving various subfeatures like the Single-Item Transaction UI and flow and the shop environment item setup. Pete Mackay has been driving the pricing of all the various items that we will be selling in the shops.

This has required much coordination between our Design and Community teams in LA and our Design Director Todd Papy and Pete has handled it just swimmingly. We’re now implementing the established prices into DataForge where they will exist statically until we bring our formulaic solution online.

The items will be able to be purchased with a new currency we’ve established, internally called Alpha Currency. This currency exists for the sole purpose of testing out these prices and balancing the game, and will exist separately from UEC or REC. At any point we’ll be able to wipe Alpha Currency and start fresh if something goes awry, and this will help us nail down final pricing numbers before we go Live.

Along with the Shopping frontend comes the work being done to support the Shopping backend. The Server Team here in Austin has been setting up the ability to add/subtract Alpha Currency in game and handing it off to the UI and Design teams in the UK to use for the shopping interface and providing alpha currency rewards via completing missions.

This work is part of Persistence as a whole, which made significant progress this month. We finally integrated Persistence into our main development stream, which means we can’t go back to the way things were before and Persistence is here to stay.

Engineering

This month, it was all about shopping and figuring out the best way to give you a perfect shopping experience. This feature has many elements that required a cool collaboration between us and the other studios. Which, so far, has been a lot of fun.

We created a new AR-based shopping interface for clothes and personal weapons. Also a Catalog-based shopping system for vehicle components.

With the different types of clothes that you can buy, we had to create a tryout camera to enable the players to preview them on their character.

There was also work on a new shop inventory and layout randomizer.
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: dsmart on February 23, 2017, 05:52:57 AM
As is mentioned* in this Ho Lee Chit thread (https://forums.robertsspaceindustries.com/discussion/comment/7536669/#Comment_7536669)

Spectrum, which they just unveiled along with the horrid 2.6.1 patch from a week ago, is basically a re-skinned Discord; only horrid. And there is no way to track discussions.

So by killing the forums and migrating to Spectrum, they pretty much kill all historical records, as well as the upcoming massive dissent when backers finally figure out that SQ42 is DOA, and 3.0 is probably a Dec 2017 release - if at all.

They can't stop the signal. There is always Reddit - or my forums here, which I setup because somehow I predicted that they would do this; and that all history would be lost when CIG disappears and it all gets removed.

Basically, CIG is preparing for all out hostilities with their backers; and this appears to be part of the plan.

*
Quote
I'm not sure I want to support CIG much these days...

They haven't done much to show me they want it.

They ignored ALL the big ticket Issue Council items during the PTU; I mean there were things with hundreds of valid Contributions, video evidence, pictures added... and what does CIG do?

They fixed issues that had absolutely NO Issue Council tickets filed, at all.... yeah that Issue Council really helps... there were even some things noted in the patch notes that they "added" that players on the PTU were never even told anything about, and so thus never tested... Makes ya go. Hmmmm.... don't it? I also can't count how many changes they did to various individual ships in the PTU that were NOT included in the Patch notes! So next time they do a patch, read the patch notes, then go look for the things on the Issue Council.

Now, they're closing these Forums down.

They've disabled the "New Discussion" button for more then half the users here; so we can't make new threads anymore, but only reply to existing ones. They want to push everyone over to Spectrum, which many people here do not like. It has soooo many problems, and had soooo many Issue Council reports, its not funny. Now where are all those reports? Gone. Wiped to oblivion, because CIG closed the PTU Issue Council...

Now this Spectrum nonsense has been shoved onto us WAY before its ready.

Thats kinda a last straw for me.

I was thinking about buying a new ship with my tax refund this week...

But now I'm thinking about investing it somewhere else...

CIG has to earn my support before I invest in giving it.
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: Stan on February 23, 2017, 11:23:19 AM
Ah yeah, those were simpler times. Back when the dreams were flowing uninterrupted.

Bookmark the next 3 months (https://forums.robertsspaceindustries.com/discussion/324520/bookmark-the-next-3-months) - March 2016 (Edited April 2016)

Quote
I'm going to stick my neck out here and say that the next 3 months leading up to July are going to be memorable in the development timeline of Star Citizen and the PU. Something we'll look back on and think 'yeah, that was when it started to realise it's potential'.

I believe we are going to start seeing S42 assets and development released into the baby pu over the next 3 months: shopping, FPS aboard the Starfarer, planetary landing (bit of a game changer that one), new locations, female characters, currency and more. I'm excited.

Check out 10 for the Erin, specifically at 16:08:

Edit: the latest dev report as of 10th April 2016:

Extracts from CIG dev announcements re shopping:

Development

The major focus during the month of March here in Austin has been Shopping!

By this I do not mean that we all went to the mall together to pick up the hottest fashion trends, but rather we focused on driving the features to completion that are required to get the shop environments functional for players. Lead Designer Rob Reininger has been driving various subfeatures like the Single-Item Transaction UI and flow and the shop environment item setup. Pete Mackay has been driving the pricing of all the various items that we will be selling in the shops.

This has required much coordination between our Design and Community teams in LA and our Design Director Todd Papy and Pete has handled it just swimmingly. We’re now implementing the established prices into DataForge where they will exist statically until we bring our formulaic solution online.

The items will be able to be purchased with a new currency we’ve established, internally called Alpha Currency. This currency exists for the sole purpose of testing out these prices and balancing the game, and will exist separately from UEC or REC. At any point we’ll be able to wipe Alpha Currency and start fresh if something goes awry, and this will help us nail down final pricing numbers before we go Live.

Along with the Shopping frontend comes the work being done to support the Shopping backend. The Server Team here in Austin has been setting up the ability to add/subtract Alpha Currency in game and handing it off to the UI and Design teams in the UK to use for the shopping interface and providing alpha currency rewards via completing missions.

This work is part of Persistence as a whole, which made significant progress this month. We finally integrated Persistence into our main development stream, which means we can’t go back to the way things were before and Persistence is here to stay.

Engineering

This month, it was all about shopping and figuring out the best way to give you a perfect shopping experience. This feature has many elements that required a cool collaboration between us and the other studios. Which, so far, has been a lot of fun.

We created a new AR-based shopping interface for clothes and personal weapons. Also a Catalog-based shopping system for vehicle components.

With the different types of clothes that you can buy, we had to create a tryout camera to enable the players to preview them on their character.

There was also work on a new shop inventory and layout randomizer.

He needs a dose of reality.
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: nightfire on February 24, 2017, 01:53:00 PM
This month, it was all about shopping and figuring out the best way to give you a perfect shopping experience.

 :lol:
And this is where Sandi's expertise will finally come to its fullest effect in the game development!


This feature has many elements that required a cool collaboration between us and the other studios. Which, so far, has been a lot of fun.

Yeah, shopping tours in Frankfurt and London while "travelling to Europe to oversee development at the studios" sure can be a blast.

Also a Catalog-based shopping system for vehicle components.

Our extensive experience with Porsche dealers will finally pay off for the backers.

With the different types of clothes that you can buy, we had to create a tryout camera to enable the players to preview them on their character.

Which we will also use at home, we have so many different types of clothes now.
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: Stan on February 24, 2017, 05:45:01 PM
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: dsmart on February 26, 2017, 07:42:20 AM
Man, checkout these Reddit threads.

https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/comments/5w2fyf/cig_has_gotten_away_with_things_way_too_easily/

Quote
Terrible Holiday streams that ask ppl to buy more ships and hyping SQ42 up and not show it to the end which is most likely CR being far too optimistic when they couldn't resolve issues with the demo. CR knew months prior about this but didn't bother to be honest at first so it wouldn't have a impact on sales and morale. Once everyone was burn out towards the end they finally let the news out. Its rinse and repeat with the sales onwards.
So are people continuous going to reward such behavior that seem like plain cockiness if you think about the fact that they knew months ago that they would not make a release. They clearly knew the community was going let it slide no matter what because that where all the money comes from particular the hardcore ones. They probably don;t care about anyone who hasn't backed the game as much because they aren't where most of the revenue comes in. The devoted hardcore fans who can dish out more money is their primary focus and that undeniable if you think about how the average gamer can't keep buying more ships. There not pandering to the the guy who can only afford one ship anymore. Because he won't have the patient to keep waiting.
People need to admit CR is one the very reason the media has been talking bad about SC at times. It like as long as backer keep on opening their wallet its not a huge problem so what they do isn't a big deal no matter if they miss it. Makes me think it some kind of game where "probably" and 'maybe" is something CR uses to get ppl hope up until the very end when he doesn;t meet the deadline. The same thing is going to happen this year if the same event and hints happen again
Makes me wonder are ppl more interesting in work in progress than something that is fully done. Hooray let rejoice for concept ship sales. People need to be concern with the rep of SC outside of this community. Do people not get tired of jokes made about SQ42 and trolls talking about which is far worse than anything I written here.

https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/comments/5w7tzj/yet_again_losing_shit_we_paid_for/de84wm3/

Quote
So, when they decided that the Gladiator would hold no cargo, it wasn't worth telling us until the ship was released to the hangar?
When CIG decided to strip the second seat out of the Khartu that it wasn't worth telling anyone until it was hangar ready.
Sorta like how they didn't bother telling us they wouldn't show us the S42 vertical slice until the very last minute.
This isn't accidents or incompetence, it is calculated decisions to maximize profits.
We want this game to be the BDSSE, actually now we want this game to just be the Best Damned Game Ever.
CIG needs money to do this, thats why I have over 6 grand in this game. That is why they will outright lie to us to bring in more money. It is simple good business practice.

https://www.reddit.com/r/gaming/comments/5kp7ke/star_citizen_eyes_realtime_reflections/dbrl60j/?context=3

Quote
They have to keep funding the game from pledgers, so they have to focus on stuff that wows consumers but that isn't actually the correct order to build a game.
This is (one of the reasons) why the game is late and will eventually end up costing a vast amount more than if they'd built the same product according to the proper process.
Imagine building a house by finishing one side of the facade to 'final' quality including windows and paint, before you'd even built another exterior wall. You'd have to keep it upright with scaffold and protect it from damage and wear while building the rest of the house, or after the viewing by investors, let it fall down or intentionally demolish it and build it again at the end.
This is directly analogous to what they are doing on SC. Source: 17 years in game development.
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: dsmart on February 26, 2017, 07:48:27 AM
Don't forget to vote! It's your civic duty!  :supaburn:

What do you think is the inevitable fate of Star Citizen? (https://strawpoll.com/9x5x21g)

Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: nightfire on February 26, 2017, 10:43:32 AM
Man, checkout these Reddit threads.

I can't believe that it's $144M and year 2017, yet they still toss the same worn-out rhetorical BS around. Such as
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: Darklegend1 on February 27, 2017, 12:08:40 AM
Man, checkout these Reddit threads.

I can't believe that it's $144M and year 2017, yet they still toss the same worn-out rhetorical BS around. Such as
  • "They don't know what they're doing, because it hasn't been done before"
  • "When you're working on something groundbreaking, delays happen"
  • "it's hard to make accurate projections when you're building the most complex & ambitious game ever."
  • "Chris overhypes certainly. But that's what he does."
  • "CR's games have never been made in a timely fashion. They have always been awesome though."
  • "Your typical large Scale AAA game takes 4-8 years of dev. CiG is building 2 games, has built an entire worldwide company and if they they ship SQ42 at EOY 2017 will have only taken 5 years, same as GTA V."
  • "Didn't you read the TOS and all the disclaimers CIG makes you read before they let you give them money?  I'm not sure why you're acting surprised or upset."
  • "If your criticisms are indistinguishable from Derek Smart posts, it's an indication you're doing something wrong."

Totally agree with you nightfire, I know its hard for some people to admit that they were wrong so they spun up new excuses but i cant fathom what kind of immense optimism these guys have.

I had enough of this bullshit after that horrendous december livestream, i knew cig were lying after citcon presentation but i seriously thought if they had any brain they will release some concrete milestones or info that they have achieved this year but all we got was promises and excuses.

The way i see it 3.0 was promised by december 2016 and 2.6 in august-september, and waht do we have now not even 2.6 in its entirety. They think backers and a pile of A-Holes and now i am beginning to believe they are very correct.

There incompetency grows each day. i know many will say they are making something never made before and i do agree. All i want from them is to say publicly they fucked up and tell us what the actual state is , they say they have enough money to make the game now so why are they still keeping us in the dark while more morons get milked everyday.

that schedule thing is the biggest joke in the history. who can complain about the game when even there schedules are being behind "schedule" . They told us the schedules they share are estimates only do they want us to believe they dont even have a estimate or track of what is being made what has to be made ??

Sure they keeep changing the schedule before also so they can share with us whatever they have and keep iterating on it as time passes by!!!

There is no chance of squadron 42 releasing in 2017 ..period. then also there page shows coming 2017 now. all it is now is just a milking scam. before it was 2016  :laugh: :laugh:. Dont put a date if you cant meet the goals. Just write coming soon but writing that will delay the milking so its unacceptable.

I dont even know what these whales will do in the game once and if this game ever releases. They already have all the ships and weapons , what will they grind.?? there wont be more than a couple of systems in beginning so no real exploration also. all they can do is troll the person who bought bare minimum package and is grinding.

also if i think optimistically 3.0 should come somewhere between june-july, so they have to waste time till april, they will drop 2.6.2 in april this will give them some time to breathe keeping blind backers happy that "yaay another timely patch delivered by cig" so they will have 2 more months after 2.6.2 that backer unrest begins to surface. but if they miss the deadline of june- july 2017 for 3.0 they will be hit hard and will be needing distractions so

whats next : 2.6.2.a and 2.6.2.b :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
 

 
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: dsmart on February 27, 2017, 05:25:23 AM
I can't believe that it's $144M and year 2017, yet they still toss the same worn-out rhetorical BS around. Such as
  • "They don't know what they're doing, because it hasn't been done before"
  • "When you're working on something groundbreaking, delays happen"
  • "it's hard to make accurate projections when you're building the most complex & ambitious game ever."
  • "Chris overhypes certainly. But that's what he does."
  • "CR's games have never been made in a timely fashion. They have always been awesome though."
  • "Your typical large Scale AAA game takes 4-8 years of dev. CiG is building 2 games, has built an entire worldwide company and if they they ship SQ42 at EOY 2017 will have only taken 5 years, same as GTA V."
  • "Didn't you read the TOS and all the disclaimers CIG makes you read before they let you give them money?  I'm not sure why you're acting surprised or upset."
  • "If your criticisms are indistinguishable from Derek Smart posts, it's an indication you're doing something wrong."

When I first wrote about Sunk Cost Fallacy and Cognitive Dissonance to describe some of these guys, there are those who just thought I was being mean, using hyperbole etc. But seriously, when you think about what is going on, you should easily see that no normal person would be giving them money at this point. I mean, look at the Hurricane JPEG sales. It's absolutely crazy to me that some people "believe" enough to keep giving them money; even though all the signs that this project has failed, are still there.

Some of us really do believe that there has to be some money laundering going on. Buy stuff with bad money, get a refund and get it out. Clean.

The thing is, I can't imagine what these people will think/feel once the next phase in the collapse comes. We're already in Mar 2017, and they've barely released 2.6.1 which is just as bad as any previous patch before it.
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: dsmart on February 27, 2017, 05:33:50 AM
that schedule thing is the biggest joke in the history. who can complain about the game when even there schedules are being behind "schedule" . They told us the schedules they share are estimates only do they want us to believe they dont even have a estimate or track of what is being made what has to be made ??

They do have an internal schedule. Thing is, if they share it, panic would ensue. It's something that sources talk about all the time. So what they do is cull the "near term"* items (http://"https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/comments/5w27pe/about_262_production_schedule/"), then make that public. Which is why they haven't yet put up the 2.6.2 schedule, let alone the 3.0 or even SQ42.

* and they only started doing this with 2.6.0 due to backlash from the CitizenCon "demo", 3.0 not being released etc. It was to be a false sense of security for the backers. Despite the fact that - as far back as 2013 - they were giving out dates and schedules, while missing all of them. That was back when croberts had promised to give monthly schedules. Then he didn't. Like how Star Marine showed up, unexpectedly after being canned, in order to show 2016 progress; the latest schedule fiasco is kinda like that.

Who can remember my predictions from back in Q4/16 (http://www.dereksmart.com/forum/index.php?topic=29.msg954#msg954) when I said that not only was 3.0 a pipe dream, but also they only came up with that schedule as a way to curry some quick backer confidence, when in fact nothing had changed?

LOL!! This was brilliant

https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/comments/5w27pe/about_262_production_schedule/de6ysfj/

Quote
"I see that we have evolved from getting the content/patches delayed at the last possible moment to getting the schedule with the stuff that will get delayed at the last possible moment delayed at the last possible moment
Luckily the sales are still on time.
"
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: dsmart on February 27, 2017, 11:06:27 AM
Yeah, that's not looking good, is it? "What do you think is the inevitable fate of Star Citizen? (https://strawpoll.com/9x5x21g)"

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C5sLsPKWgAAXCF6.jpg)

Oh, and they tried a "do over" poll (https://strawpoll.com/z7zrz9y) which we believe was because they didn't like the 1st poll results.

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C5sMJoiWcAAThze.jpg)
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: Stan on February 27, 2017, 11:34:44 AM
I can't believe that it's $144M and year 2017, yet they still toss the same worn-out rhetorical BS around. Such as
  • "They don't know what they're doing, because it hasn't been done before"
  • "When you're working on something groundbreaking, delays happen"
  • "it's hard to make accurate projections when you're building the most complex & ambitious game ever."
  • "Chris overhypes certainly. But that's what he does."
  • "CR's games have never been made in a timely fashion. They have always been awesome though."
  • "Your typical large Scale AAA game takes 4-8 years of dev. CiG is building 2 games, has built an entire worldwide company and if they they ship SQ42 at EOY 2017 will have only taken 5 years, same as GTA V."
  • "Didn't you read the TOS and all the disclaimers CIG makes you read before they let you give them money?  I'm not sure why you're acting surprised or upset."
  • "If your criticisms are indistinguishable from Derek Smart posts, it's an indication you're doing something wrong."

When I first wrote about Sunk Cost Fallacy and Cognitive Dissonance to describe some of these guys, there are those who just thought I was being mean, using hyperbole etc. But seriously, when you think about what is going on, you should easily see that no normal person would be giving them money at this point. I mean, look at the Hurricane JPEG sales. It's absolutely crazy to me that some people "believe" enough to keep giving them money; even though all the signs that this project has failed, are still there.

Some of us really do believe that there has to be some money laundering going on. Buy stuff with bad money, get a refund and get it out. Clean.

The thing is, I can't imagine what these people will think/feel once the next phase in the collapse comes. We're already in Mar 2017, and they've barely released 2.6.1 which is just as bad as any previous patch before it.

People want to be scammed.

Interesting article written on the back of the authors research.

https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2017/feb/11/internet-scams-dating-romance-money

"I got involved with a scammer to better understand why people fall for their stories – and discovered it’s as much about tricking yourself as being tricked"
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: dsmart on February 27, 2017, 01:23:44 PM
As the on-going debate (we know it's not accurate, doesn't take into account refunds, loans, investors etc. plus, from data analytics we've seen some evidence of it being padded) over the funding chart (https://robertsspaceindustries.com/funding-goals) rages on, one person over on SA made a very good point* that I hadn't even considered until now.

Previously, it was just as straightforward money laundering as buying Star Citizen JPEGs with dirty money; then either getting a refund or selling it on the Grey market (primarily over on /r/StarCitizen_Trades/ which is run by one of the mods who created a hate Sub-Reddit dedicated to me). Seriously, check this out (https://www.reddit.com/r/Starcitizen_trades/comments/5kf3is/storenbys_mall_third_edition_original_concepts/?st=izojtkoj&sh=ea9629a0). Does that look normal to you?

Anyway, considering that CIG recently started asking for ID (https://twitter.com/dsmart/status/833021922782937090) (you're a fool if you send ID via email to a company that's known to abuse user data (http://www.oneangrygamer.net/2016/06/star-citizens-derogatory-customer-labels-sees-customer-support-being-overhauled/4518/)) in order to do refunds, probably means that they're either aware of this and are trying to curb (the Grey market eats into their revenue obviously), or they are aware of it, and thus using the ID verification as a way to refuse refunds, thus not only keeping the money in CIG, but also screwing money launderers.

Then this alternate theory* from SA (https://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3800238&pagenumber=707#post469833995) came along. That's so diabolical in its construction that, this being CIG, it's totally a possibility.

Quote
How about this

CIG releases a new concept jpg for $250  , limited to 1000 or whatever number they make up

Within a few days / hours they show all the 1000 have been sold (but they haven't)

Mena while at CIG hq they've sold 900 to the staff , at 75% off.

Cig staff now head to the grey market , eBay , wherever, and sell their 900 ships to the general public (or more likely one of the big ship middle men) for 50% of the original msrp (or 25% more than what the cig employee paid)

Idiot shill or Internet spaceship collector buys it thinking wow 25% off I made out like a bandit !

Meanwhile cig claims the sale at full price , the employee pockets their 25% off the entire transaction, and the shill continues to praise the crobberts

===

The key point here is the brown sea is always filled with people saying Oh of that ship was only a little cheaper I'd buy 1. Heck I'd buy 5 (although that makes zero sense)

So by CIG cutting the price down via the multi marketing level scam. More people would buy them , just not via the normal channels

===

I mean , this guy (https://www.reddit.com/r/Starcitizen_trades/comments/5kf3is/storenbys_mall_third_edition_original_concepts/?st=izojtkoj&sh=ea9629a0) appears to be holding at least a hundred jpegs or more himself , assuming he makes actual sales and has to 'restock'

And I just made up the numbers obviously , but even if they did my scam tactic idea for 50% of the ships it would still help surge the funding charts

Instead of the ships sitting unsold in the jpeg warehouse next to lesnicks wing commander porn

Also, with 4 worldwide studios scattered among over a dozen worldwide corporations, this is what I predict will be the fate of CIG/RSI/F42 over in the UK (https://www.ft.com/content/5fe289c9-bf7d-3215-a0d3-851c8079420b) (archive (https://archive.is/tixLw)) when this shit-show collapses.
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: Stan on February 27, 2017, 08:28:50 PM
As the on-going debate (we know it's not accurate, doesn't take into account refunds, loans, investors etc. plus, from data analytics we've seen some evidence of it being padded) over the funding chart (https://robertsspaceindustries.com/funding-goals) rages on, one person over on SA made a very good point* that I hadn't even considered until now.

Previously, it was just as straightforward money laundering as buying Star Citizen JPEGs with dirty money; then either getting a refund or selling it on the Grey market (primarily over on /r/StarCitizen_Trades/ which is run by one of the mods who created a hate Sub-Reddit dedicated to me). Seriously, check this out (https://www.reddit.com/r/Starcitizen_trades/comments/5kf3is/storenbys_mall_third_edition_original_concepts/?st=izojtkoj&sh=ea9629a0). Does that look normal to you?

Anyway, considering that CIG recently started asking for ID (https://twitter.com/dsmart/status/833021922782937090) (you're a fool if you send ID via email to a company that's known to abuse user data (http://www.oneangrygamer.net/2016/06/star-citizens-derogatory-customer-labels-sees-customer-support-being-overhauled/4518/)) in order to do refunds, probably means that they're either aware of this and are trying to curb (the Grey market eats into their revenue obviously), or they are aware of it, and thus using the ID verification as a way to refuse refunds, thus not only keeping the money in CIG, but also screwing money launderers.

Then this alternate theory* from SA (https://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3800238&pagenumber=707#post469833995) came along. That's so diabolical in its construction that, this being CIG, it's totally a possibility.

Quote
How about this

CIG releases a new concept jpg for $250  , limited to 1000 or whatever number they make up

Within a few days / hours they show all the 1000 have been sold (but they haven't)

Mena while at CIG hq they've sold 900 to the staff , at 75% off.

Cig staff now head to the grey market , eBay , wherever, and sell their 900 ships to the general public (or more likely one of the big ship middle men) for 50% of the original msrp (or 25% more than what the cig employee paid)

Idiot shill or Internet spaceship collector buys it thinking wow 25% off I made out like a bandit !

Meanwhile cig claims the sale at full price , the employee pockets their 25% off the entire transaction, and the shill continues to praise the crobberts

===

The key point here is the brown sea is always filled with people saying Oh of that ship was only a little cheaper I'd buy 1. Heck I'd buy 5 (although that makes zero sense)

So by CIG cutting the price down via the multi marketing level scam. More people would buy them , just not via the normal channels

===

I mean , this guy (https://www.reddit.com/r/Starcitizen_trades/comments/5kf3is/storenbys_mall_third_edition_original_concepts/?st=izojtkoj&sh=ea9629a0) appears to be holding at least a hundred jpegs or more himself , assuming he makes actual sales and has to 'restock'

And I just made up the numbers obviously , but even if they did my scam tactic idea for 50% of the ships it would still help surge the funding charts

Instead of the ships sitting unsold in the jpeg warehouse next to lesnicks wing commander porn

Also, with 4 worldwide studios scattered among over a dozen worldwide corporations, this is what I predict will be the fate of CIG/RSI/F42 over in the UK (https://www.ft.com/content/5fe289c9-bf7d-3215-a0d3-851c8079420b) (archive (https://archive.is/tixLw)) when this shit-show collapses.

I would doubt the Grey market scam as outlined above.

It would be very risky because it would only take a whistleblower or two and future sales would be in jeopardy.

There is also the RSI store credit factor - you can get store credit or sc trades  for 75% of the $ worth and that was the case before the warbonds were invented.

A huge % of the general gaming public are scared shitless by game account / item trading. 
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: dsmart on February 28, 2017, 01:01:33 PM
...and we have the second confirmation (https://clips.twitch.tv/InventiveFineSnakeFeelsBadMan) of the existence of a 2.7 patch; even as CIG continues to dangle 3.0 in front of backers like a carrot stick. Of course none of this means anything seeing as they can brand any build to be 3.0 and call it a day. They did the same thing with the 2.5.x path in Dec, which miraculously became 2.6.0 though, aside from Star Marine, didn't contain most of what was previously promised, and which are now playing out in 2.6.1 (current) and upcoming 2.6.2 builds.

The first confirmation was by Todd Pappy (https://youtu.be/HXl4zsswHcE?t=2145) and I covered that in this post (http://dereksmart.com/forums/topic/star-citizen-musings/#post-5222) back on Feb 14.

As I wrote back then, at the end of the day, they can brand any build as 3.0 (http://imgur.com/a/y9NrY), and call it a day. All with complete disregard for promises made. And they can do this with impunity because even as they continue to do so, and whales, in Sunk Cost Fallacy, keep propping it up, they get the impression that they have a blank check. And with that, they have zero incentive to finish the games as promised, let alone deliver on any promises made.
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: nightfire on February 28, 2017, 04:47:24 PM
...and we have the second confirmation (https://clips.twitch.tv/InventiveFineSnakeFeelsBadMan) of the existence of a 2.7 patch; even as CIG continues to dangle 3.0 in front of backers like a carrot stick.

The Hivemind is already transforming 2.7 into 3.0 (resp. 3.0 into 2.7) (http://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/comments/5wp35m/27_patch_mentioned_again_in_todays_livestream/).

According to this new strain of extraterrestial logic, 2.7 is the "build number", while 3.0 is the "marketing term"… and (surprise!) always has been!  :doh: :shittypop:

Example:

Quote
Honestly wouldn't be surprised if some devs are working on the original 2.7 build, and just didn't care enough to change the build number.
It's quite easy to say "two seven" by accident when you're constantly working on a build that is called "2.7" on the dev side of things, even if it will become public build 3.0.
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: dsmart on February 28, 2017, 05:19:54 PM
...and we have the second confirmation (https://clips.twitch.tv/InventiveFineSnakeFeelsBadMan) of the existence of a 2.7 patch; even as CIG continues to dangle 3.0 in front of backers like a carrot stick.

The Hivemind is already transforming 2.7 into 3.0 (resp. 3.0 into 2.7) (http://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/comments/5wp35m/27_patch_mentioned_again_in_todays_livestream/).

According to this new strain of extraterrestial logic, 2.7 is the "build number", while 3.0 is the "marketing term"… and (surprise!) always has been!  :doh: :shittypop:

Example:

Quote
Honestly wouldn't be surprised if some devs are working on the original 2.7 build, and just didn't care enough to change the build number.
It's quite easy to say "two seven" by accident when you're constantly working on a build that is called "2.7" on the dev side of things, even if it will become public build 3.0.

We were just chatting about this on my Discord channel. It's amazing the mental gymnastics these guys go through.
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: dsmart on March 05, 2017, 11:17:41 AM
...meanwhile, over there. (https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/comments/5xlkzm/just_so_im_clear_any_sort_of_criticism_of_cig_or/)

Quote
A lot of people in this sub like to think that this community isn't toxic but it is. Especially this sub. Whenever someone posts something critical of CIG its downvoted to hell and the author is usually derided with claims of being a troll or DS account. It's ridiculous.
I already know this will get downvoted, but I don't give a fuck. It needs to be said. This community (reddit, RSI forums, and Facebook) is slowly becoming more and more toxic. All because some people can't separate their emotions from the game enough to have an actual conversation.
But what do I know? I'm just a goon DS troll account who wants to see CIG fail, despite having backed them for $500+ dollars.
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: dsmart on March 05, 2017, 04:49:28 PM
People are broken. Threads like this (https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/comments/5xoof6/reposted_with_permission_by_errordetected_an/) are precisely why Shitizens have such a bad rap

His original post (https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/comments/5worsd/subscribers_town_hall_february_2017_relay_summary/debwych/?sh=faaa5142&st=IZX463Q0) got tons of upvotes.
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: dsmart on March 08, 2017, 04:52:07 PM
This went precisely as expected...

Manage your initial 3.0 expectations, a mental health wellness recommendation. (https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/comments/5y8ldh/manage_your_initial_30_expectations_a_mental/)

Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: Narrenbart on March 09, 2017, 01:16:21 AM
This went precisely as expected...

Manage your initial 3.0 expectations, a mental health wellness recommendation. (https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/comments/5y8ldh/manage_your_initial_30_expectations_a_mental/)
This happens when you fail to manage expectations of your community for the sole reason to hype sales ... for over 5 years ... it physically hurts me to read this stuff.
They are living in their own dream world and expect a whole mass effect like game in a single patch from a company that does not seem to have any idea what to put in the next sub patch.

Star Citizen - This won't end well.

But I guess I just don't understand game Star Citizen development.
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: concern on March 09, 2017, 01:52:45 PM
Apparently character customization is what is needed to make it feel like a real game. I'm obviously ill-informed, because I would have thought game play was the actual key.
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: dsmart on March 09, 2017, 05:42:04 PM
Apparently character customization is what is needed to make it feel like a real game. I'm obviously ill-informed, because I would have thought game play was the actual key.

That's nuthin'. You saw today's AtV? FF to 08:28


Quote
We've also made headway in debugging animation, skeletons, and our animation pipeline in general.  With the help of code and design we also started researching ways to impliment the hundreds of animations we've developed over the years
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: concern on March 09, 2017, 06:15:56 PM
Quote
We've also made headway in debugging animation, skeletons, and our animation pipeline in general.  With the help of code and design we also started researching ways to impliment the hundreds of animations we've developed over the years

It's almost as if they were making an animated movie, rather than a game.
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: dsmart on March 09, 2017, 06:37:50 PM
Yup.

https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/comments/5yj55a/what_has_all_of_this_magic_from_frankfurt_really/

Oh boy, that one is going to be all kinds of hilarious by morning.

Who recalls back in 2015 after I wrote my first blog, then revealed that they had staffed F42-GER with poached CryTek devs; then Shitizens were up in arms about the magical Germans who were going to be saving their game "because they built CryEngine"?

It's now 2017.

Ah, good times.
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: Scruffpuff on March 09, 2017, 07:12:04 PM
We've also made headway in debugging animation, skeletons, and our animation pipeline in general.  With the help of code and design we also started researching ways to impliment the hundreds of animations we've developed over the years

started researching ways to impliment the hundreds of animations we've developed over the years

Holy shit.  They developed hundreds of animations FIRST, and now, in 2017, they're going to start researching ways to implement them.

Jesus H. Christ.
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: Narrenbart on March 09, 2017, 07:23:26 PM
We've also made headway in debugging animation, skeletons, and our animation pipeline in general.  With the help of code and design we also started researching ways to impliment the hundreds of animations we've developed over the years

started researching ways to impliment the hundreds of animations we've developed over the years

Holy shit.  They developed hundreds of animations FIRST, and now, in 2017, they're going to start researching ways to implement them.

Jesus H. Christ.
Quote CIG Bridge Selling Department (CIGBSD)
We gathered a few hundred tons of metal in the last years now we are researching a way to build the bridge we already sold you.
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: vim on March 10, 2017, 08:42:25 AM
Been reading on this forum for a while to follow the SC saga. I have not put any money on the game or played it but i did enjoy Wing Commander: Privateer and Freelancer and had some hope for SC early on. Now I'm a bit less optimistic :).

I just wanted to say that i saw the movie above where they mention the research of the animations. I could not stop laughing :D. Eating Sim 2026 :).
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: dsmart on March 12, 2017, 10:34:19 AM
This thread is amazing. Lets talk about 3.0 Status (https://forums.robertsspaceindustries.com/discussion/374420/lets-talk-about-3-0-status)

Meanwhile over on p6 (https://forums.robertsspaceindustries.com/discussion/374420/lets-talk-about-3-0-status/p6)

(https://i.imgur.com/lHLP6cK.png)
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: somedude on March 12, 2017, 01:37:47 PM
This year is gonna be very interesting.. i foresee a hell of a lot of popcorn drama on the forums/reddit  :swoon:
As a refundend ex-backer i will enjoy this (altough i'd rather have the game, but this is free entertainment after all)
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: dsmart on March 13, 2017, 11:44:28 AM
So BoredGamer (http://twitter.com/BoredGamer/) who said over a MONTH ago that he was going to visit F42 and post his thoughts, has posted a video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YQ8XBIX8qis) of his visit.

The summary?

(https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/166260954412089344/290914133271117834/wow-its-nuthin.jpg)

...meanwhile, over there (https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/comments/5z6as3/boredgamer_went_to_foundry_42_uk_heres_what_hes/). (some apparently watched a different video)
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: dsmart on March 13, 2017, 04:20:18 PM
So Star Citizen is back up on /r/Games. It's...well, go look: Star Citizen's persistent universe draws closer with the imminent Multiplayer Mega Map (https://www.reddit.com/r/Games/comments/5z4btn/star_citizens_persistent_universe_draws_closer/)

Most upvoted...

https://www.reddit.com/r/Games/comments/5z4btn/star_citizens_persistent_universe_draws_closer/devjydl/

Quote
The best way to wait for this game is to forget about it entirely and be surprised when something shows up on
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: dsmart on March 15, 2017, 05:31:25 PM
...meanwhile, back at the ranch, the Amazon takeover rumor is beginning to sink in. (https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/comments/5zmyge/i_think_amazon_may_be_taking_over/)
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: StupidCitizen on March 16, 2017, 09:26:20 AM
...meanwhile, back at the ranch, the Amazon takeover rumor is beginning to sink in. (https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/comments/5zmyge/i_think_amazon_may_be_taking_over/)

Wow, i have never seen so many fanatics at one place, holy damn  :vince:
Calling all kinds of slurs, responding with anger and hostility over a concern? And they're supposed to be adults ranged 25-70? What?

Glad i got out, if anything is going to be the downfall of this game, the hardcore community is going to be partly responsible for it.
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: dsmart on March 16, 2017, 03:03:33 PM
...meanwhile, back at the ranch, the Amazon takeover rumor is beginning to sink in. (https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/comments/5zmyge/i_think_amazon_may_be_taking_over/)

Wow, i have never seen so many fanatics at one place, holy damn  :vince:
Calling all kinds of slurs, responding with anger and hostility over a concern? And they're supposed to be adults ranged 25-70? What?

Glad i got out, if anything is going to be the downfall of this game, the hardcore community is going to be partly responsible for it.

Oh this is nuthin'. Just wait and see what happens in the coming weeks after 2.6.2 is out.

This is what some of us have said all along; some members of that community are the worst thing that could have ever happened to the project.
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: Narrenbart on March 16, 2017, 03:48:15 PM
...meanwhile, back at the ranch, the Amazon takeover rumor is beginning to sink in. (https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/comments/5zmyge/i_think_amazon_may_be_taking_over/)

Wow, i have never seen so many fanatics at one place, holy damn  :vince:
Calling all kinds of slurs, responding with anger and hostility over a concern? And they're supposed to be adults ranged 25-70? What?

Glad i got out, if anything is going to be the downfall of this game, the hardcore community is going to be partly responsible for it.

Oh this is nuthin'. Just wait and see what happens in the coming weeks after 2.6.2 is out.

This is what some of us have said all along; some members of that community are the worst thing that could have ever happened to the project.
This happens when you...
- Not only don't manage community expectations; fire up and engage wild guesses about possible gameplay for years.
- Sell those dreams in form of overpriced DLC and Skins (This makes the Mecs from MWO a different housenumber)
Therefore your whole Community is based on sunk cost fallacy on the real money and emotionally side - They'll bite you to death if you dare to touch their dreams with reality.

CIG created them, they are bloodthirsty dogs prepared to kill everyone to protect the dream - unfortunately CIG will be the one who destroys the bubble (be it with golf swing mechanics).
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: Motto on March 17, 2017, 11:53:43 AM
I'm seriously starting to worry that some people actually might commit suicide when this all collapes. It's unbelievable how far from reality some seem to be. It seems that it would be for the best if this collapses sooner rather then later.
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: helimoth on March 17, 2017, 12:53:24 PM
...meanwhile, back at the ranch, the Amazon takeover rumor is beginning to sink in. (https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/comments/5zmyge/i_think_amazon_may_be_taking_over/)

Wow, i have never seen so many fanatics at one place, holy damn  :vince:
Calling all kinds of slurs, responding with anger and hostility over a concern? And they're supposed to be adults ranged 25-70? What?

Glad i got out, if anything is going to be the downfall of this game, the hardcore community is going to be partly responsible for it.

Oh this is nuthin'. Just wait and see what happens in the coming weeks after 2.6.2 is out.

This is what some of us have said all along; some members of that community are the worst thing that could have ever happened to the project.

The best thing that could happen to chris roberts though
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: dsmart on March 17, 2017, 02:46:27 PM
I'm seriously starting to worry that some people actually might commit suicide when this all collapes. It's unbelievable how far from reality some seem to be. It seems that it would be for the best if this collapses sooner rather then later.

It's a concern that several people have in fact expressed, given some of the behavioral patterns (in terms of post actions and such) of some of these people. It's uncanny.
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: Phraccy on March 20, 2017, 01:35:29 AM
How accurate and legit is this TheAgent leak btw?

Just asking as I no longer know whom or what to believe .... I got out over a year ago (3.5k$ refund, yeah I know, I was THAT crazy) but keep following the game.
While I would absolutely love if th egame would come out as it is being pitched right now, I do know it is rather unlikely.

Obviously Derek is going to cover himself and check the leaks validity (sp?), but still wondering.

Anyway, keep it up Derek! Your efforts actually helped me to get a different point of view on things and question a lot of things in terms of SC, so thank you for that!
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: dsmart on March 20, 2017, 04:21:59 AM
How accurate and legit is this TheAgent leak btw?

Just asking as I no longer know whom or what to believe .... I got out over a year ago (3.5k$ refund, yeah I know, I was THAT crazy) but keep following the game.
While I would absolutely love if th egame would come out as it is being pitched right now, I do know it is rather unlikely.

Obviously Derek is going to cover himself and check the leaks validity (sp?), but still wondering.

Anyway, keep it up Derek! Your efforts actually helped me to get a different point of view on things and question a lot of things in terms of SC, so thank you for that!

As it goes with everything related to leaks and rumors, it's hit or miss. I don't know who TheAgent is, but he has hit some of the spots since he first appeared on the scene. I tend to rely on my own sources because so far they've had a very high success rate of passing along info that pans out. I am actually sitting on an huge bombshell atm, but have refrained from divulging it until I get more independent corroboration. My guess is that it will probably play out before I get that. Note: croberts is in Europe.
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: Phraccy on March 20, 2017, 05:06:15 AM

As it goes with everything related to leaks and rumors, it's hit or miss. I don't know who TheAgent is, but he has hit some of the spots since he first appeared on the scene. I tend to rely on my own sources because so far they've had a very high success rate of passing along info that pans out. I am actually sitting on an huge bombshell atm, but have refrained from divulging it until I get more independent corroboration. My guess is that it will probably play out before I get that. Note: croberts is in Europe.

Thanks for the reply! Yeah, guessed something along those lines. Anyway, I really hope TheAgent is wrong in his latest leak, but we will have to wait and see.
Not sure what you are referring to in terms of CR's visit to Europe, but again, we will have to wait and see.
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: dsmart on March 20, 2017, 07:32:05 AM
Meanwhile over at SA, MinorInconvenience had this to say

Quote
I probably shouldn't post this, but I feel I must, if only because actual backers like MoMA read this shit. (Internet smartguy bullshit incoming, sorry--feel free to disregard if you think I'm just an idiot 16-year-old in his mother's basement.):

I have a professional interest in fucked-up and dying companies. I am a corporate bankruptcy attorney with a masters in business, with over ten years experience in the industry, and with post-graduate experience in the tech industry. I have seen many companies before, during, and after their descent into insolvency and am admitted in all of the major jurisdictions handling corporate bankruptcies in the US. And based upon my (far too many) years of experience, I'll bet you $10,000 (USD) cash that unless Croberts & Co. have a secret lender who is overjoyed at throwing good money after bad, Star Citizen as contemplated by most of its backers is doomed. They wasted too much money early in the development cycle to continue their burn rate beyond another year or so.

But CIG/RSI is not dead or insolvent yet (it appears). Based upon the public reports of granted refunds, and the lack of public reports of layoffs, it is not too late to get your money back! But it will probably be too late very soon. You will know this once the refunds are granted slower or refused and employees start to be laid off ("stealth" layoffs for "performance" reasons are still popular among most shitbag HR types). Unlike the principled folks at other bankrupt Kickstarter-funded companies that I will not name here, Star Citizen backers' money is at risk and apparently not protected by an escrow account. You backers need to get out right now! Please. I hate to see the little guys get fucked by the corporations, the fat-cat directors and officers, and their secured lenders (i.e., banks). Get out while you still can. I beg you.

If only one backer gets his or her money back because of these stupid ramblings, this post will not have been in vain.


PS: This post does not constitute legal advice and I'm not your fucking attorney.

Regards

And AP had this to point out to some dude (MoMa) who is apparently still convinced that ships will cost more when the game is 'released'. lol

Quote
Quote
When SC is released, it's said that we'll have the capability of trading ships for UEC, etc. I fully expect people to make out-of-game sale arrangements that involve the transfer of real cash instead of in-game UEC.
Chris Roberts has said dozens of things that he later changed his mind on. The problem with people not holding him to account for this is that there's no downside to him saying whatever suits him best at the time.

So when raising money on kickstarter and giving interviews in 2012, he only needs 500k, then he needs 2 million to prove to investors, then he needs 14 million to do without investors. It's only going to take 2 years as any longer than that and it would get stale. Then later once we reach 23 million we'll be at full funding, honest guv.

During kickstarter, buy this alien vanduul ship for $300, your only chance to get it, $300, bargain, buy this Idris Corvette your only chance to get it $1000, both come with LTI which we won't sell again. What's LTI do? Who the fuck knows I'll make up some bullshit, but it's great and you don't want to miss out.

Later when they want to raise money, LTI is staying for a year, you can gift packages freely between accounts do whatever you want, you only have a year though you don't want to miss out. Also buy this Idris Corvette, yeah we said we won't sell it again but this one is slightly different, it's an Idris P, doesn't come with the big railgun and it costs more, $1250. Good price really and we said we won't sell the Idris M before, not the P which we'd never mentioned. Sure you can get the big gun in game and make your Idris P into Idris M, buy now.

We've going to sell a new Vanduul ship, it's not the $300 one we promised not to sell again, it's a $350 one with more guns.

The Dog fighting module will be out in about November 2013, later it's the end of the year. We'll have a big sale in Nov 2013, the end of LTI sale which we'll never sell again, buy now you don't want to miss out.

2014, we're going to sell LTI again, people missed out and we need the money really.

There's dozens more examples. How can you not see that Chris Roberts seems to have an irresistible urge to say things that later turn out not to be true when changing his mind results in raising more money?

We're not going to have subscriptions, oh wait, you get loaner limited edition ships and special video shows to answer your questions if you subscribe, you also get automatically picked to enter the special tester group, it's special you don't want to miss out.

We won't sell ships after release, oh wait they'll sell game packages that include larger ships but we're not selling ships.

Give more you gullible idiots and no you can't have a refund you gifted items around, who told you to do that you muppet? We owe you nothing, you should thank us for letting you experience all our great video content. 829 videos, sure the game is shit but look at how great our offices are.

Give more.
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: Motto on March 20, 2017, 12:21:51 PM
So the latest news is that the much anticipated Jesus Patch 3.0 is on the verge of being released to the general public (any day now!), but it will also be the final delivery of the game that once was known as Star Citizen. This because Chris decided to change to name to Mass Effect: Andromeda  :D
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: Scruffpuff on March 20, 2017, 02:43:09 PM
Considering how many releases we've seen since 2.0 (we're looking at what now, 2.6.2?) without any progress whatsoever that actually evolves the functionality and stability of the PU, it's amazing that anyone even cares whether or not there's a patch that CIG will arbitrarily declare to be "3.0."

By this time, I don't think it's too much of a stretch to say that the release of the 3.0 patch is just as dangerous for CIG as the release of the final game.  Too much has been promised, too many things have been pushed back into this 3.0 pipe dream, for it to be anything less than game changing.

Obviously, if something called "3.0" comes out, it will be indistinguishable from what's already on the PU, including the completely broken and unfit engine.  So over the next few weeks, as "2.6.2" gets dribbled out, expect to hear more and more features being walked back to prepare for the underwhelming reality of 3.0.

Already we've seen the first steps:  "cargo" will just be a number, "piracy" will just be the same NPC ships we have now, "bounty hunting" will just be a line of text telling you to kill a pirate, etc.  Basically the game will be just as broken as now, but there will be a new line of text somewhere in the UI.

The company line is that they'll "layer in the fidelity over time."  The reality is that they can't make this game; not with this engine, not with this team, and especially not with this leader.  Now it's all about keeping up appearances and buying time.

Unfortunately, there's nothing to buy time for.  Chris Roberts has piledriven another great idea into the dirt, and CIG does not exist in a vacuum.  By the time they shit out version "6.0", we'll be playing games made by real companies that offer everything CIG promised, and they'll be celebrating a new AI advancement that allows NPC pilots to work their landing gear.
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: dsmart on March 21, 2017, 04:28:51 AM
So the latest news is that the much anticipated Jesus Patch 3.0 is on the verge of being released to the general public (any day now!), but it will also be the final delivery of the game that once was known as Star Citizen. This because Chris decided to change to name to Mass Effect: Andromeda  :D

LOL!!! I can't wait to see how croberts Magnum Opus is received when SQ42 gets unveiled. It's going to be all kinds of lovely.  :laugh:
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: dsmart on March 21, 2017, 04:46:31 AM
Considering how many releases we've seen since 2.0 (we're looking at what now, 2.6.2?) without any progress whatsoever that actually evolves the functionality and stability of the PU, it's amazing that anyone even cares whether or not there's a patch that CIG will arbitrarily declare to be "3.0."

By this time, I don't think it's too much of a stretch to say that the release of the 3.0 patch is just as dangerous for CIG as the release of the final game.  Too much has been promised, too many things have been pushed back into this 3.0 pipe dream, for it to be anything less than game changing.

Obviously, if something called "3.0" comes out, it will be indistinguishable from what's already on the PU, including the completely broken and unfit engine.  So over the next few weeks, as "2.6.2" gets dribbled out, expect to hear more and more features being walked back to prepare for the underwhelming reality of 3.0.

Already we've seen the first steps:  "cargo" will just be a number, "piracy" will just be the same NPC ships we have now, "bounty hunting" will just be a line of text telling you to kill a pirate, etc.  Basically the game will be just as broken as now, but there will be a new line of text somewhere in the UI.

The company line is that they'll "layer in the fidelity over time."  The reality is that they can't make this game; not with this engine, not with this team, and especially not with this leader.  Now it's all about keeping up appearances and buying time.

Unfortunately, there's nothing to buy time for.  Chris Roberts has piledriven another great idea into the dirt, and CIG does not exist in a vacuum.  By the time they shit out version "6.0", we'll be playing games made by real companies that offer everything CIG promised, and they'll be celebrating a new AI advancement that allows NPC pilots to work their landing gear.

I totally called it. It's in my July 2015 blog!!   :lesnick:

It's all a missed opportunity. The sad reality is that they got to make money from it, live lavish lifestyles etc. All on backer money. That's the real injustice here; and that's why "unjust enrichment" is a valid legal cause of action.

I already said that 3.0 was never going to live up to the expectations - no matter what they put in it. The closest they are likely to get to progress is probably the one thing they have skilled people for: art and modeling. So maybe a new station and such. They pulled the same stunt when they shoved Star Marine - which nobody is playing now - into 2.6.0 in order to show "progress"

I cannot wait for planets.  :bahgawd:

We had

"3.0 was coming on|before Dec 19 2016"

Then 2.6.0 dropped instead on Jan 3rd, 2017 (https://robertsspaceindustries.com/comm-link//15653-Star-Citizen-Alpha-260)

Then 2.6.1 dropped Feb 18, 2017 (https://robertsspaceindustries.com/comm-link//15743-Star-Citizen-Alpha-261)

Now 2.6.2 is coming Mar 23rd, 2017 (https://robertsspaceindustries.com/schedule-report).

This is what he promised for 3.0 back in Q4/16. Compare to the schedule report (https://robertsspaceindustries.com/schedule-report) list.

(http://i.imgur.com/54axyWT.jpg)
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: Phraccy on March 21, 2017, 07:26:43 AM

Now 2.6.2 is coming Mar 23rd, 2017 (https://robertsspaceindustries.com/schedule-report).


You wish :( Isn't even in Evocati yet afaik...at least not as of yesterday. Should have been in last week....
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: Motto on March 22, 2017, 01:59:09 PM
Oh boy, this (https://www.businessinsider.nl/mass-effect-andromeda-review-2017-3/?international=true&r=US) is a fun read. It looks like somebody thought that SC actually is the best game ever and tried to incorporate some of the main features. Like:

 Without getting too mired in jargon, you should be aware that “Andromeda” has some major technical problems. As you can see above, one of my squadmates decided she wanted to stand on some boxes for no reason – that’s far from the most egregious technical issue.

In my time with “Andromeda,” I’ve encountered some truly crazy stuff:

    – The game slowing down to the point of freezing.

    – Stuff in the game’s world “popping in” and disappearing from view (like, say, the ground).

    – Enemies materializing out of nowhere (and no, they weren’t just using an invisibility cloak, which some enemies use in “Andromeda”).

And much more! This is stuff I encountered both before and after I installed the update issued by the game’s developer, Bioware. It’s not clear if the game is getting another update

If you read this review "the right way" it looks like Cris was right all along  :dance:

Edit after Narrenbart's comment: Don't read it as a review of ME:A, but read it as if someone tried to do a copy of SC in it's current state. The similarities are amazing then. That's what I meant by "if you read it the right way". 
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: Narrenbart on March 22, 2017, 03:13:10 PM
Oh boy, this (https://www.businessinsider.nl/mass-effect-andromeda-review-2017-3/?international=true&r=US) is a fun read. It looks like somebody thought that SC actually is the best game ever and tried to incorporate some of the main features. Like:

 Without getting too mired in jargon, you should be aware that “Andromeda” has some major technical problems. As you can see above, one of my squadmates decided she wanted to stand on some boxes for no reason – that’s far from the most egregious technical issue.

In my time with “Andromeda,” I’ve encountered some truly crazy stuff:

    – The game slowing down to the point of freezing.

    – Stuff in the game’s world “popping in” and disappearing from view (like, say, the ground).

    – Enemies materializing out of nowhere (and no, they weren’t just using an invisibility cloak, which some enemies use in “Andromeda”).

And much more! This is stuff I encountered both before and after I installed the update issued by the game’s developer, Bioware. It’s not clear if the game is getting another update

If you read this review "the right way" it looks like Cris was right all along  :dance:
Hu? This guy (Ben Gilbert) has nothing to do with Star Citizen and never wrote an article about it. He seems to be a console guy that is just reviewing ME:A.
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: Motto on March 22, 2017, 03:21:17 PM
Sorry, my bad in explaining the humor. Maybe it wasn't that obvious to others as I thought it was (and English isn't my native language).

Don't read it as a review of ME:A, but read it as if someone tried to do a copy of SC in it's current state. The similarities are amazing then. That's what I meant by "if you read it the right way". 
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: dsmart on March 22, 2017, 07:53:03 PM
Sorry, my bad in explaining the humor. Maybe it wasn't that obvious to others as I thought it was (and English isn't my native language).

Don't read it as a review of ME:A, but read it as if someone tried to do a copy of SC in it's current state. The similarities are amazing then. That's what I meant by "if you read it the right way".

Yeah, I understood what you meant. Which made the whole thing even more hilarious.  :smuggo:
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: Narrenbart on March 23, 2017, 05:53:18 PM
The Agent (https://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3800238&userid=0&perpage=40&pagenumber=832#post470635538)
Quote
What we are rolling out now is a complete rewrite of core and branched systems. It has nothing to do with Lumberyard integration. Early 2016 the decision was made to scrap almost our entire codebase and start anew. Whilst this means years of potential new coding, our animation and art teams have continued to refine and refactor. What they produce now is purely and simply momentous. No other studio has the capacity for such amazing work. There has been thousands of custom animations and facial expressions that rival the top Hollywood computer graphics companies.

Then what is heading back to redesign? I used refactor the correct way, before I get poo poo for that. Everything you see currently is gone. 2.6 no longer exists. The beta we are getting out this year, and I mean this year, is a total rebuild -- not refactor, har -- of code. Flight models, first person feel, networking, persistence, items; all of what's in 2.6 is completely gone.

The foundations and creative tools for new content are in place are nearly complete. They are decades ahead of what other companies have, even AAA studios. Chris bet big on big ideas and now our entire team is starting to see that investment pay off.

I'm not afraid to say 2020 or later is release. I'm unafraid because our backers are unafraid; every single one of them continue to walk-the-walk and not just talk-the-talk. Chris made the right call to wipe out what was previously in place. Things were too fractured; now everything is under one house, one rule, one idea. No more outsourcing. No more wondering what company added or subtracted.

Beta is a turning point for the entire project. I won't comment on Amazon. The air here is different. The feel of the company is different. Progress, rapid progress, is being made now, more than ever before. Designers are putting in systems and testing them within the same week. If I can sum up in one word what we all feel: joy. To not only be a part of this project but to truly go where no one has gone before.

You don't post positives, not from what I've seen. Maybe this will be different.

It would be hilarious if this renders to be true and not only sarcasm by The Agent.
Basically it means millions of man hours down the drain.

Dear Backers, we have started over, please donate again cause well we wasted 100Mil Dollars to learn it the hard way.
But good news everyone, the facial animations look pretty good and we have some good toolsets ... after 6 years ...
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: Scruffpuff on March 24, 2017, 07:19:32 AM
It's just TheAgent taking the piss.  Indications:

- 2 separate claims directly referencing Chris's "vision" (wiping out old code, betting on "big ideas" - the kinds of decisions actual developers make every day)

- The claim that the studio is "decades ahead" of other studios - a literal impossibility without a time machine, since every developer in the world has been butting up against current hardware limitations since gaming began

- "No other studio has the capacity for such amazing work" - provably false, since CIG has bled all but the bottom-of-the-barrel talent - nearly every other studio is superior to CIG in nearly every way

- "animations and facial expressions that rival the top Hollywood computer graphics companies." - This one sealed the deal for me that this was a fake post.  "Hollywood Computer Graphics Companies" is not what any game developer would call CGI workshops - ever.  "Hollywood" has nothing to do with CGI.  They use it, sure - but they aren't the best, nor do they represent a high water mark for quality.  This is a callout to the common belief that Chris Roberts is simply trying to get back into Hollywood.
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: AlsoSmart on March 24, 2017, 07:42:17 AM
The Agent (https://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3800238&userid=0&perpage=40&pagenumber=832#post470635538)
Quote
What we are rolling out now is a complete rewrite of core and branched systems. It has nothing to do with Lumberyard integration. Early 2016 the decision was made to scrap almost our entire codebase and start anew. Whilst this means years of potential new coding, our animation and art teams have continued to refine and refactor. What they produce now is purely and simply momentous. No other studio has the capacity for such amazing work. There has been thousands of custom animations and facial expressions that rival the top Hollywood computer graphics companies.

Then what is heading back to redesign? I used refactor the correct way, before I get poo poo for that. Everything you see currently is gone. 2.6 no longer exists. The beta we are getting out this year, and I mean this year, is a total rebuild -- not refactor, har -- of code. Flight models, first person feel, networking, persistence, items; all of what's in 2.6 is completely gone.

The foundations and creative tools for new content are in place are nearly complete. They are decades ahead of what other companies have, even AAA studios. Chris bet big on big ideas and now our entire team is starting to see that investment pay off.

I'm not afraid to say 2020 or later is release. I'm unafraid because our backers are unafraid; every single one of them continue to walk-the-walk and not just talk-the-talk. Chris made the right call to wipe out what was previously in place. Things were too fractured; now everything is under one house, one rule, one idea. No more outsourcing. No more wondering what company added or subtracted.

Beta is a turning point for the entire project. I won't comment on Amazon. The air here is different. The feel of the company is different. Progress, rapid progress, is being made now, more than ever before. Designers are putting in systems and testing them within the same week. If I can sum up in one word what we all feel: joy. To not only be a part of this project but to truly go where no one has gone before.

You don't post positives, not from what I've seen. Maybe this will be different.

If this is just even partly true then  :lol:

But the best part from a psychologycal/rhetorical point is IMO:
"I'm not afraid to say 2020 or later is release. I'm unafraid because our backers are unafraid; every single one of them continue to walk-the-walk and not just talk-the-talk. "



Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: Narrenbart on March 24, 2017, 08:25:47 AM
It's just TheAgent taking the piss. [...]
most likely this ^ :)
But if true we've got a 2nd DNF
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: dsmart on March 24, 2017, 11:15:04 AM
It's just TheAgent taking the piss.  Indications:

Yeah, most definitely the case. I mentioned that on Discord last night. It's hilarious.  :lol:
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: dsmart on March 27, 2017, 03:47:08 PM
Alpha 2.3 was released exactly one year ago today. (https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/comments/61ptoo/alpha_23_was_released_exactly_one_year_ago_today/)

Meanwhile, 2.6.2 just went to Evocati.

Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: dsmart on April 02, 2017, 08:48:14 AM
https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/comments/62tbtw/hype_and_reality_check_27_patch/dfp63xn/

So say we all...

Quote
I've gone from: kickstart backer -> avid fan -> optimistic -> pessimistic -> I now shit on the game whenever I can and tell people not to buy it, IF it happens...sure pick up a small package..but don't touch it until then.
You probably think I'm being harsh.. But when I backed this game I didn't even know I was going to have a 2nd kid, my 2nd kid is now turning 4 in a few weeks... and he'll probably be 8 or 9 before the game is in a "released" state.. That is unacceptable IMO, even for a "ground breaking blah blah blah"
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: dsmart on April 03, 2017, 11:23:36 AM
LOL!! this is great (https://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3800238&pagenumber=879#post470989702)

Quote
Unpacking why SC is doomed from a technical perspective is conveniently (for chris roberts) very tough because it's extremely hard to get people's attentions long enough to elaborate on why making games is hard and you can't just ideas-guy development teams into doing the impossible. let's try to break Star Citizen down by starting from the abstract:

game engines are, at their core, real time operating systems (RTOS)

you have disparate systems that need to be scheduled, informed of things like user input or network activity, share state + somehow send messages to each other (or, more dangerously, directly reference each other), be maintained to respect logical contracts etc. there's not a lot of shortcuts you can take between these systems without introducing serious consequences to your runtime stability or overall code maintainability, you need to design it Right™ and early and not let it slip when other people start helping you maintain/grow the engine.

the above outlines the overall concepts an "engine developer" has to maintain and grapple with. this is explicitly distinct from a "game developer" which I'll outline next.

engine development is all very complicated and often way more brittle than you expect. How many "complete" racing games have you seen on the Source engine compared to FPS games? The answer is obvious and influenced strongly by the products the original engine developers were aiming for. Some engines, like Unity, have done a great job at not being married to any one framework of gameplay but that ultimately results in a larger conceptual gap that a "game developer" might need to fill if they aren't an experienced "engine" developer or aren't good at building their own operating frameworks for the kind of game they want to make. In something like Unity there's no built in concept of guns or inventory or reticles or chat systems or existing game-like behavior. unity bridges this gap a bit with an asset store but then you are banging differently shaped puzzle pieces made by strangers together that might not fit nicely

The following are questions you need to answer and grasp the implications of when making any game and picking an engine that will suit your development style: first person? racing? strategy? turn based? multiplayer? single player? local multiplayer? physics a part of the gameplay or just aesthetic? persistent centralized accounts (ie: an MMO or something like it)? ad hoc p2p player servers? the list goes on, but you need answers to every question you can think of that is a core component of your game.

The answers to these questions will influence what kinds of problems you're signing yourself up to solve. If I know I'm making a 20 player arena based FPS shooter, I might as well go with UDK because out of the box it has templates and a lot of community discussion surrounding making FPS games and it has a history of being for that, the engine will present low friction for this problem set. If I try to make an FPS game in game maker or from scratch in C++, I'm going to be miserable and have to basically reinvent every single wheel.

Every system your game needs, that your engine may or may not make easy on you, needs to interact well with its dependent systems & providers at run-time and also be maintainable and ideally compartmentalized, you don't want to realize half way through development that upgrading your engine to the latest upstream (which comes with features you've been begging for) will break literally everything because you were coding around undocumented potentially-is-actually-a-bug behavior in the engine because you didn't really grok the intent outlined in the documentation and naively code-bashed your way into a solution. developers in all software need to develop a 6th sense for what "smells bad" when trying to make a framework do something it wasn't meant for, leading you to overarchitect some things in some cases, but also make extreme but convenient and well-weighed short-cuts in others. this specific skill along with the ability to set expectations reasonably (  ) is at the crux of being a good software developer.

Realistically it is impossible to design perfect game systems in a vacuum that you can plug and play together with any sort of configuration, there's always a compromise or some sort of edge case you're introducing with other systems and you end up having to write a bunch of special edge case marshalling to do things like: translate between one spacial system to another, or have one set of physics objects follow one set of rules while another set of physics objects follows another. and the way you implement these systems will concrete you into behavior that will exclude other potentialities for designs in the game.

Now let's talk about Crytek and Cryengine. Cryengine specifically set out to solve one very specific set of problems in game development: rendering huge amounts of space & geography efficiently and having such large space also work sanely in multiplayer. This made it naturally suited for cool homebrew games like Mechwarrior: Living Legends. The engine already had existing frameworks for things such as controlling vehicles, rendering day/night cycles, complex shader techniques for mapping textures onto bump maps in a way that doesn't stretch, conveniences in the editor for editing large amounts of geometry and placing & rendering roads (entire white papers exist for rendering/editing roads sanely in bump-map engines lol).

That said, it's clear why at first glance Cryengine seemed like a good fit for SC, you have huge swathes of space as a game problem you need to solve, lo and behold Cryengine offers a partial solution at first glance. Cryengine also featured some zero-g segments at times, which I'm sure made Chris Robert's eyes pop out of his fucking sockets on one of his major coke fueled gaming benders in a sad poorly furnished mcmansion somewhere.

It's not insanely difficult, if you have any game programming experience, to hop into an engine like Cryengine and start prototyping some things. Let's create a blank level, let's make the skybox be a nice starry sky texture, let's set gravity to 0, let's subclass the vehicle class and drop in one of our models. The engine is very low friction for this hello world smoke test. So you start flying around in your shitty 3d mesh and are feeling like a programming/game development god, zooming around thinking "Wow this is gonna be EASY", then you fly to far down on the Y axis and start drowning. "what the fuck" you whisper as you squint. It's too late though, your boss, Chris Roberts, saw this early smoke test of assets and quickly started drafting up earnest estimates on how long OTHER systems will take, as if the demo you threw together is actually complete (when it's not). If you dont know how to hire devs you might put a senior dev in place who also doesn't grok how much actual work is left to be done and enforces your boss' stupid promises based on what isn't real game development. Guns are now pointed at you to fix the "small" issue or you'll be holding up the schedule (that no one consulted you about). so you work a weekend and dive into wtf happens when Y axis < CRY_WATER_LINE_HEIGHT. You find an instance in the base player controller logic and fix it, thinking you're done, but -- fuck it turns out the physics subsystem also uses that same CRY_WATER_LINE_HEIGHT constant to do some optimizations, so you start grepping the code for that code instance and try flipping it off, except you don't realize there are some extra subsystems hidden somewhere that don't reference that constant like they should also do their own weird rendering tricks or optimizations when Y approaches that magic value.

there's a phrase in software development and especially games: 90% of the time is spent on the last 10% of polish. the last mile problem is super fucking real in gamedev, seemingly tiny things in the grand scope of what you're delivering can make or break your game experience for players, and it's always those "tiny" things that are the results of weird edge cases from literally hundreds of subsystems interacting with eachother through the engine.

now, take the water example and apply it to basically everything. most likely every single system in cryengine has some kind of limit to what it was built to do originally and there are always unexpected results when you push engines into territory they werent developed for or tested for. now if you consider how Chris is pushing people to ship shitty demos and move on instead of developing a strong foundation for the rest of the game: you start to imagine how one could half ass a system for an effect in demo and how "ok but it wont work outside of this or with any of the other things we talked about" might fall on deaf ears to a demonstrable cant-actually-delegate-or-listen-to-reason dingus like CRoberts.

now i want to introduce the final nail in the coffin. I could write like an essay on the basic MMO problem space but I wont, i'll keep it simple: MMOs are one of the hardest possible problems to tackle in a game development context from a resource management perspective. the amount of resource expertise (developers, architects, planning) and continued cost of servers and CPU/network time are as big as it gets in game development, and not only that but your game needs to be architected incredibly precisely to fit into the featureset your MMO imagination describes. you really can spare no unnecessary complexity when attempting an MMO, your scope needs to be VERY specific for your first release (  )

Even on a basic employee headcount level, Star Citizen doesn't employ nearly the number of experienced developers required for a project of this size, not only that but we all have plenty of evidence as to CRobert's awful management styles given how many rewrites and "refactors" occur for even the existing unfinished systems. there are clear, glaring signs of bad software development planning and inexperienced game developers rushing a product (while senior ones seem to keep leaving , weird!! ).

absolutely none of this is conducive to shipping the PU as shitizens imagine. they will never see their game. making games is really complicated, making multiplayer games is even MORE complicated, making MASSIVELY multiplayer games is THE most resource intensive & complicated from a project management perspective.
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: Phraccy on April 04, 2017, 12:51:58 AM
LOL!! this is great (https://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3800238&pagenumber=879#post470989702)

Quote
Unpacking why SC is doomed from a technical perspective is conveniently (for chris roberts) very tough because it's extremely hard to get people's attentions long enough to elaborate on why making games is hard and you can't just ideas-guy development teams into doing the impossible. let's try to break Star Citizen down by starting from the abstract:

game engines are, at their core, real time operating systems (RTOS)

you have disparate systems that need to be scheduled, informed of things like user input or network activity, share state + somehow send messages to each other (or, more dangerously, directly reference each other), be maintained to respect logical contracts etc. there's not a lot of shortcuts you can take between these systems without introducing serious consequences to your runtime stability or overall code maintainability, you need to design it Right™ and early and not let it slip when other people start helping you maintain/grow the engine.

the above outlines the overall concepts an "engine developer" has to maintain and grapple with. this is explicitly distinct from a "game developer" which I'll outline next.

engine development is all very complicated and often way more brittle than you expect. How many "complete" racing games have you seen on the Source engine compared to FPS games? The answer is obvious and influenced strongly by the products the original engine developers were aiming for. Some engines, like Unity, have done a great job at not being married to any one framework of gameplay but that ultimately results in a larger conceptual gap that a "game developer" might need to fill if they aren't an experienced "engine" developer or aren't good at building their own operating frameworks for the kind of game they want to make. In something like Unity there's no built in concept of guns or inventory or reticles or chat systems or existing game-like behavior. unity bridges this gap a bit with an asset store but then you are banging differently shaped puzzle pieces made by strangers together that might not fit nicely

The following are questions you need to answer and grasp the implications of when making any game and picking an engine that will suit your development style: first person? racing? strategy? turn based? multiplayer? single player? local multiplayer? physics a part of the gameplay or just aesthetic? persistent centralized accounts (ie: an MMO or something like it)? ad hoc p2p player servers? the list goes on, but you need answers to every question you can think of that is a core component of your game.

The answers to these questions will influence what kinds of problems you're signing yourself up to solve. If I know I'm making a 20 player arena based FPS shooter, I might as well go with UDK because out of the box it has templates and a lot of community discussion surrounding making FPS games and it has a history of being for that, the engine will present low friction for this problem set. If I try to make an FPS game in game maker or from scratch in C++, I'm going to be miserable and have to basically reinvent every single wheel.

Every system your game needs, that your engine may or may not make easy on you, needs to interact well with its dependent systems & providers at run-time and also be maintainable and ideally compartmentalized, you don't want to realize half way through development that upgrading your engine to the latest upstream (which comes with features you've been begging for) will break literally everything because you were coding around undocumented potentially-is-actually-a-bug behavior in the engine because you didn't really grok the intent outlined in the documentation and naively code-bashed your way into a solution. developers in all software need to develop a 6th sense for what "smells bad" when trying to make a framework do something it wasn't meant for, leading you to overarchitect some things in some cases, but also make extreme but convenient and well-weighed short-cuts in others. this specific skill along with the ability to set expectations reasonably (  ) is at the crux of being a good software developer.

Realistically it is impossible to design perfect game systems in a vacuum that you can plug and play together with any sort of configuration, there's always a compromise or some sort of edge case you're introducing with other systems and you end up having to write a bunch of special edge case marshalling to do things like: translate between one spacial system to another, or have one set of physics objects follow one set of rules while another set of physics objects follows another. and the way you implement these systems will concrete you into behavior that will exclude other potentialities for designs in the game.

Now let's talk about Crytek and Cryengine. Cryengine specifically set out to solve one very specific set of problems in game development: rendering huge amounts of space & geography efficiently and having such large space also work sanely in multiplayer. This made it naturally suited for cool homebrew games like Mechwarrior: Living Legends. The engine already had existing frameworks for things such as controlling vehicles, rendering day/night cycles, complex shader techniques for mapping textures onto bump maps in a way that doesn't stretch, conveniences in the editor for editing large amounts of geometry and placing & rendering roads (entire white papers exist for rendering/editing roads sanely in bump-map engines lol).

That said, it's clear why at first glance Cryengine seemed like a good fit for SC, you have huge swathes of space as a game problem you need to solve, lo and behold Cryengine offers a partial solution at first glance. Cryengine also featured some zero-g segments at times, which I'm sure made Chris Robert's eyes pop out of his fucking sockets on one of his major coke fueled gaming benders in a sad poorly furnished mcmansion somewhere.

It's not insanely difficult, if you have any game programming experience, to hop into an engine like Cryengine and start prototyping some things. Let's create a blank level, let's make the skybox be a nice starry sky texture, let's set gravity to 0, let's subclass the vehicle class and drop in one of our models. The engine is very low friction for this hello world smoke test. So you start flying around in your shitty 3d mesh and are feeling like a programming/game development god, zooming around thinking "Wow this is gonna be EASY", then you fly to far down on the Y axis and start drowning. "what the fuck" you whisper as you squint. It's too late though, your boss, Chris Roberts, saw this early smoke test of assets and quickly started drafting up earnest estimates on how long OTHER systems will take, as if the demo you threw together is actually complete (when it's not). If you dont know how to hire devs you might put a senior dev in place who also doesn't grok how much actual work is left to be done and enforces your boss' stupid promises based on what isn't real game development. Guns are now pointed at you to fix the "small" issue or you'll be holding up the schedule (that no one consulted you about). so you work a weekend and dive into wtf happens when Y axis < CRY_WATER_LINE_HEIGHT. You find an instance in the base player controller logic and fix it, thinking you're done, but -- fuck it turns out the physics subsystem also uses that same CRY_WATER_LINE_HEIGHT constant to do some optimizations, so you start grepping the code for that code instance and try flipping it off, except you don't realize there are some extra subsystems hidden somewhere that don't reference that constant like they should also do their own weird rendering tricks or optimizations when Y approaches that magic value.

there's a phrase in software development and especially games: 90% of the time is spent on the last 10% of polish. the last mile problem is super fucking real in gamedev, seemingly tiny things in the grand scope of what you're delivering can make or break your game experience for players, and it's always those "tiny" things that are the results of weird edge cases from literally hundreds of subsystems interacting with eachother through the engine.

now, take the water example and apply it to basically everything. most likely every single system in cryengine has some kind of limit to what it was built to do originally and there are always unexpected results when you push engines into territory they werent developed for or tested for. now if you consider how Chris is pushing people to ship shitty demos and move on instead of developing a strong foundation for the rest of the game: you start to imagine how one could half ass a system for an effect in demo and how "ok but it wont work outside of this or with any of the other things we talked about" might fall on deaf ears to a demonstrable cant-actually-delegate-or-listen-to-reason dingus like CRoberts.

now i want to introduce the final nail in the coffin. I could write like an essay on the basic MMO problem space but I wont, i'll keep it simple: MMOs are one of the hardest possible problems to tackle in a game development context from a resource management perspective. the amount of resource expertise (developers, architects, planning) and continued cost of servers and CPU/network time are as big as it gets in game development, and not only that but your game needs to be architected incredibly precisely to fit into the featureset your MMO imagination describes. you really can spare no unnecessary complexity when attempting an MMO, your scope needs to be VERY specific for your first release (  )

Even on a basic employee headcount level, Star Citizen doesn't employ nearly the number of experienced developers required for a project of this size, not only that but we all have plenty of evidence as to CRobert's awful management styles given how many rewrites and "refactors" occur for even the existing unfinished systems. there are clear, glaring signs of bad software development planning and inexperienced game developers rushing a product (while senior ones seem to keep leaving , weird!! ).

absolutely none of this is conducive to shipping the PU as shitizens imagine. they will never see their game. making games is really complicated, making multiplayer games is even MORE complicated, making MASSIVELY multiplayer games is THE most resource intensive & complicated from a project management perspective.

Darn, even if I am no longer an avid member of the SC acid community and my faith bubble burst a long time ago, this write up just burst the last bubble of hope, small as it may have been, that SC might actually see the light of day at some point.

Damn good write up. Good bye SC!
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: Ghostmaker on April 04, 2017, 06:03:13 AM
LOL!! this is great (https://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3800238&pagenumber=879#post470989702)

Quote
(extensive discussion of engines and coding)

The term 'engine' is something of a misnomer, isn't it? It's more like... you have the VERY basic framework for a car. You have an engine, steering system, wheels, and maybe a transmission.

Everything else, from brakes to lights to the sound system and the car body, is on you.

Software complexity and interactions also factor into this. Even well-written code can have unexpected interactions when it's meshed to something else (this is what makes beta testers and QA employees cry a lot). To continue our car analogy, it's as if putting headlights in suddenly means your transmission becomes reversed.

And then you square and cube all these problems when you move to MMOs, since you have multiple players interacting in often unusual ways.

You know what I'm weirdly reminded of? The 'auteur' era in Hollywood. It seems like we're going through the exact same thing here.
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: dsmart on April 04, 2017, 08:57:41 AM
$145+ million + 6 years

(http://i.imgur.com/v2o91fq.gif)
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: dsmart on April 05, 2017, 10:42:19 AM
For those who don't know where to start in my Tweets today, there are 13. Start here (https://twitter.com/dsmart/status/849621482108063746)
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: dsmart on April 05, 2017, 05:01:09 PM
Star Citizen streamer, BadNewsBaron (https://twitter.com/thebadnewsbaron) on Star Citizen being his career (https://www.twitch.tv/videos/133666256?t=02h15m07s).

Gee, it's almost as if... (https://twitter.com/dsmart/status/849624963300696064)
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: Phraccy on April 06, 2017, 01:59:43 AM
Is there a list of senior Devs that have left CIG over the years? I presume most left quietly
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: dsmart on April 06, 2017, 05:15:33 AM
Is there a list of senior Devs that have left CIG over the years? I presume most left quietly

Yeah. But we stopped making them public awhile back, due to backlash from Shitizens.
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: dsmart on April 06, 2017, 05:31:21 AM
And so to the surprise of nobody, they released a 2.6.3 (http://www.dereksmart.com/forum/index.php?topic=29.msg1341#msg1341) (which should've been 2.6.2D) patch, mere days after rushing out the 2.6.2C because they had a new ship sale at the same time.

It's hilarious to me that now, Erin is in LA to finalize the 3.0 schedule (https://www.twitch.tv/videos/133666256?t=01h48m11s). You know, the 3.0 that was supposedly coming out on|before Dec 19th, 2016

Remember back when I said (1 (http://dereksmart.com/forums/topic/sc-scoop/#post-4493),2 (http://dereksmart.com/forums/topic/star-citizen-musings/#post-5222)) it was all bollocks? It's almost as if "Derek Smart was right" (again)

Besides, Chris already sent me the 3.0 schedule; so I have no clue what Erin is finalizing at this point. Aside from the fact that, well, this 3.0 schedule (https://robertsspaceindustries.com/schedule-report) which they posted back in Dec 2016 is now confirmed to be bullshit.

(https://imgur.com/qrXPvwS.jpg)
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: Narrenbart on April 06, 2017, 05:39:11 AM
It's hilarious to me that Erin is in LA to finalize the 3.0 schedule (https://www.twitch.tv/videos/133666256?t=01h48m11s). You know, the 3.0 that was supposedly coming out on|before Dec 19th, 2016

Remember back when I said it was all bollocks?
He also confirmed custom player housing, orbital mechanics and atmospheric damage - no feature creep at all ... from Erin Roberts that is ...
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: dsmart on April 06, 2017, 05:42:12 AM
He also confirmed custom player housing, orbital mechanics and atmospheric damage - no feature creep at all ... from Erin Roberts that is ...

Yeah, I saw that. It's amazing.
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: Phraccy on April 06, 2017, 06:12:49 AM
Is there a list of senior Devs that have left CIG over the years? I presume most left quietly

Yeah. But we stopped making them public awhile back, due to backlash from Shitizens.

Understandably, wasn't sure there was one but if its documented then thats all I need to know.
Gonna lean back now, eat popcorn and enjoy the shitshow that is Star Shitizen
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: dsmart on April 06, 2017, 07:48:59 AM
Ho Lee Cow!!  :yikes:

(https://i.imgur.com/WqVce8K.png)

https://www.twitch.tv/videos/133666256?t=01h49m10s

Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: dsmart on April 06, 2017, 01:10:51 PM

I watched all 37 mins, in under 7 mins

(https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/166260954412089344/299622663297695746/wow-its-nuthin.jpg)
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: dsmart on April 06, 2017, 01:53:57 PM
So instead of writing an export/import tool, they are going to be wiping (https://youtu.be/RQLRvB9LAlo?t=607) the old forum history and moving everyone to this shit ----> Spectrum (https://robertsspaceindustries.com/spectrum/community/SC)

Just like back when they said they would archive the concern forum, but instead wiped it clean.

They're basically looking to wipe years of lies and dissent.

UPDATE: The tribe is up in arms (https://forums.robertsspaceindustries.com/discussion/376793/forums-get-closed-in-7-days)

(https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/166260954412089344/301116707475292160/Capture.PNG)

UPDATE: Yet another thread (https://forums.robertsspaceindustries.com/discussion/377037/the-real-reason-spectrum-forum-is-being-implemented) has popped up

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C9PAfm2XgAEXYDA.jpg:large)

Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: dsmart on April 06, 2017, 04:35:32 PM
Sandi appears in latest propaganda vid (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RQLRvB9LAlo&feature=youtu.be&t=17m3s) they made to sell ships, and backers are shredding her (https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/comments/63v366/star_citizen_around_the_verse_trouble_at_drake/dfx954b/).

Oh how the mighty have fallen, and times have changed. maybe she'll quit again (http://www.dereksmart.com/2016/08/woman-in-gaming-so-what/). scamming nerds will do that.
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: Phraccy on April 07, 2017, 01:02:29 AM
That AtV was cringe worthy ... even more than the others.

I LOL'd hard when they said .. "We are looking at ways to populate the vistas of the planets" .. so thats not finished either??? And then a little later when this one guy said that basically every outpost they modeled so far is still in greyboxing....huh??
 :argh: :getout: :rip:
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: dsmart on April 07, 2017, 10:00:30 AM
That AtV was cringe worthy ... even more than the others.

I LOL'd hard when they said .. "We are looking at ways to populate the vistas of the planets" .. so thats not finished either??? And then a little later when this one guy said that basically every outpost they modeled so far is still in greyboxing....huh??
 :argh: :getout: :rip:

Stop spreading FUD.
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: Ghostmaker on April 07, 2017, 01:45:38 PM
Everyone's reaction, I think.
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: dsmart on April 13, 2017, 11:10:33 AM
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C9T86YZWsAAKd3q.jpg)

Except from "Letter from the Chairman - July 20, 2015 (https://robertsspaceindustries.com/comm-link/transmission/14839-Letter-From-The-Chairman)"

Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: Darklegend1 on April 15, 2017, 12:20:34 AM
The cat is out of the bag ... Production schedule for   :lol: >>3.0.0 << :lol: is out!!!! and boy it is a sore to the eye. 
June end is the goal and we will definately see 3.0.1 to 3.0.3 till the end of the year...

also now from stanton system entire planet side they have lowered scope to 3 moons.

Rip 3.2-4.0 which were supposed to debut this year. I think this is the final nail in the coffin. :laugh:
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: dsmart on April 15, 2017, 06:03:26 AM
STAR CITIZEN 3.0 SCHEDULE

You can find the fully updated write-up over here (http://dereksmart.com/forums/topic/star-citizen-musings/#post-5238).

Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: dsmart on April 15, 2017, 06:46:17 AM
Here's an example of how off this schedule is.

(https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/166260954412089344/302800985439338496/fixed_schedule.png)

(https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/166260954412089344/302801301845180426/fixed_schedule.png)
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: dsmart on April 15, 2017, 07:30:13 AM
Someone on SA has the best summary of this.

Quote
Ahahaha, this is a complete goddamn abomination and I love it. No project manager would ever sign off on this [sad thing]. What does a horizontal row mean? I mean in one row you've got weapons, "item 2.0", in-game chat use, and ship to ship refuel system. So a row can't possibly represent a single team or a series of deliverables that have to be done in sequence. It kind of looks like they just told everyone "In order to put out a minimum viable product, please list all of the work you'd have to have finished" and then crammed all of that end-to-end on a "Chart" with no regard for actual timelines or whether or not any piece of it was dependent on any other. Not only is it poorly designed and visually confusing, with bars apparently scattered randomly up and down the chart but it assumes massively parallel work flows that just aren't [ehrm…] possible. Some highlights:

1) "Network/Backend" has as many as eight simultaneous priorities in May alone. And it's not small stuff! "Server Migration" and "Network Bind/Unbind" and "New Message Queue" and "Physics Serialization" are all going out at the same time. Well! I'm sure your database won't be a right [mess] after you do all of those simultaneously through different people in the span of a couple of weeks.

2) "Fist Combat" is on a different track from "Throwable Weapons" which is apparently happening in parallel with "Knife Melee." "Takedowns (Front, Side, Rear)" are happening simultaneous with "Knockdown/Knockback." So that's at least 5 separate takes on how players are going to do physical damage to each other, all in the space of a [bleep] month, all scattered willy-nilly around the chart. No reason to put those back to back or maybe even combine them into one cohesive system! Nope!

3) It sure is a good thing that basically everything is going to be done by May! I was a little worried because we hadn't seen one bit of planetary tools, or solar system tools, or object container: load and unload, but it turns out they've just been working on them all at once, this whole time, for five years, and they'll all be finished in the next month! What a nice and satisfying unit of time- just far enough out to be a little vague, but close enough to feel like real progress is happening. It's definitely not a massively telling visual representation of your own project managers lying to you about when will get done. It's just that literally everything they've ever worked on is about four weeks from completion, right now. Whew!

4) They promised us a ship pipeline and boy are they set to [really] deliver! Look at that, as many as 12 simultaneous ship projects at once! They're finishing an average of four a month, every month, for the next 8 months! Half of these ships are marked as finished before things like Ship To Ship Refuel or Cargo System or Player Manned Turrets are done! How [on Earth] are you going to deliver rovers years before you have your planets?

5) Also, on ships: I'm really enjoying how individual variants are assigned different tracks with randomized completion lengths. See how many times you can find the words "Cutlass" and "Freelancer" on that chart, ships that have been in the game for 3+ years. It's weird, I don't see the Javelin that they just put out a 30 minute video about on there at all! Or the Idris! Or the Bengal carrier! In fact it looks like it's mostly
variants of existing small craft from here to 2018.

6) Also also on ships: glad to know that they're done selling ships forever, since apparently they have not made any time for new ship concepts or development on this chart.

7) I'm loving the [inordinate] time they assign to some of this stuff. Tell me more about how "Game Persistence" is apparently a two week project but your "Omnisky Laser Cannon" art or whatever [bleep] is going to take six [bleep] months of work?!?

8) "Inventory System UI" apparently starts a full month before, and takes twice as long as, "Inventory System Gamecode." Okay!

9) "In-Game Chat To Use Spectrum" apparently starts months before, and takes longer than, "Spectrum Integration In Game." Sure am glad this schedule passed a rigorous review process!

Yes, this is definitely a fully realized diagram and not the last-minute throwing together of about 5 overwhelmingly untruthful department reports from completely buried project leads. Given the last 5 years of delivering 1 to 2 minor changes per month, I am completely unsurprised that they found yet another way to promise that literally everything is right around the [bleepetybleep] corner. I look forward to the celebratory ship sale.
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Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: dsmart on April 15, 2017, 08:21:23 AM
So not only is the delta patcher missing from the schedule, but so is mining.

Have you seen Lando's response (http://"https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/comments/65hamg/beyond_30_2017_schedule/dgac1p9/")? Basically there's stuff missing from the schedule. Stuff they're supposed to be working on. But somehow it's not in a schedule that goes all the way to 2018. Which lends more credence to the notion that this schedule is the standard BS.

Also...

https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/comments/65h9vk/30_schedule_is_up/dgaf17m/

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C9dokYVXgAoXFLZ.jpg)
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: dsmart on April 15, 2017, 09:29:51 AM
Over at the new Spectrum "3.0 schedule finally reveals the lies of 2016 (http://"https://robertsspaceindustries.com/spectrum/community/SC/forum/3/thread/3-0-schedule-finally-reveals-the-lies-of-2016")"

(http://imgur.com/zbvJ0V1.png)

UPDATE: They deleted the thread. But someone posted a PDF (https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B_GOSqs6Iq2MOFFiRTZGaktlSXM) of the deleted thread
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: dsmart on April 15, 2017, 09:57:31 AM
https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/comments/65h9vk/30_schedule_is_up/dgacf2w/

(http://imgur.com/wfBphaW.png)
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: dsmart on April 15, 2017, 11:19:41 AM
So they deleted that thread (https://robertsspaceindustries.com/spectrum/community/SC/forum/3/thread/concern-subforum).

Welcome to Spectrum

Remember when I said it was curious they were releasing 3.0 schedule the SAME time as they were closing the old forums? Yeah, me too.

With old forums now in archive (can't post to it), using Spectrum means they can do crap like this easily. No trace. No history. Just gone.

(http://i.imgur.com/vIQHmHx.jpg)
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: dsmart on April 15, 2017, 11:53:17 AM
Oh man, this 3.0 schedule is the grift that keeps on grifting

A Problem with the CIG Production Schedule Report (https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/comments/65j91i/a_problem_with_the_cig_production_schedule_report/)
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: dsmart on April 15, 2017, 05:24:14 PM
LOL!! in the latest patch, you can add your ship's name to the hull. So of course someone (a Goon no doubt) made this.

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C9flxCCWsAAP4rh.jpg)
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: dsmart on April 16, 2017, 07:54:10 AM
To show you how utterly ridiculous the 3.0 schedule is, whereby they are promising a MASSIVE list of stuff for release END OF JUNE 2017, someone spliced it all together (https://i.imgur.com/PCvrcYb.jpg) in a nice graphic.

If that doesn't show just much BS that is, then I don't even know what to say at this point. Good thing is that even some of the hardcore backers are taking notice that we're way past the ridiculous point now. Completely.

Then there's this: http://schedule.starcitizen.guide/
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: StanTheMan on April 16, 2017, 04:02:37 PM
And there are supposedly professional Project Managers defending Roberts in that Reddit.

Confirmation bias ....what a powerful thing eh !

Reminds me of this discussion with James Randi where he discusses a long time friends inability to see the truth of a matter he was an expert in himself.  The memory of it chokes him up as he wan't able to help his friend before he died.

41 mins 20 seconds in.


Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: dsmart on April 16, 2017, 04:04:33 PM
And there are supposedly professional Project Managers defending Roberts in that Reddit.

Those clowns are all blatant liars. They all seem to have convenience professions when it's time to argue a point.
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: dsmart on April 16, 2017, 04:10:45 PM
Citizens on Reddit are playing time games again.

The Mitanni interviewed Chris Roberts (https://www.themittani.com/features/exclusive-interview-star-citizens-chris-roberts) on 10/19/2012. He CLEARLY said they were 1yr into the project then. So 2017 is year 6. So, 4 yrs late (delivery date was 11/2014 (https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/cig/star-citizen/description)). This 3.0 schedule puts it in 2018 (year 7) with barely 25% of what was promised, and not even 1 of 100 systems built by then.

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C9kcJo8XYAEzexH.jpg)
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: StanTheMan on April 17, 2017, 04:45:08 AM
These Shitizens are proponents of "Alternative Facts", that bizarre phenomenon that seems to have gotten a grip of so many previously sane people.

It doesn't matter if the evidence is there in front of them in black and white they will deny it if it doesn't support their dreams.
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: Ghostmaker on April 17, 2017, 06:19:26 AM
These Shitizens are proponents of "Alternative Facts", that bizarre phenomenon that seems to have gotten a grip of so many previously sane people.

It doesn't matter if the evidence is there in front of them in black and white they will deny it if it doesn't support their dreams.

Dunning-Kruger. Cognitive dissonance. Forest for the trees. Doesn't matter. Who are you gonna believe, Chris Roberts or your lying eyes?  :toot:

Dr. Smart, a while back you posted a chart showing several AAA titles compared to SC, specifically showing how long it took them to go from alpha, to beta, to release. I think you might want to trot that out again.

I still worry that there will be fallout from SC collapsing, hitting crowdfunding in general. While I don't crowdfund a lot, I'd hate to see it crippled under stupid regulation thanks to CR's mendacity.
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: dsmart on April 17, 2017, 06:50:38 AM
It didn't take long before the "Derek Smart is that you?" posts showed up. Even as I was writing my tome (https://arstechnica.com/gaming/2016/11/star-citizen-production-schedule-release/?comments=1&post=33169893)

Oh, you have to read this post (http://"https://arstechnica.com/civis/viewtopic.php?p=33146733#p33146733") from Ars Technica about an interview they just did with Chris, Erin, Tony

Quote
Hey guys! Ended up getting about two uninterrupted hours with Chris Roberts, his brother Erin, and studio lead Tony Zurovec. Will be turning that into a big article in a couple of weeks (my workload right now is heavy with manager stuff because I'm a manager now and we're doing ars employee reviews for the next week), but here are the answers to the questions you guys asked. These are NOT direct quotes, just paraphrasing from memory because I don't have time to go in and transcribe 2 hrs of interview and Ars doesn't give us interns:

1) "When is SQ42 shipping?"
HA HA HA HA LOL. But seriously, it'll ship when it's ready. Not committing to anything with a member of the press sitting there recording us.

2) Any "final" reward for 5+ year backers?
Probably, but nothing's finalized for that specifically yet. But probably something, yes.

3) The recent changes to Arena Commander have made it more arcade-y. WTF?
Working as intended—that's the idea. The intent is to have AC (and Star Marine, potentially) be more arcade-like than actual in-game fighter combat.

4) Do any new "big tech roadmap" features need to be added, or is the game just polish & assembly at this point?
Difficult to answer directly because that's like asking what unknowns you've failed to know about, but the feeling right now is that yes, all of the major underlying systems are in place for both SQ42 and SC. But def more left than just polish & assembly.

5) When can we expect a new character trailer?
"Soon" but no specific event picked yet. CR specifically said the next trailer will be "great."

6) Any updated timeline for being able to do better HOTAS/joystick config?
Not a high priority at this stage, but it'll happen.

Also asked about VR and Vulkan; VR will be a priority but isn't at this moment. Vulkan support will come before DX12 support, but CR and Tony both emphasized that DX12 is still on the table. They just plan to prioritize Vulkan first. Wanted to emphasize that rumors they'd abandoned DX12 are incorrect.

(Also-also asked him if he had Mark Hamill's cell phone number, and if so, could we call Mark Hamill and ask about star wars secrets. CR's answers were "Yes" and "No," respectively.)

Meanwhile over on /r/StarCitizen (https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/comments/65pr87/letter_from_the_chairman_the_road_ahead/dgd2uhc/), they're really triggered that /r/StarCitizen_Refunds/ exists

Quote
r/starcitizen_refunds provides unhappy commandos the information they need to get their money back. r/ds offers rationales and a vehicle to express hate a for guy who doesn't matter at all and is not involved with the SC project, yet his statements are archived or something as if he were significant and/or is involved with SC. DS's words are analyzed like cryptography on the Rosetta Stone and assessed for impact on the SC project. In a crazy twist, CR's statements are not similarly archived by the same group who organized r/ds, even though CR is the CEO of the company building SC. CR's comments are neither analyzed with the same scrutiny as DS's, even though CR's words and actions indubitably have a material effect on the SC project.
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: StanTheMan on April 20, 2017, 07:26:48 PM
New referral Programme ...

It is hilarious ....tickets to Shizitencon2017.. for recruiting some poor bastards into the con then getting to pay a shit load of $ to attend Shitizencon2017 to listen to CR lie to you and show a shitty demo after a shitty show.

https://robertsspaceindustries.com/referral-contest

Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: Narrenbart on April 21, 2017, 02:36:33 AM
Basically 2932 Referrals and there are some that got over 1100 on the second day within 24 hours ...
Referrals ... new people that bought the game ...
I guess we are now in the twilight zone ...

 :vince:
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: Narrenbart on April 21, 2017, 02:56:24 AM
And they are hosed now ... the "Hello Kitty" guys won't let slip that copyright infringement unnoticed

Edit: Hello Kitty with a dick ...
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: Narrenbart on April 21, 2017, 03:03:39 AM
The Funding Tracker is not showing up thousands of new purchases ... shouldn't it skyrocket right now?
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: Narrenbart on April 21, 2017, 03:27:40 AM
In Conclusion

Dr. Smart - Please investigate

Edit: Wait ... the referrals don't have to buy the game to be counted as referred? - or do they ....  :psyduck:
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: StanTheMan on April 21, 2017, 05:50:56 AM
Good work.

I am sure it will all become clearer over the next 48 hours or so. :sandance:

I am an experienced salesman.  That Community Manager is an obsequious twat who should never have put himself in this position in this (or any other sales) video!
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: Beexoffel on April 21, 2017, 05:52:48 AM
In Conclusion
  • They ripped of the "Hello Kitty" IP > Copyright infringement
  • Not only that - it looks like it has a dick ...
  • They build a Hello-Kitty-esque clownsmobile Dragonfly > Immersion breaking
  • Thus >90% adult male customers they went for a (stolen) girly theme
  • They advertised a few big Streamer Refferal code in their own Video (yes the Video that is introducing the contest) rendering the contest useless for >99% of the customers
  • The Community is pissed of cause of this - the referral program does more harm than anything else
  • The funding tracker is not reflecting thousands of new referral sales though after <24h some users have over 1000 NEW referrals
  • As expected the Top list is filled with advertised streamers in the CIG Video (that introduced the referral program)
  • Expect many paid advertisement now from customers to push their referrals
  • The contest is only counting NEW referrals so if you have advertised the game now to friends for years you are fucked
  • The lifetime referral price (Ticket to GC) is 2932 referrals which is not achieveable to a non Spamming/Hacking/Blackhat Customer
  • 2932 Referrals is breaking down to ~$600.000 (>$150 Mil funding / ~750.000 backers = ~$200 per customer) for the GC Ticket
  • Want to visit Germany? Get over 2932 Referrals so Refer yourself 2932 times, enjoy the price and get refunded (2932 times) <<< This in particular is one of the worst marketing practices in history and could ruin your ponzi scheme very fast

Dr. Smart - Please investigate

Edit: Wait ... the referrals don't have to buy the game to be counted as referred? - or do they ....  :psyduck:

(http://i.imgur.com/p6MEKW5.gif)
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: dsmart on April 21, 2017, 08:06:52 AM
I am working on an article about this right now. Should be up later this afternoon.
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: Flashwit on April 21, 2017, 09:28:55 AM
In Conclusion
  • They ripped of the "Hello Kitty" IP > Copyright infringement
  • Not only that - it looks like it has a dick ...
  • They build a Hello-Kitty-esque clownsmobile Dragonfly > Immersion breaking
  • Thus >90% adult male customers they went for a (stolen) girly theme
  • They advertised a few big Streamer Refferal code in their own Video (yes the Video that is introducing the contest) rendering the contest useless for >99% of the customers
  • The Community is pissed of cause of this - the referral program does more harm than anything else
  • The funding tracker is not reflecting thousands of new referral sales though after <24h some users have over 1000 NEW referrals
  • As expected the Top list is filled with advertised streamers in the CIG Video (that introduced the referral program)
  • Expect many paid advertisement now from customers to push their referrals
  • The contest is only counting NEW referrals so if you have advertised the game now to friends for years you are fucked
  • The lifetime referral price (Ticket to GC) is 2932 referrals which is not achieveable to a non Spamming/Hacking/Blackhat Customer
  • 2932 Referrals is breaking down to ~$600.000 (>$150 Mil funding / ~750.000 backers = ~$200 per customer) for the GC Ticket
  • Want to visit Germany? Get over 2932 Referrals so Refer yourself 2932 times, enjoy the price and get refunded (2932 times) <<< This in particular is one of the worst marketing practices in history and could ruin your ponzi scheme very fast

Dr. Smart - Please investigate

Edit: Wait ... the referrals don't have to buy the game to be counted as referred? - or do they ....  :psyduck:

I get that we like to hate on Star Citizen around here (for good reason) but this post is absurd.

They absolutely didn't rip off any IP, that's just unarguably false. Obviously it's a reference to Hello Kitty, but god, this is not how copyright infringement works. The likeness is not anywhere close enough to Hello Kitty to matter and clearly 'Sally Star Kitten' is not the same words as 'Hello Kitty'. Not to mention your weird phallic obsession...(what penis???). Immersion breaking? It's a product line that only exists in the game. Yes, it's new lore, but it's part of the Star Citizen lore.

A girly theme? The horror! (Also not stolen). It's just a fun visual variation.

Now of course, the whole contest is ridiculous as it's obviously unwinnable for anyone but streamers who would probably get flown out by CIG for favorable coverage anyway. People should rightly be upset about that. What a garbage contest.
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: dsmart on April 21, 2017, 10:44:01 AM
In Conclusion
  • They ripped of the "Hello Kitty" IP > Copyright infringement
  • Not only that - it looks like it has a dick ...
  • They build a Hello-Kitty-esque clownsmobile Dragonfly > Immersion breaking
  • Thus >90% adult male customers they went for a (stolen) girly theme
  • They advertised a few big Streamer Refferal code in their own Video (yes the Video that is introducing the contest) rendering the contest useless for >99% of the customers
  • The Community is pissed of cause of this - the referral program does more harm than anything else
  • The funding tracker is not reflecting thousands of new referral sales though after <24h some users have over 1000 NEW referrals
  • As expected the Top list is filled with advertised streamers in the CIG Video (that introduced the referral program)
  • Expect many paid advertisement now from customers to push their referrals
  • The contest is only counting NEW referrals so if you have advertised the game now to friends for years you are fucked
  • The lifetime referral price (Ticket to GC) is 2932 referrals which is not achieveable to a non Spamming/Hacking/Blackhat Customer
  • 2932 Referrals is breaking down to ~$600.000 (>$150 Mil funding / ~750.000 backers = ~$200 per customer) for the GC Ticket
  • Want to visit Germany? Get over 2932 Referrals so Refer yourself 2932 times, enjoy the price and get refunded (2932 times) <<< This in particular is one of the worst marketing practices in history and could ruin your ponzi scheme very fast

Dr. Smart - Please investigate

Edit: Wait ... the referrals don't have to buy the game to be counted as referred? - or do they ....  :psyduck:

I get that we like to hate on Star Citizen around here (for good reason) but this post is absurd.

They absolutely didn't rip off any IP, that's just unarguably false. Obviously it's a reference to Hello Kitty, but god, this is not how copyright infringement works. The likeness is not anywhere close enough to Hello Kitty to matter and clearly 'Sally Star Kitten' is not the same words as 'Hello Kitty'. Not to mention your weird phallic obsession...(what penis???). Immersion breaking? It's a product line that only exists in the game. Yes, it's new lore, but it's part of the Star Citizen lore.

A girly theme? The horror! (Also not stolen). It's just a fun visual variation.

Now of course, the whole contest is ridiculous as it's obviously unwinnable for anyone but streamers who would probably get flown out by CIG for favorable coverage anyway. People should rightly be upset about that. What a garbage contest.

If you knew anything about the various IP infringement laws, you'd know how ludicrous your post sounds.
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: dsmart on April 21, 2017, 10:44:29 AM
My latest musing (http://dereksmart.com/forums/topic/star-citizen-musings/#post-5254) is up.
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: StanTheMan on April 21, 2017, 12:14:28 PM
These sad Shitizens are whining like 7 year old girls over kitty.

They are being taken from behind with hot crumpet over and over again and they can't see it.

Read the crap about Marketing being bad and letting down development . .etc...
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: dsmart on April 21, 2017, 12:31:28 PM
Meanwhile, over there (https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/comments/66qrlc/cig_your_marketing_is_too_far_ahead_of_itself/), even as the latest fiasco is in full-on revolt mode.

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C99cOwTXYAIAgS0.jpg)
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: nightfire on April 21, 2017, 01:56:37 PM
Q: "CIG why are you pushing backers to bring in more and more players now when you lack any form of New Player Experience?"

A: "Because it's not about your player experience. This is about our banking experience."
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: StanTheMan on April 21, 2017, 02:30:01 PM
Q: "CIG why are you pushing backers to bring in more and more players now when you lack any form of New Player Experience?"

A: "Because it's not about your player experience. This is about our banking experience."

A Because they wont look beyond the glitzy visuals after a personal recommendation.
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: dsmart on April 22, 2017, 06:41:04 AM
A $27K whale is upset....over the price of a JPEG (https://robertsspaceindustries.com/spectrum/community/SC/forum/3/thread/is-our-memory-so-very-short). I kid you not.

Oh, JPEG sale analysis.

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C-BVVUhWsAAQR4x.jpg)
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: dsmart on April 22, 2017, 06:59:11 AM
Remember the new Star Citizen referrals (the latest scam) I wrote about yesterday (https://www.reddit.com/r/Starcitizen_trades/)? They are now buying/selling them https://www.reddit.com/r/Starcitizen_trades/ (https://www.reddit.com/r/Starcitizen_trades/)
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: StanTheMan on April 22, 2017, 08:55:47 AM
Remember the new Star Citizen referrals (the latest scam) I wrote about yesterday (https://www.reddit.com/r/Starcitizen_trades/)? They are now buying/selling them https://www.reddit.com/r/Starcitizen_trades/ (https://www.reddit.com/r/Starcitizen_trades/)


So how are the people selling referrals making  making $ out of this ?
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: nightfire on April 22, 2017, 09:40:52 AM
A $27K whale is upset....over the price of a JPEG (https://robertsspaceindustries.com/spectrum/community/SC/forum/3/thread/is-our-memory-so-very-short). I kid you not.

https://robertsspaceindustries.com/spectrum/community/SC/forum/3/thread/is-our-memory-so-very-short/108780

Buried in the discussion, this guy eager to leave (@n13L5) seems to be completely unaware of current options and procedures to get a refund.

Maybe someone with a Spectrum account should shout out to him and provide some links?
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: dsmart on April 22, 2017, 12:41:24 PM
More evidence mods on the sub-Reddit either paid by CIG or something. A 4K upvoted thread critical of CIG deleted (https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/comments/66qrlc/cig_your_marketing_is_too_far_ahead_of_itself/). Now backers are wondering why (https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/comments/66xcve/why_was_upoisontacos_post_removed/). So far, no explanation whatsoever - not even by the mods.

UPDATE: It's back now (https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/comments/66xcve/why_was_upoisontacos_post_removed/dgm2upl/).
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: dsmart on April 22, 2017, 01:33:12 PM
LOL!! This is why @wtfosaurus (http://twitter.com/wtfosaurus) is blacklisted by CIG and treated like a Red-headed stepchild

https://clips.twitch.tv/GeniusExuberantConsoleTF2John
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: StupidCitizen on April 22, 2017, 03:57:04 PM
A $27K whale is upset....over the price of a JPEG (https://robertsspaceindustries.com/spectrum/community/SC/forum/3/thread/is-our-memory-so-very-short). I kid you not.

https://robertsspaceindustries.com/spectrum/community/SC/forum/3/thread/is-our-memory-so-very-short/108780

Buried in the discussion, this guy eager to leave (@n13L5) seems to be completely unaware of current options and procedures to get a refund.

Maybe someone with a Spectrum account should shout out to him and provide some links?

And it's done, hope he decides to save himself some trouble and financial loss. (Censored for privacy reasons)

(http://i64.tinypic.com/2cp2p94.png)
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: nightfire on April 22, 2017, 04:18:18 PM
And it's done, hope he decides to save himself some trouble and financial loss. (Censored for privacy reasons)

Saving the 'Verse, one ship at a time!  :siren:
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: dsmart on April 23, 2017, 08:42:20 AM
Star Citizen, Aug 2013. FF to 33:44

Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: dsmart on April 23, 2017, 08:46:02 AM
Remember the new Star Citizen referrals (the latest scam) I wrote about yesterday (https://www.reddit.com/r/Starcitizen_trades/)? They are now buying/selling them https://www.reddit.com/r/Starcitizen_trades/ (https://www.reddit.com/r/Starcitizen_trades/)


So how are the people selling referrals making  making $ out of this ?

Money laundering.

Quote
Here's the scam as I understand it:

1) Advertise that you will give X referrals for ~50% of the price of the accounts, i.e. 10 for $200.

2) Wait until someone sends you the cash. Now buy the accounts with their money plus a bit of your own. Use the person's referral code, they've got what they paid for.

3) You now own 10 accounts that you got at essentially half price. Sell them off at 70-80% normal price on the grey market, or convert to RSI cash and sell that off. This is where you begin to profit.

4) Extra scam step- refund your accounts.

Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: nightfire on April 23, 2017, 09:08:01 AM
Star Citizen, Aug 2013. FF to 33:44

They called themselves out 2 years before you did!  :smugjones:
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: Meowz on April 23, 2017, 09:15:29 AM
I'll just leave this here... https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/comments/670yy2/i_was_trying_to_figure_out_why_the_defender/
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: dsmart on April 23, 2017, 10:39:24 AM
I'll just leave this here... https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/comments/670yy2/i_was_trying_to_figure_out_why_the_defender/

Yeah, I actually have that in the missive I wrote on Friday. (http://dereksmart.com/forums/topic/star-citizen-musings/#post-5254)
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: Ghostmaker on April 23, 2017, 02:51:01 PM
I'll just leave this here... https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/comments/670yy2/i_was_trying_to_figure_out_why_the_defender/

Yeah, I actually have that in the missive I wrote on Friday. (http://dereksmart.com/forums/topic/star-citizen-musings/#post-5254)
I was looking at that.

Of the three issues, probably the least likely is the Banu image, assuming the Banu don't speak like Groot. There's a family resemblance but I wouldn't say they were the same.

Now, the Star Kitty and the Defender? Those look a BIT more derivative.

I remember hearing somewhere that CR does not have a strong sense of creativity -- that the Kilrathi in WC were -blatantly- modeled off the Kzinti, from Niven's Known Space. If so, this is just more of the same.
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: dsmart on April 25, 2017, 05:23:13 AM
New Star Citizen analytics (http://www.dereksmart.com/forum/index.php?topic=53.msg1464#msg1464). Referral drive, so far a dud (about 12K new signups). So far about 100 whales bought the new Banu Defender JPEG; and so far sales have yielded about $500K during the sale period.

Backers still asking CIG to stop recruiting "Please don't recruit anyone... Explanation inside (https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/comments/67dzi1/please_dont_recruit_anyone_explanation_inside/)". Currently the most upvoted thread.

The other one from earlier, thus far has 4318 upvotes is pretty much saying the same thing. "CIG Your Marketing is Too Far Ahead of Itself (https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/comments/66qrlc/cig_your_marketing_is_too_far_ahead_of_itself/)"
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: Flashwit on April 25, 2017, 10:46:12 AM
If you knew anything about the various IP infringement laws, you'd know how ludicrous your post sounds.

Think what you want, I know that it's not ludicrous. You tend to make good points but then take them too far. I have serious doubts that if Sanrio even bothered to bring a case that it would pass a likelihood of confusion test. There are other avenues in a trademark case but I don't see it happening.

But in the end the point here is that it doesn't matter. They have so many other problems that potential (and real that we've seen) cases of trademark infringement are just fluff.
Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: dsmart on April 25, 2017, 12:01:38 PM
New Star Citizen analytics (http://www.dereksmart.com/forum/index.php?topic=53.msg1464#msg1464). Referral drive, so far a dud (about 12K new signups). So far about 100 whales bought the new Banu Defender JPEG; and so far sales have yielded about $500K during the sale period.

Backers still asking CIG to stop recruiting "Please don't recruit anyone... Explanation inside (https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/comments/67dzi1/please_dont_recruit_anyone_explanation_inside/)". Currently the most upvoted thread.

The other one from earlier, thus far has 4318 upvotes is pretty much saying the same thing. "CIG Your Marketing is Too Far Ahead of Itself (https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/comments/66qrlc/cig_your_marketing_is_too_far_ahead_of_itself/)"

Please recruit everyone... Explanation inside (https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/comments/67fnn0/please_recruit_everyone_explanation_inside/dgq1tiv/)

Quote
1) You are counting accounts. There are far fewer backers than accounts made total. We have around a million ships sold, and a huge amount of people have multiple ships.

2) Less than 800 people have played more than a single hour of Battle Royale in the past month. 4000 more played it less than an hour, and the other ~800,000 never even bothered. I guess the game is just so engaging and fun that people are too overwhelmed to even play it.

Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: dsmart on April 25, 2017, 12:03:30 PM
If you knew anything about the various IP infringement laws, you'd know how ludicrous your post sounds.

Think what you want, I know that it's not ludicrous. You tend to make good points but then take them too far. I have serious doubts that if Sanrio even bothered to bring a case that it would pass a likelihood of confusion test. There are other avenues in a trademark case but I don't see it happening.

But in the end the point here is that it doesn't matter. They have so many other problems that potential (and real that we've seen) cases of trademark infringement are just fluff.

You are wrong. It doesn't work that way. As I said before, if you were an IP owner - like me - then you would be familiar with how trademark and copyright infringements work. Aside from the fact that there have been several in the games biz as well.

The general consensus is that Star Kitten looks too much like Hello Kitty. And given the IP owner's penchant for suing even ones that remotely look like it, my guess is once they get wind of it, they're going to get on CIG's case. What happens is up to them; so there is no point in speculating.

Title: Re: Star Citizen - The E.L.E.
Post by: dsmart on April 26, 2017, 04:40:27 PM
1 year ago this month, after getting $112m, croberts announced he was going to deliver an MVP (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vJoHlCc4Y7E&feature=youtu.be&t=1388), instead of a full game.

And it seemed like yesterday when I wrote this (https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php/259596-The-Star-Citizen-Thread-v5?p=4526503&viewfull=1#post4526503) on FDev on 09/20/2016

Quote
I think this was already covered in my original missive (http://"https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php/259596-The-Star-Citizen-Thread-v5?p=4524011&viewfull=1#post4524011"). However, let me elaborate a bit more, seeing as your excellent question requires further clarity.


  • Think of CryEngine3 as paint mix color # 1234
  • You are building a house; and you already know what color you want it to be. That being color # 1234-drywall (note that paint is texture specific)
  • You continue building your house, still intending on using color # 1234-drywall
  • At some point, the owner has decided that the back of the house will use a different kind of wall texture (e.g. drywall vs concrete); so 1234-drywall isn't going to work there
  • The builders, with instructions from the architect, continue with concrete for the back of the house; even as the painters, having bought loads of paint # 1234-drywall, continue painting other parts with it
  • Several months down the road, painters tell the architect that 1234-drywall simply isn't going to work on that concrete back wall
  • Seeing as there is no way to make 1234-drywall work on a texture which would require 1234-concrete, the painters set out to create the closest thing to 1234-concrete as possible, by doing their own mix. Not unlike how you can walk into a paint store and ask them to color match (they have computers for this) as close as possible 1234-concrete, derived from 1234-drywall
  • The end result is that, as drywall (vision 1.0) is totally different from concrete (vision 2.0), the chances of that concrete back wall painting ever matching the drywall used elsewhere, are close to zero
  • So the builder and architect decide to mix their own paint in order to meet with the owner's specification. Along the way, they decide that the best way forward is to probably rip out the concrete wall or plaster drywall over it so that 1234-drywall works. There's your MVP (drywall for the back of the house, instead of concrete).

At the end of the day, as I mentioned in my missive, in order to come up with a custom engine which would make it somewhat possible to build vision 2.0 of the game, they would have to modify CE3 by a whole lot more than 50%. And even so, the underlying CE3 architecture is still going to be there because things like scene management, 64-Bit positioning, networking etc, are all the things they would need to either rip out and replace, or build on top of. And the time it takes for them to be doing all that, could have been spent building a custom engine which specifically does what they want.

It is hard for a none programmer to quite grasp how horrendous it is to go back and modify someone's code; let alone an engine built by several people. Which is why, last year when people were saying that opening F42-GER with ex-CryTek engineers was going to be the magic bullet, most of us who know better, just laughed. It's been almost 18 (?) months since; look at what they have now.

To be clear, I don't envision there ever being a time whereby their CE3 FrankenEngine ever powers vision 2.0 of the game. I simply don't see it happening. For that, would need to modify CE3 by 90% or more. Well, therein lies the rub.

Let the record show that in my very first blog (http://"http://www.dereksmart.org/2015/07/star-citizen-blogs/") back in July 2015, I did say that it would take at least $150 million to build vision 2.0 of the game; assuming they had the tech, talent, time, and money. We're at $124m and I have no reason to believe that they will ever achieve the promised vision 2.0 using that engine; even with $250 million.

And that's the reason why Chris declared the MVP. As I understand it from sources, he has been advised time and time again, that vision 2.0 is simply not possible with what they have. And the best they can hope for is to ship "something" (in this case an MVP, and/or SQ42) in order to buy more time. However, the risk there is that, given their burn rate around all these studios, contractors, overhead etc, there is no guarantee that they are going to keep this charade up for much longer. Once they ship whatever he thinks is an MVP and/or SQ42, it's going to immediately change everything for better or worse.

btw I don't believe that Chris will ever come out and say that any version (e.g. 4.0) is the final product, hence MVP. He has thrown the MVP word out there simply as something that he can fall back to in the event that he is ever accused of never shipping the finished product. Just like he did with Star Marine, where he said that "it's in the PU", he will simply say that he already indicated that they will first ship an MVP, then build on top of it. That notion of "building on top of it" is the part where he gets to justify more time and money in order to bring his vision 2.0 to life. The fact that he made a bunch of promises, while not delivering on even 50% of them even with all the money, is going to get lost in translation along the way. Especially if he ever ships the SQ42 promised; which, as I understand it, is on just as much shaky ground as Star Citizen, seeing as - this point - they still don't even have a complete "game" with everything promised in the stretch goals.

The upcoming CitizenCon is going to be more of the same. Neither Star Citizen nor SQ42 is going to be released this year. That's already a foregone conclusion. Whatever shows up at CitizenCon is going to be of the same smoke and mirrors vein. If they ship any aspect of SQ42, we're hearing from sources that it will be tagged as a "prelude" (most of us call that a demo btw) in order to keep the backers at bay, gauge interest etc. It will succeed as far as the hardcore backers are concerned; but most of us won't care, as it won't be the promised EP1 game.

At the end of the day, none of this will matter. As gamers, all we can do is wait, watch, dissent, speculate, argue, fuss, fight etc until they either ship as promised, or fail completely. Those who are trying to quash dissent are the ones helping to spread the ludicrousness of this whole thing.